Is cheating hot?

[Livin24nic8 15]

I know the swinging lifestyle is all about being with someone and having sex with others at the same time, but does anyone find it hot to cheat or sneak around? I know it's fucked up and destructive, but I am just trying to be honest.

[jennandjamesinm 87]

Just do a search for cheating etc. You will find that on this board, there is little tolerance for cheating.

[Spoomonkey 421]

I know it's fucked up and destructive

 

Sure is...

 

Oft' discussed topics. Cheating is not swinging. You'll find many of us have a high respect for marriage - which makes our swinging possible...

 

Spoomonkey

[Livin24nic8 15]

Sure is...

 

Oft' discussed topics. Cheating is not swinging. You'll find many of us have a high respect for marriage - which makes our swinging possible...

 

Spoomonkey

 

Yes... I actually never done it, but I do find myself thinking of it being hot because it's so bad to do...

 

Last night, I saw the movie "Sideways".... There is a scene where a waitress who was just a normal girl bangs one of the characters in the movie and the hubby catches her cheating... Then later, he is banging her and talking dirty to her calling her a slut for cheating. Crazy but I admit I found it hot.

 

Again, never done it... Just got turned on by the idea.

[curiousagain 326]

Some people certainly do get off on it. Those of us that don't try to avoid them. To each his own. As a rule, it's not tolerated in swinging any more and maybe even less than in the vanilla world.

 

I think that is because so much of success at swinging depends on honesty and trust and well........not much of that is involved in cheating.

[Spoomonkey 421]

You'll find that the issue of swinging is a hot one - and one that doesn't go over very well at all.

 

The scene you describe is hot, but it is something that happens to a safer degree under the swinging umbrella all the time. It is called hot wife or cuckolding. Wife goes out - has some fun - comes home to hubby who gets a charge out of the experience. Of course, this falls within the boundaries of the couple.

 

Spoomonkey

[Livin24nic8 15]

You'll find that the issue of swinging is a hot one - and one that doesn't go over very well at all.

 

The scene you describe is hot, but it is something that happens to a safer degree under the swinging umbrella all the time. It is called hot wife or cuckolding. Wife goes out - has some fun - comes home to hubby who gets a charge out of the experience. Of course, this falls within the boundaries of the couple.

 

Spoomonkey

yeah.... thats also as hot I guess.

[sexyshelby 19]

I agree with Spoo. I think having sex with other people is hot, but it's only hot if I can share my experience with my boyfriend.

 

~SS

[pumpkins1970 17]

Cheating to us isn't hot or sexy, it's hurtful. There is no room in our marriage for it what-so-ever. We have both been hurt by other SO's in our lives before we got together, so we both know the pain it can bring.

[Guest MrsVan]

Cheating to us isn't hot or sexy, it's hurtful. There is no room in our marriage for it what-so-ever. We have both been hurt by other SO's in our lives before we got together, so we both know the pain it can bring.

 

 

I agree with Pumpkins here! MrVan and I have been in previous marriages where this has happened to us. It is very painful and is something that I would never fantasize about. For those who think of cheating and get turned on by it to me it sounds as if you have some insecurities in your own relationship but instead of working on them or talking about the problems with your SO, you are trying to find a way out..Wrong way to go!

 

Cheating is wrong! Swinging is about sharing things with your SO and fulfilling fantasies you never thought could be fulfilled. Cheating is not one of them. We have been contacted by men who say they are single but come to find out they are married and that is a huge turn off for us. Too much baggage for us.

 

No one can stop you hear on the board to make whatever decision you choose but just remember that cheating is NOT swinging and is not accepted on the board.

 

MrsVan

[VancouverCouple 15]

Well this is my first post but I thought I'd share as this is a topic I find interesting.... not because of something I did but rather what happened to me..

 

A long, long time ago, my wife had an affair. It lasted about 2 months I guess and then she told me about it. It was still going on and she didn't know what to do (stay or leave or whatever).

 

Anyway the night she told me and "some" of the details, I found myself really horny (and obviously very upset). I could tell she was really wet/hot herself. At the time I was so pissed off I didn't sleep with her as I just didn't think it was right.

 

Then over the years I have read about how our DNA is wired such that men are arosed by their wives infidelity, it has to do with your sperm kicking the ass out of Mr. Xs sperm.

 

I have always wondered if this is why swinging is such a turn on as people are leveraging this cheating DNA thing.

 

We are still married today. We don't swing (yet) but I find it a very curious subject and think about it more and more......

 

Mr VC

[sexyshelby 19]

Interesting theory.

[WesternSwing 504]

Then over the years I have read about how our DNA is wired such that men are arosed by their wives infidelity, it has to do with your sperm kicking the ass out of Mr. Xs sperm.

 

I have always wondered if this is why swinging is such a turn on as people are leveraging this cheating DNA thing.

This is an interesting theory, and one that goes to the basic hardwiring of human nature. I definitely love to have sex with Mrs. WS after she has been done really well by someone else (which supports this theory being an unconcious response), and once in awhile I like to send her on little "missions" alone, but I love watching her with someone else even more, and visa-versa. With her there is no one sperm kicking the hell out of the other sperm response going on, either.

 

And as others have said, within the swinging community cheating is very frowned upon. So many married men looking to cheat think hooking-up with a swinger couple would be easy, but it's not.

