What is it with couples who require condoms for penetration but not for oral?

[lcjtsd 20]

This is the wife writing. I am venting and ranting so please no flaming, just honest answers.

 

As many of you know from our previous posts, we don't do what we refer to as "Double Standard" sex. Our definition of this is doing oral unprotected but insisting on condoms for intercourse.

 

In the past four years, we have had an ad on a few sites and have went to a few clubs, all in the hopes of meeting other couples. In all this time, we finally met one (1) couple (about 6 months ago) who was from out of town and we had a great time. Unfortunately, they are from out of town and it was a one time thing for us.

 

Why is it that so many couples have no problem with taking the risk of catching something by doing oral unprotected but insist on covering up for the rest? Come on, here I am with a man I just met, putting his uncovered dick in my mouth, taking the risk of catching something, in my mouth, and you want to use a condom to put it in my coochie? Or how about my hubby with your wife. You want him to lick your bare coochie, taking the risk of catching something but then tell him to cover up to put it in? WTF!!!!

 

The reason for all this is that we give up. We're tired of all this work, answering emails from people who EMAIL US and don't take the time to actually read our profile. (Yes, we did state that we don't like condoms and are looking for others who feel the same).

 

If you're that afraid of catching something, they do have lifesize dolls for both men and women. (We saw them on the "Real Sex" series). This way, you know that you are doing 100% safe sex!

 

I'm sorry but, to me, putting a mans dick in my mouth is a lot more personal than having it in my coochie.

 

I think everyone here will agree that YES, you can catch a STD in your mouth and throat from oral sex. The risk may or may not be less, however the risk is still there.

 

So ladies, why the paranoia about no condom for intercourse after you have had a strange mans dick in your mouth unprotected? (Other than the pregnancy issue). I say ladies here specifically as I think most men would jump at the opportunity to do it uncovered. LOL

 

Ok, that's my vent. Once again, please no flaming. I look forward to reading your honest answers.

 

Mrs. LCJTSD

(Hubby feels the same way too)

[Alura 2,774]

Actually, there is a lot less risk of catching a disease with oral sex than with vaginal sex. The mouth and stomach are filled with powerful chemicals intended to protect the body from invading organisms. The AIDS virus, in particular, is very fragile and cannot survive stomach acid. The vagina does not have such protection. If it did, those chemicals would kill sperm, too, and we'd no longer have people.

 

Still, in our opinion, we can be much safer when having sex with other couples by choosing those couples carefully. If you don't have sex with someone who has an STD, you won't get an STD. The more partners you have, the more likely you are to get an STD.

 

That's why we like long-term friendships with our play partners and have no interest in going to clubs.

 

The negative part is that in twenty-five years we've only played with five couples. We'll take quality over quantity anytime.

[intuition897 2,179]

Like Alura, Mr. intuition and I have had relatively few partners, as we prefer quality over quantity, too. We seek out partners who are equally paranoid about STD's; it usually means they're "clean" and want to stay that way.

 

As a former dental assistant, I'd like to elaborate on Al's statement about the chances of catching an STD orally. He's right: the healthy human mouth is actually armed with a few mechanisms that protect it from foreign potentially harmful "bugs". Digestion actually begins in the mouth with an enzyme called salivary amylase which begins to break substances down in the mouth. Depending on the hardiness of the organism, this may or may not kill some or all of it. Also present in saliva is a protein called mucin, which encapsulates loose bacteria, rendering it harmless until it can be swallowed and destroyed in the stomach. There are, of course, many types of bacteria that can and do get past the mouth's line of defense, but it's not the most effective way to catch something.

 

However...

 

I was only talking about a very healthy mouth. If your gums bleed when you floss or brush, you're at risk. Any of you who have heart disease, diabetes, heart valve disorders, have had rheumatic fever, etc. are usually required to take a prophylactic antibiotic before you get your dental cleaning, because more often than not, the cleaning does compromise the integrity of the gum tissue, even if your gums are otherwise healthy. For people who have these conditions, among others, they are at risk if the bacteria in the mouth make their way into the blood stream. If you have gingivitis to any degree, your gums are compromised all the time, leaving a wide open pathway into your bloodstream. Now, how large a risk this is, I don't know. I don't have the numbers for that. But it is a conceivable risk.

 

So there are now two reasons why swingers should have the healthiest mouths of anyone:

1) because it helps prevent the contraction and spread of disease, and

2) because it's a helluva lot easier to get a date if your mouth doesn't smell like something crawled in between your remaining teeth and died.

 

If you DO have gingivitis, and don't plan on using condoms/dental dams, do NOT brush or floss just before a date as this will damage the delicate tissue even more. Instead, just use a soft cloth and a bit of toothpaste to gently polish the crowns of your teeth, avoiding the gums. Or use one of those pre-packaged slip-on finger brushes (I think Colgate or Crest makes them). Also chewing gum promotes the production of saliva (helps wash away and neutralize bacteria). Another good thing is a good antibacterial mouthwash like Listerine, before and after oral contact. Just be careful to not swish TOO soon before giving oral; Listerine likely isn't too comfortable on the genitals! Although I've heard good things about minty stuff like Scope...

[lcjtsd 20]

Mr. Alura, I agree. One must choose couples carefully. We look for other couples around our age, kids the same age etc. The HIV thing, well, we feel that the couples who would fit what we are looking for would make this a non-issue. Call us crazy on this one but the odds are in our favor.

 

Also, like you, we prefer quality over quantity. I think it would be great to find one or two couples to get together with on a somewhat regular basis. We're not weekend warriors. We get the itch to play about every 6-8 months and are tested after each encounter.

 

Thanks for your reply and hopefully there will be more.

