Photographer Getting Weird

[DWDW2005 15]

Hey all! First off, great board. Its nice to have a resource to go to here for those new in the lifestyle.

 

We have a question to ask the board, but need to do so anonymously , as it may be a delicate situation. So while we will try to provide details, we can't get too specific.

 

To describe us, we are a younger couple (in our 20's), who are pretty new to the lifestyle. We are very much in love, and will be getting married this year. To describe our relationship, we are extremely in love, and consider ourselves to be equal in every respect. We fall on the exhibitionist side of the fence, and have decided not to play with others, as we have both decided that we wouldn't be comfortable with sharing each other. (but being watched is totally our thing!).

 

Anyway, here's the short and sweet of our problem. There is this swing club we've been going to, and being a good looking young couple we get a lot of attention there. Well, we meet this professional photographer who is affiliated with the club, and he seems like an extremely nice guy (he also says that he and his wife are not swingers, he just does a lot of photo work in the community). Anyway, we offers to do a free photo shoot with us (he asked us, we didn’t pursue it), as long as we let him use our pics in his portfolio. So of course we think....score! We agree. He seems very trustworthy, and on his initial meetings with us he even gives us the inside dirt on who to avoid in the club, even though some of the people he tells us to avoid are friends and /or associates of his.

 

We tell him we want not only hardcore pics, but regular ones as well....classy, artsy, what have you. But when he does the shoot, he only does the hard core pics, and steers away from the other kind (although we should have pushed for it, but we didn't). It was ok, but he does a lot of shots where the female half of us is featured (we'll call her Mary) and a lot of solo shots of her, and the few solo shots of him (we'll call him Steve) we had to really push for it. So basically the shoot was much more centered on Mary, when we wanted it to be more about us. That didn't make us feel 100% comfortable, as we are both beautiful and we want shots that feature both of us. I mean, granted they were free, but we didn’t ask for the shoot…he offered it and asked what kind of shots we wanted.

 

Anyway, we think everything is all good, the pics come back great, and he starts emailing Mary. Again, its all innocent, but he is almost too nice. Plus he begins to lavish Mary with praise...so hot, gorgeous, huge fan, the object of everyone’s desires, etc etc. At first signing off his emails with Hugs, and eventually up to Love. Again, it seems innocent at first, but as it continues it just seems weird, but Mary (with Steve's knowledge...no big deal) emails back because there is nothing concrete to base our weird feelings on. We feel maybe we were being too suspicious. He then wants to do another free photo shoot (although he has the pics he needs), and when Mary tells him over email that we want the classy, non erotic ones we didn't get before, he steers back towards doing the hardcore stuff. Then, after making comment after comment about how gorgeous Mary is, but never saying anything about Steve (we are both very attractive), Mary comments in an email that she wishes more people made comments on Steve (and yes we understand that females tend to get more attention). Over the next couple of emails, he states that Mary is much more attractive then Steve and that creates an imbalance in the pictures, and that Steve should be happy to bask in Mary’s glory, and to just be happy that he gets to be with her. He also makes reference to him just being a 'prop' in the pictures.

 

Of course we were offended. Its one thing to make a comment about one of us being attractive, as we both get compliments like that. Its quite another to basically compliment one person at the other person’s expense. Now we are aware that most guys are going to look at the female part of the couple, but the fact the he is a PROFESSIONAL photographer, making those comments was over the line we feel. Plus, we feel that neither one of us has to bask in ANYONE’S glory. We have too much self respect for that. We bask in OUR glory…it is not all about one person. That, and the fact that he keeps wanting to do more free photo shoots with us (when he already has a couple hundred pics of us), is just starting to get weird (like too much of a good thing…definitely a red flag). We are starting to think maybe he gives a lot of free photo shoots away to good looking couples, instead of just us as he mentioned, and that maybe he has other intentions.