 

Mr. WS

[JnCC 24]

over the years I have read about how our DNA is wired such that men are arosed by their wives infidelity, it has to do with your sperm kicking the ass out of Mr. Xs sperm.

 

I have always wondered if this is why swinging is such a turn on as people are leveraging this cheating DNA thing.

I think Desmond Morris covered this subject in his "The Human Sexes" series a few years ago. As I recall, men cum both more forcefully, and in greater volume, when the opportunity for her to have another lover is present.

 

In other words, you don't have to know she had sex with another man...all you need to know is that she could have had sex with another man...for the orgasms to be stronger.

 

I know that as a single guy, I have much more intense orgasms with women who are seeing other men, than I do with ones who want to play "lap dog."

 

It's the exact opposite of what "conventional wisdom" tells us about male sexuality.

[TerryforSex 14]

Its not cheating whn you and your spouse are in agreement on the matters of having sex with other people...either at a club or with friends when they are not around.

[ShellyM 0]

I know the swinging lifestyle is all about being with someone and having sex with others at the same time, but does anyone find it hot to cheat or sneak around? I know it's fucked up and destructive, but I am just trying to be honest.

 

Ummmm, no its not okay to cheat in my opinion. It might initially feel dangerous and naughty or whatever thrill is given; but the guilt that you feel after must eat away at you. Thank goodness I have no personal experience with cheating. So my answer to you is no, its simply not good in any way.

[coollatinos 15]

I don't have the "numbers" to confirm it, but I believe that cheating IS HOT because so many people do it! I wonder how many offended spouses forgive and take back a cheating spouse for love? It's probably more than those that actually divorce!I believe that a spouse will be more likely to risk getting caught cheating than face the wrath/disgust of their mate's response to the suggestion of sex outside of marriage.It would be cool if the majority of couples could separate love from sex!

[ShellyM 0]

I don't have the "numbers" to confirm it, but I believe that cheating IS HOT because so many people do it! I wonder how many offended spouses forgive and take back a cheating spouse for love? It's probably more than those that actually divorce!I believe that a spouse will be more likely to risk getting caught cheating than face the wrath/disgust of their mate's response to the suggestion of sex outside of marriage.It would be cool if the majority of couples could separate love from sex!

 

Well I'm not understanding what you are meaning in cheating...because swinging in how we play is NOT cheating. We consentually have recreational sex with others.....the key word being CONSENTUAL. So when you say you wish more people could separate sex from love I say that lots of people can, as we prove. However, its simply not something that all people can do. We all have friends that see sex and love in one same vein; and that is okay. We aren't all wired the same way, its as simple as that. Yes, lots of people cheat. I am contacted almost every day by married men looking for a fling while they are out of town on business. Do people take back cheating spouses? Yes, for more reasons however than they think its okay. Some couples stay married for the children, for economic reasons, religious reasons, etc. etc. and etc. But not many stay together because it turned her or him on. Yes, I know some do. But not as many as you are making it out to be. I don't know; I have no experience in cheating spouses as I said before...perhaps others can give better info than I can in this area.

[drziggy 89]

Cheating is as cheating does.....

Cheating could be described as having sex with someone without the consent, and knowledge of the primary partner.

Can this be a turn on for some people? Absolutely!

Is it destructive? Perhaps! It could be put on par with the individual taking half the couple's money and blowing on gambling without the consent or knowledge of the other person. If the money is replaced and there is not harm done to the finances of the couple, it really doesn't matter....

Should other people (swingers and otherwise) be tolerant of it? Actually, it is no one's business what people chose to do with their private lives. For as much as swingers complain about vanilla people bashing their lifestyle, they, in turn, pass moral judgment on anything considered "cheating" ans though swinging has given them the right to become moral compasses.

Some people will always be attracted to the forbidden. So long as no one gets hurt in the process, I say "Enjoy it!"

DrZiggy

[drziggy 89]

Have a look at research by Robin Baker, British biologist on that subject (mentioned by Morris in one of his documentaries).....very interesting work indeed. Men's output of sperm after separation from their mate is the subject of a book called "Sperm Wars" dealing with sperm competition, a rather controversial but provocative theory (men have three types of sperm, one of which is designed to kill other men's sperm that may be present within the cervix). The suggestion is that women are biologically programmed for serial mating (many men at a time..) and men are programmed to deal with that eventuality. Also, the back flow out of a woman's vagina is directly related to her desire to keep, or not, the sperm of the man she has had intercourse with at a time (you'll never look at that wet spot the same way again...lol)

DrZiggy

[Spoomonkey 421]

For as much as swingers complain about vanilla people bashing their lifestyle, they, in turn, pass moral judgment on anything considered "cheating" ans though swinging has given them the right to become moral compasses.

 

Wow, doc...

 

Let's work with a bit of an analogy. You and I are playing a game - any game - and we have discussed and agreed upon the rules. If, during the game, I knowingly play outside of the rules as a way to work the outcome of the game to my advantage - that is cheating. Plain and simple...

 

Who gets hurt? Why, you do, because I have interfered with the outcome of the game and stolen the reward you should get for your efforts within the established boundaries.

 

The "rules" for swinging and monogamy are different, however they are agreed upon by the participants and everyone plays within the established boundaries of those rules. When they do step outside of the lines, that is "cheating".

 

Keeping things on the "field of play" is what makes monogamy or swinging successful. And a healthy swinging couple is far more comparable to a monogamous couple than a couple where one or both spouses are "stepping out".