[lcjtsd 20]

Intuition897, thank you for your reply. I agree that the risk is less with oral, your post shows that there is still a risk. Come on, how many people have a "very healthy" mouth? Not many. Yes, we too prefer good oral hygiene, but how many can claim to here "very healthy" teeth and gums?

 

I apologize for getting graphic here but it seems that people keep referring to the semen when talking about the risk. Is it not true that in men most STD's are in the urethra? So a woman doing oral who says "Keep that cum away from me!" is under a false idea of safe as she has already sucked any potential STD right into her mouth? (Kinda takes all the fun out of the experience when you think about it.)

 

With men, the same potential exists with doing unprotected oral on a woman. He is licking the exact spot where the STD resides.

 

Ladies, is the attitude that it's OK to get and STD in your mouth but not in your coochie?

 

Yes, We want to know. We have been talking about giving up on this whole thing due to this issue.

 

Mrs. LCJTSD

[The Fuse 1,012]

intuition897, thanks for the great information! I am now newly inspired to floss more regularly!

[lott 38]

icjtsd, I agree with everything you're stating it's just that you have to remember A LOT of people don't have the discipline to look past the enjoyment of having of sex to see what can happen if everything doesn't go according to what they planned. They tend to see only the good and think that the bad can't happen to them or if it does happen they can handle it.

 

This seems to be exceptionally true for older people who are so used to having sex with each other that they tend to forget that other people might not have the same views as them even though they say they do and may take chances once and a while that can harm them and bring it back to you.

 

REMEMBER IT ONLY TAKES ONE TIME FOR SOMETHING TO HAPPEN THAT CAN ALTER YOUR LIFE OR AT LEAST MAKE IT HARDER THAN IT ALREADY IS SO BEING PREPARED CAN KEEP YOUR LIFE FROM GETTING WORSE WHILE AT THE SAME TIME MAKE IT BETTER BECAUSE YOU CAN ENJOY WHAT YOU'RE DOING WITHOUT WORRYING.

[VegasLee 1,486]

Ok, you might take this as a flame but to be honest, I am not sure what your asking for here. You already know that many will do oral without condoms but insist on them for anything else.

 

I also don't understand since you are well aware that many only play that way. It is their choice and theirs to make.

 

You say you might give this all up because of the choices others make? Why would you do that? Why not just ask people right up front that you desire to play with what their rules are and they are acceptable to you then play with them, if not you move on to the next ones. Why get upset over rules that other people have set up for theirself?

 

The main thought of the lifestyle is to do what works for you as long as it does not hurt others and not being forced on others. You have that choice as others do. There is many people out there that will play without condoms.

 

We feel online is a waste of time. To many posers and people that "online swingers". It is their fantasy but they are never going to show up and never going to do it. That is why we go where the swingers are, to swingers clubs. You can find people there that will fit right into what your looking for. Maybe not every night but the chances are much better then playing online.

 

Good luck to you and hope you don't quit because of the choices of others.

[Chicup 41]

We play bareback with one couple we have known for years, who we trust and who trusts us, and are our 'best' friends beyond swinging.

 

All others we use condoms on for sex, and yes oral is without.

 

This is the level of risk we are willing to take, and it seems to be the swinger norm. If this doesn't fit your tastes, why be mad at everyone else when it is your desires which are not fitting the norm?

 

We don't like sex with condoms nearly as much as sex without, but it would never be a deal breaker for us to use them. NOT using them for sex would be far more of a deal breaker.

[Spoomonkey 421]

lcjtsd said:

I agree that the risk is less with oral

 

There you go...

 

People make the choices they make for themselves; not for you. It is not our way of being selfish or rude - it is our way of being as safe as we can (or at least feeling as safe as we can). When you have rules that are outside of the norm, you limit yourself. That is a decision you have to make. But it is unrealistic to expect the community of swingers as a whole to adjust their comfort zones to accommodate you.

[lcjtsd 20]

Hi VegasLee! Good to hear from you. We still haven't made it to the Red Rooster yet. We live way NW, almost to the turnoff to Mt. Charleston. Don't get to the other side of town that much.

 

To answer your question on why we would give up is that it's too much work and seems like a waste of time. From other postings on this board, there seems to be quite a few who believe the way we do but where are they??? We're not upset at rules per se (even though some seem to have too many LOL) it's just that we can't seem to find the ones who have the same as ours (just have fun!). I guess the online thing is a bunch of BS. We stated right in our ad what our preference is, we would get emails from other couples, and when we replied we would usually get a response from the wife stating that "We always use condoms". WTF Don't they actually read the profiles?

 

We have decided that clubs are what we will start using to find others so we haven't given up completely, just our approach will be different. It's a shame though. We don't have a lot of time with our own business and kids to get out as often as we would like. The online sites seemed like a prefect solution.

 

Spoomonkey, you said that "it is our way of being as safe as we can (or at least feeling as safe as we can". Exactly, a "feeling" of being safe. We feel that with unprotected oral, this is a false feeling as if anyone had anything, you just caught it so what is the condom going to do? As in our previous post, is it OK to catch something in your mouth but not on your genitals?

 

With the issue of what we refer to as Double Standard sex, well, I guess we just don't understand it and never will. This issue really leaves us perplexed.

[Spoomonkey 421]

lcjtsd said:

With the issue of what we refer to as Double Standard sex, well, I guess we just don't understand it and never will. This issue really leaves us perplexed.

 

It is hardly a double standard. I mean - if it is more likely that you will catch an STD through genital contact than through oral, then each risk must be considered individually. You have said yourself that one is riskier than the other.

 

Maybe you could call it standard and a half?

