Vanilla friends with relationship issues want to swing

[MoonLightKiss 28]

Alright, really gonna work hard at keeping this short, so wish me luck.

 

Last night, a vanilla couple, very good friends of ours who know we are swingers, brought up the subject of swinging. They wanted to know what swinging actually is, how do we meet couples, is it fun, yada yada yada. We were as honest with them as possible without revealing details into whom we had been with. We don't believe in kissing and telling.

 

Some background on their marriage. The wife had an affair and called it quits a couple of months ago. They separated for a couple of weeks and are currently involved in counseling with their pastor to work through it. They fight constantly, I am the one getting phone calls from her at 2 a.m. in regards to the fight they are currently having, and I get these calls at least three times a week.

 

They asked us if they should get into swinging. IMHO they have no business getting involved in the lifestyle, because their relationship isn't strong enough for this yet. Not to mention the fact that when I asked them why they were doing this her answer was, because she likes to have sex with other people because her husband isn't doing that much for her, and his answer was if they do this then he doesn't have to worry about her cheating. I quickly told them if that was their reasons they got no business doing this, because all they are going to do is bring their drama into other peoples lives. I also told them, that it was too soon in their marriage, especially considering it was already on the rocks. I also told them, that if they wanted to end up in divorce court, to go ahead with swinging at this point in their marriage. However, I also told them about this board, gave them the site, and told them to visit, look around and ask their questions here, because so many others have been doing this longer and have more experience and would probably be able to answer their questions better than I can.

 

Anyway my problem is this. Now they are mad at us because they think we are being hypocritical. Saying we are swingers, and how dare we discourage them from doing it. I tried to explain again, its not that I do or don't want them to, its that I care for both of them and don't want to see them do it this soon after so many problems.

 

Was I wrong about them not being ready? Should I have kept my mouth shut and just told them to come here, that I was too new to answer their questions?

[CuriousInOregon 16]

NO WAY I think you were 100% on the money how many times have we heard the seasoned Vets of this lifestyle express WHOLE HEARTEDLY not to get into this lifestyle to save a relationship? MORE times than I care to try and remember thank you, I think you were being a friend and said some good things. I guess if you want to salvage the friendship your best bet is to let them know that you will be there for them no matter what they chose to do BUT you want nothing to do with it from any standpoint other than a friend. Then your not really stuck in the middle. as far as the 2am calls go Turn off the ringer silly thats what we do hehehehe

[Drknow 47]

Perhaps they should try the open marriage course. It seems like they are on a path of destruction any way and probably would do less damage to another couple. If they don't have a change of heart I think they are doomed. Especially the way they jumped on you for giving them sound and concerned advice. Hope I am wrong, hang in there and don't be discouraged.

[Tantra 48]

Hate to be a pessimist, but those guys are probably going down in flames and if they ever get into the lifestyle before that, they'll probably leave some of their debris for a bunch of other people to clean up.

 

I'm crossing my fingers that your friends stay far far away from the lifestyle.

[The Fuse 1,012]

What you told them sounds like common sense to me. I'm sure that part of their reaction stems from simply being worked up about the idea of having sex with other people in a context that makes it okay. They see something that looks really good, and perhaps they aren't thinking clearly. Horniness has a pesky quality of doing that to people (at least to me). They apparently don't realize yet that if they are insecure in their relationship, having sex with others isn't going to help! Maybe you should ask the husband how he would feel if and when he saw his wife really enjoying having sex with another man, and vice versa for the lady. Maybe that image would help them realize what they are considering.

[starryeyes 23]

You are being a good friend and letting them know what is in store should they proceed while thier relationship is on thin ice. A good friend would tell them the truth, even when it hurts... they of course will make the final choice. They seem to be looking for that quick fix to problems that are deep rooted. The sad part is that by going into the lifestyle for the wrong reasons, others will become collateral damage.

We for one would not want to have any part in a break up/divorce, we would feel horrible.

 

Like Curious says "if you want to salvage the friendship your best bet is to let them know that you will be there for them no matter what they chose to do BUT you want nothing to do with it from any standpoint other than a friend. Then your not really stuck in the middle."

 

If and when they are back on terra firma and they are proceeding as a couple with with clear heads and with honest hearts, lots of communication, then they may be able to test the waters and see if it is for them.

 

We wish you well. We wish them well.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

Was I wrong about them not being ready? Should I have kept my mouth shut and just told them to come here, that I was too new to answer their questions?

 

You were right on to tell them the truth and what you thought about them getting into the lifestyle. You're all friends and they asked you for information and advice. Spoo and I talk about this all the time...people thinking it will fix a marriage that is already in crisis. We have seen enough, and that's not even as much as some have, to know that it takes a very strong and solid marriage to navigate through this lifestyle.

