Loving your swinging partner?

[JohnUK1 15]

My partner felt she loved her swinging partner. He was the first guy she was with apart from me. On reflection she feels it was just lust and admits she does like the guy a lot. I don't mind that, and would expect that.

 

Have any of you ever fallen in love with your swinging friends or has your partner? Or even felt mildly in love? And if so, how has that affected your feelings towards them/relationship with him/her?

 

Just wondering if falling in love is a big no-no in swinging.

[Tybee Swing 286]

Hi John, There's no one way of thinking in swinging (so many styles, grey areas), but by-and-large, swingers usually keep emotional attachments out of it, or strive to. Otherwise, it's venturing off into something else - Polyamory.

 

Here was an excellent conversation I think you'd like to read - Emotional Attachments and how to handle them. This conversation delves into all the questions you asked.

 

Best wishes.

[good times 991]

Yes, it would be a big no-no for us and I think in swinging generally. When you incorporate love of a third partner (or more) then that becomes what is known as polyamory. Polyamory is a separate thing from swinging, although their are some polyamory people who are also swingers.

[JohnUK1 15]

Thanks for the link, Tybee Swing!

[sinsinbad 15]

Sorry, I am a little late with this advice, but one of the "rules" my wife and I had when swinging was if either one of us ever felt that the other one had strong feelings for someone we were swinging with, then we would just quit seeing that couple. We NEVER wanted to put our relationship in any danger.

[LFM2 1,482]

I've thought of this scenario a lot and what would happen if by chance, this might happen in our relationship.

 

It's been a LONG time since I've had a different partner. I think it's true for most women, at least for me, that you have to have some sort of feelings for you partner, even it's just friendship. I do believe that that friendship might go over a fine line and turn into more amorous feelings; especially if you see this person over and over again for friendship or for fun.

 

Falling in love for us would be a big no-no. If I felt I was having more than friendship feelings for my partner, I would first of all, tell my husband what I was feeling, and secondly, tell our partner that we'd have to quit for a while and take a much needed break.

 

I will not sacrifice my marriage for a threesome or moresome.

[Swing*8701 887]

Susan here--I have often felt emotions for the person I'm having sex with. I don't 'meet and mate' (well,one crazy weekend I did, but that's another story) so I have some type of relationship with the person. I simply know that these emotions are biochemical and psychological and not genuine, per se. I acknowledge them in my own mind, but realize it's part of the fantasy and that they're not to be indulged or acted on. I don't fight them or repress them either, I use them to enjoy the sex even more and that's using it in a positive way.

[Chicup 41]

Most of our playmates we have no real emotions for.

 

One set we have known and played with for 5 years now. I wouldn't call it Polyamory but its more than just friends. I think it would be more odd after 5 years of close friendship and sex if we didn't have some feelings for them. Its not love, if they leave there will be no broken hearts, but we will miss them more than any vanilla friends.

[sereneiders 263]

We've been there... and it was ok for us. Just that we both developed feelings towards the third one (and she corresponded). But as it was said, this actually was a polyamory relationship.

 

I believe this have to do with what do you feel able to threat your marriage. In our case, I cannot figure out of anything able to treat our marriage (but having a careless attitude ourselves, but that'd be another story).

[driveajeepnaked 26]

When we first entertained swinging, we signed up on SLS and went to a few Meet n Greets that were always hosted by the same two couples. They were all very hospitable and it was evident that they were a 'foursome'. Their children all knew each other, etc...

 

About 6 months later, their SLS profiles both posted a"No Longer Looking" tag line, and come to find out, they had permanently swapped partners in 'real life'.

[WesternSwing 504]

I think many view falling in love with a playmate as a no-no in swinging, but that is mostly because swinging differs from polyamory in the amount of affection felt for your partner(s). I feel also that when stronger emotions come into play you have now crossed the line into a polyamorous relationship.

 

This has happened with us. Mrs. WS got attached to the first couple we swung with, and I feel this had allot to do with her conservative upbringing and the need to not feel dirty and slutty for having and enjoying sex outside of her marriage. This soon faded away though.

 

Although about a year ago we started swinging with a single male that she did fall for. They carried-on for several months but he eventually fell for the wife of friends of ours and they have had an openly polyamorous relationship since about December. It has worked well for them. The break-up for my wife was really hard on her. She was crushed well because... she was dumped. And she felt she shouldn't have felt that way and the guilt of that even made the break-up worse.

 

How did it effect me? At first I was a titch jealous, but as the relationship continued and I fully realized she wasn't going to leave me for him, and he was making her happy in this part of her life that she needed fulfillment in at that time, I became comfortable with it. I was friends with him also and we would go out as a threesome and play that way sometimes or sometimes she would see him alone. It was all very open and above-board. We are still friends with him, we just don't play with him anymore.

 

So, yes it can happen, and it can work. It just really depends on the people involved, and everybody is different.

[DBL D 120]

WesternSwing said:

...and I feel this had allot to do with her conservative upbringing and the need to not feel dirty and slutty for having and enjoying sex outside of her marriage. This soon faded away though...

 

How long did it take, Mr WS (or Mrs. WS?) I feel my wife's conservative upbringing has something to do with her reluctance to fully embrace the lifestyle. It also may have something to do with her mother's behavior when she was younger. It may mostly have something to do with her feeling that what she's doing is wrong. When I hear her say that, I just freeze and realize that this won't work, and I tell her that, but then she says she wants to continue on. When she says she liked a guy she was with in the past, I'm overjoyed. I honestly expect that she will (and I will) like a person a lot...hopefully more than one. I really hate to fuck someone and know that it was just a fuck. I think it's natural to expect that some feelings will be there...why else would you want to see someone again?

 

Regardless, I am trying to go with the flow...

[WesternSwing 504]

How long did it take, Mr WS (or Mrs. WS?)

We were married for six years before we started swinging. I didn't have the conservative upbringing she did and thus I've always had a very liberal ideal of sex. Over the six years Mrs. WS became more and more daring and open and started to shed alot of that conservative guilt that her mother had openly placed on her about her body and sex. So when the time came that we decided to take the plunge it was more growth for her. It was kind of the natural progression I guess. It got to the point where she wanted to experiment with her bi-side. The experiences I've related above weren't even on the radar scope at the time, but happened.

 

She still fights with some guilt every now and then, but for the most part has really put most of it behind her. I'm glad. Everything she is doing, and has done, is wonderful. I have relished and rejoiced in her growth as a whole woman.

 

Mr. WS

[sereneiders 263]

DBL D said:

I honestly expect that she will (and I will) like a person a lot...hopefully more than one. I really hate to fuck someone and know that it was just a fuck. I think it's natural to expect that some feelings will be there...why else would you want to see someone again?

 

Regardless, I am trying to go with the flow...

 

I wholly agree with you.

 

I believe we bump against a "naming convention" here. We all develop feelings towards the people we have around, but from what I've seen among swingers (and not only in this board), the word "love" it's what seems to be forbidden and not the feelings themselves.

 

Of course, there are people who as soon as they recognize certain feelings they stop playing as a preventive measure. It is ok, but sometimes I wonder what could happen if they explore those feelings. I am pretty sure that a solid marriage wouldn't be at risk because of this. In the other hand, I understand that since we look for having fun, such an exploration would be "off topic", so... why you'd try?

 

We have this couple we use to play with, they become great friends of us besides the sex. They have this approach where they dislike feelings involved, while we're open to explore our feelings as well. Some time ago I was talking with the female half of them about our friendship, and I told her "I know this may freak you out, but guys, we love you two". She gave me her hesitation look and I told her "well... we're great friends, some of us may not want to have sex anymore but I would like to have you as vanilla friends anyway, so the sex, even when great, is accessory, we both trust you two, and I cannot figure out a reason for our friendship to break apart, since whatever may happen, we all feel confident enough as to talk about it. I know the word love is freaking, but please, explain to me why it wouldn't fit".

