Does having boundaries mean personal hangups or jealousy?

[dezaray 15]

How come a lot of experienced people SEEM to have this opinion that any time someone has limits/boundaries, it's a hang-up or they're being jealous?

[LOL_OMG 130]

Not quite sure what you mean Dez. Early on we had lots of boundaries, code words, rules and stuff. We met experienced people and they really didn't seem to have a problem with it (especially since we were new). Maybe we were just lucky in the people we found...

[fun4Ds 1,098]

limits and boundries were always a good thing to us, as long as everyones were discussed. we are not shure on what you mean.

[good times 991]

How come a lot ofexperienced people SEEM to have this opinion that any time someone has limits/boundaries, it's a hang-up or they're being jealous?

I think most people have some limits/boundries, even experienced swingers. It has been our experience though, that if a couple has excessive amounts of rules and boundries they usually have issues like jealousy or insecurity in their relationship. Either that or they are just really new, we were like most others here when we first started. We had so many rules we couldn't even remember them all. Now we have very few, because it didn't take us long to see that our excessive amount of rules created more problems than they prevented. Additionally, we spent so much time worrying about not breaking our rules that it pretty much got in the way of the fun. That is also why now if we meet a couple that has too many rules, or rules that seem odd to us (like no kissing) we just politely pass.

[Spoomonkey 421]

We started out with a lot of rules - but those kind of disappeared when we realized that the key issue is respect.

 

If you have that, you're fine.

 

I don't know that rules are really a sign of anything - everyone goes through the lifestyle their own way. Their rules might be too constrictive for us - might make the experience less than fun - but everyone has to realize their own comfort zones and recognize those with whatever boundaries are appropriate.

[WesternSwing 504]

dezaray said:

How come a lot of experienced people SEEM to have this opinion that any time someone has limits/boundaries, it's a hang-up or they're being jealous?

I think this is a bit of a generalization. I don't think allot of experienced swingers feel this way, especially since we all had a long list of rules when we started. I know we did, and I we know exactly where others are when they enter the lifestyle. I feel most of the people we know feel the same way. If you are one that has this long list of rules I can see how it'd look like that, though.

[Chicup 41]

Let me give you a REAL example of boundries that tell an experianced swinger that they are not 'ready' to swing.

 

What else would you like to say, do, see, hear about or learn about.

THESE ARE THE THINGS WE WILL DO IF THE MOOD IS RIGHT:

1] Explore female-female fantasies (no set limits)

2] Your man - kissing and above waste contact with me

3] Your woman - kissing and above waste contact with my husband

4] Same room sex (with spouse)

 

THESE ARE THE THINGS WE MIGHT DO:

1] My husband/Your woman - everything but intercourse.

2] Me/Your husband - a work in SLOW progress, but previously let another man perform oral on me (See above). No guarantees though.

 

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE NOT READY FOR NOW AND MAYBE NEVER:

1] Full swap.....

 

 

This is, shall we say, a red flag

[JTcamp05 9]

good times said:

It has been our experience though, that if a couple has excessive amounts of rules and boundaries they usually have issues like jealousy or insecurity in their relationship.

 

That's why!!

[Amanda69 24]

Quote

How come a lot of experienced people SEEM to have this opinion that any time someone has limits/boundaries, it's a hang-up or they're being jealous?

 

Also not sure what you are getting at. I haven't seen people being overly critical on couples setting limits/boundaries, in fact just the opposite. With newer couples the advice often seems to be, communication and set your limits/boundaries.

[2jersey 16]

It has been our experience though, that if a couple has excessive amounts of rules and boundries they usually have issues like jealousy or insecurity in their relationship.

 

To us, boundaries indicate that a couple has openly and honestly communicated with one another and has considered the risks of swinging in conjunction with the rewards. The worst offense, in our opinion, is to discover your comfort zone after the fact... Safety is our first rule, fun is secondary...

[04kingpin 15]

Quote

This is, shall we say, a red flag

 

So There is no middle ground? Do all your vanilla friends have issues then?

