Religion and swinging. What are your beliefs?

[nice_cpl_n_bama 24]

Hi Everybody,

 

One of the big issues Laurie and I had to overcome before becoming active in swinging was our religious faith and it's teachings about sex. We spent a good bit of time researching to find that most of the stuff we'd been taught about sex was done for political reasons long ago or in a different culture that doesn't really apply today. This got me thinking. What is the spiritual identity of the swinging community?

 

Thanks for taking I moment to answer. It will help some research I'm doing.

 

Thanks,

Jeff

[Spoomonkey 421]

Well, as one who has posted quite a bit about my faith on the board, my current position is a bit of a one-eighty. My change, though has nothing to do with swinging as much as it has to do with my continued evolution as a person.

 

...Or is that evolution INTO a person???

 

Right now - I would say that I am somewhat agnostic. I definitely would say that I no longer consider myself Christian (mostly because of how Christianity has defined itself and sold itself).

 

But - I will say that having a degree in Bible and twelve years of paid ministry behind me, I completely understand the struggles a person would have reconciling what they have been taught with what they are wrestling with (i.e. swinging).

 

Personally, as much as I have said on the subject, I ultimately like what Intuition says about it the best, "God has more on His plate than who we have sex with." (Or something to that affect)

[nice_cpl_n_bama 24]

Thanks Spoo!

I'm deciding what to do with my faith right now. I could simply keep attending my church and just keep our other activities quiet. I could move to another denomination with more open views. I could attempt to form a group of like minded Christian people. Lots to think about.....

[Mr. Truelove 81]

Agnostic and atheism probably should have been different entries, but thats my opinion.

 

I had a pretty strict christian upbringing, but I am now agnostic.

[nice_cpl_n_bama 24]

Maybe so although I've heard it said that Agnostics are just chickenhearted Atheists. They don't want to offend the God they think doesn't exist just in case they're wrong.

 

Just kidding y'all.

 

In retrospect I should have listed Wiccan and Pagan as their own thing instead of just "Other" but it'll tell me what I want to know.

 

Thanks for answering.

[Dooode 18]

Good topic.

 

I am spiritual, but not of any organized denomination. God does have a place with me and, when done properly, aligns quite well with the swinging lifestyle.

 

I keep it simple: "God is love." And the attitude of acceptance and tolerance is extremely important.

 

Sure ain't friggin' easy sometimes tho!

[Mr. Truelove 81]

nice_cpl_n_bama said:

Maybe so although I've heard it said that Agnostics are just chickenhearted Atheists. They don't want to offend the God they think doesn't exist just in case they're wrong.

 

Just kidding y'all.

 

In retrospect I should have listed Wiccan and Pagan as their own thing instead of just "Other" but it'll tell me what I want to know.

Thanks for answering.

 

I just said that because agnostic and atheists are just as different as Christians and atheists, and because my prediction was a large number of agnostics/atheists replying.

 

But I've made polls where I realized I could have changed it a lot afterwards and there just isn't much you can do. =P

 

I'm not really a chickenhearted atheist. As I first broke away from my church I felt like I might have been an atheist. But all the alternatives in science that we know of have a lot of gaping holes that we just don't know the answers to. (What exactly is gravity?) In the end all I can really say is there is truth in many aspects of Science and religion, and also a lot of unknowns. Perhaps I am in an undecided category, but agnostic fits it pretty close.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

 

I had a pretty strict christian upbringing, but I am now agnostic.

 

Ditto! I'm agnostic because I just really don't care enough to define myself. I don't believe in Christianity or religion as a whole, and in the end TO ME it doesn't really matter if there is a god or not. I don't know and I don't claim to know one way or the other. Personally, I think Agnostics are much more realistic than either Atheists or Christians because at least they can say they don't know... whereas both Atheists and Christians claim to know something they really can't know. I guess one thing both sides have in common is FAITH... and I guess us agnostics just don't have any.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Thanks Spoo!

I'm deciding what to do with my faith right now. I could simply keep attending my church and just keep our other activities quiet. I could move to another denomination with more open views. I could attempt to form a group of like minded Christian people. Lots to think about.....

 

You might want to take a look at the Liberated Christians Website - http://www.libchrist.com

It's really the best place that I know of for help on trying to merge the two ways of thinking.

[Mr. Truelove 81]

I guess one thing both sides have in common is FAITH... and I guess us agnostics just don't have any.

 

You hit the nail on the head there Julie! Exactly how I feel.

 

I do believe that in the end, religion is typically a good thing. You have people in the world that can't seem to make the correct choices. Many of them end up living in poverty or worse yet jail. But if a person makes most of his decisions according to the basic values in the bible, then that person should have a better chance at making good decisions. So it is in this aspect that, even as an agnostic, I feel religion is a great thing for society.

