Swinging vs. Religion: Your Thoughts

[She_n_Jaybee 15]

After checking out the Oprah forums about her show on swinging and a few recent experiences and posts I've seen on here, I thought a discussion of this might be helpful. I never did find out Oprah's take on swingers, but did see an all too common reaction. The initial response had a few swingers mentioning how long they had been in the lifestyle and the joy it brings to them. This was followed by something along the lines of "God doesn't like what you're doing, so you better stop". It then degenerated into bickering.

 

If you're a devout (insert religion here) who is also a swinger, perhaps your views can help others trying to justify their sex life with their beliefs. My own method is to take the Christian dogma into which I was raised, with a few grains of salt. By keeping a tight rein on sexuality, organized religion keeps a firm grip on their source of power and revenue. She's response is "Judge not lest ye be judged". I feel that if you are not using sex to hurt others or to control or manipulate then it's not a problem. A point to consider: Assuming an omniscient, omnipotent god, why make the urge to procreate stronger than almost any other urge, then introduce it to your creation at an age where their bodies are going through hormonal hell and they have no experience making life-shaping choices, then tell everyone it's forbidden except for very limited circumstances? If you assume an extremely sadistic creator, it makes sense. Or perhaps with real estate being so expensive, Heaven is getting overcrowded, so [he, she, it] had to make it nearly impossible to become a member.

 

Looking forward to reading everyone else's take on the subject.

[Charger500 30]

Well I think it's all about how much you really believe what the Bible (or your faith tradition) says. If you think the Bible is just a fable or just neat stories then no rationalizations are needed...do what you want since it's not true anyway.

 

If you believe what the Bible says is true then it's sin...Bible is very clear on fornication/adultery/sexual immorality.

 

Kind of like "Jay walking"...you're breaking a law, you can convince yourself it's OK, no one is going to get hurt and it's just the police keeping a firm grip on how to walk...but it's still braking the law.

 

I suspect all this has been covered in countless other posts though

 

[Amanda69 24]

She_n_Jaybee nicely put in your post.

 

Religion and how you incorporate it into your life and into your sexual life are very personal and subject to so many different inpretations. Much depends on whether or not you take the bible literally. After all Catholic doctrine still says you can't use any birth control but there aren't many Catholics following that one...so where does it all leave you.

 

Well many self professed extremely religious people still do nasty, sinful, as far as the bible and sometimes society is concerned. How many wars, scamming money, sleeping with followers, killing off all your followers (Jim Jones), The Inquisition, the Crusades, sexual abuse of young children, etc were all done in the name of religion or by those protected by religion?

 

If you consider all this maybe there is a lot of real estate free in Heaven and God is just waiting for all us sexy little swingers who do no harm to anyone to come on up and join him....

[SA_Cpl 15]

There is a great website that does a wonderful job of discussing this topic that I would like to recommend.

 

It is: http://www.LibChrist.com They have operated a christian swinging group in the Phoenix area for many years. I recommend the site to many newbies. It not only discusses religion but many other relationship issues commonly encountered in swinging and other alternative lifestyles, such as poly.

[intuition897 2,179]

Hoo boy, this thread is troll bait if ever I saw it!

 

I've discussed this in detail in various other threads so I'll keep it short.

 

I'm a Christian, and yet hubby and I have no problem with swinging. My view is that people have allowed themselves to get so caught up in the silly details (like which body part fits into which hole) that they have neglected to ask themselves WHY it's so wrong. Well...because...just because it IS! they reply. I makes absolutely no sense that a deity who created such amazing things - such perfect things - could create a system so flawed as a physical drive that we, as imperfect human beings, will never be able to fully control while retaining our mental health. Does that make sense? That God would create something like sex - a remarkable tool that we can use to improve our own health and life satisfaction, as well as that of others, and a way to communicate our emotions to one another - and then turn around and tell us that it's bad? Why is it pure with one human being (our spouse), and a dirty, sinful, evil thing to do with another? Is this other person so dirty and sinful that he or she is going to contaminate us? Do we contaminate others with our sexuality??

 

I just don't feel that the "and the two shall become one" had anything to do with sex. Sex is just how they express their spiritual/emotional union. It isn't the union itself.

