He said he prefers perkier tits during sex

[lindyswing 15]

Here's the scenario: A woman in an open relationship plays with a new, very good and very compatible casual sex partner outside of her primary relationship. During their first encounter, she suspected that he didn't like her tits. But then during the second time she played with him, he was paying her tits so much attention, she happily remarked, "I thought you didn't like my tits, but you've been playing with them so much, I'm beginning to think you do like them." He then says, "I generally prefer tits that are smaller and perkier, but they're skin and all skin is good skin."

 

If you were this woman, how would you feel about this guy saying this and how would you respond? What types of feelings and responses do you think would be appropriate and reasonable for the woman to have?

 

Would you think it is reasonable for this to hurt her feelings? For her to be in stunned silence? For her to need to be reassured that she is physically attractive to him in some way? That he's not just settling for her and her non-perky tits because she's willing to have sex with him? For her to need to hear that he thinks she's pretty?

 

Alternatively, would you think it is reasonable for her to think that comment was so insensitive that he doesn't deserve to have sex with her?

 

Or do you think the only mature response would be continuing with the play and regarding the comment as no big deal because she has accepted her saggy tits as one of her physical flaws?

[Lovinlife59912 17]

In my humble opinion this is what I think: I am assuming that you have a mate that loves you and everything about you thats why he married you, relish that.

 

If you are out playing, hopefully your doing it for the sexual gratification, not to fill a void in your life like self esteem. You had an inkling that this other guy may not have been attracted to a feature of yours but it sounds like it didn't detour him from what he was after, complimenting you was not what he was looking for in the situation.

 

You went fishing for compliments and didn't like the outcome but I'm sure that guy compliments his wife or girlfriend if he has one because of love for that person. Leave the complimenting and sensitivity to feelings for your spouse who loves you and everything about you including any flaws (your spouse may think they're not flaws) and leave the enjoyment of extra sexual enjoyment to the friend.

[sereneiders 263]

Loving,

 

I disagree. This is the sort of scenarios where honesty isn't welcomed, unless being COMPLETELY honest.

 

We hardly will find out mates whose features, all of them, fit our tastes, we all know other people playing with us feels the same: there are features they like from us better than others, they may even dislike one feature but there are so many other enjoyable things that we don't care.

 

This guy had to know he's with a person, that if she makes such a comment she's exposing her own body issues, it is supposed both of them are there to enjoy each other and to please each other, and taking care of each others self-confidence is something required to please each other. Not giving a shit about your partner's self-confidence tells your partner you're there only for your own pleasure.

 

Facing this question this guy has two possible attitudes: to lie or to be COMPLETELY honest. The first one is obvious "you were wrong the other day, I really like your tits", the second one would be to say the same, but ALSO to say which other features are the one that attracted him in the first place, as to reassure her self-confidence.

 

This guy was blunt and careless. He deserved her to give to him her knees to suck because "skin is skin" and he proved it'd be the same to suck the perfect model's boobs, the saggy ones, or her knees.

 

He wasn't there with a piece of meat to fuck and play with, he was there with a person who deserves her feelings to be respected, who deserves the same care his own wife deserve, OR EVEN MORE because she is NOT his wife and he doesn't know her well enough as to know in which ways his "honesty" could hurt her feelings (supposing such a blunt guy indeed knows what could hurt his own wife).

 

Indeed, this guy doesn't deserve to have sex with her... Moreover, he doesn't deserve to have sex with anyone else (nor even his wife, if he ever managed to have one), instead to jack off until learning some basic manners.

 

I hope I made my point clear.

[OttawaCuple 15]

Dito to Sereneiders.

 

Lindyswing, if it were me he said that to, there would be no third encounter.

 

MrsOttawaCuple

[LOL_OMG 130]

This guy obviously hasn't been around women much.

 

The answer to "does this make my butt look fat?" really isn't "you betcha."

 

If that were me I would have been tempted to say, "yeah, well I usually like to have sex with a guy who has a decent sized cock too...but they were all busy today."

 

Mrs

[good times 991]

She asked, if she did not want an honest answer, why did she ask in the first place?

 

I am one of those people that are sometimes accused of being overly honest. If someone asks me a question, I naturally assume they want an honest answer. In this case, I think the guy might have been a little more tactful, but I disagree that he should lie to her out of respect for her feelings, or any other reason, she did ask after all. As we see on this board all the time, if someone asks a question, their is no guarantee they are going to like the answer. In this case, he was asked and stated his preference and then attempted to convert it to a positive and let her know that he was satisfied with her nonetheless. That the way he said it sounds somewhat bad could mean nothing more than it was not interpreted the way he intended or that it just came out wrong in the heat of the moment.

 

To answer the question, I think that she should consider the way this guy treats her overall and not dwell on this one statement.

[JnCC 24]

It was a cheesy comment, and yeah, I don't see how it couldn't hurt her feelings to some extent.

 

Most guys have no idea how sensitive women are to comments about their bodies, appearance, etc...especially women over 40, or who have had children. Some guys have a habit of engaging their "mouths" before their "brains" have come up to operating speed, and as a result, they stall out in the seduction department.

 

I seriously doubt that his comment was intended to hurt you the way that it did. Is it possible that this guy is just a well-meaning oaf, with poor verbal skills?

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

lindyswing said:

...During their first encounter, she suspected that he didn't like her tits. But then during the second time she played with him, he was paying her tits so much attention, she happily remarked, "I thought you didn't like my tits, but you've been playing with them so much, I'm beginning to think you do like them."

