Vanilla friend trying to understand

[Guest Mr&Mrs-naughty]

I have posted before (A few times) about a couple friend of ours who I overheard the "she" of the couple telling her boyfriend that she "knew" about us and she didn't want him to expect her to do "That".

 

Anyway, Mrs Naughty and I were over their house tonight and it was just the four of us. She asked if she could ask us a personal question (looking at me, Mr naughty).

 

We said sure (Both thinking in our minds "Here it comes...") .

 

She said "How do you guys do it?"

 

I said "Do what?"

 

She said "How do you guys do what you do with out having a problem with it?"

 

At this point it was obvious to all of us what she was talking about (She was at Mrs Naughties birthday party the night before, which put the icing on the cake )

 

I told her that I don't have any jealousy issues and it is all about having a good time.

 

Then she says that she was raised differently than that and didn't understand. I told her that we weren't raised any differently than her and that it took a long time in our relationship to get to the point that we are at.

 

I told her that it took us getting to the point where we were both secure enough in our relationship to be honest enough with each other to open up our desires to one another.

 

She said she still didn't understand and don't expect her to do it.

 

She wasn't being a bitch about it and we all understood the conversation. It ended there and we went about the rest of the night like old friends.

[Spoomonkey 421]

I think the "vanilla" world (and forgive me for using the term) really has a tough time separating sex and love. I know that is cliche, but it is the truth.

 

If you don't mind me bringing out something from my "minister" background - it is the idea of "one flesh". Like it or not, a Christian ethos is deeply ingrained in American thought. The idea of the "two becoming one" is so limited in our thought.

 

As a youth pastor, once a year I was required to do an event called "True Love Waits". I really struggled with it because it basically left the kids with the thought that marriage=sex. I think those of us who are married - even if we are the few fortunate souls with incredible sex lives - would agree that marriage is so much more and the reality of "one flesh" is so much deeper than two people connecting at the groin.

 

I feel for people who are buffaloed by this. Not because I think that all people should be swingers - god forbid! But mostly because they have such a limited, tightly defined concept of marriage and love.

 

We do what we do because we can; we have this odd strength of relationship that allows us to not get wrapped and warped by jealousy, insecurity and suspicion.

 

It's not for everyone - but I sure wish more people would be as confident in their relationship as so many of us here are...

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

Mr&Mrs-naughty said:

She said she still didn't understand and don't expect her to do it.

 

This part of your post just really jumped out at me. Why do "vanilla" people think or go into almost a panic when they find out your a swinger and assume that your going to try to "convert" them or something? You guys had never approached her about it and in fact wanted to keep it a secret from her and yet this statement sounds like she brought up the rumors she heard to pre-warn you that she did not want you to "expect" her to do it. I just don't get it.

 

At least it sounds like after your conversation and getting everything out in the open they were still okay with the relationship you guys had and all is well.

[Guest Mr&Mrs-naughty]

Mrs Spoomonkey said:

At least it sounds like after your conversation and getting everything out in the open they were still okay with the relationship you guys had and all is well.

 

Actually Mrs Naughty is in charge of her bachelorette party .

They picked her because they knew that she would know how to "Do it right."

 

They asked Mrs Naughty to do it AFTER I heard them have the conversation at the bar that they "knew" we were swingers.

 

But tonight was the first time they asked us about it.

 

I want to add that they really are nice people and they weren't having a "I'm better than you" attitude, they were just inquiring.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

That's good to hear, it sounds like they are pretty good friends and now that they know for sure that your swingers they are okay with it. That is sort of how it was the other night when we were telling this friend from work. She actually seemed relieved to hear we were because although I don't know that she would ever swing she is becoming more open and desires to let her true self come out, so she has found a trusted venue to at least discuss things with.

 

Oh, and I have no doubt at all that Mrs Naughty could throw one hell of a bachelorette party. Hmmmm, did I mention I've never had one

[HotMoCpl 20]

I guess we feel the way Mr and Mrs Naughty do. Even though we're still vanilla, we're working together in the same direction. It takes time to build this into a relationship, and I believe its a little more work if you're a little older. Our raising wasn't so different either.

[intuition897 2,179]

Spoomonkey said:

I think the "vanilla" world (and forgive me for using the term) really has a tough time separating sex and love. I know that is cliche, but it is the truth.