 

I just think God's got bigger things on His mind than our sexual habits; I think He's more worried about our motives and intentions than about our actions. People can make honest mistakes, and those can be easily forgiven, but it's those who KNEW they were doing wrong - yet did it anyway - that are the more challenging to deal with. I think if folks would just step back from it all it would start to make sense. The entire point is to do everything you can to be a positive force on the world, not a negative one. We just need to stop hurting ourselves and each other.

[She_n_Jaybee 15]

Intuition Very well expressed and on a similar vein as what I tried to express.

[Bad Sandy 15]

Danny and I are Christians. I've posted on this topic before and will try to keep it simple also. ( Read "Divine Sex" by Philo Thelios (amazon.com) for an in depth study on how God REALLY veiws sex.) The bible was translated from Greek and many of the words such as fornication and adultury and lust didn't mean exactly the same thing in biblical times as is does now. Fornication means "sinful sex acts" which the bible specifies to be incest, rape, bestiality, and prostitution in worship. Adultery meant breaking a marriage contract. Biblical heroes (ex. Abraham) GAVE his wife to Pharoh. God was angry with Pharoh for taking her away and making her his WIFE. Not for having sex with her. God didn't even mention to ANY of the old testament heroes that maybe they shouldn't have 30 wives and 200 concubines! LOL Anyway, read the book. It's good for easing any stressed consciences.

 

Sandy

[LFM2 1,482]

intuition897 said:

I think He's more worried about our motives and intentions than about our actions.

 

Intuition spoke much more eloquently than I could. My husband and I are Christians as well.

 

I also think the love I have for my husband is selfless and blissful. I want to see him happy and content, just as I believe that is how God wants to see us.

[dayhiker 83]

I too am a Christian that would swing if my wife was OK with it.

 

I grew up in a fundamentalist church and for 40 years believed what they taught about sex. Well, except for masturbation. I figured out that saying masturbation was a sin was a man made rule when I 21. After all God didn't say it was a sin the Bible.

 

So 35 years later I finally study what the Bible says about sex. I did what I always do, look to see what the words meant in the Bible days. I was amazed to find that neither fornication for adultery today have the same meaning they did in Bible times.

 

I agree, Divine Sex is a very good book. Loved it. libchrist.com is a good web site. if you do your research your faith will grow and your liberty in Christ will grow as well. Jesus is a end of the law for righteousness. We are under grace not law. Not only man made rules that Jesus had to deal with, but the Jew law as well. Paul dealt with that over and over.

 

God bless,

dayhiker

 

[MrConcupiscence 16]

Intuition is so right – I desperately wanted to be troll myself and rant about bible camp experiences and the minister’s daughter I used to date and share with my friends but I will keep it in context.

 

This is a really a subject of procreation.

 

Religion – all denominations - grows with new understanding. The church used to profess the Earth was flat – the Earth was the center of the universe – witches must be burned – and a multitude of other misconceptions. The men who wrote the early biblical texts were no different than the men today – we have a psychological need to know that the children we call ours are truly ours. Women on the other hand bear the children and don’t question if the child is hers or not.

 

The ability to control procreation allows humans to enjoy sex with the worries of pregnancies (for the most part) thus the Earth is no longer flat and men no longer need to worry if a child is his or not as couples make decisions on when they procreate.

 

The ability to control procreation is only about 50 years old. This is a very young subject for humans and religion and the technology is growing quickly. Nonetheless, religion has accepted that the Earth is round, women can be ministers, not all priests are good, and religion will eventually accept that sex is fun and not taboo.

 

Mr. Concupiscent

 

(Jacked by all religions, mastered by none)

[WA_Cple 20]

My husband and I are also Christian. I am very active in my church, however, my husband is not. Although I think it has more to do with being raised Catholic then being a swinger...

 

Thank you Intuition for so eloquently speaking on such a difficult and controversial topic.

 

 

Mrs WA

[WesternSwing 504]

Mrs. WS and I are Wiccan. Our beliefs revolve around the Wiccan Rede "An ye harm none, to what ye will." The key words here are "An ye harm none". We don't see this as a pass to do whatever we want without consequences like many fundamentalist Christians would want you to believe (they say it means "if it feels good do it, damn the consequences"), but rather it's followed by the Rule of Three which is "What Ye Send Out, Comes Back To Thee". We believe that every action has an opposite and equal reaction. Good actions beget good things and bad actions beget bad things. Like others have said this is important in that as long as everybody is benefited by the situation then it is good. If someone is harmed, it is not.

