Church versus swinging

[kandkb 15]

I'm a christian but I'm not sure if the bible is saying that it is really sinful to be bi or if swinging is wrong as long as you and your husband are in on it together and we don't lie to each other. Believe it or not we have been swinging for about 10 years and this question still bothers me. Sometimes I just don't know if what Im doing is wrong in God's eyes. Any insights? I'm sure I'm not the only one out there that has wondered about this.

[TNT 1,155]

This link might help you with some of your questions.

 

http://www.libchrist.com

 

Teresa

[kandkb 15]

Thanks, I'll go check it out.

[intuition897 2,179]

I could post a really huge long comment about this, but I'll try to keep it short.

 

I think the Holy Bible has become something that its message actually prohibits: an idol. I mean, come on! It's wood pulp and ink covered by the preserved skin of a dead animal. And while the words in it are divinely inspired, they have been translated by man. Pure light through dirty lenses, if you will. The men who wrote those words were not perfect, and their past experiences coloured the way they interpreted that inspiration. If it were not so, there would be no difference between writing styles and themes from one book to the next. It is foolhardy to blindly follow anything without questioning it. If it is true, it will stand of it's own accord.

 

We're all individuals and we all think very differently. It's not our specific opinions that matter so much, or our particular quirks - it is the intent with which we live our lives. We are told to question all things (can't remember that chapter:verse, but it's in there), and in Romans 14 it explains that what one man considers holy another man might consider sin. And we are all to live according to what we know in our own hearts and souls is right. If we are doing something that we truly feel is offensive to God, and then consciously decide to CONTINUE to do it, well I think that's what He's going to care about.

 

This life is a test run, a dress rehearsal. We've been given the equivalent of crash test cars for lives. These bodies are not expected to last forever; do you really think God cares about a couple of dings in the fender? Scars, both physical and emotional, are inevitible. It's how we learn. The point isn't that we get to the end of the road course with our cars completely intact; the point is that we have learned to drive responsibly, without hurting others or ourselves. This pleases God.*

 

That's why the Golden Rule covers all the others: just love each other and do not do harm. It's not rocket science, folks! If that one law was perfectly kept, there would never be a need for any others. That is the entire underlying theme that runs throughout the Bible. Just keep it between the lines and live a good and happy life. And part of living that good life is doing what you can to positively affect the lives of others, embracing what is good and holy and denouncing what is not. There is SO much good in this world to be embraced; it's just hard to see when it's covered in bullshit. So I just like to suggest that everyone grab a shovel and start removing the bullshit and get down to the good stuff.

 

Did this post make sense to anyone? Probably not...

 

EDIT>> Just wanted to add that this is not to say that we are free to trash our bodies as we please. We have been entrusted with the care of our bodies, and should be respectful of the craftsmanship, care and love that went into making them.

[dayhiker 83]

About 3 months ago we had quite a long discussion about church and swinging.

 

here is the URL - Swinging and Christianity

[eyesonus 18]

The following is not my opinion. I am against any restrictions, legal or religious, that shame or punish people for having fun that doesn't harm anyone. But, the Bible is clear on the issue of both adultery and homosexuality, both are condemned and forbidden, no if's and's or but's.

 

I have a friend who is a Methodist Minister who has studied these things. A huge controversy in that denomination recently was whether to allow actively practicing gay clergy to preach. The issue was not about hating gays, the Methodists, like others, adopt a "hate the sin, love the sinner" approach, but having openly practicing gay clergy was too much for the institution. At a big meeting recently the whole denomination voted to keep the prohibition. Why? Only because it is forbidden by the Bible in no uncertain terms. Since the Bible is clear, it is a matter of free will as to whether or not you choose to follow it.

 

Myself? I am a self described "apatheticist," I don't care which religion is right, I think they are all myth, but I don't profess to know the "truth." I'm not an atheist because I do not claim to have special knowledge that allows me to assert that God DOESN'T exist any more than I have special knowledge that he does. I chose not to be bound by any religion, they all proclaim to know the truth by divine revelation but they all conflict in their basic creeds. Some religions have even died out, despite at one time having many adherents; remember, those Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans really believed in all those Gods!

 

But for those who do believe, in the end, you will have to reconcile yourself to it, or change yourself, because a 2000 year old institutionalized organization isn't about to change centuries of teaching in order to accommodate the changing fashions of popular culture. The leaders of every major religion are in a constant battle with modern western popular culture; swinging, divorce, extra marital sex, and what they see as "moral decline." This is what the Pope and Osama have in common, a desire to turn back the clock and reinstate religious dogma over skeptical secularism as the political order.

 

I personally see the western popular culture as freedom oriented, authority bucking, inquisitive, and as a BETTER alternative to dogma! For too many thousands of years religious dogma has been used to shame, shutter, and stamp out human activities that hurt no one but violate the "rules." I wish there was a "Christianity Lite" that would allow people to swing and do other "banned" things, but that is not going to happen.

 

Unfortunately, if you really believe, and if you are honest with yourself, then you must decide whether to practice your religion or go against it, but the authorities won't let you have it both ways.

[WesternSwing 504]

Hear, hear, eyesonus. Very good post. Since I am the keeper of quotes, , I'll leave you here with a few of my favorites regarding organized religion, because they all take themselve to seriously and all of them are mortal men interpreting to the masses what God (or whatever you're comfortable with) is saying.

 

"Scriptures, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based."

