Swinging and Christianity

[jstlkng 15]

Just so you will know we am not trying to bring out all the narrowminded condemners of swinging. We have already had preached to us about all the things that are wrong with swinging/extramarital sex. As Christians, we don't buy much of what organized Christianity has to say about sex outside marriage. So...here is our question. If you are a Christian (defined as one who trusts in the power of Jesus to save one from himself) how you are able to enjoy swinging without guilt? And please don't assume we are suffering from some deep seated guilt or emotional complex. We just want to know what others think on this subject.

[VegasLee 1,486]

HI there,

 

Here is a whole site dealing with your question. Done very well. You might want to check it out.

 

http://www.libchrist.com/

 

Good luck to you.

[intuition897 2,179]

Hi jstlkng!

 

I am Christian, too. I'm not perfect. Not by a long shot. It's a rare night that I go to bed not ashamed of something I did that day. But our sexual preferences are not on that list. Mr. intuition is not overly religious, but I think he just keeps his business with God between himself and the Big Guy and doesn't talk to anyone about it. However I was raised Anglican and then later Free Methodist. In recent years I've drifted away from 'conventional' Christianity and dislike being pigeon-holed by any one denomination. That's just something people do, and I don't think it's what God intended.

 

Although I haven't studied it formally and so cannot say for certain whether or not it's true, I feel that the theory that Christianity has been warped, bent, adulterated and bastardized over the years by people with less that pure motives and too much power for their own (and other's) good, is one that seems logical considering the nature of men. It has proved, indeed, to be a remarkable tool by which the masses might be controlled...with the right puppeteer pulling the strings. That is not to say that devotees are entirely misguided, but I think that there are many traditions that could stand to be re-examined if not done away with altogether. In a perfect world, we should do away with the idea that sex is something to be worshipped. I'm sure God only intended it to be used with respect and moderation, not the fear, contempt, and awe with which it is regarded now. It's something to be enjoyed and savoured as part of the rich life that God has created for us. It is something that we do to express ourselves with one another...in many capacities! And the expression of deep love between a husband and wife is only one of the positive ways it might be used. I just think God has bigger things to worry about than Slot A and Tab B.

 

Just my take on things. Hopefully Spoomonkey will respond to this thread; I would enjoy reading his thoughts on this.

[Alura 2,774]

While I would not presume to call myself a "Christian," Jstlkng, I do have great respect for the man we call Jesus and his teachings. Jesus never said a great deal about sex and never seemed to think of it as a deadly sin.

 

Saul of Tarsus, (Saint Paul) had a great deal to say. It was he, not Jesus, who introduced the idea that the wrong sex act could send someone to Hell.

 

Paul was not so much against sex in general. He had a more exact focus. He thought God was very pissed off that mankind had crucified his son and was planning to end the world immediately. Saul was always surprised when he woke up in the morning and the world was still revolving.

 

Paul felt Christians should spend their time thinking about Christ and Heaven. Anything else was not preparing them for the afterlife.

 

When the Roman Emperor Constantine the First declared Christianity the official religion of the Holy Roman Empire and moved the capital from Rome to Constantinople, he ordered a group of scribes to assemble to Bible. Saul of Tarsus' writings were included.

 

Jstlkng asked:

 

We just want to know what others think on this subject.

 

In short, those who think sex is a sin are following the teachings of Saul of Tarsus, not Jesus.

 

Mr. Alura

[Alura 2,774]

Intuition wrote:

 

Mr. intuition is not overly religious, but I think he just keeps his business with God between himself and the Big Guy and doesn't talk to anyone about it.

 

Good for Mr. Intuition, Intuition. That's exactly what Jesus taught people to do in the Sermon on the Mount. I think it's somewhere around the sixth chapter of Matthew, but don't remember for sure.

 

Mr. Alura

[jstlkng 15]

Hi jstlkng!

 

In a perfect world, we should do away with the idea that sex is something to be worshipped. I'm sure God only intended it to be used with respect and moderation, not the fear, contempt, and awe with which it is regarded now. It's something to be enjoyed and savoured as part of the rich life that God has created for us. It is something that we do to express ourselves with one another...in many capacities! And the expression of deep love between a husband and wife is only one of the positive ways it might be used. I just think God has bigger things to worry about than Slot A and Tab B.

 

Just my take on things. Hopefully Spoomonkey will respond to this thread; I would enjoy reading his thoughts on this.

