Husband met them before and didn't tell me

[chinadoll 15]

Hi all. I just wanted to say that I am so happy I found this board. It has been a huge help. I do have a problem I am sorry to say, and I need some advice....We are new to swinging (I am the female in the marriage)...very new and had only talked to one couple online a few times and over the phone. We agreed to meet them last night, and I liked them and so did my other half. I found out yesterday before we went to meet them though, that my hubby went behind my back, and has talked to the female of the other couple over the phone a few times, online, and they met in person!! He says they didn't do anything, he just wanted to put a face with the name and voice. He met her on this last Friday... then we just went and met them as a couple last night (which was Sunday). I went through with meeting them last night knowing that hubby had already met her (the other lady) and I was so mad that I was going to blow it all out of the water at our meeting. Then I thought better of it. Then, as it turned out, I actually like the other couple. So, needless to say, I feel hurt and betrayed to say the least. After the other couple left last night, I approached hubby about the situation while still at the bar, and we talked about it. I started the conversation with..."Do you have something you want to tell me about you and (other lady)?" He denied at first...then admitted. I guess he met her while I was at the doctor's office. He could have been with me on that day for support instead. He must have called her the immediately after I walked out the door. I still have questions for him, but I have a problem now believing anything he says. I have trust issues with people after they lie to me. So, any thoughts on what to do here? All advise is greatly appreciated as I am really in agony here.

[Miss_Piggy 98]

If you were both going to meet the couple anyway, why didn't he just tell you everything from the beginning?

 

This seems very strange to me...

[chinadoll 15]

Thanks for the reply Miss Piggy, love the name also. I agree. What also seems strange is that at the same time we created our profile on our first swingers site...the other couple did also within a day or two. He says that it was a coinsidence, but how can I believe him. If we had decided to go at this all together, why should he have gone behind my back and met her without me knowing? Was it wrong or am I getting to upset over something small?

[lovedoctor 15]

If we had decided to go at this all together, why should he have gone behind my back and met her without me knowing?

 

Exactly. - Sounds like it has left you wondering if the two of them were having an affair?

 

If this were me, I would have a problem with the situation too. The plans for swinging need to be put on hold and ya'all need to solve the communication problems first. In my opinion. Honesty and openness are of the utmost importance before you go further.

[good times 991]

I was thinking something similar to Lovedoctor, I think it would bother me as much or more that the spouse of the other couple was willing to meet my partner alone as it is pretty universally agreed that this is not done in the lifestyle with people you both haven't met yet.

[chinadoll 15]

Yes, it has left me wondering about a possible affair of some kind. Our profile was created at the same time as theirs on the swingers site. I have never had to go through this in a relationship. Why do I feel in a sense that even if they only met once, that he cheated? Also, I don't think her husband knows. Should I tell him? Should I have my hubby tell the other lady that I know? I did like the couple...should we still be friends? As you can see...I have so many questions. I am a bit lost. Thanks again for the replies.

[lovedoctor 15]

Who's idea was it to start swinging and how did you get directed to the website you signed up for? If you had little or no input into that, then I would be extremely interested to talk to the other husband about how they became interested. But I would want to do it all right out in the open with the 4 of you present. Still, you can't just come out with the other couple about what your suspicions are. If they are unfounded, you would probably just alienate them as potential partners.

 

You could meet for dinner and casually bring up those questions. If he says that it was all her idea, then you may be onto something with your suspicions.

 

Or, you could just let it go as a lesson learned in communication - especially if you don't feel strongly that something was going on prior to your signing up and meeting them on line. Yet you might always wonder: "Was it my imagination or was it just bad judgement on his part?" - Frankly, I would have a problem with this woman agreeing to meet him without you, no matter how nice she turned out to be. That makes her a little untrustworthy to begin with. You could always tell your husband that you could have difficulty playing with them based on that issue, and that you need to find another couple. See how he reacts. (Hey, we have feminine wiles, why not use them?)

 

In any event, I would try to sort it out before you decide to progress with this couple (or any couple) as swing partners. And I would cover the "rules" once again. If your husband just made an honest mistake, he may take a lot of training prior to your going forward with swinging.

[jnaswinging 15]

This message was posted by chinadoll...I accidentally used a different username. Sorry for the confusion!!

 

Well, to answer your questions, it seems that hubby found the website from looking around on the net. It is a common website, so I am sure that it was easy to find. He did tell me that he created a profile on a site, but I didn't think much of it. One night I was taking a nap, and woke up and he said he was talking to the man in the other relationship, and to look. I did and I talked to him for a bit. I didn't really know much about the site and hadn't even seen it yet. He had a profile on there for about a week or so before I knew of it. He never really showed it to me until I woke up that night and he was talking to the other guy. When we were at the bar last night, the other lady mentioned that her hubby had created a profile on the same site and when she got home one night, he says "Look what I did honey!" then he showed her the profile he created. This was mentioned in passing and I am not sure how he found the site.

As far as alienating them as potential partners, I am not so sure that is a bad idea since she went behind my back also, it seems I can't trust her either. If that's the case, do I really want these people as friends? Let alone partners.

I do feel that it isn't fair that the man in the other couple doesn't know about any of this, but I don't feel that it's my place to say anything. I don't know if they are the type of people that are able to sit down and have a civilized conversation about this either. So I don't know how I would feel about asking them to dinner to talk about all this. I would really like for him to know, he feels the same way about this lifestyle. That it should be done as a couple and there should be no secrets or lies. It doesn't seem right either that she should be able to go behind my back and her bf's, and not have to suffer any consequences either.

[chinadoll 15]

Concerning message from jnaswinging!!

Sorry for the confusion all. I created my own profile for the site and the last post from jnaswinging, was me. I guess it was set to remember the name we have together and I didn't want to use that one. Hope I didn't confuse anyone.

[OttawaCuple 15]

Hi chinadoll,

 

I really feel for you.

 

Unfortunately, my gut feeling is that your husband and the other woman have been having a clandestine relationship and have got you and her husband to agree to swinging to facilitate their relationship (it's easier to hide a relationship that "appears" to be out in the open).

 

From my experience (yes, personal experience - until I realized what was going on and broke off from the guy, I was the unwitting "other woman" in a that's-what-the-wife-was-made-to-believe-it-was threesome), if you go along with swinging with them, the four of you MAY swing together sometimes, but don't be surprised if your husband continues to pursue a private relationship with her.

 

You need to really sit down with your husband and find out what's going on. Don't be afraid to let him know how hurt you are and how it's destroyed your trust in him.

 

(I'd even go so far as to insist that due to his sneaking around, that that couple is off-limits .... you'll never be able to trust that he's not seeing her behind your back.)

 

MrsOttawaCuple

[chinadoll 15]

I want to talk to him badly Ottawa, but he isn't that talking type. If they were doing something before all of this, I don't know how I would find out. If I ask him, and he says no, which he already has, how can I believe him now that he has lied to me? I might be able to use lies to get him to tell me, but then I am just as bad as he is. I can't thank you all enough for replies, you have no idea how much it helps me.

