The need to "label" everything?

Rockme · August 30, 2006

I have noticed a few things while reading MANY different posts on the subject of being “bi”. We seem to have a lot of people who are label happy. We have this desire to slap a label on people and situations. I have read questions like “I kissed another woman 10 years ago, does this make me bi?” or “during play with my woman another man’s penis hit my leg, does this mean I am now bi?”

We seem to want to attach a label to what happened out of fear. What is that fear we hold so deep down inside? Do we all have a fear of being “bi” and liking it?! Is it the fear that society has taught us that being “bi”, especially two males, is wrong?

I laugh when I read those males who almost overcompensate in their posts on this subject. The ones who say “I’m not gay or bi and I would never, never, never, never, never, never touch another guy! My wife has touched another woman, but again, I would never ever, not in a million years, not unless you paid me a million dollars, touch another man.” These same guys keep showing up on all the “bi” question posts. They feel it important to set the record straight before giving us their two cents. Almost like they believe someone will log on and say “HEY, I did not know he was gay or bi!!!” I may show up on some thread about “watersports”, but that does not mean I am into it. By reading other posts this is how we learn about thing.

I don’t know about you but I can’t spend the rest of my life so worried about labels. When my wife and I play we go out to have fun. We connect with the other couple or person and have fun. We don’t sit around saying “tonight will be the “bi” night.” We go with the mood and what the other person or persons want. My wife is not “bi” at all. She makes this clear to those we play with. She does not want another woman making a move on her. But if another woman’s boob hits her arm during play she does not freak out and say “does this make me “bi” now?” When do we get to the world where we look at each other as humans and not male/female? When do we get to the point that you can touch the same sex and not have to label it? 99% of my sexual life has been with women only. I have had oral sex with a few men, period. If this makes me gay, bi or what ever other label you see fit, then so be it! I think I am someone who is open to the human touch.

Karmickiss · August 30, 2006

I am one of those women that in a world of labels...(I've never been fond of any labels) who will say I am a bi-female...for lack of a better way to say it, and in doing so...I feel comfortable enough...b/c I can honestly say that I simply love beauty in all it's forms.

However...sometimes, (and more times than I ever would have imagined, actually) I am surprised at the sudden change it might have on someone's perception of me as a person. A lot of this, I do see as a reaction to the power of, and misunderstandings that may result from a label. One of the definitions of "label", according to the little paperback Oxford Dictionary I have in my modest little desk...is: "..to describe or classify." The simplest definition for "bi-sexual", in said dictionary, is:"sexually attracted by members of both sexes." ...hmmmm...I like threads that make me think

In my own humble experience, there might be a lot of reasons for it, the reason I think I was so surprised by various reactions, I mean. One thing I can clearly feel is that slight fear (or not so slight, depending) of the unknown, coupled with the same feeling that I can best describe as a bit of "homophobia". Then others are simply interested in what that means for me as a person...seeing sexuality on more of a spectrum, gay/straight...and where do you fall in between...etc... I'm sure there are a plethora of reasons...I can only speak for myself.

For me, the thing that I find disheartening at times would be the preconceived beliefs from some, that I naturally fall into a narrow definition of what bi-sexuality means to them. Some of those beliefs are more negative feeling for me,...like this means I couldn't be monogamous...that I'm a freak of nature that HAS to have both...or that I am in denial about really being gay...that my "in between" attitude is a cop out...etc. etc.. Although in some cases, I've made a friend b/c of the discussion it sparks; if the person is open enough to ask me about it...and can believe/understand that everyone's reality or fit in life is truly individual, and they state their feelings/thoughts about it not as "fact" for everyone. It's nice if these things are asked find out more about me, and the communication also can tell me a lot about others,too...and that's a good thing. It's too bad, though, that often it doesn't work like that...but to that I say,to each their own beliefs,and try to stick with more like-minded people for my own sanity...

Speaking just for me...I think that if there are no other glaring factors involved...that if one is truly bi-sexual...you know it, without a question...we can have a wide variety of experiences as human beings...(but they don't necessarily define us, but are the way we find out how to define ourselves) but there's nothing confusing about it for me anymore. The only hesitation I ever had was when I was very young, and I was affected much more personally by labels, and I was in a mild case of denial about how I felt about other women, but it wasn't earth-shatteringly hard to get over, once I grew into a sexual being. As I matured in this way, I understood myself enough to be able to say, yes, I guess I do fit under the label of bi-sexual, and this came along naturally as a part of my growth.

I really like the last statement in your post...about human touch...I too, feel that way.I feel lucky, even..that all it really means to me, in real simple terms (about being bi-sexual) is that it's all about the individual...with sex and attraction...and I never know which sex it will appear to me as...but when the chemistry and timing and all that jazz is right...my passion is either the 'king' or 'queen' of my universe...

Dooode · August 30, 2006

Accidental or incidental contact doesn't make anyone bi and I think that bisexuality begins with the curiosity and desirability of contact, regardless of how innocent or slight that contact might appear. It's not just contact. It's the motive behind the contact.

Labels can go overboard, and I've seen a few: bicurious, bi-tolerant, bi-top, cocksucker, just-boob-play, bi-anything-but-no-kissing!, she-can-kiss-my-pussy-but-I-won't-reciprocate ... and I think that's just a way for people to identify their boundaries. I label myself a "full-bisexual" to say that I am capable of pleasing both of a partner equally in all respects.

I'm pretty much like you where I'm more go-with-the-flow kinda guy; sometimes the man is more attractive to me, sometimes the woman. If I'm lucky, they both make me hot equally (then let the good times roll!!).

I know of what you mean by "overcompensate". I knew a guy once who used to beat up "fags". Turned out that it came out in group therapy that he got a blowjob when he was a kid and he was hiding it ever since by hating and beating up homosexuals (that must've been one lousy blowjob!).

So I take overcompensation with a grain of salt.

SueRic · August 30, 2006

Sexual preference categories are important because they permit easy identification and tracking of you by the NSA and Dept. of Homeland Security

Seriously, as I mentioned on a different thread, I find sexual preference descriptors as useless as they are persistent in their use. Men especially rely on them and seem fixated on establishing a bright line between straight, and bi or gay. Unfortunately, in a society that emphasizes sexual identity, tribalism, brand awareness, and wordplay, we won't soon be moving away from straight, bi, gay labels anytime soon.

Rockme · August 30, 2006

I just wanted to say thank you to each of you. I enjoyed your opinions and share in most everything you are saying!!

Maybe the label thing helps some to feel safe. They feel as if they must bash the “bi” thing because of fear. They feel that even talking with a “bi” somehow threatens their being a real man! Some will say “just not for me.” I think that is cool in every way. Some will say “I won’t play with a bi couple or couple that has a bi male.” They fear what could happen. Is that fear a fear of what I may do as a bi male to you or a fear of what may come out in you? I will tell you this. My wife and I have played with plenty of couples who are not “bi” or even “bi courisiouse.” I have had a LOT OF FUN with others without even given a second thought to the male. If you let that label hold you back out of fear, then you WILL miss a lot of great people. I am not some sick guy who can’t hold back my urges. Also, I don’t mean to hurt some people and their feelings, but some guys just don’t do it for me! Just like some women don’t do it for me. Don’t think that you are so hot that one look at you will make me want to have sex with you! If you put your rules in place with the other couple, there should be no problem. If there ever was, then end it then and there. I have yet to be in a swing setting with a non-bi couple and think I can’t stand it anymore I have to have his cock! Maybe we ALL need to get over our selves a little bit.

good times · August 30, 2006

I, for one, like labels, as a person with a busy life, labels help me prioritize whom we interact with. As many already know here, my wife and I are both straight. If we are contacted by somebody from our add profile and their profile emphasizes their desire for Bi activity, we know that we are not compatible and can move on to better prospects. Likewise, our add clearly labels us as straight, that way people looking for Bi-play can conveniently avoid us. It all works pretty good, and without the labels we would all be wasting a lot of time. Labels, whether you like them or not, are a necessary part of life and will probably be with us forever. Let’s face it, even you state that you want to be labeled as "human".

As far as the people emphatically claiming to be 100% straight goes, that is easily explained if you read the posts that precede it. It always starts when someone makes the ridiculous claim that "everybody is a little bit Bi" or something similar. Once someone makes a statement like that, then it becomes mandatory for someone else, like me, to point out that no, some of us are totally straight.

