How to determine if our friends are swingers?

[dallmax1 15]

My wife and I have a fairly active sex life, we’re coming up on 10 years of marriage, and we’ve been together for 12. We often fantasize about FFM; she is no prude, we are pretty wild for the most part. I had never really thought about swinging until we were at a “Pimps and Ho’s” party when a lady at the party told me that she thought that we were swingers. I asked her why and she said because of the way we were dressed. Since the party I have not stopped thinking about the possibility.

 

A little about my wife; she is very conservative on the outside but she is quite wild. She doesn’t care when I kiss her friends or when her friends kiss me (usually when we are out drinking). We go to strip clubs with friends; she will point out other beautiful women when we are out. I am an extremely flirtatious person. It doesn’t bother her; she just usually rolls her eyes. She is not the jealous type at all; here is an example, we were at a Halloween party and I was flirting with our friend, grabbing her ass, zipping down her shirt, kissing her. Now my wife jokes about her friend being my girlfriend. She refers to several friends of ours as though they are my girlfriends.

 

Also, I have a company work party this weekend and I am taking out a coworker because my wife doesn’t want to go and she is fine with that. I am a flirt, but wouldn’t do anything sexual (except for the examples above, which my wife is always present) with anyone because I love my wife, but I love the company of women and love to have a fun time.

 

We were out with my “girlfriend and her husband (Suzy and Bill)” playing pool, couple vs. couple, after the first game I asked if they wanted to swap partners (a little passive aggressive) my wife’s response was “I am too old for Bill”. It wasn’t “No you are sick” Of course my response was “I was talking about pool, what were you guys thinking”. They had a “Sex on the beach” drink special, I asked Suzy if she wanted to have “Sex on the Beach” she responded with “where is the beach” I just looked at her and she reiterated “I don’t think you heard me, where is the beach” I responded with “I was talking about the drink”. I danced with Suzy that night, when she brought us home, she asked that the next time we go out that we invite her and Bill to go in our hot-tub. Suzy also wants to go on vacation with us in the worst way (she has mentioned it numerous times).

 

I have casually mentioned swinging to my wife but she immediately shoots it down with a resounding NO, so I don’t push it.

 

Two part question. Do you think Suzy and Bill are swingers and are beating around the bush “no pun intended” and how can I ask them without jeopardizing a friendship?

[TNT 1,155]

Just because a couple is flirtatious with sexually suggestive comments in a social setting, does not mean they are swingers. They could be or they could not be. The only way to know for sure is to ask.

 

You can either (taken from Mr. Alura)..ask questions that can't be answered with a yes or no answer ....Hey, we saw this program on T.V. the other night and it was about swingers, have ya'll ever heard of such a thing and what do ya'll think about it? Or, just come right out and ask...Hey, you two seem to be very open sexually, are you perhaps swingers?

 

Either way, if swinging is something that you are wanting to explore, talking to your wife is way more important than finding out if your friends are swingers.

 

Teresa

[good times 991]

I agree with Teresa, if your wife isn't open to the idea of swinging yet it really doesn't matter if they are or not.

 

To answer your question though, I would doubt if they are swingers, they could be, but most likely not. Our non swinger friends behave this way all the time yet they are repulsed by the idea of swinging.

 

Their is no way that I know of to ask them while being sure ahead of time that it won't mess up your friendship with them. We had a similar situation to yours and when we brought up the subject of swinging with with our long time friends and it became apparent to them that we might be open to doing it, they never spoke to us again. So even if you try to word it in a non committal way, it can still mess up a long time friendship.

[WesternSwing 504]

I agree also. Sexual inuendo and flirting does not a swinger make. In fact, it's a long way emotionally from flirting to swinging.

 

Mr. WS

[dallmax1 15]

I see the point in what everyone is saying. I am more interested in finding out to try to persuade my wife. I think if anything would happen, it would be a spontaneous event VS. a planned event. So that is why I question if "Suzy and Bill" are swingers. It's just a different approach to attempt to swing. If we did swap and had fun, then she may be open to exploring different avenues to meet likeminded people, E.G., Clubs, Ads, ETC.

[Jester 15]

I personally feel you don't "persuade" your spouse to do this. That tends to take on the sound of manipulation and if a partner is coerced into the lifestyle it is a recipe for disaster. The guilt and resentment will generally tear a marriage apart. It really has to be something a couple does as a couple for the benefit of the couple. To be successful it really needs to be a willing choice by both partners. So having said that, let's hope I don't trip stepping off the soapbox....