 

All he had to say was "I'm enjoying your tits very much" and give you a wonderful smile.

 

You didn't ask him what he thought of your tits, so I think you said things just right. You let him know that you noticed how he didn't pay attention to your tits the first time and now that he was, you were liking it. He should have learned something from that. Instead, he said a stupid thing.

 

Whether you play again or not is up to you. I wouldn't drop a guy for one verbal screw up, guys tend to be good at making those.

 

Look at the bigger picture, if the play relationship has many more positives than negatives, you might be able to overlook his clumsy mistake.

[lovefest04 700]

Guys, there's a lesson here for all of us.

 

When your significant female other half is with you on a long drive and asks you if you're thirsty, and suggests that you could pull off up ahead and get a cool drink...She's thirsty or has to pee. Pull over...

 

Likewise, when a woman asks about her body, she's not looking for criticism.

 

I agree it was a rude answer and uncalled for.

 

If you haven't got something nice to say, keep quiet.

 

Should you play with him again? I don't know. Was he good? Was he respectful? Maybe he just said "1 mean thing", but otherwise is a great guy. If so, tell him, some of us men need to be awakened.

[balearsun 15]

With all due respect, I think a big deal is being made of what seems like an honest answer.

 

Someone posted earlier that guys are quite adept at sticking their foot in their mouth and, being one of those guys, I can say it is true. That, however, doesn't mean the guy in question was being rude or disrespectul, and the second encounter probably proves this point, since he was being so attentive.

 

Also, if someone doesn't want to hear a truthful answer to their question, why ask it in the first place?

 

Listen ladies, some of us males don't have the intelligence make up to play mind games, especially when interacting with you, loveliest women. When you say no, that means no, right? It doesn't mean maybe, it doesn't mean try harder. So, please give us a break. Mind reading belongs on a stage, not in the bedroom.

[lindyswing 15]

Some additional clarification of the situation--and I'll admit: I am the woman.

 

First, my primary partner and I tend more towards polyamory than strictly recreational swinging. I have an intense romantic crush on this guy, and it's ok that I feel this way. Second, I'm a feminist. These issues are both personal and political to me....I can't help but make a big deal out of it when men have narrow beauty standards.

 

The reason why I suspected that he didn't like my tits: The first time we played, I shared that I had lost 55 lbs in the last 2 years. He responded to this by telling me that he could tell because of my loose skin and then he pulled on my breast. I told him that in fact my breasts have always been this shape, but I did not let on that his comment hurt my feelings.

 

The way I actually responded during the second encounter:

 

- Stunned silence while he continued to caress me but said nothing.

 

- I then apologized to him for saying what I said--I was a little teary I admit. The reason I apologized: if I had been thinking straight, I could have predicted that he was likely to say something brutally honest that would hurt my feelings and offend my politics beyond what I could suppress, given his comment during our first play time.

 

- I specifically asked for reassurance that he is honestly attracted to me and why. He refused to answer why because he's not into giving compliments. We ended up having a long discussion in which I explained that there are men who are willing to settle for sex with women they don't actually find attractive because many more men want uncommitted sex than do women, and if we were to continue playing, I needed some reassurance that he's not just settling for me because he can't get anyone else. We continued discussing body image issues; the fact that he is a leg man, not a breast man; if he's ever in this situation in the future, whether he should try to say something more diplomatic; whether I have a healthy self-esteem; etc, etc, etc. I found it to be a respectful discussion even though we disagree and have different perpectives about many things. He finally came up with a compliment about my sexiness...and man, it was some compliment...totally genuine, totally knocked my socks off. The evening culminated in me in front of a mirror telling him all the things I love about my looks; then we fucked in front of said mirror while I went on and on about how hot I am and that he's crazy not to like my breasts. It was totally hot. I also found it rather therapeutic.

 

I just got back from spending a third incredible weekend with him. What I was trying to get feedback on in my first post is this new issue: He thinks my response during our second weekend together was unreasonable and immature. If I were a mature person I would have accepted my breasts as flaws long ago and what he said in the second encounter would be no big deal, whereas I think:

 

1) I responded very very reasonably

 

2) at the time he made the comment, it would be reasonable behavior for a woman to decide that he's too insensitive to deserve to be her sex partner [even though ultimately I did not do this]

 

3) my breasts aren't flaws and what's healthy and mature is to recognize their beauty and sexiness

 

So many of you seem to agree with me, but some of you don't...for anyone still paying attention to this thread, does the additional info change any of your minds or trigger any other thoughts?

[sereneiders 263]

She asked, if she did not want an honest answer, why did she ask in the first place?

 

I am one of those people that are sometimes accused of being overly honest. If someone asks me a question, I naturally assume they want an honest answer. In this case, I think the guy might have been a little more tactful, but I disagree that he should lie to her out of respect for her feelings, or any other reason, she did ask after all. As we see on this board all the time, if someone asks a question, their is no guarantee they are going to like the answer. In this case, he was asked and stated his preference and then attempted to convert it to a positive and let her know that he was satisfied with her nonetheless. That the way he said it sounds somewhat bad could mean nothing more than it was not interpreted the way he intended or that it just came out wrong in the heat of the moment.

 

To answer the question, I think that she should consider the way this guy treats her overall and not dwell on this one statement.

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

 

There are moments for everithing, you have to know when something that would fit otherwise should be muted. And you gave the perfect example: this board. People doesn't post here while in the middle of the action, they do it before or afterwards, when they're in the mood to take the truth.

 

If we were changing the scenario, let say, they were drinking a coffee afterwards and at that time she ask the question, just then the honest and cold hearted answer COULD fit.