While it is a nice sentiment to say that we should all be looked at as just human with no other labels, it is not very practical in real life. We are all different, and labels are just one tool that helps us differentiate ourselves from each other.

good times · August 30, 2006

I just wanted to say thank you to each of you. I enjoyed your opinions and share in most everything you are saying!!

Maybe the label thing helps some to feel safe. They feel as if they must bash the “bi” thing because of fear. They feel that even talking with a “bi” somehow threatens their being a real man! Some will say “just not for me.” I think that is cool in every way. Some will say “I won’t play with a bi couple or couple that has a bi male.” They fear what could happen. Is that fear a fear of what I may do as a bi male to you or a fear of what may come out in you? I will tell you this. My wife and I have played with plenty of couples who are not “bi” or even “bi courisiouse.” I have had a LOT OF FUN with others without even given a second thought to the male. If you let that label hold you back out of fear, then you WILL miss a lot of great people. I am not some sick guy who can’t hold back my urges. Also, I don’t mean to hurt some people and their feelings, but some guys just don’t do it for me! Just like some women don’t do it for me. Don’t think that you are so hot that one look at you will make me want to have sex with you! If you put your rules in place with the other couple, there should be no problem. If there ever was, then end it then and there. I have yet to be in a swing setting with a non-bi couple and think I can’t stand it anymore I have to have his cock! Maybe we ALL need to get over our selves a little bit.

I was evidently posting my above comments at the same time you were posting this. Your new post begs the question though, is this really a problem? I have met a few people that wouldn't play with bi-males, and maybe it is out of the fear you state, I have no idea. However, in our experience this is extremely rare. Most people we know are like us, we are more than happy to play with you as long as you respect our desire not to engage in Bi activities. Furthermore, I have yet to meet anyone in the lifestyle that bashes somebody for being Bi.

Rockme · August 30, 2006

Thank you for your thoughts on the subject. I give your “opinion” just as much weight as anyone else. I would never want you to do anything that you don’t want to do. I have never said nor do I believe that everyone is a little “bi.” Yes, you are on the money about labels in society and in your life. So I will live my life trying to shed labels and their importance to me. You can live your life adding as many labels to me and everyone else. Labels do hold an important part in life in some way. It is only when we get so crazy about labels that we miss out on a lot of thing. A lot of good people and things fall outside of standard labels. If we are all so quick to see in black and white, labels and non-labels, then we will reap what we have sown. This may be how you choose to live your life. Far be it for I or anyone else to try and change your opinion. But then again that is the point. No one in this post is trying to convert or change anyone to his or her way of thinking. Again, thank you for taking the time to write.

2jersey · August 30, 2006

Thank you for your thoughts on the subject. I give your “opinion” just as much weight as anyone else. I would never want you to do anything that you don’t want to do. I have never said nor do I believe that everyone is a little “bi.” Yes, you are on the money about labels in society and in your life. So I will live my life trying to shed labels and their importance to me. You can live your life adding as many labels to me and everyone else. Labels do hold an important part in life in some way. It is only when we get so crazy about labels that we miss out on a lot of thing. A lot of good people and things fall outside of standard labels. If we are all so quick to see in black and white, labels and non-labels, then we will reap what we have sown. This may be how you choose to live your life. Far be it for I or anyone else to try and change your opinion. But then again that is the point. No one in this post is trying to convert or change anyone to his or her way of thinking. Again, thank you for taking the time to write.

If there is an either/or (black and white) framework for sexual identity it stems from efforts to assign everyone a label of homosexual or heterosexual. It seems bizarre to argue that the bisexual label is polarizing - it is a middle ground reality for many people.

Heterosexuals and gays/lesbians insist on their right to self-identify with the heterosexual or gay/lesbian label. Why deny bisexuals the same right?

If you're bisexual but don't want to use a label, then describe your sexual orientation without using the term "bisexual". Perhaps you might say: "I am a man and I think I would like to be sexual with a man" or " I enjoy sexual relations with people of more than one sex" or "I have the potential of being sexually attracted to members of my sex" or whatever... You will be saying the same thing as the rest of us, but you will be using more words.

I have erotic feelings for, fantasies of, and experiences with both men and women. For simplicity, I just say I am female and I am bisexual.

Spoomonkey · August 30, 2006

When do we get to the world where we look at each other as humans and not male/female?

When the world is full of androgenous, hermaphroditic blobs that are clearly indistinguishable from each other...

When do we get to the point that you can touch the same sex and not have to label it?

About the same time that having sexual contact with a man is the exact same thing as having sexual contact with a woman. Until then, it is what it is...

Hello - I am a so-called overcompensator. I am straight and - for the record - would "never, never, never, never, never, never touch another guy." I do not think there is anything more wrong with stating that fact than there is making the statements that you have made. It is my sincere opinion and my most honest self-evaluation.

Come on...

Do we really need another thread on this?

I know, I know - all questions/thoughts/ideas are welcome - and I support your right to post it, but these debates always start with some very ridiculous thoughts.

1. "Bisexual" is not a label that straight guys made up. It was actually borrowed from psychology. It is not a "label" as much as it is a simple descriptor.

2. Sexual Utopia - or open-minded-ness - is not defined by men being willing to have sex with other men. That may be YOUR definition of Utopia, but it is not mine. I am not a low brow, an idiot or a homophobe. I am simply unapologetically straight.

From a purely honest perspective - any person who desires sex with someone of their own gender is bisexual. The definition is: "a person sexually responsive to both sexes." So - we are not talking about labels here at all - but definitions.

Do you fit the definition?

If so... So what? Big deal... Party on... Be you... Enjoy yourself the way you are...

What I find highly insulting is the idea that it is somehow more enlightened to be bisexual. Frankly, I think it would be incredibly "unevolved" to be that which I am not - to be dishonest with myself.

Why do bisexual men feel a need to debate this point over and over? What are THEY compensating for? Do they need all men to admit some sort of bi-ness to feel comfortable with who they are? Why are they so afraid of being unique?

Rockme · August 31, 2006

You ask if we need another thread on being bi? The real question is do we need another long post from Spoomonkey claiming how “he is straight” to the world. I find it very interesting that about 98% of the “bi” threads I have read have a response from you! In fact when I wrote the thing I kept saying to myself how many hours before Spoomonkey jumps in on this one?! I knew you would!! I would think after saying the same thing over and over again to each “bi” thread you come across it would get old. Do you sit around waiting for another “bi” thread so you can announce to the world “I’m straight!” What are you so afraid of? You take a post that is 100% my opinion, which by the way I can feel anyway I want, and turn it into your form for word play. You can break down my post line by line all you want. You can stroke your ego and chaise people away. I stand by my original post. Not you nor anyone else will scare me away! You are not “bi”, GREAT! Stop hanging out on “bi” threads!! Or is this purely an ego trip for you? Are you into water sport, foot fetish, hair pulling and such? Why you ask? There have been threads done about those subjects as well. Why no wise words from Spoomonkey on those subjects? Why don’t I read “I ain’t no foot smeller” being posted by you? I would think you would want to make it clear on EVERY subject you don’t do or don’t agree with?!

This board is open for a wide variety of opinions and discussion. It is not warranted or proper to attack another person. You don’t like what I am saying, then just don’t respond to the thread. It is counterproductive to everyone to have to sensor they’re thought out of fear of attack. Most swingers live with that fear from the general public. We look to this as one of those places we can call home. All I can say is may your life and your future posts come under as much scrutiny. Maybe then you will understand?

BradAndJanet · August 31, 2006

... If you're bisexual but don't want to use a label, then describe your sexual orientation without using the term "bisexual". ...

I use the term 'pervert' myself.

I just like sex and the male body can be just as sexy as the female body. Like somebody said, it's not like every guy (or gal) is attractive to me, but if it feels right, it feels right, you know? Call me bi if you want, I just know what I like.

Chicup · August 31, 2006

You ask if we need another thread on being bi? The real question is do we need another long post from Spoomonkey claiming how “he is straight” to the world. I find it very interesting that about 98% of the “bi” threads I have read have a response from you! In fact when I wrote the thing I kept saying to myself how many hours before Spoomonkey jumps in on this one?! I knew you would!!

Liar you were expecting me.

And my my, you missed the entire point of Spoo’s post.

Spoomonkey · August 31, 2006

You can break down my post line by line all you want.

Cool, I'll give it a go...