 

Well intuition you have good insight I believe. Thanks for you input and the input of others who have responded. Its my personal belief that the expression of deep love between a husband and wife transcends sex in that the sex act itself is designed to be self satisfying. So what I say, think and do in all other matters is far more important as a way of saying "I love you" than the act of sex itself. In fact, a simple "I love you" may be more stimulating to my wife than any amount of sexual pleasure I can give her. I know it is for me when she tells me she loves me.

[sammy65Missouri 15]

Our views are that behaving like a Christian has a lot less to do with interpreting age old texts, fables, stories, and other assembled teachings (the Bible) and has a lot more to do with behaving in a manner in which makes the world a better place to live. We do not believe that sexuality has anything to do with religion or morality. Morality to us is teaching your children to respect their elders, to give back to the community, to have compassion for those less fortunate and respect others' property to name a few. I was raised (he) a Catholic and represented my class for confirmation and was an alter boy blah blah blah but one of the things I relealized early on was that those very people that were the so called church leaders were not the nicest people in the church and terribly cruel to others less fortunate. This, to me, meant that religion had turned into a social club using the premise of religion to justify un-christian behavior. Now that I am older I have chosen to divorce the church's interpretation of what constitutes the correct behavior in life and just run my life in a manner in which I am happy with always looking for ways to be a better person. Like the post above I am sure our creator has a little more to worry about then the smallest aspects of our lives in the bedroom.

[Spoomonkey 421]

The problem with a lot of advice you will receive is that the definitions will differ widely.

 

For example, I respect Alura greatly and agree completely that Paul is a pain in the ass. The problem is, one of our BEST arguements for swinging, from a biblical perspective actually comes from Paul in the book of Galatians. Removing Paul actually makes it more difficult to understand swinging as "doable."

 

For many Christians, adjusting our moral compass is simply not as easy as removing portions of the Bible that we do not like. A more satisfying approach is to wrestle with the entire Bible - and discover the contextual view of sexuality, from Law to Grace. For me, any arguement that simply ignored sections of the Bible were unsatisfying and felt hollow - because while Paul certainly was not Jesus, many Christians accept the entire Bible as being inspired by God and, therefore, view the entire Bible as truth - as annoying and challenging as that can often be.

 

Coming from this perspective does challenge us to a much higher standard of study and introspection - it isn't easy to reconcile one's traditional beliefs with swinging. It is, no doubt, a departure from everything we have been taught about sex. An exhuastive look at how a Christian, such as myself, who believes the Bible from "Genesis to maps", can come to the conclusion that the Bible does not condemn swinging - and that it is okay - would take up a lot of swingersboard bandwidth. So, I won't go there.

 

But, I will quote a scripture that sums up why I am comfortable with it and why I can swing without guilt on Saturday night and go to church on Sunday morning:

 

"Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:10

 

Spoomonkey

[Alura 2,774]

"Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:10

 

A beautiful sentiment, Spoo. Thanks for posting it.

 

Paul was an enigmatic character indeed and a man of contradictions.

 

Chapters eleven through fourteen, however, give better insight into the mindset of Paul, in my opinion.

 

Thanks for the nice compliment, Spoo, the respect is mutual. But you can also be very, very funny! ...and that's a real plus!

 

Thanks for all you contribute here.

 

Mr. Alura

[dayhiker 83]

Hi,

I've read this thread. As some of you know I'm a Christian. I can't swing as my wife thinks its a sin. After spending the last year studing what the Bible says about sex, I don't see it as a sin. I've told my pastors at church. They werrn't too happy. A lot of people in the Bible were married and had sex with others. Ya, most were men that had several wives.

 

Anyways, I did a study on what the Bible says about adultry. Its 12 pages long, so no suitable to post here. My pastors have read this study and didn't have anything to say other than they didn't beleive as I do.

 

Let me know if you'd like to read it and I'd be glad to send it to you.

dayhiker

[Alura 2,774]

I erroneously wrote:

 

Chapters eleven through fourteen, however, give better insight into the mindset of Paul, in my opinion.

 

Of course, I meant to say "verses." Sorry for the slip of the mind.

 

Mr. Alura

[TwstOFate 15]

I, like Mr. Alura, am no christian. In fact I probably fall under the agnostic category. My feelings on the subject lean more toward seeing the stories relayed in the bible as allegorical. Much like Aesop, the stories are designed primarily to reinforce social mores and promote common sense. 4,000 years ago in small isolated villages, where sex was primarily for procreation (See Abraham bedding his wife’s slave to produce an heir) sexual monogamy was a necessity. Even if procreation wasn’t the only motivating factor, without birth control, it was quite often the end result. It was to the benefit of the tribe to know exactly whose offspring belonged to whom. You wouldn’t want have brothers and sisters creating branchless trees so to speak.