 

Again…we are both very secure in ourselves, but this just seems very strange. We were offended, plus looking back it sees that he was taking us under his wing (giving us dirt on others) a bit too soon, when he didn’t really even know us at all…for example telling us not to trust couples where they are just into single females or couples, and not single guys, because then they are probably swinging because the guy in the relationship is pushing things forward, not both (if it were both wanting to swing, then I guess single males would be just as welcome, by his logic). Thing is, before we decided that sharing was not for us, that’s the direction we went...single females or couples (Mary is bi). It just seems that he is trying to get on Mary’s good side, develop quick trust, and make it a Mary and him vs Steve sort of deal.

 

So here's the question...are we both overreacting? Like we said, we both consider ourselves to be equal, and most see us that way. And in our pics, we like them to be of both of us, as we feel that being together is one of the most beautiful things in the world, because we are truly in love and we want that portrayed in our pictures. Its just that when we got that last email, about how Steve is ‘less’ then Mary, how he creates an imbalance in the pictures, how much of a fan of Mary’s he is, how Steve is basically a ‘prop’ for her in the pics, and that Steve should be happy with it and just live with it…taken along with everything else is just raising some serious red flags.

 

If we aren't overreacting, what would be the proper response? We are probably just going to ignore him, and not answer any more emails. Or should we write him back and confront him? What does everyone think?

 

Thanks for your help... Mary & Steve

[Vespertine 31]

He's a predator.

 

I'd ignore him. He probably pulls the same shit with other new couples too. Probably the ones who he 'warned' you to stay away from. They probably know his number already and he didn't want his 'marks' (you guys) to be tainted by negative comments about him.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I don't think you are over-reacting. I do think you were way too trusthing with this guy from the beginning.

 

1. What proof did you have to back up that he's PROFESSIONAL photographer? Anyone can claim to be - and unfortunately, in this type of lifestyle, lots of people do just to get their jollies off.

 

2. Did you ever ask others at the club about him? The hosts for example? To back up what he had told you? To get a feel for how he was with people? He's not a swinger (by his own accounts), so this should have been a strictly professional relationship - one where getting references and checking them should have been very important.

 

This guy is going to be taking pictures of you AND you are allowing him to keep copies for his own uses. You have no idea where those pics are going to end up. You are obvioulsy ok with that thought as you knew that up front.

 

3. You caught all the other red flags. If you haven't by now, I would go and talk to the club hosts about this guy and find out what they can tell you. Again this is not a discretion issue, as he is supposed to be a professional doing a job (even if he's doing it for free).

 

As far as him choosing what to take pics of, that is what you get when you don't pay for it - and sometimes when you do.

 

He says he and his wife don't swing, have you met her? Was she at the club as well?

If not, I have a feeling that she probably has no clue what he's doing. And I think that based on some of his comments he IS hoping to use his photography skills as an in to get laid.

 

Even on just a professional basis, I would not want anything to do with him after his comments to you.

[DWDW2005 15]

He's a predator.

 

I'd ignore him. He probably pulls the same shit with other new couples too. Probably the ones who he 'warned' you to stay away from. They probably know his number already and he didn't want his 'marks' (you guys) to be tainted by negative comments about him.

 

That's what we are starting to think too. It was weird of him to 'warn us' so soon, when he had no reason to trust us with that information, since he didn't even really know us yet.

 

Its funny...but the first meeting we had, another couple joined us (we were all meeting in the same place) just as he was leaving...he said he got a bad vibe from them, but they've ended becoming good friends of ours and we honestly don't see where he could have gotten a bad vibe from them...

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

That's what we are starting to think too. It was weird of him to 'warn us' so soon, when he had no reason to trust us with that information, since he didn't even really know us yet.

 

Its funny...but the first meeting we had, another couple joined us (we were all meeting in the same place) just as he was leaving...he said he got a bad vibe from them, but they've ended becoming good friends of ours and we honestly don't see where he could have gotten a bad vibe from them...

 

Ves is most likely right on with her take that those he's warning you against are people who would "out" him for what he truely is.

