Jump to content

Recommended Posts

This is a question I received:

 

One of the major concerns my wife has is "what if the swingers club gets raided while we are there?" Does this happen? What can I tell her?

 

I'm interested to see if anyone has any thoughts on this subject. Has anyone ever been at a club when it's been raided?

Share this post


Link to post

Why would a club be raided? There's no prostitution going on, and any decent club will prohibit drugs, and as far as I know, most clubs don't even serve alcohol.

Share this post


Link to post
Originally posted by NJ Couple:

Why would a club be raided? There's no prostitution going on, and any decent club will prohibit drugs, and as far as I know, most clubs don't even serve alcohol.

 

It has happened on many occasions across the US. Just because you aren't doing anything illegal at the club doesn't mean that some people won't say you ARE. The cops can come in at any time and detain everyone there for whatever reason they come up with "public nudity", "adultery", whatever. Chances are it won't hold but it can cause problems.

 

Other problems that have occurred (as with one club in MI) is the press. At an off-premise club in MI, the local FOX News affiliate managed to sneak into the party with a camera and broadcast what they saw (which was nothing) and tried to tell the public what was going on. This of course led to the members of that club being quite scared to attend again.

 

Some states have actually outlawed swinging, in most states it is illegal indirectly because adultery is illegal. Remember the US is a very prudish country, once you marry you aren't supposed to have sex with other people.

 

This is why house parties are becoming more and more popular again, with advertising only being done via word of mouth.

 

Most clubs do make every effort to make sure that there is no reason for anyone from the outside to be able to come in and cause problems, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. All it takes is an "anonymous" tip from a competing club (yes clubs do compete) to the police for them to come in during a party and cause problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest CyberMWCouple

In many states, there is a law against 'Pandering'. Pandering is defined as: A person who provides the means of helping to satisfy the ignoble ambitions or desires, vices, etc. of another. As you can see, the owners of a club could possibly be held accountable for actions of the members. This is the reason there are Off-premise clubs.

 

Personally, we are not into the club 'scene', for this and other reasons. But I must admit that it is a scary thing to think that you might wind up on TV as a member of a 'Sex Gang'.

 

Does this answer your question?

Share this post


Link to post

Is there a website with ACCURATE information about the various laws, state by state, that concern swing clubs and swinging in general? And what about local ordinances? I can easily imagine a district attorney or sheriff here in rural Central Pennsylvania raiding a club for some cheap publicity.

Share this post


Link to post

Hmmm. Seems to us that it would be best to stay away from the clubs just before elections. That's when this sort of raid usually takes place. :mad: Why do Americans insist on electing the type of people who are more than willing to stoop to power politics? :confused:

Share this post


Link to post

I don't know of any websites with info regarding such laws from state to state. In most cases your club owners would have already done their homework and made sure that whatever they are doing is completely legal.

 

However, even if what they (and you) are doing is completely legal they can still come up with reasons to go after a club. And it does happen all the time.

 

Another issue is the media. I've seen many cases where someone from the media has snuck into a swingers club with a camera and reported on what they saw. That usually tends to freak the club members out and scare them away for a while.

 

I'd say one of your best bets is to stick with a club that is pretty well established (aka been around a while) or one that they are associated with. It seems like sometimes newer club owners/hosts don't quite realize some of the things they do to cause themselves problems. For instance, one club that I know of that started recently actually INVITED someone from a news station to cover their party. Grantd we've seen some fairly impartial articles lately posted here but in general that doesn't happen. That invite led to the police in the area knowing about the party, which had them sitting just down the street from the hall after the parties just waiting to pull people over on their way out. It also scared a lot of the members to the point where the following party or two was pretty dead and those that were there were scared to do anything other than sit at tables and drink.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest <TessnBob>

It is a shame that people even have to worry about going out to a club because it might get raided. We have done a lot of research on this subject and this is what we've found:

* On Premise. Off-Premise and house parties are all susceptible to raids.

* Length of time a club has been established doesn't affect one's chances to be raided.

* Most raids aren't by the ABC or alcohol related.

* Many of the raids happened because other clubs initiated an investigation

* It doesn't matter how a club is set up ALL clubs are possible targets.

* There are only 2 places where "swing clubs" are currently forbidden: Phoenix & Hollywood Fl (both bans are currently being fought in court)

 

That is the bad news... The good news is that there has been many recent victories that should discourage future raids. Club owners are also getting smarter and better information is being shared to help prevent these raids.

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks for the great info Bob & Tess. Interesting that swing clubs are banned in Phoenix considering how many swing clubs that exist there.

Share this post


Link to post

We went to the club that was raided about 4 months after the fact. We did not know at the time what had happened there. We hooked up with a couple there. He worked at FOX broadcasting (not a reporter), and their interest was piqued by the story...just thought I would share that tidbit.

Share this post


Link to post

This was a very old question that never got any response, but with the recent raids that have happened I wanted to bump it up and see if we could get some feedback from anyone who might have been involved in a raid.

Share this post


Link to post

When I ran my swing club in Hawaii, I was still enlisted in the Air Force. Most of my club members (there were 300 couples when I took over... 3,000 couples when I handed the reins over to my successor) were military, but I also had police, politicians, newspaper folks, government folks... people from all walks of life. Luckily, we never faced any form of political harassment.

 

Those clubs that have been raided recently (and especially the one in NYC) have all had more than just legal proceedings on their premises. Although one can argue that it is nearly impossible to keep drugs out of a club, the difference in the NYC club is that the employees were allegedly selling drugs. And there was more than just sex between consenting adults - whereas my club was an on-premise club, I never hired anyone in to perform sex acts of any sort. The NYC club was allegedly involved in some form of prostitution, primarily for the single men that were in attendance.

 

I have not heard of other clubs that were raided recently except for the NYC club from 2 or 3 weeks ago. If there were others, can someone list where they were located? Having worked in management in a swing club and having known dozens and dozens of other club owners or managers, I feel confident in saying that, in 9 of 10 situations, the local law enforcement does not harass swing clubs/parties, so long as they do not get out of hand and do not allow illegal or illicit activities on site.

 

I would bet that most, if not all, of the clubs that have recently been raided were those that allowed illegal/illicit activities to occur on premise. I don't think that you would have seen them raided otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post

Public interests groups, if they hear about something they feel will lower property values or attract "the wrong crowd" will notify local news crews, who are too happy to raid a sexually oriented business for higher ratings. It doesn't even have to be a sex business. I read about a sporting goods store in either Utah or Idaho that closed and moved to a different city because a group complained that they sold thong bikinis and didn't want their granddaughters buying them. Another group, with the help of the police and sheriff's department in Pierce County, tried to open a 15-21 dance club but was shot down by a group that didn't want teenagers congregating in one spot after dark. Its not the same thing, but complaints by enough people are just as powerful as breaking an actual law. It can't put you in jail, but it can send you to court and put you out of business.

Share this post


Link to post

So much for a free country... seems that too many zealots are holding the purse strings to the government... and making the government follow their wishes - no teen gatherings... no sporting goods stores with thong bikinis... no social clubs for consenting adults...

 

My forefathers came to this country in 1699. The first of them landed in Perth Amboy, NJ, about 20-25 miles from where I live now, because Scotland was as bad as the rest of the UK and Europe - bias based on religion, the caste system & other mundane and trivial things. Considering this country was based on freedoms and the ability to choose that which you felt was acceptable to you, one can argue - strongly I might add - that we have become what was once our own worst enemy - censors, bigots, zealots & the like.

 

Maybe it is time to build a new Mayflower...

Share this post


Link to post

We've been in two raids at bdsm events. One in NJ everyone just had to not be nekkid or actually make physical contact with anyone and it was allowed to go on (a 3 day event no less). The other was in Philly where everyone had to leave, they used fire code violations. Both events we were vending at so it kinda stank.

Recently, the ChristNazi's put the kabosh on the Black Rose event planned for Ocean City Md. Basically, the clerk of the liquor board threatened to pull the hotel's liquor license if we were there. Keep in mind we would have had the entire hotel and it would be closed to the public. Since we don't want to harm those who support us we decided to move the event to a friendlier environment. So PG county got our $300,000 + in their economy instead of OC. And the event was a great success.

 

A big plug here. Anyone who cares about their freedoms should check out this site: NCSFreedom - National Coalition for Sexual Freedom - NCSFreedom.org

 

These folks are a great resource when dealing with cops, media, and others.

