Cheating equals Swinging? Think again!

[robnbarb 40]

I would have to say, in the wrong people, yes swinging is a gateway activity. I have heard of people who only want the "extra sex" with other people rather than sharing joy with thier partner. The biggest sign of this, IMO, is those who so hardcore refuse to let thier partner share with anyone else, but they can have as many partners as they like. this is probably most prevelant in FMF encounters, but not nessessarly.

 

This activity is what the couple makes of it IMO, and you have to find couples/singles that share your goals as well (no matter what they maybe). To be perfectly honest a dialouge of people from different approches is a very healthy thing and allows for growth.

 

Back to topic, sorry.

 

Cheaters-Some drag thier SO's kicking and screaming into the lifestyle just cause they want the new partners. Reasons would be as varried as why couples who are stable swing. But I would imagine this never really works out, since most of the time the other will just walk away and the first one is left to figure things out. From here I think comes the most common form of cheating male/female.

 

Also the "easy target" is another thought. "The wives are sluts." is what I think the thoughts of many of these men are (Note: I say men since it seems those are more of the topic, at least they are more vocal). They thinkif they just approch as a single guy, they are in like flynn (to coin a phase). However, the slightest resistance reveals their pushyness and things backfire. They have no clue why since the girl should be easier than a hooker (and he don't got to pay. Also I think this is what less sensitive single males think as well).

 

A lack of respect is the core of all this IMO. Its frustrating and infuriating to deal with, but easy to spot.

 

If I have repeated anything I appologize, I only read parts of the thread since I am in a hurry to work.

[JnCC 24]

I never thought that others would be drawn to the lifestyle for the reasons that they may drawn to cheating.

 

What were your reasons JnCC, if you don't mind telling.

Basically, and I'm gonna give you the REAL short answer here...it was because I had no interest in having sex with JUST ONE PERSON for the rest of my life. Could I LOVE one person? Certainly. The right person, that is, although as I get older the chances that I'm going to meet "the right one" seem to be fading. But could I love anybody enough that after 5 years of having sex with just her, I would pass on the opportunity to nail the recently-divorced accounts payable clerk with the nice tits from Sector 4G at the office Christmas party? Nahhhh, probably not.

 

Hey, I'm a man. I enjoy sex, and part of that enjoyment comes from having a variety of partners to enjoy it with. And although I certainly have my "favorites," I enjoy a change of pace from time to time as well. It's the same reason I dine at a variety of different restaurants, ride several motorcycles, and own more than one suit.

 

And out of curiosity, did you swap in different rooms, or did you play together always?

We were basically same-room swingers almost until the end. If we knew somebody quite well, we might separate for the sake of convenience (too many people on the bed, in the room, etc.) but we were pretty cognizant of what the other was doing and who they were with at all times. Towards the end we started relaxing the rules a bit...she wasn't always with the husband of who I was with, for example...and we flirted with the possibility of permiting a single. But whatever we did, it was always at the same party, no secrets, no locked doors, etc. We usually had a "full debrief" in the morning, followed by hot sex in the afternoon after a party. In fact, the first clue I had that we were having a problem in our marriage was when we attended a party and didn't have hot monkey-sex the morning afterwords.

 

Swinging really intensified and redefined our primary relationship. I never yielded to the urge to "fuck around" on my wife, because when the mood struck, we could fuck around together. I travel a lot in my line of work, and I have almost unlimited opportunites to cheat. To this day, I can not believe what a Boy Scout I was while on the road! Much more reserved than many of the married "vanilla" husbands I travel with.

 

BTW...while I may seem to be defending cheaters or cheating in here, I DO NOT think it's a viable alternative to a healthy relationship, or a particularly "soul-enriching" way to live. I consider having an "affair" to be somewhat like using an ejection seat. It's NEVER a 'pleasant' experience, and NEVER an action to be taken lightly, but it's often better than the alternative. Parachuting from a disabled airplane brings on it's own set of problems and it's own set of dangers, not the least of which is that your parachute may not open before you hit the ground or before the airplane circles back around and hits you. (Most likely right in the ass...)

 

If you take the analogy a little further, you might say that if a person bails out once, it's OK. It might not be his fault that he or she is in a relationship that's "crashing." But if they find themselves "bailing out" every time they take to the air? Hmmmm.....maybe it's because they're not a very good pilot, or they're not checking their plane very well before take-off.

[Vespertine 31]

I had no interest in having sex with JUST ONE PERSON for the rest of my life. Could I LOVE one person? Certainly.

 

.... It's the same reason I dine at a variety of different restaurants, ride several motorcycles, and own more than one suit.

Same reasons why I like to swing. Except I don't ride motorcycles or own a suit.

[curiousagain 326]

If you take the analogy a little further, you might say that if a person bails out once, it's OK. It might not be his fault that he or she is in a relationship that's "crashing." But if they find themselves "bailing out" every time they take to the air? Hmmmm.....maybe it's because they're not a very good pilot, or they're not checking their plane very well before take-off.

 

Have to admit, food for thought there. But, then again, real men go down with the plane, fighting to save it all the way. Then again, if a wing is gone or there is fire and smoke billowing out of the engine, anybody with any brains and a chute will eject.

 

Has anybody ever seen so many analogys, metaphors, and such in one thread???

[northindycpl 32]

Maybe with all of the metaphors and analogies we are beating around the bush at we we all really want to say but aren't....?