 

Additionally, in that time, marriages were more of a business contract than an enterprise based love, desire and mutual respect. Almost all business partnerships have built in non-compete clauses.

 

It would appear to me that this commandment, adultery, is designed solely to preserve the family unit and the stability of the community. In my observation of the good people on this board and the few that we’ve met in person is that their extramarital adventures have posed no threat to either their “family unit” or to society as a whole. In fact, with a greater than 50% divorce rate in this country, it would appear that the communication and trust needed to engage in this lifestyle might actually be serving a greater societal good.

[Chicup 41]

The nice thing about being an atheist is I don't have to worry about Paul

[djjwp 129]

Well, I for one do not believe that there is anything man and wife can not do as long as they do it together. We have been forgiven and the price paid as far as I’m concerned. I celebrate that every Easter.

 

I refuse to subscribe to the guilt that organized religion uses to run their business. My relationship is a one on one relationship with God and just as I love my children and forgive them for all they do wrong, I know he does the same for me in all my “weaknesses”. :rollseyes

 

I could get into my experiences with “good Christian church goers” but that is not what you asked for. I’ll leave it at a quote of Ralph Waldo Emerson’s: What you are speaks so loud; I can not hear what you say.

[lovedoctor 15]

 

But, I will quote a scripture that sums up why I am comfortable with it and why I can swing without guilt on Saturday night and go to church on Sunday morning:

 

"Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:10

 

Spoomonkey

 

We are sure growing to love you Spoo!

[Lustman 15]

I am a Christian too but believe God gave us the ability to experience pleasure and not limit us to just one person

[dayhiker 83]

Lustman,

I'm curious if you studied the Bible to get that answer? Or did you

just feels God created men to get horny often when we are young

and society says we aren't to get married till 10 yrs later so God

wouldn't ask us to be celebate thru that period! Or something else?

 

dayhiker

 

I am a Christian too but believe God gave us the ability to experience pleasure and not limit us to just one person

[WesternSwing 504]

I refuse to subscribe to the guilt that organized religion uses to run their business. My relationship is a one on one relationship with God and just as I love my children and forgive them for all they do wrong, I know he does the same for me in all my “weaknesses”. :rollseyes

This is why although I was rasied Greek Orthodox, and my wife Southern Baptist, we both drifted to Paganism/Wicca. We strongly believe that too many don't practice the tolerance they preach. In Wicca it is:

 

Bide the Wiccan Law Ye Must,

In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust,

Eight Words the Wiccan Rede Fulfill:

An Ye Harm None, Do as Ye Will.

And Ever Mind the Rule of Three:

What Ye Send Out, Comes Back to Thee.

Follow This With Mind and Heart,

And Merry Ye Meet, and Merry Ye Part.

 

You can't get much more tolerant then: An Ye Harm None, Do as Ye Will. Too much of Christianity was wrapped up in judging us about what we were doing instead of worrying about what they were doing.

 

So we don't have to reconcile our swinging with religion. But the Mrs. Southern Baptist upbringing creeps in sometimes, but even that is getting less and less these days.

 

Mr. WS

[disqreetcouple 15]

Well the problem is that Christianity is not based on Judgement unlike what you see today. Christianity is based on love. Read the Bible without question and you will see plenty of that. Here is the only kicker I have with the love quote out of the Bible. Are you saying that every time you swing it is out of love for the other person and not out of lust? I'm just asking because this is the part I struggle with on swinging and Christianity.

[Sexyone 15]

I was raised Catholic, but with all the nonsense going on in the Catholic Church, I now also keep my business with God just between the two of us.

 

I agree with those who say that whatever you do with your spouse is your

own business and no one should judge that. I also believe that what you do

on your own time and who you do it with is no one's business.

 

Life is much to short to worry about such things. I think God judges us by

how we treat each other and what's in our hearts, and we should be more

concerned about that than anything we might be doing in our sex lives.

 

Just my 2 cents.....

[Spoomonkey 421]

Here is the only kicker I have with the love quote out of the Bible. Are you saying that every time you swing it is out of love for the other person and not out of lust?

 

Absolutely not.

 

I have never loved any woman that I have "swung" with. I have liked a few of them quite a bit and occassionally developed friendships, but love? No.

 

The point is that love is the fulfillment of the law - i.e. "love your neighbor as you love yourself." In other words, I am not doing what I am doing out maliciousness or with any ill motivation.