[OttawaCuple 15]

Chinadoll, I'm curious: Was swinging your idea or your husbands?

 

If it was your husband's, why did you go along with it? Were you also interested in it or did you agree to it because your husband wanted to do it?

 

In re-reading your posts, I get the feeling that he just sort of sprang the profile on you and that you and he never really talked about swinging before the profile was posted.

 

MrsOttawaCuple

[sereneiders 263]

I want to talk to him badly Ottawa, but he isn't that talking type. If they were doing something before all of this, I don't know how I would find out. If I ask him, and he says no, which he already has, how can I believe him now that he has lied to me? I might be able to use lies to get him to tell me, but then I am just as bad as he is. I can't thank you all enough for replies, you have no idea how much it helps me.

 

Well, the premise all swingers will tell you over and over is "talk, talk, and once tired of talking, keep talking". You need to talk EVERITHING with your couple before engaging in swinging, and all along the way. Every tought, every shade of doubt, every bit of fear have to be spoken and listened.

 

If you hubby isn't "the talking type" to the point that you cannot bring up an issue that geopardize your marriage so badly... then forget about swinging (moreover, I bet that the trat of forgetting about this will turn him into "the talking type" of guy).

 

As for me, this particular couple should be put "off limits". If he isn't the "talking type", then he wouldn't talk back about this... and if he does, they he already turned into the "talking type". Don't let him be a discretional "talking type", one who talks only when can take an adventage and doesn't when the topic frigthens his interests. All or nothing.

 

As for us, we have the freedom to speak with whoverer we want to talk without requiring the other permission, but we take the care of letting know the other that we did. Moreover, under our very personal rules, we are very respectfull of each other privacy, we agree every one have the right to have a private conversation with other people and it's a matter of choice to disclose it or not... but these are OUR rules, based on our degree of mutual trust, and we both feel confortable with our current rules.

 

It isn't the case, and he cannot claim it to become the case. You already have your rules (I hope you made these explicit), and he BROKE an existing rule, and worst, without your knowledge nor aproval in advance. So... why he wouldn't break other rules as well?

 

It doesn't care his motivations, if he's having an affair or if he isn't. It doesn't care if he is being honest with you about his motivations. He already screwed it up, and he must know he screwed up big time as to ensure he will follow the rules from now and on. He minated you confidence on his hability to preserve your marriage and protect you inside a swinging scenario, and that turned such an scenario into a very dangerous one for you. Unless reasured about his habilities, I wouldn't swing at all.

[apex 15]

Why not just tell hubby you're not comfortable with this couple because of the meeting he had with the other partner. I'd also tell him if he is ever caught in another situation like this swinging is off. There are plently of compatible couples out there so that should not be a problem; the problem is if he doesn't keep you informed and you feel you are not a equal partner in the swinging equation.

[wolfnblu 15]

Unfortunately, my gut feeling is that your husband and the other woman have been having a clandestine relationship and have got you and her husband to agree to swinging to facilitate their relationship (it's easier to hide a relationship that "appears" to be out in the open).

 

Ditto that, sorry.

[dayhiker 83]

Hi Chinadool,

Well, I'm going to suggest a differant possible way of looking at this.

Say your husband and this lady got to talking on the web. Sex often comes up in those chats. They hit it off. They wanted to stay faithful yet sensed the

sexual tensions that were between them. So they come upon swinging and can they get their spouces to join them in swinging. So they hatch a plot to get you all into swinging. They choose this site to create acounts, they tell their cpouces, they set up a meeting the meeting goes well. So you Chinadoll, since something was going on before the meeting.

Well, there are hundreds of spouces that come to this site to learn how to ask their spouce to join them in swinging. Probably more spouces are set up in a since then are not. If this is close to being acruate, I'd not let it divide you as a couple. Its the story have how you were introduced into having more fun with your husband. You still have a lot ot talk about as everyone says. If you want to swing, they press onward. You may have found a couple

that you and your husband can have a really good time with. You may have a husband that just wanted you invoved in his sexuality just as every potental swinger wants their spouce involved.

 

Have faith and tell your husband that your moving ahead with swinging and how the communication has got to start working or it wouldn't work out as he wants it too.

 

dayhiker

 

I want to talk to him badly Ottawa, but he isn't that talking type. If they were doing something before all of this, I don't know how I would find out. If I ask him, and he says no, which he already has, how can I believe him now that he has lied to me? I might be able to use lies to get him to tell me, but then I am just as bad as he is. I can't thank you all enough for replies, you have no idea how much it helps me.

[EvilMJ 65]

I feel for you Chinadoll.

 

Early on our swinging we played with a couple who we really liked. However one day i had to check Hubby's cell phone for him and found two very sexy phone messages from her. I can't even describe the feeling, that sinking in the pit of your stomache, the feeling of betrayal. I confronted hubby about it and he said he didn't realize I would be upset, which is why he never bothered hiding those messages. As it turns out she didn't think there was anything wrong with calling him like that and I thought I would do the same with her hubby. I was hurt because I felt like no one told me, and in my opinon it was crossing the line for me.

 

Anyway what this all comes down to is if you don't feel comfortable playing with a couple for any reason, then don't. It is not worth the discomfort. If you are concerned that hubby is cheating, then you definately have to talk to him and try to get him to open up. He may be cheating, or he may not, it may be a horrible misunderstanding. Give him a chance to give his side of the story, and be very open about your misgivings as to why this situation bothers you. I do agree with everyone though when they say this is not the correct way to deal wtih things and it leaves a bad feeling after you read it.

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

You have been given some valuable insight as to what may or may not be transpiring around you. I can see both sides of the coin on this one A) I am a firm believer in there are few (if any) coincidences in life however B) I was one of those that came here to ask advice on bringing up the topic to my Mrs.

 

The only thing I can really add here is to take all that we have said and compare it to his daily routines and demeanor....meaning does his daily habits / activities reflect secrecy or abnormal changes ect... or is he his normal everyday self ? the way he has been for months or years.

 

do a little observation and then have that talk with him, openly and calmly. Make your future choices accordingly.

 

IN MY OPINION if he has the balls to hide it then he should have the balls to talk about it.

 

 

One last thing.....how did you find out about the meeting

[kevin&danielle 16]

He denied meeting her when you first brought it up; he posted a couples profile with out telling you for quite sometime, he felt like it was more important to meet this woman than to accompany his wife to the doctors office. I don't know about your relationship but I can tell you what would have gone on in ours. This couple would be totally off limits and no communication would exist with them other than an email telling them that we weren't compatible. As far as swinging is concerned I could care less about it under those circumstances. My marriage would be top priority.

 

Kevin

[chinadoll 15]

Hi all. I just want to thank you once again for all your input. It is helping me so much and the more opinions and posts, the more it seems to help. Thank you all so much.

I will try to answer the questions as best I can and shed some more light to hopefully get some further perspective.