 

A lot of people here seem to think that it's all or nothing. So where is the boundary in your mind that tells you the flag is green and not red. Most people have boundaries of some sort and that dont mean they are "not ready". We prefer same room together, no anal with the "other" guy, and no playing without our SO there. How about no cream pies? Are we a red flag? Are you BI? If you are not, does that mean you have issues? Of course it does. It means you dont want suck a dick. So are you a red flag? To some people you are. You have your boundaries-limits and so do we. This does not mean we should not be in the lifestyle.

 

Quote

 

How come a lot of experienced people SEEM to have this opinion that any time someone has limits/boundaries, it's a hang-up or they're being jealous?

 

 

Also not sure what you are getting at. I haven't seen people being overly critical on couples setting limits/boundaries, in fact just the opposite. With newer couples the advice often seems to be, communication and set your limits/boundaries.

 

Better read through some of these posts again then because that attitude is plastered all over this forum (and this post). It seems the more experienced people are the more judgemental they are. Of course not all and I dont mean to be so general about and I do not mean to offend anyone.

 

One of the biggest concerns we have is how people will react to our limits-boundaries based what we have read here.

 

So where is that line that in your opinion says green flag and not red.

[Spoomonkey 421]

04kingpin said:

A lot of people here seem to think that it's all or nothing.

 

I wouldn't say a LOT of people here feel this way. Actually, I think most of the posters here respect boundaries - but if those boundaries are too constricting, they might not choose to play.

 

For example - we have played with couples who say "no kissing" but the experience didn't feel right to us. Kissing is part of the fun for us. So - if someone said "no kissing" (a rule we totally get because it was on our first - very long - list of rules) we would say "thanks but no thanks."

 

Nothing wrong with them - but the play wouldn't be fun for us - so what's the point?

 

04kingpin said:

We prefer same room together, no anal with the "other" guy, and no playing without our SO there.

 

These are our boundaries as well. I am not sure what constitutes "red flag", but my guess is people who can't move until they consult their rule book. "I can put my foot here, but not here" types.

 

I once had an experience where a woman sat indian style on the bed - totally naked - and went through an impressive list of rules - all of which related to things I would never do or things I would ask about during play. Needless to say - the lecture wasn't wood-worthy so I finally stopped her and asked, "are we going to fuck or what?"

 

She laughed and we did...

 

She realized that everything was going to be just fine - and I was going to ask before I did anything that I felt might not be invited. First times are always fun that way.

[04kingpin 15]

Choosing not play with couples because of their boundaries is one thing. To say someone isn't ready or should not be swinging because of those boundaries is another. We would most likely not play with a couple who would not do oral (because we like it so much) but that does not mean we think they should not be doing this and we would never tell them that. In other words we would respect their boundaries and move on without labeling them.

 

There is a middle ground and high ground I guess. But all too often I have read in the forums that some people in this high ground look down or somehow think they are more enlightened than those of us with boundaries.

 

One could say that couples with no limits have issues that could mean that maybe there is a problem in their relationship.

One could also say that those with too many boundaries have problems in their relationship.

 

We have learned a great deal here and I want to thank those who take the time to give advice and share their experience although I may not agree with all of it.

 

BUT...I think that maybe some of of those same people forget what making the jump is like and how they felt when they were rookies. AND.... some of those same people tell people they have problems when there isn't any. They just have their limits. Simple as that.

 

I hope I don't offend anyone and I know it sounds as if I'm painting with a broad brush here. There are exceptions to everything and I don't mean to imply that all you veterans feel this way. I'm just trying to give a perspective from someone who has limits for our own reasons.

 

This kind of struck a nerve with me because one of the things holding us back or slowing us down is how we would be looked upon because of our limits. This worry of ours is based on what we have read here.

 

Just needed to vent.

[good times 991]

It has been our experience though, that if a couple has excessive amounts of rules and boundries they usually have issues like jealousy or insecurity in their relationship.