 

I am not "coveting" my neighbors wife, because I have no intention of stealing her away. Further, I try to be very mindful of the "state of the union" of the couples we play with - are they solid? Are they in this for the right reasons? (Tough to know for sure, but certainly worth paying attention to)

 

I am not commiting "adultery", because everything is done within the boundaries and agreements that my wife and I have.

 

And you'd be amazed how many times we have "lost" a play night because we have ended up talking to new couples about the lifestyle, marriage, communication, rules, boundaries, etc.

 

"Loving your neighbor" doesn't mean "boning them." It means being sensitive to them - and realizing that they are not just some random body that you bumped into - they have to take the experience, good or bad, home with them. And it will be a part of them and their marriage - just as it will be a part of us.

 

C.S. Lewis said it this way - and I am paraphrasing because I am too lazy to walk to the bookshelf - "If you know what hurts you, you know what hurts others." While this advice doesn't work for sociopaths, it is a great guideline to those of us who want swinging to be enriching - to ourselves and our playmates.

 

Spoomonkey

[Charles 15]

We are talking about love... hmmm, the post's begs the question, "Is swinging about love?" I love my partner, but do I "love" the person I swing with? I would suggest not. Therefore, i don't think I can appeal to the 'love' passages for direction here.

:-)

[Spoomonkey 421]

We are talking about love... hmmm, the post's begs the question, "Is swinging about love?" I love my partner, but do I "love" the person I swing with? I would suggest not. Therefore, i don't think I can appeal to the 'love' passages for direction here.

:-)

 

Really?

 

So - do you love your neighbor the same as you love your wife?

 

Or is it possible that the greek language actually has multiple words that are translated into "love"? (Actually, it is quite possible, because that's actually what happened) The Bible says "love your neighbor as yourself" - not "love your neighbor as your wife."

 

:rollseyes

 

I think this particular "love passage" is very appropriate. And reading this thread completely, and putting the statements in context, will make that rather obvious.

 

Spoomonkey

[kccple 15]

I, like Mr. Alura, am no christian. In fact I probably fall under the agnostic category. My feelings on the subject lean more toward seeing the stories relayed in the bible as allegorical. Much like Aesop, the stories are designed primarily to reinforce social mores and promote common sense. 4,000 years ago in small isolated villages, where sex was primarily for procreation (See Abraham bedding his wife’s slave to produce an heir) sexual monogamy was a necessity. Even if procreation wasn’t the only motivating factor, without birth control, it was quite often the end result. It was to the benefit of the tribe to know exactly whose offspring belonged to whom. You wouldn’t want have brothers and sisters creating branchless trees so to speak.

 

Additionally, in that time, marriages were more of a business contract than an enterprise based love, desire and mutual respect. Almost all business partnerships have built in non-compete clauses.

 

It would appear to me that this commandment, adultery, is designed solely to preserve the family unit and the stability of the community. In my observation of the good people on this board and the few that we’ve met in person is that their extramarital adventures have posed no threat to either their “family unit” or to society as a whole. In fact, with a greater than 50% divorce rate in this country, it would appear that the communication and trust needed to engage in this lifestyle might actually be serving a greater societal good.

 

Adultry to me always had a element of Cheating! If both are agreeable with swinging, is it Adultry??

[dayhiker 83]

Adultry to me always had a element of Cheating! If both are agreeable with swinging, is it Adultry??

 

kcple - your right about adutery having an element of cheatin in it. At least in todays wester culture that seems to be the pronominate aspect most of the time.

 

When you look at marriage historically you find marring for love has only happened over the last 200 years. Before that marriage was more enonomic/political.

 

I'm reading a book, "Marriage, a History" right now. Its very good. well written and very informative. The thing I've learned is that preachers today preach as if our marriages are exactly like the marriages in Bible times. They are not. Well, I do like my wife and I being equal. I give her the same freedom many of the men in Bible times had.

 

dayhiker

[WesternSwing 504]

Adultry to me always had a element of Cheating! If both are agreeable with swinging, is it Adultry??

From Wikipedia:

 

Adultery is generally defined as consensual sexual intercourse by a married person with someone other than their lawful spouse. As there is usually an implicit or explicit agreement between spouses to not have sex outside the marriage, the common synonym for adultery is infidelity as well as unfaithfulness or in colloquial speech, cheating.

 

A marriage in which both spouses agree that it is acceptable to have sexual relationships with other people is termed open marriage and the resulting sexual relationships are generally not considered adulterous, at least from a non-legal standpoint.