 

I know several members could say "ok, dude, that's great but it isn't love", they can bring me arguments to support this, but I believe that, ultimately, those arguments would be grounded in subtle definitions that are there just to prove the word doesn't fit.

 

Perhaps the problem is that in our culture we're not supposed to talk too much about feelings. Since we're supposed to develop certain feelings only with our spouse and closest relatives, we're not supposed to have other feelings stronger enough as to develop a language useful to tell apart one strong feeling from another. It's like traveling in time to the Middle Age in Europe, where sex was so forbidden than you had very few words to describe a sexual relationship: you cannot talk about a clitoris, nor a vaginal orgasm, nor about technics for giving oral sex, just because you lack the vocabulary to make yourself understand.

 

But we're swingers, today, and we engage in relationships that wasn't supposed to happen. We develop levels of intimacy with others that were supposed to be reserved to our spouses, and it's natural that there will be some feelings involved. However, we're in the Middle Age of swinging, and we still accept the vanilla vocabulary and stick to the vanilla language, thus finding ourselves forced to tell apart shades of colors by claiming they're white or black.

 

Perhaps if we were having more words to describe the shades of love, it would be way more easy to deal with those issues.

[WesternSwing 504]

Great post sereneiders.

 

I've said before that some swingers are poly, and some poly are swingers, but not all swingers are poly and not all polys are swinger. We see this often. Being we're "poly-friendly" we have been accepted into the poly community here and go to many poly events like pot lucks and movie nights, etc. Of course it helps that two of Mrs. WS high school friends are both poly.

 

We do see that some polys when not involved in a poly relationship tend to swing, but not all. These same couples when involved in a poly relationship do not swing.

 

What you don't see a whole lot of is swingers in poly relationships. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said:

 

Quote

Perhaps the problem is that in our culture we're not supposed to talk too much about feelings. Since we're supposed to develop certain feelings only with our spouse and closest relatives, we're not supposed to have other feelings stronger enough as to develop a language useful to tell apart one strong feeling from another.

 

Society and conventionality have molded us into thinking that we are not supposed to love anyone but our spouse. Hell, many think you are not supposed to lust anyone but your SO.

 

I think you were also spot-on with:

 

Quote

Of course, there are people who as soon as they recognize certain feelings they stop playing as a preventive measure. It is ok, but sometimes I wonder what could happen if they explore those feelings. I am pretty sure that a solid marriage wouldn't be at risk because of this.

 

It is really exploring uncharted waters, but in our case, it has been a very worthwhile journey. Although Mrs. WS and I have a great marriage, I have seen the positive effects being loved by, and loving more than just one has had on her. This other person provided something to her that I couldn't at the time, but not everything I can (make sense?). He filled a role in her life that she needed at that time. She was very, very, very happy during this period. Her being that happy made me very happy and made me feel really good about myself that I was a big party of this happiness. It is a journey of the ego-self to the Higher Self-Self. It was as much a growth experience for me as it was for her.

 

And you know what? It has made our marriage even stronger than just swinging has. I would encourage Mrs. WS to seek such a relationship again.

 

I know that within the swinger lifestyle poly relationships are looked upon with great skepticism, but I think that it is because some don't understand the whole dynamics of it. Like swinging, it isn't for everyone.

[Chicup 41]

While being poly/semi-poly could be great, I think this thread may well be a 'turn-off' thread for new swingers.

 

It seems one of the big fears of swingers is having their spouse fall in love with their swing partner. For us, and I think most swingers, we have separated the 'love' from sex. Casual sex is just that, casual, the emotional attachment/guilt issue has been removed from the equation and that needs to be stressed.

 

One of the best parts of swinging, at least for us, was finding out that our relationship was not based on a foundation of sex, we love each other more than ever because of this.

[sereneiders 263]

Chicup said:

While being poly/semi-poly could be great, I think this thread may well be a 'turn off' thread for new swingers.

 

It seems one of the big fears of swingers is having their spouse fall in love with their swing partner. For us, and I think most swingers, we have separated the 'love' from sex. Casual sex is just that, casual, the emotional attachment/guilt issue has been removed from the equation and that needs to be stressed.

 

One of the best parts of swinging, at least for us, was finding out that our relationship was not based on a foundation of sex, we love each other more than ever because of this.

 

I agree with you.

 

The fact is, feelings are involved, and we have to learn to deal with them, either by means of rules preventing them to develop, or by means of analyzing those feelings to understand and isolate the threats we fear.

 

Some singers, like myself, are poly-friendly (and as WesternSwing said, some poly aren't swinger-friendly). It's just another flavor of swinging, as there are swingers who kiss partners and swingers who doesn't.

 

Now, if you believe we shouldn't discuss this flavor here, I'd have to ask you where we'd supposed to do it, and moreover, which other flavors that don't fit your tastes shouldn't be discussed here as well.

 

Anyway, as far as I know, it isn't the forum purpose to advocate for swinging nor to make propaganda, but to discuss the swingers issues. This IS a swinger issue, those new swingers will have to choose how to deal with feelings. For those not wanting to deny the feelings, or those who actually believe it isn't that easy to avoid them, not finding our "poly-friendly" opinions in the forum, bot only the "poly-unfriendly" opinions, would do more harm that good (unless you actually want them to NOT swing based on those fears just to minimize the chance of bumping against them in a bed).

 

In any case, I find your posts very consistent: for some topics you dislike the idea of discussing in deep, and I wonder if this isn't because you have your own structures that you are comfortable with and you don't want anyone to challenge them. I can even correlate this post with other discussions we had before, and it is interesting the way you advocate for letting us be lead by our fears and the stereotypes instead of broaden our sight to be able to understand before reaching to a conclusion.

 

You have your own recipe on how to deal with the "feelings" issue, it is enough for you and it is ok. But then you believe that it should be enough for everyone around, that "new swingers" wouldn't be able to deal with the issue in any other ways than yours, that if the poly idea is a "turn off" for you, it must be a "turn off" for others as well. Even the words you choose, a "turn off", equalize rejection with indifference (i.e., for some the feelings development could be just something unwanted without leading them to rejection of swinging because of the risk), so you end up purposing me to shut up and keep the new swingers in the dark about other ways to deal with feelings.

 

I don't remember who's the member whose signature say something like "fears are the illness, knowledge is the cure".

 

Let's avoid "protecting" new swingers by hiding information. Let's give them more credit, after all they're adults as well, and who knows? They may be even brighter than us two and some of them could give us a better insight for those things that we suppose to "know better" than them.

[Chicup 41]

sereneiders said:

Now, if you believe we shouldn't discuss this flavor here, I'd have to ask you where we'd supposed to do it, and moreover, which other flavors that don't fit your tastes shouldn't be discussed here as well.

 

Not a lot of time to get into this right now, being I'm at work, but just a quick note would be you assume a bit to much into the motivation of my posting. It wasn't that you shouldn't discuss it, in fact its a good discussion, but that new people reading this shouldn't assume that most swingers are open to a poly relationship, or that it is a common development in swinging. We have 100's of lurkers, and really only a handful of active posters. I think this gives a somewhat skewed version of what swinging is/can be.

[sereneiders 263]

Chicup said:

Not a lot of time to get into this right now, being I'm at work, but just a quick note would be you assume a bit to much into the motivation of my posting. It wasn't that you shouldn't discuss it, in fact its a good discussion, but that new people reading this shouldn't assume that most swingers are open to a poly relationship, or that it is a common development in swinging. We have 100's of lurkers, and really only a handful of active posters. I think this gives a somewhat skewed version of what swinging is/can be.

