Swinging with married m/f whose spouse does not know

[curiousagain 326]

I can imagine the scare. What amazes me, however, is how many have vocalized the concern about gun-toting jealous husbands/wifes who they fear are capable of inflicting physical/fatal harm to their straying spouses etc.

 

I suppose that is a very real paranoia (or reality?) to some of you?

 

I'm not flaming anyone here. Just sharing an observation...

 

It is not a paranoia, it is a reality. People sometimes become violent in those situations or vengeful causing problems with employers and law enforcement. That is why I say, besides the moral and ethical reasons not to do it, I don't think it's a good idea. To each his own, but I don't think it's worth it on every level and for every reason.

[JnCC 24]

JNCC, you and I both ride motorcycles and we both know the risk. But there would be a lot of other risk involved in riding a STOLEN motorcycle that I for one won't take for a myriad of reasons.

 

I thought the slogan was "Ride it LIKE you stole it" not "Ride it stolen".

I hear ya! But c'mon...riding a stolen motorcycle IS a felony in most states, and even I wouldn't associate with somebody who was in the process of committing a felony. I think a better comparison might be to the road-tards who won't ride with, or even acknowledge, anybody who doesn't own a specific brand of motorcycle...usually a large, American made cruiser.

 

Personally, I'll ride with anybody who will ride with me. The bike I'm on could be American, European, or Japanese (I own all 3). It's the experience of the ride that bonds the "real" riders, not the brand of the bike they're on.

 

It's the same in dating...there are certain types of women I avoid, but it's not because I'm better than them, or because I exist on some high, moral plain. I just have prefecences. If one of those "other" women expresses an interest in me, I don't go off on a tangent about how fucked-up I think she is, or how I can afford to be "choosy." I just smile and say "no thanks" and move on.

 

The point is, there are nice ways of saying "I'm not/we're not interested" and there are some that are gratuitously unkind or confrontational. How we respond to people whose lifestyles differ from our own says more about us than it does about them.

People sometimes become violent in those situations or vengeful causing problems with employers and law enforcement. That is why I say, besides the moral and ethical reasons not to do it, I don't think it's a good idea.

True, but the fact is that swinging, even with married couples, brings on a BUNCH of risks that people in vanilla marriages never, in their wildest dreams, have to deal with. I can understand a swinging couple saying "Hey, we're already running our relationship at 'ten-tenths', and don't want to do anything that would add to that risk beyond that which is necessary to meet other people and have fun." What I don't understand is why playing with a couple known to be "married, but not to each other" is inherently more risky than playing with somebody you've met the previous hour in a club, or the previous month on the internet.

 

Maybe there is no rational explanation. Maybe just deciding that it is, makes it so...

[curiousagain 326]

But I stand by my analogy of riding a stolen bike vs one you own or someone has loaned to you. It's not a matter of brand or style. It's a matter of ownership/rights, etc. I keep looking back at my post in this thread and I can't see where I have said anyone who cheats is fucked up or went off on a tangent.

 

If a spouse doesn't want them or their mate to swing, the odds of them greeting the news that their spouse is cheating behind their back with a smile and an "attaboy" are pretty slim. Violence, legal action, unneeded and unwanted drama and character assassination are much more likely outcomes.

 

If the thrill of fucking a cheating wife is worth a high risk of all that, go for it. It isn't going to hurt me any. But, don't act like there is something wrong with me because I don't participate or condone what you do. Live and let live I say.

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

you know I was gonna stay out of this but there has been a good point made here..................

 

Quote

The point is, there are nice ways of saying "I'm not/we're not interested" and there are some that are gratuitously unkind or confrontational. How we respond to people whose lifestyles differ from our own says more about us than it does about them.

 

stolen from another thread isn't this a case of an "assessment" vs. being "judgmental" ?? must be judgmental as there are no basis for assessing his honesty (or lack there of) or just maybe a prejudicial decision overall

 

Gotta give you credit on this one as well, cuz its dead on the money:

 

Quote

There are other people who are either in, or have been in, situations similar to yours who read and post to these forums. However, their wives/husbands also have access to this board, making it unlikely that they're going to post words of encouragement or support.