 

To add to that, I would say that discretion is a huge part of this lifestyle, and while there is a question for many people over whether or not "warning" someone against someone you KNOW is a problem is a lack of discretion. I would say that giving you a running list of who's who, etc as he did is a lack of discretion and should be a huge red flag on it's own.

 

I'd venture to say that once you stop dealing with him, you too will be on his black list that he passes on to future targets.

[DWDW2005 15]

I don't think you are over-reacting. I do think you were way too trusthing with this guy from the beginning.

 

1. What proof did you have to back up that he's PROFESSIONAL photographer? Anyone can claim to be - and unfortunately, in this type of lifestyle, lots of people do just to get their jollies off.

 

Well, to be completely fair, he was sponsored by the club (which is very reputable), and he has the profesisonal website up as well.

 

2. Did you ever ask others at the club about him? The hosts for example? To back up what he had told you? To get a feel for how he was with people? He's not a swinger (by his own accounts), so this should have been a strictly professional relationship - one where getting references and checking them should have been very important.

 

This guy is going to be taking pictures of you AND you are allowing him to keep copies for his own uses. You have no idea where those pics are going to end up. You are obvioulsy ok with that thought as you knew that up front.

 

Yeah we should have asked. Thinking back on we were too trusting. As far as him keeping the pics, we are exhibitionists so that part is ok wih us.

 

3. You caught all the other red flags. If you haven't by now, I would go and talk to the club hosts about this guy and find out what they can tell you. Again this is not a discretion issue, as he is supposed to be a professional doing a job (even if he's doing it for free).

 

As far as him choosing what to take pics of, that is what you get when you don't pay for it - and sometimes when you do.

 

Yeah we hear ya. Its all you can expect when you get them for free. But then again, he kept asking us what kind of pics we wanted, and said he would do those as well (never did).

 

He says he and his wife don't swing, have you met her? Was she at the club as well?

If not, I have a feeling that she probably has no clue what he's doing. And I think that based on some of his comments he IS hoping to use his photography skills as an in to get laid.

 

Even on just a professional basis, I would not want anything to do with him after his comments to you.

 

No we've never met his wife...she wasn't at the club. We have made the decision to do no more with him. We loved the free pics (they really came out nice), but its just not worth it to get more. We just weren't sure if we should just ignore him from here on in, or say something. Well regardless, we won't do anything else with him anyway, so I guess its a moot point!

 

Thanks for the good advice guys!

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I would say that if he's sponsored by the club you should be able to accept him as reputable. I still can't help but wonder if it's not doing this sort of thing a lot and no one has reported him to the club owners. I would definately go to the club owners and tell them your experience (including his warnings of others - not necessarily naming who or what he said, but just the same things you told us here). They need to know about these things, as it reflects on their club and I'm sure that is not the image they wish to portray.

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

Read your first post again and again and you'll see that everything you suspect of him and see as a red flag is exactly what makes this guy a low life.

 

Have nothing to do with him ever again.

 

As Julie suggested, talk to the club owners about him.

 

This was an important lesson, not just in regards to swinging, but life in general.

 

Learn from it. That will be the one positive you will take from this experieince.

 

LM

[DWDW2005 15]

Read your first post again and again and you'll see that everything you suspect of him and see as a red flag is exactly what makes this guy a low life.

 

Have nothing to do with him ever again.

 

As Julie suggested, talk to the club owners about him.

 

This was an important lesson, not just in regards to swinging, but life in general.

 

Learn from it. That will be the one positive you will take from this experieince.

 

LM

 

Yeah...you're definitely on point with that comment. I guess we are just very trusting (Mary more so than Steve! Steve was the first one to start seeing red flags). He was just extremely nice, and seemed to be friends with others at the club as well...so...

 

Who knows, maybe we are being a little too concerned, but yeah just in case we are not dealing with him anymore.

 

Again thanks all for the good advice. Its reassuring to hear that we are not the only ones who feel this way!