 

So there you have it.

 

Mr. WS

[intuition897 2,179]

Shazam! There it is, WS!

 

In one of my debates on the Oprah message boards, I was challenged with the definition of adultery. I said, of course, that what we do is not adultery, because adultery is synonymous with betrayal, deceit, dishonesty, etc. THAT'S what made it wrong! What we doesn't fall under that category, and therefore is not adultery.

 

So some smart-ass posts the definition from the Merriam-Webster dictionary: "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; also : an act of adultery " In response, I asked "who says Merriam-Webster is the ultimate authority on the definition of adultery??" The response was, "The American people do, that's who!!"

 

The people do. Uh-huh... Well then. Maybe that's the problem.

 

Many people claim to be atheists or non-religious, but still they adhere to the same principles and traditions that organized Christianity holds dear. The notion that sex outside of marriage is wrong, for example. I dunno, maybe it has to do with the extent to which Christianity has impacted our culture... But anyway, what I'm wondering is, if we completely removed every trace of religious influence from our decision making processes, would we still consider the act of having sex with someone other than our spouse wrong? I know that this question borders on blasphemy for some, but in the interest of finding the truth, sometimes we have to ask the questions that we're afraid to ask. I know for Mr. intuition and me, it would not seem sinful. This leads one to ask the question: "Why, then, is adultery considered wrong in God's eyes?" After pondering the question, and meditating on the nature of God, I came to the realization that His message is very simple: "Just love one another and be happy." It is so staggeringly simple. Sin is a negative force. It is what hurts and detracts from harmony and unity and peace. Swinging - for us - adds to inner and outer harmony, unity and peace. It does not harm anyone. And if anyone is ever hurt, it is not the sex that does it.

 

So anyway, to me, the idea that the people can have the audacity to define adultery in such a way is just silly. And that they think they have the right to determine for the rest of us just what is and isn't sin is absurd. Check Romans 14.

[WesternSwing 504]

Shazam! There it is, WS!

 

In one of my debates on the Oprah message boards, I was challenged with the definition of adultery. I said, of course, that what we do is not adultery, because adultery is synonymous with betrayal, deceit, dishonesty, etc. THAT'S what made it wrong! What we doesn't fall under that category, and therefore is not adultery.

 

So some smart-ass posts the definition from the Merriam-Webster dictionary: "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; also : an act of adultery " In response, I asked "who says Merriam-Webster is the ultimate authority on the definition of adultery??" The response was, "The American people do, that's who!!"

 

The people do. Uh-huh... Well then. Maybe that's the problem.

When you figure that the first Merriam-Webster dictionary was published in 1847 in Springfield, Massachusetts (just down the road from where they were burning women for being "witches" just a few generations back) you can see where this definition fits into American culture.

 

Many people claim to be atheists or non-religious, but still they adhere to the same principles and traditions that organized Christianity holds dear. The notion that sex outside of marriage is wrong, for example. I dunno, maybe it has to do with the extent to which Christianity has impacted our culture...

Western religions in general.

 

Here is some more from Wikipedia:

 

In the original Napoleonic Code (1804), a man could ask to be divorced from his wife if she committed adultery, but the adultery of the husband was not a sufficient motive unless he had kept his concubine in the family home.

 

Adultry was not okay for a woman, but was excusable for a man as long as his mistress didn't live with them??? Much of the "rules" written by men in robes have to do with empowering men and oppressing women and their sexuality, because it scares weak men.

 

This leads one to ask the question: "Why, then, is adultery considered wrong in God's eyes?" After pondering the question, and meditating on the nature of God, I came to the realization that His message is very simple: "Just love one another and be happy." It is so staggeringly simple. Sin is a negative force. It is what hurts and detracts from harmony and unity and peace. Swinging - for us - adds to inner and outer harmony, unity and peace. It does not harm anyone. And if anyone is ever hurt, it is not the sex that does it.

An Ye Harm None, Do as Ye Will.

 

So anyway, to me, the idea that the people can have the audacity to define adultery in such a way is just silly. And that they think they have the right to determine for the rest of us just what is and isn't sin is absurd. Check Romans 14.

“Conventionality is not morality. Self-righteousness is not religion."

~ Charlotte Bronte

 

"Morality is herd instinct in the individual."

~ Friedrich Nietzsche

 

Ah but they do have the right, or so they feel. Part of being better, and more righteous then someone else is to judge and disparage them. This is human nature. It's easier to judge others as being inferior then it is to work on making yourself better. At least that is how it looks from where I stand.

 

Mr. WS