Share this post


Link to post

Since a lot of swingers turn out to be in Law Enforcement, these raids can get a little awkward, to say the least. Imagine seeing you buddy and his wife naked with another couple during a raid! :eek:

Share this post


Link to post
Originally posted by Vjklander

We've been in two raids at bdsm events...

Both events we were vending at so it kinda stank.

 

Maybe we didn't hear about these incidents either because they were related to the BDSM lifestyle or because local news medias felt it wasn't important. Most likely it was the media that didn't feel it was of any real news-worthiness.

 

And there may be many more incidents where the event doesn't go on because of pulled licenses, failure to get a license or some other issue prior to the event. In those cases, the public simply doesn't know that there was an issue in the first place.

 

Regardless of both previous points though, I don't know if I would include events such as you mentioned, especially the BDSM events, because there WAS vending at the event. Although they do qualify as First Amendment liberties taken from us, I would group them separately from a simple swing club only because a swing club is more socially inclined - people gather to meet and to socialize... and to have sex in some clubs... without it being a service-oriented gathering and they are typically private and by invitation only. To the best of my understanding, the events that you described, especially those having vendors present, are often open to the public and service-oriented - people attend these functions to gather information; purchase equipment, toys, etc.; listen to speakers; attend courses. And they are multi-day events to boot. So I would group them separately from the swing club raids.

 

However, the bottom line is that they are both First Amendment issues - the government doesn't allow its citizens to enjoy themselves as they see fit and too often sticks its nose, and its morals, where they do not belong. I am sure our forefathers did not think this is how government would treat its citizens when they drafted the Bill of Rights and the Constitution!

Share this post


Link to post
Maybe it is time to build a new Mayflower..

 

but where would we go?

 

Maybe it's time we took back what is ours and that we start exposing the

christNazis
and other assorted "zealot" types for what they are....

 

If, as I have often heard, "the pen is mightier than the sword" then we need to start penning more often against those that weild their sword to excess.

 

=================================

 

about raids: I've never been involved in one myself -- I was told once though that using a local eating establishment as my meeting place for potential playmates I had met online would result in my being arrested as a prostitute. When I said "let's go to jail" to the kind officer he said "oh, they won't prosecute you, they'll just hold you for 72 hours and then dismiss it..." hmmmmm "harrassment" or a kind warning....?

Share this post


Link to post
Originally posted by BettyAnnMBSC

about raids: I've never been involved in one myself -- I was told once though that using a local eating establishment as my meeting place for potential playmates I had met online would result in my being arrested as a prostitute.

 

BettyAnn... just one word - WOW!!!!!!!!

 

I can't believe that a cop would say such a thing! I would LOVE to see a cop try and arrest the two of us for talking with a couple or a bi female we had met to discuss swinging.

 

First of all, a prostitution charge must have an offer and an acceptance. Not simply 'Wanna have sex? Yes.' For a prostitution charge to have any teeth what so ever, you need to discuss the act as well as the cost. I don't know about anyone else on this board, but we have never charged anyone a fee to get into bed with us... nor have we been charged.

 

Second, how can a cop, with a straight face, say it is against the law to meet with potential friends in a restaurant? By meeting, you are effectively interviewing them to be friends... no matter how intimate or not you might become. Does this mean that I can no longer bring potential employees to a restaurant because it, too, will be construed as prostitution?

 

Finally, if this is how law enforcement plans on cracking down on swingers, then we, as a group MUST do something about it... the religious right has sadly taken too much control of the nation, from politics down to the retail stores! It is becoming more apparent by the day that the supposed separation of church & state no longer exists... and that the religious right is force-feeding their drivel down the unwitting public's throats!

 

Wow... that story has me VERY fired up & pissed off!!!! Thanks for sharing it though!!

Share this post


Link to post

As a club owner, I am glad to see that some people are outraged that conservative special interest groups have had undue influence. Now however, is the time that you have to do something about it.

 

Most raids fall into 2 categories.

1) lack of licensing or improper zoning

2) drug use/sales

 

In short, clubs get raided because they either break the law or allow their patrons to break the law. Some laws may need to be changed, but generally speaking clubs are founded either as a hobby (and the proper business research is never done) or because "everybody knows sex sells" and someone is trying to make a quick buck without concern for their patrons.

 

To those of you who have seen past posts of mine I apologize for once again getting on this particular soapbox. BUT, please do some research about the legality of the club you choose to patronize. There is no law that says "thou shalt not party" but once someone requires a "donation" or charges admission they are running a business and not holding a party.

Share this post


Link to post

So... hypothetically speaking if I had a party at my home where I served eight to ten munchies (something like; crab dip, shrimp cocktail, and the like), invited 3 or 4 couples and left a "donation cup" (for lack of a better term) on the munchie table. Would I be breaking the law? The "donation would go toward the food expense, and would not be "required at the door". Or would it only be breaking the law if some of the couples had sex?

Share this post


Link to post

No, it would only be against the law if a "donation" was required to gain access, either directly (PARTY ADMISSION: $25.00 p/couple) or indirectly ("Suggested Donation: $25.00 p/couple" and anybody who didn't pony up the scratch was ostracized or asked to leave). If you decided to hold a little party with 3-4 couples (or even 30-40 couples) and you put a "tip jar" on the table, with the clear understanding that donating and the amount to donate was completely voluntary, then you wouldn't be running a business and wouldn't be held to the same standards.

 

Being in Law Enforcement, I have to agree with Remox when they say that police raids come into three separate catagories... (at least in Pennsylvania)

 

1) Zoning Violations / Lack of a business license

2) Illegal substances (Alcohol or Drugs)

3) Prostitution

 

Speaking from experience, raids for reasons #1 and #2 are the most common cause for police involvement in such social gatherings, swinger-orientated or not.

 

Raids for Zoning Violations or a Lack of a Business License are usually initiated by the people who live in the neighborhood who file complaints. Police usually don't initiate these themselves, and are required to follow up on the filed complaints. Raids for Prostitution are usually citizen-initiated as well.

 

Raids for alcohol or drugs are more common. I've been on several noise complaint calls where I've knocked on the door to tell them to turn down the music to a dull roar when I've seen somebody smoking a joint right inside the party or rows of alcoholic beverages lined up on the tables with clearly underage people taking part.

 

In Pennsylvania, I have not been to one Lifestyle club yet that sells alcohol, or allows anybody under 21, and for a good reason. The Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board take their job very seriously, and will raid any establishment who they feel is serving alcohol either improperly or without a license. I've seen PLCB agents raid established, legit, hotels and bars because of a suspected Liquor License Violation. The PLCB do not have anything even resembling a sense of humor.

 

All in all, in my experience, while raids on Lifestyle-orientated clubs are unfortunate, they're not out of proportion with the amount of like actions against other establishments. And, usually, it turns out that there was a violation taking place. Again, this is just in my experience.

Share this post


Link to post

4funfriend... I wouldn't bet on simply asking for donations (vs making it mandatory) would be legal. It depends on the laws of the particular community in which you hold the party and, more importantly, the mood of the arresting officer, prosecutor and judge. Chris & Amelia... bear with me here :) The fact is, if a law enforcement official wants to push prostitution charges, they will find loopholes to do so. Just because you didn't specifically ask for a donation doesn't mean it is not prostitution in the eyes of some LE officials. Again, it really depends on their mood... or personality... when it comes to that grey area.

 

Chris & Amelia... I am sure that you would agree that my comment above, although not in agreement with yours, is more accurate. A cop that is having a bad day or is affected by some other influence (divorce, death, accident, whatever) could be a prick and charge you with prostitution. That cop might have a rough time getting the DA to agree to those charges, but you have to admit that mood & personality does, on occasion, come into play, especially in areas like this that are so grey and lacking in definition. Perhaps another way to explain it... you would charge me with prostitution if I visited a prostitute and, although she and I didn't discuss cost, I knew what I should pay her and I left the money in a 'donation' till on my way out the door. Money still changed hands and a service was rendered. A good lawyer could get me off the charges, but that's another story :)

Share this post


Link to post
First of all, a prostitution charge must have an offer and an acceptance. Not simply 'Wanna have sex? Yes.' For a prostitution charge to have any teeth what so ever, you need to discuss the act as well as the cost.

 

Understand that this happened in a very small back-country South Carolina town (the same town that gave a ticket to a guy on I85 for having a Calvin decal peeing on a Ford)

 

While a formal charge of prostitution might well require some formal evidence -- it is reality that small town law enforcement frequently "enforce" things a little too harshly or flat-out improperly.