You ask if we need another thread on being bi?

Yes - I did...

The real question is do we need another long post from Spoomonkey claiming how “he is straight” to the world.

No the "real" question is, why would you feel the need to bait those of us who are straight, specifically and expectantly wondering how long it would take for your post to illicit a response from me?

You did not post this thread as a question about bisexuality - you asked pointedly why the straight guys respond to these threads. Did you not want us to tell you why we do? Perhaps you started your thread for all the wrong reasons...

As long as the insinuation is that straight men are somehow less enlightened, less tolerant, less honest or less self-actualized than Bi-men, then I feel I have a right and a responsibility to challenge that.

So - you posted - I challenged. And I stand by my response, just as proudly as you stand by your first post. However, I would like to point out that my post does not question anyone's orientation as yours does

I find it very interesting that about 98% of the “bi” threads I have read have a response from you!

98%? Which ones have I missed?

In fact when I wrote the thing I kept saying to myself how many hours before Spoomonkey jumps in on this one?! I knew you would!!

It is flattering to know that you wrote your post with me in mind. I had you in mind when I wrote my response.

I would think after saying the same thing over and over again to each “bi” thread you come across it would get old.

Not really. I almost have this on a template...

The truth is, the SAME points are made about "labeling", "compensation", etc. And the same subtle inferences are always floating at some level beneath the surface...

My question to you is: why, if we have so many threads that make the same points, do we need to revisit it? I am completely okay with people asking the same questions as many different ways as they want to. Everyone either does - or believe they - have a unique take on the issue - so ask away...

But don't get pissy if I respond...

Do you sit around waiting for another “bi” thread so you can announce to the world “I’m straight!”

No - actually, I kind of roll my eyes...

What are you so afraid of?

Afraid is inaccurate...

Though this is a soap box issue for me because of the broken record feel of it all. Because it all comes back to the same thing, doesn't it? Just be you - without needing the validation. It's a good thing

For the record, I have no problems with bisexual men. In fact, I hang out with a group of homosexual men more than I hang out with straight guys. I wasn't looking for that, but they are great guys who I enjoy. Their sexuality is not a threat to me.

It is a source of humor - as is mine for them - but they are amazingly self-confident.

Oddly, they are completely comfortable with my straightness... I wonder why the bi-men around here can't be as open-minded as they are...

You take a post that is 100% my opinion, which by the way I can feel anyway I want, and turn it into your form for word play.

I responded with what is 100% my opinion, which by the way I can feel anyway I want... And I am not turning it into "word play". I am pointing out the difference between a definition and a label.

I would think trying to shirk the definitions is more "word play"... Right?

You can stroke your ego and chaise people away.

If I chase people away, I apologize. I have never said a bad word about bisexuals.

As far as my ego goes - I am not sure how much stroking it really needs, LOL

I stand by my original post.

Same here.

Not you nor anyone else will scare me away!

Good! That is not my intention. But as long as you are here, I will challenge your fallacies on this point.

You are not “bi”, GREAT!

I totally agree!

Stop hanging out on “bi” threads!!

Stop making assumptions about straight men and I will

Or is this purely an ego trip for you?

Not an ego trip at all... Just a matter of clarifying foggy thinking... A thing I tend to do anywhere that I feel I can have an input.

Are you into water sport, foot fetish, hair pulling and such?

Actually - just the hair pulling. I do have a minor foot fetish, but I mostly just enjoy giving foot rubs...

Why you ask? There have been threads done about those subjects as well. Why no wise words from Spoomonkey on those subjects?

Not always - but anytime they make a statement like "all people should be into water sports" I will speak up. Of course... Or have you not seen those posts? Perhaps reading every post I've made on bisexual threads has kept you too busy...

Why don’t I read “I ain’t no foot smeller” being posted by you? I would think you would want to make it clear on EVERY subject you don’t do or don’t agree with?!

Where is the "foot smeller" thread? I must admit, I missed that one...

But as for feeling like I need everyone to know my position on every "kink" - no. Of course I don't. But I do feel very compelled when people make baseless assumptions about people who do not share their particular interests - as you have done on this thread...

This board is open for a wide variety of opinions and discussion. It is not warranted or proper to attack another person.

No - it is not. If you felt attacked, I do apologize. Sincerely. However, let us make no mistake that this entire thread was made in the form of an attack. Was it not? Did you not begin your "thesis" by questioning whether or not straight men who post to bi-threads and make the point of saying they are straight are somehow compensating and afraid?

As you said - neither warranted or proper...

You don’t like what I am saying, then just don’t respond to the thread.

Well - that is just silly. Why would I simply not respond to that which I disagree with? What would be the point of having a board full of folks who simply go to the threads where they can pat someone on the back?

What an incredible resource that would be...

It is counterproductive to everyone to have to sensor they’re thought out of fear of attack.

Again - I do not believe that I attacked anyone. Please show me where I did... But - neither will I "censor" my thought.

Most swingers live with that fear from the general public. We look to this as one of those places we can call home. All I can say is may your life and your future posts come under as much scrutiny. Maybe then you will understand?

Oh... Okay...

Mr. Truelove · August 31, 2006

I think that there are many gay or bisexual men out there that feel a need to justify or validate their orientation by looking at what they have done and applying it to others so that they feel "normal".

Keep in mind that I am not saying that bisexuality is abnormal. I am stating that I feel that many bisexual men started out feeling it was wrong. Just as many women were taught the same thing.

For instance. If a person is bisexual, and they've hidden their feeling for a long time. Then they go through with it and like it, it becomes easy to assume that anyone that isn't bisexual is actually curious, but hiding it just as the bisexual male was.

I disagree with that. There are simply some people that aren't interested in men at all.

I also think that bisexual men look at the percentage of bisexual females versus males and think that the number should be the same and assume that more males are in the closet because it is still more "taboo" that being a bisexual female.

I think that is also incorrect.

The situation of Masculinity and feminism comes into play there. In my opinion, female on female contact (in the majority) tends to be a feminate act. Which is fine, women are expected to be feminine. However in my opinion, Male on Male contact tends to make one of the members feminine. Since that is a contrast to what would be normal that makes it more of a turnoff.

So it's my opinion then that Bisexualality in women should expectedly be more dominate than in males.

With this in mind I feel that many bisexual men, through the need to feel vindicated, will look at faulty bases of information and apply labels such as "homophobe" or "closeminded" to straight people unfairly.

To label us that is unfair. And many of us will stand up and voice our opinions on the matter for the same reason as if we had labelled you whatever.

Mr. Truelove · August 31, 2006

Oh, and I forgot to add that I am straight. And even though I might have gay friends, there is no way, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never that I would have feelings for a guy.

Rockme · August 31, 2006

“Stop making assumptions about straight men and I will.” I read my original post over again and could not find any “assumption towards you or anyone else.”

I want to do something that Spoomonkey is very found of. I want to repost my original post and break it down again the list of charges that Spoomonky has made. I want to find out what I am guilty of and not guilty of. On the charges I am guilty, I stand corrected. List of Spoonmonkey charges in his own words....

1. "Bisexual" is not a label that straight guys made up. It was actually borrowed from psychology. It is not a "label" as much as it is a simple descriptor.

(After review I don’t find at any time I said it was “a label made up by straight guys.” I am reviewing rather to give you the point on label vs descriptor. As you see, in this use, can be one in the same.)

2. Sexual Utopia - or open-minded-ness - is not defined by men being willing ot have sex with other men. That may be YOUR definition of Utopia, but it is not mine. I am not a low brow, an idiot or a homophobe. I am simply unapologetically straight.

(This gets a very big NOT GUILTY! I can find no talk of my definition of Sexual Utopia. I also find at NO time did I define Sexual Utopia. I also NEVER called you a “low brow, idiot or homophobe. Yes, you are an unapologetically straight man.)

3. What I find highly insulting is the idea that it is somehow more enlightened to be bisexual. Frankly, I think it would be incredibly "unevolved" to be that which I am not - to be dishonest with myself.

(Not guilty again of ever saying anyone is more “enlightened being bisexual.” I also, at no time, asked anyone to be something they are not! I never talked about “evolution” or being more “evolved” being bi. I at no time asked anyone to be “dishonest” with themselves.)

4. Why do bisexual men feel a need to debate this point over and over? What are THEY compensating for? Do they need all men to admit some sort of bi-ness to feel comfortable with who they are? Why are they so afraid of being unique?