 

In your first post you said when you mention swinging to your wife it is met with a resounding NO. That right there is a very clear answer that she isn't interested. Have you asked why? First you have to explore why her answer is no. Don't counter her reasons or try to persuade her why she should think differently, just hear her out. Establish a line of communication that is with out judgment or confrontation. Also, be prepared for her to ask you why you are interested in this. Is that something you have fully thought about for yourself? Your reasons for wanting this? You might find out her no is because of her fears about your motives. I say that because in your posts I get a sense of I want this for me, how do I get her to agree. It may not be the case, but that is how I perceive it.

 

Now you talk about how you kiss her friends, go to strip clubs and she points woman out to you and so on. So she lets you have a little safe flirty fun. That may be all she is willing to do and you might have to accept that. Does she do the same with your friends or other guy's or woman?

 

You friends may not be swingers, they just may be a fun loving couple that flirts around for the entertainment of it. We have a set of vanilla friends where the woman is jokingly referred to as my 2nd wife because we are so close. Yes we have gone on vacations together, gotten naked in the hot tub, danced very closely and kiss on the lips and all. The 4 of us have really good times together and all, but that is it. From what I have seen, it is not unusual for vanilla couples to have that kind of friendship with other couples so don't assume because they go so far, they want to go all the way. Be careful there if you really like the friendship.

 

While being spontaneous can be hot and fun, I don't think getting drunk one night and doing this because it happens is the way to go. To many emotions to sort out after the fact. Don't fantasize that well if I get her to try she will really be into it. That may happen in the movies, but real life is very different. The reactions and emotions are not scripted, they are very unpredictable and should considered before it happens not after.

[swing52001 15]

Wow Jester, you said a mouthful. And I don't think you tripped either. Very interesting insight and most agreeable IMO. I'd like to comment a bit on a couple of things.

You mentioned your close vanilla lady friend who has been naked in the tub with you. I admire your self control and restraint. It that were to happen with me, I'd have a raging erection before you could blink. Then I'd be soooo embarrassed.

I wonder if spontaneity can be planned. If a couple is of the same mind, but wishes not to engage in planned sex with others, rather to enjoy social interaction with others who may or may not become friends and/or playmates, would it be possible and/or probable to have the ground rules and communication guidlines planned should a favourable opportunity arise? Yikes, since it took that long to say it, it might be a lot of work. Might be worth it tho.

 

My apologies for not addressing the original question. It seems simple to me. Ask carefully. Observe quietly. Listen intently.

[Jester 15]

You mentioned your close vanilla lady friend who has been naked in the tub with you. I admire your self control and restraint. It that were to happen with me, I'd have a raging erection before you could blink. Then I'd be soooo embarrassed.

 

My wife and I have done the nudist thing, so to us it is no different then something like that. Just because they are comfortable enough to be naked around us doesn't imply sex. Besides there is another point at play here, one that is big with me. The friendship is more important to me then sex. Why risk a lifetime of friendship for a night of sex. After all in this day and age there are more opportunities for sex then there are for truly great friends so it is a matter of keeping priorities straight.

 

I wonder if spontaneity can be planned. If a couple is of the same mind, but wishes not to engage in planned sex with others, rather to enjoy social interaction with others who may or may not become friends and/or playmates, would it be possible and/or probable to have the ground rules and communication guidlines planned should a favourable opportunity arise? Yikes, since it took that long to say it, it might be a lot of work. Might be worth it tho.

 

My apologies for not addressing the original question. It seems simple to me. Ask carefully. Observe quietly. Listen intently.

 

Planned spontaneity ....hum I find the idea humorous but I think I know where you are going with it. And I would have to answer Yes to your question for the simple reason that is how my wife and I are. We don't belong to any sites or reguarly attend swing clubs. We have a clear idea of what we want as a couple and if we find ourselves in such a situation we already have a set of rules about what is and isn't acceptable. So to be honest we probably play a lot less then the average couple, but when we do it is a lot of fun.

[intuition897 2,179]

Yay! This is my 1000th post!

 

You know what? I think she just doesn't like the negative connotations of the label "swinger". Call it something else. Or call it nothing at all. Just call it having fun. And if she says, "Oh, we can't do that..." you say, "Says who? Who else are we married to, here? I'm okay with you [blankity-blank-blank]ing Bill if you like. I think that's really hot. I just want to see you enjoying yourself."