 

In this case, my interests in meeting that evening had become a bit more public (met through a well known message board) than it should have...

 

But remember always -- while they may not be able to get a conviction, they can charge you with anything they think they have a reasonable suspicion of.... So the fine officer arrests you (or simply detains you for further questioning) for something and then the nice folks at the State's Attorney office decides not to pursue it... whatcha gonna do?

 

Interestingly, many people think it's perfectly OK to do that in some cases and abhorrent in others....

Share this post


Link to post
Originally posted by BiCoupleNJ

Chris & Amelia... I am sure that you would agree that my comment above, although not in agreement with yours, is more accurate. A cop that is having a bad day or is affected by some other influence (divorce, death, accident, whatever) could be a prick and charge you with prostitution.

I won't disagree with that one bit. While I like to think that I'm an utmost professional, as are most of my colleagues, we are only human, and as such alot of the human variables come into play. If the cop is having a bad day, he/she may take it out on somebody. It's not right or proper, but it does happen.

 

I myself have gone to work feeling pretty cranky, and if you come off as snippy, usually the person you're dealing with may pick up on that and feel that you're directing your anger at them. They, in turn, will get argumentative, which results in the cop going into a defensive posture, which results in the citizen feeling he's being harassed, cause him to go into a combative posture, which results in the cop....etc. etc. etc. It's a vicious circle, which usually results in somebody getting hurt and/or arrested over nothing.

 

 

That cop might have a rough time getting the DA to agree to those charges

Most ADA's won't go along with criminal charges unless he or she feels they have a fairly good chance of conviction. They don't want to screw up their win-lose ratio. ;)

 

 

Perhaps another way to explain it... you would charge me with prostitution if I visited a prostitute and, although she and I didn't discuss cost, I knew what I should pay her and I left the money in a 'donation' till on my way out the door. Money still changed hands and a service was rendered.

And the intent to commit a crime, in this case Prostitution, was there. In many cases, it all comes down to the intent of the actor(s). In the case, you both knew that a set amount of money would be exchanged for sex. As such, the crime of prostitution was committed.

Share this post


Link to post

I got to thinking a little after reading... and rereading... all the posts about this subject this morning. And, being a total analytical type, finding arguments in places that arguments simply don't exist, I came to a conclusion all of us in here have probably had for a long time (I did, too, but I just never commented on it)....

 

The government needs to GET THE F&CK OUT OF OUR LIVES... and let us all enjoy that in which we feel is most appropriate, so long as no one is being hurt or put in harm's way as a result...

 

Neither of us do drugs, but, if people want to smoke pot, legalize it and tax it - end of budget deficit.

 

Neither of us uses prostitutes, but, if people want to have sex with them, legalize and tax it - new budget surplus.

 

The list can go on and on...

 

Remox introduced us all to ILA... I am introducing everyone, including the two of us, to GO GET FOOOL -->

GOvernment GEt The F&ck Out Of Our Lives! :mad:

 

Sound good? Who's with us? Crap... guess we'll have to go it alone :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Originally posted by BiCoupleNJ

Those clubs that have been raided recently (and especially the one in NYC) have all had more than just legal proceedings on their premises. ..the difference in the NYC club is that the employees were allegedly selling drugs...clubs that were raided recently except for the NYC club from 2 or 3 weeks ago.

 

Okay, what did I miss? What club in NYC got raided recently??? Any links available? Sorry for my ignorance and thanks.

Share this post


Link to post

I think I might be able to speak as one of the country's "experts" on this subject and shed a little light on this thread. As the chairman of the ILA I get a phone call on almost every raid that happens at a club around the country. Most of these clubs haven't signed up for the ILA or thought about helping this movement move forward, but the minute they are raided they come running for help (but that is another thread).

 

Here's some facts: In the last 5 years there has been at least 20 raids that I am aware of (sounds like a lot, but in the overall scheme of things, that really isn't a lot considering the number of clubs in existence). The only club charged with prostitution was a club in Canada and they successfully fought and won their battle and recently a new law passed by the Canadian Parliament at least opens the door to have legal "swing" clubs in Canada.

 

Most of the clubs were raided for zoning and the only other reason was for drugs. Let's start with the drugs. In some cases the local law enforcement community has used drugs to get a warrant so they can get access to a club hoping to find lots of drugs or other illegal activity. So far, we haven't seen any clubs successfully prosecuted for this (one case is currently going to trial in Mn, but I am pretty sure those charges will either be dropped or will not lead to a conviction).

 

Besides zoning, the only other case, in recent history, was the Trapeze case in S. Florida. They were charged with running an "obscene" business but the judge threw out the case saying that the only persons offended were the undercover officers making the arrests. This was a great case and set good precedence. 4 of the patrons that were arrested are suing the law enforcement agency and hopefully will get a cash award.

 

Finally, we get to zoning, our biggest threat. Currently, there are no local ordinances in any city where I (or anyone else for that matter) can apply for a permit to open a "swing" club. This is a problem. There are in fact two communities that have outlawed "swing" clubs all together: Phoenix, AZ and Hollywood, Fl. In most cases clubs have closed down or lost the case when fighting zoning ordinances. Mostly because the club owner simply cannot afford to fight the battle. The local law enforcement wins by default. In the case of Phoenix, Club Chameleon has already spent well over $150,000 and is fighting this in 3 different courts and is on their 3rd appeal in the Federal Appellate court. They are vowing to fight their case to the end (Supreme court?) but it is a difficult case. Their club was "raided" last weekend for the 3rd time.

 

Now to clear up the word "raid". What does raid mean? In the case of Phenix, it means that they come with 30 officers and bust in like gangbusters so that they can arrest the owner. It is not illegal in their eyes to attend a "swing" club, just to run one. Sure, it was scary, but the only person they were looking for was the owner. In other cases, like Trapeze, they arrested club members, in others, they photographed everyone in the club to scare and intimidate the members.

 

So what do we do? Shun clubs and head to private house parties? Many of the 20 raids I referred to earlier were at house parties where someone was charging a "donation" but really running a business out of their home. I think these types of parties are actually the highest risk.

 

I think the risk of getting "caught in a raid" is very minimal and should not scare you away from attending clubs, conventions or resorts. We can all huddle in our homes afraid to go outside, meet others and live our lives, but what a high price to pay for our fear.

 

And if you ever find yourself caught in a raid, remain calm, do not say anything, get a lawyer.

Share this post


Link to post

I appreciate you offering your expertise on this subject.

 

However, you are not fully informed in this particular situation. The 'club' that was raided wasn't actually a club. You probably don't recall, but back a number of years, there was a latin 'club' in NYC in which quite a few people died when a person tossed a can of gasoline into the only entrance/exit of a club and lit fire to it and soaked rags. He did this because he wanted to get back at someone that was in the club. It is in this same building that the 'club' that was recently raided was located. It was not a 'club' as you, ILA or I would consider one. Think of it more along the lines of a bar or a speakeasy from the 30s.

 

The people that ran this 'club' are well known in NYC as owners of massage shops that front prostitution rings. Of those brought out during the raid, I believe any were couples. The people were primarily single males and single women, none of which knew each other outside of this establishment.

 

The 'club' in question did have a license to operate as a bar or a lounge. That isn't why it was raided. It was raided specifically for the prostitution ring that was run inside the establishment. The raid happened to also turn up drugs, which is not unusual for its location, clientele or primary function. The owners happened to note that Le Trapeze and other swing oriented clubs weren't raided as often, if at all, as ethnic clubs are in NYC, so they called the place a 'swing' club to divert attention from themselves.

 

Whereas Phoenix was a bonafide swing organization trying to simply enjoy the lifestyle, this place was nothing more than a front for prostitution and drugs. Quite a significant difference.

Share this post


Link to post

Highlights of My Latest Updates:

 

1) Cops Bust Club Chameleon Saturday Night 12/6/03

 

2) AZ Republic Reports charges dismissed and Lawsuit filed against City.

 

1) Cops Bust Club Chameleon Saturday Night 12/6/03

Just when folks are celebrating the dismissal of the running a swing club charges the cops bust Club Chameleon again

 

From Club Chameleon Board:

For those of you still looking for info about last night... my wife and I were there the entire night and I'm happy to share my perspective. A little before 11 a number of Phx police officers - I would say a dozen - came into the club. They immediately spread out through out the club - opening all unlocked doors and shining flashlights. They arrested Kyle within the first few minutes and then basically just stood around until after the Club's lawyer showed up - probably 45 minutes later.