 

~ Ambrose Bierce

 

“Conventionality is not morality. Self-righteousness is not religion.”

 

~ Charlotte Bronte

 

“Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think.”

 

~ Arthur Shopenhauer

 

“In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.”

 

“Morality is herd instinct in the individual.”

 

~ Friedrich Nietzsche

 

“It is a fine thing to establish one's own religion in one's heart, not to be dependent on tradition and second-hand ideals. Life will seem to you, later, not a lesser, but a greater thing.”

 

~ D. H. Lawrence

 

Mr. WS

[dayhiker 83]

Hi eyesonus,

 

You wrote a very good post. I agree with most of it. I also don't expect the organized church to change. I'd love to know how many people have left the church because of its stand on sexual activities.

 

I've studied the Bible all my life. While I'm not a scholar in knowing the original languages and don't claim to be able to comprehend as much material as many with higher IQ's. I can also say this about myself. I have studied the Bible to know what it says more than many pastors. I'm willing to say when the Bible says even when its not popular. My job doesn't depend on meeting a orthodoxy statement.

 

It's only been in the last 18 months that I've studied what the Bible actually says about sex and tied to understand what it meant to those that wrote it and to those it was written to. My finding is that church tradition is has redefined many words that are now used to condemn people in their sexual activities. Both adultery and fornication mean different things to us today than they did in Biblical days. Almost all teaching on divorce is different than what they believed in the NT times. Many pastors teach that masturbation is sin and the Bible is total silent about it other than one verse speaking of male emissions in general.

 

So I find most Bible teachers are teaching what they want the Bible to say about sex rather than what it actually says.

 

I agree with your thesis, the church will keep people from enjoying loving sex for years to come.

[hilltop 16]

I can't speak to whether the Bible explicitly forbids swinging or being bi.

 

But I do know that where knowledge goes . . . . God dies.

 

We have a need as a species to put the unknown in the hands of God so that we can be comfortable with the larger questions. It's easier to have a moral compass provided for you than it is to take that responsibility on yourself.

 

If you were to go back 250 years and showed an educated individual (for the time) a box that would let you see his bones, you'd be hanged for being in league with the devil. Today, no one questions the use of Xrays and the explanation of what makes them work. The instances of those kinds of change in thinking are innumerable.

 

It's telling that while our acceptance that a new material discovery can replace a divine explanation with a scientific one we continue to seriously struggle with the role sex plays in our society. We still look to our religion to provide us with the "right" answer.

 

If you want to control a mass of individuals you need to take command of two things . . . fear and sex, two of our most powerful motivators. Establish clear and hard rules around sex and enforce them with fear and you rule the world.

 

Knowledge has a tendency to move faster than dogma so the organized religions are left to scramble to keep up and adapt their structure to the new matrix of society. And because they can no longer impose a physical fear (in Western cultures) to keep their structure in place, it is becoming more and more difficult to keep the individual on their "moral" path.

 

Is it a sin to swing? Only the individual can answer that. Some will never be capable of it. Some will rationalize it, other's will turn a blind eye to it and yield to their desires.

 

Our attitude toward sexual morals is just another element of change (albeit a slow one) in our ever shifting view of how we fit into the scheme of things.

[Guest azmichael36]

Swinging and Christianity (“The Church”) aren’t on the same page. It seems like swingers want to believe they have evolved past such archaic beliefs. However, the majority think it’s a slight form of devolution. Animalistic? Maybe? What is right? Isn’t it comical how everyone wants to shift the definition of Christianity? It doesn’t answer your question. Swinging is wrong in the eyes of God (as defined through Christianity.) Period. Doesn’t mean you have to believe in God though. C’mon guys give them a straight answer.

[celtic239 297]

When it comes to organized religion and swinging, you're either in or your out. This applies to all three western religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism). I've read all the rationalizations about the Bible somehow sanctioning FFM but not MFM threesomes, spilt seed and all the rest. I suspect what many people are seeking in this forum is some sort of absolution from participating in the lifestyle. It ain't happening. You should either make a conscious decision to play and stop wasting your time looking for God's approval.

 

Now can you be part of the lifestyle and still function actively within a structured religion, of course you can. But you will have to do it with the knowledge that you, as a swinger, are not a saint (i.e. you're a sinner) and that you and your spouse have faults. Whether or not you will feel the guilt by breaking the commandments or the Koran is totally between you and the 'Man upstairs".

[Bianca 15]

if you study the 2000 year long history of christianity, as opposed to the other religions, you will soon realize that christianity is the most sex-negative religion of them all. virginity and life-long celibacy is what christianity considered holy and for most of the 2000 years even sex between wives and husbands was considered dirty. strict oppression of peoples sexual needs and behaviors was one of the basic preocupation of the church from its beginnings, so I don't doubt swinging, like many other forms of sexual expressions (including masturbation, homo and bisexuality, adultery, pre-marital sex etc) are out of the question. according to this religion, sex in general, and sex for pleasure instead of for procreation in particular, is WRONG. be sure you'll burn in hell for swinging, if you believe in hell of course.

 

and by the way, we live in the 21 century, where science explains everything that people 2000 years ago were unable to explain and had to invent stories to understand their world. is (organized) religion still necessary for intelligent and educated people of this era?

[Spoomonkey 421]

Actually - One of my bachelor's degrees is in the Bible...