 

[JnCC 24]

But, don't act like there is something wrong with me because I don't participate or condone what you do...

 

...I can't see where I have said anyone who cheats is fucked up or went off on a tangent. Live and let live I say.

True, you didn't say any of those things...and I'm sorry if I left you with the impression that I thought you had. My comments were directed more towards those who seem to want to light torches, join the assembling mob, and march off to "rid the world of evil-doers."

[curiousagain 326]

np, I try to keep morals and ethics outta such discussions. If for no other reason it's just a practical issue with me. I get in enough trouble by accident, no sense going and looking for it.

[Spoomonkey 421]

ANGEDKY(mr) said:

must be judgmental as there are no basis for assessing his honesty (or lack there of) or just maybe a prejudicial decision overall

 

Really?

 

Let's ask...

 

Coffeetat - how's the spouse feel about this?

 

Come on folks - let's get real here. The ISSUE is that there is a spouse who is being lied to, kids that are looking at a life of seeing dad on the weekends only and lawyers who are about to make a fortune. You want to be a party to that? Go right on ahead. It's not like we are locking the doors to the club to anyone who doesn't show up with a marriage certificate.

 

I just have a hard time believing that there are this many people too beef headed to make that connection...

[Alura 2,775]

Quote

JnCC wrote:

 

What I don't understand is why playing with a couple known to be "married, but not to each other" is inherently more risky than playing with somebody you've met the previous hour in a club, or the previous month on the internet.

 

 

It's inheriently more risky, JnCC, because Samuel Colt didn't invent the Harley-Davidson, Georg Luger didn't invent the BMW opposed twin, and both those cheaters have spouses who don't know what they are doing.

 

A couple of weeks ago a man and his wife here in Tulsa were having an argument. She got pissed off and told him she was having an affair and who with. He got out his shootin' iron, dispatched her, drove across town, gunned down her lover and saved the last bullet for his own head. He left three orphaned kids.

 

Now, this doesn't happen very often but it does happen far too often and it happens everywhere, "concealed-carry" law or not. We'll do whatever we can to avoid such silliness.

 

Mr. Alura

[coffeetat 15]

Spoomonkey said:

Really?

 

Let's ask...

 

Coffeetat - how's the spouse feel about this?

 

My girl-friend is "the spouse" and she feels fine about it. Now, my WIFE on the other hand... whoo!! I'm afraid she might bust out the H&K and go target shooting! Oh wait a minute... I'm not in Oklahoma.

 

[curiousagain 326]

At a former place of employment a man and woman were having an affair with each other. One day the woman was getting in her car when her lover's wife stepped around it with a ball bat. The Wife was finally stopped, arrested and carted off to jail. But, the girlfriend was never pretty again and never walked right. She went straight from sexy to sad in about 3 swings of a ball bat, months of surgeries, and years of rehab.

 

I think I'd just as soon be shot.

 

edit: And while the criminal/divorce attorneys counted their cash, the boyfriend/husband wound up moving from his large home in a fairly exclusive part of town to a small used trailer in the country where most of the salary from his new job went to child support to his ex in-laws who then had custody of his children. You see, he lost his job due to the affair becoming public, the news stories, the embarrassment to the company, etc. I don't think a little illicit sex thrill is worth all that. But, that's just me.

[Spoomonkey 421]

coffeetat said:

My girl-friend is "the spouse" and she feels fine about it. Now, my WIFE on the other hand... whoo!! I'm afraid she might bust out the H&K and go target shooting! Oh wait a minute... I'm not in Oklahoma.

 

So, what you're saying is that your wife might not be happy...

 

So - does that give enough information to say that you are cheating, or is there something else that we are missing?

 

Personally, my reason for not swinging has nothing to do with the potential violence involved. It has a LOT to do with the way you are treating your wife.

 

Someone said that it takes a lot of balls to have a contrary opinion on this board, but personally I think it requires much larger balls to take care of your business at home...