 

If you don't mind me bringing out something from my "minister" background - it is the idea of "one flesh". Like it or not, a Christian ethos is deeply ingrained in American thought. The idea of the "two becoming one" is so limited in our thought.

 

As a youth pastor, once a year I was required to do an event called "True Love Waits". I really struggled with it because it basically left the kids with the thought that marriage=sex. I think those of us who are married - even if we are the few fortunate souls with incredible sex lives - would agree that marriage is so much more and the reality of "one flesh" is so much deeper than two people connecting at the groin.

 

I feel for people who are buffaloed by this. Not because I think that all people should be swingers - god forbid! But mostly because they have such a limited, tightly defined concept of marriage and love.

 

We do what we do because we can; we have this odd strength of relationship that allows us to not get wrapped and warped by jealousy, insecurity and suspicion.

 

It's not for everyone - but I sure wish more people would be as confident in their relationship as so many of us here are...

 

Wow, Mr. Spoomonkey just hit on a lot of the same points that I believe very strongly. Yes, Western culture is deeply ingrained with the propaganda that love=sex=love. And another bad habit that has become not only accepted but ideal is the idea that "The two shall become one flesh". Trouble with that, I think, is that the whole point of marriage has been misinterpreted. Priorities have gotten screwed up along the way and suddenly it's a crime to expect anything more from a marriage than it being a sentence of some sort. Seriously! When two people get married it is not only acceptable, but expected (!) that sacrifices must be made. Otherwise...well they must not love one another. It is expected that they must put put a piece of their sexual selves up on the marriage altar as a divine offering, as proof of how much they love their chosen partner. As if to say, "See? I love you so much, I would willingly give up even a part of myself. I would willingly kill off a part of my personality for you." As though this self-disrespect wasn't enough, this is not the worst part. The worst part is where the other spouse expects this sacrifice to be made and bases the depth of their partner's love on the premise of this sacrifice. Worse yet, society in general upholds and enforces this ridiculous concept! It's just so backward, it's mind-boggling.

 

I must say here that I have NO problem with couples choosing to remain monogamous, but I think it's silly to simply assume that it's the only way because it's the default marriage style. I just can't live with myself following the rest of the unthinking sheep. If monogamy is the best thing for one couple's marriage, that's great! but they'd better not assume it's best for everyone.

 

Mr. intuition and I are invited to a wedding which happens to be on the same date as our 11th anniversary. Undoubtedly, Mr. will be asked to say something at the reception. What do you say to this couple? We almost hate going to weddings anymore, because they are so steeped in these misleading fairy tales. We keep thinking how the cards are stacked against them, how they look so happy and have no idea what they're in for, how much work they have ahead of them. Maybe we're wrong. Maybe they're one of the lucky ones who have it all together and know exactly what they're doing. I really hope this is the case. I'm just skeptical.

 

I think that the very best marriages are the ones, not where "The two shall become none", where both people lose their identities and individualities, thereby becoming less for having come together, but by truly melding together their best aspects, where one person's strengths bolster the other's weak points. And I really believe that these vows that they speak at the altar are not meant to be held against each other in rough times, but they are a public declaration of each others' intentions to love (verb), honour, care for, protect and nurture one another. Cherish each other. And the only expectation should be that this gift not be taken for granted, but respected for its sheer magnitude. It should be a gift, not a right.

 

Ok, anyone else need the soapbox?

[TNT 1,155]

Sounds like you two handled the situation wonderfully .

 

We don't shout it to the world that we are swingers (not yet anyway) but...we don't lie about it either if someone asks us.

 

All you can do is try and explain it to people, they will either get it or not.

 

Teresa

[curiousagain 326]

This brings up a point "Don't expect me to do it". It does seem that people think swingers expect them to do it or want to "convert" everybody, or that it's contagious or something.

[Spoomonkey 421]

In the case of this lady, it does sound like she was just curious - and "oh, by the way" put her cards on the table, too.

 

I think it is neat that the Naughtys have friends that know - having told a few select people over the time we've been "in" it is extremely liberating.

 

One of the things we realized before telling a vanilla friend this week was that - as a single woman - she may feel like we had something in mind. Here she was - alone at our house - and these two people tell her something like this... There was obviously some "back story" to why we told her and why we felt comfortable with her and the timing of it - but still, we prefaced what we said with "we want you to know, first of all, that we have no intentions."