 

We always "debrief" as we call it after an encounter or even a night at the club...play or no play involved. We talk about the good stuff, the things we picked up on in conversations, things we saw that didn't involve us and how we felt about this or that. It gets us hot for each other on the way home reminds us that we are on the same page about everything and let's us enjoy the lifestyle together.

 

Your friends sound like they have a long way to go before they should think about anything other than building a stong marriage. One that has what they are obviously lacking...trust, communication, understanding, care for each others feelings and a united front.

 

Good luck and remember to stay out of the line of fire.

 

Mrs Spoomonkey

[MoonLightKiss 28]

Thank you all for your replies...I feel better knowing I did the right thing. I did call them last night and told them that I was sorry if something I said came across as judgemental, that its ultimately their decision, and that I am their friend and I support them, even when I cannot support their decisions. So hopefully this will all work out for the best.

[dayhiker 83]

moonlightkiss,

I casually knew a years ago taht verbally fought all the time. After a few years of hearing that they regularly fought, I started to wonder if they loved the verbal fighting? I personally hate it, so I have a really hard time understanding why people like it. Well, I can undestand it from a debating point of view. I love a good decussion.

What does the raised vioces have to add to the argument?

 

dayhiker

[Swing*8701 887]

Susan here--I had a friend going through marriage issues and called me every night to talk about the latest issues. It got old. I explained that she needed to get counselling, evenif she went alone because I could not really help. The calls kept coming. Then, each time I got called I'd ask,"Are you seeing a counselor ?" and if the answer was 'no', I'd hang up. After a week of that she got a counselor and got real help .

[Additude 457]

I think you were right in your reason but maybe wrong in your action.

 

Sure, if their marriage is in trouble by your observance and the reasons they gave you didn't quite fit your position on reasons to swing, then you, as a friend and confidant should relay your thoughts and feelings to them.

 

However, I think the action you should have taken was one that would explain a generic concern to their understanding only. Maybe referencing that many couples feel that as a prerequisit, anyone entering the lifestyle should have a strong and committed marriage. Keeping in mind that it was just information you were providing them to help them make their decision and not some advise and surly not persuasive advise.

 

You said they "Asked you if they should get into swinging". For me I don't think that is a question I would personally want to answer for any couple and I would say that right up front. I would have truly left out the, "I quickly told them if that was their reasons they got no business doing this", because that statement is just your judgement call. I think that statement is imposing.

 

If some couple wants to get into swinging, then that's their call. If they ask about it then keep it informative and respectful.

 

None of us know what's going on in another couples marriage or lives or what's in their heads and ways of thinking on the subject. For all that may be known, it's nothing but assumptions that swinging would further detriment their marriage. For all that is known, swinging could be the marraiges salvation, providing the wife her sexual outlet and the husband a certain amount of composure and trust.

 

I've seen marriages stay together for far more treacherous reasons such as money, family, children, abuse, etc.

 

I think you gave them good advise on references to this site. Give them references and allow them to investigate their own course. Leave your personal feelings out of it and you'll avoid the accusations and frictions.

 

With that in mind, I wouldn't allow you and your husband to have a swing experience with them unless at some time in the future it seems their marriage is progressing in a positive manner.

[EvilMJ 65]

I think you did the right thing 100%.

 

You told them about swinging, you told them why you didn't think it was for them. You told them you will be there for them what ever they decide.

 

There is no way they can come back to you when (and yes I mean when not if) things fall apart and blame you for not warning them about what was going to happen.

 

I think they should count themsevles fortunate to have such honest and caring friends.

[WesternSwing 504]

Was I wrong about them not being ready? Should I have kept my mouth shut and just told them to come here, that I was too new to answer their questions?

You answered exactly as I would have, and I hope they read this post, too. You were not being hypocritical, just brutally honest and they didn't like the answer.

 

Our favorite analogy of swinging is: Swinging is like a cake. The marriage is the cake and swinging is the frosting. If the ingredients are not in the cake to make it solid, all the frosting in the world is not going to keep it from falling falling apart.

 

They are considering swinging for the wrong reason, to avoid and thus "fix" in their own minds what is wrong in their marriage. All they're going to do is intensify those problems, and as you've pointed-out, bring unneccessary drama into other's lives, too.

 

They may have a hard time at it, also, unless they meet someone that is as inexperienced as they are. I think the veterns would see right through them within 30 minutes of meeting.