 

So I would say that I have a bit of background

 

Personally, from a contextual viewpoint, there is no conflict with Christianity and swinging. I don't like to get into it, because I do believe their is a larger issue in people exploring the truth for themselves, but to say that it is mutually exclusive is pretty haughty. Considering better men then us has debated many, many issues of the faith without coming to a mutually satisfying conclusion, what makes anyone here think that they can take such a rigid stand?

[Guest azmichael36]

I’m sorry you’re not getting a satisfactory answer from these self-proclaimed experts. How about visiting your Priest to explore your question? He will have a much better idea.

[intuition897 2,179]

azmichael36 said:

I’m sorry you’re not getting a satisfactory answer from these self-proclaimed experts. How about visiting your Priest to explore your question? He will have a much better idea.

 

Ah yes. A real expert.

[good times 991]

I’m sorry you’re not getting a satisfactory answer from these self-proclaimed experts. How about visiting your Priest to explore your question? He will have a much better idea.

 

 

Isn't that kind of like taking driving lessons from a blind man?

[Paphian 16]

Interesting discussion, and one that I'm staying (mostly) way out of

 

I would, however refer those interested to these two books for some interesting insights:

 

The End of Faith, by Sam Harris

 

and

 

The Baptizing of America, by Rabbi James Rudin

 

The first will really make you think (and the book is not long, but it also isn't easy) about just what the implications of faith are in the modern age. The second will give you an interesting non-christian insight into what's going on in the USA of late. I recommend both highly, even though I'm not done with Rabbi Rudin's book quite yet.

[dayhiker 83]

I see some more interesting posts have been made. I've studied the Bible and history as much as if not more than most have. I don't find the Bible has a problem with swinging as its talked about on this site. Only doing it with consent and love.

 

The asceticism that lead the church to make sex the most evil thing in human existence I believe has its roots not in the Jewish/Jesus/apostles sayings but in Greek gnosticism. The Greeks said the physical world was evil and the spiritual world was good. Jewish and Christianity said God created every thing good and man very good. Ya, man fell into sin, but people are still created in the image of God. Plus the Bible teaches not that the body is evil but that God will redeem the body in the resurrection. The body of sin of the flesh is not the physical body but the evil nature that is in man. It is out of that heart Jesus said that some evil fruit.

 

Paul said I'm convinced in the Lord Jesus that everything is inherently clean. The people that were hung up over all kinds of petty rules Paul called weak. Its interesting that as I've watched the church saying ,the last few years, that for a man to look at a woman is adultery, has lead from I'm observation to women in the church are becoming weak as Paul used this work in 1 Cor. and Rom.

 

No, my studies the Biblical words saying that almost all sexual acts are sin is from the the church redefining the words from what they mean when they were written and liberated Christians are going back to what they meant when they were originally written.

 

I hope that all comes across in love.

[Guest azmichael36]

Well, I’m pretty sure a Priest will have a greater understanding of “Christianity.” Sorry, a worthless liberal arts degree certainly doesn’t make an expert. It doesn't even help grammar! The people at the unemployment office know that.

[dayhiker 83]

Don’t you think a Priest will have a better understanding of “Christianity?” A worthless liberal arts degree certainly does not make an expert. It doesn’t even help grammar! The people standing at the unemployment office know that.

 

True you need more than a liberal arts english course to know what is going on in the Bible.

 

I'm not sure who your referring to here. Spoomonkey has a Bible degree and I do also. I've almost of got a masters degree as well.

 

What do you need to know? You need to know history cause even marriage isn't what it was in Bible times. Marrying for love only goes back 200 years. The government having the say in who is married and who isn't goes back to Martin Luther. Even the Roman Catholic Church before that only had partial say over who was married and who wasn't. Thru most of human recorded history it was the parents who had the say in who got married. Those marriages weren't just for the couple either. They were political and economic marriages. That's not just rules that we read about in our history classes either. Marriages were a way for a family(clan/tribe) to extend their network of protection and economic trade. This was true of all families. Even the terms: wife, concubine and handmaiden didn't so much describe their relationships as their economic status.

 

Then you need to know ancient languages. This is a weakness of mine, I'll admit. But I do have lexicons and a book case full of reference books. So for example I grew up with the definition of fornication being pre-marital sex. Well, not one lexicon says the meaning of fornication is pre-marital sex. It turns out fornication is a Latin word that Jerome used in his Latin Volgate translation of the Bible. In Jerome's time fornication meant prostitute. Then I go to the Greek lexicons and what do they say of the Greek word? They say illegal sex, prostitution.

 

Who am I to believe? The church that told me a wrong definition of what the the porneia means or the Greek lexicons?

 

It is a simple for me. I'll follow Jesus that got mad at the religious leaders that put burdens on the people that even they didn't carry.

[intuition897 2,179]

Don’t you think a Priest will have a better understanding of “Christianity?” A worthless liberal arts degree certainly does not make an expert. It doesn’t even help grammar! The people standing at the unemployment office know that.

 

No, azmichael I most certainly do not. I know in my heart and soul that sex is not evil, and it in itself cannot corrupt man. Anyone who tells me otherwise gains my sympathy. And that has included church leaders. It shows a lack of ability to think outside the Christianity box, and if there is anyone who absolutely, 100% needs to be a pro-active thinker, it should be church leaders, fearlessly thinking ahead and pondering such problems. Ideally, the only people who should be qualified to lead a church should be people who have a commitment to the betterment of mankind, a gift for far-reaching vision, and a burning desire - and ability - to share that vision with the masses. And a touch of humility, too. They need to realize that their position is one of great responsibility and influence, so it becomes a burden to bear when they must admit that they can and will make mistakes. And these mistakes, because of their influence, will hurt more people than if they were one of the followers.