 

She was fascinated, relaxed and left with no more than a good night kiss...

 

I think sometimes people can "invent" motive - other times they can sniff it out.

[Guest Mr&Mrs-naughty]

Spoomonkey said:

In the case of this lady, it does sound like she was just curious - and "oh, by the way" put her cards on the table, too.

 

That's exactly how it went down.

She wasn't being confrontational or accusing.

 

She was more curious than anything else. She was trying to convey that she is cool with it but it's not her thing.

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

Mr&Mrs-naughty said:

She wasn't being confrontational or accusing.

 

She was more curious than anything else. She was trying to convey that she is cool with it but it's not her thing.

Whether your friend realizes it or not, I believe she had a very big moment in her life when she sat down with you two and talked.

 

I think that by saying she accepted you as swingers, even though it is not something she could do, IS a necessary first step toward accepting it for herself one day, IF she chooses to do so.

 

This isn't to say she will swing one day, but I think she came to a decision that could change her life. One day she may fondly look back to that discussion.

[WildMiCouple 325]

LikeMinds321 said:

Whether your friend realizes it or not, I believe she had a very big moment in her life when she sat down with you two and talked.

 

I think that by saying she accepted you as swingers, even though it is not something she could do, IS a necessary first step toward accepting it for herself one day, IF she chooses to do so.

 

This isn't to say she will swing one day, but I think she came to a decision that could change her life. One day she may fondly look back to that discussion.

 

I was thinking kinda the same thing. She's got some friends in the Naughty's that she can see how dynamic their relationship is . Some friends that she could talk to about the lifestyle....if she gets curious.

 

We never new anyone in the lifestyle before we decided to venture in. Would have been nice to be able to openly discuss things with some friends ahead of time.

 

Brett (and Tammy)

[taomaster 15]

intuition897 said:

Wow, Mr. Spoomonkey just hit on a lot of the same points that I believe very strongly. Yes, Western culture is deeply ingrained with the propaganda that love=sex=love.

 

You might find this quote interesting:

 

"The Christian influence on Western sexuality has been to keep us focused on the business of biology and alienate sex from pleasure and love. For the Christian, sex is for procreation; for the [ancient] Chinese ejaculation is for procreation, but sex is for pleasure, therapy and spiritual development. All pleasures of the flesh are deemed sinful in the Christian view, and sex as an expression of love ranks a poor third behind love of God and brotherly love. For the majority of the [ancient] Chinese, the sacred resides within nature, and sexuality as a part of nature belongs to the fundamental design of the universe. Nature is not only sacred but the source of 'medicine'; one becomes holy by becoming healthy. Sex, being a natural function, also is seen as a source of bioenergetic medicine."

 

- Douglas Wile, The Chinese Sexual Yoga Classics

 

So it may not be only the love=sex=love confusion that Western culture is suffering from but a confusion as to whether sex is actually 'OK' or not. If you feel bad about your sexuality it's hard to relax and have an open mind about it.

 

There's nothing wrong with feeling a bit of love while having sex, is there? Maybe the real issue is the neediness, insecurity and resulting poor communication that is based on a fundamentally flawed view of sexuality as something that is 'bad' and needs to be kept 'private' and 'hidden'.

[BradAndJanet 70]

taomaster said:

....

 

So it may not be only the love=sex=love confusion that Western culture is suffering from but a confusion as to whether sex is actually 'OK' or not. If you feel bad about your sexuality it's hard to relax and have an open mind about it.

 

There's nothing wrong with feeling a bit of love while having sex, is there? Maybe the real issue is the neediness, insecurity and resulting poor communication that is based on a fundamentally flawed view of sexuality as something that is 'bad' and needs to be kept 'private' and 'hidden'.

 

Mr. T

I think you're right, taomaster, but I'd say 'American' not 'Western' culture. Europeans don't seem to have as many hangups about sex as do Americans. I seem to recall quite a bit of apoplexy about a nipple on TV, something that would have passed (and daily does) without comment in Europe.

 

It's just a product of our puritanical roots and is unlikely to change in the near future. The more of us that come out to our friends, however, the more likely it is that we'll eventually be tolerated by the mainstream. Never loved, of course, but possibly accepted.