 

But sue me - I'm a romantic

 

And when I say "spouse" I don't use it as a euphemism...

[mwilliams27028 15]

Well I guess this is my first and last post here....

 

My wife and I have been married for 20 plus years and the only time we talk is in a fight and an argument...we have 2 kids and we have talked about separating but when the talk on separating gets down to where the rubber hits the road she changes and gets all lovey dovey...for a couple of days...then it's back to the same old same old.

 

I'm just so tired of being alone and not having anyone to talk with and yes to be with in a sexual way that is enjoyable. With swingers being out of the picture what would y'all suggest?? Is there a place where married people that are miserable can meet and just talk and maybe go further??

[intuition897 2,179]

mwilliams27028 said:

Well I guess this is my first and last post here....

 

My wife and I have been married for 20 plus years and the only time we talk is in a fight and an argument...we have 2 kids and we have talked about separating but when the talk on separating gets down to where the rubber hits the road she changes and gets all lovey dovey...for a couple of days...then it's back to the same old same old.

 

I'm just so tired of being alone and not having anyone to talk with and yes to be with in a sexual way that is enjoyable. With swingers being out of the picture what would y'all suggest?? Is there a place where married people that are miserable can meet and just talk and maybe go further??

 

Being miserable kind of defeats the purpose of being married in the first place, doesn't it? I always thought people got married to improve their lives, not ruin them.

 

Just because someone else is treating you like crap doesn't give anyone the right to do the same to them. I know it's a common enough practice everywhere you look, but the fact that it's commonplace doesn't mean it's acceptable.

 

I would suggest that the next time you got down to the part where the rubber hits the road, you stick to it. Force her hand. The lovey-dovey act is a ploy to keep you there as her safety net. She's afraid of the change. But too bad. Life's only constant is change, so she'd better get used to it. If a person takes her spouse's presence for granted, and feels that it doesn't matter that she's become a person who her spouse would not choose again as a life mate, she'll reap what she sows. It may sound harsh, but reality is what she needs. You can always clean up the mess later and rebuild, but sometimes you just have to strip the marriage right down to the bare chassis to fix the framework. Otherwise things will never be right. It hurts, but it's worth it.

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

mwilliams, glad you posted, stay there are many postings here about communication that may help (swinging aside) !!!

 

Spoo now that the question has been asked AND answered. Your assumptions were correct (not so great of an answer, coffee), but maybe shouldn't that have happened first?? It just provides the vanilla's little better indication of who we are and how we stand. In mwilliams case, he posted and gave some indications of why he was acting in a certain manner. and the replies to his post indicated that what he was seeing wasn't what he thought it was and a possible solution. (credit to intuition, it shows class). It isn't a witch hunt-- over and out

[JnCC 24]

A couple of weeks ago a man and his wife here in Tulsa were having an argument. She got pissed off and told him she was having an affair and who with. He got out his shootin' iron, dispatched her, drove across town, gunned down her lover and saved the last bullet for his own head. He left three orphaned kids.

 

Now, this doesn't happen very often but it does happen far too often and it happens everywhere, "concealed-carry" law or not.

Well, there ya go. It happened once, could happen again, I suppose. If that's all the reason you need to not do something, fine.

 

Almost everything we do involves some element of risk. We weigh the risk/reward of every action, and decide which of those risks we'll assume, and which ones we will not. Intelligent, rational people don't always come to the same conclusions about which risks to take. Motorcycling, recreational flying, skiing, rollerblading, swinging, swimming in the ocean (have you seen all these people getting eaten by sharks?), all entail risks that many people in our society won't expose themselves to. That doesn't make them stupid, or their morals somehow corrupt.

 

Speaking of morals...if a person has a moral objection to the way someone is living their lifestyle, they have every right to voice their dissenting opinion in a public forum. What they DON'T have is the right to belittle or denigrate that person for the choices they've made. That is what we in the alternate lifestyle community ask of our vanilla neighbors. Is it not fair that we be willing to grant the same to them, in turn?