 

During the time they were in the club things were weird but the cops didn't hassle anyone. A few members were freaked and left but the staff did a great job keeping things as calm as possible and believe it or not a great number of people really didn't realize that something was even happening.

 

Myself and a few other members that were up front at the bar had a fairly lengthy discussion with the officers. They said that nobody attending the club was in any trouble at all and that they were not trying to close the club or cause any "trouble". They claimed that the club was violating Phx city ordinances regarding live public sex acts and that they were attempting to arrest Milo/Nancy or the mgmt responsible for this.

 

There was quite an exchange between the officers and members concerning whether there was in fact any violations occurring. The police claimed to have received "reports" of activities in the open areas during the past 2 weeks. They also said that they considered rooms without locks as public areas. As such they felt that people having a good time in the TV room for example would be a violation.

 

When asked specifically what was needed to make the club "conform" they refused to answer other than to say that the ordinance is clear and that members shouldn't worry because it is up to the club management to enforce and comply.

 

There was a little confusion immediately after the police left - nobody was really sure/clear on what was off limits. Initially the staff asked everyone to stay out of the "unlocked" rooms (mass hy, TV, and couples room) but within a few minutes they announced that only the TV room was off limits for the rest of the night.

 

The Couples and Mass H rooms had locks available on the doors so their immediate solution was to lock them and place staff at the doors to handle admission. Other than having to have staff unlock the doors to let you in everything was normal.

 

So for those of you wondering - that's what we experienced last night. The staff did a great job and although it was weird for awhile I would say that everyone still had a good time. I hope you will all join us in continuing to support the club and in sending M&N, Kyle, and the rest of the mgmt team are best wishes

----------

And in the Parking Lost

.........so much for "victory" - at 11pm the police were out in force last night. Two checking license plates in the parking lot. Two at the doorway with pad & pen, two more at the entrance of the parking lot. This city is out of control, the "holier than thou" crowd really needs to get some grip on reality. Phoenix now has it's very own "American Taliban leaders" where freedom of choice no longer has a place - you will be told how to live and act, ENJOY!! How sad.

--------

Another humous report

The most humorous parts of the evening were when Zoe (the worlds sexiest DJ) rounded up all her "cop" songs....and played them one after another....Marley's "I shot the sherrif" got a loud round of applause and yells! And as for nothing (sexual) happening? Well, I personally witnessed one of the raunchiest nights I have seen in ages in Mass Hysteria and the TV was being used and used well....the screens were just showing the previews of the film, but NOBODY cared! My husbands view point was...."this is my club, damnit, and I intend to use it!" So we did! And we will continue to do the same. SEE YOU ALL THIS SATURDAY FOR THE TOY SHOW AND GIRLS ONLY PARTY!!!!!!!

--------

The police seemed to enjoy the standing ovation they received when they were leaving but they didn't seem to care much for Zoe playing "I Shot the Sheriff" or her remark that "If your into handcuffs, we have a real treat for you tonight!" The rest of us liked it alot, though!!!!

 

2) AZ Republic Reports charges dismissed and Lawsuit filed against City but obviously didn't know about the Saturday night Bust at Club C.

To make matters even more confusing (although something here maybe a hint good for sexworkers):

 

Swingers hit back at city

The Arizona Republic Dec. 8, 2003

 

PHOENIX - The relentless battle between a swinger's club and Phoenix officials moved into a new phase Friday with the filing of a $500,000 claim against the city alleging false arrest and malicious prosecution.

 

Milo Fencl and operators of three other establishments were arrested during a Phoenix police operation last year that targeted social clubs where patrons openly engage in sex. Fencl and co-defendants claimed the misdemeanor criminal prosecution violated constitutional rights to free expression and association.

 

Various tangents of the legal conflict have been waged in Phoenix Municipal Court, Maricopa County Superior Court, the Arizona Court of Appeals, the U.S. District Court and the 9th Circuit Court.

 

Last week, city prosecutors dropped charges against Fencl, owner of Club Chameleon, who promptly had attorney Nick Hentoff submit a letter demanding $500,000 in personal damages. The letter paves the way for a lawsuit. Hentoff previously demanded $15 million on behalf of the club owners, and filed a civil complaint that remains open in Superior Court.

 

City officials, who were unavailable Friday, have said the statute was adopted to protect public health and morality. Even among consensual swingers, they argued, sexual acts are not protected by the First Amendment.

 

Fencl is the third defendant to have charges dropped; a fourth pleaded guilty.

 

The city has since modified its law, he added, and Club Chameleon has changed its operation so that sexual intercourse and other consenting acts by patrons occur in private.

 

Dave in Phoenix

Liberated Christians

http://www.libchrist.com

Share this post


Link to post

United We Should Stand

For consenting adult private sex rights

Uniting Swinges, Adult Entertainers and Sexworkers

 

My "sermon" to swingers on the Club Chameleon Board

 

--- L M

> lessons learned by the gay community. They gained respect of lawmakers only one way, by showing power of their numbers by organizing nationally.

 

Amen...but...

 

> Wouldn't it be nice to have the President of the ILA come to Phx and talk to the council and mayor about this problem.

 

Dave in Phoenix said:

I think it would be more effective if a group of members from a Council persons district got together and tried to meet with their "representative".

 

But sarcastically I say "good luck". Based on prior experiences with City Council, they only want to meet with the religious right groups - they sadly are a vastly larger voting block than swingers and share most of the Council's personal beliefs it seems.

 

But I think folks should be contacting their Council reps, trying to meet, express outrage (in a nice way).

 

But as in many cities in the U.S., it seems very difficult to get anything done at the Council or legislative level, and our best friends are often the Courts. So we have to play the game, of restrictive laws, busts and then hope to win in Court fights which is expensive. However as a privacy issue we eventually may start winning in the Courts.

 

It is a slow hard battle against those that wish to protect the "morality" of citizens by force since many of us won't voluntary follow the dominant religious morality beliefs of the culture (Christian/Jew/Mormon). I get especially upset since their "morality" has no biblical basis only sex negative traditions. Whether you are Christian or not, our culture and laws are clearly impacted by the power of the Christian majority.

 

The other smaller glimmer of hope is getting laws changed by referendum. We saw it succeed in Los Angeles where in November 2003, enough signatures were raised to force a vote on 6 foot law for strip clubs where dancers can't come within six feet of a customer while topless or nude. In the face of a referendum the city backed down and mostly rescinded the law.

 

My idea is that various sex positive groups work together including adult entertainment (technically porn isn't prostitution only in California based on the Freeman California Supreme Court decision), swingers, strippers (in Phoenix it is a criminal act for a dancer on stage to touch her own breasts) and the huge sexwork industry of escorts etc which is my main interest, since not finding the right partner for swinging. I bet there are more escort/sexworker clients in the U.S. than swingers! Most just won't admit it.

 

In my view, we should have a united focus on "consenting adult private sex" which should be legal in all of its forms from swinging to sexwork, porn (shot in private) and strippers (private locked rooms). Street prostitution should remain illegal as a public nuisance issue unless in special zones of tolerance. Sexwork and swinging should be done in private including in private swing clubs like Club C for swingers or house/hotel room parties.

 

Polls taken even my Phoenix conservative media after "Operation House Call" seem to support the right of adult sexuality in private, even the City in the AZ Republic article 12/1/03 reporting the Club C story made "in private" the main issue. And we now have a U.S. Supreme Court case supporting the right of privacy for gay sexuality.

 

We should do what we can on the Council and Legislative front. But with groups such as The National Community Foundation based on Scottsdale working hard and fulfilling its stated goal to help 1000 cities across America pass more and more restrictive adult sex laws (to "protect neighborhoods and children"), it is the Courts or a Referendum process that seems more likely to be successful.

 

We have seen the legal system vs lawmakers beginning to show success regarding Operation House Call (the local conservative media even calling it Sheriff Joe's publicity stunt for using 350 officers to arrest 80 private sexworkers and their clients in one of the largest such stings in U.S. history). All charges have been dropped. But like it seems with Milo's they can still be re filed, except the customers were dropped based on entrapment (the cops set up operations in the busted sexworkers homes and lured clients in).

 

The U.S. is virtually the only country in the world where consenting adult private sex is illegal (which is why I enjoy Canada so much. Phoenix I believe is still the only city in the world where swing clubs are illegal. The city's argument against swing clubs has been based on either prostitution or protecting morality theories.