Ottawa...Hubby and I talked mostly of swinging in the bedroom during lovemaking. He was very interested in the idea of me being with another woman. I think we finally got to a point where he was interested in pursuing this, so we started looking at swinging together. I joined an email group while we were looking online one night and told him I was doing so. He was with me when I did it. A day or so later, he told me that he posted a profile on a site but didn't really tell me where and I didn't think to ask. I guess I was thinking that he joined another group like I did. When I did come across the profile he created, it was when i woke up one night from a nap (a week or so after the profile was created) he mentioned that he was talking to the man from the other couple and was just asking questions about the lifestyle. I was interested so I sat down and chatted with him a bit also. From the conversations that I have had since then (with the guy from the other couple), I feel pretty sure that the person I spoke to that night was him. But I have to admit, the profile was a bit of a surprise, even though he had mentioned it, I wasn't really aware that he was actively viewing other couples or chatting with them. I feel I need a bit of clarification on this with hubby now that you mention it. I'm not sure how long he was chatting with others when I came across hubby's conversation with the other guy.

 

Sereneiders...I am not sure that I can even trust the other couple now to swing with. If she went behind my back, wouldn't she do it again? If she didn't do it again, I would always wonder and that wouldn't make it fun for me I don't think. As far as talking goes with hubby, I have tried so many approaches with him, and he always gets defensive and rather cold really when it comes to something he screws up on. He doesn't admit fault very well or take responsibility for actions very well. I will say that he has in this case it seems, but getting him to talk about something that is upsetting, is near impossible.

 

Apex..I have told him that I am not comfortable with this couple now. He seemed to be dissapointed and had a defensive remark that I can't even remember now. I had to clarify for him one more time why I wasn't comfortable with them...because they both went behind my back and I have been hurt.

 

Dayhiker...I have thought about your scenerio a lot. At this point, I still think it is a possibility that it could have happened that way, but I am leaning more toward it being a coinsidence. I hope so anyway. But even though I have met them and they seemed great, I still have to look at the fact that she was talking to him online, on the phone and in person behind my back as well as her bf's. I'm not so sure I want to be with someone like that. Hubby says that I never would have met them. He just knew that I didn't want to. So, since he had talked to her online a couple times, they decided to talk on the phone. Talking on the phone, they discussed meeting to put a face with the voice. I guess since hubby was thinking I never would have met them, wanted to meet her just to say hi. He still claims it was an innocent meeting. He says that their other conversations were also innocent with the exception of not telling me. One morning when I came down stairs to see what he was up to, he closed out of internet really quickly...I thought he was up to something. Turns out that he was talking to her. I asked him why he didn't tell me. He says "Cause I didn't want you to know". Now I ask myself, "what does that mean?" Going back a few sentences...where I mentioned he just "knew" that I didn't want to meet them...now that I think about it...if he "knew" that I didn't want to meet them, why would he make arrangements to go ahead and meet her? Does this show intention? Could it really just have been no more that curiosity? He says it was just curiosity.

 

Evil...He had been rather cold talking about all this, but he has a tendancy to do that when he feels attacked. I try not to use words that would make him feel as such, but he still reacts as if he has been. I have given him a chance to give his story, I want to know hers now. I would like an opportunity to talk to her when she thinks I am hubby so that I can get a better feeling that hubby is telling me the truth about his story. It may seem mean, but at this point I am desperate and I tell you why.

Hubby and I have had other issues in the past, most couples do at some point. We had a horrible fight back in October and we weren't sure then that we would make it together. My question to him then was "Are you willing to do whatever it takes to make our relationship work?" He was unsure at first, then decided he was. Things until now have been fine. Now that his lying has hurt me...he seems to think that leaving me may now be an option. He says that he doesn't want to hurt me anymore. Now that I think about this further, couldn't he be using this as an excuse to leave because he is in fact seeing her? *sighs* I am right now faced with being alone and left to wonder what decision my husband is coming to as far as leaving me goes. He says he loves me and always will, but he doesn't seem to be sure if he is willing to do whatever it takes to make our marriage work. He says he doesn't want to keep screwing up and hurting me and now he knows I will never trust him again. I tell him that if he puts in the effort, we can get past it. But again I have presented the same question as before and am waiting.

 

Angedky...just in case hubby reads this post or comes across it, I would rather not mention how I found out. What matters is that I did. Your words of wisdom are wonderful. I am glad you mentioned to observe...I think I need to go back a little and recall some of his behavior.

 

Kevin...you said "As far as swinging is concerned I could care less about it under those circumstances. My marriage would be top priority."

I couldn't agree more. This is exactly how I am feeling. It seems that this situation has really blown into something much more than I thought. If he is now considering leaving so that he doesn't hurt me anymore, it is clear that our relationship needs work and swinging should be the least concern. I have a horrible problem with trusting others after they have lied to me. He has promised before not to lie to me again because he knows it hurts me so badly. This was a pretty bad lie as far as I am concerned. He admits he shouldn't have lied but at the same time doesn't think that a harmless and innocent meeting was such a big deal.

 

So, at the time I am typing this response, I am wondering what hubby is thinking as far as whether or not he wants to quit this relationship. Funny thing about it...not only is it Valentine's Day...it is also 5 years to the day that he proposed marriage to me. I realize that this has become more of a relationship issue now than a swinging one, but it seems that swinging and his meeting with the other lady is what set all this in motion. If anyone has any comments, again...they are greatly appreciated.

Btw...is there an award for "longest post ever" in this forum? =)

Thanks again all, sorry if I left someone out and I know I went on maybe more than I should have, but it did seem to help to get this all out. *hugs* to all that want one.

 

A couple other questions...should I pretend to be hubby and see if I can get any further info out of the other lady regarding their "time" together? Should I approach her as myself and ask? Should I tell her bf? Or should I just send an email and say that we aren't right for this? I don't really feel like she should get off scott free in her relationship...but I am really not the type to sabotage another's relationship. I wouldn't normally lie to get what I want either, but I want the whole truth here and I don't feel I am getting all of it. Thoughts?

[kevin&danielle 16]

I totally understand how you feel about informing her bf and would be very tempted myself but would personally opt to skip the drama and move on. Unless of course the meetings behind you back continue.

 

Kevin

[She_n_Jaybee 15]

Whew! This strikes quite a few nerves with me. About 12 years ago I met a woman online, started chatting with her, ended up meeting her. I was single at the time, a reasonably popular in the local online community. She was new, and her profile stated she was a bi female part of a swinging couple. It wasn't until after we'd had several meetings that I found out that only one half of that couple was swinging. I made a mistake and didn't walk away from her. She ended up divorcing her husband and a few years later married me. Shortly after that we got back online again, but were doing different things. I tried to involve her in my interests and tried to share hers. But she wanted nothing to do with my stuff, and really didn't want me into her territory. Needless to say, the marriage didn't last. At the end there was a lot of lies about online chats, phone calls, personal meetings etc., on both sides.

 

There were 2 other failed relationships after that. Both of them involved the person I was with meeting others behind my back, lying about it, then saying it was just completely innocent. I later found out in both cases that a lot more happened that wasn't innocent. I can deal with infidelity, but I can't stand being lied to.

 

Now I'm in a relationship that's different. Swinging was part of the beginning of our relationship and the trust is there between us. We both chat and do things online, but everything is open.