 

The bottom line is - some folks lessen the risk - some folks shrug off the risk. And we all only have to play with folks with whom we are comfortable.

[intuition897 2,179]

If you want to get right down to brass tacks, condoms are not exactly a surefire way to keep from contracting a disease. A condom on a penis only means that you won't be catching anything from the penis itself, or seminal fluid. Same with dental dams; they only cover a certain percentage of skin. That leaves the whole rest of your partner's genital region to worry about. Genital warts, herpes, syphilis...these don't require contact with JUST penises and vaginas, although they are the highest risk body parts.

 

I'd suggest the best way to avoid contracting anything is to choose quality over quantity and choose your partners very carefully. As well as using condoms.

[JandT_Elkhart 76]

Matter of fact, and I'm no expert but I have researched on just HOW HARD it is to contact an STD thru oral....

 

And I betcha the chances of catching an STD thru unprotected oral...

is about the same of catching an STD thru PROTECTED intercourse.

 

I've been doing some searching to see what the estimated percentage risk is for each "technique" but cannot find anything.

 

I do know that 4 of 1000 condoms (statistically) LEAK. That's about 1/2 of 1 percent.

 

Assuming that MOST people do NOT use condoms correctly. And let's all be honest... how many of you get "coochie juice" on the base of your penis or on your groin during a session??

 

Bodily fluids WILL be transmitted PERIOD.

 

The idea is to lessen the risk... and the risk of unprotected oral is SO SMALL that the tradeoff isn't worth it, at least IMO.

[lcjtsd 20]

Intuition897,

 

You just verified our point. Unprotected oral exposes you to the risk. Also, how about if you place your finger in the other woman's vagina and then grab your penis, or place that finger near your wife's vagina, etc. It's a good thing you put that condom on, right? You still have to go to the doctor and get a shot or take a pill. What difference is there between catching it in your mouth and throat over the genitals?

 

One point I will disagree on...the best, and only way, to avoid catching anything at all is to not play at all or only play with yourself .

 

I feel this is a great discussion and hope others will join in.

[lcjtsd 20]

JandT_Elkhart said:

Bodily fluids WILL be transmitted PERIOD.

 

The idea is to lessen the risk... and the risk of unprotected oral is SO SMALL that the trade-off isn't worth it, at least IMO.

 

Is it? I remember seeing an episode of "ER" and they did a story about a teenage girl who had an STD in her throat. Her answer was that "Oral sex isn't sex". When a TV show does an episode like this, it is usually to educate people on what can and can't happen. The premise of this story was to tell people that oral sex IS sex and that STD can be transmitted this way. So is the risk "So Small"? I think it happens more frequently than people would like to admit.

 

Could this be a case of a "Modern Myth" that's been passed around so much that we actually believe it? Hmmmm

[Chicup 41]

One must also note that for those of us whose women are still of child-bearing age, even on birth control, we like an extra layer of protection there.

 

Duh.

 

We know the risk of sex, we have limits on how far we take those risks. The primary risk is HIV, as it's the only one that kills you directly (untreated syphilis aside), and that requires seminal fluid, and apparently contact with torn mucosa. That alone is a good reason for condoms.

[lcjtsd 20]

Chicup said:

One must also note that for those of us whose women are still of child bearing age, even on BC, we like an extra layer of protection there.

 

If you look back at our post, we did make the exception of pregnancy.

 

The HIV issue? Well, is it an issue with the married couples in their mid-thirties and on who have kids, etc.? Personally, if one or both of us were HIV+, the last thing we would be doing is swinging. I think most "swingers" are of the same mind.

 

So, we feel that the odds of playing with another couple who would be HIV+ is far less than the odds of one who had any other STD. Are we incorrect?

 

Maybe there is someone who has researched this and can give the percentages.

[BorisNatasha 63]

I think the false assumption you are making there is that your sex partners are making the same effort to screen people as you are. Suppose the people you played with last night had a MFM last week with a guy they had just met, who happened to pick up HIV from HIS girlfriend a month earlier... hopefully you see where I'm going. This is how it gets transmitted - a person is contagious before the tests can detect the antibodies. So by not wearing a condom for intercourse you are exposing yourself to that risk, no matter how small that risk might be. Period. In contrast, there was a study in June 2002 that found out of 19,000 instances of oral sex between 2 partners where 1 was known to have HIV, there was not a single transmission of the virus to the partner. So it is provably safer, although not 100% safe as this study would seem to indicate.

 

I read somewhere on this site that there is only one instance of a person getting HIV through swinging, and that person was infected by a male who was either bisexual or an IV drug user, can't remember which. The details are fuzzy but I'm sure somebody can chime in here with the specifics and a source.

 

The other thing I have noticed is that you seem to see risk as a black and white issue, i.e. you either accept all the risk or none of it. You say that by having unprotected oral you have 'exposed yourself to the risk' so why bother with a condom for intercourse. Exposing yourself to some risk by having unprotected oral sex does not mean you have inevitably contracted something, and does not mean you must automatically accept the significantly higher risk of unprotected vaginal intercourse. As Spoo pointed out, the risks are different for the different types of sexual activity, and must be evaluated separately. The risk isn't always obvious, either. In fact there are some diseases such as HSV2 that are harder to contract via unprotected oral than by PROTECTED vaginal intercourse, in this case simply because the virus is not able to infect the majority of the adult population in that area of their body.

 

Hope you don't think I am flaming you in any way... just adding my input.

[lcjtsd 20]

Boris, no I don't take your post as flaming. Yes, we do see this as a black and white area with no gray in between. From the postings on this site we see that couples involved in swinging are more apt to be tested for STD's more frequently, thus the risk of catching anything is lower. We feel that the number of couples who have been married 15+ years with kids who are HIV+ is very low and then when you factor the percentage of these couples who are swingers, the odds of running into HIV is very, very low. I may be wrong.