 

I still inwardly cringe at the term "swinger" myself. Draws up nasty images of dinner-plate sized gold medallions, leopard-print purple spandex encasing bodies that are not designed to wear it, and enough body hair to keep a sasquatch warm. It just ain't the truth, but it's ingrained there. If she's thinking Austin Powers, don't use the word swinger.

[jennandjamesinm 87]

Yay! This is my 1000th post!

 

 

And here's to 1000 more insight, helpful posts - WHOOT WHOOT Intuition!!!

 

Ok - back to your regularly scheduled thread!

 

Jenn

[Botcpl 15]

Yay! This is my 1000th post! :

I still inwardly cringe at the term "swinger" myself. Draws up nasty images of dinner-plate sized gold medallions, leopard-print purple spandex encasing bodies that are not designed to wear it, and enough body hair to keep a sasquatch warm. It just ain't the truth, but it's ingrained there. If she's thinking Austin Powers, don't use the word swinger.

 

 

It is funny what lables can do. If I invite someone for dinner at the "yacht club" their eyes roll and I can see the images of mega yachts and and silver buckets to ice the champagne down. If I say my "sailing club" the reply is, "oh, that sounds like fun." even though it's the same building and the same people. The only time I've seen a silver bucket was from a visiting boat when they asked me where they could get some ice. It was pretty funny, but they did know how to sail.

 

P

[dallmax1 15]

"...I say that because in your posts I get a sense of I want this for me, how do I get her to "agree. It may not be the case, but that is how I perceive it."

 

Wow, that is what you perceive after 3 posts; I think that may have been a little quick to judge, that is how I perceive it.

 

I think it (swinging) would be a blast for my wife. I think it would add to our relationship. Believe me, if this was all just about "Me" there are plenty of "Me" things I could do, but won't do; the fact of the matter is its about "us".

 

intuition897 and botcpl maybe on to something; perhaps its semantics.

[txduo2000 18]

"...I say that because in your posts I get a sense of I want this for me, how do I get her to "agree. It may not be the case, but that is how I perceive it."

 

Wow, that is what you perceive after 3 posts; I think that may have been a little quick to judge, that is how I perceive it.

 

I think it (swinging) would be a blast for my wife. I think it would add to our relationship. Believe me, if this was all just about "Me" there are plenty of "Me" things I could do, but won't do; the fact of the matter is its about "us".

 

 

I think the reason Jester said this was because in two of your posts, you discuss how your wife has already stated she was against swinging and also you ask how you can "persuade" her to participate.

 

I agree, the term "persuade" correlates to many to also mean "manipulate" and most of us are against heavy-handed tactics such as arm-twisting to get someone to do what you want to do, and what they have already professed to be against.

 

Maybe it is semantics. But maybe your wife just enjoys flirting heavily and is simply not interested in having sex with anyone else, nor having you have sex with anyone else.

 

My suggestion would be to talk alot with her, invite her to read this board and find out we are not a bunch of perverts. And talk some more. And some more. Between the two of you.

 

Usually it is one part of a couple that first brings up the idea of swinging, and many times the other partner is reticent to agree, but with continued talking and hashing out the pros and cons, and talking openly and honestly to your desires for being in the lifestyle, the other partner starts to realize that it is not something that diminishes, but enhances a relationship. Perhaps this is what you meant by "persuading" your wife. But no one can give you advice on how to do that. Only you know your wife and how best to talk to her. I would be very reluctant to tell anyone specifically what to say or do to convince someone this is right for them, other than suggesting researching and communicating.

[DBL D 120]

Yay! This is my 1000th post! .

 

Congratulations Girl!

 

You know what? I think she just doesn't like the negative connotations of the label "swinger". Call it something else. Or call it nothing at all. Just call it having fun. And if she says, "Oh, we can't do that..." you say, "Says who? Who else are we married to, here? I'm okay with you [blankity-blank-blank]ing Bill if you like. I think that's really hot. I just want to see you enjoying yourself." .

 

Or maybe she has reached a place where she is entirely comfy...what with your flirtatiousness and all. You say she's wild, but besides having fantasies about ffm's nothing seems to happen. How about addressing the sex/love angle or "sharing"?

 

I still inwardly cringe at the term "swinger" myself. Draws up nasty images of dinner-plate sized gold medallions, leopard-print purple spandex encasing bodies that are not designed to wear it, and enough body hair to keep a sasquatch warm. It just ain't the truth, but it's ingrained there. If she's thinking Austin Powers, don't use the word swinger.

 

You just killed me there. I swear Intuition. I know your imagination isn't that active...is it?