[JakenReenie 17]

One thing Reenie and I have learned over the years:

 

When the warning bells go off and the red flags go up, heed them even if you're not quite sure what they mean. Where there's smoke, there's fire and your brain understands that more quickly on a subconscious level.

 

Every time we have had an uncomfortable feeling about a person or situation, it's turned out to be correcct. I guess you coult call it "creepdar"

[bear_and_babe 68]

I agree that this guy seems like he was praying on you as newbies.

 

I do have 1 question for you. You say he wanted to use the photos of you in is portfolio. Did he have you sign a "Model Release Form"? If he didn't then that is a huge red flag for me. Most of my family are "Professional Photographers" and I had to sign a model release for them to display a photo of me and my child. And that was family. I would be worried what he is going to do with these photos. I think I would keep clear from this guy. He sounds like he is up to no good.

[DWDW2005 15]

I agree that this guy seems like he was praying on you as newbies.

 

I do have 1 question for you. You say he wanted to use the photos of you in is portfolio. Did he have you sign a "Model Release Form"? If he didn't then that is a huge red flag for me. Most of my family are "Professional Photographers" and I had to sign a model release for them to display a photo of me and my child. And that was family. I would be worried what he is going to do with these photos. I think I would keep clear from this guy. He sounds like he is up to no good.

 

He only made Mary sign one, not Steve (and we're not married). We asked about Steve signing one, and he said not to worry, that all he needed was Mary's signature.

 

We thought that was a bit odd. Wouldn't he need one from both of us?

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

He only made Mary sign one, not Steve (and we're not married). We asked about Steve signing one, and he said not to worry, that all he needed was Mary's signature.

 

We thought that was a bit odd. Wouldn't he need one from both of us?

Only if he was planning on using your photos, which tells me he wasn't intending to use your pictures, he was only after Mary and her pictures, and what he could do with them.

 

I would guess he profits by taking pictures of trusting people like yourselves. He probably has a "pay-for-view" website of nudes and porn and Mary's pictures are now on it.

 

LM

[bear_and_babe 68]

He only made Mary sign one, not Steve (and we're not married). We asked about Steve signing one, and he said not to worry, that all he needed was Mary's signature.

 

We thought that was a bit odd. Wouldn't he need one from both of us?

 

 

Just another red flag flying. If he was going to display Steve's photos, then yes, he should have signed also. But it seems that all he was after was Mary's pic's. This guy sounds like he found a new way to be a pic collector. He takes the photos instead of having people send them to him through e-mail. Very sleazy.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Only if he was planning on using your photos, which tells me he wasn't intending to use your pictures, he was only after Mary and her pictures, and what he could do with them.

 

I would guess he profits by taking pictures of trusting people like yourselves. He probably has a "pay-for-view" website of nudes and porn and Mary's pictures are now on it.

 

LM

 

Yep, I was thinking this same thing. Combined with the fact that you said most of the pics of the two of you together focused on her and didn't really include you, and he took very few pics of you (probably just enough to let you know that there were some).

 

I would be very worried about where these pics are going to end up, unless you have no qualms about Mary ending up on a website somewhere. Sadly, since she has signed a model release there really isn't anything you can do now.

[curiousRI 15]

Very sleazy.

 

My sentiments totally!!

[intuition897 2,179]

What a sleazebag. I'd have to say the first red flag that would've gone up for me was the fact that he was a 1) married, 2) self-admitted non-swinger, 3) at a swingers club without his wife. He was prowling for some fresh meat, and guess what? You got to be it.

 

I can totally understand how something like this can happen. I tend to be too trusting myself which is why it's so great the Mr. intuition is a tad more cynical It's easy to tell yourself that you're just being paranoid.

 

I'd be worried about the pictures too. Mary might've signed a release form, but Steve didn't. Wouldn't that mean that any pictures with him in them would be protected by law (even if he was only a prop, he's prop with rights! )? **Note the sarcasm here. I'm just trying to be a smartass Steve. I mean if it came down to that. Mary's pictures, unfortunately, could end up anywhere which is pretty scary. At least they weren't 'group' photos, right?

