Are transvestites welcome in swingers clubs?

[Panama 15]

Are transvestites generally welcome in swingers clubs? I'm thinking NOT, based on a few threads I've read, which suprises me since I thought swingers would be more open minded...

 

The Red Rooster in Las Vegas seems okay with it as along as you are open about it and not "surprising" anyone...

[Mrs Spoomonkey 117]

Don't want to step on any toes but as the female half in a swinging couple situation I think I am open minded in that my husband (Mr Spoo) and I have decided together to have sex with other couples and some singles. I don't know any transvestites (that I know of ) so I can't say I have anything against them but I also wouldn't go to a place that was predominately for transvestites. I guess if one visited our club I wouldn't be upset (might not even be aware) but I wouldn't play with one if they approached and said that they were and I wouldn't want my local club to become a big hang out for them.

 

I hope that makes sense and doesn't offend anyone, it's just not something that Mr Spoo and I are interested in at all.

[looking2swing 17]

I am going to agree with Mrs. Spoomonkey. As a female, I would not visit a club where transvestites frequented. I am only comfortable in a typical swinging environment. I also hope that I did not offend anyone, to each their own, but not my cup of tea.

[TNT 1,155]

Panama said:

as along as you are open about it and not "surprising" anyone...

 

I think those are the key words.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be offended at all.

[jeff n nikki 15]

Gotta love the hypocrisy! It is ok and encouraged for women to be bi, but men? Forget it, TABOO! Double standard hypocrisy!!

 

As Anton Levay said "free love clubs aren't free at all...they have their own conformity that is in reality the opposite of free!"

 

Imagine this at a swing club...transsexuals, bdsm people, piss fetish, foot fetishes, men who like their groins stomped, scat fans, bi and gay men, people fucking in clown suits! Now I'm not into that stuff...but swingers preach free sexuality, but it really is structured, conformed, and regimented! If someone isn't harming you, why worry? Besides, maybe these men that are so homophobic might be too tempted with a tv/ts around...and the ladies that are uncomfortable are threatened by these ts/tv's because they might be able to please a man better than they can. Just some observations...hope there was no offense.

[jim-n-nicole 15]

No offense taken, Jeff.

 

I found it pretty interesting when we first started going to clubs that clubs have their own set of rules. For instance, gay male activity is not really welcome. One club we go to brings out a birthday cake for couples who have birthdays that weekend...the females blow out the candles because "men don't blow nuthin at this club!". I guess I was relieved to find this out, but it brings up a point I am confused by: why do I enjoy watching two women together, but not two men?

 

But when you stop and think about it, everyone on the face of this planet has their limits. They have to or they'd be dead and buried from overindulging (be it sex, alcohol, drugs, or anything else for that matter)! Clubs just draw the limit-line over a little farther than the average person. The subcategories you name are well past what is acceptable in clubs and, to be perfectly honest, we would no doubt stop attending if they were allowed! Well, okay, maybe we'd get a kick out of the clown suits.

 

Limits are a good thing. You just have to figure out where the proper place for the line is for you.

[northindycpl 32]

Gotta love the hypocrisy! It is ok and encouraged for women to be bi, but men? Forget it, TABOO! Double standard hypocrisy!!

 

I am not sure that it is hypocrisy. If this were a gay swingers forum and the question was asked if gay men like to watch two women together what would the answer be?

 

Just because the most heterosexual couples answered your posts from their opinions as hetero-couples doesn't mean that they are necessarily hypocrites.

 

What lesbian couples find erotic, or gay male couples find erotic or hetero couples find erotic is simply that. Each segment is going to have a different answer based on what they are social-sexually experienced with.

 

In this forum, it would be more socially acceptable for hetero couples to find two women together exciting. In the gay forum I doubt it would come up.

 

So what you are really saying, is that if a hetero couple finds it a turn off for TV/Ts or 2 men together they are wrong.... but if a gay male couple finds it a turn off for 2 women to be together a turn off, they are right...because they are not considered hetero-socially-acceptable hypocrits?

[jeff n nikki 15]

This is a reply to the last post. I really don't think you understood the gist of my argument. I mean it is completely and socially acceptable for women to be bisexual (you see it on tv all the time...our biggest female stars are bi...kissing each other etc.) but not for a man. Men love to see women go at it, but they shudder (on the outside anyhow) over two men...just noting the hypocrisy...maybe you have a lot of gay guilt/shame?

[two4youinswva 3,068]

just some observations...hope there was no offense.

 

None taken. But here is another thought.