 

Ok. I agree, this may confuse someone on what's swinging about, so:

 

For the record:

 

SWINGING DOESN'T IMPLY A POLYAMORAL RELATIONSHIP.

 

Most swingers doesn't want to get emotionally involved with their playmates, and this is the norm among swingers.

 

Very few swingers would allow to get emotionally involved with their partners, and some of those very few would even pursue this. However, since they're aware that this isn't the norm, they would AVOID getting emotionally involved with other swingers who stick to the norm.

 

 

Now, you'd agree with me the later sentence deserve to be there. Those swingers who are poly-friendly wouldn't pursuit to get emotionally involved with non poly-friendly swingers, the same way that swingers wouldn't pursue it to get into the bed of vanilla marriages. Thinking the opposite, in both cases, would be a prejudice.

 

In any case, the 100's of lurkers around the board may get to read some posts where the odds of swinging bring to surface. If they were up to stick to the first thing they read, then it's very likely that swinging isn't for them anyway. Otherwise the forum administrators should have to add clarifying posts in every thread, "for the record". The fact is, the lurker who's really curious about swinging would have to gather a lot of information before making up his/her mind, and the forum have plenty of opinions posted as for them to understand what's swinging about, and they have the chance to post a question asking us to clarify their doubts.

 

I am not a swinging advocator. I already said "swinging isn't for you" in many lurkers' posts. Lurkers deserve to get to know all and every issue more experienced swingers have, and if they're curious about swinging, they have a lot of homework to do. Let's them do it.

[DBL D 120]

We were married for six years before we started swinging. I didn't have the conservative upbringing she did and thus I've always had a very liberal ideal of sex. Over the six years Mrs. WS became more and more daring and open and started to shed allot of that conservative guilt that her mother had openly placed on her about her body and sex. So when the time came that we decided to take the plunge it was more growth for her. It was kind of the natural progression I guess. It got to the point where she wanted to expirement with her bi-side. The experiences I've related above weren't even on the radar scope at the time, but happened.

 

She still fights with some guilt every now and then, but for the most part has really put most of it behind her. I'm glad. Everything she is doing, and has done, is wonderful. I have relished and rejoiced in her growth as a whole woman.

 

Mr. WS

 

Thank you Mr. WS, but what I was asking was how long it took after you started swinging before she became comfortable with the idea?

 

I'm not intending to hijack the thread but I think the problems are somehow related to each other. I don't mean that I expect Fem D to have to fall in love with someone in order to really feel comfortable with them, just as I wouldn't say that I couldn't do a one night stand. I just like it more when I know that the lady really likes how I treated her and wants to see me again. I just say that if you want to see someone in particular again that indicates a level of feelings. Not love...but strong desire. We all know how many different ways there are to love a person(s), and now we all know there are even more ways to do it! (after we have swung for a bit.) I just don't see a problem with being into another couple.

 

 

There have ben a few couples who have contacted us who admit that they are looking for a LTR...to me that means that feelings will develop. We say that we want to become friends with couples. We have found out just what that means to different couples. The bottom line is that if you aren't comfortable with any of it you shouldn't do it. I don't think that this should scare away beginners. It tells them what to expect and how to deal with it when it happens. You can find all kinds of swinger/polys out there. It still doesn't meant that you are a match just because of the similarity of that in your profile.

 

Male D

[Mike and Jan 20]

Man! We humans sure have a difficult time the the 'love' word!

 

I equate love to be that devotion and commitment to someone. The feeling you also have for kids or even pets.

 

But, when we meet someone that turns us on and then also like them as a person we sometimes think we love them.

 

We can enjoy someone's company, enjoy tremendously having a sexual relationship with them, and even enjoy a long time intimacy without loving them.

 

I'm the type who doesn't like to have sex with someone I don't know at all. Been there, done that, and didn't find it anymore rewarding than masturbating.

 

And for swinging partners the folks you really know will make it less likely for anyone to feel threatened or jealous. You know the other couple has a great relationship and respect it. They know you do too and respect yours. But you know that there's an attraction for each others spouses too and can enjoy it.

 

You like this other spouse. You enjoy being with them, flirting, touching, and making love. But you don't want to live the rest of your life with them as man and wife. You're making love, not in love.

[Tybee Swing 286]

I believe we bump against a "naming convention" here. We all develop feelings towards the people we have around, but from what I've seen among swingers (and not only in this board), the word "love" it's what seems to be forbidden and not the feelings themselves.

 

Hi sereneiders, I disagree that it's just the "L word" that's avoided by many swingers and not the feelings, themselves. Many of us just do not want the emotional attachments beyond being buddies with other couples. We want the romantic/emotional attachment to be reserved for our mates, only. We have physical sex with others just for fun, recreationaly. It's just a shared activity, like vanilla friend's shared activities. Many people, including women, can separate love and sex with no problem. I feel that this should be respected by those who DO like the love feelings with their swing partners and prefer that.

 

We have this couple we use to play with, they become great friends of us besides the sex. They have this approach where they dislike feelings involved, while we're open to explore our feelings as well. Some time ago I was talking with the female half of them about our friendship, and I told her "I know this may freak you out, but guys, we love you two". She gave me her hesitation look and I told her "well... we're great friends, some of us may not want to have sex anymore but I would like to have you as vanilla friends anyway, so the sex, even when great, is accessory, we both trust you two, and I cannot figure out a reason for our friendship to break apart, since whatever may happen, we all feel confident enough as to talk about it. I know the word love is freaking, but please, explain to me why it wouldn't fit".

 

If they don't want to share emotional attachments outside of their relationship, shouldn't you respect their wishes? People who feel like this can become friends with other couples on an ongoing basis, but still not want this level of attachment and "love".

 

You're "open to explore your feelings" in your relationship, you said. That's great, but it seems like if you impose that on a couple who doesn't want to do that, it's not fair to them. To me, it would be about the same as trying to cross some other boundary they may have, and they have both agreed between themselves that they don't go there.

 

Just my thoughts.

[sereneiders 263]

Hi sereneiders, I disagree that it's just the "L word" that's avoided by many swingers and not the feelings, themselves. Many of us just do not want the emotional attachments beyond being buddies with other couples. We want the romantic/emotional attachment to be reserved for our mates, only. We have physical sex with others just for fun, recreationally. It's just a shared activity, like vanilla friend's shared activities. Many people, including women, can separate love and sex with no problem. I feel that this should be respected by those who DO like the love feelings with their swing partners and prefer that.

 

It seems to me that either you got this the wrong way, or I failed to properly express my thoughts (perhaps because of the language barrier, since English isn't my own language and some times I have a hard time to express some ideas).

 

What I am saying is, besides that for you it's not desirable to develop feelings, it is something that MAY happen anyway, because feelings are beyond our control. At most, you'd develop rules and pay attention to warning signs to trigger those rules, as to stop the ball and prevent those feelings to further evolve.

 

And of course, this is less likely to happen if you share just one night (something that we do, too), that if you keep seeing your playmates, thus increasing the chances of develop feelings.

 

Even for those who separate sex from love (and indeed, I believe that those are two unrelated things), they require a minimal degree of attraction, of "chemics", before having sex with someone. The way you feature such an attraction, and what constitutes such a "minimal degree" changes from person to person.

 

The point is, that attraction is constituted by feelings as well. But we're not skilled enough to talk about feelings as to tell apart the subtle differences those feelings may have in every case, because we lack a vocabulary to express ourselves, we're forced to choose from a few words to NAME those feelings, in a discrete scale going from "no feelings" at one end, and "love" at the other. And since those feelings are way more close to the "no feelings" end than to the "love" end, we end up saying "we have no feelings", or at most, attempting to NAME them with the "chemics" euphemism.