 

Comparing swinging to cheating and implying that they are "morally" equivalent is stupid.

 

I hope that the survey you are doing will give you a better view of what swinging is all about. Good luck.

 

Spoomonkey

[drziggy 89]

I did not compare swinging to cheating or sugest that they are the same. My point was that, quite often, people pass judgment based on their concept of what is, or isn't, accepted behaviour in society. It is based on "personal perception".ust as people outside swinging perceived swingers as deviant, swingers, on the other hand, pass equal judgment on people that they perceive as breaking the rules society such as "cheaters". This judgment is based on an overall understanding of the prevalent rules of society which enforced moral standards based on what is, or isn't, acceptable behaviours. Thus, swingers are as "moralistic" as other individuals in society.

Also, cheating cannot be compared to a competitive game between two individuals where the outcome (or winning) can be influence by the "bending" of the rules by either individual. Competition is a context in which there is always a "winner" or a "loser". No such thing exists in a relationship

Most often people that "cheat" are not in competition with their mates (the "cheated") but rather seek alternative methods to fulfill their needs which aren't being met by their particular situation (relationship, etc.). It is not a competition but rather a functional strategy to cope with a particular situation.One could always say that "if your relationship is not working for you, get the hell out..." which is simplistic and reflects a "either or" kind of mentality. Nothing is ever that clear cut.

I agree that swinging is based on an understanding between two individuals regarding their acceptance of no-sexual monogamy in their relationship. To suggest that same applies to monogamous relationships is again simplistic and ill-informed. Monogamy is not a natural state for humans, one of the reasons why swinging is a viable alternative to "cheating". However, cheating is a natural progression of the need of humans for sexual variety and stimulation.

My point is that the judgment of particular behaviours which we deem morally "unacceptable" should be mediated by the context in which the behaviour occurs.

Cheaters are no more, or less, morally deviant than anyone else.

[ncmd_couple 597]

Modern human society is pretty screwed up when it comes to sexual issues. I’m adopted, and my adopted parents fed me so much BS about sex while I was growing up. And they knowingly lied to me about it. Fortunately, I met my natural mother and father as an adult and learned more about myself by learning who they are than I learned in the 25 years prior to meeting them.

 

The bottom line as far as I’m concerned is that cheating happens because the people in relationships lie to themselves and each other. They perpetuate the lies that they were taught as children in spite of them knowing that they do so. They do so for a wide variety of reasons, security for children, insecurity about who they are, fear of societal repercussions, the list is way too long to write here.

 

What sets true swingers apart from the vanilla world is that we (as best we can) have come to grips with who we are. And we are open and honest with our partners about who we are. And they are open and honest about who they are. Together as a couple we work together to live our lives so that both of us are as happy as possible. We acknowledge our differences and desires and help each other celebrate our differences and to achieve those desires. This is not easy to maintain, but anything worthwhile takes work!

 

People who cheat, whether they are nominally swingers or not, are still lying to themselves and their partner.

 

S

[ShellyM 0]

Wow, doc...

 

Let's work with a bit of an analogy. You and I are playing a game - any game - and we have discussed and agreed upon the rules. If, during the game, I knowingly play outside of the rules as a way to work the outcome of the game to my advantage - that is cheating. Plain and simple...

 

Who gets hurt? Why, you do, because I have interfered with the outcome of the game and stolen the reward you should get for your efforts within the established boundaries.

 

The "rules" for swinging and monogamy are different, however they are agreed upon by the participants and everyone plays within the established boundaries of those rules. When they do step outside of the lines, that is "cheating".

 

Keeping things on the "field of play" is what makes monogamy or swinging successful. And a healthy swinging couple is far more comparable to a monogamous couple than a couple where one or both spouses are "stepping out".

 

Comparing swinging to cheating and implying that they are "morally" equivalent is stupid.

 

I hope that the survey you are doing will give you a better view of what swinging is all about. Good luck.

 

Spoomonkey

 

Agreed. As the daughter of a father who was a cheater I know what cheating does...its not just "enjoy". It may be just "enjoy" for the cheater, but the devastation it does to the cheaters family (and yes, the spouse is usually aware that someone is jumping fence) AND to the person they are cheating with when they are unaware that their s/o is actually married is horrific. So although it might be the naughty and forbidden factor for the cheater, for everyone else it pretty much SUCKS. This is what I tell the married men looking to cheat; they think hey, this chick just wants to fuck. For some reason people tend to think that swingers have no morals and we are just reckless nymphomaniacs there for the picking....WRONG! We are actually educated, intelligent and usually MORE picky than the general population. Hell, I have Mr. Right. You are Mr. Right Now and I have the luxury of filtering through very carefully. I had one married man inform me of his wife the day before we were to meet; it was "oh by the way, I'm married. I hope you don't have a problem with that." Ummm, yeah I do actually. I informed him that I am not the type of woman to be fucking him in a hotel room while his wife and babies are at home wondering why its taking Daddy so long to get home from Wal-Mart. So good Doctor, I feel that you are right in that the thrill of the chase is inviting to alot. But it is in no way swinging. Please do not confuse swinging with cheating; as a matter of fact, we are the opposite. We are so honest and trusting of our partners that we have opened up something that typically is just between us to be shared for our enhancement.