[Spoomonkey 421]

But many of the factors that drove me to swinging were the same ones that would have driven me to infidelity had we not been in the Lifestyle It is for that reason alone that I don't hold myself as being much different from most cheaters.

 

And this is the very reason why I see myself as very different.

 

Let me ask you a question... Do you think it is possible that there are people in the world that could be happily and hotly monogamous for the rest of their lives? Do you think marriages and partnerships like this exist?

 

Let me take it a step further... Do you think that there are swingers out there who could be just as happy if one partner or the other had said, "no"?

 

Here's were I differ from you in the most fundamental of ways...

 

When I married Mrs Spoomonkey, I married my adoloescent sexual fantasy. She was (is) a buxom brunette with a seemingly insatiable appetite for carnal things. When we decided to swing, it was not because we weren't completely happy and satisfied - it was simply because we could.

 

We had the freedom and the trust and the communication to try something fun.

 

Not everyone gets into swinging because they'd be a cheater otherwise...

 

That certainly wasn't my motivation.

 

Mrs Spoo married me knowing that I love to flirt and am an insatiable visual slut (ie. I will always look at boobs at the mall). But - beyond that - there was no concern that I'd cheat.

 

Could I cheat? I suppose so. Could she? Absolutely. Are we immune to bad things? Not at all - I don't believe we are - and I refuse to become complacent or stupid about that.

 

My point is that you are right - it DOES come down to motivation. For you, you were attracted to swinging because you were a philanderer. Am I reading that correctly? For us - and I'd guess others - we got into it as a couple and for us as a couple. And we'd quit in a heartbeat if we as a couple were threatened or became uncomfortable.

 

But - take away motivation and the only similarity between cheating and swinging is the fact that there are folks having sex with someone who isn't their spouse... Beyond that, the dissimilarities are staggering...

 

Spoomonkey

[Spoomonkey 421]

Maybe with all of the metaphors and analogies we are beating around the bush at we we all really want to say but aren't....?

 

So...

 

Say it

 

Spoomonkey

[curiousagain 326]

I know I said I was through, but ()&(&^(&(&( too much new stuff now in this thread.

 

Back to the airplane analogy for a moment.

 

After two years of marriage, my first wife had an affair. We separated. We reconciled, but things were never the same. We were married 4 more years and produced another child. I caught her in another affair and once digging, found out she had pretty much been banging everybody. Not speculation, they admitted it!!

 

I forgave her as much as possible for the first time and worked very hard at making the marriage work and never tried a "revenge" screw or anything like that. The second time(s) though were absolutely, positively, unforgivable. For many years I wished her a slow painful death. I screwed all of her single friends and made sure she knew about it. (They knew what she had been doing and I was wondering why all of them were coming on to me when I was married, DUH!! they figured she was doing it I would/should too, but I'm not a cheater) So, maybe once is forgiveable, a second isn't.

 

Now, to ONE of the reasons swingers don't want to fool with cheaters. The shit WILL hit the fan and when it does everybody involved gets some on them. When my first wife and I split up the final time I made sure the wives of the guys she was screwing knew about it. I told them in front of their husbands at their house and they had to admit it to their wives. I ain't shy, I wanted them to get some idea of the havoc cheating creates in a household. Since all but two wound up getting a divorce and making their own alimony/child support payments and those two probably still toe the line to avoid those payments, I think they understand now that there is no good end to it. That cheater may think they are all swift and such but they will be found out and when they are no good can come of it. Swinging couples/singles are having sex without cheaters and are usually taking a risk at "being found out" anyway. Why add that risk?? JNCC, you said the couples have all the risk and the single has none. Well, a cheating single has plenty to risk and also adds to the risk of the swinging couples/singles oftentimes against their will.

 

I was seeing a girl one time that was suppose to be single. Lying in my bed one night in the afterglow she admitted she lived with someone and he had shot at her last "side man". After a couple of weeks, she had decided to warn me. I had her out the door before she could get dressed. She literally had to get dressed on my front walk. I lost a job one time because I wouldn't "cover" for the boss. That is how tolerant I am of cheaters. Sue me if you don't like it. You can cry and wring your hands over how unfair it is and I don't give a damn. I am a pretty tolerant guy but there are some things I will not tolerate under any circumstances. I am free to feel that way and you are free to not like it but I don't give a rat's ass.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

INow, to ONE of the reasons swingers don't want to fool with cheaters. The shit WILL hit the fan and when it does everybody involved gets some on them. When my first wife and I split up the final time I made sure the wives of the guys she was screwing knew about it. I told them in front of their husbands at their house and they had to admit it to their wives. I ain't shy, I wanted them to get some idea of the havoc cheating creates in a household. Since all but two wound up getting a divorce and making their own alimony/child support payments and those two probably still toe the line to avoid those payments, I think they understand now that there is no good end to it. That cheater may think they are all swift and such but they will be found out and when they are no good can come of it. Swinging couples/singles are having sex without cheaters and are usually taking a risk at "being found out" anyway. Why add that risk?? JNCC, you said the couples have all the risk and the single has none. Well, a cheating single has plenty to risk and also adds to the risk of the swinging couples/singles oftentimes against their will.

 

 

You know things like that happen to people and they sit around thinking "I wish I had done this or said that and exposed them etc" And you did it!!

 

You didn't need those men as friends anyway because of the type of friends they were . . . f***ing your wife behind your back.