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

What a sleazebag. I'd have to say the first red flag that would've gone up for me was the fact that he was a 1) married, 2) self-admitted non-swinger, 3) at a swingers club without his wife. He was prowling for some fresh meat, and guess what? You got to be it.

 

I can totally understand how something like this can happen. I tend to be too trusting myself which is why it's so great the Mr. intuition is a tad more cynical It's easy to tell yourself that you're just being paranoid.

 

I'd be worried about the pictures too. Mary might've signed a release form, but Steve didn't. Wouldn't that mean that any pictures with him in them would be protected by law (even if he was only a prop, he's prop with rights! )? **Note the sarcasm here. I'm just trying to be a smartass Steve. I mean if it came down to that. Mary's pictures, unfortunately, could end up anywhere which is pretty scary. At least they weren't 'group' photos, right?

 

Unfortunately, no. The guy can use the pics as long as they don't show Steve's face. And from the sounds of it, he made every effort to leave out all but the stunt part of Steve in most of the pics.

[DWDW2005 15]

Unfortunately, no. The guy can use the pics as long as they don't show Steve's face. And from the sounds of it, he made every effort to leave out all but the stunt part of Steve in most of the pics.

 

Well, we can't say that...in all fairness...in a lot of the pictures (but certainly not all), Steve does have his face in them. When we said that he was focusing on Mary, we meant her being the one to do solo shots, and most of the camera being focused on her and less on him.

[DWDW2005 15]

I really appreciate all the helpful comments. You guys have really put things into perspective. We sent him a letter saying that we won't work with him anymore.

 

In all fairness, we hate to pass judgement, and as such we won't say anything to anyone, in case it may just be a case of miscommunication. But regardless, we will keep our distance in the future.

 

Again...much thanks!

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

In all fairness, we hate to pass judgement, and as such we won't say anything to anyone, in case it may just be a case of miscommunication. But regardless, we will keep our distance in the future.

 

Again...much thanks!

 

Unfortunately, this response may be what has kept this guy around the club for so long. It's not about passing judgement, the guy is indiscreet (talking to you about other couples in the club) and that is something that most club owners don't want around. Regardless of your own personal experiences with him as a photographer that is something you should report to the club owners, lest he continue.

[Nymph an' Satyr 22]

I would be careful how you inform the club owner about this guy's indiscretions- he does have your nude pictures after all. Unless you reallly don't care if he plasters them all over the internet. With those photos floating around, you do know you will never have a career as a politician right?

 

You should turn him in though. This guy is too weird.

 

By the way, I have a camera should you want some more photos taken. And I promise, no one will be left out

[Guest Mr&Mrs-naughty]

I would be very worried about where these pics are going to end up, unless you have no qualms about Mary ending up on a website somewhere. Sadly, since she has signed a model release there really isn't anything you can do now.

 

That is exactly what I was thinking from the first post.

 

Not only has this guy turned into a weirdo, he is a weirdo with compromising pics of "Mary".

 

Mrs naughty posed once at a house party, not hard core but not something you want mom to see either.

 

I was there while EVERY pic was taken to make sure there were no face shots. I veiwed each pic after it was taken to make sure it was acceptable and these were people we knew.

 

We learned early in swinging, after making our own mistakes, to be careful who takes pics and who ends up with them.

[DBL D 120]

DWDW2005,

 

Being a "Pro" meself, this man is no pro. Oh, he is a pro at some things and like you said, he took some nice shots. It's the customer service where he lacks skill in. I'd probably laugh in his face and tell him you aren't afraid to sue him if he misuses your photos and never work with him again, and warn others in the club. Really, steering you away from his firends?

 

Was this "portfolio" a physical or virtual one? You still have the right to make your own rules even if the "pro" is doing it for free.

 

Maybe it's time he heard from a real "PRO"!, like an attorney

This gent was just plain out of line to say what he did about your man.