 

Male D

[twoferfun69 15]

Yay! This is my 1000th post!

I still inwardly cringe at the term "swinger" myself. Draws up nasty images of dinner-plate sized gold medallions, leopard-print purple spandex encasing bodies that are not designed to wear it, and enough body hair to keep a sasquatch warm. It just ain't the truth, but it's ingrained there. If she's thinking Austin Powers, don't use the word swinger.

 

Congrats Intuition!! We are not worthy!!!

There is a gentleman high level administrator in my son's school district who is rumored to be in the lifestyle. HE fits that Ron "the hedgehog" Jeremy look that most of the people I know, including myself, envisioned as the type of person being in this lifestyle.

This is such a shame, because most of the people we have met do not look or act anything like this, and do not act any different than anyone else you might see on the street.

My ex and I had a couple that we would hang out every weekend for a couple of years. Very flirty, etc. Naked in the hot tub was normal. Hand jobs from the ladies were normal(never to completion though). Never once did we even so much as have sex with our spouses in the same room, or even at their house. An inquiry was made as to whether or not they would "do such a thing" and they very gently told us that they would never "do such a thing". But, the relationship continued on like that for a couple more years, until my ex and I split.

So, goes to show, ya never can tell, even when all the signs are there.

[intuition897 2,179]

Congratulations Girl!

 

 

 

Or maybe she has reached a place where she is entirely comfy...what with your flirtatiousness and all. You say she's wild, but besides having fantasies about ffm's nothing seems to happen. How about addressing the sex/love angle or "sharing"?

 

Thanks for all the congrats, folks. I'm just getting warmed up.

 

I just suggested that maybe she has a preconceived notion of what swinging is, and her vision is NOT what she wants to be labeled as. She doesn't see her attitude or behaviour, no matter how swingeriffic it is, as swinging. To her it's just harmless flirting and having fun. It's exactly the same stuff that we do, but we've given it a name. That's all. Some folks never go beyond soft swap, or even beyond just attending the clubs for the erotic atmosphere...then they go home and have sex with just each other. Hey, it's whatever rocks your world! If that's your kink, then kudos for your open-mindedness. Couples who are even that open are rare enough.

[Jester 15]

"...I say that because in your posts I get a sense of I want this for me, how do I get her to "agree. It may not be the case, but that is how I perceive it."

 

Wow, that is what you perceive after 3 posts; I think that may have been a little quick to judge, that is how I perceive it.

 

I think it (swinging) would be a blast for my wife. I think it would add to our relationship. Believe me, if this was all just about "Me" there are plenty of "Me" things I could do, but won't do; the fact of the matter is its about "us".

 

intuition897 and botcpl maybe on to something; perhaps its semantics.

 

No judgments after all I did say it may not be the case as it was my perception based on the way things were worded. I think Txduo2000 expanded on it nicely and will leave that point there.

 

Have you found out the why behind the no?

...Is it no to that couple, or no in general

...is no to swinging, but yes to playing with others (labeling)

...Yes to FFM, but no to full couple play

 

Also, under the idea of labeling does she think doing this makes her a "slut"? With my wife that was kind her stumbling block she was afraid I would think less of her and it went against ideas of what a good mother and wife should be. That kind of play was supposed to be gotten out of your system before marriage and so on....

 

This is where communication and patience are key.

 

Rather than focusing on the sex with others, I had to reassure her that our relationship was solid. That it made her nothing but hot and sexy to be open to having fun. That it is our relationship and we define what is right for us. For us that kind of discussion had to come first.

 

Once she realized that she could be a sexual being AND a good mother and wife she was more receptive to the fantasy's and even started to communicate hers to me. Then we played with the fantasy's for awhile, and then started to put people into the fantasy's...unattainable ones. movies star's, sports figures and so on. Then the fantasy's moved a little closer to home, people we would see on the streets and in the mall or bars. And then a couple we knew... So it was a slow journey of letting her get comfortable with things at her pace.

 

And now she leads the charge and I am along for the ride of my life.

[DBL D 120]

...Some folks never go beyond soft swap, or even beyond just attending the clubs for the erotic atmosphere...then they go home and have sex with just each other. Hey, it's whatever rocks your world! If that's your kink, then kudos for your open-mindedness. Couples who are even that open are rare enough.

 

Very true! He should feel like a lucky guy as it is, but if he wants to do more then he has to talk to someone and it's best if she knows she can be whatever she wants to be, labeling be-damned.