 

Now, if you agree with me so far, and since (as you said) what constitutes such a minimal degree of attraction varies from person to person, there are cases where the minimal is "shifted" in a linear scale: some people require "friendship" feelings (somewhere in between the "no feelings" and "love"), some require "intimacy"... and those words are the ones turning the linear scale into a discrete one. In the other hand, in everyone scale the distance between two points, let say "friendship" and "love", also varies. For some it's shorter, for others it's longer. Moreover, what may constitute "friendship" from one guy, couldn't be "friendship" for another.

 

Ultimately we require to develop a minimal set of feelings, and some of us require to prevent those feelings to evolve, thus holding them below a threshold in this scale, and we're barely able (if able at all) to draw the lines and put the numbers on them for the ruler we're trying to use.

 

So when we pretend to be too strict about all of this, I believe we're fooling ourselves, and it seems to me we do this in an attempt to preserve ourselves from the uncertainty the lack of vocabulary give to us: we say communication is the key factor as to be able to successfully swing, so when we're lead into a topic where the language limitation renders us useless to properly communicate, we choose to become conservative, if not to deny the whole problem existence.

 

It's not merely the "L word" as it if were a forbidden one, I said "naming convention" because, as opposed as it happens to sex related terms, we lack of a convention to clearly talk about our feelings. This includes, but it isn't limited to, the "L word".

 

In any case, being aware of this doesn't mean I am "praying" my truth to every swinger couple we bump into. The fact is, we accept this and try to respect the scale they have the best we do to help them preserve their relationship (as all of us are supposed to do with any limit we express). I only talk about this when it fits, as it happens here. My wife wouldn't even try: she's more skeptic and she would say the whole discussion is pointless and prone to being get the wrong way (and so far, she seems to be right).

 

If they don't want to share emotional attachments outside of their relationship, shouldn't you respect their wishes? People who feel like this can become friends with other couples on an ongoing basis, but still not want this level of attachment and "love".

 

You're "open to explore your feelings" in your relationship, you said. That's great, but it seems like if you impose that on a couple who doesn't want to do that, it's not fair to them. To me, it would be about the same as trying to cross some other boundary they may have, and they have both agreed between themselves that they don't go there.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Wait a moment! I didn't imposed anything to anyone! I just talked about my feelings with them... and they didn't run away!

 

Let's rewind the tape here. This couple was one of the couples we learned the most of what we know about the lifestyle. They know us since we approached the lifestyle, and we ask them a lot of questions before choosing to give this a try. They were the ones who advised us to avoid developing feelings, and even by then, we were aware that the whole thing wasn't "clear enough" for us (which later on evolved into out "naming convention" theory ).

 

Our relationship evolved naturally into a friendship: we didn't pursued this, nor required this friendship to have sex with them (we don't even remember the name of most of the people we had sex with). In fact, by the time we had sex with them, we didn't imagine the relationship would evolve this far. It just happened.

 

We developed enough confidence as to openly discuss many aspects of the lifestyle and of our personal lives and feelings. In this context, this subject bring up again as a chat topic, we explained our point of view to them, and one time I talked about my feelings towards them as to provide an example of what I meant.

 

In any case, we're not asking for "reciprocity", but this is because we feel that, besides the words, the reciprocity we expect from the friendship is already there. In any case, this isn't different than what happens inside our marriage: we don't ask "reciprocity" from each other, we just enjoy what each one have to offer to the other, and we found out over and over the reciprocity is already there.

 

In our marriage, we're EXTREMELY respectful towards each other feelings, limits, privacy, time, and so on, we don't need, nor ask for, our spouse permission to do something, because we know where the limits are, and we know and are up to talk, learn and forgive is some of us make a mistake (since we agree in this viewpoint, any mistake is, by definition, a shared mistake: the mistake from one of us, and the mistake from the other when not making explicit beforehand the expectations). We're aware that we're deemed by the language to commit flaws with the words, and we care more about the actions, what people does along history besides what they actually say, and our history is full of actions fulfilling enough as to prove us about each other good will.

 

The only we do is to stick to the same attitude towards the people we have around us. If their actions prove us they care about us, they deserve the feelings we develop towards them. And our reciprocity comes from our actions: once knowing what may harm someone, we'd do our best to avoid doing it. We don't care to much to define our feelings, nor to compare them against the feelings we have towards other people, including our spouse, mostly because it'd be a pointless waste of time. It's just that we're convinced that the question "who you love the most, daddy or mommy?" is not a valid question (much like a Gödel's incompleteness theorem).

 

This is what happens in this case: as for them, besides all the theoretical discussions, they appreciate us for our actions and for our respectful attitude. I told what I told just because I was sure it was ok to be told, if I were not sure, I wouldn't open my mouth.

 

So your claim that I am trying to "impose" something to this couple is way off grounds here.

 

I wouldn't even dare to "impose" anything to my own wife, not even those things that I am supposed to have "the right" to impose to her, as to suppose I'd do this to someone else.

[Tybee Swing 286]

So your claim that I am trying to "impose" something to this couple is way off grounds here.

 

I'll explain what I saw in that post that made me feel that your statements may have been an imposition:

 

"They have this approach where they dislike feelings involved" - they had shared with you this boundary they had, so you knew how they felt about it.

 

"Some time ago I was talking with the female half of them about our friendship, and I told her "I know this may freak you out, but guys, we love you two". She gave me her hestation look.." -- I'm pretty sure that's hesitation, right? She was taken aback? Uncomfortable?

 

And part of what you told her was -- "I know the word love is freaking, but please, explain to me why it wouldn't fit". That sounded a bit argumentative, as if you were trying to convince her that the love feelings should be acceptable, and she should have to answer to you why not.

 

That's all. I'm not really claiming anything, because I don't know your whole relationship, I only know what was typed. I was relating to how I would feel in that situation, if we had friends that had a different set of standards on the emotional attachment issue, and even after knowing ours, the husband still was promoting their view. I might feel that our wishes were being disrespected or brushed off. If the other couple wouldn't accept our particular brand of swinging and withhold their feelings, we might be prone to break it off with them.

 

I'm not arguing with you about your right to have feelings. Just sharing how many of us might feel in the same circumstances. Peace.

[sereneiders 263]

I'll explain what I saw in that post that made me feel that your statements may have been an imposition:

 

"They have this approach where they dislike feelings involved" - they had shared with you this boundary they had, so you knew how they felt about it.

 

"Some time ago I was talking with the female half of them about our friendship, and I told her "I know this may freak you out, but guys, we love you two". She gave me her hestation look.." -- I'm pretty sure that's hesitation, right? She was taken aback? Uncomfortable?

 

And part of what you told her was -- "I know the word love is freaking, but please, explain to me why it wouldn't fit". That sounded a bit argumentative, as if you were trying to convince her that the love feelings should be acceptable, and she should have to answer to you why not.

 

That's all. I'm not really claiming anything, because I don't know your whole relationship, I only know what was typed. I was relating to how I would feel in that situation, if we had friends that had a different set of standards on the emotional attachment issue, and even after knowing ours, the husband still was promoting their view. I might feel that our wishes were being disrespected or brushed off. If the other couple wouldn't accept our particular brand of swinging and withhold their feelings, we might be prone to break it off with them.

 

I'm not arguing with you about your right to have feelings. Just sharing how many of us might feel in the same circumstances. Peace.

 

Ok. I see your point. The question would be, at which point talking about a subject, discussing a point of view, become an imposition.

 

I agree, I was argumentative, as I am being argumentative here. If I am asked to know what I think or believe, or if someone challenge it, I will expose it and be argumentative, because it's the way we discuss.