 

Everyone who swings (couples or singles) take a risk of being exposed to their friends and families for their choice of lifestyle but the couples make that decision together and well singles can make it for themselves. The spouse of a cheater doesn't get a choice in the matter when the cheater gets caught and it is all out in the open. Cheaters are selfish, liars and are not the same as swingers. That's not to say there are "bad apples" in the swinging community who have coerced their spouses into it for their own selfish reasons but that doesn't make swingers and cheaters equal or the same.

 

Mrs Spoomonkey

[JnCC 24]

After two years of marriage, my first wife had an affair. We reconciled, but things were never the same...I caught her in another affair...

An ancient proverb says...."'Tis not so unusual to find a spouse who has been unfaithful, as it is to find one who has done so only once"

 

When my first wife and I split up the final time I made sure the wives of the guys she was screwing knew about it...I ain't shy, I wanted them to get some idea of the havoc cheating creates in a household

I don't blame you for being pissed. I probably would have been tempted to do the same thing. In fact, I did do something similar when one of our swingiung friends made a number of passes at my wife when we were going through our own difficulties.

 

I know it must have been hard to see your marriage being torn to shreds, while they're going home to their own loving families. The question I have is...do you think that all of these people learned their lesson, or are they just more careful about their indiscretions now?

 

JNCC, you said the couples have all the risk and the single has none. Well, a cheating single has plenty to risk and also adds to the risk of the swinging couples/singles oftentimes against their will

A "cheating single?" I thought the word "cheating" implied that there was some ongoing deception of one's own partner. If a person is single, there is no "partner," ergo, no deception. It's not "cheating" unless there's somebody being cheated.

 

If you're talking about a married person who is playing as a single, I suppose there is an increased risk of their spouse finding out and creating a fuss, but MY biggest objection to including them into our activities would be because of their character, not because I thought we might be "outed" by their spouse.

 

real men go down with the plane, fighting to save it all the way

Actually...Several years ago, the Air Force became alarmed by the number of crashes in which a pilot had the capability to bail out prior to impact, but did not. So they commissioned a study, which concluded that the more a pilot believe's he's responsible for the predicament his aircraft is in, the less likely he is to eject in time. On the other hand, if he believes the fault lies elsewhere, he usually shows no hesitation in leaving his stricken craft.

 

I think there are some definite parallels between the behavior of a pilot who "goes down with his plane," and a person who "goes down with their marriage."

[curiousagain 326]

Yeah, I wrote cheating single when I meant a cheater posing as a single.

 

I don't care if they became non cheaters or just more careful cheaters. That wasn't the point. Them suffering the consequences for their actions was the point. I imagine after I left, most were just happy to be alive so the consequences didn't seem so bad. But, at least they suffered consequences that were not pleasant. Hopefully they learned something from it. Even if it was just not to make life unpleasant for me and that some people are more trouble than they're worth. And, that is the base of the dislike for cheaters. They are more trouble than they're worth and if you knowingly play with cheaters you are enabling and assisting in hurting someone who has done nothing to you to deserve it.

 

Nobody likes a whiner. It doesn't matter what they are whining about. Not everybody wants to screw you. Some might, if not for the fact that you're single, cheating, tall, short, white, black, male, female, redheaded, blonde, bald, thin, thick, whatever. Don't take it personal. Don't demand they change their mind. Go on with your life and don't worry about it.

 

As for myself, if a woman tells me she's married but wants to see me on the side, I refuse and feel sorry for her and her spouse. If she doesn't tell me she's married and I find out the hard way, I hope she suffers all of the bad consequences of it. You can rationalize and metaphor until Hell freezes over and you are no more likely to change my mind than to convince me nambla is right. It just ain't going to happen.

[northindycpl 32]

They are more trouble than they're worth and if you knowingly play with cheaters you are enabling and assisting in hurting someone who has done nothing to you to deserve it.

 

(Ok... I gotta add this!)

 

 

If you knew your neighbor murdered his wife, and he came over to borrow your shovel to burry her in the back yard- and you gave him your shovel and didn't call the police- you are just as guilty as your neighbor!

 

You know it is wrong, but somehow you justify in your mind, that it is fine becasue you weren't the one who actually killed her- you are STILL wrong for lending the shovel!

 

It is the same thing in cheating! if you Know he is married- don't fuck him!

 

Finished!

 

There are plenty of nice single guys out there, right Curious

[JnCC 24]

If you knew your neighbor murdered his wife, and he came over to borrow your shovel to burry her in the back yard- and you gave him your shovel and didn't call the police- you are just as guilty as your neighbor!

If I knew my neighbor murdered his wife, I'd rent that fucker a backhoe!

 

There are a few small "errands" he could do for me while he's "workin' in his yard," not the least if which would be to pay a "visit" to my second wife and her lawyer.

 

Hey Curiousagain...what'dya say? You wanna go in halves with me? Sounds like you've got a few miscellaneous "errands" to do also!

[desert_dwellers 18]

Cheating is the purposeful self-gradification of one person that directly violates the trust of their signifigant other. There is no justification for it in my view, EVER. The "I was driven to cheating" argument is BS.

 

Conversly, swinging is the purposeful self-gradification of both that EMBRACES the trust that is shared.

 

Sure swingers can and will cheat........but then they are cheaters not swingers.

[good times 991]

A "cheating single?" I thought the word "cheating" implied that there was some ongoing deception of one's own partner. If a person is single, there is no "partner," ergo, no deception. It's not "cheating" unless there's somebody being cheated.