 

Maybe this just isn't for us. Neither one of us like sex with condoms on. We don't see how sex with a paranoid couple can be fun. PLEASE, we're not saying that swingers who insist on condoms are paranoid! But you know there are some who, if the condom broke, would absolutely freak out as their life is going to end tomorrow. We would not want to have to deal with that issue. How can you have a good time if all you're thinking about is whether it is going to break or not?

 

We would rather be with another couple who were as comfortable having sex with us as we would be with them. In four years we have found only one. From the other postings on this site, you would think there would be more. Obviously not.

 

We realize that everyone determines their own level of risk. We don't think that the risk is that great. Others are of the attitude that everyone has something and most are somewhere in between.

 

That's all for now.

[Alura 2,774]

Quote

 

Lcjtsd wrote:

 

We would rather be with another couple who were as comfortable having sex with us as we would be with them. In four years we have found only one. From the other postings on this site, you would think there would be more. Obviously not.

 

 

That's fairly consistent with our record of five couples in twenty-five years, Lcjtsd. We probably could have found a lot more had we been willing to change our parameters of swinging. The limited experiences surely were fun, though!

 

[VanHlebar 187]

Well as others have said already, I think that for MrsVan and I we accept a different level of risk, and oral sex without protection is one that we are willing to accept. That being said, we do always use protection during intercourse. I have had a vasectomy, but I still wear a condom and MrsVan will always use a condom as she can still get pregnant.

 

I think for us, this is not a Black and White issue, but I do agree with you that the risk of getting an STD might be lower in the swinging community than normal, but why risk it? Our bigger concern is pregnancy, and using your logic, if we are going to accept a small percentage of risk here by using a condom and still having intercourse, well then we should just skip the condom go bare and accept what happens. That type of thought process seem illogical to me at best.

 

As some above already indicated, just because a partner that you choose seems to be safe does not indicate they have been so careful in there selection. It all comes down to what each person is willing to accept in terms of risk. I would never want to impose my risk tolerance onto any other person, not even my wife. As Vegas Lee said, if you don't like the rules that a particular couple has, then just move on without playing with that couple, why stop all together.

[lcjtsd 20]

VanHlebar, Go back and look at our posts. We do make the exception for pregnancy concerns. My wife has her tubes tied so that is not an issue with us.

 

You also reiterated what VegasLee said;

Quote

"if you don't like the rules that a particular couple has, then just move on without playing with that couple".

Therein lies the problem. We have found one couple in FOUR YEARS! The reason? The other couple insists on condoms so they don't catch anything. The confusion? They do oral unprotected! Once again, this makes no sense to us.

 

VegasLee also stated that there are quite a few couples who play without condoms. Where the heck are they? Do we simply have a case of "Sour Grapes"? Maybe. We would like to play more often. (Who wouldn't LOL)

 

So, is it OK to catch an STD in your mouth and throat but not on your privates?

[VanHlebar 187]

lcjtsd said:

VanHlebar, Go back and look at our posts. We do make the exception for pregnancy concerns. My wife has her tubes tied so that is not an issue with us.

 

I did read all the posts, wasn't really saying anything towards you as a couple, just giving our reasons for the use. I apologize if that came out wrong in the post.

 

lcjtsd said:

So, is it OK to catch an STD in your mouth and throat but not on your privates?

 

Hell no it isn't OK to catch an STD in my mouth or throat or on my privates. I personally am willing to take that level of risk because it is what I am comfortable with. Since I am fixed, I would play without a condom, but I know that most of my partners would not allow this and my wife really would not be pleased with it either AND I do understand the increased risk of STDs in unprotected sex. Those factors make the decision for me simple.

 

I understand your frustration in not finding partners based on your rules, but it would seem to me that changing your rules to fit the norm here would be easier than getting the vast majority to change their. Not that that is what I am advocating at all, so please don't read that last statement as a flame or statement that you must change. I really don't feel anyone should change their rules to fit any other couple period. Bottom line is this is supposed to be fun, if you aren't having fun then stop, which I think your first post indicated also. I truly wish you guys the best of luck and hope that you are able to find others that are willing to accept the same rules that you set.

[lcjtsd 20]

VanHlebar, We're not trying to make anyone fit our rules, we are just curious and trying to understand this rule that couples have. Maybe I just have a thick skull but it just doesn't make sense to me. Others have mentioned the HIV scare. OK. But I feel that the odds of HIV in the swinging community are so remote to almost be a non-issue. If anyone has info to the contrary, please let me know. We feel you are more likely to meet someone who has the more common STD's, most of which can be caught via oral sex. Hence, why bother with the condom?

 

Yes, this is supposed to be fun for all. Everyone agrees on that. As I said in a previous post, I would hate to be in a situation where the condom broke and the other couple freaked out. I don't see that kind of drama as fun. How can we avoid this drama? By finding other like-minded couples who also do not use condoms. From many of the other post on this site dealing with Cream Pies, seconds, etc, there seem to be quite a few who also enjoy this. It just seems that they live everywhere else but Las Vegas .

[magnum 78]

lcjtsd said:

This is the wife writing. I am venting and ranting so please no flaming, just honest answers.

 

As many of you know from our previous posts, we don't do what we refer to as "Double Standard" sex. Our definition of this is doing oral unprotected but insisting on condoms for intercourse.

 

In the past four years, we have had an ad on a few sites and have went to a few clubs, all in the hopes of meeting other couples. In all this time, we finally met one (1) couple (about 6 months ago) who was from out of town and we had a great time. Unfortunately, they are from out of town and it was a one time thing for us.