 

Let's suppose I was having sex with this woman and whispered "i love you" in her ear, and THEN, that I said what I said. In this scenario I would be the first one saying I am being "argumentative" to impose my point of view.

 

But this didn't happen, nor it will happen. I just was argumentative with people who like to discuss about lifestyle issues and are themselves as argumentative as I am to show they point of view. I didn't break any rule, nor a request from them to avoid discussing the subject. This could be just my belief, but the fact is, none of them felt I break a rule nor that I passed over any limit when telling this. Moreover, they asked to know and understand our position with all of this, I mean questions like "how can you have a girlfriend, develop feelings and avoid this being disrupting for you two?", so the topic was fit.

 

Do you believe I shouldn't talk about something like this, just because by just talking about this someone would feel pushed? If so, then you'd agree with Chicup, I shouldn't even bring the subject here.

 

About the precise wording I used, I'll ask you to bare in mind that English isn't my born language. In your born language you're able to make a lot of second readings over a sentence, and to pick the way to say something to ensure there are second readings that will be understood (you know the same thing can be told in different ways, let say, being careful about something or being careless). I can do the same in Spanish, but not in English. I cannot translate to English what I said the same way I said it in Spanish, just because I am unaware of certain second readings like the ones you're doing here in English. I am pretty sure that you found out something from what I wrote that leads you reasonably to conclude my intentions, but I am unaware of those things you found until someone tells me.

[JnC05 15]

The love that we have for our swinging partners is such a different kind of love although we lust for them. It could never compare to the love we have for one another... the love within our hearts. But I do see it is quite common to have strong feelings for a swing partner. It is quite simple when you reflect on the situation... the things that you shared, the time that you had. You will most definitely have a special bond with that person and it is quite alright to offer them a piece of your heart.

[Tybee Swing 286]

The question would be, at which point talking about a subject, discussing a point of view, become an imposition.

 

Do you believe I shouldn't talk about something like this, just because by just talking about this someone would feel pushed?

 

I'll explain how I would feel if I were in a similar situation. If my husband and I met a couple, and in the early stages of talking a lot about all of our likes and dislikes with them (as we all do) we discovered this difference between our styles, we'd express to them what our feelings are so that they would know what line not to cross. This is the time to talk about and "debate" all the differences. They would know this difference, so that they could choose to respect our boundaries, or if they didn't want that boundary, they could choose to not be involved with us and find somebody more suited to their taste.

 

So, if after quite some time of being together, everybody knowing the others' feelings, and then they decided to promote their love agenda after all that time of knowing how we feel, then I would feel pushed, because we had talked about this early on and they knew where we stood. We weren't open for negotiation, and we weren't looking to be persuaded otherwise.

 

I'm not saying that's how your couple felt, just sharing how we'd feel.

 

It's like any other boundary a couple may have. I'll use anal for example, because many couples, as a preference (not insecurity), choose not to engage in anal with swing partners. Maybe they think anal is very intimate and personal, and they don't want to share that particular act with others. If they state this up front, and then much later into a relationship with a couple the other couple starts saying that "we're open to anal", and "give me a reason why not", and arguing their case for anal with me, that's an imposition. They already knew where we stood. We were clear.

 

Likewise, many couples don't want to share love/attachment/romantic feelings with others, not out of insecurity, but because they think it's very intimate and personal, and don't want to share that particular aspect with others. I feel it should be respected, just like any other preference they may have.

 

I'm not saying that love feelings, or polyamory, are wrong. It's very right for some people. I know some people in these relationships who are very happy. Those people find each other, all are in agreement, and that's great.

[sereneiders 263]

I'll explain how I would feel if I were in a similar situation. If my husband and I met a couple, and in the early stages of talking a lot about all of our likes and dislikes with them (as we all do) we discovered this difference between our styles, we'd express to them what our feelings are so that they would know what line not to cross. This is the time to talk about and "debate" all the differences. They would know this difference, so that they could choose to respect our boundaries, or if they didn't want that boundary, they could choose to not be involved with us and find somebody more suited to their taste.

 

So, if after quite some time of being together, everybody knowing the others' feelings, and then they decided to promote their love agenda after all that time of knowing how we feel, then I would feel pushed, because we had talked about this early on and they knew where we stood. We weren't open for negotiation, and we weren't looking to be persuaded otherwise.

 

I'm not saying that's how your couple felt, just sharing how we'd feel.

 

I understand this. Now, I'd like you to understand that we wouldn't have the same conversations we had with them, with you two, because in your case it is a hard limit.

 

In the other hand, the outcome of the conversation we had with them isn't one that changed the way we relate with each other. It isn't that I said "do you see my point?", and once they said "yes", I took advantages to "redefine" our relationship as a polyamoral one or supposed I earned the right to behave in a different way because of this.

 

We discussed this because THEY wanted after knowing we had a polyamoral relationship. They asked to know where we were standing as a couple as to be able to be open to the feelings, they were granted the right to opinionate on things pertaining to our marriage relationship, as to be able to have this discussion, and the more important, it was just a theoretical discussion, much like the one we're having here. Besides this, the friendship among the four of us evolved, and I correlated our feelings as friends to show them our point of view. And anything changes since that: we keep being friends, from time to time we have sex, they have sex with other people and we do the same.

 

I don't know if you'd be up to have this sort of relationship, I mean, where you may have a small talk by phone with the other couple husband without your husband being there nor even being aware you had it, where you can go out shopping with the other couple wife, your husband hang out with the other guy to take a look at potential partners profiles for one or both the couples, or the other husband can call you to ask you if everything is fine between you two just because he had the impression that something happened between you two. Then if YOU KNEW beforehand the other couple was up to a poly relationship (not with you two, but with other people), if you talk with them because you've seen them have a polyamoral relationship and since you care about them, YOU start discussing the subject as to understand them (and to understand where you're standing for this people, how they see you, and if this could be jeopardizing the limits you stated before), and the other couple talks about this, and provide you an example (the same I gave), this hardly could be seen as "being pushed" nor talked into "a polyamoral relationship".

 

If you forget about swinging, this is the typical vanilla friendship relationship between two couples, just that we talk swinging as we could be talking tennis. And it isn't something where we're together all day long. We talk with them two or three times a week, see each other one way or another a couple of times a month, have sex perhaps once every two or three months. It'd hardly qualify as a "polyamoral relationship", and even more, it isn't a polyamoral relationship for us, compared against, let say, practically living under the same roof with a girlfriend for almost a year, sleeping the three of us in the same bed every night, as happened to us, which for me qualifies as a poly relationship.

 

BTW, this girlfriend had played with us and other swingers, but it wasn't "required", it happened that we played with other people without her, and that she played with other people without us, so we didn't even imposed our polyamoral relationship with this girlfriend to other swingers, most of them wasn't even aware of it, nor about us being "poly-friendly". We're not going around claiming we're "poly friendly" between swingers, the same way we're not going around claiming we're swingers between vanilla people. If someone asks, we'd ponder and eventually tell them.

 

So, I am pretty sure that if we meet a couple like yours, something like this wouldn't ever happen.

 

Somehow I feel I am defending myself. This seems to me much like the situation where a swinger couple is being caught by the vanilla people around them, and they were having to explain why they swing, while being told that they're a threat to vanillas because they may try to fuck them, that the sole fact of talking about swinging could be seen as being pushy with the vanilla people. Here, I am explaining a swinger that I am poly-friendly after "being caught", explaining why we're poly-friendly, while being told that we're a threat to swingers because we may want them to fall in love, that the sole fact of talking about poly could be seen as being pushy with the swingers.

 

Now, you're swinger. Would you pursue a vanilla couple to swing with them? If they know you're swingers and tells you "swinging isn't for us", but ask you questions about swinging, would you start pursuing them because of this?