 

Let's suppose you're having intercourse with a lady, she's moaning because of how you move, you dare to ask her if she likes your cock, and she chuckles and says "well... it could be thicker, but a cock is a cock anyway". I don't know you, but I bet most the guys around would loose the erection unless on Viagra (it would happen to me for sure, even with Viagra), even when anyone of us would feel ok to hear the same lady, in any other scenarios, say that they like thicker cocks, and adding something else allowing you to feel appreciated for you to have a second time.

 

I know there are people (most notoriously, guys) who wouldn't care their partners oppinion and would enjoy the fuck, as it says the expression "sex is like a pizza, either good or bad is good". Well, bad pizzas doesn't deserve to be eaten, and the same happens with bad sex: it's better to avoid it at all. Feeding people's self steem is something that makes the difference between good and bad sex, just because the main sexual organ is our brain, and good sex requires your brain to be properly amused.

 

And amusing your brain is just a game, and as often happens in games, you do "as if" a couple of things were true, wheter they're actually true or not. There is an ilusion involved that have to be feed by everyone involved, the "as if" meta-rule forbids people from reminding you in the middle of the game about the "raw truth from reality". Who doesn't understand this is a bad player, one able to spoil the fun for everyone around because of being aware of "more important things" (like honesty) than the game itself, even when outside the game everyone would agree about these "more important things".

 

As for me, when I am in bed, I WANT people to LIE TO ME. I don't want to know right there what they think about the extra pounds I have, even when I would valuate their oppinion ANOTHER TIME.

 

I am playing "as if" I were Superman, tying a towel from my neck and hanging it backwards "as if" it were able to fly because of that, making the noise of the wind with my own mouth to enhance the flying effect. I am not doing that expecting the gal next to me (who's supposed to dress as Wonder Woman) to laugh at me, nor to tell me to stop making those silly noises because I am not flying, nor how stupid I look with my towel (even when later on I may laugh at my silly noises and the picture of myself with that towell), because if she does so, then SHES NOT PLAYING, or at least we're not playing the same game. So, should she makes such a comment, I'd handle my silly towel to her, and invite her to play alone just because she doesn´t know how to play The Justice League game. When wearing my silly towell, if I ask people "how far I could go flying", I don't want them to remind me I cannot fly by telling me "well... three steps ahead before crushing your head against the floor".

 

For me, it's that simple.

[sereneiders 263]

So many of you seem to agree with me, but some of you don't...for anyone still paying attention to this thread, does the additional info change any of your minds or trigger any other thoughts?

 

Yes, it changes mine because of what I said in my first post (to either lie or to be completelly honest). If he was up to reasure your self confidence by telling you what's what he actually likes from you, along with the things he dislike, then it is ok.

 

In the other hand, I missunderstood the scenario, thinking that he made this comment right on the middle of the action, wich doesn't seems to be the case here.

 

But I stick to my toughts and my "political viewpoint" . You added information that changed the original context. At last, I think this have to do with the values your embrance the most, and that's something very personal.

 

For example, there are many things that actually make women atractive for me, altough most of them have less to do with the physical aspect and more with the whole person and her sesuality.

 

But I am aware that I could be seen by you as one of those men "who are willing to settle for sex with women they don't actually find attractive because many more men want uncommitted sex than do women", so let me tell you my perspective about this.

 

I can tell that, "ideally", I may preffer the same woman with other set of tits, an ass with certain shape, other colour of eyes and hair, but let suppose I were God for that moment as to be able to make my wishes happen to make her resemble my "ideal sex partner", what would I get from this? Would I actually be with "someone else"? Wouldn't that be a way to jack off?

 

I find challenging, fun and attratcive are these things that doesn't perfectly fit my wishes, or "ideal features", because those things are the ones that makes me be with "someone else", that makes me "do" a woman (this person, this woman) instead of "doing" my fantasized woman.

 

Certainly there are features I like that she may have, and the combination of these features I like, and these features that doesn't fit my "ideal combination", is what I believe does it to me.

 

If I were looking for the "perfect fantasized mate", I wouldn't be swinging, because this is something money could get you. What I get this way is something money wouldn't be able to buy (besides, I have no money for such a luxury ).

[sereneiders 263]

Listen ladies, some of us males don't have the intelligence make up to play mind games, especially when interacting with you, loveliest women. When you say no, that means no, right? It doesn't mean maybe, it doesn't mean try harder. So, please give us a break. Mind reading belongs on a stage, not in the bedroom.

 

Well, it's not a matter of "intelligence" (well, it's required some intelligence), just of knowledge of who are you dealing with.

 

You talk about "mind games" as if they were sneaking around setting a weird scenario where to trap you. The fact is, women are from Venus, we're from Mars, and no one can perfectly grasp what happens in each other minds.

 

From the few I understand from Venus, these "mind games" are genuine toughts and feelings women naturally have. Moreover, self steem issues are shared both by women and men, even when sometimes these issues may run trough different rails.

 

If you cannot understand the difference from the "no means no" statement and what happens here, I'd say you'll have troubles dealing with the opposite sex in any other way than yelling a "listen ladies" complain when you don't get it.

 

You don't need any mind reading skill, for now I'll give you a basic formula: keep your mouth shut, try to figure out the effect your words could have in your partner, count to ten, thing again, and just if you're SURE about the outcome, speak up your toughts. If the outcome doesn't fit your expectations anyway, don't wimp, insthead pay attention and learn.