 

Why is it that so many couples have no problem with taking the risk of catching something by doing oral unprotected but insist on covering up for the rest? Come on, here I am with a man I just met, putting his uncovered dick in my mouth, taking the risk of catching something, in my mouth, and you want to use a condom to put it in my coochie? Or how about my hubby with your wife. You want him to lick your bare coochie, taking the risk of catching something but then tell him to cover up to put it in? WTF!!!!

 

The reason for all this is that we give up. We're tired of all this work, answering emails from people who EMAIL US and don't take the time to actually read our profile. (Yes, we did state that we don't like condoms and are looking for others who feel the same).

 

If you're that afraid of catching something, they do have life-size dolls for both men and women. (We saw them on the "Real Sex" series). This way, you know that you are doing 100% safe sex!

 

I'm sorry but, to me, putting a man's dick in my mouth is a lot more personal than having it in my coochie.

 

I think everyone here will agree that YES, you can catch a STD in your mouth and throat from oral sex. The risk may or may not be less, however the risk is still there.

 

So ladies, why the paranoia about no condom for intercourse after you have had a strange man's dick in your mouth unprotected? (Other than the pregnancy issue). I say ladies here specifically as I think most men would jump at the opportunity to do it uncovered. LOL

 

Ok, that's my vent. Once again, please no flaming. I look forward to reading your honest answers.

 

Mrs. LCJTSD

(Hubby feels the same way too)

 

Good point...I have been playing with a couple "friends" for 4 plus years or so and we started out with condoms but stopped after about a year. "I have been tested and all is good-clean-negative." I/we pull out and like to cum on hear face so no pregnancy worries.

 

I have recently meet another couple and we always use condoms for sex and yes she sucks my dick and others without condoms. I have only played with this couple twice and have no problem with using condoms.

 

It will be interesting to hear the other replies.

[VanHlebar 187]

magnum said:

Good point...I have been playing with a couple "friends" for 4 plus years or so and we started out with condoms but stopped after about a year. "I have been tested and all is good-clean-negative." I/we pull out and like to cum on hear face so no pregnancy worries.

 

 

NO worries... this is how both of my children were conceived before I was even 18 years old... I thought I had no worries because I pulled out and deposited elsewhere... Sure it took us four years to end up with two kids... and I know I should have learned after the first one... but nope sure didn't

[lcjtsd 20]

Magnum,

 

You didn't state whether the women were on any type of birth control or not. I think it would help clarify.

[Wildthingplus 47]

Regarding STD's: People, please do your homework. Much of the so-called info out there is nothing but a scare-monger's tactics. Very strange, but so much of it isn't the whole truth. Search the internet, read the medical journals, and you'll get more truthful info. We've been swinging for 8 years and haven't caught a thing -- not because we're lucky, but because we educated ourselves with the truth. Don't let anyone scare you into giving up.

[lcjtsd 20]

Wildthingplus,

 

You say that you have been swinging for 8 years and haven't caught anything. Could you please elaborate on this. Do you use condoms, don't use them, prefer not to use them? Use them for one thing and not another?

[Chicup 41]

Regarding STD's: People, please do your homework. Much of the so-called info out there is nothing but a scare-monger's tactics. Very strange, but so much of it isn't the whole truth. Search the internet, read the medical journals, and you'll get more truthful info. We've been swinging for 8 years and haven't caught a thing -- not because we're lucky, but because we educated ourselves with the truth. Don't let anyone scare you into giving up.

 

We've been swinging 6 years and haven't caught anything either.

 

Obviously STD's are just a giant scam

 

While obviously there is a lot of hype in things like STD's, that doesn't mean they are not out there. We won't be giving up our condoms anytime soon.

[intuition897 2,179]

Most complicated thing we've contracted is a yeast infection (incompatible body pH's I guess). Like Chicup, we're not giving up our condoms any time soon.

 

If eliminating risk is a couple's priority, don't swing. Period. Otherwise, there will always be some level of risk. The more instances barrier methods are used in, the lower the risk. But sexual contact with anyone other than your own partner DOES increase the risk. Some people don't consider oral to be a high risk activity; others (like lcjtsd) consider it to be high risk. Vive la difference.

[lcjtsd 20]

intuition897 said:

Some people don't consider oral to be a high risk activity; others (like lcjtsd) consider it to be high risk. Vive la difference.

 

We believe that swingers, as a group, are more apt to get tested more often than other groups and thus less likely to have any STD. What we are asking is why would a couple do oral unprotected and then use a condom for intercourse? As we stated in previous posts, should anyone have anything, you have already sucked it or licked it into your mouth (sorry for being so graphic) and, this being the case, what is the condom going to do to protect you? You have already caught the STD!

 

If you like using condoms, great. But to say that you insist on using a condom to stay STD free while you are doing unprotected oral does not make any sense to us. Sorry, but we think this is a BS excuse. Flame us all you want for that statement but "Double Standard" sex does not make any sense.

[Islanders 15]

I'm confused as well by the idea that people are willing to have unprotected oral sex, but insist on having protected sex when engaging in intercourse. STD's breed in moist places like the mouth and genitals. I feel that if you trust the couple you are swinging with enough to engage in unprotected oral sex than you might as well engage in unprotected sex for intercourse, as well (unless of course you are a woman who is using condoms as a form of birth control).

 

My husband and I are new to this scene, and are beginning to understand your frustration of finding playmates that want the same things you want. I think it's like many of you have stated earlier "it's the quality not the quantity" when trying to find couples to swing with. I'm discovering too, it takes a lot of time and patience trying to find the right couple or woman to swing with, especially when your parents like us with a busy schedule.