[txduo2000 18]

azmichael36 said:

Don’t you think a Priest will have a better understanding of “Christianity?”

 

HA! Not!

 

Now, I do not have a theological degree, and have never studied religion in any sense other than sitting in the congregation listening to the sermon, but I will say that it is my humble and probably not very enlightened opinion that preachers, ministers, priests, and all other "men of the cloth" are simply just that ... men (i.e., human) and prone to the same sins and mistakes as we are all. Because they carry a little more education in the area of religion and hold a title that assumes they are a little closer to God than the general masses, does not, in my opinion, get them any closer to God than the rest of us. Basically, while I carried faith for a long time, I do not believe in nor advocate "organized religion". I do not believe in sanctimonious, judgmental and self-righteous people telling others how they should live. I believe that churches have become more of a social structure than a faith-filled one, putting far too much emphasis on money and status than in the humble church days of old. I believe that many church-goers, preachers and the like sin in horrible ways sometimes more devastating than what non-church-goers do, and veil it under their "religion". I know people who have been "saved" and now perform every task with a prayer, but these same people are more harsh to their fellow man, more judgmental, more critical ... and THAT in itself wars with MY ideals of religion most of all.

 

I will be honest; I have struggled with my views on religion for as long as I have known who and what God is. Since beginning swinging, I have refused to "practice" religion in any sense - I do not go to church, I do not really even pray anymore. In a sense, swinging has been at war with my faith and my Christian beliefs. It's like I have made a conscious decision that since swinging wars with what I have been taught, I feel like I am a hypocrite if I practice religion AND swing ...

 

However, recently, I have been doing a great deal of thinking on the subject. Unfortunately, I think I have started to lean more towards the "Big Bang" and "Theory of Evolution" rather than the "Theory of Creation". Kidding ... Creation has been ingrained into my head since I was a very small child, so I am sure that the idea of God will never fully leave me. I will just say that I am so disappointed in the terrible things that occur on a daily basis in this world that I am constantly left questioning the intelligence in believing in a Greater Good. So many people who live under the cloak of God are just not good people down deep. And I do not care to be associated with that type of person.

 

But most of all, I hate seeing really good people negatively affected by the world around them on a regular, systematic basis ... and where is God in these instances? Oh yeah, he's over there turning a blind eye to the child who is molested every single day for the last 8 years of her life, or he's allowing a serial killer to devastate the lives of 30 families before finally being caught, or he's looking the other way when a series of devastating hurricanes hit and destroy so many people's lives and livelihoods ... the list goes on, but I think those scenarios show how I feel.

 

I do not want to get into a big war of the religions, but I just want to say that for me, the bottom line is live the best life I can, hurt no one knowingly, be kind as I can to my fellow man, treat others as I would like to be treated, don't cheat, lie or steal, do what I can to help others less fortunate when I can, raise my kids to be decent human beings with these same basic philosophies, and just hope I, my family and other decent human beings can simply get though this thing we call life. If there's a heaven on the other end, then I hope I lived my life well enough to gain entry. And if I didn't, then I will try to remember to pack a bathing suit on my way down south.

[dayhiker 83]

Txduo,

 

I really enjoyed your post. It’s the thoughts of a man who is thinking and trying to understand one of the most complicated issues for a Christian. And being honest about it too. I don’t claim to have the answer, I do think I can give you something to think about and I hope help you to the next level.

 

As I said this topic is very complicated. There is no simple sentence that says, “OH here is the answer to that question.” Thus only those that are willing to wade thru a detailed thought can even really begin to know if there is an answer. Actually I have heard one simple answer. “There is no answer.” That position isn’t acceptable to me, personally.

 

For most of my Christian life I thought there was no way God could have anything to do with evil, either natural or moral evil. When this topic came up I always said it was man’s sin that was the cause.

 

Then I finally came to grip with God created this world and knew what was going to happen when he created it. I still don’t think God caused any one to do a specific act of evil, but God knew the act would happen before He created the world and He still went ahead and created it any ways. If God really is good, then even with the evil in this world one has to conclude that this is the best world God can create. That of course is no comfort. Since we can’t deny evil and live in reality one would think this leaves us in a very depressing conclusion.

 

However, there seems to be one way out. That is to say that this present evil will create something very good in the future that can’t be created any other way. Thus the answer is a faith answer. Some will blow the idea away on that bases.

 

What can God create this way that even He couldn’t do another way?

1. With a perfect world there wouldn’t be compassion, loyalty, a determination to overcome hard situation and those types of things.

2. If there is no test, would we really know what we are made of?

3. If there were no offenses would we learn how to love, how to forgive, etc.

4. If there wasn’t sin would we know the Love of God that he would become a man and die for us.

5. Without trails would we know how to be thankful in a deeper way.

 

Well, I think you get the idea. In a masters level class I wrote about 20 pages along this idea. Much more detailed. If any one wants to read what I wrote, email me at dayhiker@hotmail.com and I’ll resurrect the files.