[Tia Vampire 167]

Well said ncmd couple. As my SO and I explore this side of us, we have found out it is so much easier to have your cake and it too. We don't hide anything from each. Which make communication so much easier. I love that man to death. We have each other's back for whatever and I really think becoming a swinger has made me anyway (the female) a better person.

I have noticed even on the job i'm more of a open person and people seem to be able to open up to me more. Especially in the job field that i'm in, it really helps. It feel so good not feeling like you have to hide in shame, what you say, or what you do when we are out together. We respect each other's openess, wants, and we really exept each other the way we are. It feel so damn good that I can't hardly stand it. It's better than the most intense orgasm:D

[Spoomonkey 421]

Also, cheating cannot be compared to a competitive game between two individuals where the outcome (or winning) can be influence by the "bending" of the rules by either individual. Competition is a context in which there is always a "winner" or a "loser".

 

You certainly missed the point of the analogy.

 

I was not discussing the competition, but the expectation of playing by the rules.

 

And I disagree with your assessment. Almost every time a person does something that would hurt another, there are better options available.

 

Spoomonkey

[drziggy 89]

You have every right to disagree. However, my assessment is based not on an emotional response but rather on a psychological evaluation of behaviour overall.

Every behaviour as a motivational force (or motivator) that drives it. Cheating is, by in large, a unapproved behaviour in our society, hence most people have a strong "emotional " reaction to it as an observer. However, there is always power to every situation that determines the behaviour of the actors within that situation. If someone procures sexual (and sometimes emotional) satisfaction elsewhere, that, in of itself, is not destructive. However, to the observer, the behaviour is judged based on accepted societal rules and expectations.

Cheating does not by itself bring about a disruption in the family relations (or relationship). It may be a catalyst that precipitates the end of a bad relationship once the other partner find outs and reacts negatively to it. However, there are many instances in which the cheating has forced the couple to communicate about existing problems within the relationship (sexual or otherwise). It is not the cheating per se that is the culprit; the observer, or those directly affect by it, may perceived it a such but that is an evaluation based on personal prejudice towards the behaviour (remember, it is not sanctioned by society...). Most often, cheating can be beneficial to the relationship if it allows the "cheater" to fulfill some of his/hers needs which aren't being met by the relationship. Jealousy has emerged in societies that value possessiveness (and possessions) as a means to discourage cheating. However, just because those artificial rules exist doesn't mean that they will be followed by everyone or that they should be judged as "wrong" or unacceptable.

Hence, when I mentioned the fact that we weren't talking about a game with winners and losers I meant that in a literal sense. This not about a game in which the rules determine the winners (or losers). Rather, it is about making decisions that allow an individual to minimize a sense of frustration.

In the American lexicon an expression has emerged that reflects just how far frustration can be a catalyst for deadly behaviour; that expression is: "going postal".

Too often we tend to view behaviours from what we have learned to be acceptable, or not. However, that is only our opinion (which most often is based on the "sour grapes" of past negative experiences).

Swinging has evolved to maximize the experience of the couple that has chosen to embark in "cheating" together (although we don't call cheating in that instance). The only difference in swinging behaviour is the knowledge, and agreement, of both partners to the sexual activities of each other.

Concluding, I still maintain that cheating can be beneficial to a relationship so long as the behaviour remains the sole knowledge of the person engaging in it.

I have been engaged in Marital and Sexual Therapy for many, many years, and have seen where the practical application of the themes I discussed herein have practical application and where they have no relevance.

One last thought....what we think, feel and judge is always just based on our perception, and it is always biased.

[Spoomonkey 421]

Swinging has evolved to maximize the experience of the couple that has chosen to embark in "cheating" together (although we don't call cheating in that instance).

 

Of course we do not call it "cheating" - because what we are doing stays within the boundaries that we as a couple have set. Our actions are agreed upon, discussed and pursued together, as a couple. It is not symptom of a bigger problem or the catalyst for healthy discussion - it IS the result of having a healthy, honest relationship in the first place.

 

So to call it "cheating" would be about as accurate as calling a bus a bicycle...

 

You have every right to disagree.

 

Excellent! Then we shall get along fine.

 

If you really believe that "Most often, cheating can be beneficial to the relationship if it allows the "cheater" to fulfill some of his/hers needs which aren't being met by the relationship" then there really is no point in discussing the issue. No sense asking you to see it from the perspective of someone who would rather tackle issues in their lives head on...

 

Again, I do hope that your survey - as potentially flawed as it may be - does at least give you the insight that many swingers value marital health.

 

Spoomonkey

[ShellyM 0]

drziggy I respectfully say that its just wrong to think that cheating is ever beneficial. I have a girlfriend who found out her husband was cheating by the doctor looking at her and asking her if she was having any extra marital affairs....she confusedly looked up at him and said no, thank you very much...to which he answered with "well you had better have a talk with your husband because my dear you have chlamydia." Again, your take is that ignorance is bliss. Nope, not okay. I'm telling you, women especially usually know. By the time he reveals the affair the wife usually knows who she is, where she works, how many kids she has, etc. The cheater is usually only fooling themself. And again, I'm the child of a cheater; I saw my mother and can only imagine what it was like wondering who your husband may be boinking...and then what he possibly may bring home.

So I respectfully disagree. Ignorance may be indeed bliss; but there is no such thing as a free lunch.

[drziggy 89]

I'm quite puzzled that you keep insisting that the survey may be potentially flawed...as though you hope it should be...and also that I do not understand swingers...or the rationale behind the behaviour. I have probably been swinging for longer than most in here, and have studied the subject for just as long....