 

Good luck LCJTSD in your search for the right couple.

[lcjtsd 20]

Islanders,

 

Thank you for your reply. Yes, we agree that it is quality over quantity. We would love to find another couple (or two) that we could get together with on a somewhat regular basis. With the online ads, there are so many posers and wannabes that it's not worth the effort. We too have kids and own our own business so we don't have a lot of time to go out and meet people in a swing type get together.

 

This issue does leave us completely perplexed. We're just trying to understand the issue. It makes it kind of frustrating also when you are Mr. & Mrs. Average, both straight and all the ads are looking for a bi-girl (which most will never find) or Hot, Fit and Athletic.

 

Good luck in your search. We have met one couple back in November who were visiting Las Vegas and we had a great time. They were just like us, same age group, kids the same age, married the same length of time, etc. So there are people out there. It may take some time to find them but they are there.

[Spoomonkey 421]

lcjtsd said:

Sorry, but we think this is a BS excuse.

 

You call it a BS excuse - but at the same time admit (as above) that oral contact poses less risk than genital...

 

Who's throwing around the BS here?

 

If using a condom for intercourse lessens the chance for an STD - then a couple's desire to use them is not BS. Just because you aren't getting laid as much as you would like, please don't try to tell us all we're doing something wrong.

[lcjtsd 20]

Spoomonkey,

 

OK, Yes, I'll admit that it may pose less risk. I think you'll agree that any risk is still a risk. On the other hand, I'm still curious as to whether or not a couple involved in swinging is less likely to have any type of STD due to this group, in general, getting tested more often than others. I believe this to be the case.

[lcjtsd 20]

I've been trying to find the ad I read the other day on SLS. It was by a couple looking for a guy to play with them. In the ad they stated that if the guy was STD fee, recently tested and could prove it, that they might let him cum on the girls face. This got me wondering, they most likely do oral unprotected (as most on here do), so is their fear of STD's due to the false assumption that the danger item is the semen? Not realizing that, in men, STD's reside in the penis itself?

 

You see, by stating that "they might let him cum on her face", their fear is the semen. So, should they do oral unprotected, and the guy does have an STD, is insisting on a condom giving this couple a false illusion of safe? Do they believe that the STD risk is only with the semen? Has this false illusion of semen being the only thing to worry about been passed around so much that many couples believe that semen is the cause of STD's?

 

So, I will stand by my belief that to do oral unprotected and insist on condoms for intercourse "to prevent STD's" is based mainly on false beliefs on how STD's are spread.

 

Spoomonkey, I'm not saying that you're doing anything wrong. If using condoms helps you, and anyone else, feel safer, then by all means use them. You understand that STD's can be spread through oral. How many people don't know this?

[good times 991]

Spoomonkey,

 

OK, Yes, I'll admit that it may pose less risk. I think you'll agree that any risk is still a risk. On the other hand, I'm still curious as to whether or not a couple involved in swinging is less likely to have any type of STD due to this group, in general, getting tested more often than others. I believe this to be the case.

I don't think it has anything to do with how often we, as individuals, get tested but has more to do with the reality that we, as a group, are just not usually members of any high risk groups for having STD's. When we first started swinging one of our main concerns was STD's. I did extensive research on STD's on the internet and came to some interesting conclusions.

 

Starting with the biggest worry AIDS, it turns out that for ourselves, who don't play with singles or drug users, never do anal, and don't have any conditions that enhance the transmission of AIDS like Syphilis or herpes. Our risk of contracting Aids through heterosexual Vaginal sex is a quite a bit less than being struck by lightning on the way to the club entrance from the car. Even if we had sex with someone who had Aids, it is unlikely that we would contract it through heterosexual sex. So based on my studies of the available materials AIDS is a non-issue for us.

 

Then we considered things like herpes, genital warts, vaginal infections, etc. Turns out condoms are not considered very effective at preventing the spread of these as you can transfer them with your hand or any number of other ways.

 

As far as we are concerned, the above do not warrant the use of condoms and in fact, it seems to me that using condoms for the above is just a false sense of security.

 

Then their are the curable diseases like Syphilis which condoms have proven more effective against than the above. Our feeling then was that because of the effectiveness of available treatments these types of diseases are so rare now days as to be a non-issue also.

 

So our conclusion is that if we really want to play with someone who insists on condoms, we will use condoms, but we prefer not to as we just aren't convinced by the hype that they are even remotely advantageous for the types of activities we engage in and the demographic of the people we play with in the lifestyle.

[lcjtsd 20]

I think it would help everyone here if we clarified our position and situation.

 

We started playing with others about 4-5 years ago. It all started when the Mrs. told me of a guy who was constantly being suggestive about what he would like to do. After talking about it, she decided that she would ask him if he were serious and, if yes, have fun with him. Well, he was serious and they had a great time together. Eventually, all three of us would get together and we had a great time. Alas, he ended up getting married and this fun ended.

 

This is when we found AFF and SLS and placed ads on both of these sites. Now, before we did anything with anyone else, we were responsible and went and got tested to make sure that we didn't have anything. Ended up everything was fine.

 

As everyone knows, finding a single guy is a heck of a lot easier than finding a couple. So we ended up being contacted by a guy here in Vegas who is in the Air Force stationed at Nellis. He seemed really nice so we decided to meet. We drove about 45 minutes and met him at a club close to Nellis. We ended up talking for about an hour and we were all getting along great. Please note, that at this time our ad did not state a preference to not using condoms. (I like seconds, what can I say). So when the discussion came around to sex, he informed us that he always uses condoms but oral without is OK with him. Well, since we had spent almost two hours already, we said that this would be fine.