 

It is the same for us, and we deserve the same credit from swingers regarding to our poly-frienship lifestyle as we all do as swingers from vanilla people.

[Mike and Jan 20]

There are so many types of love.

 

Love of one's spouse..., (total emotional and intimate love)

 

Love of children and pets..., (devotion and protection)

 

Love of friends..., (total mutual trust and helpfulness)

 

Why can't there be love for a regular swinging partner (s)? After all, who besides your spouse fills so many needs?

[KittKatt 16]

My partner felt she loved her swinging partner. He was the 1st guy she was with apart from me. On reflection she feels it was just lust and admits she does like the guy a lot. I don't mind that, and would expect that.

 

Have any of you ever fallen in love with your swinging friends or has your partner? Or even felt mildly in love? And if so, how has that affected your feelings towards them/relationship with him/her?

 

Just wondering if falling in love is a big no-no in swinging.

 

John

 

Hi John,

 

To answer your question , "has anyone ever fallen in love with their swinging partner"

 

Yes, I did....I recently confronted this man about my feelings, he too was my first swinging experience, with my spouse. Unfortunately, the man wasn't and isn't ready for steady sex or love in his life, he is a very complex person.

 

Here's the deal, I still and will always love my husband, what we have is "our" love.......I could never love another the exact same for no one is the exact same person as he. I do believe that we are soulmates. However what I felt for this man was and is "love" , not just a close friendship love, but a souls meeting love, to the point of I was bedridden for a few days after finding out that we had misunderstood his wants from this relationship.......

 

Which as stated runs into polyamory .....meaning "loving more"

 

Your next question ...did it affect our relationship with this person or our spouse? No....I am married to "my" soulmate (at least one of them) , so he fully understands me and what we have discussed.....to the point that he agreed for this outing of my feelings, and the possibility of a more solid relationship to develop. We aren't afraid or feel threatened by one or the other or us both to fall in "love" with someone else....in the monogamous world ...YES this would usually mean Divorce....but for us, like I said......I can never love someone like I do my spouse, nor will I ever love someone like I did this other man or any man from my past for that matter.

 

We are still very close to this other man, distantly for now, because I need the space to finish mourning "my loss", but that's me, and everyone is different.

 

For us...the more the merrier

 

We will most likely continue to "swing", but now we aren't "restricted" to just recreational sex, or friendships only. But open to the possibility of extending our family, our loves, and our lives

 

I hope that helped, and good luck to ya'

 

xoxoxo C

[Amanda69 24]

My swing partner is my husband...the person who satisfies my many needs is my husband...the rest are just fun extras...toys to enhance what is already a great sexual and love relationship. This is how we view swinging and what seems to be a popular view of our swinging friends.

 

[EvilMJ 65]

My swing partner is my husband...the person who satisfies my many needs is my husband...the rest are just fun extras...toys to enhance what is already a great sexual and love relationship. This is how we view swinging and what seems to be a popular view of our swinging friends.

 

Exactly how we feel as well. We got into this for fun, a chance to meet and have fun with people like us, go to parties, dances, get out and have a good time. We are not into it for any sort of relationship, I personally don't have time for that. My love is reserved for my family alone.

 

I don't think there is any problem with other people getting involved in polyamorous relationships, if that is their choosing. I think we all have a right to find our own happiness.

[willyoats 324]

I hardly ever would swing with a partner that I did not have a considerable liking for. As someone said earlier in this thread, screwing someone you don't really care much about is no different from masturbating. Certainly anyone I had sex with more than once was someone I cared about and really liked.

 

Only once did I fall in love with a partner. My wife (of 43 years) knew from the first moment I met the new woman that I would go gaga! My wife believes that it is possible to love more than one woman at a time, and now 9 years after I met the other woman, I am still very much in love with both. It caused no problems with my marriage because my wife knows my "core values" (her words) and does not feel that our relationship is threatened by the other woman.

 

So, it is possible if you have a great marriage to a wonderful and understanding and secure woman.

[Better Half 15]

I think that there are degrees of affection that can be had among swing partners. If allowed to develop, love could certainly enter into the picture. Speaking for myself, I have to like my potential swing partner above and beyond the physical attraction. However, I love my hubby. If my relationship with my husband was lacking in something that a swing partner provided above and beyond the sexual/friendship aspect then the ground would be ripe for love to enter the picture.

 

As humans, we naturally gravitate towards people that can meet our needs, whatever they may be physical or emotional. So.....what is the moral of this posting, make sure that you communicate your needs to your spouse, whatever they may be, then you will not need someone else to meet them. That way swinging can remain what it usually meant to be, 'fun with friends' (or acquaintances, or strangers, or whatever the couple wants it to be).

[sereneiders 263]

I think that there are degrees of affection that can be had among swing partners. If allowed to develop, love could certainly enter into the picture. Speaking for myself, I have to like my potential swing partner above and beyond the physical attraction. However, I love my hubby. If my relationship with my husband was lacking in something that a swing partner provided above and beyond the sexual/friendship aspect then the ground would be ripe for love to enter the picture.

 

As humans, we naturally gravitate towards people that can meet our needs, whatever they may be physical or emotional. So.....what is the moral of this posting, make sure that you communicate your needs to your spouse, whatever they may be, then you will not need someone else to meet them. That way swinging can remain what it usually meant to be, 'fun with friends' (or acquaintances, or strangers, or whatever the couple wants it to be).

 

I don't see where the word "need" fits here, nor it is required to "lack something" inside your marriage to develop feelings towards other people.

 

I'd say this would be stretching the question a little bit for my taste.

 

Take the question "why people swing?".

 

I am pretty sure you already heard or read someone claim it is because there's a lack of something inside the marriage, there's a void that need to be fulfilled, that swingers are problematic couples who engage in swinging in a pale and futile attempt to overcome their marital problems, that they should be trying to "face their problems" instead of running away from them by means of feeding their lust.

 

Now, you know for sure that's BS, such an argument is way off grounds, it's leaded by prejudice, and it is misleading.

 

Well, I am sorry, but I have to tell you, you just did the same. You pegged "love" with "needs" in a way that other people doesn't (as happens to us), thus you jumped into conclude, if someone love someone else but his/her wife, it "necessarily" comes from some lack inside the relationship, thus, it'd be advisable for those people to "face their problems" instead of running away from them by means of a placeholder for love.

 

Now, if you can understand why some people misunderstand swingers, you could understand this is a matter of lack of understanding of the polyamoral relationship and it meanings.

 

As I see this, we, as humans, develop feelings towards a lot of people around us along our life: our family, our friends, our spouses. In order to reassure some bonds we may require from other people to claim their feelings toward us are stronger than the ones they have towards other people, and we do those claims as to reassure each other. In fact, not all the people around us ask us for such a reassurance: your family doesn't need it, they know... your friends wouldn't be as disrespectful as to challenge the reassurance you gave to your spouse, and the only one demanding such a reassurance ends up being your spouse. So, it's ok to do things this way.

 

But what if your best friends ask you to tell him/her, that he or she is the one you love the most, even more than your spouse? What if you're challenged to define why and how you love each one of the people you have around you? Think of this as an exercise, and tell me it'd be easy to choose (and that you're not being "politically right" about this).

 

In the other hand, if you want to talk about "needs", I'd say it's a romantic archetype to suppose you'll find or found someone able to fulfill ALL your needs, and even if you were lucky enough as to find him/her... doesn't she or he deserve a rest, from time to time, from the permanent effort of fulfilling them? It doesn't sound a little selfish to ask the one you love to fulfill all your needs, all the time, without a break? So, even if the loved one were able to fulfill all your needs, giving him/her a rest by looking to fulfill some of those needs somewhere else, this have to mean your loved one "is failing"? That you're rejecting your loved one ability to fulfill them? That there is a "problem" inside your marriage?