 

Phoenix is also a focal point for other cities across the nation regarding swinging. The morality fight began in Phoenix but it is in all U.S. swingers interest to be concerned what happens in Phoenix. If the religious groups are successful in restrictions on adult sexual freedoms in Phoenix, it will expand to other cities who are watching the legal fight in Phoenix. On the other hand if we can have victory of private rights to sexual freedom over morality laws it will help all sex positive adults in the U.S.

 

In Phoenix it has been mostly Club C under the powerful direction of Milo, Nancy, many Club members and attorney Nick Hentoff that have been the primary fighters for swingers. I like Nicks filing lawsuits against the city for their actions against Milo/Nancy and Club C.

 

Stevi Secret has fought the legal battles and won cases in the adult entertainment industry. She has been in the forefront of successful legal battles in Nevada and other places for adult entertainers. Stevi gave the "unite with swingers, sexworkers, adult entertainers" speech yesterday to her group. She owns a Phoenix strip club which features different porn star each week - Stevi Secrets . The club hosted a great fund raiser last weekend for PAW which helps adult entertainers in trouble. Stevi is a porn star and features with strip acts in major clubs in Las Vegas and San Francisco. We have been working closely together on issues for a number of years. She especially wants me to keep her group informed of the swing clubs issue and supports the common goals of swing clubs and adult entertainment/sexwork.

 

I am giving my "unite" sermon...and included Stevi's to my Private List Community of about 300 subscribers which is about sexwork in Phoenix, but needs to be via private e-mail for its legal protections. I founded the group in 1996.

 

I will also have my "unite sermons" consolidated soon on both libchrist.com and sexwork.com.

 

We have enjoyed some great media support. I have been very pleasantly surprised by the mostly on our side media take and their theme of wasting taxpayers dollars going after private adult sexworkers and swingers vs serious crimes that actually hurt people not morality crimes. The Channel 5 report on cops spending $22,000 on drinking and dancer tips in strip clubs to watch for slightest illegal touch was timely.

 

On with the battle.. the winning the war against morality laws is worth the fight for right of all sex positive people to have the right to consenting adult sexual privacy, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"!

 

Dave in Phoenix

Liberated Christians

Liberated Christians Polyamory, Swing, Biblical, Sybian Cyber Center

Share this post


Link to post

Perhaps raids on swingers clubs could form the basis for the sequel to 'SWAT'?

 

Samuel L Jackson: "Let's nail those deviants!!!"

 

(Assuming he survived the first movie?)

 

;)

Share this post


Link to post

>

 

I never refered to the club in NYC (referred to in your earlier posts). My posting was a geneal answer to those concerned about "raids". I do not have further information on the NYC club, so I cannot comment on it specifically.

 

I think the points I made are still valid, I hope you will agree on this point.

Share this post


Link to post

While reading this thread, I remembered of one raids that happed here in Atlanta over a year ago. What the owner did was absolutely moronic to say the least. They didn't have a permit. No business license. Claimed to be a private club, when anyone could go in with 25 bucks. And to top it off, one of the participants on stage happened to be a 16-y.o. girl :duh:

Share this post


Link to post

The other interesting thing in the Phoenix situation is that the ordinance passed states something to the effect that it is illegal to charge people to come in to your establishment for the purpose of having sex. So why are none of the hotel managers or owners under arrest? The Phoenix other problem in town is that there were several people having parties for a donation. There are a couple of people that have now started to threaten them if they have any more parties. So the cops are raiding the clubs, the house parties are being threatened and the people will no longer have parties. So in effect the local news channel got their way. All of this was started as the result of an "investigative report". No one cared, or even knew about the clubs, until the local news ran out of real stories and had to start creating them.

Share this post


Link to post

I have been involved in the cities process from the beginning. In 1999 with great cooperation from the Scottsdale based National Community Foundation (Christians with goal to help 1000 cities across America pass anti-sex laws to "protect neighborhoods and children) proposed making swing clubs illegal in Phoneix to protect the "health and morals" of citizens. One of their other main arguments was it was prostitution and clubs create crime in their areas. Obviously that made no sense, but neither does protecting neigborhoods and children. You don't need to have arguments that make sense when your fighting on religious moral grounds it seems.

 

There were.. 5 or 6 public hearings. I was at all of them and spoke against the law change (they also made new restrictive laws for strip clubs). Club C was there very well represeneted. I think it was Club C's laywer, although not certain that even had reserached police reports and showed that if you want to fight crime, close all the Circle K stores, not the swing clubs that had very low rates of police calls.

 

About 90% of all the speakers at all the public hearings and the final "big" overflow Council meeting were AGAINST the proposed law changes. The only speakers for the law was the representitive from National Community Foundation and a few "church ladies" I remember one "little old lady" who was so upset with what was going on that she said she would move out of Phoenix if the law did not get passed since she doesn't want to live in such an immoral city that would allow these terrible clubs to operate.

 

At the final city council meeting after the last speaker was heard, their was a motion to pass the law and a "breathingtaking" fast roll call where despite all the overwheliming opposition it was UNANAMOUSLY approved on an EMERGENCY BASIS which means a dire health threat and bypassses the usual waiting period before goes into effect.

 

I have far more details of these events on libchrist.com but that is a summary of what I recall from 1999. The ONLY club in my view that has really been "in there" in the fight to protect your rights as swingers is Milo and Nancy of Club C. The worst club that just wants to run and hide and pretend there is no issue is Guys and Dolls where Robert got very upset with me for my reports since it may discourage business, even though I point out clearly no customer is at risk, only the brave club owners fighting for swingers rights to enjoy these clubs in Phoenix

 

That is how it came about. The National Community Foundation is watching the Phoenix legal fight and I'm sure there are many other cities with its help in writing the Phoenix law are waiting for the Court results in Phoenix to enact the same or modified law based on Phoenix experience in the Courts, in zillions of cities across America.

 

In my view the only practical hope of solving the problem other than hopeing for a favorable Court ruling is a referendum petition to get the issue to the voters. I use to think that was hopeless. But with the recent uproar of most about wasting police resources to fight victimless crimes (swing clubs, private sexworkers, $22,000 spent in drinks and tips at strip clubs), the public may have had enough and might actually vote to get rid of at least the swing club law but it would be a costly hard fight. At least the swing club law is only a Phoeinx issue, vs sexworkers which have both City and State laws that would have to be changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Originally posted by davephx

In my view the only practical hope of solving the problem other than hoping for a favorable Court ruling is a referendum petition to get the issue to the voters. I use to think that was hopeless. But with the recent uproar of most about wasting police resources to fight victimless crimes (swing clubs, private sexworkers, $22,000 spent in drinks and tips at strip clubs), the public may have had enough and might actually vote to get rid of at least the swing club law but it would be a costly hard fight. At least the swing club law is only a Phoeinx issue, vs sexworkers which have both City and State laws that would have to be changed.

 

Dave,

 

As much as I would like to see a public referendum to address this issue in Phoenix as well as nationwide, we have to stop and ask ourselves - Who are we kidding? Something of this nature, no matter how many public citizens are behind it, will never get on a ballot, let alone passed into legislation.

 

Although I very much appreciate your comments and fortitude in trying to get swingers looked upon as the normal people that we all are, we all must know that there are only two places in the US in which supporting legislation like this is not political suicide - San Francisco and Las Vegas. No matter where else in the US one might be, being a politician and supporting any legislation supporting free sexual rights for consenting adults will be frowned upon and will get that politician nothing other than a landslide loss. I hate saying that, but I think that we all know it is true and is the case more often than not.

 

Consider this - how many times have we all heard about town meetings such as the one you referred to where the public outcry is so different from the council's point of view? Many. Then, when the council gives in and allows the referendum on the following election ballot, the referendum doesn't pass because 1) not enough people actually came out to vote, 2) those that did come out to vote weren't the same ones that were at the town meeting and, 3) even those that did come to the meeting to voice a need for a referendum voted against it when their morals were put on the line and they faced accountability. It has happened too many times to count. And it is a sad account of humanity as it clearly indicates most people... not all, but most people are all talk and no action.

 

Frankly, I have to admit that, at the moment, Liz and I fall into the category of those all talk/no action people. There is, however, a valid reason - I don't wish to have my family know that we are swingers. And in an effort to minimize our exposure, we don't get involved in the public eye. Perhaps if my parents lived out of state or were not alive, that would be a different story. But I face my family on a near daily basis and, although I call myself a swinger and feel very strongly about the freedom to express myself in a sexual manner as I see fit - when it does not break other laws such as pandering, prostitution, public lewdness, etc - I would have to be a silent partner simply because I don't wish to alienate my family.