 

Needless to say, we had a great time. Now, being the good, responsible swingers that we are, two weeks later we went and got tested for STD's. Guess what! Yes, we had Chlamydia! Now I just don't understand where we could have got it from. I mean, he did use a condom. This is supposed to prevent thing like this from happening, right? WRONG!!! Was the unprotected oral sex responsible for us catching this from him? Who knows. We do know that he was the one we caught it from and that the condom sure as heck didn't stop us from getting it.

 

After long discussion on this, we have come to the conclusion that should we meet anyone and they insist on condoms for intercourse but not for oral, we politely say No Thank You. Why, because they most likely have something they don't want us to catch and they don't believe that it can be transmitted through oral. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, not going to happen. If you do unprotected oral, use any reason you like for your preference on condoms for intercourse except to keep from catching an STD. We don't buy it.

 

This is our story and we're sticking to it.

[magnum 78]

good times said:

I don't think it has anything to do with how often we, as individuals, get tested but has more to do with the reality that we, as a group, are just not usually members of any high risk groups for having STD's. When we first started swinging one of our main concerns was STD's. I did extensive research on STD's on the internet and came to some interesting conclusions.

 

Starting with the biggest worry AIDS, it turns out that for ourselves, who don't play with singles or drug users, never do anal, and don't have any conditions that enhance the transmission of AIDS like Syphilis or herpes. Our risk of contracting Aids through heterosexual Vaginal sex is a quite a bit less than being struck by lightning on the way to the club entrance from the car. Even if we had sex with someone who had Aids, it is unlikely that we would contract it through heterosexual sex. So based on my studies of the available materials AIDS is a non-issue for us.

 

Then we considered things like herpes, genital warts, vaginal infections, etc. Turns out condoms are not considered very effective at preventing the spread of these as you can transfer them with your hand or any number of other ways.

 

As far as we are concerned, the above do not warrant the use of condoms and in fact, it seems to me that using condoms for the above is just a false sense of security.

 

Then their are the curable diseases like Syphilis which condoms have proven more effective against than the above. Our feeling then was that because of the effectiveness of available treatments these types of diseases are so rare now days as to be a non-issue also.

 

So our conclusion is that if we really want to play with someone who insists on condoms, we will use condoms, but we prefer not to as we just aren't convinced by the hype that they are even remotely advantageous for the types of activities we engage in and the demographic of the people we play with in the lifestyle.

 

Interesting, well put...Being a single male in the life style, I tend to er on the side of caution and use condoms per request of one couple I play with. I do not play with many couples (2) or single ladies for that matter "difficult to meet a single woman in the lifestyle or not".

[RW1F 15]

LC, Think of it this way........

 

Sometimes if I'm running a little late to work or to a meeting I will drive 80-90 MPH on the freeway. I consider that an acceptable risk.

 

However, no matter how late I am or how important the meeting is I never drive 120 MPH. I consider that an unacceptable risk.

 

How fast do you drive?

[lcjtsd 20]

RW1F,

 

If you want to use them, fine. If you read our post where we explained our story you will see that we did do unprotected oral and condoms for intercourse and got bit in the ass for it. All we're saying is that if you do unprotected oral, you're only fooling yourself if you think the condoms are going to "protect you". I know there are those of you who will say that you have been swinging for 10+years, 20+ years, whatever and say that "We have never caught anything". I say that it's more likely that the people you played with didn't have anything in the first place. If they did, you would have got it from the unprotected oral.

 

I guess I could relate this to when I am driving. Although my wife is an excellent driver, I HAVE TO drive whenever we go anyplace together. I cannot be the passenger and have her drive. I call this my "Illusion of being in control". This is the same as those who do oral unprotected and use condoms for intercourse. It is your "Illusion of being safe". Yes, I understand this feeling, this illusion, very well. Does this mean that the feeling is justified? No. Can I get into an accident just as easily as my wife? Yes. It's just an illusion of being in control or being safe.

 

So if doing Double Standard sex makes you "feel" safer, go ahead and continue. But don't expect my wife to do unprotected oral on you. All you're telling us is that you have something you don't believe can be spread via oral sex.

 

Once again, we did it that way and got bit.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I'm actually surprised you've had that hard of a time finding other couples who don't use condoms, I see them everywhere. Or is it that you are being extremely picky and have another set of expectations regarding their play since you don't require condoms.

 

What I've seen in regards to swingers who regularly don't use condoms are two types of swingers....

 

1. (for some reason more prevalent in certain areas of the country - especially FL) Club Swingers who never use condoms and pretty much screw anything that walks.

 

2. Swingers looking for LTR with another couple, figuring that if they are exclusive with another couple LT that it reduces the risk and the need for condoms.

 

Personally, I'd prefer to avoid both types, the only LTR commitment I want is with my partner (if I have one), and I don't really want to go screwing someone who screws just anyone without a condom.

 

That said, have I swung without condoms? Yes. Would I again? Yes, it all depends on the situation and who is involved. Would I at a club with someone I just met? Hell, no.

 

I realize I didn't answer your question as to the double standard, and no I don't use condoms for oral sex. Never Have, never will. The risk is a lot lower for oral sex, even with a stranger and I'm willing to take that amount of risk.

 

We each have to choose our level of risk and our level of comfort. For each of us that will be slightly different. The circumstances vary from person to person for what risk they will accept.

[lcjtsd 20]

WOW! Hi Julie!

 

Due to the kids (we have 4) and our business, we don't have a lot of time to go out and meet people face-to-face. That's why we thought the online ads would be a great way to find other like-minded couples. It didn't work out that way. It seems that everyone is looking for the bi-woman or the hot, fit, athletic type. Sorry, my wife is straight and we're Mr & Mrs Average. Also, not wanting to lead anyone on, we also state in our profile out preference.