 

It's like football (well, what you call football), you don't need mind reading skills to know where some guy will throw the pass, you just need to know the game dynamics and be aware of where are the players over the field to figure out.

 

If you care about women as much as you do about football, you will learn.

[Pepper & Drew 384]

I kinda have to agree with Goodtimes. There are things about my body that I'm self-concious about, and I would never even open up the opportunity for them to be discussed one way or the other. To me, to mention it sounds a little like fishing for compliments. You kinda put him on the spot, then when he said what came to mind first, you were upset. I don't think his intentions were to hurt. He just lacks some tact.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand why his comment may have hurt your feelings, and yes, there were more diplomatic answers that he could have said, but I always operate on a don't ask, don't tell policy when it comes to issues of weight, hair and the positioning of my nipples. I don't ask if my boobs look saggy in a tank top, and nobody tells me if they think they do.

 

Pepper

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

I see a couple of things here that I can relate to in my life experiences.........

 

The guy, just doesnt understand how women think (the one i've met anyhow) 90% + of the questions ladies ask really aren't questions at all they're statements and how us guys answer them is the path to our fate. That being said I dont think you are unreasonable or immature, a tad self conscious perhaps or touchy about certain body parts and their image, of course but that goes with the territory of a new dress size. A quick story to illustrate my point.

 

1997-1998 My wife had peaked at a weight of 210 (5'4") there were many reasons (new son, strange town, honeymoon phase ended, me always foward deployed ect..) In 1999 she decided she was uncomfortable with herself and over the next year proceeded to work down to 125-130lbs. over the next 6 years she has maintained a constant 140ish. JUST LAST WEEKEND she felf comfortable enough to buy a 2 piece (bathing suit) to wear in public. This has been 9 years in the making. These things take time, just because the dress size changes relatively fast the confidence factor OUTSIDE of your innermost comfort zone is much slower in following.

 

Hope this helps

[slolrner 15]

I think most men could journey thru life without once worrying about hurting someone’s feelings, it is just not on our natural radar screen. Most men worry about providing food, shelter, then about getting some sex. After that we would rather take a nap than sit worrying about if we have hurt someone’s feelings.

 

So when you framed the question the way you did he wasn’t thinking about feelings, he was thinking about getting some, and to him at the time it was all good, it was all just skin. Seconds later it probably dawned on him, “stupid, stupid, stupid, that was truly stupid.

 

It is what you get with real men. If you had wanted a Metrosexual, who could read your faintest need, you wouldn’t have been with him in the first place. Have patience (that is what I tell my wife as she has tried to train me), we just don’t worry about or think of the same things you do. If the guy’s heart is in the right place, he will begin to pick up the clues sooner or later (in my case I am sorry to say later), but he will begin to get it.

 

I married a feminist and I must say there were some clashes in the beginning, but we have the greatest imaginable marriage now, it just took a lot of work, and understanding on both sides. Today I am more sensitive, and she ignores lots of stupid stuff from me.

[funcpl4life 51]

I could have predicted that he was likely to say something brutally honest that would hurt my feelings and offend my politics beyond what I could suppress, given his comment during our first play time.

-I specifically asked for reassurance that he is honestly attracted to me and why. He refused to answer why because he's not into giving compliments.

 

I'm not into the "brutally honest" thing especially not in bed. We all live with our insecurities and punching someone's insecurity button doesn't lead to a good time in bed.

 

When asked a question of opinion during play, I always try to respond enthusiastically because I'm happy to be there. (even if I've said "less teeth" four times) If appropiate, I point at my erection, give them a thumbs up and say, "We concur."

 

Compliments, enthusiasm and general good manners are an excellent social lubricant especially when everybody is naked, but not yet breathing hard.

 

YMMV

Mr FC4L

 

(The Mrs concurs. We have all agreed to concur again at lunch. whoopee)

[good times 991]

sereneiders said:

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

 

There are moments for everithing, you have to know when something that would fit otherwise should be muted. And you gave the perfect example: this board. People doesn't post here while in the middle of the action, they do it before or afterwards, when they're in the mood to take the truth.

 

While this may be true, I hate to admit it, but if someone asks me something in the heat of the moment I will most likely say the first thing that comes to mind. I seriously doubt if I will take the time to put a lot of thought into what I am about to say because, as you said, "good sex requires your brain to be properly amused". Therefore, I am probably not going to stop thinking about sex in order to ponder all of the ramifications of what I am about to say in response to the question. I have a feeling that more guys are like me than not.

 

 

sereneiders said:

Let's suppose you're having intercourse with a lady, she's moaning because of how you move, you dare to ask her if she likes your cock, and she chuckles and says "well... it could be thicker, but a cock is a cock anyway". I don't know you, but I bet most the guys around would lose the erection unless on Viagra (it would happen to me for sure, even with Viagra), even when anyone of us would feel ok to hear the same lady, in any other scenarios, say that they like thicker cocks, and adding something else allowing you to feel appreciated for you to have a second time.

 

I would hope I am smart enough not to ask a question like that because, if I did, my reaction would probably be the same as yours. On the other hand, I wouldn't blame the woman for giving her opinion. I would be kicking myself for setting myself up for failure by asking such a question in the first place.

[LOL_OMG 130]

It's interesting the difference of opinions from men/women. I stand by my original opinion even with the extra information by the OP.

 

What I said about him not being around women much is kind of what Serenaiders stated....women are from Venus, it's a whole nother language...with enough contact with us Venus(ites?) guys can maybe speak enough to get it.