 

Now, I can understand our culture lead us to answer questions like these in one way or another, and even that for some of us those questions may be threatening, but this doesn't mean ALL of us have problems with these questions, and even if hard to answer, that some of us could be willing to explore, enjoy, and learn about our feelings as much as we explore, enjoy, and learn about our sexuality by means of swinging.

[WesternSwing 504]

Very eloquently said, Sereneiders. Thank you.

 

Mr. WS

[Pepper & Drew 384]

don't see where the word "need" fits here, nor it is required to "lack something" inside your marriage to develop feelings towards other people.

 

I'd say this would be stretching the question a little bit for my taste.

 

Take the question "why people swing?".

 

I am pretty sure you already heard or read someone claim it is because there's a lack of something inside the marriage, there's a void that need to be fulfilled, that swingers are problematic couples who engage in swinging in a pale and futile attempt to overcome their marital problems, that they should be trying to "face their problems" instead of running away from them by means of feeding their lust.

 

Now, you know for sure that's BS, such an argument is way off grounds, it's leaded by prejudice, and it is misleading.

 

Well, I am sorry, but I have to tell you, you just did the same. You pegged "love" with "needs" in a way that other people doesn't (as happens to us), thus you jumped into conclude, if someone love someone else but his/her wife, it "necessarily" comes from some lack inside the relationship, thus, it'd be advisable for those people to "face their problems" instead of running away from them by means of a placeholder for love.

 

I agree, Sereneiders. I always find it surprising when swingers use their own view to determine what is ok or not ok for other people, only to be shocked when other people do the same thing to them. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Pepper

[sereneiders 263]

It's interesting to point out how the discussion evolved.

 

The OP asked if someone of us ever fallen in love with a swinger partner, and how we dealt with this.

 

Not all of us have the experience: most swingers would avoid this sort of feelings to evolve and would stop meeting such a partner before ever having to face an scenario like this one.

 

The ones who actually had it answered. Some may say it's an avoidable thing, that hey had a pretty nasty experience they don't want to repeat, and advice against them. Some others said they were able to deal with those experiences, even that they enjoyed them. The later made up the majority of the members answering this question, which doesn't mean we're the majority of the population... it just proves there's a lot of people without this experience, most of them because they avoid it.

 

So far, it is OK, but then, this supposed majority of unwanted or unexpected answers become threatening for some of us, so we start advocating against developing feelings, but not from the actual experience but from our prejudices.

 

Following this logic, the vast majority of the population aren't swingers, thus when they face a board whose majority of members are swingers, they should be here advocating against swinging.

 

This reminds me of the graffiti: "Eat shit. Millions of flies shouldn't be wrong". Ok, I agree, advocating against polyamorous relationships doesn't correlate to advocating to eat shit, but it's the only example at hand. I just would like the advocators against polyamorous relationships to make open questions to the people who actually had the experience as to understand what's going on, at least BEFORE advocating.

 

By discussing this, no one (I guess and hope) will try to convince them to engage in polyamorous relationships, the same way swingers wouldn't try to convince vanilla people into swinging just because of satisfying their curiosity and discussing what's going on in the lifestyle.

 

Because of this I believe it'd be nice to have a dedicated area for this topic in the board. This way, everywhere else we, as swingers, would be able to keep being conservative and advice against developing feelings to the newcomers, but also would have a place where to discuss the subject without needing to take a position.

[usis 15]

Hello There,

We had posted in another thread but always felt our situation was more for a Poly discussion. And we are looking to explore the 2, 3, 4 way Polyamorous Lifestyle and how it relates to swinging. Maybe one could look at us as leaning more toward the "Polyamorous" way of life and yes that is the way we are tending toward and want in our lives...Some of you talk about "allowing" yourself to fall In Love with someone. Ain't that simple, people, when the chemistry is there it just happens and you are listening to someone who has been and is still very much, in Deep Love with her husband of nearly 40 yrs. and almost that for the others in this discussion, whom are also deeply in Love...YES! Plus we are all very committed to our families, children and Grandchildren, in other words just average hopefully sane people, whom are dealing with the extraordinary.

 

What happened was, in a new swinging relationship, The Husband, will call him "F" in the other Party and myself found ourselves slammed right from the very first attempt. His wife (A) and I seemed to hit it off so well, (not Bi, btw) we were great friends from the start. AND continue to be. Like sisters, that neither of us had. Our spouses, did see an emotional connection and we agreed it was better at the time not to pursue the Physical. Which was hard but dealt with. As time passed we all chatted and became good friends, there was a really exciting fun aspect to the relationship and Hubby wanted me to be happy so along the way, we started a physical relationship, with them. Wrong you say, but it happened nonetheless. By this time F & I are very much in Love and were long before the Physical. And the thing is, we did realize it wasn't just an infatuation, but a true "Second In Command" relationship...not a sharing, but an extension. ...And as He explained, a new well-spring of Love, that you never new existed, More than enough there for everybody. Like when you have one child, you think you couldn't love more. Then the next one comes along and doesn't replace the first one, but you love each one equally. An extension of Love that already exists. And more Footprints in our Hearts. But having said that, we always know who is First In Command! And who must come first. Because that is only right and fair. There are many years between us, all of us.

 

We all have pursued other swing partners as well. But the fact remains we are very deeply in Love, as "second in command", not to replace our spouses. And it is a true commitment that will never end...And we live apart yes.

So now you are reading that this is a 1 sided affair and yes some of you will call us cheaters, nevertheless, our spouses pretty much know we have a very special, relationship. We have decided not to pursue the Physical part of our relationship, and just stay friends and as of this writing are great friends socially. Sooo do we deserve to Love and Be so Loved by someone, Be so happy, for the second time in our lives, in the second half of our lives, without threatening our Primary partners? The best that we can hope for is that our spouses who are good friends, In time will come to accept us as being in Love, knowing "that" Love is deep and committal for life, and accept the Polyamorous aspect of the relationship. and not be threatened because neither of us is going anywhere. That will truly be a beautiful Day.

 

We are not asking for advice, because "we know we will always Love each other, yes always" and we were intrigued with "Willyoats" post, discussing the Core relationship and the fact 9 years later he is still very much in love with Both. Neither one of us are finding anything lacking in our Primary relationships. And the valid point that was made concerning what vanillas think of the swinging Population, and say there must be something missing for them to do that. And some of the swingers go absolutely nutty about those who fall in love...(and yes we realize exactly what most of you are driving at regarding it, ) or who even want to like, and have a nice relationship with those they swing with. I for one ( as was also spoken about in another post,) have to like the person and find some meaningful connection to the person i am having sex with OR that intimate time will not be very satisfying and also not fair to the other person involved. And yes we know that the a good majority are only in swinging for Casual, recreational sex, and run far and fast away from anything that might be deemed emotional. We are all different people looking for different things in life and what works for some just cannot be made to be forced upon all. Any comments?

 

Regards,

-Usis 1 (female viewpoint)

[usis 15]

Hi everyone.

 

We’re not sure whether we fit any of the standard definitions of either swinging or poly… sometimes we feel that we fall through the cracks. “We” are two halves of two swinging couples, and we are in love. We are in love with each other, but – and we stress this – we remain very much in love with, and committed to, our primary partners, those wonderful people who have been the center of our lives for so many years (and who will remain so).In an ideal swingers world, we would have enjoyed good ‘recreational’ sex and kept our emotions out of it. In an ideal poly world (at least as we would like it) all four of us would have been bitten by the ‘love bug’. But in the real world it doesn’t always work out that way. So two of us are amorous, and feel we fit the poly mold, while our spouses are, and likely will remain, ‘just friends’.