(Never did I ask anyone to “admit their bi-ness”. Never did I say I was afraid of being different or unique in anyway. Compared to the number of posts on a wide variety of subject’s “bi” posts are small in number. As to “why we feel a need to debate this point over and over?” At no time did I present this as a debate. It was more of this is what I am and this is how I look at it. It was more a question of labels, then a debate aimed at straight guys. We also may talk about it over and over again to reach out to those who believe as we do. This post, shocking to you I know, was more aimed at those who think like I do. Those who understand what I am going through. Not at Mr. “Straight” Man!)

5. You did not post this thread as a question about bisexuality - you asked pointedly why the straight guys respond to these threads. Did you not want us to tell you why we do? Perhaps you started your thread for all the wrong reasons...

(Guilty on this point. I should have left my point about you and others making such a point of being “not bi” out. It did little to add to my post. The humor was lost I can see on you. So you get your first guilty out of me.)

6. As long as the insinuation is that straight men are somehow less enlightened, less tolerant, less honest or less self-actualized than Bi-men, then I feel I have a right and a responsibility to challenge that.

(Not guilty! At no point was it ever insinuated or flat out said that straight men are “less enlighten, less tolerant, less honest or less self actualized than bi men. In fact, I feel you should be ashamed of even making up such a charge!)

7. So - you posted - I challenged. And I stand by my response, just as proudly as you stand by your first post. However, I would like to point out that my post does not question anyone's orientation as yours does

(Not guilty! At no point and time did I ever “challenge” yours or anyone else's sexual orientation. In fact, you have challenged me and my sexual orientation with every charge you have made. With ever charge and generalization you have made about me and my lifestyle.)

Original post by Rockme

I have noticed a few things while reading MANY different posts on the subject of being “bi”. We seem to have a lot of people who are label happy. (Let me stop there. “Lot of people” Did I say “straight people” or “bi people”?) We have this desire to slap a label on people and situations. I have read questions like “I kissed another woman 10 years ago, does this make me bi?” or “during play with my woman another man’s penis hit my leg, does this mean I am now bi?” We want to attach a label to what happened out of fear. What is that fear we hold so deep down inside? Do we all have a fear of being “bi” and liking it?! Is it the fear that society has taught us that being “bi”, especially two males, is wrong? (This at no time singles out only males who are straight. In fact it uses a little humor to get the point across. These are all real subjects I have read while reading other threads. So, first paragraph, no attack on “Straight males”. No name calling. None of the charges show up.)

I laugh when I read those males whom almost over compensate in their posts on this subject. The ones who say “I’m not gay or bi and I would never, never, never, never, never, never touch another guy! My wife has touched another woman, but again, I would never ever, not in a million years, not unless you paid me a million dollars, touch another man.” (this is where #5 guilty comes in.)These same guys keep showing up on all the “bi” question posts. They feel it important to set the record straight before giving us their two cents. Almost like they believe someone will log on and say “HEY, I did not know he was gay or bi!!!” I may show up on some thread about “water sport”, but that does not mean I am into it. By reading other posts this is how we learn about thing. (End of paragraph two and still waiting for the “straight men are somehow less enlightened, less tolerant, less honest or less self-actualized than Bi-men.” It all must be coming soon.)

I don’t know about you but I can’t spend the rest of my life so worried about labels. When my wife and I play we go out to have fun. We connect with the other couple or person and have fun. We don’t sit around saying “tonight will be the “bi” night.” We go with the mood and what the other person or persons want. My wife is not “bi” at all. She makes this clear to those we play with. She does not want another woman making a move on her. But if another woman’s boob hits her arm during play she does not freak out and say “does this make me “bi” now?” When do we get to the world where we look at each other as humans and not male/female? When do we get to the point that you can touch the same sex and not have to label it? 99% of my sexual life has been with women only. I have had oral sex with a few men, period. If this makes me gay, bi or what ever other label you see fit, then so be it! I think I am someone who is open to the human touch. (End of original post and what happened? Where were the charges? This last paragraph talks about labels, my wife and I, and what I like. Maybe I get on the platform a little much with the “look at each other as humans and not male/female.” I know, in the literal sense, we need those basic labels. I understand what that means. Maybe I was speaking more for understanding and love, then literally doing away with all labels on earth. To use Spoomonkey’s famous talk about labels vs descriptors. Is male and female not a descriptor more than a label? Point is that at no time did this post attack anyone. The charges and attack led by Spoomonkey was not justified. Your way of life will go on my friend. My hope is we can put all of this behind us. Try not to be so sensitive about your life style and I will do the same. Maybe reread my post and understand where I am coming from. I have read a number of your posts on this and other subjects. The reason I knew you would have the biggest problem with this post was based on what I have read in you’re past posts on the subject. It was not written to attract you to the post or challenge you. But in the end I knew it would warrant a response from you. Enjoy your life my friend and lighten up!)

EvilMJ · August 31, 2006

As a "bi" woman I can give you a reason why I personally think labels have merit.

Because "bi" is such hazy gray area that most people are unsure of, sometimes clarifying what "bi" means to you as a person is helpful. To me, being bisexual means that you enjoy sexual contact with members of the same sex as well as the opposite sex. I enjoy men much more than women, but I do enjoy women.

It gets annoying (and I am sure people have seen me post this one before) when you get women (or men I suppose but I can't speak from that side of things) who say they are bi or imply they are bi but in the end they aren't. It leaves you confused and angry because they are misrepresenting themselves.

If you go into it saying "oh we don't like labels so we don't call ourselves bi or not bi" then I am probably not going to have much to do with you. It's not because you are not good people but if I don't have a clear sense as to where your head is before I get into things, I am not going to want to waste my time or put myself into a potentially embarrassing, uncomfortable position when play starts. I want a clear definition of where you stand. Are you fully bi sexual, are you just above the waist play, do you like just kissing women, are you 100% straight with no interest in bi sexual play at all? I do play with straight couples, I respect their sexuality and enjoy my time with them but they are clear from the onset where their boundaries are. I also don't play with every woman I meet either, it is just like being straight, I play with the people who attract me, but I make it clear to them from the beginning what will be happening or what will not be happening.

I also think that everyone has the right to post their opinion straight, bi or gay. It isn't fair to bash on Spoomonkey or any other straight man or women who feels compelled to post their opinion or comments. They have as much right to defend their sexuality/preference as much as anyone else. I have to agree with Goodtimes, when you make a comment like "everyone is a little bi" or wonder why straight guys have to state their are 100% straight, then they have the right to respond.

Dooode · August 31, 2006

Because "bi" is such hazy gray area that most people are unsure of, sometimes clarifying what "bi" means to you as a person is helpful. To me, being bisexual means that you enjoy sexual contact with members of the same sex as well as the opposite sex. I enjoy men much more than women, but I do enjoy women.

It gets annoying (and I am sure people have seen me post this one before) when you get women (or men I suppose but I can't speak from that side of things) who say they are bi or imply they are bi but in the end they aren't. It leaves you confused and angry because they are misrepresenting themselves..

I think that's where the Kensey Scale can really put to good use. Where a "0" is a completely hetero individual, a "1" would have mild bi-curiosities and may even act on them.

I don't think that a "1" is as much misrepresenting themselves as much as there is incompatibility between "1" and ... say, "3".

As a side-comment, it's funny to watch Spoomonkey and Rockme having a swordfight. Who says guys don't foreplay between each other?

Rockme · August 31, 2006

I think that's where the Kensey Scale can really put to good use. Where a "0" is a completely hetero individual, a "1" would have mild bi-curiosities and may even act on them.

I don't think that a "1" is as much misrepresenting themselves as much as there is incompatibility between "1" and ... say, "3".

As a side-comment, it's funny to watch Spoomonkey and Rockme having a swordfight. Who says guys don't foreplay between each other?

You are a funny man I am putting down that "sword". Some things are just not worth it. It does not change who I am and it does not change who he is. We both walk away saying "I proved my point!"

Chicup · August 31, 2006

I'm heterosexual, it is ok if you label me that

I think the real issue is that many bi-males still have the grade school issue of how males put each other down using terms like 'faggot' and the like. It is hard to maintain your manly image of yourself when you are having homosexual sex. Add to it that bi-male activity is not openly accepted in the lifestyle, and you get a very defensive subset of swingers who attempt to justify itself by claiming that those of us who are straight are somehow repressed. It is an attempt to make themselves feel better in their own insecurities.