I have been studying human behaviour, and sexual behaviour in particular for over twenty years, that should give me some insight into human nature and behavioural motivation.

[TNT 1,155]

One last thought....what we think, feel and judge is always just based on our perception, and it is always biased.

 

Although I am of the mind set that "If you're not happy, get out"...I do understand what you are talking about. Even though we will not knowingly help someone cheat, it is something that Ted and I can turn a blind eye to, even though we really don't agree with it...we "try" not to judge although unsuccessfully at times.

 

We have a vanilla couple we have been friends with for close to 20 years. Having spent a lot of time with them I saw how much he loved his family, he was a good husband and father...what most would consider just a down right good man. About 7 years ago I found out he had been cheating on his wife. It upset me tremendously...here was a man I never would have thought in a million years would have done anything like that.

 

Ted and I talked about it a LOT...I just couldn't understand it. With him and Ted being close, he was privy to a lot of their relationship that I was not (well, until Ted told me). Strangely I came to understand why he had cheated and although I still didn't agree with his reasons, I did understand them. I also realized that he hadn't changed, he had been cheating on her a number of years during our friendship. What had changed was my perception of him.

 

What I had to realize was that I was looking at him the same way someone would look at Ted and I if they found out we were swingers...we would not have changed...just their perception of us would have.

 

Teresa

[drziggy 89]

ShellyM my dear, you keep mentioning anecdotal evidence of how bad cheating is...that is a biased perspective which should not imply that all cheating takes place within the contexts that you have mentioned (or that all cheating is based on an emotional motivation). Yes, some relationships are affected by particular behaviours which bring about confrontation (which in most cases is a good thing...) and feelings of abandon. Those are usually situations where one spouse has become totally dependent on the other, lack self-esteem and self-confidence.

I think your personal bias (the particular situation with your father, which, it appears, you never completely were able to resolved...) may somehow influence your understanding of the behaviour as a negative in all instances. Feeling abandoned by your father has been "connected" with the fact that he cheated and hence destroyed the family unit. Not knowing every aspect of the situation I venture to say that there were many other factors that contributed to an unhappy relationship, cheating part of an array of other problems. I do feel for you, no child should ever feel abandoned by their parents. However, you have now been conditioned into associating any type of behaviour perceived as cheating with your own situation (or those of others that reinforce your point of view).

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[drziggy 89]

Thank you for understanding what I have been talking about. It is not merely a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with cheating, but rather understand it in the context in which it happens. One is always free to unable it, or turn a blind eye as you suggested, or not get involved at all. However, to consider all cheaters in the same light is naive to say the least.

thanks for the input.

[ShellyM 0]

ShellyM my dear, you keep mentioning anecdotal evidence of how bad cheating is...that is a biased perspective which should not imply that all cheating takes place within the contexts that you have mentioned (or that all cheating is based on an emotional motivation). Yes, some relationships are affected by particular behaviours which bring about confrontation (which in most cases is a good thing...) and feelings of abandon. Those are usually situations where one spouse has become totally dependent on the other, lack self-esteem and self-confidence.

I think your personal bias (the particular situation with your father, which, it appears, you never completely were able to resolved...) may somehow influence your understanding of the behaviour as a negative in all instances. Feeling abandoned by your father has been "connected" with the fact that he cheated and hence destroyed the family unit. Not knowing every aspect of the situation I venture to say that there were many other factors that contributed to an unhappy relationship, cheating part of an array of other problems. I do feel for you, no child should ever feel abandoned by their parents. However, you have now been conditioned into associating any type of behaviour perceived as cheating with your own situation (or those of others that reinforce your point of view).

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

True that lol and you have the right to your opinion on cheating. And I am not scarred, my Father and I came to terms years ago. However, you seem to imply that swinging and cheating run within the same vein and they simply do not. Now, can swinging turn into cheating? Perhaps I suppose....Jay tells me "I prefer that you do not play with that gentleman"..and I do anyways. That is cheating. Jay has not given his consent. And I do stand by the account that you feel like it is "ignorance is bliss". I think I know what you mean: that a man has sex with another woman and brings the passion back home to the wife. However, I still disagree in that lying and deception just are not good for a marriage. Anyways, I agree that we simply will not agree lol.

[TNT 1,155]

It is not merely a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with cheating, but rather understand it in the context in which it happens.

 

I think that might be a key point.

 

Is a married man/woman who has a drunken one night stand just as guilty as a married man/woman who carries on an affair that last weeks, months or years?

 

Both cases would be considered cheating but, the degrees are different.

 

I'm really trying to understand different things here...even though we as swingers do not think what we do is cheating..we're not hiding anything from our SO, lying or causing hurt...society as a whole looks at it (swinging) as being the same.

 

Did that make any sense?

 

Teresa

[fun4Ds 1,098]

I'm really trying to understand different things here...even though we as swingers do not think what we do is cheating..we're not hiding anything from our SO, lying or causing hurt...society as a whole looks at it (swinging) as being the same.

 

Did that make any sense?

 

:rolleyes:to me it does TNT, but im thinking its because like you guys, we also have been together a very long time.