 

Anything to do with the body is a touchy subject for women. I don't know any woman who thinks her body is perfect. Notta one. It's the "barbie doll" syndrome, I think. Girls from early on are bombarded with images that are pretty much unrealistic as far as the ideal body.

 

So I kind of have a question for you Lindyswing...as a feminist, doesn't it kind of piss you off that it should matter at all whether your tits were perky or not? Or even acceptable to anyone but yourself?

 

Mrs

[lindyswing 15]

WARNING: touchy-feely yet militant feminist rant about loving your body to follow....also, I wrote this as the last post was written asking me if as a feminist, I was/am pissed...I think you'll see that yes, as a feminist, I'm pissed off about narrow beauty standards

 

I kinda have to agree with Goodtimes. There are things about my body that I'm self-concious about, and I would never even open up the opportunity for them to be discussed one way or the other. To me, to mention it sounds a little like fishing for compliments. You kinda put him on the spot, then when he said what came to mind first, you were upset. I don't think his intentions were to hurt. He just lacks some tact.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand why his comment may have hurt your feelings, and yes, there were more diplomatic answers that he could have said, but I always operate on a don't ask, don't tell policy when it comes to issues of weight, hair and the positioning of my nipples. I don't ask if my boobs look saggy in a tank top, and nobody tells me if they think they do.

 

Pepper

 

Pepper is totally right that I put him on the spot, he said what came to mind first and he had no intentions to hurt. I don't deny that I'm struggling with body image issues, that I contributed to our discussions and disagreements about them, and that I could have prevented getting my feelings hurt by avoiding any discussion of body parts or looks that I am self-conscious about. It's true that I could suppress, avoid and deny those feelings in a don't ask, don't tell policy, which I think is what he thinks would be the mature way to go. But ultimately, I don't feel like a don't ask, don't tell policy is the path to self-esteem and a mature view of what is beautiful, for him, me or anyone else. I'm not saying that I handled this with full self-esteem and maturity either, but I think my response was closer to attaining self-esteem than supressing my insecurities and therefore giving them strength and credibility. I think a mature view would appreciate the beauty in a diversity of body types, nipple positions and hair (aside: I don't even know what about Pepper's hair could possibly cause self-consciousness). I think a mature view would be to appreciate the beauty and sex appeal in every part of your own body just as it is--this is a very different thing than accepting flaws. A mature view would be able to respond to those who don't appreciate the beauty in every part of your body with sadness for their narrow vision and their inability to celebrate diversity in sex appeal. A mature approach would have the self-confidence to attempt to educate narrow-minded partners about what's sexy about every part of you and expand their vision beyond limiting Hollywood standards. And if they can't expand their vision, I don't see anything immature about preferring a partner who does appreciate all you have to offer. I don't want to make important topics off-limits for sharing and discussing with my partners. I want to be able to talk about the weight I've lost--I lost the weight for my health, I am proud of myself for developing healthy eating and excercise habits, and I think my family history with disordered eating is an interesting and important subject--it's an important part of who I am and an important part of getting to know me. And you can certainly bet that that goes double for getting to know my tits if you are my sex partner.

 

My tits are really super sexy. They may completely fail the pencil test, but they are full and voluptuous, and every other man and woman I've ever been with has fawned over them using his or her hands, mouth and words. It's tempting to post a picture of them On my good days, I know they are super sexy with all my heart--and when we started fucking in front of the mirror, I couldn't even wrap my mind around how he could possibly not agree with me...because I was getting an objective view of what they actually look like and they looked hot to me. But not only is he dead set that my tits are not beautiful...he also said that he has never in his life been with a partner who has good breasts. So is it me who needs to mature by accepting that my breasts are saggy and flawed? Or is it him who has some unrealistic expectation about what constitutes beautiful breasts? To his credit, I think he's trying to work on these issues. Bottom line: I don't think it would be mature to let men perpetuate narrow beauty standards under any circumstance without challenging them about those narrow beauty standards. I'm just not yet mature enough to do that consistently with confidence and no sign of tears, especially with guys I really like and want to like me back.

 

Regarding whether it's a good idea to ask me if I like your cock when you're fucking me...um, yeah, please, please, please ask me over and over again with your best dirty talk because my answer is nothing but yes, yes, yes, and the more you ask me the better it feels. And geez, my primary partner normally can't come without me talking dirty like that about my tits...how am I supposed to read you guy's minds! First, you want me to talk about my tits, then you don't--men, they can't ever make up their minds!

[NandTfromCA 84]

lindyswing said:

...The first time we played, I shared that I had lost 55 lbs in the last 2 years. He responded to this by telling me that he could tell because of my loose skin and then he pulled on my breast...

 

I am definitely going with the "this guy should have thought of a better answer" crowd. I think that comment is even worse then the "perky tit" one. Different strokes for different folks…maybe this guys is great in many ways but if I heard a guy say that to my wife, that would be the last time we hung out with him (that's putting it lightly). I realize in your situation, your husband wouldn’t be around to hear that but I was just imagining the situation.

 

There are so many positive things to comment on when with a woman. If a woman asked, “Do you like my _____ (substitute any feature that you are not crazy about)”, I just don’t think it takes much brainpower or concentration to say something like “I like all of you, you sexy thing” or how about “sure I do”…I mean, if you don’t, why are your hands all over them??? If he’s already enjoying her and caressing her, he shouldn’t need to lie to think of something positive to say.

 

lindyswing said:

...I specifically asked for reassurance that he is honestly attracted to me and why. He refused to answer why because he's not into giving compliments.