It is this type of thing which keep Spoo, myself and others posting in the bi male threads. It is not that we give a crap what you do or feel threatened by you, but being a discussion board, we will point out when we think someone is wrong, and the idea that straight males are only straight out of fear or whatever is quite wrong.

Likewise a lot of new swingers come to this board for information. Swinging is a scary thing to start for most people, and you are worried about being forced into situations you are not comfortable. You don't know what type of people swing or what they are into. For these people, I think it is good to show them that it is possible to swing and be straight, even the females . I would not want to give them the wrong impression that male bi activity is the norm for swinging and scare them off from what could be a great experience for them.

So if you are a man who likes having sex with other men, good for you, I have no problem accepting that you like to do that and that other swingers do too. Just remember that there are also many men who have no desire to have sex with another man, it has nothing to do with our insecurities, and accept that we are not into what you are into.

Dooode · August 31, 2006

hahahaha Chicup!!! Hot damn! That was funny!!!

Believe me, Daddy: People are quite capable of making decisions on their own without any of yours or my influence.

I would not want to give them the wrong impression that male bi activity is the norm for swinging and scare them off from what could be a great experience for them.

Bisexuality is a personal decision every person (male or female) makes for themselves and you attempting to influence them is not going to alter their feelings, urges, curiosities or opinions.

I'm sorry. People do have their own minds. It's true!!

Sexually speaking, people can change sexual orientations throughout their lives. I know of a woman I swung with who lived a lesbian life, yet was bisexual by the time I met her. Personally, I was hetero and became a bisexual. Hetero women experiment with bisexuality and either enjoy it or not. Same with some men. Some people specifically join swinging to indulge in their bisexual interests.

... and it's all happening within the swinging lifestyle: behind closed bedroom doors, at swing parties, at clubs, on message boards and chat rooms all over the internet ... whether you feel obligated to protect them or not.

Scary, huh?

Mr. Truelove · August 31, 2006

hahahaha Chicup!!! Hot damn! That was funny!!!

Believe me, Daddy: People are quite capable of making decisions on their own without any of yours or my influence.

I don't think his point was making decisions for them. It was more or less showing them that this lifestyle is a representation of many people of different orientations.

Each orientation speaking up in these bisexual threads keep an even field so people get an accurate basis for their decisions.

So, with that being my assessment of what Chicup meant, then I agree with his post and don't feel he was attempting to be arrogant.

good times · September 1, 2006

Dito Mr. Truelove's take on Chiccup's post. If the only responses to these bi threads were other bi guys it would be easy for a newbie to the board to get the impression that one is expected to be bi to be a swinger. In reality, while bi-male activity is much more accepted now than it was just a couple of years ago, it is still pretty rare. Here in Reno just two years ago all of the local on-premise clubs had a rule that no MM activities were allowed at the clubs. Now, while it is still discouraged in the public areas at two of the three clubs it isn't banned anymore at any of them.

Dooode · September 1, 2006

If the only responses to these bi threads were other bi guys it would be easy for a newbie to the board to get the impression that one is expected to be bi to be a swinger.

And does this hold true for bi-women as well? How about swingers who practice BDSM? Are they fairly represented by these same responders?

The simple fact is that if you scan the responses to this particular topic, men AND women were responding to bisexuality, and not just to male bisexuality. The topic is fairly represented by those who were interested in bisexuality.

In reality, while bi-male activity is much more accepted now than it was just a couple of years ago, it is still pretty rare. Here in Reno just two years ago all of the local on-premise clubs had a rule that no MM activities were allowed at the clubs. Now, while it is still discouraged in the public areas at two of the three clubs it isn't banned anymore at any of them.

True 'nuff. Who knows where it will be in another 20 years? Is that good or bad? I honestly don't know.

I personally don't see sexes so much as I see people. If I find a person attractive, it doesn't particularly matter to me what their sex is. I know that's not how the hetero (and gay!) orientations work, but this is my own personal view.

I meet with bi-couples for the most part. I am a regular at bisexual house parties (where I am the only single amongst many bi-couples) 5-6 times a year. There is an upscale bisexual swing club in Ft Lauderdale I am DYING to go to. I have been to hetero clubs (both on and off-premises), hetero house parties, meet & greets, and have also met and practiced BDSM activities with couples, even met swingers at nudist resorts.

Is that the swing standard? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

People see and decide for themselves what's right for them in Swinging. Everyone is different. Some are soft swing. Some are hardcore. The Lifestyle is not iron-clad in any orientation or activity. If the Lifestyle is to be represented, represent it for what it is to YOU.

To do otherwise IS arrogant.

Umm ... in my humble opinion.

JustAskJulie · September 1, 2006

And does this hold true for bi-women as well? How about swingers who practice BDSM? Are they fairly represented by these same responders?

Sadly no. There is a double standard between bi-women and bi-men and it's been discussed here over and over again. While in general it is NOT the norm for guys in the lifestyle to be bi... in many cases it's so not the norm that it's just downright not accepted to the point that those who are bi are often afraid to speak up. Yet on the other end of the scale it is not only the norm for women to be bi but EXPECTED for them to be, to the point that many women who are new to the lifestyle and NOT bi do get scared off by the idea, thus posts that we've seen from woman asking if they will be accepted if they are not bi.

It's a bit strange isn't it that straight women and bisexual men in the lifestyle are basically put into the same boat as oddities and against the norm. Hell, I'm bi and I often feel pressured from other bi women, I'd hate to see how it would feel to be a straight woman in this lifestyle. I can imagine that she would feel even more pressured, and I would think that should a new couple come to the lifestyle and the first thing they find is the many threads we have here on male bisexuality they may be wondering to themselves the same question that women often end up asking "do I have to be bi to swing?".

Dooode · September 1, 2006

I can imagine that she would feel even more pressured, and I would think that should a new couple come to the lifestyle and the first thing they find is the many threads we have here on male bisexuality they may be wondering to themselves the same question that women often end up asking "do I have to be bi to swing?".

Julie:

I am the forum newbie around here and I find it hard to believe that swing newbies would be so gullible as to think that male bisexuality is a norm (if it was, I would be out of business and become "just another single guy"!! haha).

But if it's a site concern, perhaps we should have a forum specifically laid out for bisexuals to discuss bisexuality? As SpooMonkey indicated, it is a growing acceptance in the community, and even more women are curious today than they were 10 years ago.

It would be a good place for people to talk and realize "Hey, I'm not the only one after all!" and not interfere with mainstream swing themes.

An idea ...

reed&diana · September 1, 2006

Swinging is a scary thing to start for most people, and you are worried about being forced into situations you are not comfortable. You don't know what type of people swing or what they are into. For these people, I think it is good to show them that it is possible to swing and be straight, even the females . I would not want to give them the wrong impression that male bi activity is the norm for swinging and scare them off from what could be a great experience for them.

Whoa, just reading through this thread and this hit me like a ball bat. To me that says a lot about Chicup's attitude. If you have no desire for bi sex, that's fine, but why call bi males scary? Why are they any more scary to straight people than bi females. Bi males can respect boundaries just as straight people. The chances of a bi male tying you to the bed and having their way with you are very slim. My wife is bi but to my knowledge, she has not forced a straight woman to eat her.

Chicup · September 1, 2006

Whoa, just reading through this thread and this hit me like a ball bat. To me that says a lot about Chicup's attitude. If you have no desire for bi sex, that's fine, but why call bi males scary? Why are they any more scary to straight people than bi females. Bi males can respect boundries jsut as straight people. The chances of a bi male tieing you to the bed and having their way with you are very slim. My wife is bi but to my knowledge, she has not forced a straight woman to eat her.

No one is worried about being forced to do bi things. It is a simple belief that if a new swinger couple with a straight male were to think that male bisexuality was the norm in swinging, they may abandon swinging as 'not for them.' I'm sure there have been straight women who have done the same thing since at least some female bisexuality is the norm.

good times · September 1, 2006

My wife is bi but to my knowledge, she has not forced a straight woman to eat her.

So, have you ever been to an on-premise swing club? I recommend you go to one and have your wife go as a straight female. Look at all the bi-females through the eyes of a straight woman and chances are you won't be able to make the above statement in the future.