[Charles 15]

Very interesting discussion! I have had the privilege to attend university and complete three degrees a Bachelor of Arts in Comparative Religion, Master of Theology and most recently a Master of Counseling Psychology. The first and last degrees were in secular universities and the second a Christian university (total of eleven years – I know, I’m crazy!!! But I love being crazy!!). I mention this not because I feel I’m an expert, but to point out that issues of faith is much more involved than having the “education” or looking in the Sacred Writings for answers. I am no closer to the “truth” than I was 11 years ago. Nothing is absolute, and life is a journey of discovery. The writings in the Christian and Hebrew Scriptures are peoples quest for meaning - discover. What we have in Scripture began as oral stories eventually they were written down. All of us are engaged in the pursuit of meaning.

 

Does the Christian Bible say anything about being bi or a play couple? NO! You will not find these issues in the Bible. There is negative reference to homosexuality, but only in a few places. There is much more about divorce, than about homosexuality! Most churches today accept divorce don’t they? There was a time when divorce was immoral. People were together “until death do us part” (lucky when the “death do us part” statement come into effect, people lived only to a very young age! And there were no CSI people!) Did the church change its mind regarding divorce? Something else to keep in mind, those who wrote about homosexuality did not understand or study God’s gift to humanity! We now understand more fully (well some what) that homosexuality is quite normal. Let’s face it, the unknown is very fearful for us — “There is nothing to fear but fear itself!” Fear drives us to do crazy thing!

 

It is also worth your while to read about other cultures where there is sharing of partners. In such cases there are well set boundaries, but they “swing” woops did I say swing!!!! When whole cultures do this, we have to ask ourselves, “Is this whole culture wrong?” Hey, if a whole culture of people understand it as being fine, well, guess what? That helps my understanding.

 

One last thought. It’s been helpful for me in my own personal journey and in working with clients, to understand religion in terms of Spirituality. Religion puts up walls that name who’s in and who’s out-- that is never helpful in any way. Such understanding is not exclusive to religious groups, but I think we do this all the time. Can you be a play couple and a Christian — I think you can be both, however, if there are questions raised for you, you need to use you God given gifts of Reason, tradition, and scripture figure it out. Ultimately, you have to make sense of your world! Thanks for you rear.... woops ear! :-)

[intuition897 2,179]

Beautifully put txduo and dayhiker!

[bill&sabrina 22]

TNT was close, but still no cigar. Hell I am not even going to give you A direct answer to your question, that is right. I am however going to give you the right advice in finding it. Pray. Since you believe, you know that only God has the answer you are looking for.

[sepacouple 15]

BTW- Have you ever thought how odd it is that priests conduct pre-marital and marriage counseling yet they themselves are not allowed to marry.

[kandkb 15]

Thanks Charles! I'm the one that got this whole discussion started and have read everyone's input. Yours by far has been the most helpful. No disrespect to the others.

 

I'm really amazed though at the how people feel about God. They seem to either not believe in him or have hard feelings I guess you could say. I don't think that any denomination has it exactly right but they all try to understand what God was saying and that has to give them brownie points at least.

 

I really thought that somewhere in scripture there was something said about swinging. I know that in the Old Testament men could have many wives and that was my argument about swinging. Just recently I was told that in the New Testament that all changed and God didn't want people to do that. He wanted there to be only one man and one woman in marriage. I'm far from a Bible scholar so I'm just going by what I was told.

 

That got me to thinking deeper about swinging. I only want to do what God sees as good. If you say that swinging is not mentioned in the bible, I'll take your say so. You have way more diplomas than I do. lol.

 

All I can say for now is that I really wish more people had more faith in God in knowing that everything has a reason and he knows things that we cannot understand. That's where faith comes in. I will keep trying to find the answers the best I can about my topic and pray. Just remember everyone, we were created in God's image and that's good of course but the devil loves to tell us lies in our minds and the only way to protect ourselves is with the understanding of the scriptures.

 

I'll keep checking on this thread. I'm sure I'll get a rise out of someone. lol

[dayhiker 83]

K+kb, I like your attitude. To keep seeking God is to be on the way to finding Him. I've sought God all my life and have found faith in Him to be a great blessing. Its in seeing God while reading the Bible that I started to see that what I was being taught about what the Bible said about sex didn't match what I read in the Bible.

 

There are some that are made at the church for that, I just find it sad. I see

it part of the way our whole country is going. More and more laws. More and more ways to take money and freedom away from the people.

 

Gal.5:1 says - For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery.

[WesternSwing 504]

In the long run you have do decide for yourself what is sinful and what isn't. It was once said that all religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few. Organized religions are based on other people's ideals and interpretations of what someone else said.

 

For us sin is anything that creates emotional or physical harm to anybody else. Beyond that simple rule it is simply other people judging you based on their own biases and fears.

 

So don't worry about what your priest says, or what your neighbors say, or your family. This is your life, not theirs. They do not live your life for you, therefore they should not have a say-so in how you live it. As long as your actions do not harm them or anyone else then you are a good person and you are not sinning.

[SADIEBABY5656 15]

Oh my goodness......!!!! What an incredibly negative view some of you have about God and the Bible. While I am still wrestling with some of this myself, I know for a fact while most church institutions don't deal with the sexual issue as they should, I do know that the Bible and God does....He sent Jesus,His Son, to die for us...how much more love can one have than that... and He created sex to be enjoyed, though I do think He has some boundaries there and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that!

 

Even in this lifestyle there has to be some boundaries; God is no different, though what makes Christianity different than other beliefs is that it is a GIFT based upon God's grace and not any of our goodness, just His...God is great and He loves us and whatever I do contrary to scripture, the church may not be ready to forgive me, but God is ALWAYS! Religion down thru the ages has given Him a very bad name and all He wants to do is love us. That doesn't mean that I don't want to indulge my wild side, but God is just like I am as a parent, there is NOTHING my kids can do to keep me from loving and forgiving them. lol

[bnc4fun21 15]

Matthew chapter 5 verse 27-30 is where you will find the New Testament's view on adultery covered by Jesus.