 

I actually wrote a long paragraph about him refusing to answer if he thinks you are sexy or not “because he isn’t into giving compliments” but I realized that I would probably just be fanning the flames, and deleted it.

 

In closing though, everyone is into swinging (or polyamory) for different reasons. We happen to swing to have fun and this doesn't sound fun.

[Tybee Swing 286]

lindyswing said:

He thinks my response during our second weekend together was unreasonable and immature. If I were a mature person I would have accepted my breasts as flaws long ago and what he said in the second encounter would be no big deal, whereas I think:

 

1) I responded very very reasonably

 

2) at the time he made the comment, it would be reasonable behavior for a woman to decide that he's too insensitive to deserve to be her sex partner [even though ultimately I did not do this]

 

3) my breasts aren't flaws and what's healthy and mature is to recognize their beauty and sexiness

 

So many of you seem to agree with me, but some of you don't...for anyone still paying attention to this thread, does the additional info change any of your minds or trigger any other thoughts?

 

I TOTALLY agree with you. You and he are drastically different people. Do you really feel that you are compatible, even for "just sex"? Any lover of mine, regardless of how casual the encounter is, will be a gentleman and will know how to treat a woman and talk to a woman, or else he'll never have to be graced with my naked presence, again. I think that most women would feel exactly the way that you do. Sex is much more than fucking - it's more mental than anything. Mental sexual stimulation begins with feeling that you are attractive to the person you are with.

[Tybee Swing 286]

Listen ladies, some of us males don't have the intelligence make up to play mind games, especially when interacting with you, loveliest women.

 

Common courtesy and tact aren't mind games. They are life skills. Those who learn them can get most anything they want in life. Those who don't, are usually left alone and wondering why people avoid them. Just my thoughts.

[EvilMJ 65]

It's hard to respond to something like this without hearing the other side of the story. Was the guy being totally insensitve or was he being honest but not realizing he was saying something that could be potentially hurtful. who knows.

 

If you are happy with yourself and your new body, then I say enjoy it and not worry about how others percieve you.

 

One important fact in life...we are not going to be everything to everyone. We all have our preferences. My husband was watching a show with me one day that had all these beautiful models on it and rather than drooling over them he just said "stick women, I can't believe anyone finds that attractive." Bless him. . He was serious though, he doesn't find bony women all that attractive, he likes a woman with curves. Now another guy is going to find those thin women very sexy. One thing I can tell you..I am never going to ask anyone if they like my hips .

 

So it's all subjective. He may think your boobs are not so perky, probably could have said it better, but someone else may think they are hot as hell.

 

If you are williing to put yourself out there like that, then you are going to have to expect both good and bad feedback. However I think that while having sex I don't think he is going to think over his answer to determine whether or not it empowering women or supporting a sterotype of beaty. It is most likely he just said what popped into his head, opened his mouth and inserted his foot.

[Additude 457]

The guy that said that is an ignorant jerk.

 

I could not imagine myself being in that situation and asked that question and me responding in that way.

 

If the guy said "All skin is good skin" then do you think his mentality would allow him to say "All meat is good meat" or "All pussy is good pussy"...somewhat meaning that it's just another piece of "meat" or "pussy" attached to whoever you are talking about.

[sereneiders 263]

If the guy said "All skin is good skin" then do you think his mentality would allow him to say "All meat is good meat" or "All pussy is good pussy"...somewhat meaning that it's just another piece of "meat" or "pussy" attached to whoever you are talking about.

 

Dito

 

It's exactly my point here. One thing is being honest (even in the wrong moment), like saying "well, the left one hangs a little bellow the right one, but the nipple points uprads and that gives it a touch", something different is to say "skin is skin", which translates to "I dunno, I don't care, I give it a shit about the question, let's fuck and shut up".

 

For those guys to believe this requires some of the blood in the barin that is by then in the other head as to be able to figure out the proper answer because they're playing mind games, i'd suggest to ask them for a lady (a friend, hire hone if you don't have any girlfriend) to do a Pavlovian training: she ask one of these questions at any moment, the guy say the first crossing his mind, if it's nice, he gets a candy (whatever prize), if it's harsh or doubtfull, get a punishment (slap in the face, cigaret burn, electric shock, whatever) and it won't take too long to learn.

[sereneiders 263]

I think most men could journey thru life without once worrying about hurting someone’s feelings, it is just not on our natural radar screen. Most men worry about providing food, shelter, then about getting some sex. After that we would rather take a nap than sit worrying about if we have hurt someone’s feelings.

 

So when you framed the question the way you did he wasn’t thinking about feelings, he was thinking about getting some, and to him at the time it was all good, it was all just skin. Seconds later it probably dawned on him, “stupid, stupid, stupid, that was truly stupid.

 

It is what you get with real men. If you had wanted a Metrosexual, who could read your faintest need, you wouldn’t have been with him in the first place. Have patience (that is what I tell my wife as she has tried to train me), we just don’t worry about or think of the same things you do. If the guy’s heart is in the right place, he will begin to pick up the clues sooner or later (in my case I am sorry to say later), but he will begin to get it.

 

I married a feminist and I must say there were some clashes in the beginning, but we have the greatest imaginable marriage now, it just took a lot of work, and understanding on both sides. Today I am more sensitive, and she ignores lots of stupid stuff from me.

 

So you really believe that being sentisive means necesarily to be a "metrosexual", that having the minimum social skill required in this scenario is to be "metrosexual", or even to lie to a woman just to avoid her to spoil the moment with her "mind games" would be to be "metrosexual"?