First, I will say that most, in fact the majority of bi-women are very respectful of straight women. Unfortunately, a small minority of bi-women are extremely scary to newbie straight women. Since this is a thread about labels I don't think it is inappropriate to say that we call them the "bi-furious" or "militant bi". These bi-women evidently believe that inside every woman there is a bi-women just waiting to be let out. They are more pushy and unresponsive to the desires of the straight woman who is their target, than the worst misbehaving single male in the lifestyle. And yes, they will often do things to a straight woman that is unwanted.

Here is an example, this happened to my wife a couple of years ago. She was standing in the bar of an on-premise club talking to a friend. One of the local militant bi-women who was always pestering her to try bi-play, dropped to her knees, grabbed my wife, and started licking her pussy. My wife immediately punched her in the top of her head as a reflex reaction.

Since then, any bi-woman that doesn't seem to be taking the hint from my wife will usually hear this story from other club regulars in the area, even after hearing that story, just a couple of weeks ago, a bi-woman tried sucking my wife's breast in the hot tub and actually bit her nipple pretty bad when my wife pulled away. Sad thing is, we see other straight women being hounded to "just give bi a try", often enough to say that it is a problem.

It is all nice for us to think that a newbie won't be gullible enough to think that, "you have to be bi to swing" when coming to the board for information about swinging. But I can still remember when we first started checking out swinging. We had no idea whatsoever what swinging was about, and I will admit for quite some time we thought that the woman had to be bi to swing. Lucky for us, we found this board and by reading everyone's posts here, the truth rose to the top.

EvilMJ · September 1, 2006

Good times is 100% correct about some of the Bi women you meet at a club or a dance. They can be downright aggressive to the point of scary!! It can be even worse when they find out you are bi, they come stronger than the creepiest of single men.

If I had been approached by some of those women when I first came to the club I think it would have been my last visit. I have seen them do some really rude aggressive down right unacceptable things trying to get women to play with them. Women like that turn me off completely. I was out dancing with a couple of women who I have played with in the past and the three of us got a little silly and started dirty dancing. Next thing I know some woman is grinding behind me, grabbing my breast and trying to kiss my next. Needless to say she learned pretty quick that just because I am dirty dancing with another woman, does not mean I want anything to do with her.

I guess when you aren't the norm you are always going to be treated differently. There is a couple in the club we go to that practice BDSM, and quite openly too. They are treated well by most people as they do not try to force their lifestyle on anyone, but I don't think they get as many partners because a lot of people are afraid of the concept. Even though I am pretty sure they would never do anything that would make someone else uncomfortable. In fact the male of the couple has been quite open about his attraction to me, it almost makes me feel bad turning him down because he is a very nice man but my husband isn't attracted to his partner and I don't want to play with him by myself.

It takes all kinds and in a perfect world we could say it doesn't matter what we call each other or what our preference is, but in the end I think it is important that we at the very least communicate what it is we are after and what our desires are so that no one gets the wrong impression.

bill&sabrina · September 1, 2006

So, have you ever been to an on-premise swing club? I recommend you go to one and have your wife go as a straight female. Look at all the bi-females through the eyes of a straight woman and chances are you won't be able to make the above statement in the future.

The above quote concerns one of two questions I have about this thread. First the quote. How is what you suggest going to change his wife? He said to the best of his knowledge she has never forced a straight woman to play with her.

My other question is about the reasons for straight men posting in a bi male thread. I have seen it suggested that this will keep from scaring off new straight men. I don't understand how this is effective. Don't people pass over the subjects that don't interest them? The subject of this post is vague, and could be confused as female bisexuality. One doesn't have to read very far into the original post, to see that male bisexuality is the main focus.

Sweet_Candy · September 1, 2006

Don't people pass over the subjects that don't interest them?

I sure hope people don't pass over any topic they're not familiar with. For those new to the lifestyle the best way to prepare ones self is to gather as much knowledge as possible before getting ones feet wet. It's been our experience that we've run into so many different situations we would have been not prepared for if we had not done our homework before hand.

JustAskJulie · September 1, 2006

No one is worried about being forced to do bi things. It is a simple belief that if a new swinger couple with a straight male were to think that male bisexuality was the norm in swinging, they may abandon swinging as 'not for them.' I'm sure there have been straight women who have done the same thing since at least some female bisexuality is the norm.

I know there have been couples with straight females who have abandoned swinging because of the overwhelming feeling that all females who swing are bi (or should at least be bi-curious). We've seen them post that very concern here as a reason for deciding to back away from swinging. We've also seen straight women leave this board because they felt they did not fit in either here or in the swinging world in general. I think that's pretty sad.

It's not an issue of just this board, but of the reality of swinging...and if it's already happening to straight women (where bisexuality among women seems to be a growing trend even in the mainstream vanilla world) then I can place a good bet that it would be even more the case among straight men if they felt that they were expected to be bi to swing.

So, have you ever been to an on-premise swing club? I recommend you go to one and have your wife go as a straight female. Look at all the bi-females through the eyes of a straight woman and chances are you won't be able to make the above statement in the future. First, I will say that most, in fact the majority of bi-women are very respectful of straight women. Unfortunately, a small minority of bi-women are extremely scary to newbie straight women.

The bi-furious women of which you speak do not behave that way just to straight women, but to bi women as well. These types of women are exactly why I stopped making attempts to swing as a single female. As a single female swinger it is assumed you are bi (and I am) and once it's confirmed it is like giving many of the bi female halves of couples permission to attack you. I left one social feeling completely violated BY OTHER WOMEN! Where it's expected that men ask before touching (and I will say that the husband of at least one of these women was almost as bad as she was) women don't seem to feel that they have to do that, not to men and not to other bi-females. The expectation from many bi-women is almost "oh you're bi, then you'll have sex with me".

There is a couple in the club we go to that practice BDSM, and quite openly too. They are treated well by most people as they do not try to force their lifestyle on anyone, but I don't think they get as many partners because a lot of people are afraid of the concept.

Another great point... and one that I can see overlapping to bisexuality quite well... especially bi men. And probably a good reason why many bi men may not be open about their bisexuality.

Again it is often assumed that if you are bi you can't play any other way. In a swap situation I would not have any problem if the other female were straight. I love playing with females but if I know she's not bi I'm not going to touch her. Period. End of Story. Because I don't want her to be uncomfortable. Unfortunately, most straight women would not want to play with a couple with a bi female because they would be worried the bi female might cross that boundary. And that is exactly what often happens with bi males as well. If others know they are bi they will probably not want to play with that couple for fear that he may cross the line and touch the other male. The really silly part is that in a swap situation there often occasions where the two men may touch or brush up against each other... and if both men are straight no one thinks anything of it. If one of them were bi they would assume he touched/brushed on purpose, whether it were true or not.

I realize I'm going back and for a lot between the two sides but it is a very double sided issues. I'm all for bi guys, if that is what they are comfortable with and want to do. What I'm not for is ANYONE straight, bi or gay trying to push their attitudes on other people... whether it's straight people saying that bi or gay people are WRONG, or bi or gay people trying to say that EVERYONE is bi and just hasn't realized it yet.

Don't people pass over the subjects that don't interest them?

Evidently not or we wouldn't get half the drama we see around here.

Chicup · September 1, 2006

My other question is about the reasons for straight men posting in a bi male thread. I have seen it suggested that this will keep from scaring off new straight men. I don't understand how this is effective. Don't people pass over the subjects that don't interest them?

While male bisexual activities do not interest me personally, if I were new to the lifestyle I'd want to know if these activities were common and expected. As such I would read any threads to know what I was in for.

As mentioned by others the over-aggressive 'bi' female (and bi is in quotes because I believe that many of these women are married lesbians, and that is not even my term for them, there were some that asked for that to be an orientation description on LL) can be a major turn-off to mildly bi and straight women at swinger events. Undoubtedly this type of behavior has scared away some couples from swinging.

If I had the same issues with bi males that the straight women have with bi females, we would not be swinging. Since the situation with bi-males is not the same as bi-females I see nothing wrong with pointing out to new couples that while there is male homosexual activity in the lifestyle it is not the norm and you will not see much of it unless you seek it out.

LetsParty · September 1, 2006

Hi all,

I just browsed through this thread... it got a bit heavy, though.

Back to the original topic about labels, I once found something interesting by some psychologist who created a "Bisexuality Chart". For all I know, it's discussed in another thread (I am an occasional lurker here, rare poster...)