 

While the activities you mentioned wouldn't be appreciated at the largest majority of swing clubs, I don't think the majority of swingers have a problem with people participating in these activities in general. IE: Many vanilla folks have a big problem with there even being a swinging culture and think there shouldn't be swing clubs, etc. Most swingers have no problem with people going to BDSM clubs, gay/bi clubs, groin stomping (Ouch!) clubs, etc. if that's their particular kink. So while we as a couple have our "limits", and aren't interested in many of the kinks listed, we are more than willing to support others rights to pursue these interests.

 

Anyway, as to the original question. We wouldn't really have an interest in a TS/TV sexually, but wouldn't have too much of a problem with one attending our club. There are many couples at our club that we aren't really interested in pursuing sexually, so what's one more?

 

Obviously, if a large part of those attending were TS/TV, then it wouldn't be a standard "swing club" anymore. Since that's what we are primarily interested in, we would pursue another club that catered more to these activities.

[growgirl 15]

i mean it is completely and socially acceptable for women to be bisexual

 

Maybe in oswego it's completely and socially acceptable for women to be bi, but from where I sit, homophobia extends to females as well. I heard many more negative comments than positive after the madonna/britney kiss.

 

You're really pushing the gay/guilt shame bit though Jeff... what's up with that?

 

I haven't encountered a (obvious) transvestite yet, at a club or anywhere else. I wouldn't have a problem with a member or members being tvs, but like panama stated, being surprised would take the fun right out of it! I'd like to see a good one in person though... just for curiosity's sake... the mental checklist would have one more added to it

[jim-n-nicole 15]

two4youinswva said:

Most swingers have no problem with people going to BDSM clubs, gay/bi clubs, groin stomping (Ouch!) clubs, etc. if that's their particular kink. So while we as a couple have our "limits", and aren't interested in many of the kinks listed, we are more than willing to support others rights to pursue these interests.

 

Very good point. That probably is a big distinction between swingers and the population in general...we support others in their right to do what they want to do. Anything between consenting adults is fine by Nikki and me and we'll support those rights at the ballot box (that's why we support gay marriage)...but that doesn't mean we want to be around all possible variations of human interaction! We have our favorite forms...just like everybody else.

 

PS - I've had an hour now to think about why i like watching ff but not mm. I bet it comes down to the fact that I find the female shape very attractive and pleasing to my eye. I enjoy just looking at those soft curves, so putting two of those forms together just increases my enjoyment. On the other hand, the male form does nothing for me. Therefore, putting two male forms together is at best a big zero on my pleasure scale and, in many cases, it can even register a negative number!

[HotMoCpl 20]

We haven't been to a club yet, or swung for that matter. I don't think we would mind a tv being at the club.....so long as we know first.

[northindycpl 32]

This is a reply to the last post. I really don't think you understood the gist of my argument. I mean it is completely and socially acceptable for women to be bisexual (you see it on tv all the time...our biggest female stars are bi...kissing each other etc.) but not for a man. Men love to see women go at it, but they shudder (on the outside anyhow) over two men...just noting the hypocrisy...maybe you have a lot of gay guilt/shame?

 

Well this is the Mrs. and I was the one who made the previous post. I do not have any gay guilt shame as I am bi-sexual. I do know however, that my gay male vanilla friends do not find it a turn-on to see two women going at it.

 

I think it boils down to my point yet again, The majority of the posters here, and in the world are in hetero relationships. If the majority were in homosexual relations their outlook would be different.

 

Enough Said.

[BradAndJanet 70]

jeff n nikki said:

... swingers preach free sexuality ....

Actually, I think that's an incorrect statement, but it is one the 'vanilla' world believes is true about us.

 

Swinging isn't the same as 'free love'. Think about it: swingers have lots of rules about who, what, when, where and how. Yes, they're a little more adventurous than your average person, but that doesn't translate to 'do anyone, anyplace, anytime'.

 

I just don't see the hypocrisy at all. People have different tastes and you can't lump swingers into one category as if we all feel the same way.

 

To answer the original poster, no, we wouldn't be offended. Possibly curious, but not offended. However, if our club turned into a primarily TV/TS club, we'd stop going because that's not what we're interested in, as two4youinswva mentioned.

[Spoomonkey 420]

jeff n nikki said:

hope there was no offense.

 

Well - let me be the first to step up and say that I was offended...

 

Heck - being called a hypocrite and homophobe sort of does that to me.

 

It is NOT hypocrisy - it is preference. I don't have a problem with whatever a person chooses to be - but is it something that may make me uncomfortable? Yeah - it is...