 

As far as I'm concerned I would define a single who had sex with a married person without that persons spouses knowledge a cheater. He is a party to the deception of the one he is screwings spouse, after all.

 

It's kind of like someone once told me that (another analogy here) a smoker who quites smoking is still a smoker, he just isn't smoking now. If that has you confused what I'm trying to say is that being a cheater is a state of mind in my opinion. If someone can justify in their own mind cheating with someone elses spouse, then it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me to assume they would be able to equally justify cheating with their own spouse if they had one. Therefore, they are a cheater wether they are currently single or not.

[JnCC 24]

As far as I'm concerned I would define a single who had sex with a married person without that persons spouses knowledge a cheater. He is a party to the deception of the one he is screwings spouse, after all

OK, I can see your point. I could probably agree with that definition to some extent, although I don't feel the single person has quite the same level of responsibility for "breaking vows," since he hasn't taken any. But they certainly aren't showing much respect for the institution of marriage when they get involved with a married person.

 

My neighbor just pulled into her driveway. She's been having an affair with her boss (we work for companies that are very closely related, and I was once seated nearby when she was having an obviously romantic, candlelight dinner with him). I haven't told her husband about it yet, but I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should. I feel that by not telling him, I've become "a party to the deception" which would make ME a "cheater" just like her.

 

I should probably mention it to her bosses wife, too. I know I'll feel a lot better about myself after I do...

[curiousagain 326]

Hey Curiousagain...what'dya say? You wanna go in halves with me? Sounds like you've got a few miscellaneous "errands" to do also!

 

All my errands have been run, long ago. Living well is the best revenge.

[northindycpl 32]

My neighbor just pulled into her driveway. She's been having an affair with her boss (we work for companies that are very closely related, and I was once seated nearby when she was having an obviously romantic, candlelight dinner with him). I haven't told her husband about it yet, but I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should. I feel that by not telling him, I've become "a party to the deception" which would make ME a "cheater" just like her.

 

I should probably mention it to her bosses wife, too. I know I'll feel a lot better about myself after I do...

 

 

Now I do not think that was the point. You aren't a cheater because you know she is cheating. You are a cheater if you start fucking her. That is the point.

[conniekutie 16]

OK, I can see your point. I could probably agree with that definition to some extent, although I don't feel the single person has quite the same level of responsibility for "breaking vows," since he hasn't taken any.

 

 

I disagree. Its a morals thing. As a single, I was very careful when playing with married people. I usually approached the female first...we'd strike up a conversation, and if I found her intresting, and him attractive, I'd ask if she minded. Sometimes she wanted to play too, and sometimes she wanted to watch, and both are fine with me.

Anyway, my point is that I wouldn't ever dream of touching without asking first.

[tryit2? 15]

It looks like we are pretty much in agreement, any deceit = cheating, anything discussed (well..almost anything)out in the open is not. The analogies are great. It all seems to boil down to intent. Whether it is deceiving yourself, or your SO, intending to deceive is the problem. Is it easier for swingers to cheat? Possibly, because they are more "open" to the idea of extramarital sex. BUT, as Spoo so capably says, WHY? If you are doing so great as to be swinging, and are open to such new experiences, why jeopardize your marriage or yourself by cheating? Cheating by accident? Well, I suppose if you were deceived into a situation where you thought it was OK, but found out it was someone cheating, yeah, I suppose that could happen. Again, someone was deceived.

 

OK, let me throw another verbal bomb.

 

LOL This may be a topic for another discussion, but bear with me for a moment. Swinging is supposed to be between couples. Where do threesomes come into the equation? Three meaning NOT 2 couples. Whether MFM or FMF, (FFF/MMM, etc.) Someone introduced into the couple that is not of that couple. Is this considered to be part of swinging? How would this fit into the cheating scenario? I guess if this generates enough interest, I will post it as another thread. This was just tossed in to generate some more discussion. Sorry if it is too far off topic. And thank you for your responses.

[northindycpl 32]

That is a good question....I have always viewed it as it is up to the intiating couple. What happens between Mr. Indy and I, together... openly and honestly is fine. I don't think a single adds or removes anything.

 

Coincidentally.... Mr. Indy and I have had the rule that we don't play with singles. Now, we would be willing to make an exception for some pretty specific ones, but we do not look for them, or even accept email from them on our SLS ads.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

NewTemptations said:

I can see their point of view (sorta).... if i had this "vanilla" understanding of swinging and the lack of abilities to work out whatever problems in my own personal relationship, i guess I might be silly enuff to look into the lifestyle in an attempt to fix what I felt was wrong with my life. This wont work for these cheaters in the long run...but they seem to only be looking for the quick fix for their immediate wants, so they are looking in the wrong place!

 

I guess I don't see how cheating on your partner would be a fix (quick or otherwise) to the problems one would have in their relationship? I see it more as a severe case of selfishness... they have fantasies they want fulfilled their partner won't do it (or typically they won't even talk to their partner about said fantasies) so they go somewhere else. It's really a small symptom of a much bigger problem - a lack of communication.

 

northindycpl said:

Cheating is a selfish act, whose only reward is self-serving....

 

Exactly!

 

northindycpl said:

Cheaters hide their needs from their spouses and seek satisfaction elsewhere because they are too weak to communicate their needs with their spouses.