 

we have seen many failed marriages/relationships in our lifetime. very few have not had a cheating aspect at one degree or another.we have seen not only family members, but also close friends as well. we have seen everything from reconciliation (very few) to suicide more than once. enough ya might say, to wright a book on the subject, from our viewpoint. i wont debate wright or wrong with Dr Ziggy but i do have my opinions, from real lifes experience.

 

 

 

Teresa

[ShellyM 0]

I don't know in regards to is a one night stand on the same par as a man who has a mistress for 2 years. Both are damaging in their own ways I suppose. I think the one night stand is less damaging in truth; the 2 year affair pretty much destroys everything, to include the mistress that has been believing that the married person would leave their spouse for the last year and a half usually. So I see everyone's point. However, my only thing is that cheating in the traditional sense of sneaking behind your spouse's back and swinging are not viewed as the same. They are not related in any way other than sex is involved. And sometimes people have "affairs" without sex. But thats another thread lol.

[Spoomonkey 421]

It is not merely a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with cheating, but rather understand it in the context in which it happens.

 

I think that might be a key point.

 

And it is a good point. In fact, it is a point that I agree with and have no problem with. Cheating is not always the chestnut - sometimes there are issues in a relationship that are the cause of cheating...

 

And cheating can force those issues to the surface to either be corrected or to help a couple move on as singles...

 

I get that...

 

Had that been the point, I'd have likely agreed and moved on. However, that has not been his point as evidenced by this tripe:

 

It could be put on par with the individual taking half the couple's money and blowing on gambling without the consent or knowledge of the other person. If the money is replaced and there is not harm done to the finances of the couple, it really doesn't matter....

 

Fairly simplistic view, doc. Let me ask you, what would be the sexual and marital equivalent of "putting the money back" after an affair?

 

And again...

 

So long as no one gets hurt in the process, I say "Enjoy it!"

 

Excellent advice. Since you have extensive experience in this area, would you be willing to amend this to read "since no one has been hurt yet"? And would you give this advice in a counseling session? If not - why not? What would you tell the spouse of a cheater exactly; "no harm, no foul"?

 

And yet again...

 

Swinging has evolved to maximize the experience of the couple that has chosen to embark in "cheating" together (although we don't call cheating in that instance). The only difference in swinging behaviour is the knowledge, and agreement, of both partners to the sexual activities of each other. (emphasis mine)

 

Personally, I think this shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the reasons couples choose to swing. As evidenced many times on this board - and within this fairly interesting study - couples get into swinging from he point of a strong marriage, not from a weak one.

 

To say that the ONLY difference between swinging and cheating is consent tells me that you really have no idea what makes swingers tick.

 

So this...

 

I have been studying human behaviour, and sexual behaviour in particular for over twenty years, that should give me some insight into human nature and behavioural motivation.

 

...means very little to me, honestly.

 

I would think that such extensive and honest study would give you insight. So why you seem to have such a simplistic, common view of swinging is beyond me.

 

Spoomonkey

[TNT 1,155]

we have seen many failed marriages/relationships in our lifetime. very few have not had a cheating aspect at one degree or another.we have seen not only family members, but also close friends as well.

 

Yep...us too. Which is why I keep questioning things in this thread. I really do believe that cheating is not an answer but...I have seen incidents where I understood why it happened and couldn't blame the cheater. Which in turn has caused all these damn internal questions popping into my head. How can you believe something is wrong (cheating) yet, understand why it happened and not blame the cheater?

 

However, my only thing is that cheating in the traditional sense of sneaking behind your spouse's back and swinging are not viewed as the same. They are not related in any way other than sex is involved.

 

We (swingers) don't view it as the same but, there are those that do. Most people view sex as the definition of cheating..with our without consent from you SO...If sex (outside a relationship) was the only definition of what constituted cheating (which I don't believe it is BTW) then, we are all cheaters.

 

Cheating is not always the chestnut - sometimes there are issues in a relationship that are the cause of cheating...

 

And cheating can force those issues to the surface to either be corrected or to help a couple move on as singles...

 

Agree.

 

Now, I've got another question for you...if cheating brought a problem to the surface and it was corrected then wouldn't that mean that cheating helped the relationship?

 

I'm really not trying to be contrary here...like I said above, all these questions are running around in my mind and what I once thought was a black and white issue, I'm now seeing as gray...and that is confusing the hell out of me. Also, Ted's away with work so I've got no one here to talk to and debate things with, so ya'll get to answer my questions and deal with my babbling

 

 

Teresa

[cplnuswing 4,713]

 

Now, I've got another question for you...if cheating brought a problem to the surface and it was corrected then wouldn't that mean that cheating helped the relationship?

 

Teresa

 

Yes and no based on conversations with a close friend who went through this very scenario, and they did salvage their relationship.

 

The cheating did bring the problem to the surface in a way that caused this person to take a long, hard, and painful look at himself, decided he didn't like what he saw, and as a result significantly changed his outlook on life. But, although he acknowledges how his actions contributed to her eventual cheating, the emotional scars for both will always remain and although their relationship is much better in some ways, it has been irrevocably altered also.

 

He looks at it not that the cheating helped the relationship directly, but that the cheating helped him. The byproduct of that is they salvaged the relationship, but as he says "I was going to be a different person, whether in the end it was with her or with someone else." The hurdle he had to get over in his mind is that although she "caused" him to become a better person, should she benefit (ie. staying together which she wanted to do) from him becoming a better person since she is the one that did the biggest wrong?