 

Any of the three cases would had been enough to avoid the entire situation and this post: sensitivity, social skills, or social engineering (or any combination of the three).

 

But most important, do you believe a "metrosexual" isn't a "real man"? Or even someone who intelectually endorse, in part or as a whole, femisinm, wouldn't be a "real man"?

 

I'd say you have a very narrowed view towards the males, and that you dimish your value as a person by doing so, and also that it seems to me that this is what turns you on in the relationship YOU have with YOUR wife.

 

But setting appart guys daring them to be "real men" by means of being blunt is a way to force things into stereotipes, not different than a guy prettending a "real woman" should resemble the folded center page Penthouse's model.

 

And then you say a woman: if you want a "real man" then you have to accept his bluntness, shut up, and get fucked the way HE wants, or pick a "metrosexual" (with your meaning of that, which I suspect is one able to accept women deserve to be blunt instead) but, well... we know it's not the same in bed.

 

There are shades of gray, being feminist doesn't necesarily mean she wouldn't like a "real man" able to fuck her brains out, even roleplaying games in bed where he could be the blunt macho and she could be a whore.

 

Being a "real man" doesn't necesarily means to be unsensitive and unable to put at work four neurons in the aquisition on basic social skills and diplomatic etiquette code to deal with Venusians, nor to put at work a couple more trying to understand Venusian language.

 

So... how much do you differ from this other guy who said "skin is skin" here?

[bill&sabrina 22]

LikeMinds321 said:

You didn't ask him what he thought of your tits, so I think you said things just right.

 

He obviously thought she did. Both parties, not just the man, should have thought about what they said. I have heard a whole lot of talk about men needing to learn how to talk to women, but no talk about women doing the same. What ever happened to equal rights?

[NandTfromCA 84]

Tybee Swing said:

Common courtesy and tact aren't mind games. They are life skills. Those who learn them can get most anything they want in life. Those who don't, are usually left alone and wondering why people avoid them. Just my thoughts.

 

Dito

 

 

bill&sabrina said:

...I have heard a whole lot of talk about men needing to learn how to talk to women, but no talk about women doing the same. What ever happened to equal rights?

 

Totally agree.

 

Let’s turn the tables- John is fucking Jane who seems to really be enjoying herself. John says “you like my cock?” should Jane say:

 

A) “Honestly, it’s quite small and I usually like men to be much more adequate but hey, at least it’s a cock.”

 

B) “Your cock is the best I ever had (lie) and it is huge (lie)

 

C) “Oh yes, I am having a great time!!!”

 

If you are enjoying something...anything...about your partner, you should be able to tell the truth (option C) while at the same time not hurting feelings. Unless you aren’t having a good time in which case, you should leave.

[bill&sabrina 22]

NandTfromCA said:

Totally agree.

 

Let’s turn the tables- John is fucking Jane who seems to really be enjoying herself. John says “you like my cock?” should Jane say:

 

A) “Honestly, it’s quite small and I usually like men to be much more adequate but hey, at least it’s a cock.”

 

B) “Your cock is the best I ever had (lie) and it is huge (lie)

 

C) “Oh yes, I am having a great time!!!”

 

If you are enjoying something...anything...about your partner, you should be able to tell the truth (option C) while at the same time not hurting feelings. Unless you aren’t having a good time in which case, you should leave.

 

You are missing my point. If a guy was told his cock didn't measure up in one way or another his feelings wouldn't be hurt. You are still giving him attention, and to him that is what really matters. My point is that both parties in a relationship need to learn how to communicate. If the original author of this thread knew how to communicate with men, she wouldn't have posted. She would have known he didn't mean anything hurtful, or rude.

[NandTfromCA 84]

You are missing my point. If a guy was told his cock didn't measure up in one way or another his feelings wouldn't be hurt...

I see what you are saying but still disagree- AND that's totally fine for us to disagree. I think there are many men that would get hurt feelings, or at least hurt pride, if they were told that their cock did not measure up.

 

We agree that men and women do communicate differently BUT I think one should be thoughtful and aware of how one’s words will be taken whether male or female. To say that men are just not as sensitive or that they should be expected to say things that might be hurtful just because they communicate differently, is a copout (one man’s opinion).

 

I can be as big a jerk as anyone but I guess I do it in other ways (other than saying mean things to woman who get naked with me).

 

Mr.

[bill&sabrina 22]

I am just going to answer the original question. Sometimes it may sound like a man is being insensitive, when he isn't. So ask before you start nursing your "wounded" feelings. It works much better if Sabrina asks if I meant to hurt, than to assume. I will happily apologize for sounding rude, and try my best to get my point across nicely. Pouting will only make things worse.

[LOL_OMG 130]

bill&sabrina said:

So ask before you start nursing your "wounded" feelings.

 

That in itself sounds a bit insensitive. If you have to ask what the intent....you already feel wounded, I mean it bothered someone enough to ask.

 

I am a huge believer in you reap what you sew. I adore my man, and I tell him that. I tell him how hot he is, how cute his smile, how intelligent he is...not to just stroke him but because I believe it. Instead of just thinking thoughts of kindness...I give it back into words.

 

What I get back from those seeds that I've sewn is a sparkle in his eyes, a smile on his face for no particular reason, a soft touch on my thigh when we're in bed together....and a love that has been nourished with kindness and fun.

 

I'd only add that I've been in marriages and relationships where alot of harsh words were spoken, even jokingly....but it does it's damage. It degrades and it diminishes mutual respect, and it gets ugly. When you treat each other with kindness and respect you will receive that in return (I've found). I would at least want kindness and respect from a play partner in swinging.