 

I don't think this is always the case. I think that often they do talk to their partners about their needs but their partner may not be open to fulfilling said needs/desires. So instead, they go off looking to fulfill them on their own. I think this is a large portion of what we get here with the sob stories about their cold fish wives and lack fo sex at home. What they fail to see is it that it is not OUR JOB to fulfill their fantasies/wants/needs. We have partners who we are honest with, and I would say that most of us, if our partners were not open to this lifestyle or decided they wanted to stop, we would stop and put said fantasies on a back-burner somewhere to take out and think about and talk about on occasion but to act on no more.

 

Alura said:

If a man's wife (or a woman's husband) doesn't want to have sex with him, (or her) there is probably a reason. No sexual problem between lovers has ever been solved by cheating.

 

Amen. Sexual problems (lack of sex) is typically a side-effect of some other problem. If a cheater would spend the same energy trying to find out why his partner isn't interestedin sex with him anymore as he does trying to find sex on the side... he might start getting it at home again.

 

I don't think that anyone can generalize and say that the marriages of all swingers are perfect. If that were the case, I'd still be married. Nor can we say that the communication in all swinging marriages is perfect, or that all swingers are honest with each other. But I do think that we can say that swingers in a successful relationship who are swinging for the right reasons, probably have a much better idea of what it takes to make a marriage work than many others.

 

JNCC, I dare say that your swinging friends who are now divorced, can probably tell you exactly why they are divorced and what went wrong in their marriage and what they would or would not do again... probably much more so than most others who have come out of unsuccessful relationships. Chances are they knew what it took even then, they just didn't do it for whatever reason. Another thing that definately has to be considered is people's reasons for swinging. Too often people opt to swing as a replacement for cheating... to fix their marriage. If a couple opts to swing to fix their marriage then much like cheating to fix their marriage it may put a band-aid on the problem for a while but eventually the band-aid will fall off and sore will be quite obvious.

 

tryit2? said:

BUT NEARLY EVERYONE would call this cheating it seems.

Actually on that you are wrong. Most on this site would not call it cheating if you were out having sex with other people WITH your wife's KNOWELEDGE and CONSENT, which in your scenario you would have. Now, finding others who will swing with you and believe that you actually do have those two things is another story. You may need a note from home, you may need your wife to actually meet with couples you wish to play with and express her approval, and you may find a few who will just take you at your word. But, whatever the case, if she knows and approves, you aren't cheating.

 

intuition897 said:

The ONLY relation they have to one another is the fact that sex does occur with someone other than your spouse.

 

It goes back to the idea that to non-swingers sex IS what makes up the cheating, when in reality there is so much more to cheating and cheating can happen without sex. I was talking with a woman tonight in chat that has been having nightly phone calls with a married man without his wife's knowledge for 2 YEARS... in my book, he's cheating, even if he hasn't had sex with anyone else.

[intuition897 2,179]

I was talking with a woman tonight in chat that has been having nightly phone calls with a married man without his wife's knowledge for 2 YEARS... in my book, he's cheating, even if he hasn't had sex with anyone else.

 

I think once the seed's been planted in your heart and/or mind, it's a slippery slope. How much bigger a step is it to go from talking on the phone, to meeting for coffee (what? it's just coffee! ), to not having quite enough time to have a really good visit over coffee so they arrange dinner or another date. From there the obvious emotional attraction might manifest itself as an affectionate kiss on the cheek... You take it from there.

[JnCC 24]

I was talking with a woman tonight in chat that has been having nightly phone calls with a married man without his wife's knowledge for 2 YEARS... in my book, he's cheating, even if he hasn't had sex with anyone else.

Damn, you guys are breakin' my BALLS here! "Conventional wisdom" tells me if I'm married and have sex with another woman, I'm cheating. "Swinging-CW" tells me the same thing, but makes an exception if I tell my wife about it. In that case, I'm OK with swingers, but a perv in the eyes of society. Then, there are my Biblical teachings, which tell me that if I even think about having sex with another woman, I've committed a sin whether I share those thoughts with my wife or not. Now, along come you guys, telling me that having sex isn't what defines cheating...talking to a woman is.

 

It's no wonder so many guys turn into channel-surfing couch potatoes after they're married. We're not allowed to DO anything, THINK anything, or SAY anything.

 

 

I think once the seed's been planted in your heart and/or mind, it's a slippery slope. How much bigger a step is it to go from talking on the phone, to meeting for coffee (what? it's just coffee! ), to not having quite enough time to have a really good visit over coffee so they arrange dinner or another date. From there the obvious emotional attraction might manifest itself as an affectionate kiss on the cheek... You take it from there.

Funny you would bring this up right now... Ya see, I'm supposed to meet this high-zoot, female college professor...some gal I met on a "vanilla" site...for coffee tomorrow after work. She's pretty "uptown"...getting her into the sack won't be easy, or quick. If you don't mind, I'll just print your post and show it to her. Maybe after she reads it, I can convince her to skip the coffee, skip the dinner, skip the movies and funky little jazz clubs. Skip the plays, the hand holding, the walks along the riverfront, the little kisses followed by longer ones, skip the whole courtship thing altogether.

 

Skip it, and proceed directly into the bedroom.

 

If she goes along with this plan, I figure I'll save about 2-3 weeks and probably close to $500 (it would be more, but I'll still need to send her flowers the morning after) However much it is, if you'll send me your address, I'd be happy to split it with you!

 

Now, would you like that in Canadian or American dollars?