 

Mr. WS

[MoonLightKiss 28]

Susan here--I had a friend going through marriage issues and called me every night to talk about the latest issues. It got old. I explained that she needed to get counselling, evenif she went alone because I could not really help. The calls kept coming. Then, each time I got called I'd ask,"Are you seeing a counselor ?" and if the answer was 'no', I'd hang up. After a week of that she got a counselor and got real help .

 

Well, I took your advice, somewhat. I realized all the late night, early morning calls were not going to stop. And don't get me wrong, I love them both dearly, but lets get real, I am no proffesional, and while I am completely sympathetic to the situation they have gotten themselves into, I cannot fix them, and that is how they are coming across. "Give us the fix all cure all". I told her I would be happy to listen and let them vent if they needed, cause hey we all need to at some point but to please quit calling at 2 am. I have children, husband and life too. That 2pm would be adequate to come over for a cup of coffee and a bitch session about spouses.

 

She called. I saw caller id on my cell phone, and answered the phone just like hubby and I discussed. "Are you bleeding?" No, she replied. "Are you on the way to the hospital?" No again. "Are you on the streets?" No. "Any other type of emergency?" No, just the husband. "Call back in the morning."

 

She did, with a big apology. Its been a quiet couple of nights since. THANK YOU for the advice. Hopefully my sleep patterns will become normal again.

[Operator 15]

There is an old saying : "Swinging will not heal a bad relationship, but it will sure as hell don't kill a good marraige"

[sereneiders 263]

Moonlight,

 

I'd say you were right in you analysis, but also that you did a partial analysis here.

 

The questions it seems to me you didn't address was "why they're asking this question?" and "why they're asking US (specifically) this question?". That they know you're swingers isn't the proper answer, moreover, I'd say that what they think about why you're swingers was more relevant.

 

The reaction they had afterwards was against their own expectation on the outcome from asking you those questions. It seems to me those folks were in pain and wanted to move to some faster lante to get rid of the pain, as a desperate resource, as if they were expecting to be pushed into "swinging" (I quote the word because I am meaning what they understand swinging is about) by you two, who knows... get both a screw able to provide a relief.

 

What seems pretty obvious (after knowing the outcome, which is way easier than figuring this out beforehand) is that these guys made up their minds about using recreational sex as tool to deal with their pain way before this meeting with you, they look for someone able to ease the path to that tool, you were there as the obvious candidates, and they figured out that asking questions about swinging would be the proper way to reach their goal. When they found a wall (one perhaps more solid than the one their pastor/counselor would show them, but just because it was well grounded in the reality), they freaked out.

 

There's another problem here, and it is the way you two, presicelly because of being swingers, are being perceived by these guys, and the way they think your marriage is. It seems they extrapolated what happens to them today to what may be happening, or had happend before, to you two: that you two engage in swinging to run away of the pain in your marriage.

 

Perhpas this is the more concerning thing here, because this is fepriving you from a ground from where to throw them a piece of rope to help them come out from the water.

 

As an aside, I doubt of the hability a pastor may have to act as a counselor in this very case. This couple is thinking on their own on alternative ways to solve their problems, and because of the morals involved it is likely that they're deprived from the chance of discussing them with the pastor, and it is likely that the pastor wouldn't be able to avoid a prejudgamental attitude if they were bringing the subject. The fact is, they way they understand this lifestyle is pretty close to those prejudices, as to have a well grounded explanation on why this isn't a solution.

 

It is supposed that a counselor should help them to think about the problem and reach their own conclussions, and for this to be effective they should be able to take a look at every aspect of the problem and inspect every alternative they think of, with the counselour help to remain objective. So far it seems to me this counselor doesn't fit the requirements: they have a huge issue with their sexuality, and no one seems to be helping then being objective about this. They have a foolish attitude as a result of the desperation when meeting you, which tells me this counselour is failing to achieve his task.

[JnCC 24]

"Men get to China, both by the straights, and by the Cape"

 

Likewise, swinging. Ideally, a couple comes into this as a shared adventure. But sometimes, one or both partners just need a little more "novelty" in some facet of their life than any one person can possibly give them. When they decide that they're in the mood for something different, whether it's sex, romance, or intellectual stimulation, all the counseling in the world won't help them. They'll delibrately pick fights with their partner in order to justify (to themselves, at least) doing whatever it is they want to do.

 

If they're in therapy, they'll sabotage the process in any way they can. It's their unhappiness that justifies their affair with the other person.

 

For some people, knowing that being in a relationship doesn't have to mean "One pussy (or one dick) FOREVER" is what gives them the strength to commit to that relationship in the first place.

 

Sharing some of the details about your lifestyle with your friends may give them another perspective with which to approach their marriage. Just make sure they understand that this is something you do to enhance your marriage, not replace it.