 

In the opinion of someone that has done it before, if there was nothing for you to worry about with your husband he would have talked to you about meeting this woman before hand. To test this theory, just ask him how he would feel if you had been meeting with some man that he knows nothing about while he's at work.

 

jaybee

[Vespertine 31]

He denied meeting her when you first brought it up; he posted a couples profile with out telling you for quite sometime, he felt like it was more important to meet this woman than to accompany his wife to the doctors office. I don't know about your relationship but I can tell you what would have gone on in ours. This couple would be totally off limits and no communication would exist with them other than an email telling them that we weren't compatible. As far as swinging is concerned I could care less about it under those circumstances. My marriage would be top priority.

 

Kevin

Big Dito

 

I wouldn't be as understanding as the OP seems to be...

[Vespertine 31]

This other woman isn't married?

 

That, in itself, might be reason enough not to play with them. She doesn't have anything to lose.

 

Also, how did the other couple interact with eachother? Do they have a long history together, is swinging new to them? Did they act like a couple?

 

Could her "boyfriend" just be a ticket?

[chinadoll 15]

Jaybee...I have asked him how he would feel if he found out that I was seeing another man or met him behind his back. At first he told me that it wouldn't be a big deal, but actually admitted that he may be saying that to justify his own behavior. Then admitted that he would probably feel upset, but would get over it pretty quickly. I am not the type to just let things roll off easily. I so wish I had that ability. So no, I don't think he would like it, but he won't whole heartedly admit it.

 

Ves...No, they aren't married. They have been together for about 5 years though from what i understand. From listening to them, I believe that. Now...that you have mentioned he may be her ticket? This could very well be. She has had very bad past relationships and this is the first "great" guy she has been involved with. She knows this and relayed this info to me. They acted like a couple for the most part. Hubby and I are usually touchy and feely...we make it a point to offer a love pat or some closeness a lot of the time. I didn't notice much touching or kissing or anything like that, but they seemed to be together. They told many stories about their travels and whatnot also. I believe they are a couple, just not for us. Something doesn't feel right. Swinging isn't too new to them. They say they have been a threesome one time, but it seems that in talking to them that one tells me that is all they have done and the other says they have been with another couple AND done the threesome. This is something else that makes me cautious. In any case, they seemed like nice people, but I don't really trust them so probably not a good idea to play with them.

 

Now...when hubby came home last night...he tells me that he loves me and wants to work to get past this and be there for me and us. This is a good thing, but he also tells me that he wants to pursue swinging. I am not sure how to feel about that. I did tell him that I thought we should put it on hold, but he seemed so dissapointed by that. This worries me. I guess I might feel a little dissapointed also, but knowing I have him is enough for me. I have asked him if I am enough for him and claims that I am, but how do you really know? I am so worried that he had developed a little obsession with swinging. How do I tell?

 

I wish I could express to you all how much you have helped me with this situation. I couldn't possibly thank you enough. (((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Thanks Again

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

First, Thankyou for taking the time to answer all of us (yes even me... you did you, just didnt realize it)

 

I think all of this stems from a lack of solid communication, I see bits of good communication between the both of you peeking thru, but not on a good solid consistent basis (and that is what you need to survive around here)

 

I believe he thought that with a little nudge, perhaps you would come around (be on his level of excitment)...why was he afraid of your veto, in fact what made him assume you would veto them (as a couple) in the first place.

Hubby says that I never would have met them. He just knew that I didn't want to

 

 

 

Something somewhere caused it, my guess is a little apprehension on "swinging" from you. (rightly so, this is a monumental decision)he just needs to understand your concerns. I think in all likelyhood he had the best intentions, yet the methods sucked ass !!! (but only you can be the judge of that based on the information you have read/seen!!)

 

And on the other side of the coin, why do you have to hide HOW you found out from him?? If you expect him to be open and honest with you, you cant be hiding things from him.

 

I think you are almost there, sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, just dont forget to look inward as well. Sometimes those little unintentional things we do, can have a huge affect on the other half, making communicating OH SO IMPORTANT

 

timeline (short version)

 

talk in bed

you say yes

you join internet site (he sees this)

he joins site (tells you)

contact between the profiles

emails and chats (tells you)

assumption of your disinterest

they want to meet (i dont think they are all that new)

maybe he can nudge you foward (maybe at their urging==pushy couple??)

he meets (doesnt tell you, ASSUMES your disinterest)

you find out

GAME

 

 

just my take, based on what you have written, hope maybe it helps

[LOL_OMG 130]

Trust is something that you not only need between the two of you but also with the couples you swing with, IMO. Plus if you cannot talk to each other then swinging is probably going to end in disaster. We talk about everything, and even with other couples. That way everyone knows what's desired and expected...and what boundaries everyone has. If they're worth knowing and swinging with....they will talk about anything and be open about it.

 

I would also say that if the hubby is getting into swinging in order to do this other woman, you'll find out in short order if you say "not this couple, lets find another.".

 

Mrs LOL

[LOL_OMG 130]

Er Yeah, what Mrs Lol just said....heh. Seriously, she hit the nail on the head with that one.

 

Mr. Lol_omg

[sereneiders 263]

chinadoll,

 

It seems to me you two aren't in the same page. You want to do eveirthing you can to save your marriage, he says he wants to but hesitating. He wants to play with other women (and you) in bed, and by now you want to put all of this on hold.

 

It seems to me you're under a lot of pressure here, in a situation where you foresight you may lose him no matter what you'd do. If you accept swinging, he isn't trustable enough and he may have an affair with the other woman behind your back, and if you don't, then you're affraid to not being up to his expectations and that you'd lose him because of that.

 

Clearly this is a very unfair scenario for you, and I suspect if you're up to go on with this, it's just because you have the hope that swinging will help fix up things.

 

Well, swinging is NOT a recipe to fix a marriage, that NEVER works, and if you hold such a hope, you're going to wreck whatever may be left from your marriage today.

 

Besides that, a premise required to save a geopardized marriage is that BOTH of you have to put the same level of effort to do it. BOTH of you have to be up to give up some things, and so far, it seems YOURE the only up to give up whatever you feel is required to fix your marriage (like swinging, keep meeting this woman, accept him to talk with her behind your back), while he are not even up to talk with you about all of this, and isn't up to put swinging on hold even when it's obvious that you're not being able to handle it.

 

If your marriage goes on, for sure it will be because of YOUR effort and not HIS, he doesn't seem to be doing anything to save it, but ask you to accept all and every one of his terms. And if your marriage get lost, it would be YOUR fault since being you the only one turning in actions your will to save it, it would be because of a mitake you did by taking some of these actions.

 

A marriage is like a charriot pulled by both parties, it doesnt work if you're the only one pulling it while he's sitting in the charriot.

 

I believe you have to make up your mind about producing some attitude change on him towards your marriage, or kick him out from your life and move on, and that you will keep going in circles until you understand there is no other way than be up to kick him out from your life, because if not he won't feel frightened.

 

By now and for you, it's not a matter on how to save your marriage, insthead to decide at wich price you want to save it, and if the price will be paid only by you, or if he have to contribute.