 

In my book, it is wrong. The self-assured, confident individual I'd known for years instantly transformed into an absolute six-month train wreck after one bombshell phone call. We truly feared for his well being for a while. Anything that does that kind of harm to another person is wrong, although in some cases there may be mitigating circumstances that determine the degree of wrongness (kinda like manslaughter vs. murder in the legal system).

[Spoomonkey 421]

Now, I've got another question for you...if cheating brought a problem to the surface and it was corrected then wouldn't that mean that cheating helped the relationship?

 

Of course.

 

And I think that can be an awesome thing. Whatever path a couple gets to "healthy" is a good one. I'll not deny that. Mrs Spoo and I are very happy, never fight, work together, are together just about 24/7 - but that isn't the only way to "do" marriage.

 

In fact, our relationship would be a recipe for disaster for many.

 

If a couple has some rough road to look back on, there is nothing wrong with that at all. Whatever that rough road is. Going over that rough road can be an amazing testimony of their strength and resolve as a couple.

 

However, the argument being put forward is that cheating is basically a "no harm, no foul" type of deal. And that it is exactly like swinging with the only difference being consent.

 

Here is why that is bunk...

 

What led you guys into swinging? I have met you guys and everything I have ever seen about you guys is "strong". You two have a relationship to be envied and aspired to. I am guessing that swinging wasn't the symptom of "bigger problems" - like we might agree that cheating often is... Swinging doesn't "fix" your marriage, nor does it lead to a conversation about what is wrong. You don't need marital counseling because you do it...

 

Cheating is the sum of other issues in a marriage that is causing distance between two spouses. Swinging - on the other hand - is often a small part of a healthy, communicative, strong marriage. Yes?

 

I can't for the life of me understand how someone who has studied the motivations for swinging for twenty years can come to the conclusion that these two things are the same - except for consent. As you can imagine - as a guy with a very strong marriage - I reject the idea that I am swinging for the same reasons that I would otherwise be cheating. It is B.S. frankly...

 

Sorry - I drifted from your question again...

 

I understand that cheating can be something that leads to a relational catharsis. However, that does not make it a good thing - anymore than a person drinking himself out of a job and a family could be considered a good thing, even if he does bounce back. Wouldn't it have been better for the man who "hit rock bottom" to admit he has a drinking problem earlier? Get help sooner? Fix the issue before he reaches the point where he has no choice?

 

Spoomonkey

[TNT 1,155]

Of course.

 

 

What led you guys into swinging? I have met you guys and everything I have ever seen about you guys is "strong". You two have a relationship to be envied and aspired to. I am guessing that swinging wasn't the symptom of "bigger problems" -

 

No, not at all...pretty much like you and Mrs. Spoo...that whole partners in crime analogy . We always (and still do) enjoyed doing things together, swinging was another thing we could do together.

 

Sorry - I drifted from your question again...

 

No problem...I'm really enjoying this

 

I'm wondering if, because of the relationship that you and I have with our spouse and us not being able to fathom a circumstance where we'd cheat on them, is it hard for us to imagine any type of reason for cheating that would be justified?

 

Like I said in my post describing our vanilla friends...I understood his reason for doing what he did...I didn't agree with it but, understood it. Even with understanding it my gut thought was still he should have gotten out of the relationship.

 

See...I keep spinning in circles here and I'm really starting to get dizzy.

 

 

Teresa

[Spoomonkey 421]

I understood his reason for doing what he did...I didn't agree with it but, understood it. Even with understanding it my gut thought was still he should have gotten out of the relationship.

 

I have a friend who is in the middle of an affair. I understand - and I know that he is in a tough spot. I feel for him. I couldn't imagine living in a marriage like his. But still, he is really just prolonging the problems.

 

At some point, the band aid is going to have to come off - and when it does, it is going to hurt. The longer he leaves it on, the more it is going to hurt.

 

I don't think that cheating is ever right - mostly because it means a couple isn't talking. Now, I think a lot of "arrangements" can be made within a marriage which are perfectly okay. Another guy I know is married to a woman who has severe arthritis to the point where sex is almost impossible. She has told him to go else where for it. Interestingly, he refuses. Absolutely refuses because it hurts him to even think about. So, instead, he is pretty much celibate. I really respect that - but think that if he did, it would be okay, since it is something they would have agreed on.

 

But that isn't cheating - it is amending the rules

 

THAT would be far more like swinging than cheating would, IMO.

 

Spoomonkey

[VegasLee 1,486]

I know it's fucked up and destructive,

 

I personally do not feel the need to do anything fucked up and destructive in my life, that is why I vote and elect people to do that for me.

[willyoats 324]

There seems to be some doubt about whether cheating (an affair without the SO's knowledge) can be beneficial. Clearly, it can be destructive: marriages break up and families are destroyed. However, it can also can be helpful, as in our case. Early in our marriage, we had a lousy sex life. I was inhibited and she was frustrated. She had an affair with a real romantic stud. She found out that her failure to reach orgasm was not my fault. She also found out that , except for sex, I had all of the qualities that she wanted in a life partner.

 

Then when she told me about it, I was really turned on to her and was all over her all of the time. The shrink says it resolved the madonna-whore complex. Whatever the psychological underpinnings, which I still don't completely understand, it freed me to approach my wife with a new outlook on our sex life.

 

So, between her not blaming me for her problems and me not having the hangups, we have had great sex ourselves and with others in the swinging community for most of the past 40 years.