[curiousagain 326]

Well, good luck with that JNCC but somehow, I don't think it's going to work. But it is a slippery slope as was pointed out. Two married people who begin an innocent activity and it slides on into an affair OVER A PERIOD OF TIME. oh, forget it.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

Damn, you guys are breakin' my BALLS here! "Conventional wisdom" tells me if I'm married and have sex with another woman, I'm cheating. "Swinging-CW" tells me the same thing, but makes an exception if I tell my wife about it. In that case, I'm OK with swingers, but a perv in the eyes of society. Then, there are my Biblical teachings, which tell me that if I even think about having sex with another woman, I've committed a sin whether I share those thoughts with my wife or not. Now, along come you guys, telling me that having sex isn't what defines cheating...talking to a woman is.

 

Funny you would bring this up right now... Ya see, I'm supposed to meet this high-zoot, female college professor...some gal I met on a "vanilla" site...for coffee tomorrow after work. She's pretty "uptown"...getting her into the sack won't be easy, or quick. If you don't mind, I'll just print your post and show it to her. Maybe after she reads it, I can convince her to skip the coffee, skip the dinner, skip the movies and funky little jazz clubs. Skip the plays, the hand holding, the walks along the riverfront, the little kisses followed by longer ones, skip the whole courtship thing altogether.

 

I don't know what chip you have on your shoulder but you missed the whole point of what was and is being said. A vanilla date and a married person having a relationship with someone other than his or her spouse is two different things!! Never mind you don't understand anyone else's explainations about the difference between swinging and cheating so there's really no point in trying to discuss it while you keep coming to this thread.

 

Mrs Spoomonkey

[GorAndLor 16]

you have to be able to sperate the 2 we use swinging as something we like to do, its always done together & we like to always be in the same room, at 1 party these 5 guys grabbed Lori took her back into a bedroom & through the whole party I never saw her afterwards I foundout that there was a total of 8 guys. but at the time we were young & still new to the lifestyle the closest couple to our age was about 15 years older than us

[findtime 16]

Cheating, by definition, is gaining an advantage without the other party's knowledge.

How is it cheating if all are aware, on board, and following the parameters set out in advance?

 

HUGE difference.

[JnCC 24]

I don't know what chip you have on your shoulder but you missed the whole point of what was and is being said. A vanilla date and a married person having a relationship with someone other than his or her spouse is two different things!! Never mind you don't understand anyone else's explainations about the difference between swinging and cheating so there's really no point in trying to discuss it while you keep coming to this thread

The only "chip" that I have on my shoulder is the one that you keep trying to put there, presumably so you can "knock it off" in your subsequent posts.

 

I never said that "swinging was the same thing as cheating." You can post links to my previous statements from here to freakin' Uranus, but you won't find me, or anybody else, saying that. Do I find it "similar in some ways?" Yes...that's my perspective on it...but that doesn't mean that others share that perspective, or that their opinions aren't valid. Do I feel that swinging is a "response to some fundamental human need for variety in sexual relationships...a need that not all couples share equally?" Yes again...for some couples, that would be my belief. But calling them "the same" or implying that a "vanilla date" was the same as "a married person having a relationship with someone other than his or her spouse?" I never said that...not here, not in PM, not anywhere.

 

I choose my words very carefully when posting here. Please take a moment to read them just as carefully before flying off the handle at the meanings you've ascribed to them. It will save us both a lot of frustration.

 

My original response was to intuition 897, who was concerned that "talking on the phone" would lead inexorably to "meeting for coffee...dinner or another date...an emotional attraction...an affectionate kiss on the cheek," and ultimately, to a sexual affair.

 

Her concerns were well-founded. If I were married, and my wife were having nightly telephone calls to another man, I'd be concerned also. What I wasn't convinced of was the idea that having a friend of the opposite sex constituted a "slippery slope" that would invariably lead to a "downward slide" into an affair. Maybe I am overly sensitized to the issue of "slippery slopes," having come from a generation that was told that the occasional use of marijuana was a "slippery slope" that lead to heroin addiction, and that allowing sexually explicit materials to be sold openly would lead to an increase in the number of rapes and child molestations. There are many ways of "connecting the dots" in interpersonal relationships, of which "having an affair" is but one.

 

My tongue-in-cheek response was an attempt to point out the dangers of assuming that a given action can mean only one thing, and can end in only one way. Sometimes friendship with a person of the opposite sex leads to an affair, most times it does not. I'm sorry if the absurdity of my proposal to "cut right to the chase" in the process of courtship was lost on you.

 

The bottom line is that this is a forum..."A meeting place for the open discussion of ideas." It's not important that we are in agreement about a subject, (although I believe we do agree on the difference between the terms being discussed, namely "cheating" vs. "swinging"). What IS important, in fact, it's vital to the survival of any forum...is that we are encouraged to speak honestly about a subject, and that we listen with an open mind to the opinions of others. As a result of that process, our opinions may change. But the change comes from within, not because we've been hounded, belittled, or bullied with words.

 

Have you ever noticed how a houseplant will grow towards the light? It doesn't matter that you tie it to a stick pointing in another direction...it will always seek light and grow towards it. I believe we humans are much the same...we seek the truth of a matter, and once found, will gravitate towards it.

 

If your enjoyment of any forum is contingent upon your "changing somebody's mind," then you are certain to be dissapointed. But if you can bring yourself to listen with an open mind, you can benefit from the experience of many. Peace to you...

[Miss_Piggy 98]

I have avoided this thread until today so I'm sorry if this post appears to be jumping backwards in the conversation but I really wanted to make a comment on this.