 

Clowns scare me and groin stomping makes me cringe...

 

That's just me. I am glad you are more "open minded" in your obviously hateful way. Good for you. But I am of the mind that I would hate to walk into my swing club and find out it had become a gay bar. That would suck. I like it being a place where my wife and I can meet like-minded couples and singles. If that means that certain rules need to be set and codes of conduct followed, that's fine by me.

[SnozzberryBlu 83]

Hubby and I are not members of our local club, nor have we ever been.. but I do have some basic thoughts to add that I have not yet seen posted.

 

1. I did a lot of research on swinging before we jumped in. I have yet to see anything anywhere that is homophobic. What I have seen, repeatedly (and what made hubby and I respect swingers the most) was an openness to accept people as they are, where they are, etc. I have yet to see that sort of overall acceptance in the vanilla world.

 

2. What we have seen in swinging is an intolerance of deception and false appearances. People want people to be real... I would guess that even the most adventurous of swingers still have their boundaries and still want to know that what they see is what they get. Transvestites can be very obvious, but more and more they are not. Beauty aids, etc., have been developed to bring a more natural look to cross-dressing. I doubt very seriously that they would be happy having to announce who and what they are at the door, and/or wear a name tag or whatever stating so... many take great pride in being able to fool the eye. Therefore (I am guessing) they would have to reveal themselves to every potential approach... again, unsure they would welcome this - I know if it were me, it would be like coming out of the closet 100 times a night to perfect strangers.. .ouch! I think therefore that fear of revealing would encourage deception and the resulting "dates" could spell disaster and hurt feelings all around. This is, of course, considering all parties want to be honest. People in all walks are dishonest, and many enjoy deception and scamming people. I am sure there are transvestites who have the same bad qualities as the rest of humankind. Boy, one of those guys could really cause a mess!

 

3. I don't think swinging hetero guys are homophobic.... I think they have their preferences. Gays/Lesbians I know have not only shown disinterest in hetero sex, but find it disgusting and distasteful as well. However, they still support hetero rights, and hetero culture... and want the same for themselves. Gays/Lesbians would also not be happy if all their clubs were run over by heteros... one or two, not a problem... but a bunch on a regular basis? Hey that's a tease too... who is gay? who isn't? Ain't so easy to tell by looking. Gay bars are places for those of LIKE MINDS to find each other without fear of rejection or outing. It isn't that heteros can't go... I am just banking gays would not be happy to be inundated regularly by heteros. That said, there are always clubs in bigger cities that both gays and heteros go to.. . it is understood both sets of people are there.

 

4. From garden clubs to swinging clubs... beta club to french.... clubs have always been a place where those with common interests congregate.. and those not interested go find another club for them. Just because someone doesn't fit the design of the club does not make the club discriminatory. Swinging clubs are overall straight males and straight/bi females. Therefore, that is who members expect, by default, new members to be.

 

5. Finally (I think lol).. Acceptance of female bisexuality vs male. Ok I am still a newbie to this lifestyle, but not to human behavior. I am taking some stabs in the dark here that I think are pretty strong stabs. Here they are: A) Many couples enter the lifestyle (like us) because wife was BI to start with, B) Of those couples where the woman is straight, some will change as she is exposed to things she perhaps repressed or denied in the past C) As said before, the female body is considered more aesthetically pleasing, therefore even straights are going to enjoy seeing all those curves bundled up together. D) Female expression of sexual pleasure is (to me) more arousing... men are quiet, lucky to get a grunt or two lol... women can go from loud groaning to soft purrs.. all of which can sexually stimulating to any hear, gay or straight. E) Even the most open-minded straight guy is not going to be even close to turned on by two guys together (same as gays)... and if they are, they are not straight lol...

 

To put it all together, I am saying basically that clubs are clubs because of like minded members, that swingers are very accepting of all lifestyles, and the possibility of deception is probably the primary factor in this perceived discrimination.

 

I do have one question to post tho... (if it was posted already, pleases excuse me)... has anyone, anywhere, found/seen where a transvestite even wanted to go in a swinging club and was turned away???? Sorry, I just don't believe that has happened unless someone was a troublemaker. I do firmly believe most all transvestites would be much more inclined to stay in clubs with others who share their interests

[jeff n nikki 15]

Typically, no one got my point and were offended. I was making a point so that people could look at things from a different view! But it seems everyone read my post and twisted the words into something it wasn't!

[jim-n-nicole 15]

Wow, Snozz...that was an amazing and beautifully thought out post. Thank you! (and I agree 100%, btw)

 

Also, I finally got around to following Teresa's link to the earlier thread and was amazed at how similar Spoo and I think. I swear I didn't read that earlier thread until after I posted here!!