 

Sexuality is valued, and regarded as a gift to be engaged in with joy and responsibility, without manipulation.

 

We believe in a monistic system, where God and Goddess are one and one cannot exist without the other. It takes both to create balance and both are just as important as the other. The female being and sexuality is worshiped and respected just as the male sexuality. Once again, balance in all things.

 

We also have one day a year that could almost be considered a "swinging holiday" which is Beltane, or as Christianity assimilated it, May Day. In old times married couples were allowed to remove their wedding rings (and the restriction they imply) for this one night.

 

So as you can see, we really don't have a problem reconciling our beliefs with swinging. It's quite refreshing to eliminate that guilt.

[intuition897 2,179]

Wow, that's really interesting WS! Off to Google I go...

 

Strange isn't it? Some folks get so bent out of shape about the rightness or wrongness of something as stupidly simple as SEX! Well even a Monet is confusing if you're close enough to smell the paint. The artist likely was "in the zone" while he was creating his work, concentrating deeply, focusing on making the paint do what he wanted. But he didn't use a bloody microscope to create it. He just picked up his brush and did what was right. What ticks me off are people who try to do a paint by number copy of a masterpiece by using a magnifying glass and a grid system. The result is a shoddy, stilted, lifeless thing that has no soul. And while they were dotting away at it, arguing amongst themselves whether it's teal green or teal blue, they lost sight of what the picture was of. There's no love in that. There's no artistry. It's just people who are too afraid to trust that voice inside them telling them to just STOP THINKING and start painting! If they just went with it, their piece of art may not look exactly like a Monet, but it will at least have a soul...and it would be art.

 

I dunno. Did that make any sense to anyone??

 

Maybe not. But my point is, God is all about the big picture...not the silly details. If you follow the basic rules, the details just take care of themselves. We'll all fuck up now and then, but as long as we keep getting back on the wagon, that's all that matters.

[Searcher010 17]

I just think God's got bigger things on His mind than our sexual habits; I think He's more worried about our motives and intentions than about our actions.

 

Very well said; in fact, I think the whole question revolves around those two words: motive and intention. Motives that are selfless and aimed at the good for one's spouse and for two as a couple can be more than permissible; they can, at least arguably, be a special kind of loving gift.

 

While no marriage is ideal, a solid one goes much deeper than the attraction of bodies. That special, God-given linkage of hearts and souls, the kind that delights in the joys of another, shares the sorrows, and puts one's mate before anything and anyone else after God Himself and a healthy love of oneself, finds its ultimate completion in their sexual union. That lovemaking is unique to them and them alone.

 

In such a marriage, if the couple likes the idea of swinging, that form of sex is a separate thing, a lesser but still exciting way to express their sexuality both individually and a couple. If one can not only accept, but share the delight and excitement one's spouse is experiencing in a swinging situation, there's a great expression of trust in that. It becomes as much a giving thing as a taking thing, and I think that God smiles upon that.

 

God's laws pertaining to sex have changed as the needs of our humble species has changed; look at Leviticus sometime, not to mention such things as polygamy (I don't think even a king could get away with having some hundreds of wives, much less an assortment of concubines to boot, in today's world). While there's danger in using that fact to rationalize genuinely wrong behavior, it remains true nonetheless that change does happen.

 

Reality is not likely to be quite so ideal, but it can at least approach it.

 

Much is made, properly enough, of some of the failings of the Christian church in centuries past that produced some of the excessive repressions of sexuality. Augustine greatly overcompensated for his youthful excesses in his admonitions. And the kind of out-and-out evil and corruption that drove some of the less commendable pillars of the church was easily strengthened by attaching the threat of God's wrath to any questioning of their dicta. Control freaks and despots are not limited to secular governments. Unfortunately, more than a little of the rot that sprang from those depraved minds persists to this day, unrecognized as such by many leaders who, with sincere faith in their validity, pass them on to new generations. Perhaps if time, wisdom and courage can lead to the weeding out of the dross from the truth, Christians will come to see things like swinging to be healthy and moral.

[intuition897 2,179]

Well said, Searcher!