 

By the way...you DO know, don't you, that a significant number of domestic violence related incidents occurs some time after the parties have separated/divorced? So if you're going to avoid playing with "cheaters," you should also avoid playing with anybody who's been in a relationship of any kind within the previous, say, 5 years. Because you just never know when some jilted ex-boyfriend is going to re-enter the picture, guns blazing...

[padoc 1,704]

The two people you are considering bringing into your relationship are not swingers by any stretch of the defination. They are simply and solely CHEATERS. One has to wonder, if they have so little respect for their spouses (who they promised to love & honor), what could they possibly bring to your relationship. Further, by allowing either of them to join you, you become complicit in their deception of an innocent and uninvolved person. There are enough genuinely single people looking for no strings sex out there that you don't need to limit yourselves to these two.

[arami 15]

I am new here, married 35 yrs, my wife simply is not very interested in sex or me being with anyone else...so I can certainly identify with this situation from the married mans perspective. I feel like a very important part of my life experience is dying each day that yearns to be alive, nutured, and enjoyed.

 

Acceptance is the problem as I see it.

 

I have to realize that things aren't broken or unsatisfactory from my wife's viewpoint. She doesn't feel sexual activity is that important to her at this point. She is happy the way things are sexually in our marriage and knows it is different for me. In my mind it has a lot to do with whose view you look at things. My experience is that we change as people over time both physically, intellectually,and emotionally as we walk down the path of life. Some things are what they are and you have to look at the big picture.

 

It is my belief that they are folks who are not as fortunate in being mutually compatible sexually throughout their marriage. It doesn't make them or their marriage bad or necessarily needing to be fixed. It is what it is, and that can be very good. Personally, I am enjoy being married to my wife, we have accomplished a lot together, like to laugh, and share some important common ground.

 

If I accept my wife for who she is today and where she is now as it relates to her needs for sexual intimacy/play, them I am left with some choices:

 

1. Accept the situation as is and forget about my needs and desires around sexual play.

 

2. Find a soulmate in similar circumstances or couple where we may find a fit of mutual needs and interests.

 

I subscribe to the "TINSTAAFL THEORY" that says: There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. It boils down to choices that all have consequences less than the ideal. Many in earlier posts have put labels on these choices so there is no need for me to duplicate that effort. I can only say they are not always easy ones to make...who is to judge what's best?

[Spoomonkey 421]

padoc said:

The two people you are considering bringing into your relationship are not swingers by any stretch of the definition. They are simply and solely CHEATERS. One has to wonder, if they have so little respect for their spouses (who they promised to love & honor), what could they possibly bring to your relationship. Further, by allowing either of them to join you, you become complicit in their deception of an innocent and uninvolved person. There are enough genuinely single people looking for no strings sex out there that you don't need to limit yourselves to these two.

 

Yep...

 

Nice, short, compact answer...

[Spoomonkey 421]

ANGEDKY(mr) said:

Spoo now that the question has been asked AND answered. Your assumptions were correct (not so great of an answer, coffee), but maybe shouldn't that have happened first??

 

Well - I didn't see the point in asking a redundant question since the first post pretty much stated the situation. I only did so because it apparently wasn't as obvious to others...

 

And, if you'd read my response, I stated that my reaction was due to the maddening regurgitation of the same arguments, over and over, from cheaters who believe that their lifestyle is the same as ours. After a while, you can only hear a tune so many times before it simply drives you off your nut.

 

I stand behind what I said.

[LOL_OMG 130]

2 cents from a newbie here...from what I understand about the lifestyle it involves COUPLES or SINGLES who are consenting and all have an understanding of what's going on and what they want. But the people who are cheating aren't either, are they?

 

To those that have less than an enjoyable sex life (or even non-existant) with their current spouse, I would recommend sitting them down and having a long talk. To me, sex is a huge part of a relationship. Without the intimacy you really have just a room mate.

[JnCC 24]

LOL_OMG said:

2 cents from a newbie here...from what I understand about the lifestyle it involves COUPLES or SINGLES who are consenting and all have an understanding of what's going on and what they want. But the people who are cheating aren't either, are they?