Anyways, you take seven dimensions of sexuality (A to G), and on each one you rate it from 1 to 7, as follows:

For variables A to E: For variables F and G:

1 = Other sex only 1 = Heterosexual only

2 = Other sex mostly 2 = Heterosexual mostly

3 = Other sex somewhat more 3 = Heterosexual somewhat more

4 = Both sexes equally 4 = Hetero/Gay-Lesbian equally

5 = Same sex somewhat more 5 = Gay/Lesbian somewhat more

6 = Same sex mostly 6 = Gay/Lesbian mostly

7 = Same sex only 7 = Gay/Lesbian only

(oops, that came out messy! I guess Tabs don't work! ~ It's basically a two column list of things labeled one to seven)

Now, here are the variables:

A- Sexual Attraction

B- Sexual behaviour

C- Sexual fantasies

D- Emotional Preference

E- Social preference

F- Sexual lifestyle

G- Self-identification

So, each thing is rated on a seven point scale.

Almost NO ONE (Except that spoo monkey dude, of course) is PURELY Hetero or PURELY Homo.

You add up all the 1 to 7's on the chart, and you will have an answer from 7 to 49, in terms of how hetero/bi/homo you are.

Bisexuality is fluid. At some points in your life, you may lean towards 100% hetero, but at other points it may move a little, and vice versa.)

For me personally, for all the factors, I am very, very much on the left side. I just don't like men as much as women; I identify myself with heteros, my sexual lifestyle is 100% hetero (In a group setting, sadly to say, I even get weirded out if I accidentally touch a hairy arm!)... however, the "C" part - sexual fantasy - does move me up a few notches towards the right side of the scale.

I'm not sure if anything will ever happen into the future... my partner is not turned on at the prospect... but even though reality is a far cry from fantasy, it's always fun to imagine a hard cock ramming the back of my throat, and then swallowing all it has to offer. (Did I just type that???)

bill&sabrina · September 1, 2006

Both quotes and my response were about me asking, "Don't people pass over the subjects that don't interest them?"

I sure hope people don't pass over any topic they're not familiar with. For those new to the lifestyle the best way to prepare ones self is to gather as much knowledge as possible before getting ones feet wet. It's been our experience that we've run into so many different situations we would have been not prepared for if we had not done our homework before hand.

I was asking why would someone look into a subject they have no desire to be familiar with?

Evidently not or we wouldn't get half the drama we see around here.

One more quote, that responds to a question I asked in my first post.

I see nothing wrong with pointing out to new couples that while there is male homosexual activity in the lifestyle it is not the norm and you will not see much of it unless you seek it out.

I also see nothing wrong with this. I want to know why threads are hijacked to do it.

Chicup · September 1, 2006

I also see nothing wrong with this. I want to know why threads are hijacked to do it.

Because at some point a bi male or his protective wife, and I think it is in order to sooth their own insecurities, will start on the whole double standard, homophobic, non-enlightened, cultural taboo aspect of being 'straight' as a male comes up.

good times · September 1, 2006

The bi-furious women of which you speak do not behave that way just to straight women, but to bi women as well. These types of women are exactly why I stopped making attempts to swing as a single female.

That’s interesting because one of our friends who has listed herself in her profile and played as a bi-female for about three years just told us a couple of weeks ago that she was done with bi-play. Her reasons were the same as yours. The same night she told us this we witnessed her being continually harassed by the bi-furious female I referred to earlier that bit my wife’s nipple.

The interesting thing is that in 4 years of regular club attendance we have seen many single males sanctioned by the club management for touching without asking or exhibiting other undesirable behavior. In that same time we have never seen one of these bi-women sanctioned, and their behavior is often much worse than anything we have ever seen a single male do, it really is a double standard. I have to say though, that I understand why this happens, being a regular club attendee I understand club dynamics all too well. If a person complains to management about a bi-furious female the worst that will happen is she will get a minor talking to, and I suspect the person doing the complaining will probably be ostracized for it and labeled as a "homophobic". I may understand, but I cannot say I like it.

Almost NO ONE (Except that spoo monkey dude, of course) is PURELY Hetero or PURELY Homo.

I am curious, on what do you base this assumption?

I am as "purely hetro" as they come, and no, I don't even fantasize about same gender sex, and most of the males I know say they feel the same way.

Both quotes and my response were about me asking, "Don't people pass over the subjects that don't interest them?"

I was asking why would someone look into a subject they have no desire to be familiar with?

I think when people are trying to learn about something they are interested in pursuing but know very little about, they will be especially interested in reading threads that address activities that might go on, or be expected, that they are not interested in, I know I do. Let's face it their are many people like me that have the attitude of, "as long as I don't have to participate, and you don't try to force it on me, then I don't care what you are into." However, a large number of people find same sex activity so repulsive that they will not even put themselves in a position to see it. We in the lifestyle have gotten rather used to seeing FF activity, whether we like it or not, but a funny thing happened a short time ago at one of the clubs we attend.

This club is normally a gay bar, but once a month they host a swinger’s party. During this party the clubs regular patrons are not excluded, so their is an interesting mix of gays and swingers. On this particular night, several women were in a public area licking each other’s sensitive spots when a couple of gay guys decided that looked like a good idea and one of them started giving the other a BJ. The FF play immediately came to a stop and I thought it was kind of funny when one of the women involved told me how repulsed she was by what the gay guys were doing. It never occurred to her that their might be people present that were equally repulsed by what she was doing.

This club also highlights another thing that I find interesting, and that is how many people will not attend because they allow gays at the swinger’s party. The local swinger community is fairly tight nit. Their are three clubs in town and most all the regulars know each other. I would say about half of the club regulars will not attend the parties at the club where gays are allowed and freely admit that is the reason why they won't. Based on that I would suspect that a lot of people who come here will read these threads, if for no other reason than to find out if this activity will be expected of them if they pursue the lifestyle.

September 1, 2006

I am straight (put any numbers, prefixes or adjectives you'd like with that label, it doesn't matter to me)

To add my 2 cents to this thread, I have had a number of what Just ask Julie refers to as "bi-furious" females make it uncomfortable for me at my local club, and although I've handled the situations myself without resorting to complaining to the hosts, I suspect good times is right when he says "the worst that will happen is she will get a minor talking to, and I suspect the person doing the complaining will probably be ostracized for it and labeled as a "homophobic". "

Chicup · September 1, 2006

On this particular night, several women were in a public area licking each other’s sensitive spots when a couple of gay guys decided that looked like a good idea and one of them started giving the other a BJ. The FF play immediately came to a stop and I thought it was kind of funny when one of the women involved told me how repulsed she was by what the gay guys were doing. It never occurred to her that their might be people present that were equally repulsed by what she was doing.

I know several women who would fall into the same boat here, though none of them would be into public sex either. While the double standard is quite real, I've never met anyone in swinging where the female was straight AND revolted by FF activity (and never ever ever came close to finding a swinging male that was).

What she was doing was the swingers norm, accepted, and encouraged, what the men were doing was not.

What does interest me in this subject, is while on this board there are several women who talk about how much they would be turned on by MM activity, yet I've yet to meet any swinging who have said such a thing. They have all said the opposite really, and male bi-sexuality is something that they state is a turn-off, much like the woman in the above story.

So which is it? If you go by the internet, it seems that it is a majority that likes it, if I go by what I see in person, it is the opposite. Are people just more honest here? Does the board just have a skewed sample?

Mr. Truelove · September 1, 2006

Almost NO ONE (Except that spoo monkey dude, of course) is PURELY Hetero or PURELY Homo.

Where is the study that this information came from. Or is it something you just made up?

September 1, 2006

What does interest me in this subject, is while on this board there are several women who talk about how much they would be turned on by MM activity, yet I've yet to meet any swinging who have said such a thing. They have all said the opposite really, and male bi-sexuality is something that they state is a turn off, much like the woman in the above story.

So which is it? If you go by the internet, it seems that it is a majority that likes it, if I go by what I see in person, it is the opposite. Are people just more honest here? Does the board just have a skewed sample?

You may not have met a female swinger who was turned on by MM activity, but I have ... me!!

I've been a swinger for over 5 years, starting out as a single female, becoming a couple for a while, becoming a single female again for a short time, becoming a triad for a while, stopping swinging for a while, and now just starting to swing again as a couple. About 4 years ago, I was enjoying a threesome evening with two men: a male FWB and the male half of a couple I was swinging with who's wife also played with my FWB ... at one point in the evening (after they'd serviced me to the point of total satiation), I returned from the washroom to find the two men in a 69 position, enjoying each other in mutual fellatio ... I found it incredibly erotic and arousing and since I was truly too tired to contribute, I happily laid back and watched them play with each other.