[intuition897 2,179]

taomaster said:

You might find this quote interesting:

 

"The Christian influence on Western sexuality has been to keep us focused on the business of biology and alienate sex from pleasure and love. For the Christian, sex is for procreation; for the [ancient] Chinese ejaculation is for procreation, but sex is for pleasure, therapy and spiritual development. All pleasures of the flesh are deemed sinful in the Christian view, and sex as an expression of love ranks a poor third behind love of God and brotherly love. For the majority of the [ancient] Chinese, the sacred resides within nature, and sexuality as a part of nature belongs to the fundamental design of the universe. Nature is not only sacred but the source of 'medicine'; one becomes holy by becoming healthy. Sex, being a natural function, also is seen as a source of bioenergetic medicine."

 

- Douglas Wile, The Chinese Sexual Yoga Classics

 

So it may not be only the love=sex=love confusion that Western culture is suffering from but a confusion as to whether sex is actually 'OK' or not. If you feel bad about your sexuality it's hard to relax and have an open mind about it.

 

There's nothing wrong with feeling a bit of love while having sex, is there? Maybe the real issue is the neediness, insecurity and resulting poor communication that is based on a fundamentally flawed view of sexuality as something that is 'bad' and needs to be kept 'private' and 'hidden'.

 

I'm going to make a comment here that's based on my religion so this is my little disclaimer: if you don't want to hear anything about my views of God and religion, just don't read this post, okay? I don't want to offend anyone, but religion is a part of life and as such is fair game for discussion. It plays a part in each person's decision whether to swing or not. This is just my opinion.

 

I am actually a Christian, but I can't remember the last time I went to church. I truly don't think that I'm twisting the Bible's words to suit my lifestyle; I'm just interpreting what I see in it realistically. What I see are people getting so hung up on minutiae of the "rules" that they don't stop and think why God made the rules in the first place. He gave me a brain, and I'm not afraid to use it. So if I follow His advice and stop getting bogged down in the fine print and just look at the main objective, the whole point is to keep it simple. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to lead a good and worthy life. You focus on not hurting people, but helping them and recognizing their beauty and potential. You stay honest and do the right thing, regardless of whether or not it's popular. Keep a sense of humour and don't wallow in the negative aspects of life but move forward and keep trying. Lead by example. Use common-sense. Don't take anything for granted, and remember to say thank you. Be a good citizen by being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Be brave and take risks. Respect yourself and your needs equally with those of others. Don't let things get to you. Remember that this life is only temporary, kinda like boot camp for the soul. And recognize a good thing when you see it. I mean, it's pretty basic stuff!

 

No, I don't believe that God intended sex to be some kind of thorn in our sides, a burden of the flesh. If he didn't mean for us to enjoy it, he would not have made it pleasurable. And I really think that if he meant for us to ONLY enjoy sex with our spouses, he would've taken away the desire for sex with others. It's not a cruel joke. Sex was meant to be enjoyed in moderation, just like food, sleep, leisure time, etc. It needs to be respected, but it sure doesn't need to be vilified and/or put up on a pedestal as something to be worshipped in and of its own right. I mean, come on! It's a bodily function. God wants us to get the most out of the life we were given, and we'd be doing Him a disservice if we threw this gift back in His face, saying that it was dirty or wrong, or abusing it just to indulge our selfishness.

 

But apparently we're sick because we don't just automatically believe what we're told by people who (they tell us) have some kind of inside knowledge of such matters. Excuse me for laughing, but I think it's pretty arrogant to believe that anyone has any kind of advantage over anyone else in matters of spirituality. The disciples weren't university educated men. They were your average working joe's. They had ordinary lives that became extraordinary because people suddenly took an interest in them. Everyone has something extraordinary to offer if we'd only take the time to look.

 

And speaking of people in positions of power dictating values to the masses, do you suppose Dr. Phil has an ordinary text-book marriage or sex life? You don't see him taking the cameras into his house and allowing the general public to pick apart and critique his marriage style, yet he has no qualms about judging the lives of others. Swingers aren't any different from anyone else; we're just made to appear so through the lens of the camera and through the (mis)interpretations of people "in the know" like Phil. You know what they say about absolute power... I think I was born in the wrong decade.