[vacplis4lovers 15]

In our opinion, he went too far. He cheated on you. He will do it again and for all we know, he is using you. I, as male, would have agreed that if I did that to my wife, she would have been more than justified is she did blow the whole thing. He needs a long talk with you and he needs to be abreast of what really is going on inside his head. Stop this before this gets out of hand and you get answers to all the questions you have.

[HappyPeople 17]

I would feel betrayed too.

[chinadoll 15]

Well guys, I think this very much stems from a lack of communication as ANGEDKY and most of you say. I think there was an enormous level of excitement there for him. I know from past experience in daily life, that when he comes across something that he is really interested in, he dives into it full force and sometimes without thinking things through clearly. I think this was another one of those times. Even with talking about everything, he was so absorbed with the idea of the lifestyle, he didn't really think of how each action would hurt me or if it might at all. In most other situations where he dived in like he does, he never really thought much of me either. I think these kinds of things consume him too much!! Seems that when he gets an idea of something and wants it very bady, he becomes very selfish.

Angedky...I think I was apprehensive about it all most because I was going through rough times in life anyway. I was dealing with so many things and hurting more cause hubby wasn't being supportive. Then the more interest I saw on his part in swinging, the worse it made me feel. When he would come home from work or from being out somewhere, the first thing he did was check email and our profile to see how many people have checked us out and who was online and so on. He spent a great deal of time checking these things out. Meanwhile, I was dealing with other problems and really needed him by my side and he wasn't there for me. I'm not sure he wanted to be brought down to where I was. He wanted to continue to feel the excitement of getting into the lifestyle. I beleive because of the way this made me feel, this is what made me take so much time in deciding on wether or not I wanted to meet the other couple. Hubby was seeing my disinterest, but not understanding why and decided to meet the other lady cause the hold that all of this had on him, was making him too impatient. As to the reason that I continue to hide how I found out....it's because I don't trust him yet. Not at all!! If I have to use this method again to help myself if I feel he is lying, I need it to be there for me. That may be wrong but I feel I need something on my side here. As for the timeline...I think it is pretty close...maybe a few little changes...

talk in bed

you say yes

you join internet site (he sees this)

he joins site (tells you)

contact between the profiles

emails and chats (tells you)

assumption of your disinterest

they want to meet (i dont think they are all that new)

maybe he can nudge you foward (maybe at their urging==pushy couple??)

he meets (doesnt tell you, ASSUMES your disinterest)

you find out

GAME

Very close!! I am so greatful that you all are able to follow this and help.

A few more things.....

Quote from Mrs Lol_omg:

"I would also say that if the hubby is getting into swinging in order to do this other woman, you'll find out in short order if you say "not this couple, lets find another.".

I must say...this is a great idea!! At this point, not sure if I will be able to use this or not, but if I have the opportunity, I will do just that. Everything else you mentioned makes perfect sense to me and was the very same thing I told hubby in the beginning. Even after all this happened, I told him again.

Sereneiders...You are correct in that I am under a lot of pressure. I am in many ways. Right again that I feel that I may lose him because of one reason or another. At this point, it is somewhat of a dissapointment for me too, to have to put my sexual fantasies on hold and if things aren't able to be repaired, then it would be permanently. However, my marriage is WAY more important, so I don't mind at all!! I feel also that swinging will not fix the marriage and I did consider continuing so that hubby would be happy and there would be less risk of losing him. But we all know that would end up worse for me in the end. It wasn't a very intelligent thought on my part. In light of more recent events revolving around this situation, I hope he is willing to put more effort into our relationship like he says he will. You are right once again, I can't pull it on my own and I have told him that also. I can only hope....

Vacplis4lovers....initially i didn't feel like he cheated...but there was a definate betrayal. To everything else, I agree completely.

Now...something else has happened. I hate that events keep coming up around this situation. Seems that while I was at the doctor's office again yesterday, he called her again!! When I got home..which was shortly after he left for work, I had to make a call. Not trusting him still, I checked the last numbers called and there was her number!! I noticed this just as I was descending the stairs and I can't describe the feeling that came over me. When I took the next step, I feel down the stairs and hit my head and bruised my body a bit. It turns out I am ok, just a few bumps and a little cut. At the time I was worried cause vision was blurry and ankle hurting not to mention the way I felt inside. I called hubbys work and indicated an emergency (was scared he wouldn't be there after knowing he called her again) and he called back. I told him that I feel and he rushed home. To shorten this up...when he got here, he checked me out...I was fine...I asked him why in the hell he called her and demanded to know what was going on. He told me that he only called her to tell her that I knew about the meeting. For some reason, he felt he should let her know. I still don't understand this!! I guess in light of everything, he says he will do what ever it takes to make me trust him again and repair our marriage...but I have lost all faith. I have hope that we can, but no faith that we will be able to. He sounded so sincere telling me that he only called her to tell her that I knew. He said he was going to tell me when he got home from work that he did. I still can't really understand why he was concerned enough about her to call her to tell her that. Where was the concern for me? I can't understand why he had to do it when I wasn't here either. All of this seems fishy to me and makes me wonder again if something is or was going on. I asked him once if he would tell me if something WAS going on and he said he probably wouldn't. He also said yesterday that because of where this situation has come to, he felt at this point that he may lose me and that all of details and the full truth needs to come out if it hadn't already. He still claims everything he has told me so far is the truth and is not leaving anything out. So.... if there was something...I really can't believe him either way. *sighs* He told me repeatedly yesterday that it was all over (referring to swinging and the lifestyle) and he would go to therapy or do WHATEVER it took to repair my trust and love. I so hope this is true and that all of the details have come out. If I find out something else later...I don't know what I will do.

Any advice on this new phone call would be great. I do have to apologize though...it seems that I have "spilled my guts" so to speak on everyone. This is a swingers forum and allthough it was a swinging related issue to start, it became more really. You guys probably didn't need to know ALL of my feelings and ALL of the details I have shared, but I got carried away typing. I actually feel some relief to have gotten some of this off my chest. Sorry if anyone feels I have shared to much, but thank you for allowing me too and for all of the wonderful advise and insight. Hope I didn't leave anyone out as far as my responses go too. I feel like I have made some new friends!! Thanks again all!! (((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

and hopefully this is the end of this situation.

[LOL_OMG 130]

He could have actually repaired some of the trust issues you have if he had simply called her with you there....and even have you two (girls) talk about it if you wanted to.

 

Swinging has to be about the both of you...we do it together. Emails, phone calls, meetings, picking couples we want to hang with. You're right in putting a stop to the swinging, it would only lead to more questions of trust in your mind...and as you have said he possibly gets a little over-indulgent or obsessive about new things.

 

Don't feel bad about pouring your heart out here. In fact, since your hubby doesn't like to talk about things....maybe he would rather read....and if you feel like it, let him read this thread.