 

It's kind of like someone once told me that (another analogy here) a smoker who quites smoking is still a smoker, he just isn't smoking now. If that has you confused what I'm trying to say is that being a cheater is a state of mind in my opinion. If someone can justify in their own mind cheating with someone elses spouse, then it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me to assume they would be able to equally justify cheating with their own spouse if they had one. Therefore, they are a cheater wether they are currently single or not.

 

I think the smoker analogy is actually making the point that quitting something like smoking (or alcohol) is a constant battle. This means that the person in question will forever have to work (to a certain degree) to avoid lighting up again in times of stress, frustration, boredom... whatever.

I don't think that means others should be constantly looking at them and wondering or worrying about whether they will have cigarette today or not.

 

I think this does relate to smoking but not in the way good times has suggested. Someone who has cheated in the past may use cheating again as a means of dealing with his/her problems (like the smoker does with cigarettes). The cheater may have to work very hard to learn new strategies for dealing with relationship problems. But it's not up to us non cheaters to pass judgement. As disgusting as cheating may sound to some of us I think a compassionate stance is important. Knowing that someone cheated in the past doesn't mean that it is necessary to label him/her as a "CHEATER" and worry about his/her future decisions. If you're worried about being cheated on by this person simply don't get involved. Otherwise, try to understand that they don't know how to solve their problems any other way and leave it at that. People are so incredibly dynamic - somtimes I think labels are extrememly dangerous. They encourage us to look at others in very simplistic ways. We know of someone as a cheater and thus apply all sorts of assumptions to that person based on our existing idea of what a cheater is.

 

I guess my point is that such judgements are dangerous. If it's something that bugs you enough then ignore it - but don't waste your time hating someone for their mistakes.

 

As for why cheaters think swingers are a convenient group with whom to satisfy their desires... I have no idea. But there will always be a number of people who just don't feel compatible with you. C'est la vie! Most of us just put cheaters into that category. I see that as a wise decision - but it's not something to get too worked up about... in fact I'm impressed that so many pages of posts have been generated on the topic.

 

I think I've gone off of even my own topic here so I'm just going to go ahead and post this and see if you can make any sense of it whatsoever. Good luck.

[curiousagain 326]

Here you are.

 

I never said that "swinging was the same thing as cheating." You can post links to my previous statements from here to freakin' Uranus, but you won't find me, or anybody else, saying that.

 

Let's walk down memory lane.

 

 

Basically, and I'm gonna give you the REAL short answer here...it was because I had no interest in having sex with JUST ONE PERSON for the rest of my life. Could I LOVE one person? Certainly. The right person, that is, although as I get older the chances that I'm going to meet "the right one" seem to be fading. But could I love anybody enough that after 5 years of having sex with just her, I would pass on the opportunity to nail the recently-divorced accounts payable clerk with the nice tits from Sector 4G at the office Christmas party? Nahhhh, probably not.

 

Even if you had to cheat, huh? So you're a cheater. Glad that's settled.

 

There's certainly a paradigm shift in swingers attitudes towards sexuality, but as a group, we're about as narrow minded as the Bible-thumpers who would have us tarred, feathered, and run out of town. We're every bit as intolerant as they are.

 

Now you're a swinger?? Boy, I was confused.

 

 

Why does that surprise you? As has been pointed out in here by many others recently, "Swinging is NOT cheating." I don't know how the "cheating community" regards swinging, as I'm not a member of that group.

 

So you're not a swinger or a cheater?

 

But many of the factors that drove me to swinging were the same ones that would have driven me to infidelity had we not been in the Lifestyle It is for that reason alone that I don't hold myself as being much different from most cheaters.

So you were a swinger just to prevent you from being a cheater.

 

 

Probably the biggest, and arguably the only, difference between swingers and cheaters is that cheaters aren't telling their spouses about it.

Arguable, yes, biggest, no.

 

 

The bottom line is that this is a forum..."A meeting place for the open discussion of ideas." It's not important that we are in agreement about a subject

So, are you on a swingers board to discuss swinging issues or just irritate people who can't "reach out and touch you"?

 

 

I suppose there are some people who, if they got down on all fours and ate out of the dog's dish, would say...

 

"YUCK! This tastes like DOG FOOD!"

 

...and wonder why the rest of the world were shaking their head and sighing...

 

So you don't really wonder why people take offense at your words. You know you twist words, quotes, and take things out of context merely to incite, irritate, and muddle issues.

 

 

I think we'd all agree that swingers are "honest," and cheaters are "dishonest." In that regard, we're at different ends of the spectrum.

That's one of the ways.

 

 

 

As my mother used to say..."It all depends on whose ox is being gored"

And I am thinking you enjoying goreing oxes. Swingersboard today, star wars board tomorrow, ........

 

If I knew my neighbor murdered his wife, I'd rent that fucker a backhoe!

I think this stands on it's own merits.

 

 

I give up.

12/30/2004

 

If only, if only.

 

Here's Uranus

 

 

Those who can't play coach, those who can't coach, sit thirty rows deep, shirtless, screaming obscenities.