[Spoomonkey 421]

Matthew chapter 5 verse 27-30 is where you will find the New Testament's view on adultery covered by Jesus.

 

Of course, you meant to include:

 

"After reading these selected verses, you may want to read them in context, keeping in mind the intention of the 'sermon on the mount' that this is a part of. You will also want to try to take into account the cultural distinctions at the time."

 

Because, we certainly want to stay away from the hermeneutical error of proof-texting, don't we? Nothing is worse than something a big as theology being distilled to a few pet verses...

 

Because, in context, the verses you pointed out support the idea that women were still viewed largely as possessions. Thank God further reading of the New Testament frees us from that cultural oppression!

 

Don't you agree?

[Honey_Tampa 15]

God is great and He loves us and whatever I do contrary to scripture, the church may not be ready to forgive me, but God is ALWAYS!

 

As a Christian believer, I smiled, and thoroughly enjoyed, the passion you put into this message, Sadie. And I share it with you. I do believe though that this type of gushing falls on deaf ears for the cynics .. and maybe even sounds like drivel. But don't let it suppress your passion, hon.

 

I've only just found God, myself, within the last 8 years [i'm 33]. And it happened only a year before I discovered swinging. I feel pretty confused about how God feels about swinging because, simply, I've only read like 30 verses in the Bible. So, thank you Bible scholars here for adding your 2 cents and giving us laymen a little more insight.

 

If God is truly against swinging, I honestly don't know what I would do. Stop swinging? I don't know. When my parents asked me to not date that guy in high school who was 5 yrs older than me, did I honor that? I'm afraid I didn't. Now...to purposefully be a sinner and meet His disappointed but loving face at Heaven's gates? I will have to put some serious consideration into that one... I feel pretty torn.

[dayhiker 83]

Matthew chapter 5 verse 27-30 is where you will find the new testaments view on adultery covered by Jesus.

 

I love how so many think that this verse says (how I'd word what their view) men are committing adultery every time they look at a women. Or to put if from the other side ... men are to be asexual tell they are in bed with their wife and then return to being asexual beings till their wife feels gracious enough to want sexual relations again.

 

I just returned from a men's retreat this weekend. What a blessing. One of those was how God added to what he has been teaching me. In the book, "4 Women Only" Shaunti Feldhahn tries to explain how men think and feel about 8 topics in words women will understand. She interviews and surveyed over 1000 men. In the chapter about sex and men's mind, she says men told her they think about sex and ever pretty women they see has an effect on them. Even the Christian men we would consider most pure.

 

Brian, our speaker this weekend, said that a '97 survey of men attending Promise Keepers weekends were asked, what sins they were tempted with. All but one sin was in the single digits. Even anger, #2, only had 8-9% of them men saying it was a problem. But sexual temptation, 62% of men said it was an issue for them. The church is very perplexed about how to get men to think about sex less. And so not to face this temptation.

 

My view (opinion) is that these two observations by Dedicated Christian men shows that the church is defining sexual sin way stricter than God or the Bible intends for us. These men weren't saying I want to rape women, I want to seduce women and then desert them, nor were they saying I want to forsake my children and the mother of my children. They were saying (as I'd also say), when I see certain women I feel drawn to her. I feel a desire for sex. I feel an excitement between my legs. Most of these men feel that that is sinful or at least has a good chance of leading them to sin. Right now my study has lead me to say that's the way God has created most men. Its not the least bit sinful. If I desired to or decided to rape a woman or seduce a women as a result of those God created desires then it would be been sin. Or to put it in terms of swinging, if I pushed a woman to have sex after she said "NO", and I wouldn't accept, "NO" then I've sinned.

 

Well, that's what I think today.

[WesternSwing 504]

dayhiker, I have this hypothesis about what you just said. Whenever you get one extreme, there will always be the opposite extreme. For example, one of the freakiest women I ever dated (and I say freakiest in the funnest way!) was an ex-Mormon missionary. The pendulum was pulled so far to one side for so long that when it was let go it swung all the way to the other side. This girl went from uber-conservative Mormon missionary to doing stuff that would make a porn star blush.

 

Watching the news supports my hypothesis even further. It seems the ones always nailed on sex related crimes are the ones that are the most surprising, the purest, best, most prominent members of their congregation. The neighbors are always on TV saying stuff like "He is such a nice man and taught the Sunday school and all. This is such a shock."

 

"Chastity: the most unnatural of the sexual perversions." Aldous Huxley

[dayhiker 83]

yes, WesternSwing, I've seen that pendulum swing myself. The stronger one says no to something the stronger the desire becomes quite often.

 

But some are content and comfortable living in the extremes.

[intravox 15]

For the Christians:

 

Those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ as your savior, and you know that all your sins past and future have been forgiven and forgotten and it is a gift not of works; only for His grace. Swinging doesn't condemn you, but you may cause for others little brothers to fall. And you know this is not right. (Gal 5:19-21)

 

For the non believers.