 

I think I should clarify that in my previous statement above, I was referring to people who have been swinging for a while. I was not referring to people just getting started.

 

I think that when people first start they have a lot of insecurity about how they will react to the new experience, I know we sure did. I think this is a prefectly natural fear of the unknown. After they get some experience then it seems to us that usually one of two things happens. The most common is that they redefine and simplify their rules and boundaries, as they get more comfortable with swinging. The other, fortanately pretty rare, is they find out that they don't handle certain situations well, and instead of taking a step back and considering that maybe swinging isn't their thing after all, they make more rules to try to avoid those situations that triggered their negative emotions. In the case of the later, sometimes that works out fine, but if their rules become excessive, it just doesn't tend to be conducive to a good time, in my opinion.

 

As I said before, most people have rules and boundaries that they have established over time. I don't think we really have any rules that we consider "red flags" as much as, like Spoomonkey said, rules that aren't compatible with our idea of a good time. Does that mean that if they have rules that don't mesh with ours that they are wrong, or that we would somehow look down on them for it? No, it just means we aren't compatible for play; those same rules are, no doubt, perfectly fine with someone else. I also don't think that just because a couple has rules that are different from ours that they are automatically having a hang-up of some sort or jealousy issues.

 

As far as new people go, we do understand as we were new once too. With new people, as long as they don't have rules that are a no go for us (no kissing for example), and both sides of the couple are on the same page (an example of not being on the same page would be where one half of the couple is really into it and the other one is going along just to make them happy), then we wouldn't have a problem playing with them. The only difference for us when playing with a newbie is that we tend to be a little more cautious and observant than we would with a more experienced couple. The reason for that is that it isn't uncommon for someone to get cold feet in the middle of the action the first time. Having seen this happen a couple of times, it is a simple matter for us to keep our senses tuned for it, and should it happen, to stop and let them regroup and work out their feelings. Then, if they so choose, we can play another day. By taking this approach, we have yet to have a newbie that didn't want to hook up for a second play session.

[Chicup 41]

There are boundaries, and then there are rule books.

 

Boundaries we have accepted and had fun with, have included, no oral, no kissing, and no full swap (three different couples). Those are fine with us.

 

If you need to check the profile mid play to see if you are violating one of their rules or not, odds are they are not ready to swing in my opinion. While it may mean the couple has really talked about it, its more than we would want to deal with.

 

We have had wonderful soft swap experiences but if the couple isn't sure they really want to be there, we would rather not be either.

[JTcamp05 9]

I totally understand the need for new couples to talk about boundries, but if you NEED to have them.....there is a trust and/or insecurity issue in your relationship!

[Spoomonkey 421]

JTcamp05 said:

I totally understand the need for new couples to talk about boundaries, but if you NEED to have them.....there is a trust and/or insecurity issue in your relationship!

 

 

How so?

[MoonLightKiss 28]

When my hubby and I first started, we had some trouble setting rules for us. We had a list a mile long, for stupid reasons these rules were on it. Like no kissing. I said we could, he said it was too intimate and we shouldn't. What we did, was talk these rules to death, and accepted that if the other had a good reason, (not an excuse) as to why it shouldn't be a rule, then the other had to take the time to think about it and then respond rather than just automatically saying "no".

 

What we ended up with were a set of guidelines, and a set of rules. Then we ended up with just two rules. Stop, means just that. Stop. No ifs, no whining, no complaining then or later. Stop means something uncomfortable for one of us is going on, we stop and then we can discuss it later in private. Our second rule, is respect each and everyone in the room. That means our spouse and the other couple/single. As long as those two rules are followed, we do not forsee any problems.

 

Now, if we were too meet someone with a list a mile long of rules, I would have to say I would probably take more time to get to know them before playing with them, just to make sure they are not going to have problems. But I base this decision on other threads I have read by more experienced swingers. I have only had one encounter so I really do not know for myself.