 

Perhaps that's the biggest problem we all face - we cannot be 100% behind a movement to make swinging a choice without legal ramifications until being a swinger is accepted by the general public. And swinging will not be accepted in public until more people like me step out of the shadows and support the cause openly. We are perpetuating our own, perfect Catch-22.

Share this post


Link to post

Originally posted by BiCoupleNJ

 

We are perpetuating our own, perfect Catch-22.

 

While we stand around doing nothing our rights will be taken away by people out to "protect" the community and children.

Share this post


Link to post

BiCoupleNJ

 

Actually a referendum if gets enough valid signitures (I think its about 20,000 for Phoenix), in Az it HAS to go on the ballot. Just a few weeks ago, such a referendum was successful when enough signatures were raised in Los Angeles for the City to reverse the 6 foot rule for strip clubs instead of taking it to the voters.

 

In TV polls here in Phoenix, after Operation House Call, whcih was one of the biggest sting operation in the U.S. against 80 private sexworkers and clients, ran 80% calling it a waste of police resources. The usually very conservative media here has been virtuall 100% raising the issue of using police resources to go after sex in private. The swing club issue is far simplier than the overall sex in private issue.

 

I agree it will not be easy if it goes to a vote. There will be a huge anti sex campaign from both Christian and Morman leaders.

 

Regarding privacy - voting is the ultimate in privacy. No one will know you voted for or against swing clubs or sexworkers.

 

Instead of just sitting back and letter our sexual freedoms be dictated by those in control, many of us feel something needs to be done. Even a failed vote will get the issue discussed and gradally over time I think it will be more and more supported if money can be raised (not simple) to educate the public etc.

 

The only other hope is in the Courts on privacy issues.

 

I agree no way there is going to be anything favorable from Council on swing clubes or State Legislature on sexwork issue. Too much of a huge Huge Morman voting blocking at the State level and very conservative Phoenix City Council.

Share this post


Link to post
Originally posted by davephx

Actually a referendum if gets enough valid signitures (I think its about 20,000 for Phoenix), in Az it HAS to go on the ballot.

...

Regarding privacy - voting is the ultimate in privacy. No one will know you voted for or against swing clubs or sexworkers.

 

Originally posted by bill&sabrina

While we stand around doing nothing our rights will be taken away by people out to "protect" the community and children.

 

Dave, you are correct and that point had not crossed my mind when I left my last message. A petition with sufficient votes will get a referendum on the ballot.

 

But I quoted your point regarding voting being the ultimate privacy for a very specific reason - you cannot get to that level of security and privacy... without opening yourself up to the public eye by signing the petition. Again, a Catch-22 that most people would avoid as the last thing they want to see is their name made public because they signed a petition supporting swingers. Despite the fundamental desire to keep the cops out of the sex business arena for most people and the desire to live a life free from harassment for swingers, when putting pen to paper, I still contend that many will find a reason to not sign. I have seen it happen before.

 

And to Bill's comment... actually to EVERYONE...

 

We can all help ourselves to a degree by voting out those that show a morally superior attitude at election time. For those individuals in office that feel a particular right isn't morally upstanding, perhaps a letter writing campaign or, better yet, a bussing campaign - gather a large group of people opposed to the right being taken from you and make every effort to go to every single town meeting. And invite the press, too, because nothing will get done if it isn't picked up by the media. Or take out a large scale ad showing your displeasure with the potential loss of a right.

 

You are correct in inferring that we should not sit idly by, but I have seen the consequences - my brother has spoken out for gay rights for years. He has received over 400 traffic tickets and had once been charged with endangering the welfare of a child, along with many other harassments, all because of his opinion and his fortitude in speaking out. He's not broken the law other than going 5-10 mph over the speed limit regularly, but that is a very common law broken by thousands of people a day. Yet the police in several areas near us focus on him quite regularly. And it is because of situations like this that most - not all, but most people would rather stay idle and not reveal their name nor their opinion in the public eye.

 

Even when I ran my swingers newsletter years ago, the post office was tracing mail coming to my business. It didn't stop me as I thought it was funny that they did that, but it was a harassment none the less.

 

I am simply stepping into the role of devil's advocate here. And, although the points of view brought forth by many people on this thread are well thought out and solidly supported, I fear the reality is, when it comes down to brass tacks, you may very well find yourself standing alone against those that play 'morality police'. It is sad, but I fear it is true.

 

Time to step down... soapbox

Share this post


Link to post

To Davephx and BiCoupleNJ...I haven't contributed an iota to this thread because ya'll are talking so far beyond my range of thought, but just wanted to say...ya'll are making some excellent and enlightening points. Keep up the good work! Most enjoyable and informative reading. Thanks - EBF :)

Share this post


Link to post

Went to the VELVET SWING in Van Nuys, and talked to John the proprietor.

 

He had some wild stories from 2001. A militant evangelical local church started to protest the number of cars and visitors-'appearing' at this quaint Single Family Residence in Van Nuys. This is a city, that can be great-but 5 blocks away it can be a gang war zone. But there are good people there too. There are also a few demented, sadistic and 'nosy' (not noisy) types on the street as well.

 

John's club in the past became very popular. A bit too popular. It was attracting attention. Plus, John was charging a modest donation fee at the door-which is totally illegal-and he has since stopped charging. He learned how mean the cops could be, (When they are on a "Mission".) They would kick in the front door-and throw drugs in the lobby-for entrapment. Welcome to LA. The joke was everyone kept fucking and ignored the cops (in hidden lofts etc) because REALLY this is just a private party, ok? Keyword private.

Share this post


Link to post
Originally posted by MikePulse

Went to the VELVET SWING in Van Nuys, and talked to John the proprietor.

...

John was charging a modest donation fee at the door-which is totally illegal-and he has since stopped charging.

...

He learned how mean the cops could be, (When they are on a "Mission".) They would kick in the front door-and throw drugs in the lobby-for entrapment.

...

this is just a private party, ok? Keyword private.

 

Accepting donations at the door is NOT illegal. It is only construed to be illegal by authorities to further their moral pursuits. The issue with accepting a donation, as mentioned earlier in this thread, is that it can be construed as a payment for sex, which CAN result in a prostitution or pandering charge. But it is not, in it's most basic sense, illegal. My ex and I used that to our advantage - when someone that came into the club showed an interest in either me or my ex, if we were not interested, we'd simply explain it away as being considered prostitution because we took their entrance fee which, twisted in our favor, meant we would be receiving money for sex. We didn't use it often, but it was handy when we did :)

 

This issue does, however, play directly into your comment about cops - although MANY... nay MOST... cops are not corrupt, there are some out there that, as you mention, can and will do almost anything to arrest someone like your friend John. I have seen it many times in the past. And knowing that John accepted money to allow members entry, they could construe that as a payment for sexual services, no matter how outlandish and untrue that really might be.

 

Something that was odd about Hawaii - when I ran my swing club in Honolulu, the police never once bothered us. We called them several times for various reasons, one being a hit & run accident that left a club member's car totaled. Although no one was in a sexual way when the police arrived, they could plainly see that we were not your normal, mainstream club as people were milling about in slinky clothing - some even topless or nude - and they ignored it completely. I don't know why, but they did. If only all police across the US were as open-minded and acceptable of swingers like the Hawaii force was back then, we'd never be having this discussion.

 

One more comment - you said that the party was private. Privacy is one of those terms that can be interpreted in many ways by authorities when it comes to a desire to arrest someone. In fact, I'd go so far as to say there is no such thing as privacy if law enforcement is on a mission with moral underpinnings!

Share this post


Link to post

As someone who works for an attorney & a soon to be law student, my experience with law enforcement (swinging or not) is that if they want to get you for something they will find loopholes to charge you with something. I'm not saying anything bad about law enforcement, there are good cops & bad cops. Although, sadly it seems that you seem to find a lot more bad ones vs. good ones. As long as there is something going on in a community, whatever it is, that is controversial there will be people trying to "take it down."

Share this post


Link to post

Sorry, I forgot to add something to my last post. As to what FrenchConx said in one of posts about what to do in a raid, don't say anything & get a lawyer. That is 100% true! I work for a lawyer, & about 99% of the crap we have to clean up for someone they created themselves b/c they opened their mouths. Police will try to get you to talk & make you think that you are helping yourself, but you are not. If police make a deal with someone they get it in writing & with an attorney present. So I would say the most important thing to do if involved with a raid, NEVER SAY ANYTHING! ALWAYS ASK FOR AN ATTORNEY TO BE PRESENT.