 

Just a bit of history here…We are all late arrivals to the lifestyle, and of similar backgrounds: two very stable (we thought, anyway), 50-plus, committed, loving, married-forever couples looking to enhance already great relationships. Nothing ‘missing’ as touched upon in posts above, nothing broken that needed fixing: already happy and just looking for a little ‘more’…

 

Well, we got more than we ever anticipated. We clicked in preliminary letter exchanges and msn chats.. clicked even more in a ‘get-acquainted’ meeting at a club, and then, when it came time for the ‘take it to the next level’ meeting, the two of us were clicking so intensely that our spouses said, “Whoa, let’s back away, this is beyond ‘recreational’ and we’re feeling threatened.” So we backed away from the intimacy. The physical side of the relationship went on the back burner.

 

Now, we are sure a lot of the pure swingers will say, we should have all gone our separate ways at that point, let it cool. In fact, this might have happened except that our spouses enjoyed the 4-way friendship part so much, and encouraged this to grow. And it blossomed. Without being intimate, we visited, dined together, bragged about grandkids, consoled one another through family emergencies, exchanged modest Christmas gifts and had hilarious msn chats (we’re an hour apart). We vacationed together. In short, we did - and still do - all the wonderful things vanilla friends do. As the friendship deepened, so did the emotional bond between the two of us. If it was infatuation originally (as many would argue) it developed into genuine love, an emotional commitment that is NOT going to go away.

 

For a few months, we were swinging friends who would play with others but not among ourselves. Then the time came that our spouses felt we were sufficiently ‘under control’ that we could finally add physical intimacy to the relationship. For us, it was ecstasy; for them it was nerve-wracking. It was way beyond neutral, recreational sex, and nobody was kidding anybody otherwise. So after a few delicious interludes, the friendship went vanilla again, and remains so to this point.

 

So, what are we? Is there a definition? Two of us are in love. We are all good friends. And we are again swingers, but not among ourselves.

 

To answer some other obvious questions: Do they know about our love affair? They know there is a great deal of emotional attachment. The word “love” is not used. Way too stressful for them, way too threatening. Are we dishonest? Are we deceitful? Probably yes, although to a degree it is deception by mutual consent. They know, but don’t want to know, sort of thing. And we fear total honesty. We fear the two of us being ordered to stay apart, and fear a beautiful friendship being torn apart.

 

Yet we would love to be totally honest.. to try to explain the poly concept, that you can love a second person, without loving the first person less. That they will always, always, be first in our hearts, our primary partners, our First-In-Command. They feel threatened, and we probably would be too, if the situation were reversed. How do we convince them that we love them every bit as much. – probably more – than we did when this all started a year ago? That they do not need to be threatened, as we are not going anywhere.

 

We are not ashamed of our love. We dispute the swingers’ mantra that it’s okay to stick your dick in any available pussy, but not okay to love. We do regret that our love for each other causes anxiety to the others whom we love. For that anxiety, we ask forgiveness. For the fact that we are less than honest, we ask forgiveness.

For our love, however, we do not ask for forgiveness. We ask for acceptance.

 

Regards,

Usis 2 (Male Viewpoint)

[Mike and Jan 20]

Usis,

 

What a beautiful relationship!

 

You've found what I would love for my loving wife and I to find some day!

[sereneiders 263]

We are not ashamed of our love. We dispute the swingers’ mantra that it’s okay to stick your dick in any available pussy, but not okay to love. We do regret that our love for each other causes anxiety to the others whom we love. For that anxiety, we ask forgiveness. For the fact that we are less than honest, we ask forgiveness.

For our love, however, we do not ask for forgiveness. We ask for acceptance.

 

I cannot recall if I told this in this thread, or in another discussion regarding polyamory (and, until I learn how to post in a million words or less, I am not up to re-read my own posts ).

 

I think this is the cultural thing, we're not supposed to express affection or love towards each other. In the other hand, when someone felt loved, he/she may feel in debt, because somehow we tie up love with reciprocity.

 

And it's interesting to notice that most religions encourages people to love each other, while in the other hand, and even when we may be religious and interact with religious people, we're forced to follow the forces driving our world as to be "successful" people.

 

You can ba in the street and hear someone yell hateful words to someone else because of some silly incident, however, if someone dare to yell an unknown guy "I love you", every head will turn to take a look, suspecting he/she just lost a screw.

 

And it reaches the point where you end up apologizing for your right to avoid apologizing for loving someone else.

 

As Spock would say: "Fascinating".

[intuition897 2,179]

We dispute the swingers’ mantra that it’s okay to stick your dick in any available pussy, but not okay to love.

Don't know whose mantra that is, but it's not mine. No one is disputing the validity or value of a poly lifestyle. But you can't tell me that it's the "best" way, just because it is what you choose. My husband and I mutually agreed that we did not want to get emotionally involved with others because it would require too much energy to maintain two such relationships as what we have with each other. I would rather pour all my energy into loving one man the way he deserves to be loved. Part of that love is allowing him to develop other relationships if he so desires. He has said the same of me. But we just find that it is not something we are interested in, so we fit the swinger's profile instead.

 

We are currently not even swinging (life's too busy), but when we were and when we do, it is by no means as cold and harsh as the dick+pussy attitude you described. We need to at least like our partners as people, otherwise, we have no interest in them sexually. We all four simply agree to recognize and respect the emotional boundaries of our respective relationships. It's a matter of choosing to not cross those boundaries, not being unable to due to fear or insecurity.

[usis 15]

Intuition897;

Sorry, but we did not infer that it's the "Best" way. Surrender Just telling our situation...Ummm...In the time that all 4 of us have been involved in swinging...I think "we have found" that most of our acquaintances "not all" mind you, are just out for a Recreational Fuck..which certainly is fine, for some. We (female here) when starting out, started with the normal newbie "Rules" that were broken.

 

The history is such that my Hubby knows from experience several years ago, (No affair was ever consummated) that there can be Love for "more than One". And he wanted to avoid that pain...and that is "his" thinking...But he also knows that (maybe because of my upbringing,who knows,) that I had to "like" (or at least be able to have a decent conversation with) someone in order to have sex with them. So I suppose that put me at risk... He doesn't really have to, but if he does, the experience is certainly more satisfying.

 

I love my husband very deeply, but I also Love Usis2 the same as well, One primary, one secondary, but would mourn them both, the same as I would mourn "each" of my children and Grandchildren. It is not a case of splitting all my energy between them. They all deserve the same LOVE from my overflowing "wellspring".. What works for you is great...we would never try to dispute that...

 

I have had the experience of "cold & harsh" and I don't like it. But "we" don't mean to lump all swingers in that category. And apologize if it came across that way.

 

Soooo try as you might, sometimes one "cannot" choose to cross or not cross the emotional boundary. Neither of us went out looking to "Fall In Love" For lack of a better phrase, "it just happened" and what we are explaining is the response to the question that the OP posed.

 

Our situation is a "relationship in Progress" and yet to be totally defined. And we are interested in the experience of others who may have experienced something similar. We are all great friends , which is very important to us, and Usis2 and I will remain forever deeply in Love, whether, we ever become "Lovers" again or not. And yes, it Is a "complicated" situation at best. soapbox

 

Oh and Mike & Jan, thank you for the comment, and Sereneiders, you seem to have a seem to have an understanding.

Regards,

U1&2

[Guest Woodpecker]

I have never fallen in love with a swinging partner. I love sex but I don't want any more romantic relationships. One at a time is enough for me. I've had a few male swinging partners try to date me but I've turned them down and we stopped seeing each other. Love and swinging don't mix in my book unless you're talking about the partner you arrived with.

 

Ann