 

Everybody long ago has agreed to disagree with you on this ONE issue. Everybody else would gladly let it alone. You are the one who is attention starved, returning to the subject again and again and again. Everybody here has engaged you in spirted, lively, intelligent discussion and you continue to resort to tactics that would not be tolerated in a real debate. I have had enough of your psuedointellectualism. You remind me of the little boy that wants to play a game over and over again until by chance or forfiture due to being feed up, he wins the game. An adult would realize that is not really winning. That is merely whining until you get your way. I am through with you. I wash my hands of you as I shake the dust from my judeo-Christian sandals (yeah that's a rip off of one of your post, go whine about that.) It took you 4 days plus to come up with your snappy little post and this took me about 7 minutes. You're really impressing me here. You're no longer worth my time (7 minutes worth) to respond to your incessant whining and twisting of words. Go shout your hollow arguments and self impressing diatribe out your window. I won't involve you in any more debate because you are no challenge and not worth my time.

 

Get a life, JNCC

[DBL D 120]

I'd Love to hear wrnkdru's take on this or even the long lost EBF's.

 

Suffice it to say, it is sad that JnCC seems to have put his butt in a crack here.

 

Hope he can at least garner something from this "...meeting place of open ideas." And I thought we were the B.O.S.L.P.! I guess I made another wrong turn.

 

Male D

[Vespertine 31]

I remember what BOSLP means, Male D!

 

Board Of Sexually Liberated People!

[ALilOEverything 901]

Board Of Sexually Liberated People!

 

Thank YOU! I could not for the life of me remember what the S stood for

[DBL D 120]

I guess you could insert your own "S". Just make me proud!

 

Male D

[ALilOEverything 901]

Smart is what came to mind first But I knew it was more creative than that.

[JnCC 24]

To; Curiousagain

From; JnCC

 

Subject; Your last post

 

Hey Dude...

 

Maybe it's time to switch to the decaf?

[Alura 2,774]

JnCC wrote:

 

Maybe it's time to switch to the decaf?

 

Or maybe topics? Perhaps topics we can talk about in friendlier terms?

 

Mr. Alura

[Vespertine 31]

I agree with Mr. Alura.

 

Discussing this topic is like beating a dead horse.

 

This is a Swinger's forum. Swingers in general, have always hated the cheating/swinging debate. It is a sensitive topic, to say the least. It would be like going to a Coke website and only wanting to talk about Pepsi.

 

Let's keep our board friendly.

[Spoomonkey 421]

Discussing this topic is like beating a dead horse.

 

COME ON, VES!!!

 

How can you say that?

 

Have you ever really beaten a dead horse?

 

It's actually a lot of fun - as long as you do it before they stiffen up and start to stink...

 

 

Spoomonkey

[Vespertine 31]

Fun as it may be, it has no purpose, because no matter how hard or how long you beat a dead horse, it is not going to get up and run.

 

[Alura 2,774]

I didn't know you were horse-savvy, Ves, but I'm glad to hear it. I just love them cowgirls!

 

My biggest complaint about dead horses it that they won't do anything at all. If they could just get up and move out of the stall, corral, wherever they decide to die, they'd be a whole lot easier to clean up. Dead horses are heavy!

 

Did you ever try to dig a grave for a horse? It's not easy! 'Bout like diggin' a grave for this thread...

 

Mr. Alura

[Spoomonkey 421]

My biggest complaint about dead horses it that they won't do anything at all.

 

But that's good - because monkeys are easily startled... If I were beating what I THOUGHT was a dead horse - and he jerked or something - I'd wet myself...

 

And how would that look?

 

Spoomonkey

[Alura 2,774]

Spoomonkey wrote:

 

And how would that look?

 

Hmmmm... Lessee, Spoo... darker colored, matted hair?

 

A long, long time ago, somewhere not too far from Lubbock, a long-lost friend of mine and his father were poaching deer at night using a spotlight and a .22 rifle, all of which were doubtless illegal as hell.

 

They would shine the light in the deer's eyes. The deer would freeze, staring into the light. They'd try to shoot him in the eye.

 

They got one, threw him into the back of the pickup and headed home. Doug, a teenager at the time, was assigned to ride in the truck bed, keeping a tarp over the dead deer in case they met a game warden.

 

When they stopped at a red light in Lubbock the deer woke up, exited the pickup bed using Doug as a launching pad and headed out of town, exceeding the speed limit while dodging cars, never to be seen again. Doug required stitches in his scalp and the bruises on his body were there for a long time, he said.

 

I guess there's a difference between beating a dead animal and being beaten by one...

 

Mr. Alura

[TNT 1,155]

Poor Spoo. I'm picturing you with urine stained fur, dung stained hands (from flinging poo at cheaters walking by your cage) dancing atop a dead horse clutching a broken branch. It can't be easy to be you.

 

Ted

[Spoomonkey 421]

It can't be easy to be you.

 

Easy? No

 

Fun? Yes!

 

 

Spoomonkey (who wonders how Ted knew I used a stick... It's my ant-fishing stick!)

[TNT 1,155]

You know, I have eye witnessed actual chimpanzee sex and it was an awesome sight. I tip my hat to you, purple primate.

 

Ted

[Spoomonkey 421]

You know, I have eye witnessed actual chimpanzee sex and it was an awesome sight.

 

Now witness my proud, purple, puffed out chest

 

Spoomonkey (Chimp Daddy)

[fifty4x2 15]

Swinging is cheating if one does not know what the other is doing. It is not a one sided realationship. There has to be communication between the couple. You talk more you enjoy the lifestyle more.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Swinging is cheating if one does not know what the other is doing. It is not a one sided realationship. There has to be communication between the couple. You talk more you enjoy the lifestyle more.

 

If one doesn't know what the other one is doing then it's not swinging.