 

Forgot to put in that this is the Mrs LOL

[chinadoll 15]

Yes LOL-OMG...I really wish he would have called or at least asked me if he could and have me there. I agree 100% that it would have maybe helped to repair some of the trust. As it stands, all it did was hurt me more and make make me feel that there was something more to the two of them. I thought about asking him to call with me there and maybe setting a time for the 3 or 4 of us to talk about it. But, how do I know if he told her yesterday that I knew only X amount of information regarding the two of them and that he has left out the rest? I wish I could think of some way that would help me to know that he has told me everything.

I do think that hubby has seen some of this thread, not sure if he read it thoroughly and I don't think he has read the latest comments. I may direct him to it when I feel the time is right. Thank you for understanding and allowing me to pour my heart out.

[sereneiders 263]

Sereneiders...You are correct in that I am under a lot of pressure. I am in many ways. Right again that I feel that I may lose him because of one reason or another. At this point, it is somewhat of a dissapointment for me too, to have to put my sexual fantasies on hold and if things aren't able to be repaired, then it would be permanently. However, my marriage is WAY more important, so I don't mind at all!! I feel also that swinging will not fix the marriage and I did consider continuing so that hubby would be happy and there would be less risk of losing him. But we all know that would end up worse for me in the end. It wasn't a very intelligent thought on my part. In light of more recent events revolving around this situation, I hope he is willing to put more effort into our relationship like he says he will. You are right once again, I can't pull it on my own and I have told him that also. I can only hope....

 

"However, my marriage is WAY more important"... mmm even than yourself? than your own happiness?... than your own life?

 

Sorry but, you're describing over and over a selfish pig up to do everithing he can to fulfill his desires, without looking at the consecuences for you. You said this isn't new, that you already sufered his lack of support... so I ask... then, what is what makes this marriage so valuabe for you? Kids? (I didn't heard of them so far) Or your fear of being unable to be alone and find out someone else wanting to be with someone as worthless as it seems you perceive yourself?

 

"I can't pull it on my own and I have told him that also. I can ONLY HOPE..."

 

You admit the only thing you can do is to HOPE, then you should know that's the ony strenght you have to pull it. And I've never seen a charriot being pulled by hope, instead by horses, bulls, people, dogs... but never seen a charriot move just because someone was sitting there, just hoping it will move.

 

Going on with the analogy, you DONT WANT to pull because you're affraid that, by pulling it, you may end up tearing the belts to find out the charriot didn't moved, at all, because of you. While you sit there, complaining and hoping, you're ensuring you won't get any proof on how weak or solid these belts already are.

 

And since this doesn't seem to be something new, I am starting to believe that some part of you is enjoying all of this.

[chinadoll 15]

sereneiders...trust and believe that there is NO part of me that is enjoying this. I was only typing out my feelings. A lot of people experience hope as an emotion. I don't feel there is anything wrong with that. I do agree that I need to place myself before anything...this is becoming very apparent to me. It seems I have a long road ahead of me regarding many things. I was simpling stating that my marriage was more important than the lifestyle... not that it was more important than myself.

 

"so I ask... then, what is what makes this marriage so valuabe for you?"

 

What makes this marriage valuable to me is love. However, asking this question has me thinking. For that I thank you. It is a perfectly legitamate question in light of this situation.

"Or your fear of being unable to be alone and find out someone else wanting to be with someone as worthless as it seems you perceive yourself?"

 

Could you explain this further? I'm not sure I understand this question.

 

Yes...right now hope is what I have...at least it is something. While it may not actually pull any chariot, I have hope that when I finally feel strong enough to try and pull again along side my husband...that it will move and that the belts will not break. Forgive me if I don't follow the whole idea of pullings chariots. I don't always do well with that sort of analogy. Also, yes...I may not want to pull for fear of tearing the belts. Sometimes people get scared and they may not want to pull right away. Not everyone heals the same. I am a slow healer and until I feel ready to pull, I won't. I know that I will though. I am hoping...that is for certain..I don't however feel that I am complaining. I am sharing my situation with others in the lifestyle that have experience "hoping" that maybe others have some insight. It has helped immensely.

I don't know what will become of my marriage...like i said, it will be a long road to repair...all I know is that we can work on it and I can "hope" for the best outcome possible, since at this point I don't know for sure what the outcome will be. This situation has taken a lot out of me. For some, it may not be a big deal, but it was to me. Maybe I am not as strong as others, I don't know. But I can tell you, I am not enjoying this one bit and I am ready to move on regardless of how scared I am.

[OttawaCuple 15]

Chinadoll,

 

I'm glad you've recognized this whole thing for the serious problem that it is. As much as what everyone has said on this thread has been excellent advice, and I'm sure it's been very helpful, we are all just ordinary people offering personal advice based on our own experiences, we are not trained professionals.

 

At this point, I think you and your hubby should book some appointments with an experienced sexual/marital health therapist. One who specializes in male sexuality and the male psyche would be especially good

 

I also think you'd be best to find a male therapist as it's not uncommon for men, when faced with a female therapist, to say "she's just a woman, of course she's going to side with my wife, what does SHE know about what a guy goes thru" and to ignore whatever advice she gives. You want a therapist that your hubby will feel comfortable with and who he'll feel he can trust to help him sort thru HIS needs as much as the therapist will help you sort thru yours.

 

Good luck ... you've probably got a long and difficult road ahead, but with open minds, your love for each other, and a desire to make it work, there IS hope.

 

(((((HUG)))))

 

MrsOttawaCuple

[sereneiders 263]

"so I ask... then, what is what makes this marriage so valuabe for you?"

 

What makes this marriage valuable to me is love. However, asking this question has me thinking. For that I thank you. It is a perfectly legitamate question in light of this situation.

"Or your fear of being unable to be alone and find out someone else wanting to be with someone as worthless as it seems you perceive yourself?"

 

Could you explain this further? I'm not sure I understand this question.

 

Yes...right now hope is what I have...at least it is something. While it may not actually pull any chariot, I have hope that when I finally feel strong enough to try and pull again along side my husband...that it will move and that the belts will not break. Forgive me if I don't follow the whole idea of pullings chariots. I don't always do well with that sort of analogy. Also, yes...I may not want to pull for fear of tearing the belts. Sometimes people get scared and they may not want to pull right away. Not everyone heals the same.

 

(...)

 

Maybe I am not as strong as others, I don't know. But I can tell you, I am not enjoying this one bit and I am ready to move on regardless of how scared I am.

 

I was mean because I read all the posts in the tread and it seemed to me you were going in circles, so I wanted to shake your wold this way.

 

There isn't anything wrong with having hope, it just seemed to me that you're unsure about how much you can rely on your husband, and in the other hand you feel yourself trapped in such a way that any movement you may do could geopardize your marriage even more, so basically it seems you're paralized here, and the lack of alternatives leaves you sitting there only with your hope.

 

And I point out, this is something that SEEMS TO ME to happen, and I am not only reading what you said, also the way you say it, the words you choose to use and the ones you choose not to use. Just from the arrangement of your posts, it seems to me you're trying to think about this while needing to wind up, sometimes you have the cold blood to think, some others it seems you're overwhelmed by fears, some others you express your feelings as they come while you're typing. There is nothing wrong with this, but I think you need to find a place where to stay and gather the energy to break this circle. This place could be your feelings, your fears or your cold blood, but it seems you keep spending your energy by jumping from a place to the next.