Share this post


Link to post
Originally posted by HotCoupleGnS

... the most important thing to do if involved with a raid, NEVER SAY ANYTHING! ALWAYS ASK FOR AN ATTORNEY TO BE PRESENT.

 

Very good advice, GnS. But it does certainly paint a sad picture of society that we would have to consider retaining an attorney at all for simply exercising our right to enjoy ourselves in the company of other consenting adults that have gathered for the same reasons we have. Sad indeed!

Share this post


Link to post

I am a police officer and I don't understand the laws about swinging either. One Saturday night we decided to meet another couple at their home in Alabama for some adult fun. The next morning there was a story about a social that got raided not far away. During the raid there were two arrest. One for open container because a girl was in the hotel halls with an open beer. The other was a girl that had on a sheer top that exposed her nipples. The other guy and I are both cops and didn't understand the basis for the raid.

 

Most of the clubs around Atlanta are on-premise and I know of one that even hires off-duty officer for security. They also offer free membership to anyone turning in illegal drug users.

Share this post


Link to post
I am a police officer and I don't understand the laws about swinging either. One Saturday night we decided to meet another couple at their home in Alabama for some adult fun. The next morning there was a story about a social that got raided not far away. During the raid there were two arrest. One for open container because a girl was in the hotel halls with an open beer. The other was a girl that had on a sheer top that exposed her nipples. The other guy and I are both cops and didn't understand the basis for the raid.

 

Most of the clubs around Atlanta are on-premise and I know of one that even hires off-duty officer for security. They also offer free membership to anyone turning in illegal drug users.

 

 

Was that Decatur a few years ago?

 

That is one thing you really have to watch out for. One of the main socials here JUST FINALLY became legal in the drinking sense. The social was held in a dry county but was BYOB. Talking to the owner he said he had actually talked to local police and they did know what was going on and basically as long as things stayed in the social hall there was nothing to worry about. But it's still a bit scary to think that as risky as the idea of swinging already is that they could end up getting raided on something as simple as alcohol.

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Similar Content

    • By MenPoundMyWife
      My wife and I have been married for over 10 years. She is 5'4, about 130lbs, 34F, and very fit. 
       
      We dated for couple of years before getting married. From the very beginning, she was the most sexual woman I had ever met. Soon after we started dating, she started to push me to talk about her former lovers. Slowly, I started to get turned on by the stories and became more and more curious about her past sexual experiences with boyfriends before me. Eventually, we got married, and few years later, she started to throw hints of wanting to raise her score. I quickly got on board and we started to regularly talk about how other men would fuck her and so forth.
       
      Finally, during a trip to Vegas, we decided to visit a sex club and she was very excited, although a little nervous. She wore a new tight black dress with red lingerie underneath. We got to the club and just hung out. She was very uneasy and she said she had never been to a place like this. About 30 minutes in, we were starting to talk about leaving, she suddenly pointed at a slightly older guy and said: "Go bring him here." My dick was hard as a rock. I walked up to the guy and asked if he is interested in my wife, he had been staring at her the entire time. He quickly smiled and said, "Oh yes, let's go."
       
      They shook hands, introduced themselves and we all decided to find the area with beds and more privacy (so to speak). We found a room downstairs that was only enclosed by a curtain. She told me to go and get condoms so she can get to know the guy for a few minutes. When I came back, they were just talking, slowly, she walked up to me and started kissing me. Once I let go, I gestured to the guy to go ahead; he quickly moved in on her. They started making out, he started kissing her all over the place, slowly, she dropped backwards on bed and pulled him on top of herself. 
       
      He lowered her dress and started sucking her big tits. She asked me to join in. We each had a tit in our mouth and we were both fingering her pussy at the same time. Slowly, I moved down and started eating her pussy. She is always fully waxed like a porn star. As soon as I stopped eating her pussy as she came, he went down and started eating it. Slowly, I moved back up and she took my dick in her mouth. 
       
      To our surprise, a crowd gathered and four other men wanted to fuck her. She shook her head but they all watched her get pounded. 
       
      The guy that went in there with us, quickly got naked and tugged at her red thong. She took it off and handed it to me. This whole time, she was playing with my dick, it's about 5.5". The guy was much larger, about 7". She looked at it and winked at me. She told him she likes it rough.
       
      He had it fully up and moved close to her pussy. She stared into my eyes, grabbed his dick and guided it to rub her pussy. He took his clue and shoved it in. She reminded him to not be gentle. He obliged and fucked her like a whore. She begged for more by saying, "Oh yeah, fuck me, fuck me hard...look babe, he is fucking me so good, he is so big, look, he is fucking your wife right in front of you....oh yeah, fuck me." About four other guys and a couple were now watching her get fucked. I asked her if I should tell them to leave, she said no, she likes it. She slowly turned to them so they can get the full view of a dick in her pussy while she was playing with mine. 
       
      Once the guy got done, she said, "Okay honey, this was awesome," and kissed me multiple times thanking me for a great experience. She said she wanted to stay for a few before we walked out. She wanted to walk around and be noticed as the woman who had just been fucked, since rest of the crowd was just hanging out.
       
      We cannot wait to do it again.  
       
    • By Wendans
      My fantasy has always been to watch my wife get fucked by another man. We have been with another woman before which is a whole story in itself that I’ll tell you about later.
       
      One night several years ago my wife and I had gone to a club. Not your ordinary club, but a good club for swingers and singles. The night had started out rather slow and we were not finding any action that I had hoped. My wife knows what she wants and that is what we go with. And that night we found what she wanted and it was such a great experience she knew she wanted to do it again. She had gotten fucked by a black guy and she had enjoyed it. So, when we got the chance, she wanted to try it again.
       
      Being at a swinger’s club isn’t really her thing, but fucking in front of people or listening to them fuck is a big turn-on for her. Since we don’t live close to any swingers’ clubs or anything of that nature, we don’t get many opportunities to do anything like this.
       
      A couple of years ago we got a chance to go to another club. Yes, one of those clubs. We were looking for a little fun and hoping to find something as good as the last time we were out. We talked to many people as the night went on and my wife was trying to figure out what we were going to be doing to have fun that night. There was a hot blonde that was interested in us and kept on grabbing my cock which my wife was loving because this was getting her going. My wife and I decided that this was not what we had in mind for tonight, so we just kind of let that slide and we went on to pursue something else. She said she would know it when she saw it.
       
      My wife had put a couple of drinks down and was feeling pretty good now. She was a little more daring and said she wanted to go change outfits like she did when we had been to a club previously. We had brought the very same sexy outfit that was see through, so she went and changed into it. When she came back out, there was not one guy's eyes on anyone but her. Even the women were looking on in awe. She is a beautiful woman that knows how to control a room.
       
      One guy came up to me and told me he was jealous. He said he would do anything to get to fuck my wife, but she just didn’t feel right with him, I guess. As we were standing around, in came this well-built younger black guy and I think she almost came right there. The look on her face was almost mind blowing. She got this horny grin and told me she was ready to start our night. As he walked by her, she gave him this dirty smile and took her hand and rubbed down by her cunt. He stopped walking and came over to her and asked if he could help her with anything. She just smiled and said that I think you already know what you can do. They danced around a little bit, but I could tell she couldn’t take it anymore, so she quickly unzipped his pants and took out his cock and grabbed it and lead him into another room like a dog on a leash.
       
      I stayed back a couple of minutes to give them some time to get to know each other. When I did finally get to the other room, they had already undressed and she was sucking his cock. It was larger than mine. Not much longer, but thicker. I could tell she liked it.
       
      My wife had picked a room where people would be able to watch if they wanted to. I stayed back in the wings and was kind of hidden so she really didn’t know I was even there.  As I watched my wife in action, I could tell she was enjoying every second of this guy’s cock. She was sucking it like there was no tomorrow.
       
      Now it was his turn to return the favor. He got his face down to her pussy and started licking like it was candy. She was turning red and I could tell she was already about to cum. She was squirming and shaking and he was getting her cunt all ready for his big shaft. But before he fucked her, he now spread her legs out and started fingering her pussy to the point that she started squirting fluids all over the sheet they were laying on. It was like the flood gates had opened up and all the juices were flowing.
       
      She finally had all she could take because I’m sure she had cum multiple times already and I could tell she just wanted to have him inside her. I heard her say to give me your big, black cock. He asked her if she wanted him to put on a condom and she told him no, she wanted to feel him inside her cunt.
       