 

It is not ok, to mock of Christians, the Bible or God. In fact it was prophesied, and as in the days of Noah... There will be one day (believe it or not) where all tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord, whether in heaven... or in hell (and yes, the hell is a place of torment, that was prepared for the devil and its angels) "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? Ezek 18:23"

 

I think the Holy Bible has become something that its message actually prohibits: an idol. I mean, come on! It's wood pulp and ink covered by the preserved skin of a dead animal. And while the words in it are divinely inspired, they have been translated by man. Pure light through dirty lenses, if you will.

Do you mean that the authenticity of the Bible's message is null ????

 

For everyone:

* The bible was written in a span of 1400 years

* 40 different authors from all ways in life (Doctor, Tax collector, Kings, Fishermen, Shepherds)

* written in 3 continents (Asia, Africa and Europe)

And here is the most fascinating thing, embrace yourself, ready?: It accords on the consistent theme.- God's plan for human redemption.

 

But of course, those who have a Bachelor Degree in Bible knew this already, so this last note is for the non-scholars like me.

[WesternSwing 504]

For the non believers.

 

It is not ok, to mock of Christians, the Bible or God.

Non-believers? Quit mocking those that aren't Christian. Just because I don't believe as you believe, doesn't mean I don't believe.

[Spoomonkey 421]

Swinging doesn't condemn you, but you may cause for others little brothers to fall. And you know this is not right. (Gal 5:19-21)

 

Yep... That's why we don't swing in church...

 

That and the fact that the pews are too hard

[beaverz 18]

Warning another opinion ahead:

I’m not an expert on the bible, but I will play one on the internet. I have done some research (not school related, for my own understanding) on the bible and religion.

 

Posted by: Intravox

For everyone:

* The bible was written in a span of 1400 years

* 40 different authors from all ways in life (Doctor, Tax collector, Kings, Fishermen, Shepherds)

* written in 3 continents (Asia, Africa and Europe)

And here is the most fascinating thing, embrace yourself, ready?: It accords on the consistent theme.- God's plan for human redemption.

Not for everyone, only for those that are bored and have nothing better to do:

 

Intravox you are correct, but the main thing you didn’t add was the books of the bible was all written by man, assembled by man and interpreted by man. Most of the context of the bible is from dreams/visions and past events (sometimes hundreds of years old). The bible was assembled hundred of years after the books were written and there are questions why certain books were left out (book of Thomas). The context of the bible has been/will be interpreted many different ways. Even Christians can’t agree on the interpretation of parts of the bible.

 

The bible has only been available to a very small percentage of mankind. It is less than 2000 years old, was only in Europe for 1500 years, and has only become available to most of the world in the last 200 years. Many societies have done very well without the church.

 

History has shown man tends to do things in his own best interest. The bible can be very cruel, from condoned rape, murder, dismemberment, slavery, adultery and animal cruelty. These traits seem to be more of traits of men, then God, and what is scary many churches have utilized many of these traits.

 

Many Christians (not all) are under the assumption that non-Christians do not have the ability or the right to determine what is right or wrong for them. God touches us all very differently.

 

Disclaimer:

The above is the sole-expression of Beaverz and is not the opinion of this site. Beaverz takes no responsibility of any loses of souls do to the above. The opinion is not valid in New Jersey or Vatican City.

[dayhiker 83]

For the Christians:

Swinging doesn't condemn you, but you may cause for others little brothers to fall. And you know this is not right. (Gal 5:19-21)

 

Intravox, I suspect that if a Christian will fall is reading these posts he has already fallen. The reason I post is so they can be free from the condemnation the church has put on them and enjoy the freedom Christ died to give us. We are free to love others and free from the law. Its my prayer that once they know this they can return to faith.

 

I have read themarriagebed.com and found it to be a blessing. Not many Christians can even be as free to discuss sex as that site is. While they would call swinging a sin and I'd agree that sense they believe it is a sin, then for them it would be a sin to swing. Rom.13-15. So they are doing a lot of good. I also pray my posts here help people who want to live by faith and swing.

[Paphian 16]

Non-believers? Quit mocking those that aren't Christian. Just because I don't believe as you believe, doesn't mean I don't believe.

 

Boy is that ever right. 'Tis exceedingly unfortunate that one of the side-effects of the 'evangelical movement' in the USA is that there's a marked tendency for a significant portion of its adherents to assume that anyone not conforming to their particular interpretation of Christianity is somehow 'wrong' and 'not christian'. Couple that with the involvement of the same in politics and there's a recipe for real problems.

 

oh my goodness......!!!! what an incredibly negative view some of you have about God and the Bible

 

I don't think it's anyone's view of god or the bible that's really the problem. It's really a negative reaction to the loudly trumpeted (via quotation of scripture and its supposed 'literal, only' interpretation based on the narrow views of a few sects) claims of inerrancy by some sects that is the problem. There are literally dozens of sects of Christianity, both 'main-line' and evangelical, not only in the US but throughout the world. Each has a given way of interpreting scripture. I fail to see how any human being (or sect) can make a valid claim to being the sole 'correct' interpreter of that scripture, for (assuming one believes) no one can claim to know the mind of god.

 

Yet that seems to be happening more and more, and is, in every way, just as dangerous as the claims of some muslim sects that they alone know god's will. What's 'wrong' are the repeated claims by the SBC and AoG (to name just a couple of the most noisy sects) in the persons of guys like Falwell and Dobson (to once again name a couple of the most noisy claimants) and their followers to know the 'one true way'.