[CuriousInOregon 16]

I don't know if it would be a hang up or not with rules, I think it depends on what they are and how new or experienced the couple is. For example, If the couple has readily admitted that they are NEW (2 experiences or less In my personal opinion) I don't think that it would be unusual to find their rules being a bit more strict next to the seasoned pro that knows what they are in for.

 

I know for us we went in with the aspirations of ANYTHING GOES just because we did not want the hang ups to hold us back. But if you see a repetitive pattern of above the waist only, or none of this or only that, then I would be sensing RED Flags and would try my luck elsewhere. So in answering your question, it depends on the couples experience levels as to whether rules will cause hang ups or not.

[04kingpin 15]

JTcamp05 said:

I totally understand the need for new couples to talk about boundaries, but if you NEED to have them.....there is a trust and/or insecurity issue in your relationship!

WTF!!!

 

That is just a stupid thing to say.

[CuriousInOregon 16]

i just don't know what to say to that, I think that each couple has their own rules or boundaries so they need to find a like-minded couple.

[dezaray 15]

good times said:

I think most people have some limits/boundries, even experienced swingers.

 

REALLLLY!!??

 

good times said:

It has been our experience though, that if a couple has excessive amounts of rules and boundries they usually have issues like jealousy or insecurity in their relationship. Either that or they are just really new, we were like most others here when we first started.

 

Seeeeee, experienced people DO think that... so how do experienced people decide wich it is? Jealousy or new....? My SO has accused me of being jealous, and it REALLLY pisses me off, because I'm not. I KNOW what I do for him! I KNOW we share something that can't be replaced by some sexual fun. I just want to take things at my own pace, if he had it his way, the pace would be a LOT faster funny but not so funny, because it causes issues sometimes. As with anything new I'm about to embark on, I like to be informed and make good choices.

 

We're just realllly new, and I admit, the further we get into this, the more we talk, the more I learn about this lifestyle and other people's opinions/outlook on things, the more secure I feel in letting go of some of the original rules.... like only kissing each other.

 

I now see it's unfair to place that limit on my SO, (it's caused some discontent between us) however I'm going to reserve the right to refrain unless I'm SO turned on/attracted to someone that I feel I want to kiss them.

 

As far as other rules:

-We ONLY do this together.

-always condoms with penetration!

-I don't want other men cumming on my face, or anywhere near my crotch (for obvious reasons)

 

NEITHER of these above will EVER change, period.

Below, these are up for change possibly, in the future.

 

-No anal w/other men

-no rough stuff from new play partners, maybe down the road once there's some history established...

 

that's pretty much it

 

oh and we've agreed not to mix play partners with real life, although again, there are exceptions to this, and it may or may not change depending on who we meet, and how we jive.

 

good times said:

excessive amount of rules created more problems than they prevented. Additionally, we spent so much time worrying about not breaking our rules that it pretty much got in the way of the fun.

 

I can see potential for that, which is why I gave up on the kissing thing. Would be off topic to get into explaining this one here... although I'm sure any seasoned poster knows all the reasons people, mainly women give for this rule. I'm sentimental and a lil old fashioned in a few ways, what can I say....

 

Thanks ALL!

[dezaray 15]

 I simply see it as someone WITH no boundaries, judging those that do have them. I don't care for being judged, it makes it seem like you think your better than me. you=general terms

 

2 of our main rules, boundaries, limits, whatever you want to call them:

 

-NO penetration w/o condoms.

I'm NOT in this to place my TRUST in strangers, sure to a degree we are, however to trust another man to fuck me with no condom is PURE INSANITY!

 

and

 

-We ONLY play together.

For US, to trust each other that one wont play without the other, IS about RESPECT, and honoring the relationship NOT jealousy or insecurity.

 

enough said

[BiloxiCouple 695]

Everyone has boundaries.

 

Someone here said that most of us are not true swingers because we have limits. Yet he had a limit that he wouldn't play with - guys. So he is missing out on 50% or so of the population. So are the bi-sexual people the only real swingers? Nah.