 

Male D

[DWDW2005 15]

Thanks guys...we really appreciate the help! We ended up sending him an email from both of us last night, and he wrote back defending himself, and of course saying that we took him out of context....an that he was offended that we even thought this way of him, etc etc. We are really glad we posed this question to the board, so we could get a good perspective on things before he responded. Like we said, we are done with him.

 

Thanks!

[DBL D 120]

He's Offended? Poor Baby! You made the right decision.

 

M.D.

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

...he wrote back defending himself, and of course saying that we took him out of context....an that he was offended that we even thought this way of him, etc etc.

This is typical of how "players" respond once they've been found out.

 

They try to make you feel guilty. It's a game for them.

 

I'm glad you took action right away.

 

If you ever cross paths with this guy, stand tall, look him straight in the eye, he'll get the message that you aren't fooled by him, nor will you be intimidated.

 

LM

[JnCC 24]

I suppose if I were a guy that wanted to take nekkie pics of some cute young thang, I'd tell her I was a "professional photographer" and that I wanted to use her pics in my "portfolio." That would probably work better than telling her I was a frustrated, lonely perv who was going to use them to beat-off in the basement. What's interesting to me is that by using the word "professional" he put you into a mindset in which he was the one doing you the favor.

 

This "model release" you signed - I'm guessing there wasn't anything in it limiting his use of the pictures to his portfolio ONLY, or to how many copies he could make, or how long (6 months, 1 year, etc) they could be used for such purpose? Was there any language restricting commercial use, or upon his ability to sell the pictures to another party?

 

I didn't think so...

 

Wonderful...just fucking wonderful. Mary may already be on a pornsite, or could find herself the centerfold in next months issue of "Open Crotch" or "Young Beaver," but she won't have a nice fat check to show for it. Nope...you'll have copies of the pictures...pictures you would have had anyway.

 

This guy's slick, allright. No doubt about it.

 

Next time, tell the wanna-be photographer that for the first session, he'll have to use your camera or memory chip, and that you'll send him copies of the pics. Explain that if you like his artistic eye, you'll consider a modeling session at his studio, but that you'll need his signature on the release setting forth the actual ownership of the images produced, and the terms under which they can be used. Be tough...you're in the drivers seat here. He needs you a lot more than you need him.

 

Thanks for sharing your story with us. Maybe, once the word gets around about these "professional photographer" assholes, they'll be forced back to their "Studio" at the mall, taking Easter pictures of Junior surrounded by all the cute little bunny rabbits.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

The good news is, that about the worst he can do is put you up on his website. Anything else (and legally even for a website - but if it's his site he can get away with it until someone questions it) and he will need copies of your ID(s) as well as the model release (to prove it's you and that you are of age). So, you don't have to worry about showing up in any major magazines without your knowledge (or proper payment).

[DBL D 120]

Who needs attorneys anyway? Thanks Julie.

 

Male D

[curiousagain 326]

The good news is, that about the worst he can do is put you up on his website. Anything else (and legally even for a website - but if it's his site he can get away with it until someone questions it) and he will need copies of your ID(s) as well as the model release (to prove it's you and that you are of age). So, you don't have to worry about showing up in any major magazines without your knowledge (or proper payment).

 

 

Exactly. Without proof of your age, selling, publishing, or displaying nude photos can put him in close confinement with people he really doesn't want to know. If you find he is doing such with the photos, you have him by the shorthairs and the more he wriggles the more it's gonna hurt.

[twoplayful2 16]

Seemed like a lot of red flags from the start, I really think most would have been a lot more cautious. Maybe this is correct, maybe it's not, but it appears that stroking your ego is the way around that caution so you might want to watch out for that move in the future.

[DBL D 120]

twoplayful2,

 

Excellent thought. We are just trying to do the damage control thing now.

 

A Word To The Wise though!

 

Male D

[todesireu 16]

As a professional shutterbug myself, I was appalled at this photog's behavior. There are WAY too many weirdos with a camera calling themselves "professional". It makes is hard for the real pros to be taken seriously.