 

Male D

[dallmax1 15]

Usually it is one part of a couple that first brings up the idea of swinging, and many times the other partner is reticent to agree, but with continued talking and hashing out the pros and cons, and talking openly and honestly to your desires for being in the lifestyle, the other partner starts to realize that it is not something that diminishes, but enhances a relationship. Perhaps this is what you meant by "persuading" your wife. But no one can give you advice on how to do that. Only you know your wife and how best to talk to her. I would be very reluctant to tell anyone specifically what to say or do to convince someone this is right for them, other than suggesting researching and communicating.

 

That is exactly what I mean by persuading her. When I say I have mentioned to my wife, it has been in passing; I have not discussed it with her as something I seriously want to do, that is why I came to this site to look for advice. I am not trying to "strong arm" her into doing anything she doesn’t want to do.

 

Definition of persuade: to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action

 

I assume a lot of people had to persuade their wives (girlfriends)/husbands (boyfriends) at one point to try swinging.

 

That was/is the advice I was looking for.

 

That is why I asked if our friends were possible swingers; the conversation I could then have with my wife would be, Bill and Suzy are swingers, have you ever thought about doing anything like that. Or if they are over in the hot tub and we soft swung, that too could be a safe start. It personalizes it more than having her look on this board where she doesn't know anyone. Grant it, I don't personally know any of you, but she hasn't ever been on a message board like I have. If she personally knows someone who swings, she might be more open to the possibility.

 

Thanks for all those who have offered advice.

[DBL D 120]

Well, I think you can suggest things to your wife and let it go. If she's interested she'll come back to you and ask you what you meant or if you were serious. If her only fantasies include you and you only you may have a difficult time "persuading" her. If she really is wild at heart, then I think you'll have an easier time dealing with things as they come along.

 

I still think you're ahead of the crowd having a lady who doesn't mind your flirting. She sounds like a "menu-reader" at this time.

 

Male D

[dallmax1 15]

Just a side note. I dressed as Santa for bowling on Saturday night; of course I had on my mistletoe belt buckle .

 

When the time is right I will pursue it more.

 

Thanks everyone.

[dallmax1 15]

Let me first off apologize to everyone who responded to this question. I am sorry that you wasted your time writing for I didn’t take the advice everyone had to offer.

 

I’ll try to make a long story short. Suzy, Bill, MRS and I…Dance club…drinks…hot tub…I brought up swinging…Suzy and I alone in the hot tub…talk more of the details of a swap…a kiss…we stopped before anything further happened. We ended with you talk to your spouse and I’ll talk with mine and maybe something may come of it. I did. MRS said no, but agreed to look at this site. She found this thread. I came clean about the kiss. I messed up; I talked to the other couple before my wife; she was very upset with me (I can’t blame her). We’ve talked and are in the process of dealing with my dishonesty and kissing her friend. I was a dumb ass and didn’t listen to what people told me over and over again about talking to my wife. Had I, it would have saved a lot of tears, sleepless nights and loss of trust. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

My wife told me “You would have got a lot more than a kiss had you brought up swinging to me instead of Suzy!” Now we, instead of me, are looking into the lifestyle.

 

I will try to do a better job of listening to all the wonderful advice which people spend their time giving.

[Spoomonkey 421]

We might need to find a way to make this the "welcome" thread for the board...

 

Its one of those "mistakes" that others can learn from.

 

Sorry to hear things went awry, but asking that question can be scary. You should have - you know that - you're beating yourself up more than anyone else ever will.

 

Hopefully your wife will work with you to work through this.

 

It is a painful learning experience, but I sincerely hope that the two of you can turn it into soemthing that brings you closer and lets you both explore your fantasies as partners in crime - growing closer every step of the way.

 

Good luck to you!

 

Spoomonkey

[DBL D 120]

Hey dallmax1,

 

Geez, your last post makes me feel awful. I'm sorry this has happened. I must say though that lying about it won't help.

 

However, you never know what good may come of this. At least folks know more about you and they know you must know you are living the way You want to. That's why lying won't help things. You sorta diffused the fire you started when that was what you wanted in the first place. I wish you good luck.

 

Stay loose...but not too loose.

 

Male D

[dallmax1 15]

Hey dallmax1,

 

Geez, your last post makes me feel awful.

 

Male D

 

 

Hey DBL D, Don't feel too awful; I am the one who brought this onto myself. Live and learn, move on. The amount of love I have for my wife is immeasurable; I never meant to hurt her, but did. I am slowly building back the trust I destroyed. Thanks for your message.

 

Take Care.