      He took her and spread her legs wide and slowly inserted his bbc into her tight cunt. She told him to go slowly because she said it was so big that she needed to get used to it. After several minutes of the slow movement, she said she needed him to fuck her harder so he started to go full penetration into her dripping wet cunt. She was telling him how good his cock felt, and how she loved fucking him.
       
      They switched positions multiple times with her sitting on top of his cock and riding him like she has never ridden before. My wife took his whole cock inside of her as deeply as she could, rubbing back and forth and cumming time and time again.
       
      They finally switched back to missionary style and were fucking hard when I heard her say to him, she wanted him to cum in her pussy. She said she wanted to feel his cum drip out of her pussy all night long. When he heard her say that, he started to pick up the pace and finally started moaning and said he was about to cum. My wife was now cumming herself and as he shot his load inside of her, she started squirming and shaking with every pulse of his exploding cock. Her body was red from all of her orgasms, and I could tell she was getting worn out. They had gone for almost 40 minutes of nonstop action. Not to mention that all the other people that had gathered around to watch started going to other parts of the place as they had gotten a show that they would remember forever.
       
      When he pulled his now soft cock out of my wife, I could see the cum dripping down her ass. She was getting what she wanted, I guess. She would be able to feel his cum dripping out of her the rest of the night. But I didn’t realize that she was not done yet. She wanted more. My wife took his cock and started sucking on it again. I guess he was young enough that almost instantly he got hard and she took his cock and guided it into her cunt and said she needed more of his cum. He fucked her for another 10 minutes until he exploded with more cum inside my wife’s pussy again. Again, as I watched the cum drip down her ass, she was getting what she wanted. She was going to feel this the rest of the night.
       
      They both started cleaning up a little and I slowly came out of the crowd that had gathered. She saw me and gave me that dirty little smile she sometimes gets. My wife asked me if I had enjoyed her show. She said she needed to have a little more cum in her pussy tonight and she now wanted mine. Her new little friend just kind of sat back in the corner and decided to watch us.
       
      I knew I wouldn’t last long because I had almost cum multiple times just watching her. With some of the crowd still watching I got undressed, and slid my wet with pre-cum cock into my wife’s cum-loaded pussy. I fucked her until she started cumming. Her cunt convulsed so hard that it squeezed my cock and made me start to cum. I came in her pussy, mixing my cum with my wife’s new fuck buddies cum. I pulled my cock out and watched it all slowly slide down her ass. She got up and went over to our young fuck buddy and she gave him a long passionate kiss and said thank you for such a great time. He gave her one last little finger fucking and handed her a card of his if we were ever in the area again.
       
      He left after he got dressed and we got cleaned up and went out to the main room. I had multiple people including women and even the bartender say that my wife was one of the women they would like to fuck if they ever got a chance after seeing her in action. I guess I’m the lucky one here.
       
      Later that night when we were driving to our resort, she slipped her hand down pants and put her fingers in her pussy. She brought them out and rubbed them on my face. She smiled and said we gotta do this again sometime as we pulled into the parking lot to call it a night.
       
      And what a night it was.
    • By SPaige24
      My husband and I have been together for almost 10 years. I have always been bi- curious, but kept it as secret until the last month. Little did I know that he had a small feeling (thanks to a few drunk nights with my friend). Our marriage is very strong, and we are very opened with each other. I told him that I wanted to have a have sexual encounter with another female. He is on board, and we even talked about a MFM threesome as well.
       
      Here is my issue... How do I find someone? That friend is no longer a friend, I can't do dating apps because of my job, and I personally don't want someone we know. I have looked into Swinger Clubs, and I realize that finding a bisexual/lesbian female who is single is hard. We are opened to a couple if need be. I just want my husband there and or involved.
       
      My question is... What is it like going to a swingers club? Will there be people our age (27-30), are "predators" real, and how do I find a club? We are located in Washington, PA.
    • By AdamGunn2
      It was a fairly typical night at D.J.s Island, an early autumn evening. Mary and I hadn’t set anything up in advance, we’d decided to go almost at the last moment. From the second we entered the door our radar was beaming across the club, searching for a couple that might be searching for what we were also interested in - an enjoyable tryst.
       
      Mary took a few minutes to change into what she called a ‘trolling outfit.’ As I remember, that night it was a black babydoll with a loose bodice, thong, low heels. Many men admired her legs as I checked the forty or so women, many as scantily clad as my wife. None of our regular playmates seemed to be in attendance that evening, but we had our customs, we weren’t concerned. Perhaps an hour and a half later, I sat at a table next to the dance floor, Mary was on her feet, on the parquet, moving her body, seeing if anyone would move in. A slow sequence of men approached her, danced with her. Some would take liberties such as moving their hands under her garment, feeling the small of her back, perhaps place their palm on the roundness of her ass.
       
      I’d seen this many times before, I waited for one of two reactions.
       
      The first was that she’d spin away from the man; it signified she wasn’t interested in what he had to offer.
       
      The second was that she’d get closer, I’d watch her whisper in his ear. I knew the question, “Where’s your wife?” Some of them would shake their heads, they were attending as one of the few single men the club allowed, and when they received Mary’s response, they’d move away - that’s not what we were looking for at the moment.
       
      But the man might indicate where his wife was dancing a few feet away. When this kind of thing happened, Mary would glance to me and give our special signal - she’d put one hand on the back of her head, one on her stomach. When I got the cue, I’d come out, we’d dance as a foursome.
       
      As I approached, a man grasped the elbow of a tall attractive lady who was more modestly dressed, at least for the club. There was no conversation on the dance floor, the heavy volume of music and the thumping of the bass wouldn’t allow for speech. But I could tell the woman was interested in me, the four of us paired off and I often found myself facing this vixen. It was obvious they were as interested in us as I was in them, I could tell by the way Mary was rubbing against the man that she felt the same.
       
      After a couple of songs, Mary led the way off the floor, holding his hand, leading us off into a corner away from the speakers. As we sat, the man said, “I’m Ed, this is my wife, Marilyn.”
       
      Marilyn and I softly shook hands, I believe she raised the hem of her skirt to give me a view of her upper thighs. Ed had no problem seeing Mary’s legs, or where they met - she was sitting so that the babydoll was gathered to her side, leaning forward so her globes were exposed to his view.
       
      “Do you come here often?” Ed asked.
       
      “Every few weeks,” I responded, “you?”
       
      “This is our first time here.” Mary gave him a look that asked for further info. “We’re just starting this,” he admitted.
       
      Marilyn picked it up. “We’ve only had one time with a couple of friends. We liked it, heard about this place, decided to see if we could get into more trouble.”
       
      “Trouble’s our middle name,” I joked.
       
      Our conversation continued, where do you live, what movies have you seen lately, etc. It was a screen, of course, we were all calculating if the four of us would be pleasurable bedmates. I paid my attention to Marilyn, my wife had told me numerous times not to worry about her, she can take care of herself. My hand found Marilyn’s knee, she smiled at me, encouraged me to reach a tad higher. We bent towards each other, our mouths met.
       
      Marilyn opened her lips to me, the kiss was ardent, her mouth moist. She licked at my upper lip, her hand fondled the back of my neck. Our tongues clashed, promising cupidity, mimicking what I presumed our bodies might be doing in a few scant moments.
       
      We broke for a moment, Marilyn invited, “Would you guys want to go to one of the rooms?”
       
      I, of course, was all for it, but then I heard Mary. “Uh, not right now. But thanks.”
       
      We’ve always had the guideline that if one person doesn’t want to do something, she speaks for both of us. Regretfully, I pecked at Marilyn’s lips a last time, we stood, went separate ways.
       
      “You’re not upset, are you?” Mary asked me.
       
      “Of course not, not at all. You’re not in the mood?”
       
      “Oh, I’m in the mood all right, just not with Ed.”
       
      “Something wrong with him?” I asked.
       
      “I tried to get him interested,” Mary revealed, “but his kiss was a little cold, indifferent. I put my hand on his leg, he was too busy watching you and Marilyn, he never responded. My guess is that if we went into a room, he’d be watching you two, I’m not even sure he’d get hard for me.” It was a reasonable thought, it had happened to us a couple times before. “Hope you don’t mind, bet she’d have been a firecracker.”
       
      “Maybe. But you’re a firecracker too.”
       
      We headed back to the dance floor, in search of another couple.
×
×
  • Create New...