 

Mrs LOL

[davidnjoy 15]

I'm with goodtimes. If you don't want to know the answer to a question, why ask!?! If you are self-conscious about a certain area about your body, why ask specifically about an area! No matter what the guy said you would take it wrong, because you would only see the bad implication of it. Take "I like all skin" as a compliment.... your skin is included!

[Additude 457]

You are missing my point. If a guy was told his cock didn't measure up in one way or another his feelings wouldn't be hurt. You are still giving him attention, and to him that is what really matters. My point is that both parties in a relationship need to learn how to communicate. If the original author of this thread knew how to communicate with men, she wouldn't have posted. She would have known he didn't mean anything hurtful, or rude.

 

I don't think I agree with this. The guy can't just say stupid shit and expect the woman to accept it, or visa versa. Communication happens in three steps, Transmission, Reception, Response and in that order.

 

The woman did not ask such a lame question that would have set herself up for such a response from the man.

 

The response from the man was not well thought out by him, in turn the response was not mis-understood by the woman. A person just can't say stupid shit and expect the Receptor to interpret it as not meaning anything hurtful or rude.

 

The sender of the information has to make sure that what they said is not interpreted as anything hurtful or rude, and if it is, an apology and explaination is to be expected.

 

Besides that, these two individuals were acquaintances , not BF/GF or married, etc. and didn't fully understand each other personalities and how they respond so therefore more thought should have gone into the response.

[bill&sabrina 22]

The guy can't just say stupid shit and expect the woman to accept it, or visa versa.

 

Will you please show me where the hell I suggested this. Am I really that hard to understand? I said that BOTH parties need to learn how to communicate with each other. I don't think I am the first to say this, but that guy gave her a compliment. He didn't say anything stupid. Could he have used better words? Yeah sure, he was misunderstood. Obviously he could have worded what he said in a different way. There is always to sides to a coin though. In my opinion the opposite side of this paricular coin is where women learn to understand men when we don't word things quite right. Which I now realize she is doing. Yeah I said if she knew how to communicate she wouldn't have come hear and asked. I realize though she is trying to understand him. Maybe we can all learn something as well. I am still baffled that some can't understand that I said BOTH parties need to learn.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

lindyswing said:

So many of you seem to agree with me, but some of you don't...for anyone still paying attention to this thread, does the additional info change any of your minds or trigger any other thoughts?

 

Yes the additional information does change my mind and trigger some thoughts.

 

First as JnCC said

Quote

The guys comment was rude and ill-timed. Whether it rises to the level of tossing him off the bed and out the door or not is something only the OP can decide, but I suspect he came pretty damn close, or she wouldn't be posting about it here.

 

I would have tossed him off the bed and out the door. His comment comes across as settling for an available pussy until one that is more in line with his preferences comes along. I don't want to have sex with someone who is settling for me any more than I want to settle for someone (kind of like taking one for the team to me)

 

lindyswing said:

First, my primary partner and I tend more towards polyamory than strictly recreational swinging. I have an intense romantic crush on this guy, and it's ok that I feel this way.

 

I'm not sure why you would have an intense romantic crush on a guy that is insensitive and seems to view your body as having flaws that he has no problem pointing out to you while expecting you to be mature enough to take his insensitive comments.

 

lindyswing said:

-I then apologized to him for saying what I said--I was a little teary I admit. The reason I apologized: if I had been thinking straight, I could have predicted that he was likely to say something brutally honest that would hurt my feelings and offend my politics beyond what I could suppress, given his comment during our first play time.

 

Still have no idea why you would want to play with this man a second time let alone why you would apologize because you asked a question that he answered in an insensitive why.

 

lindyswing said:

He finally came up with a compliment about my sexiness...and man, it was some compliment...totally genuine, totally knocked my socks off. The evening culminated in me in front of a mirror telling him all the things I love about my looks; then we fucked in front of said mirror while I went on and on about how hot I am and that he's crazy not to like my breasts. It was totally hot. I also found it rather therapeutic.

 

Okay, so your having sex (3 times now) with a guy who has to "finally" come up with a compliment after 3 play sessions, hurting your feelings, and then a therapeutic conversation about how you need to have a better self image. You probably could have if you were playing with less of a jerk!

 

You fucking in front of a mirror telling yourself how hot you are and he's crazy not to like your breasts to me just reinforces the fact that he just might be settling until something better comes along and trying to convince you other wise.

 

IMHO...dump the jerk and find a different playmate!

[lovefest04 700]

I stated in my early post that men sometimes just don't get how to communicate with women.

 

In this situation, which is probably not unique, I think that she is expecting too much from the relationship and he was too insensiive to know when to keep his mouth shut.

 

Let's face it, at some level, most of us are self-conscious about some part or aspect of our bodies. Just reading many of the posts that start out with "I'm a little heavy",

"I have scars from childbirth", "my cock isn't as big as some others". It is clear that none of us are perfect in our own minds. Shit, we're our worst critics. But, heck, swinging does allow us the opportunity to let that all go and just focus on fun, frolic and positive attention.

 

We have play partners that we really love and see outside of the bedroom, but we don't expect or request that they help us with self esteem issues. We think its perfectly ok to skip that, isn't there enough people judging us at work, at church, at soccer games, and at vanilla bars?

 

As swingers, let's all make a pact to always make everyone we come into contact with feel GOOD. Always say something nice, flirt with people just because it make THEM and US feel good. Who knows, swinging may be the solution to a lot of the worlds problems.

 

With love, oh and by the way you're all fantastic.