From the NASCA website;

 

"Swinging is social and sexual intercourse with someone other than your mate, boyfriend or girlfriend, excepting the traditional one-on-one dating. It may be defined as recreational social sex. The activity may occur at a swing party, a couple-to-couple encounter, a liaison, or with a third person in a threesome. Though single men and women are involved, it is primarily an activity of couples."

 

I don't see anything in that definition that requires that the couples be married, engaged, long-term dating, or anything else. Although the circumstances that brought them together as a couple may be absolutely deplorable to many, if they present themselves as a couple, they're a couple. Maybe not a couple that you would want to share your spouse with, but a "couple" nonetheless.

 

(BTW - When I did this as part of a couple, we studiously avoided any couple who wasn't married, or in a very long-term, LTA arrangement. We knew, and socialized with, couples who were "couples" for the sake of convenience. That is, for swinging purposes only. We suspected that one of them may have been married but playing separately. It didn't matter...we were married, and we expected anybody we played with to have at least the same commitment to their relationship that we did. I.E., rings on their fingers and a common roof over their heads. It was a good rule, and one which I will incorporate if and when I ever re-enter the lifestyle as part of a committed couple.)

 

Quote

To those that have less than an enjoyable sex life (or even non-existent) with their current spouse, I would recommend sitting them down and having a long talk. To me, sex is a huge part of a relationship. Without the intimacy you really have just a room mate.

Oh, I think most couples in happy marriages have HAD that discussion MANY times. I've been there, which may account for why I may seem sympathetic to those who are locked into lifeless, dead-end marriages. In my case, I watched a bright, witty, funny woman descend into the ravages of BPD, and NO amount of effort on my part could get her into treatment. Binge eating added almost 100 pounds to her weight, while binge spending brought us to the verge of bankruptcy (our joint income was in the six-figure range at the time). Our sex life went from "normal and healthy" to "infrequent...and bizarre"

 

All this was occurring while we had 2 pre-schoolers asleep in the next room.

 

In relationships, you have to "dance with who brung ya." (which may be why many couples feel much closer to each other when they start swinging...it's just one more "dance" they do together) But when your life-partner starts dancing "crazy," making lifestyle choices that threaten both you and your kids well-being, you either have to "dance crazy" too...or find another partner. I chose "normal..."

 

No doubt, some cheaters are self-centered, opportunistic, assholes/skanks. But some are basically good, or at the very minimum, well-intentioned people, caught in bad situations. Unless I know beyond a shadow of a doubt why they're cheating, I withhold judgement upon them.

 

Besides, isn't that GOD'S job?

[HappyPeople 17]

Chances are, we could accidentally hook up with a pair of cheaters at a club without knowing it but we'd really prefer not to. We don't do background checks but we do pay attention, if it smells like a pair of rats to us then we don't touch it with a ten foot pole.

 

Why? Because knowing or suspecting that someone is cheating just casts a shitty and dark cloud over the situation for us. We prefer sex with CONSENTING couples, not cheating rats but if we don't pick up on it we don't feel responsible for what ever is going on behind the scenes that we don't know about.

[LOL_OMG 130]

JnCC I was a little bit confused by your reply only because parts if it I think you were agreeing and other parts not lol.

 

Though single men and women are involved, it is primarily an activity of couples

 

That was kind of my point. Single men/women do not = married people who are swinging on their own.....or, cheating. And I made no reference to couples being married...engaged...or otherwise. If they're a swinging couple, they're there together...swinging as a couple.

 

I've been there, which may account for why I may seem sympathetic to those who are locked into lifeless, dead-end marriages.

 

I've been there too, in fact married for 18 years and the last 10 I pretty much had a room mate I called a husband with very little/no sex. I didn't want to get into a whole lecture about the issue, but I have discovered in my years that having no sex makes couples grow apart...which leads to less sex...which leads them to grow apart further. It's something that has to get fixed or you might as well call it quits. I'm very sympathetic, however I know from experience that cheating will not help the situation...nor will it make it go away.