 

We did have couples email us and when we replied and re-stated our preference, we either never heard from them again or received a polite "No Thank You". The reason? They always use condoms as they only do "safe" sex. We did ask them if they do oral unprotected and the few answers we did we receive, they said that they did.

 

This is why we had to vent. It's just so frustrating. I know the way we contracted chlamydia was when my wife was doing oral on both of us, switching back and forth between us two guys. So what was the purpose of the condom?

 

I can think of a lot of scenarios with two couples where STD's can be spread and using condoms would not do anything to stop this. We feel that the people who classify themselves a "swingers" are the safest people to have sex with. Oh well.

 

I guess our option now is to take VegasLee's advice and actually go out and meet people face-to-face at a club type setting and find people this way. Once again, we don't have a lot of time so we may only get the opportunity to play once a year.

 

To answer your question as to are we being too picky, no. While we do have our preference on looks, etc., we would be happy to meet most couples at this point, just get out of the house!

 

Thanks for posting Julie.

[BorisNatasha 63]

lcjtsd said:

I say that it's more likely that the people you played with didn't have anything in the first place. If they did, you would have got it from the unprotected oral.

 

This is the flaw in your logic that I was trying to point out earlier. I guess a better way to get my point across is to say that exposure does not equal transmission. No illness in the world has a 100% transmission rate. And if the transmission rate is greatly reduced for oral vs vaginal intercourse, that is where the risk/reward decision comes into play for people. Just pulling numbers out of my ass for example's sake - if I have a 5% chance to catch something from oral but a 80% chance to catch if with vaginal intercourse, it's not too much of a stretch to say I'll get away scot-free with oral sex most of the time but I'd be a complete idiot to not wear a condom.

 

But I think this horse has been beaten to death. Seems like the condom issue is almost as bad as religion - nobody on either side is going to convince anyone of anything.

[Spoomonkey 421]

BorisNatasha said:

Seems like the condom issue is almost as bad as religion - nobody on either side is going to convince anyone of anything.

 

The problem with this thread is really that the question is somewhat accusatory toward anyone with a differing opinion (which in this case is the majority of readers/posters). That's not exactly a hidden approach, when one considers that the title is "We just have to vent."

 

It is obviously an issue that causes some dismay for the original posters.

 

But the problem with debate is that some feel a need to weight the discussion with biased words - in this case "double standard sex". The term, by the original poster's admission, does not accurately describe the issue at all. A double standard implies that you are taking two equal things and applying different criterion. Oral sex does present less risk - the degree of which is up for debate - than genital contact. Therefore, they are not equal - and different standards would be unavoidable. In fact, if you applied the same approach, you would still not have "equal standards" since you are talking about two different risks.

 

So - while the term "double standard" is intended to cloud the issue and perhaps be inflammatory - it is quite easy to see that it does not fit within the context of the debate. It is intended to make some feel hypocritical or "uncritical" of their choices, thus forcing them to make a bad decision based on prejudicing.

 

You see this approach often in political debate.

 

As outlined above, some have a very clear, rational reason for approaching oral sex and genital penetration differently. This is obviously NOT a double standard, but an assessment of risk based on plenty of readily available information. Does risk exist? Yes. Will any measure completely eliminate risk? No. Does this mean one should simply accept 100% of the risk with no consideration of lessening that risk? That is an individual decision that has much more to do with the comfort level of the couple than it does risks involved.

 

Think of it this way. Two guys ride bikes. One wears a helmet - one chooses not to. Both face risks. The guy who doesn't wear a helmet may think the guy who does is fooling himself because the difference in risk is marginal at best. The guy who does wear a helmet may think the other guy is foolish because he takes absolutely no precautions.

 

Each has the right to make their decision - and each may have a valid case. As long as you are comfortable with the amount of risk you take - live and let live.

 

It is not an issue of "double standards" but an issue of comfort zones and risk tolerance. If you choose to ride without a helmet, your riding group may be a bit smaller - but at least you ride with the folks you want to ride with.

[lcjtsd 20]

Spoomonkey,

 

I used the term "Double Standard" as I couldn't think of any other way to describe it. That's all.

 

I have added a poll hoping to find out how much the people on this board feel that condom use reduces their risk. After two days there have only been three other votes. Either this is an issue the folks here don't want to talk about or they just don't like us. Oh well.

 

Maybe we'll leave here, too, and go elsewhere.

[Spoomonkey 421]

lcjtsd said:

Either this is an issue the folks here don't want to talk about or they just don't like us.

 

I doubt it is either. Like I said - I think it is the presentation of the issue that limits useful discussion. The poll is probably going to be slow simply because everyone has discussed it here and to put a percentage on it is speculation at best for most of us.

[lcjtsd 20]

No Spoomonkey, I think the Naughties were right. We feel this forum has become cliquish, opinionated and closed minded to certain issues.

 

This issue we brought up, we feel, is an important one for all swingers. If anyone does unprotected oral, how effective is condom use in preventing STD's? We were hoping to raise awareness that there are many activities that swingers do with others that, basically, make condoms completely ineffective. Our own experience has shown that. Hence, why even bother with them? Did we go a bit overboard in our presentation? Maybe, and for that I apologize.

 

However, it seems that the people here would rather stick their heads in the sand and completely ignore the issue, (Which I feel the lack of voting in the poll illustrates). In other words, if a question or opinion comes up that goes against the majority here (which it seems that this one does) the issue is ignored by the majority, no matter how important the subject.

 

I feel that this is a darned good issue and, once again, apologize if our presentation was incorrect.

 

So I think we'll be on our way.