 

On a side note I just watched video earlier where they were poking fun at religion. And one of the people said, "As it is written in the bible, every word of which is true. And we know every word is true because the bible says that the bible is true and if you remember from earlier in this sentence that every word in the bible is true.... "

[WesternSwing 504]

Mrs. WS and I are Wiccan/Pagan. I add the slash mark because all Wiccans are Pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan. Make sense.

 

We were both raised in Christian denominations, I Greek Orthodox and her Southern Baptist. Both have a great deal of guilt built into them, but the Greeks seems to ignore it better. Mrs. WS battled for many years of our marriage with the guilt instilled upon her by her mother and the Baptist teachings. She was brought-up believing everything below the waist was dirty, which she never really believed, but caused allot of internal conflict for her because everything she was taught and everything she knew to be true were two completely different things.

 

We both were Pagan when we met, so it worked out well that way. My mom was very much into New Age ideals and drifted herself toward Pagan beliefs, taking me with her in my teens.

 

Mrs. WS was a practicing Wiccan when we met and I liked the ritual aspect of it as well as the idea of "An ye harm none, do as ye will" ideal. The idea of no religion is the only path and being very accepting of others. I guess I got tired of being angry, feeling guilty, and being critical of others all the time. I am much more relaxed now. It was very easy to blend my already Pagan, Earth-based beliefs into Wiccan.

 

We don't have any problem reconciling swinging with our faith since in Wiccan/Pagan belief sex, and especially women, are highly revered and a natural part of our being. A passage at Religious Tolerance.org says it best:

Quote

Human sexuality: Sexuality is valued, and regarded as a gift of the Goddess and God, to be engaged in with joy and responsibility, and without manipulation. Wiccans generally accept the findings of human sexuality researchers that there are three normal, natural, and unchosen sexual orientations: heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality.

We even have a Sabbat that could be considered a "swingers holiday": Beltane, now known as May Day. This was a Pagan fertility celebration on the last day of April and first day of May. At this time the Earth was coming alive with plants, flowers, baby animals and birds, etc. For the young it was time to meet, flirt, and party, kind of like a prom is now For the older married couples it was a time when they could remove their wedding rings - and the restrictions they imply - for one night.

 

We are now very comfortable with ourselves and our lives. We take very seriously the idea of "as you harm no others, do as you will" and live our lives as such. This harm could be physical or emotional. And to us, sex between consenting adults is not harmful to anyone.

[Mike and Jan 20]

Hey, just did a search on 'Beltane' that Westernswing mentioned. Interesting, very interesting. Sure didn't know that.

 

I'm an atheist and my wife is agnostic. Works pretty well.

[JTcamp05 9]

Funny that this topic comes up today..... Without quoting biblical references.....one can start reading Genesis and find out very quickly Abraham giving up his wife to another man passing her off as his sister. Ohhh and by the way the other man is punished who didnt even know he did anything wrong. Abraham packs up he freshly screwed wife and off he goes with all the blessings. I didn't recount this story to argue a point, guess my point is that there are so many storys and they can be taken many different ways. One can argue points for this or that belief and who is to say which is right.

 

We personally are some what religious, we attend church when we can, we have faith, and belive in the vaule of religion. However we feel comfortable with our choice of lifestyle. One can say you can't have one with the other, but that is not so, to us at least. We know who we are and realize that this wouldnt make us the most popular people in church, but the same time are ok with that.

 

Like anything else mabye someday we will change or mabye we won't, life is a journey and we decided to enjoy it.

[sexyshelby 19]

I dito Julie and Mr. Truelove. I was raised Catholic until my teens when we moved overseas and stopped attending church. But for me, even at a young age, I never bought into it. It just didn't seem right to me. Personally, I don't believe in religion.

 

~SS

[intuition897 2,179]

I'll try to keep this post fairly short as I've gone into this at length on other threads, but I just thought I'd voice my view of things.

 

I am a "practicing Christian" although I use the terms "practicing" and "Christian" lightly. I firmly believe that one's faith is a highly personal part of who they are. Therefore, I do NOT believe that it is any human being's place to judge the beliefs of another. The only time we should ever become involved in that is if that person is harming himself or others with those beliefs. That's where the "practicing" part comes in. I also firmly believe that life is wasted if it is lived solely in pursuit of personal pleasure and happiness, and that meaning in one's life can only be derived from the devotion of one's life to the service of others. The life of a servant. This is all stuff from the Bible.

 

Now the problem I have with calling myself Christian is much the same as Spoomonkey's. I just don't want to associate myself with something that has gotten such a bad rap. Much like swinging, real Christianity has been lost in the agendas and propaganda of human selfishness, and people believe what they've heard about it...not what they've found out for themselves.

 

The truth is that Christianity is actually one of the most liberal religions going! As (I think) the apostle Paul said, "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable." This fundamental truth resonates throughout all religions in various wordings. For example in the Wiccan religion (correct me if I'm wrong) it's "Do as ye will, an harm none." In other words, the bottom line is quite simply "Do not do harm!" This means to one's self, to others, or to one's environment. We are supposed to be a positive force on this world, never negative. If everyone just did this, even just once a day, the world would look much different. Because doing good for others is contagious. I've found the high FAR outreaches and outlasts the high of getting what you want for yourself. These are Jesus' teaching for living an abundant, healthy, balanced, joy-filled life.