[JnCC 24]

That was kind of my point. Single men/women do not = married people who are swinging on their own.....or, cheating.

Of course they're not. But considering how little effort most couples put into really checking out the singles they play with makes me question how much they want to know about those people.

 

I wonder how many couples can honestly say they know more about a man than his first name and cell-phone number before they invite him to play? My guess, and this is borne out by my own experience, is, "very few." I understand the desire for privacy and the need for discretion among swingers. But as a group, swingers seem to be far, FAR more lackadasical than non-swingers about knowing personal details about their mates...details such as "marital status."

 

I date almost exclusively in the vanilla world, and I consider myself reasonably "successful" in that realm. But I don't remember the last time I found my face buried in somebody's crotch (and vice-versa) without each of us knowing the others last name, home phone number, where they lived, and whether or not they were married.

 

Wait...yes I do. It was at a swing club, about 3 months ago. Hey, she said she was single, and I didn't see a ring. But who was I to question her?

[coffeetat 15]

From the NASCA website;

 

"Swinging is social and sexual intercourse with someone other than your mate, boyfriend or girlfriend, excepting the traditional one-on-one dating. It may be defined as recreational social sex. The activity may occur at a swing party, a couple-to-couple encounter, a liason, or with a third person in a threesome. Though single men and women are involved, it is primarily an activity of couples."

 

I don't see anything in that definition that requires that the couples be married, engaged, long-term dating, or anything else. Although the circumstances that brought them together as a couple may be absolutely deplorable to many, if they present themselves as a couple, they're a couple. Maybe not a couple that you would want to share your spouse with, but a "couple" nontheless.

 

(BTW - When I did this as part of a couple, we studiously avoided any couple who wasn't married, or in a very long-term, LTA arrangement. We knew, and socialized with, couples who were "couples" for the sake of convenience. That is, for swinging purposes only. We suspected that one of them may have been married but playing separately. It didn't matter...we were married, and we expected anybody we played with to have at least the same committment to their relationship that we did. I.E., rings on their fingers and a common roof over their heads. It was a good rule, and one which I will incorporate if and when I ever re-enter the lifestyle as part of a committed couple.)Oh, I think most couples in inhappy marriages have HAD that discussion MANY times. I've been there, which may account for why I may seem sympathetic to those who are locked into lifeless, dead-end marriages. In my case, I watched a bright, witty, funny woman descend into the ravages of BPD, and NO amount of effort on my part could get her into treatment. Binge eating added almost 100 pounds to her weight, while binge spending brought us to the verge of bankruptcy (our joint income was in the six-figure range at the time). Our sex life went from "normal and healthy" to "infrequent...and bizarre"

 

All this was occuring while we had 2 pre-schoolers asleep in the next room.

 

In relationships, you have to "dance with who brung ya." (which may be why many couples feel much closer to each other when they start swinging...it's just one more "dance" they do together) But when your life-partner starts dancing "crazy," making lifestyle choices that threaten both you and your kids well-being, you either have to "dance crazy" too...or find another partner. I chose "normal..."

 

No doubt, some cheaters are self-centered, opportunistic, assholes/skanks. But some are basically good, or at the very minimum, well-intentioned people, caught in bad situations. Unless I know beyond a shadow of a doubt why they're cheating, I withold judgement upon them.

 

Besides, isn't that GOD'S job?

 

Very well said. Thanks for being non-judgemental. I'm sure the silent majority thanks you too...

 

BTW - I too, ride/race motorcycles. No cruisers in my garage, but gimme a Norton Commando or Ducati 999S anyday.

[LOL_OMG 130]

Hunny from what I've read you're neither Silent or the Majority. Spoo's right this issue has been beat to death and it's my last post on it. You're neither single or a couple....you wanna cheat on your wife? I pass no judgement on you...it's your life and the choices you make are yours. But don't pretend that you're something you're not.