 

In any case, we have a very bright, articulate and open set of people here. It's a pleasure to know you all - if only via the internet.

 

Jim.

[Panama 15]

WOW!! I'm glad to see this is an active discussion board, thanks for all the responses!!

 

Here's the deal - I'm a heterosexual male and presenting a feminine illusion is a fetish and hobby for me, not a lifestyle. I don't have breasts or take hormones - I'm a transvestite, not a transsexual. When I dress up, I do it all the way - head to toe clothing, make-up, jewelry, accessories and with appropriate padding, forms, wig, etc. I'm quite passable from across a room and not bad up close either, but I do find it very difficult to maintain a feminine voice and the more clothing I remove, the harder is to maintain a passable female image.

 

As I said, I'm heterosexual, and as a man, I have no interest in being with other men in a sexual way. Other the other hand, I enjoy role-playing as a female and when I'm in that role, the scenarios often involve a male role, but always with a female playing the part. In my female roles, I've got a huge oral fetish and I been lucky enough to know women willing to indulge my fetish and help me fulfill fantasies by wearing a strap-on and talking dirty to me while I go down on it.

 

Now I guess I've become bi-curious to some extent because I'm wondering what it would be like to suck a real cock...not as a male, but as my female counterpart or alter-ego. To realize my fantasy, I don't want to do this with anyone I know and I want to do in a safe and non-threatening environment - - hence the idea of a swingers club and away from my home town.

 

We (me "en femme" and a real female companion) would arrive at the club and approach couples together until we find someone willing to participate. Then my companion would provide any "coaching" needed until I get the job done...and if for some reason I'm unable to complete the task, I'm sure she'd be happy to finish the job! I've heard some swing clubs have glory holes and this might be an easier setting for me; I'm not sure, and it any case, there would be NO SURPRISES for anyone involved. What do you think about this approach?

 

I've been on the receiving end of hundreds, probably thousands of blow jobs and personally, I wouldn't want to look down a see a guy doing it, no matter how good he was, but I think I'd be okay with a male or she-male as long as they looked like a beautiful girl with a cock in her mouth, not like a man in drag. I mean, what is the difference, if you can't tell the difference? If it looks like a girl, walks like an girl, sounds like girl, smells like a girl, feels like a girl, and sucks like a girl, it must be a girl, right? or NOT!?

[xxoticangel 98]

Guess I'll chime in on this one.

 

We have played with a tranny once. We met him/her at Backstreets in Atlanta when we went there on a whim. Having admitted that I must say that I would not appreciate our club allowing ts/tv's in unescorted, ie treat them like any other single male. IMHO if swing clubs allowed single trannys in the club would soon become a gay club vs a swing club. Nothing wrong with gay clubs it just that there are if we want to go to one we know where they are. If we want to attend a swing club we go there. Just like country music clubs, hip hop clubs, jazz clubs, etc. There is nothing worst than going to a country bar so that we can two step and finding that most of the music is geared toward club or hip hop. If we ever decide that we want to play with another tranny we will go to Underground and try to meet one.

has anyone, anywhere, found/seen where a transvestite even wanted to go in a swinging club and was turned away????

Yes. We were behind a tranny couple at a club (now defunct) waiting to get in. As it was Saturday night and only couples and single women were allowed they were turned away as single men. I don't know if it was just a convient excuse for the club or not but they were not allowed in.

[good times 991]

SnozzberryBlu said:

has anyone, anywhere, found/seen where a transvestite even wanted to go in a swinging club and was turned away????

I haven't seen one turned away at the door, but at the clubs we go to if they were to engage in any homosexual activity they would be tossed out. I have seen that happen before. I do know that they do try to discourage them at the door though and you can bet they are watched closely the whole time they are their to make sure they follow the rules.

 

I have to say in regards to the original thread here that I prefer not to see these people at the swing clubs. It seems to me kind of like an avid hunter wanting to hang out at the PETA meetings, I'd really wonder why? That might be an extreme example but lets face it, what does swinging and cross dressing have in common? Not a thing that I can see. I am already confused enough by the large diversity of interests you find at the clubs without allowing more, i.e. - swappers, mfm, fmf, ffm, ff, Voyeurs, exhibitionists etc.. It is almost enough to make one wish we all would wear some form of ID at the clubs to show people at a glance what we are in to just to save time. In our area they have clubs and groups for these other interests so I would prefer they didn't come to the swing clubs. Does this mean I'm homophobic or biased against people who have interests other than mine? No, but if you think I am that's fine with me too as I'm not overly concerned how others define my feelings. I think if a guy wants to dress up in woman's clothes and go out on the town, have at it, But don't ask me to join you as that type of activity doesn't appeal to me in the least.