 

Frankly, unless and until god comes along and publicly tells all the rest of us that some specific group or individual is correct, the claims of inerrancy in interpretation made by guys like Falwell and Dobson (or groups like the AoG or the SBC) are incredibly arrogant (and to my mind, anyway, most unchristian). They are human beings like everyone else, and I fail to see how their claims of inerrancy of interpretation are any different than the claims of papal infallibility that they profess not to believe or the claims of various Muslim clerics that they find to be anathema. Whatever happened to the biblical ideas of humility and tolerance?

 

All of this is just my $0.02, obviously. I'm sticking with the idea that, "An thou harm no one..." (which is not an endorsement of Wicca, but merely a recognition of the fact that it's probably a good idea to live one's life in a relatively humble, charitable way) is the best approach.

 

And to bring the focus back to bear directly on swinging--how can a celebration of the gift of sexual pleasure (for, if one believes, how can it be other than a gift from god?) be in any way wrong? Assuming that no one is harmed by the practice (which is certainly what swinging is about), it seems clear that swinging is no more a religiously proscribed activity than any other activity aimed at doing some form of 'good', however great or small.

[SADIEBABY5656 15]

Okay, I am very passionate about this. I think all who are reading this know that. Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except thru Me."

 

Now one has to decide one of two things about Christ, He is who He says, or He was the craziest man on earth. Also in 2 Timothy 3:16 for those who doubt the inerrancy of Scripture...the Bible says that, "All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking and correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." So at this point, either we accept that by faith or we don't. God does give us the freedom to do so. He will not force one to spend eternity with Him, if you chose not to spend this very short life in His presence. I happen to accept it. I also know, Sweet Honey Tampa that when I stand before God, He will only see me thru the blood and righteousness of Jesus. Not a license to sin, but liberty to be who I am and know that God fully accepts me.

[Paphian 16]

Okay, I am very passionate about this.

 

As you've every right to be... for yourself. That's one of the great things about the good ol' US of A. We've got that right guaranteed in our constitution.

 

Also in 2 Timothy 3:16 for those who doubt the inerrancy of Scripture...the Bible says that, "All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking and correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." So at this point, either we accept that by faith or we don't.

 

Quoting a passage in scripture as proof of the inerrancy of scripture is circular reasoning. Not to mention that that passage says nothing about inerrancy without requiring the very interpretation I discussed.

 

But more to the point... it's not the relative truth, fallacy or inerrancy of scripture in and of itself that I question. It's the inerrancy of those who claim to know the "proper, one and only" interpretation of that scripture about which I have grave doubts.

 

We (as a people, not necessarily anyone here) argue about the fine points of law created only last week. How would anyone alive today know, without question or doubt, what, precisely, was meant that was written by people two to four thousand years ago? Very few people even have a clear idea about how people really lived from day to day that far back; claiming to know precisely what they meant when they wrote something that long ago is a heck of a stretch.

[Tantra 48]

Who wrote/inspired the bible? God. How do you know there's a God? The bible says so.

 

I have a fundamental problem with this.

 

Anyway, I lack belief in any god. My morality stems from doing my best to improve myself and the world because it is good for me and good for others. I consider sex to be like a physical conversation - one that is inspirational, exciting, and pleasurable. In my opinion, this can only further my happiness and that of others. This, to me, is a very good thing.

[Sweet_Candy 54]

Who wrote/inspired the bible? God. How do you know there's a God? The bible says so.

 

I have a fundamental problem with this.

 

Anyway, I lack belief in any god. My morality stems from doing my best to improve myself and the world because it is good for me and good for others. I consider sex to be like a physical conversation - one that is inspirational, exciting, and pleasurable. In my opinion, this can only further my happiness and that of others. This, to me, is a very good thing.

 

Ditto Tantra. So many people of faith seem to ignore that self improvement of yourself and the world we live in is the goal. The hereafter is obtainable by all, it's called death.

[dayhiker 83]

"How would anyone alive today know, without question or doubt, what, precisely, was meant that was written by people two to four thousand years ago?"

 

This is actually a very big deal in Christianity and has been for 150 years. Heck in one sense even back to Martin Luther in 1500's. A lot of church leaders want to bring in the latest research that helps us understand what the authors of the Bible were saying. But people in their pews says that that data undermines the gospels.

 

The opposite is also true. A lot of pastors don't want the new data revealed to the guy in the pew because then it will undermine the traditions of the church group they belong too.

 

I've belonged to many churches over the years and in my simple faith (I love to see the best in everyone.) I've found most church people love people and love God. They can also at the same time for reasons that aren't clear to me get a few verses of the Bible in their head and think ever one has MAJOR problems because they aren't living by that one idea.

 

So just like we are all good (created in God's image) and we are all evil ( we have all sinned) causes us to sound confused. Its also very real, for we all know we do good and evil. Well, I'm willing to say I'm both. You can make your own statement. But I like what Paul said in Rom.1. People have forsaken God because they weren't thankful and they didn't keep God in their thinking. Those two things have explained the world to me as good as anything I've read. But I'm sure you have your explanation just as I have mine. I accept that.

[MulderNScully 19]

Hey there,

 

I have a group called Christian Pro Erotic on Yahoo Groups which we discuss the issues of sexuality and Christianity: Yahoo! Groups

 

I believe that in Jesus we have the freedom to participate in this lifestyle; the thing Jesus is worried about is not what we do outside in our bodies or what we put inside our bodies, but what comes out of it. If pride, selfishness, attitude, etc. comes out then where is the heart at? This is what Jesus is concerned with the most.