 

Mrs LOL

[coffeetat 15]

Hunny from what I've read you're neither Silent or the Majority. Spoo's right this issue has been beat to death and it's my last post on it. You're neither single or a couple....you wanna cheat on your wife? I pass no judgement on you...it's your life and the choices you make are yours. But don't pretend that you're something you're not.

 

Mrs LOL

 

Who's pretending? I was candid in my original post. Yes, I may not be silent or the majority - but I'm also not rude to anyone...

 

BTW, a "couple", by definition, is a "pair", "two" of something - so yes, my gf and I are a couple (of people/friends). Please no rude remarks here...

 

And where did I ever mention I was single?

 

Let me repeat: We are married to different people (that's called cheating to you and the rest of the world, YES). You all swing (that's called letting other people fuck your spouses - can't be any clearer than that) - and THAT'S OK - it's YOUR CHOICE. I don't pass judgement, treat you rudely or call you names.

 

You like or dislike people for whatever reason - and that's ok. I don't dislike anyone here, but I do respect some more than others...

 

Take care all.

[intuition897 2,179]

Who's pretending? I was candid in my original post. Yes, I may not be silent or the majority - but I'm also not rude to anyone...

 

BTW, a "couple", by definition, is a "pair", "two" of something - so yes, my gf and I are a couple (of people/friends). Please no rude remarks here...

 

And where did I ever mention I was single?

 

Let me repeat: We are married to different people (that's called cheating to you and the rest of the world, YES). You all swing (that's called letting other people fuck your spouses - can't be any clearer than that) - and THAT'S OK - it's YOUR CHOICE. I don't pass judgement, treat you rudely or call you names.

 

You like or dislike people for whatever reason - and that's ok. I don't dislike anyone here, but I do respect some more than others...

 

Take care all.

 

Coffeetat, I think the thing that most folks get riled over, myself included, is that you consider what you are doing to be just another lifestyle choice. And while it's true that it's none of our business what you choose to do, we don't see it as such. It's not as simple as "You swing, I cheat... There. We're even." This is just a matter of right and wrong, and if you are uncomfortable being judged on that basis (and we do judge one another in that way), you won't be very comfortable amongst the majority of swingers. At least from what I can see.

 

Many (vanilla) people believe that swinging is absolutely immoral and wrong, and they are entitled to their opinions I suppose. But I can't help but think that they are basing that judgment on inaccurate information, presupposition, and an inability (or fear) to think outside the box. They can't honestly judge something they know nothing about. And after having corresponded with a few folks like this, it's blatantly obvious they know absolutely nothing about the lifestyle.

 

In contrast, though, many people here have had to feel the effects that an affair has had on their lives, and the lives of those they love. Not many people swing, but just about every "couple" has had to deal with the issue of cheating in their relationship. They've been there and done that. It may be the reason that many decided to swing in the first place; because they were sick to death of lying and games. What I'm saying is that they CAN judge whether it's right or wrong, because they've experienced it from more than one angle. They know what they're talking about. When they say nothing good will come of it, they're not just blowing smoke up your ass. They're trying to help. Believe it or not, these people actually care.

 

I'm sorry if this seems like an elitist club, but to be honest, it is. You don't get respect or recognition that you haven't earned. And isn't that the way it should be?? I won't apologize for being discriminating when the bases of that discrimination are high standards for integrity and honesty.

[intuition897 2,179]

JnCC said:

From the NASCA website;

 

"Swinging is social and sexual intercourse with someone other than your mate, boyfriend or girlfriend, excepting the traditional one-on-one dating. It may be defined as recreational social sex. The activity may occur at a swing party, a couple-to-couple encounter, a liaison, or with a third person in a threesome. Though single men and women are involved, it is primarily an activity of couples."

 

I don't see anything in that definition that requires that the couples be married, engaged, long-term dating, or anything else. Although the circumstances that brought them together as a couple may be absolutely deplorable to many, if they present themselves as a couple, they're a couple. Maybe not a couple that you would want to share your spouse with, but a "couple" nonetheless.