 

Then there is the new one I just recently saw that was about "fertility swinging". That's a limit for us.

 

I could go on. Not everything is for everyone.

 

I wish I could remember who gave me this quote a long time ago:

 

"It's not just about the sex, it's about the attitude"

 

I am here to make Elaine and I happy, if you happen to come along for that ride with us, then that is great also.

[Tybee Swing 286]

dezaray said:

-We ONLY do this together.

-always condoms with penetration!

-I don't want other men cumming on my face, or anywhere near my crotch (for obvious reasons)

 

NEITHER of these above will EVER change, period.

Below, these are up for change possibly, in the future.

 

-No anal w/other men

-no rough stuff from new play partners, maybe down the road once there's some history established...

 

that's pretty much it

 

Dez, in our opinion, these are not excessive rules. These are all very common rules, and not many! Most of these rules aren't about being new or established swingers, either - they're common among all kinds of swingers.

 

As for the same-room / separate-room thing, many couples get very turned-on by seeing their mate getting turned-on. They enjoy and prefer watching their partner while they have their fun, too - so same-room is much more fun for them and what they want. This is nothing to do with insecurity. It's a preference.

 

To us, the no-kissing thing is a strict rule. We wouldn't choose to be with a couple with a no-kissing rule, personally. But, you've already stricken that off your list, anyhow.

 

Enjoy!

[NandTfromCA 84]

Rules in this context are like security for your home- some people have locks on their doors, some have alarms, some have surveillance cameras, some have “panic rooms”, some have guard dogs, some people might even pay bodyguards to watch over them and their house. I’m sure there are many other security features that I haven’t even thought of.

 

Is the person with door locks being insecure/paranoid? How about if they have an alarm on their house…are they insecure now? How about if they have all of the above and maybe even a secure tunnel that leads from their home to the police station…are they insecure now?

 

People who barely lock their house will think the people with tunnels are insecure. People with tunnels with think people who don’t lock their house are stupid. The point is that the more your opinions differ, the more likely you will pass judgment about a persons motives…and, in my opinion, the more likely you will be somewhat correct in that judgment. (“likely” is the key word…it doesn’t mean “always”, just a statistical probability).

 

Although we have a “to each their own” philosophy, and although we might never say anything out loud, we might think the person who has too many of those safety features is a little insecure. Maybe the insecurity is well founded because they had problems (let's say break-ins) in the past. Even if it is, we might not want to go to that persons house because we could get sucked into those problems (again, just an analogy).

 

The same thing applies to swinging. Putting security features (rules) in place is a good thing. Having too many might cause us to question what problems they have had, or insecurities they have. A “red flag” doesn’t mean we are branding them as insecure or looking down on them. It just means that we will heighten our awareness and sensitivity to potential issues….issues that we don’t want part of our swinging experience. We may even decide not to play with them, just as they might decide not to play with us because we don't have enough rules.

 

T

[JTcamp05 9]

I'm not trying to bash those who have "rules" I just think that if you as a couple "need" rules to prevent one or the other from doing something that makes the other uncomfortable...that IS different from having rules. My statement was about needing them verses having them.

 

Now really if you haven't communicated your thoughts feelings and desires with your spouse enough prior to swinging.......you are not going into it fully aware of what may or may not happen. Likewise if you have that kind of communication where is the NEED, do you not trust your spouse to respect your feelings?

 

That of course is what is preached over and over on the board. Talk, Talk Talk.....and its good advise, Its one of the reasons we were so well adjusted to the lifestyle. I think is would be good for everyone thinking of entertaining the idea of swinging to communicate like this. We spent years talking before our first encounter and when it happened there were no suprises or hang up, we had processed it over and over so many times in our minds that the only suprise is how much fun we really had.

 

I'll say it again there is nothing wrong with rules or boundaries...everyone has them. That of course is what keeps us civalized. I think that if couples have excessive boundries that they wouldnt be complatiable with a more open minded couple. Is that stupid?