[MissMaryPA 15]

Hi there....

 

I've been involved in similar situations several times in the past---meaning, trying to talk someone out of damaging their marriage because they're foolishly trying to bandage it with swinging or with an affair. And it IS foolish. Personally, I think you've done the ethical thing in providing the warnings and advice. Whether they take it or not---well, that's their decision and they are being irresponsible and judgmental in trying to abdicate some of the responsibility for that decision onto you.

 

I hope things worked out well for you and for your friends.

[MoonLightKiss 28]

Sharing some of the details about your lifestyle with your friends may give them another perspective with which to approach their marriage. Just make sure they understand that this is something you do to enhance your marriage, not replace it.

 

Thank you for your advice on this. When we were all talking about it the first night, I explained my view points on it, told them that they were only my personal opinions, and told them about this site, in the hopes that someone with more experience would be able to guide them better since I am still new to this.

 

They have not posted anything that I can see, although plenty of people lurk and perhaps that is what they are doing now. They refuse to go to counseling, and both of them are disagreeing over the lifestyle. She is determined to do it with or without him, while he refuses to do it. At this point I have bowed out gracefully and refuse to offer any opinions on it. I do not think it wise to be dragged into their problems, nor do I want to be forced to take sides. So I offer them coffee when one of them stops by, give them a shoulder to cry on, and when they ask me what they should do, I simply tell them, I can not answer that question for them, they must decide for themselves, although I do love them and will be there for them. I gave them the number to the counselor we used several years ago, and simply told them "in case its an option you want to pursue".

[JnCC 24]

Thank you for your advice on this. When we were all talking about it the first night, I explained my view points on it, told them that they were only my personal opinions, and told them about this site, in the hopes that someone with more experience would be able to guide them better since I am still new to this.

 

They have not posted anything that I can see, although plenty of people lurk and perhaps that is what they are doing now. They refuse to go to counseling, and both of them are disagreeing over the lifestyle. She is determined to do it with or without him, while he refuses to do it. At this point I have bowed out gracefully and refuse to offer any opinions on it. I do not think it wise to be dragged into their problems, nor do I want to be forced to take sides. So I offer them coffee when one of them stops by, give them a shoulder to cry on, and when they ask me what they should do, I simply tell them, I can not answer that question for them, they must decide for themselves, although I do love them and will be there for them. I gave them the number to the counselor we used several years ago, and simply told them "in case its an option you want to pursue".

It would be nice if simply becoming "swingers" would fix their problems, but unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. The path between "troubled marriage" and "successful swingers" doesn't lie in a straight line, it passes through a place called "trusting and committed relationship." If they start doing this now, they'll only bring their lack of trust and committment into the lifestyle with them, which as any experienced swinger knows, simply accelerates them along the path to ruin.

 

Have you ever seen one of those shows where they hijack some guys old car and rebuild it into a high-dollar hot-rod? Notice how the first thing they do after dismantling the entire car, is to repair the basic things that are wrong with it...rusted panels and floors, bent frames, stuff like that. Once that's done, THEN they start making all the "improvements" that make it a hot-rod...bigger engines, better suspension and brakes, fancy paint, etc.

 

The lifestyle is like that too. You have to have a solid foundation before you start this, or you're just wasting your time. It sounds like your friends don't have that foundation. When she says she's "doing this with or without him," she's drawing a line in the sand that she's hoping he won't cross. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if he does agree to do this with her, she'll draw another line in the sand. This time it will be to do this with people he doesn't approve of, or MFM only, or some such thing. This doesn't sound like a woman who's trying to reinvigorate her marriage, it sounds like a woman who's making a power-grab.

 

You're very wise not to take sides in this. I have a feeling (borne of some personal experience) that 6 months after they split, she'll be having second thoughts about their breakup, while he'll be having the time of his life. It's then that she'll need a friend like you...

[HappyPeople 17]

I believe the whole situation is their fowl... Asking a friend what you should do with your sex life and marriage is totally inappropriate because you're never going to like the answer no matter what it is.

 

People experiencing that much drama should hunker down and not draw others into thier vortex of madness. If a profession couselor is what they need, they should get it not try to seek free guidance from thier friends only to bash them for it.

 

I do not believe that there is advice you could have given without them thinking you shit for saying it.

[imsnowman 34]

Alright, really gonna work hard at keeping this short, so wish me luck.

 

Was I wrong about them not being ready? Should I have kept my mouth shut and just told them to come here, that I was too new to answer their questions?

 

Hopefully, they'll read these posts and not retaliate against yall somehow.