 

One of the things that calls my attention along all your posts is the way you're protecting your husband from your feelings, something that you peg with protecting your marriage, altough IMHO it isn't the same. You admited he were unable to rely on him in the past (giving you certain degree of conficence about being unable to rely on him again today), you described him as selfish and careless about you, and even so you're still in love with him, so I have to supose that either 1) he give you some other things that you didn't told us about, or 2) that you love him BECAUSE of this, as if somewhere inside you, you were sure that you deserve to be treated this way.

 

I don't know, and it doesn't matter if I ever know, but I believe it is important for you to know why you're in love with him, what's that thing that attracts you to someone who, in the other hand, over and over does things that hurts you. After describing in detail the ways you're being hurt by him, it seems to me this question became more and more relevant, because this love you feel, this need for him, inside this notoriously umbalanced relation of power you have, made me suspect that you're giving him more credit than the one you give to yourself.

 

From here the question you asked me to rephrase, because if you cannot give yourself more credit than the one you're giving to this selfish and careless guy, you'd be asuming you doesn't worth a better treatment from a guy. Something like "I don't deserve to be loved and this guy loves me when no one else would, so I'd have to be gratefull and accept whatever he wants to give to me, no matter how painfull it is, and the only thing I can do is to ask him the favor of treat me in some less painfull ways, and hope he will grant me this favor even when I don't deserve it". As if, by the time you knew him he turned into the White Knight that saved your life.

 

This may not be the actual scenario, but there are enough details hanging around as to suppose it may be, and if it were, then your problem would be that the only way you know to get some love is begging for it because of charity, because you still didn't find out inside you things worth to offer and trade. Bus suposing this is the case, believe me, you have these things, and finding them is a matter of learning, as it is a matter of learning the trading required to have a power balanced relationship with other people (and this is one of the details I mentioned before, you doesn't seem to figure out how to negotiate your relationship with your husband).

 

I agree with you when you say not everyone heals the same (moreover, nor at the same pace), and I strongly believe that you reached to a point where you're unable to heal yourself by means of the ways you used to heal yourself before, and that you need help, a help you're asking for in this forum, but as MrsOtawaCouple said, we're not trained proffesionals able to provide you the help you're looking for.

 

At this point, the fact is that you know we're not proffesionals but ordinary people, and even if some of us were hitting the nail here, you'd be getting it in between a lot of personal opinions, all with the same degree of confidence, thus the wole thing becomes a noise that adds up to the noise you already have, and with our best intentions we may end up helping you get even more confused. A proffesional won't tell you his/heroppinion, moreover, he/she wont give you a solution, but guide you trough the proper questions as to help you break this circle, and you will know these questions are relevant because they doesn't come from ordinary people.

[chinadoll 15]

Thank you again all for the input.

Sereneiders.... I'm not sure how you managed to understand all that you have from only what I have typed, but somehow, you really got under the surface of things about me. Many things you mentioned are very true and some I didn't even realize myself until reading your last post here. I am planning to sit down and really evaluate some of the questions that came to mind after this post. Not all of it is entirely correct, but many things are. It really amazes me that you were able to see as much as you have about me. I want to thank you. It had brought some things to light and really made me think. You know, take a real long hard look at some things. Yes...I am absolutely going in circles...I would like to put a stop to that and feel some sort of consistancy. Not sure how to do that though. It seems to me that before I can move forward, I need to FEEL like I know the truth about the whole situation.

QUOTE: "it just seemed to me that you're unsure about how much you can rely on your husband, and in the other hand you feel yourself trapped in such a way that any movement you may do could geopardize your marriage even more, so basically it seems you're paralized here, and the lack of alternatives leaves you sitting there only with your hope."

Yes...I am unsure on how much I can rely on hubby...all of what you said here is true. I think I knew this, but wasn't so totally aware of it until it was mentioned here.

QUOTE: "the words you choose to use and the ones you choose not to use. Just from the arrangement of your posts, it seems to me you're trying to think about this while needing to wind up, sometimes you have the cold blood to think, some others it seems you're overwhelmed by fears, some others you express your feelings as they come while you're typing. There is nothing wrong with this, but I think you need to find a place where to stay and gather the energy to break this circle. This place could be your feelings, your fears or your cold blood, but it seems you keep spending your energy by jumping from a place to the next."

Again, correct. This is something that maybe I am more aware of now, just still unsure of what to do about it. I am open to all suggestions though, with the complete understanding that you nor anyone else is a professional.

QUOTE: "One of the things that calls my attention along all your posts is the way you're protecting your husband from your feelings, something that you peg with protecting your marriage"

Not sure on this. I don't think I am protecting him from my feelings about the situation, but I think it may be possible that I am not sharing ALL of the feelings in general that I am having. To be honest, I think it is less of a matter of protecting and more of feeling like he may not care or that it may set the ball rolling for seperation. Yes, I am worried about seperating and divorce, I love him and had intentions of spending the rest of my life with him. It's not that I don't want to be alone, I don't want to be without HIM.

QUOTE: "You admited he were unable to rely on him in the past (giving you certain degree of conficence about being unable to rely on him again today), you described him as selfish and careless about you, and even so you're still in love with him, so I have to supose that either 1) he give you some other things that you didn't told us about, or 2) that you love him BECAUSE of this, as if somewhere inside you, you were sure that you deserve to be treated this way."

Right again for the MOST part. I think there could be many reasons that I am in love with him. This is where it gets tricky. You managed to make me think..."Why do I love my husband?" So far, I am only able to come up with things that I love ABOUT him. Is that the same thing? (this question also stems from the paragraph following the preceeding one.)

QUOTE: "As if, by the time you knew him he turned into the White Knight that saved your life."

[chinadoll 15]

looks like i got ahead of myself and posted to soon...here is the rest....

 

to the last quote...

I am wondering if maybe I see him this way also. Still trying to decide.

QUOTE: "you doesn't seem to figure out how to negotiate your relationship with your husband)."

If I am understanding this statement correctly...I think I try to negotiate or compromise...not feeling like there is effort on him part though. The more I look at all this, the worse it is starting to look.

QUOTE:" I strongly believe that you reached to a point where you're unable to heal yourself by means of the ways you used to heal yourself before, and that you need help, a help you're asking for in this forum, but as MrsOtawaCouple said, we're not trained proffesionals able to provide you the help you're looking for."

You may be very right about this also. It does seem that the ways in which I used to use to heal before aren't working here. I am learning that just by talking and getting others perspectives, that it helps me to think and really look at things. This is giving me answers. I know very well that you all are not professionals, but different perspectives seem to be helping. Then what I can do with the questions and thoughts I have come up with, is go through them with my therapist. I wouldn't say that you are adding to the noise or confusing me more at all. Like I have mentioned, it helps to have someone to talk with and get different opinions from. I think what I need most though, is to feel like I know that whole truth no matter how it hurts. When I feel that I do, then I can begin to move on comfortably.

Thank you all again for all your thoughts.