 

As Spoo said earlier (paraphrasing) "I don't want to show up at the swing club and find out it has turned into a gay bar" and I would add, BDSM club, Transvestite club or anything else other than a Swingers Club .

[Alternatives 15]

Panama said:

. . .I thought swingers would be more open minded...

Swingers are no more or less open minded than the general public about most things. That they are swingers only proves that they are open to swinging.

 

Whether that's good or bad, we're not sure.

[jcbicouple 24]

As Spoo said earlier (paraphrasing) "I don't want to show up at the swing club and find out it has turned into a gay bar" and I would add, BDSM club, Transvestite club or anything else other than a Swingers Club .

As you and Spoo both said earlier (more or less, I'm not quoting anything): Each club has their own "thing", and those that prefer them will go there. There are Swing clubs that are open to male bisexuality as well as female bisexuality. He just needs to look a little harder. Not everyone (or every club) is discriminating against male/male sexual activity. Yes, most are, but not all are.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 117]

good times said:

I haven't seen one turned away at the door, but at the clubs we go to if they were to engage in any homosexual activity they would be tossed out.

Our club has a rule no Male/male contact/activity. I've never seen it or known of a problem at our club but I'm sure they'd be kick out.

 

Quote

I have to say in regards to the original thread here that I prefer not to see these people at the swing clubs.

That's why we have different clubs, people go to get the experience with like-minded people in the things they are interested in. This is the core of our society, even our kids have clubs - 4H, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, the list goes on. I've never understood why some people feel the need to 'crash' a club for the sake of trying to get attention or claim discrimination or exclusion. A club is just a club for people to get together with others who have similar tastes.

 

Quote

In our area they have clubs and groups for these other interests so I would prefer they didn't come to the swing clubs.

Ditto

[Hellboy 15]

I probably shouldn't step into this one, but I will...being "open minded" (a very canned, PC bullshit phrase to begin with) should include a respect for other peoples views, even if they exclude or avoid other groups by choice. If people do not want to be around men who dress as women, then that is their choice and if they care to associate in a private setting, they should be able to include and exclude whoever they want. Personal freedom has to work for everyone.

 

To the original point, in a setting like a swing club where sex is taking place, the "no surprises" rule seems like the best fit. There are only a few people who would not be offended (if any) to find the person they are trying to do the deed with turns out to have the opposite plumbing than they thought. But if the patrons and management have declared it off limits to TV's then tough shit.

 

I don't guess I really have anything against TVs. I find it a rather strange compulsion, but that's just me. It irritates the crap out of me though to hear the crap getting flung because person A's views are labeled "closed minded" because person B does not agree. While being so open minded, person B should respect person A's right to believe, feel, think whatever the hell they want so long as no one's rights are violated.

[Vespertine 31]

It irritates the crap out of me though to hear the crap getting flung because person A's views are labeled "closed minded" because person B does not agree. While being so open minded, person B should respect person A's right to believe, feel, think whatever the hell they want so long as no one's rights are violated.

Bravo!

[midnight hour 16]

Speaking of, we had a trans who was a man who had the operation to a woman come to our New Years Eve social.

 

She was there with a man and she had all the female parts, no male parts...

 

So I know a few asked if she was *gay* I would say not, now that she was totally female with no male parts...and if she was *bi* am I can not assume she is not...because she is a female now...and if you looked at it the other way then it would be a male with a female.

 

I don't care who swims in my pond, as long as they don't try to drown me in it.

[JaeBanks 15]

I can say that the clubs I've contacted here in Detroit have specifically excluded me simply because I'm transsexual ("No, you will not be allowed in here," was one quote). That said, it's their club, their rules. My only problem is that there isn't anywhere else to go. When the rest of you want to swing, you can go to a swing club. When I want to swing, I have to sit on my couch and watch television. I can say that most peeps at a "gay" club *aren't* swingers---just like the folks at your neighbourhood bar aren't. That's why you go to swing clubs! My own feeling would be to agree with those who say "No surprises!", and I'm quite good about that. But I still can't swing in most clubs, and none in metro Detroit. Not because I'm not a swinger, not because I've given someone a rude surprise, not because I can't follow the rules, but because of the way I was born. I'm excluded not for anything I've done, but because I might scare someone.