[taomaster 15]

BradAndJanet said:

I think you're right, taomaster, but I'd say 'American' not 'Western' culture. Europeans don't seem to have as many hangups about sex as do Americans.

 

As a European living near Brussels ('capital of Europe' - what a joke!) I would beg to differ. It's true, people here are not as prudish or uptight as some of the Americans I've met. But that doesn't mean the hangups aren't there - they're just different.

 

We had a really amusing time at a club a few months back that illustrated this perfectly. There just happened to be some Americans there that evening. What we noticed when watching was that the Europeans were happy to start having sex but were a bit shy about starting a conversation. The Americans seemed to have just the opposite problem!

[twoplayful2 16]

Mrs Spoomonkey said:

This part of your post just really jumped out at me. Why do "vanilla" people think or go into almost a panic when they find out your a swinger and assume that your going to try to "convert" them or something?

 

Before we became swingers we didn't know crap about what swingers really were or how they acted. I think all we really knew was tidbits from news stories or movies here and there. Maybe it never really occurred to us that they were just normal people like everyone else. Obviously we now know different, but all the non-swingers still out there don't really have anything to go by unless they've happened to see the VH-1 or Oprah shows, for what good those did. I can understand how "they" think the way they do though.

[intuition897 2,179]

Before we became swingers we didnt know crap about what swingers really were or how they acted. I think all we really knew was tidbits from news stories or movies here and there. Maybe it never really occurred to us that they were just normal people like everyone else. Obviously we now know different, but all the non-swingers still out there don't really have anything to go by unless they've happened to see the VH-1 or Oprah shows, for what good those did. I can understand how "they" think the way they do though.

 

You're right. If you've grown up all your life eating nothing but bulls**t, been educated that "This is what 'good' tastes like", and then told that "No, cherry cheesecake tastes bad! It's bad for you!"...Well what are you supposed to believe? It's amazing what people can be convinced of if enough people buy into it. It becomes truth. Not all, but many of us came from hard-core vanilla backgrounds with a lot deprogramming that needed to happen. I can still remember equating love with sex. And I was thoroughly convinced. As you say, non-swingers out there really don't have any solid facts to go on. So the myths are perpetuated over and over again. There seems to be more awareness and openness than before I think, but I hate being labeled 'swinger' because people form an opinion about what we do before we can defend ourselves. Without the label, and with simple, intelligent, open conversation it's much easier to explain what we do. Ok, it's still not easy, but people I think are much more receptive if they think it's just a new or different concept. But as soon as you slap on your 'swinger' badge, all the old stereotypes and misinformation come right back. Sad. Really sad.

[JustMrJ 178]

I was raised in a 'Christian' household and my wife was raised Catholic (gotta love those Catholic girls )

 

I would say that I've always been more open minded. And I blame my parents. They taught me to think for myself and encouraged becoming my own person.

 

They taught me responsibility and respect, and all the other things that you need to co-exist peacefully in this world and I know my mother would be appalled if she knew I had swung once before or if my wife and I get to that point. (The closest we have been has been skinny dipping with two of my closest friends at the lake, specifically, the two I had a swing with when I was younger.)

 

Most people don't understand the part about it being fun, and twist it all up to be some kind of trust breaking, cheating, evil, thing.

 

I can honestly say that sex is fun and if consenting adults choose to do so... then by all means GO FOR IT!

 

I think the main hangup with a lot of folks again is what SpooMonkey and others are saying about what is 'ingrained' in us. We've been fed the same line for so long we believe it.

 

My wife and I are best friends first, and 'married' second. We will have fun however we choose because we trust each other implicitly.

 

Good topic guyz, keep them cumming!

[driveajeepnaked 26]

None of "my" friends know about our lifestyle choices, but a few of Mr Jeep's male friends do know ( and are envious of his "fortune" in having wife that "gets it"). One very young couple seemed interested and open minded enough to ask us about our Hedo trip last fall. We invited them over to see our vacation pics and a hot tub visit. We had to find our bathing suits for their visit!! Next time they came over a few weeks later, they had booked their Hedo trip, and stripped down to "practice" for Hedo in our hot-tub!!

 

Even though they are not into swinging, they respect our choices, and enjoy the nekkid freedom they get in their visits to our house. They are true exhibitionists, and we are happy to entertain them...