 

This portion of JnCC's post caused me to sort of throw my hands in the air and say, "Okay, that's it! We're going to get it from the horse's mouth." The definition of "swinger" has been heatedly debated countless times here. Are married-but-not-to-each-other swingers actually swingers? Or are they just cheaters? I figured who better to ask than the folks at NASCA? So I emailed them, explaining the ongoing debate, and I quoted JnCC's response (the part quoted above) to the definition of swinging. Not trying to crucify you or anything JnCC I just thought that this particular quote summed up the issue rather nicely.

 

I received an email back from the president of NASCA himself, explaining NASCA's view of things:

 

Quote

Robert McGinley wrote:

The definition in the NASCA literature is a description of the activity, not a statement of ethics. Similarly, one can define any recreation, for example, baseball. One who cheats at baseball, perhaps through gambling or using enhancement drugs, is still a baseball player. He is, however, violating the accepted ethics of the sport. A person who swings is by definition a swinger, but if he or she is doing so without the knowledge of their partner he or she is in violation of accepted ethics of the swinging community. In other words, the activity can be properly defined through observation. A statement of ethics is not a definition of the activity but the prevalent opinion of how swinging is to be practiced. I wrote the NASCA definition. It was taken from my doctorial dissertation in 1979. It was not meant to be a statement of ethics. I agree that an unwritten code of ethics has since evolved and is generally accepted by the swing community (lifestyles community). Your statement, that "people who are having sexual experiences outside of their primary relationships without their partner's knowledge, consent and approval" is not consistent with this ethic.

 

Dr. Robert McGinley

Founder and President

NASCA International

 

So. Turns out JnCC is right! Technically speaking, cheaters actually can be called swingers.

 

...All right.....But I don't have to like it. Surrender

[JnCC 24]

Thanks for sharing your communication with McGinley. His comments to you reflect those he made to me about 5 years ago, when I asked him a similar question regarding what constituted a "couple" for the purposes of NASCA events. At the time, my ex- and I were planning to attend a NASCA convention in Reno that was supposedly restricted to "couples only." We learned that certain single males were advertising on both swinger and escort websites for women to attend the convention with them. Obviously, that was unnacceptable to us. Neither of us wanted to find ourselves in a group setting with somebody's whore, or with the kind of guy who would hire a whore under those circumstances. It had happened to us once before, and once was enough.

 

I wrote McGinley, asking if NASCA had a policy regarding men who hire ersatz "wives" for such events. His response was that basically, they don't get involved in the "how's" and "why's" a couple is together. If a man and a woman show up at the door to one of their events, it doesn't matter if they're both married to other people, singles dating, or that one of them is "on the clock." As far as NASCA is concerned, they're a couple.

 

It's a lousy deal, but I don't know how he could have responded any differently. NASCA can't be the "Moral Police" for the entire Lifestyle.

 

Neither can I. Or you, or anybody else on this board, for that matter.

 

Maybe that's the best place to leave this discussion...agreeing that we don't have to "like" every thing that every person does in life. If what they "are" is not what we're "looking for," all we have to do...and all we're really obligated to do...is say "no thanks" and move on. They'll find somebody that mirrors their values...and so will you.

[Spoomonkey 421]

I think one thing that should be pointed out - NASCA isn't exactly a benevolent organization. The purpose of NASCA isn't to police or to define swinging - their purpose is to hold conventions and make money.

 

It is up to the individual swingers to decide what is right and what is wrong.

 

Regardless of "official" definitions, cheaters hurt spouses and children - their own and quite possibly those they are cheating with. You can roll about in semantics all you want, but cheating is still loathsome.

 

It is a very narrow view that cuts out ALL involved in such a choice.

[coffeetat 15]

All...

 

I JUST now browsed to the Cheating vs Swinging area of this forum - and YES... this IS beating a dead horse.

 

I claim ignorance, since I am new here. Had I known, I would have moved on and not posted.

 

Surrender I will no longer comment on the topic, as I KNOW you all are sick of it. I now understand why the comments can be harsh and tempers flare. So let's move on.

 

We now return to the regularly scheduled program...