I think taking any ONE group and considering their opinion to be THE ONLY opinion is naive. The board is only one group, and YES, it's opinion is skewed - it can't help but not be ... dissenting views are not encouraged, and those who agree with the "group" line are applauded and encouraged to speak up - but that doesn't mean the board (as a group) doesn't have an opinion worth having ... it does, of course, and I think the board is full of very intelligent, helpful people .. but I STILL think it'd be naive to think the board doesn't represent a skewed sample. (Just as a "for example" as to why the sample is skewed, the majority of posts on the swingers board come from an extreme minority of members - the vocal minority, if you will )

Just MY opinion

Pepper & Drew · September 1, 2006

So which is it? If you go by the internet, it seems that it is a majority that likes it, if I go by what I see in person, it is the opposite. Are people just more honest here? Does the board just have a skewed sample?

I think because of the anonymity factor, people are a little more honest here than they are in person. I don't think this board is a skewed sample.

Chicup · September 2, 2006

I think because of the anonymity factor, people are a little more honest here than they are in person. I don't think this board is a skewed sample.

I could understand men who don't' want to seem bi, but why would women hide it as a fantasy?

JustAskJulie · September 2, 2006

This club also highlights another thing that I find interesting, and that is how many people will not attend because they allow gays at the swinger’s party. The local swinger community is fairly tight nit. Their are three clubs in town and most all the regulars know each other. I would say about half of the club regulars will not attend the parties at the club where gays are allowed and freely admit that is the reason why they won't. Based on that I would suspect that a lot of people who come here will read these threads, if for no other reason than to find out if this activity will be expected of them if they pursue the lifestyle.

When you consider that some people are so repulsed by male bisexuality that they don't want to see it then you can then infer that they may also be reading threads regarding male bisexuality not just to see if it's something they will be expected to participate in but also to find out if it's such a regular occurrence that they will not be able to avoid having to see it.

So which is it? If you go by the internet, it seems that it is a majority that likes it, if I go by what I see in person, it is the opposite. Are people just more honest here? Does the board just have a skewed sample?

Probably and probably. I've found over and over again that this board tends to have a skewed sample of swingers in many ways. The most noticeable way is that the typical swingers here are those that focus beyond just sex. While some here aren't necessarily into friendship MOST aren't into just going out and screwing with no regards to who, just racking up numbers and notches as they go. That's just one example of how the sample of swingers on this site is different than a true cross-section of swingers... but I do also tend to think you are right that people are more honest here... and not because the people are more honest here but because we are on a message board and each have some level of anonymity, so a woman can say "yes I'm turned on by that" without fear of having someone give her a dirty look. Too often in real life are reactions are based on what we think others expect us to do... therefore you may actually have a woman who is completely turned on by male bisexuality and have a fantasy of seeing it... then when that really happens in a club situation as was posted earlier she may freak out because it's what is expected.

I could understand men who don't' want to seem bi, but why would women hide it as a fantasy?

Because they don't want to be judged for their fantasies... because their male partner has made it absolutely clear that he would never consider such a thing so don't bring it up, because their swinger friends have over and over again had a negative response when such topics have been brought up... that it's easier to go with the flow than to be honest about an innocent fantasy.

And to clarify, my completely straight boyfriend KNOWS that one of my fantasies is to see two guys together... for that matter so do any of my friends who know me well enough to know that I have a history as a swinger and a proclivity towards "untraditional" sexual interests.

September 2, 2006

I could understand men who don't want to seem bi, but why would women hide it as a fantasy?

... Because they don't want to be judged for their fantasies... because their male partner has made it absolutely clear that he would never consider such a thing so don't bring it up, because their swinger friends have over and over again had a negative response when such topics have been brought up... that it's easier to go with the flow than to be honest about an innocent fantasy.

Ditto to Julie's reply.

And the opposite of why men don't want to seem bi, I believe, is why more women than are actually bi DO want to appear bi (or bi-curious) ... because men LIKE their women to have bi-fem fantasies ... because so many men have told their female partners that they'd find it hot if their woman got it on with another woman ... that their swinger friends seem to all be into the girl-on-girl thing ... and that it's easier to go with the flow than to be honest about what their real fantasies are.

reed&diana · September 2, 2006

I would not want to give them the wrong impression that male bi activity is the norm for swinging and scare them off from what could be a great experience for them.

That is the line that got my attention. The fact the only bi males are singled out to be scary, not bi females. We do go to a club and to be honest we haven't had any problems with "bi furious" woman or men. That's not to say that it doesn't happen. If you are getting unwanted advances from someone in your club and security doesn't do anything about it, maybe you need to find a new club. They are not doing their job.

As far as Bi males go, look at the number of threads on this board and the number of threads about bi males. Probably less than 5% and those have many posts from straight males explaining why it is it is not for them. I can't understand why any newbies would read this board and come away with the idea that bi males are the norm.

I believe that most start out checking out the sites like SLS. They don't see bi males as the norm because there are very few bi males listed on profiles because of the perceived scariness. To many, a male listing themselves as bi or bi curious automatically means they are infected or they can't keep their hands (mouth) off of someone.

This has gone way too long a probably a little incoherent, it is late. Maybe some come into swinging because of the possibility of meeting bi males.

JustAskJulie · September 2, 2006

That is the line that got my attention. The fact the only bi males are singled out to be scary, not bi females.

I don't think scary is the right word... It's more about what is a reality and what is not. Why are bi females not singled out or said to potentially scare newbies? Because in reality bisexual females in the lifestyle IS the norm. Whereas bisexual males is NOT the norm. Therefore when someone is looking into this lifestyle and reading through various threads trying to figure out what they can expect, we want them to see the true side of what they can expect.

Is it right that what they are presented with is bi females is normal and bi-males is not? Not in my opinion. IMO the truth they should be being presented is that whatever you want to do is normal and accepted. Personally, I think male bisexuality should be just as openly accepted as female bisexuality and perhaps if more people were honest about their desires and feelings it might be more widely accepted.

What we should be presenting is - these are ALL the various ways that different people swing and YOU (the individual) choose how you want to do it. But that's just not swinger reality. In swinger reality, female bisexuality is not only normal and accepted but too often expected.... and the double standard exists that male bisexuality is not normal, or expected and very rarely is accepted.

WesternSwing · September 2, 2006

We have played with several couples in which the male was bi, and knowing I'm not the male never made any advances on me. In fact, we played with one such couple recently that we met at a party and only found out after the fact that he is bi when reading their profile a couple of days later.

If I could sum it up in one statement to newbies it would be:

There are bisexual males in the Lifestyle, however they are not the majority in an sense, and like many bi-women most are very polite and will not cross your boundaries if you are not into that. If you are not bi - being male or female - and someone else who is bi blatantly and without caring crosses your boundaries, then they are not the person or couple to play with. Bi-male, bi-female, it's all the same when it comes to playing and what your boundaries are, and they should always be respected just as you should respect others boundaries.

Sign In

Please Visit Our Sponsors

The need to "label" everything?

Recommended Posts

Rockme 15

Share this post

Link to post

Karmickiss 28

Share this post

Link to post

Dooode 18

Share this post

Link to post

SueRic 17

Share this post

Link to post

Rockme 15

Share this post

Link to post

good times 991

Share this post

Link to post

good times 991

Share this post

Link to post

Rockme 15

Share this post

Link to post

2jersey 16

Share this post

Link to post

Spoomonkey 421

Share this post

Link to post

Rockme 15

Share this post

Link to post

BradAndJanet 70

Share this post

Link to post

Chicup 42

Share this post

Link to post

Spoomonkey 421

Share this post

Link to post

Mr. Truelove 81

Share this post

Link to post

Mr. Truelove 81

Share this post

Link to post

Rockme 15

Share this post

Link to post

EvilMJ 65

Share this post

Link to post

Dooode 18

Share this post

Link to post

Rockme 15

Share this post

Link to post

Chicup 42

Share this post

Link to post

Dooode 18

Share this post

Link to post

Mr. Truelove 81

Share this post

Link to post

good times 991

Share this post

Link to post

Dooode 18

Share this post

Link to post

JustAskJulie 2,595