Unfortunately, more than a little of the rot that sprang from those depraved minds persists to this day, unrecognized as such by many leaders who, with sincere faith in their validity, pass them on to new generations. Perhaps if time, wisdom and courage can lead to the weeding out of the dross from the truth, Christians will come to see things like swinging to be healthy and moral.

It's truly amazing, but I've had people tell me that I'm not a Christian because of our lifestyle. How in the hell would they know?? Frankly, it's not their place to say one way or the other. None of their business at all. But for some reason, sexual sin automatically cancels a person out of God's good books. At least that's what they keep telling me. "Well, you CAN'T call yourself a Christian...because a REAL Christian would not be living a life like that." :rollseyes Oh bullshit. Gimme a break. I thought being a REAL Christian meant believing that God loved me enough to sacrifice His own flesh and blood so that my flaws would be made perfect...so that my debt would be paid. I can't afford the kind of bill I've rung up so far in my lifetime. And He doesn't want to be repaid. He just wants me to appreciate it. If I really want to thank Him for his gift, I'll take life by the horns and really LIVE it. Make the most of it. Do something good with it.

 

It's a pretty simple plan, actually. Don't know why people have to get their panties all in a knot about things they know nothing about. And I don't know where they get the idea that complacency and ignorance are the model of Christian living. Jesus Christ was a serious shit disturber. Always doing and saying the unexpected, telling us to look for the Spirit of God in the least expected places. Telling us that the big secret is to turn everything we know upside down and inside out, and we'll find the real truth of it. That strength is weakness, and weakness is the real strength. That the greatest void has the greatest potential for greatness. That the thing that's right is usually the more difficult path to take. That life is something we have to work at. That greed leads to emptiness, and that generosity leads to abundance. Everything was so very contrary to the way we THINK things are supposed to work.

 

But people, being what they are, will always screw things up. We've literally bitten off more than we could chew, and now we've got more knowledge than we were designed to deal with. More than is good for us. And like it or not, now we have to shoulder the responsibility of being the good stewards of this knowledge. We can do marvelous things, but these big brains of ours have gotten us into more shit than if we'd just left the damned quince on the tree.

[She_n_Jaybee 15]

Somewhat related to this thread, or at least to the preceding post: Has anyone read "The Hero With 1000 Faces", by Joseph Campbell? It's somewhat of an attempt to tie together all the recurring imagery of our stories, religious and mythological. I found it to be very provocative and it has several biblical references that support Searcher's post. Not the most thrilling reading, but still worthwhile in my opinion.

[WesternSwing 504]

intuition897 said:

It's a pretty simple plan, actually. Don't know why people have to get their panties all in a knot about things they know nothing about. And I don't know where they get the idea that complacency and ignorance are the model of Christian living. Jesus Christ was a serious shit disturber. Always doing and saying the unexpected, telling us to look for the Spirit of God in the least expected places. Telling us that the big secret is to turn everything we know upside down and inside out, and we'll find the real truth of it. That strength is weakness, and weakness is the real strength. That the greatest void has the greatest potential for greatness. That the thing that's right is usually the more difficult path to take. That life is something we have to work at. That greed leads to emptiness, and that generosity leads to abundance. Everything was so very contrary to the way we THINK things are supposed to work.

First, I loved your Monet analogy. It makes complete sense.

 

I was raised Greek Orthodox, so I have a Christian background, but found that Earth-based and Eastern religions a better fit for how I look at the world and started investigating them a while back. It's amazing that many Christians would look at Buddhism as being of the Devil because it's not Christian, however when examined carefully there are many parallels between the teachings of the Buddha and of Jesus Christ. Everything you just said above has also been said by Buddha, just in a different way.

[intuition897 2,179]

Well you can't argue with truth. And at the risk of sounding blasphemous to the traditional Christian's ear, Jesus didn't hold the patent on most of it. Okay, He holds the patent on the part about Him being God's Son, but the rest of it was just basic basic truths that were so simple, they were confusing. He was waking people up to a truth they needed to hear, but didn't even know they were missing.

[CurioslyShy 15]

OK, I'll bite...

 

We are both Christians and attend church regularly. If you read our 'newbie introduction' post, you already knew this. I think a couple posters got close to my point, but I'd like to throw it out there.