[JTcamp05 9]

If you want to get into specifics....we don't swing with out condoms, my wife is NOT into anal, we sure wouldn't trust a stranger in our home, and we prefer couples with a similar background (family, kids, stable home life etc, etc...).

 

But of course those are issues we have discussed and know with out a doubt in our hearts lines that we BOTH do not want to cross. Do we need those rules no because we respect them regardless of the situation.

[Spoomonkey 421]

JTcamp05 said:

I'm not trying to bash those who have "rules" I just think that if you as a couple "need" rules to prevent one or the other from doing something that makes the other uncomfortable...

 

Thanks for clarifying. This makes perfect sense.

 

When we started, we had a ton of rules. We still have "rules" but mostly those are just an acknowledgement of what we know about each other - and they are completely unnecessary. What we rely on now is respect - and I am not going to do something that would hurt Mrs Spoomonkey - and visa versa.

[WildMiCouple 325]

We've never had "rules" per se. Could be because we'd been together for over 20 years before we started playing. But we certainly have preferences, which have evolved as we've gained more experience.

 

As far as playing with others that have them.....hmmmm. Kinda funny as we've never discussed rules with others before playing. There's only one couple that we've played with that we knew had any (besides the usual safe sex one). And I found out after the fact. It was on the second trip to their house that Tammy mentioned that Sue told her that they didn't do oral with others. They saved that for themselves. I started to laugh as I had planned on tasting her that night. It had dawned on me shortly after the first time the previous month, that I hadn't enjoyed tasting her nor her me. I just thought that things had progressed a little differently than normal and she just cowgirled up quickly because she was just horny As I said, I hadn't really noticed til I had a chance to think about it.

 

Would we have played with that couple knowing that they didn't do oral? Probably.....but it may have taken some of the enjoyment out of it knowing it in advance.

 

Brett

[WesternSwing 504]

I'm not trying to bash those who have "rules" I just think that if you as a couple "need" rules to prevent one or the other from doing something that makes the other uncomfortable...that IS different from having rules. My statement was about needing them verses having them.

 

Now really if you haven't communicated your thoughts feelings and desires with your spouse enough prior to swinging.......you are not going into it fully aware of what may or may not happen. Likewise if you have that kind of communication where is the NEED, do you not trust your spouse to respect your feelings?

Thanks for clarifying that, because I to was taken aback by your first comment.

 

I think you have to really be open-minded about some rules. There are rules that are "needed", the reasons for such might not be apparent to the outsider. For instance, Mrs. WS really enjoys anal. I was the first man she'd ever done it with outside a forced situation. It wasn't until the last eight months she'd have it with a swing partner. Some might see this as insecurity on my part because she didn't want it with anyone but me. Exactly opposite. It was her gig. She was raped as a teenager and had real issues about anything up there for quite some time. She trusted me after many years together but strangers??? Nope. She has since overcome that, but to some that may have seemed like it was my issue.

 

There are some who's rules may seem excessive, and yes, they may be because of some insecurities, but with the exception of very few of us, I think we all entered the lifestyle not knowing exactly what to expect and thus waded in as opposed to diving in. I look back at our list of rules when we started and chuckle to myself. At the time they seemed "needed" though. We just try to remember that when we hear of rules from newbie couples.

 

We also will pass on some couples with too many rules, though. Although we have nothing against newbies, we definitely don't want to be the source of any aggrivation in their relationship. And if there are too many rules the chance of crossing the line on one of them is too great.

 

Mr. WS

[cuzzeyesaidso 31]

Our rules and boundaries are for the most part lessons learned rather than things we decided before hand. We have the common "safe sex only, no male/male sex, & no anal" rules, and even then we've bent one of those rules due to a little accident and the fact that we like fucking them so much.

 

We generally have the mindset that you can't know what you don't like unles you try it. Our experiments have taught us that a lot of things we thought we wouldn't really care forat first, we enjoy a lot. Like orgies for example.