[Swing*8701 887]

Ed here-- Over the years I've see a fair share of men and women cheat on their marriages. While, initially, the sex is fun, things never end well. This is because to have the sex, you have to lie, deceive and become the type of person you don't want to be. This results in further behavior and actions that diminish you and burden those around you. In short, in every case, the person said it wasn't worth it.

 

With healthy swinging couples, the desire for sex is up front and no one is being lied to. In fact lack of communication and honesty is usually the only thing that causes problems and not the additional fun sex expressed within a healthy relationship.

 

Susan has been completely open with me from the first nanosecond I asked her out. Her sexual expression is something I celebrate as opposed to be worried or burdened by. And, for me, sex with friends has been incredibly liberating. Yet, none of it would have been possible if there wasn't honesty and communication. If there wasn't, I could have never tried Swinging and never could say,"Watching Susan fuck is a rockin' experience ".

 

----------

On the one night stand cheat versus long term cheat. I had a colleague who did something stupid while traveling on business and had a one nighter. He'd never done anything like that before and would never again. He should have just left it as a mistake and moved on. Instead, he needed to unburden himself and told his wife. What a jerk. She was fine without this information and was severely hurt. They got counseling and remain married 15 years after the event. But, there was a 'catch'. He always has to let her know where he is and what he's doing when she's not around. So, because he felt the need to tell her about one stupid night, he's chained to that mistake for life. His wife is also chained, she just doesn't realize it. So, from my perspective, a one night mistake should be left in the past or it easily stays with you a lifetime.

[ShellyM 0]

Ed, I think you are right in a way. As I said before, when younger my Dad was a notorious lady's man. They have now been married over 40 (yes, 40 lol) years. He hasn't cheated probably in over 20 years at least...and every time they get in a fight he is reminded of it. I guess you can forgive but you never forget.

[sweet_tna 680]

I understand that cheating can be something that leads to a relational catharsis. However, that does not make it a good thing - anymore than a person drinking himself out of a job and a family could be considered a good thing, even if he does bounce back. Wouldn't it have been better for the man who "hit rock bottom" to admit he has a drinking problem earlier? Get help sooner? Fix the issue before he reaches the point where he has no choice?

 

Amen and Hallelujah!

[ShellyM 0]

There seems to be some doubt about whether cheating (an affair without the SO's knowledge) can be beneficial. Clearly, it can be destructive: marriages break up and families are destroyed. However, it can also can be helpful, as in our case. Early in our marriage, we had a lousy sex life. I was inhibited and she was frustrated. She had an affair with a real romantic stud. She found out that her failure to reach orgasm was not my fault. She also found out that , except for sex, I had all of the qualities that she wanted in a life partner.

 

Then when she told me about it, I was really turned on to her and was all over her all of the time. The shrink says it resolved the madonna-whore complex. Whatever the psychological underpinnings, which I still don't completely understand, it freed me to approach my wife with a new outlook on our sex life.

 

So, between her not blaming me for her problems and me not having the hangups, we have had great sex ourselves and with others in the swinging community for most of the past 40 years.

 

You know, y'all have really made me think. I have been thinking about this issue alot lately. We have a couple that are our friends. Due to whatever reason (she refuses to acknowledge that there is a problem) she will NOT have sex with her husband. Won't do it. There is always an excuse; she is tired or sick or on her period, or pms.......and I mean they have had sex like literally twice in the last 8 weeks. The hubby is a good man who has tried everything he can think of from taking her on a romantic getaway to Cabo to lingerie to this and that...they fortunately have the financial ability for him to really treat her well. She will not have sex. He is at his wit's end and honestly I have recommended that they get marital counseling. Now I'm not coming down on my sister...she is a teacher and I know she is busy and stressed and tired. They are a BEAUTIFUL couple both inside and out, and Jay and I are pulling for them. But he is at his wit's end. Sex in a marriage is not just physical, its the emotional connection. So I've been thinking about this thread. Normally yes, I would say cheating is WRONG WRONG WRONG. But what does a spouse do in this situation? He has talked to her until he is blue in the face; offered to go with her to the ob/gyn even. He loves her with all of his heart. But the more he tries to make love to her the more she rejects him and its like a knife in his heart. In this situation do you think that perhaps another woman would help him? I'm truly asking because I don't know. I would NEVER tell him this because in truth I'm not a marital counselor and simply don't have the qualifications to meddle in such things as a marriage like that. But damn, I don't know that I would blame Jay for having an affair in a case like that. I don't know, I've just been thinking about them and this thread alot.

[purpletiger 25]

Willyoats - There are exceptions to almost every rule. I believe your's is one of them and one men like to read on the story board - some to fantasize, some to justify. I think think it's great for you:D

 

Shelly,

 

I'm not a marital counselor and simply don't have the qualifications to meddle in such things as a marriage either, but, I don't think cheating is his answer unless he wants to ruin his marriage. I think your sister would never understand the reasons and would be devastated to the point she would try to ruin his life whether or they stayed married.

 

You know your sister better than us, so you would be a better judge of her reaction if she ever found out, but, usually this isn't taken as a wake up call, but rather a cheating, deceitful spouse, that honestly they can't see any reason why he (or she) would cheat on them.

 

But, I do feel sorry for him. I don't have a solution, just a word of caution to the one you were thinking. I hate the thought of counseling myself (seems most counselors are as messed up as their clients) but will she even consider that?