[sereneiders 263]

QUOTE: "you doesn't seem to figure out how to negotiate your relationship with your husband)."

If I am understanding this statement correctly...I think I try to negotiate or compromise...not feeling like there is effort on him part though. The more I look at all this, the worse it is starting to look.

 

Well, that wasn't what I meant, but since this is the way you understood it, I gess you may be right.

 

What I mean is that, to negotiate you have to trade things. In this scenario, you should have something to offer, valuable enough to make him trade his commitment and some attitude changes. You're basically selling something, selling yourself as a "product", and you want to get the higher possible price (i.e., get all the things you expect him to change).

 

To be able to do this, you have to have an in deepth knowledge about the product (about yourself), as to be able to claim for a price by enhancing the product better features, and by "hidding" the worst ones, so by the time the trade negotiation began, you can have arguments to support the values you claim.

 

Then it comes the second problem that worries you, and this is the one more remarkable from your words: if you set a price too high, that doesn't reflect it real value, your husband may stop bidding and look around for another product (another woman) able to sell herself at the price he want to pay.

 

So, the issue here is that you don't have an in deepth knowledge about yourself. Perhaps your hubby, your family, people around you along your life managed to point out your worst features and you reached the point where you're unconfident about the better ones, if they're there, if the gessing about the ones you think you have are delusional, and so forth, so you ended up undervaluating the product. As a result, you know you're not able to negotiate this trade, and you avoid the negotiation at all, and you ended up accepting the price he had been set for you, over and over.

 

Moreover, you "bought" him at his own price, you believe he have the nice features he promoted for himself, features that he may actually have, but that you're uncertain about, and in the balance these features have more weight than the worst ones he have, even when you're certain about the later ones. So, to be able to trade, you have also to know him as deepth as you can, to know the product and valuate the better features and to point out the worst ones that dimish the price he's asking.

 

You said "I'm not sure how you managed to understand all that you have from only what I have typed, but somehow, you really got under the surface of things about me". Well, what you described to us, over and over, is the dinamics of this trade negotiation with your husband along the history, and moreover, that you're so aware of this dinamics that you know in advance you will lose the trade one more time if you don't learn how to improve your negotiations skills.

 

What I know for sure is that people isn't THAT different from one another, we all have the same needs of love and atention, and what varies from one to another is the way we learned to fulfill those needs, needs that are like water: you require it to survive, and even the lesser amounts are better than none at all.

 

We born alone, we'll die alone, and we live in a desert where you can get lost in the middle of nowhere and find yourself without any chance to get water and die lonely, so when you (or me, anyone) learn the path to reach to some water, you preffer to go trough that path over and over, because you know that, even when not leading to enough amounts of water, you'll find out some. The problem is, when you get your water trough these paths, and you cannot get enough as to save for later, you cannot affrod the risk of exploring new terrains, and ultimatelly your chances end up limited to the few paths you know. But you reached the point where the amounts of water you are able to collect trough this path aren't enough to survive anymore, and you're "pretty sure" you'll die if you dare to explore the unknowns, so you're asking us to tell you how to squeeze more water from your current source.

 

So, the first thing I believe you have to understand is that you requirements are the same than the ones everyone around you have, that you have the same resources to fullfill them everyone around have, but that you didn't learn how to get rid of these resources.

 

Now lets take a look at your hubby and his very personal piece of desert (from what you said). He didn't learn how to travel long distances to seek for water (he's not up to make big changes), he also have paths where he's used to get water from, these are short paths, and he have the skill to dig deeper for wather, and squeeze the sand to get every last drop form it. And here, you're the one being squeezed, and you barely have water for yourself, but even so he still keep squezing because he needs it to survive. In the proccess, he made you believe he's an explorer, that he can afford to explore new terrains looking for water, so if you refuse to be squeezed, he will find out water somewhere else. And perhaps he's right, perhaps he was able to save more water than you as to dare to explore if you don't let him squeeze at will.

 

But the problem is your survival, not his, and even if you love him enough to let him squeeze you for him to avoid the risk of exploring new terrains and die alone, if you ever dry out, he will go away anyway. And he's telling you he cannot get the water he used to get from you anymore, so you feel him squeezing harder and you're freaking out.

 

Ever saw "baywatch"? In the real world, gess what's the first thing sea lifeguards have to learn. It's how to fight AGAINST the one they're trying to save from drowning, how to knock them out, even at the risk of killing them in the proccess. And this is because the drowning one, in the middle of the panic, easily can drag the lifeguard with him/her and kill them both, so for them both, the only chance they have to survive is to ensure that the lifeguard is able to survive, even at the price of risking the drowning one life.

 

So, even if you want to save your marriage and provide him what he needs, you have to learn how to survive yourself, and be up to knock him out at the risk of losing him. If you cannot swim, and he cannot either, you'll both lose.

 

Now, lets go back to the trading skills. He needs water as badly as you do, he used to squeeze you over and over for water, and it's likely that, the more he did this, the more he's afraid of exploring the unknown. Besides what you have to offer for your product, you know some about the value this product have for him: it's a source of water. You'd have to reach a deal where you'll provide him water at your own pace, without being squeezed for it. And if you find out the only way he know to get water is by squeezing, and he is not up to learn other ways, let him go to squeeze someone else, because he doesn't worth the price he is setting for himself.

 

In this deal, you're the one providing more real value to the relationship, and you're being underpriced, while he's the one providing less real value while being overprized. He may want to leave, he may find someone able to "buy" his product at the price he wants, but sooner or later he will find himself in the same situation: in a relationship where he's unable to provide the same assests that his eventual partner does. And here's the tool you have to bid: to make him face this truth. How? Here's where you need to improve your skills.

 

QUOTE:" I strongly believe that you reached to a point where you're unable to heal yourself by means of the ways you used to heal yourself before, and that you need help, a help you're asking for in this forum, but as MrsOtawaCouple said, we're not trained proffesionals able to provide you the help you're looking for."

You may be very right about this also. It does seem that the ways in which I used to use to heal before aren't working here. I am learning that just by talking and getting others perspectives, that it helps me to think and really look at things. This is giving me answers. I know very well that you all are not professionals, but different perspectives seem to be helping. Then what I can do with the questions and thoughts I have come up with, is go through them with my therapist. I wouldn't say that you are adding to the noise or confusing me more at all. Like I have mentioned, it helps to have someone to talk with and get different opinions from. I think what I need most though, is to feel like I know that whole truth no matter how it hurts. When I feel that I do, then I can begin to move on comfortably.

 

That's true, but I believe you already got enough to diagnose the problem, at least the part over the surface. Now you need to diagnose under the water, and moreover a prognosis.

 

There's anything wrong on keep gathering opinions WHILE you go for the prognosis. But you have skills to develop and learn, you have to get an in deepth knowledge of yourself and some better understanding of your husband, you have to disect your relationship looking for what you want to save and what you want to throw away. It's a lot to do, the sooner you start doing it, the sooner you'll reach to a solution, and for this you should look for a proffesional. It wont be easy, and it will take time, but I strongly believe the outcome will worth the effort.