 

The biblical 'sins' of sexuality were focused on fulfilling one's own desires, and in the case of adultery, without the knowledge and consent of their partner. If swinging is all about bringing the 2 of us closer together, than that is what we focus on.

 

I love the fact that someone brought up the Monet illustration- I've been realizing in my own spiritual walk how much the Bible is making 1 big point: God only accepts perfection/ We aren't perfect/ We need Him and his forgiveness. Paul talks in Galations about how the 'rules' of Bible are there only to point out that we aren't perfect! If you live by the law, you are judged by the law. It is true that Christians and a lot of churches get caught up in their own social club where the only entrance fee is measuring up. I feel they give Christians a bad name. Just the same, I'm sure there are swingers that have their own view of the practice and give swinging a bad name as well. As we discussed in another post, we're not about trying to obtain the title of swinger, and we are not interested in anyone's opinion of our spirituality, except God's.

[intuition897 2,179]

It is true that Christians and a lot of churches get caught up in their own social club where the only entrance fee is measuring up. I feel they give Christians a bad name. Just the same, I'm sure there are swingers that have their own view of the practice and give swinging a bad name as well. As we discussed in another post, we're not about trying to obtain the title of swinger, and we are not interested in anyone's opinion of our spirituality, except God's.

 

Nicely put, CS. As you said yourself, people are simply imperfect. The sooner we realize our limitations and start asking for help, the better off we'll all be. This is the "finding strength in weakness" thing. It takes a strong person to admit his or her weakness and to lay down his or her pride to ask for help. A lot of people don't get that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as an example, men tend to have this hang-up that showing weakness is weakness. They figure that we're going to find them undesirable once we find out - *gasp* - that they're human. That they have feelings, and fears. That sometimes they don't know the answers. That they love us, and we have become one of their vulnerabilities. The truth is, I fell in love with just that in Mr. intuition. It takes remarkable strength to trust someone to such a degree.

 

And about obtaining titles and categorizing one's self and others: that's such a silly thing. We just do it so we can make sense of our world. Calling something by the name we give it doesn't change what it actually is, though. There's just Truth and Non-Truth. The only absolute beyond this is Love. Let people judge if they want to. As long as they're not jamming their noses in our business, I could care less what they think of us. All I'm concerned with is being true to myself and living an abundant life. If each of us did that, instead of measuring ourselves constantly against one another, we'd all get along just fine, and we would lead healthy, happy, productive lives. "They" call swingers degenerates, immoral lowlifes, and hell-bound hedonists. "They" say we're ALL bad. I say that it only takes one exception to turn a statement like that into a lie. So all we can each do is work on being one of those exceptions.

[dayhiker 83]

CurioslyShy said:

God only accepts perfection/ We aren't perfect/ We need Him and his forgiveness. Paul talks in Galatians about how the 'rules' of Bible are there only to point out that we aren't perfect! If you live by the law, you are judged by the law.

 

Very well put shy, I think you can add another aspect to your thought. Paul says over and over we are not under the law but under grace. But works of the law shall no one be righteous. Love fulfills the law. Love covers a multitude of sins. Jesus is concern about the condition our heart is in because out of the heart the mouth speaks.

 

All these ideas in the Bible to me show that in our love relationship with God he isn't about obeying an ever growing list dos and don'ts but our heart loving him, ourselves and our neighbor. Some want to accomplish a lot in life. That is fine, but I just want to live in God's presence and enjoy being around my friends. I don't see relationships as being about being perfect but about being a friend, accepting them for who they are, who God created them to be.

[dinkydow4us 15]

This was a great thread! Lots of food for thought. I was raised in a christian home where sex was hardly ever talked about, and if it was, you came away with a sence of shame It caused me to put girls on pedistals which resulted in missing out on some of the secrets of life I realized later on that the churches policy about sex was total B.S. because the real world doesn't work that way. It can't, becaues it's against human nature. I now beleave that sexual pleasure is your birthright, and no one has the right to take that from you. God likes to see honest hearts and happy people. My guess is, there's a lot of people in the life style who fit that mold I don't go to church much anymore, because I've found that I can get a lot closer to God sitting in a deer stand on a frosty fall morning at sunrise than I can sitting in church listening to cheaters, child molesters, and wife beaters, all with Bible in hand, telling me what I have to do to get to hevan. Good luck to all, D. D.