 

And for Mr. intuition and I, swinging arises from this teaching. Weird, eh? But it's true. In my desire to live the life of a servant, this means putting off my own insecurities and fears, and trusting my husband with the most precious gift I have: his life. He gave it to me, and it is the most precious thing I own. I say 'own', because it was his gift to me. He has declared that HIS life is devoted in service to MY life. My gift is to give it back to him to use as he pleases. If I keep it - his life, his sexuality - it will stay locked in a little cage because I cannot use it. But if I give it back to him, then it becomes all the more precious because he puts the life back into it. Does anyone understand what I mean? Or am I just babbling here? :P I know it might sound like nonsense, but I know what I'm trying to say. Just not sure if it's coming across right.

 

So anyway, this is why I don't have a problem with swinging and my faith. God isn't nearly as demanding as people suppose. His yoke is easy and the burden is light, as Jesus said. All he's asking you to do is the right thing, and the right thing is to simply love other people as you love yourself. See other people as God sees them, ignoring what they DO and being concerned for the person locked inside that life that they are living. By doing this you honour God, and he is pleased. He doesn't expect perfection, but He does expect your best effort.

 

So that's my blurb. No BS, no games...no labels. It just is what it is. I go to a Christian church because it is the closest to what I believe, however, I tend to sit in the back pews and remain somewhat detached from everyone. I do not desire to be "assimilated". I don't need to believe exactly what they believe in order to fellowship with them. If they believe that everyone must have the same beliefs, then I simply stay quiet about my beliefs. I do not want to offend anyone; I just want to be around other people who are devoted to serving God as best they can. I don't know what anyone thinks about that, but I personally don't feel that it's hypocritical for a swinger to walk into a church and say that they are Christian. Not if they truly believe it.

 

EDIT>> So much for keeping it short.

[warkman 31]

I don't know and I don't claim to know one way or the other. Personally, I think Agnostics are much more realistic than either Atheists or Christians because at least they can say they don't know... whereas both Atheists and Christians claim to know something they really can't know. I guess one thing both sides have in common is FAITH... and I guess us agnostics just don't have any.

 

This about says it for me. Anyone who is dead sure about the way everything works is WRONG! I'm DEAD SURE of this. I have a feeling that there are many practicing people of all faiths who have doubt to one degree or another. Seeing "truth" be so many different things to so many different people seals the deal for me. Trusting human beings to give me the absolute skinny on God seems dangerous. If and when I have my own personal

"revelation", things may be different. I'd like to believe in a benevolent God who kindly and lovingly guides people, but from what I've seen empirically, Darwin seems to be more on track. I'm not particularly happy about that though.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Jeff, You may want to check out this thread for more on this subject. The poll divides out the various religions a bit more and it's been up a little longer so it'll give you a better overall idea of the numbers.

[Chicup 41]

If you are looking to see who swingers are, I think you will find most are agnostic but only because most of the public is agnostic these days in the western world.

 

I've been an atheist since I was 8 years old but it has nothing to do with swinging or my motivations.

 

The way I'd look at it if I were still a believer, is God wants us to be happy, if this makes us happy and doesn't cause others harm, how could it be wrong?

 

I also use the same argument for bacon....mmmmm bacon.

[dinkydow4us 15]

I was raised christian and was taught sexual shame at an early age. What I now find amazing as I think back on it, my parents seemed to enjoy sex ( lots of sunday after noons with the bedroom door closed) Now as an adult I still believe in God, but, I don't believe he's catholic, jewish,christian,muslim or anything else. These titles were dreamed up by men to promote their own ambitions to gain power If everyone would at least try, to live by the " do unto others rule",this would be a nicer place for everyone, no matter what your beliefs are Well, thats my nickles worth Good luck to everyone. D. D.

[Hapycmpr 16]

To quote George Carlin...

 

"I was raised Catholic...until I attained the age of reason."

[warkman 31]

The only time we should ever become involved in that is if that person is harming himself or others with those beliefs. That's where the "practicing" part comes in.

 

For example in the Wiccan religion (correct me if I'm wrong) it's "Do as ye will, an harm none." In other words, the bottom line is quite simply "Do not do harm!" This means to one's self, to others, or to one's environment. We are supposed to be a positive force on this world, never negative.

 

A problem arises though when people (and how many of them) sincerely believe harm is being done and want to do something about it, while others think less or nothing of it. It's the difficult pursuit of "universal truth." I just had to laugh when the new pope warned people of the dangers "subjective morality." I'm afraid subjective morality and/or truth is something with which the human race is forever stuck. Science helps solve some physical mysteries but doesn't go far into spiritual ones. I like the fact that scientific theoretical belief can change given more study, observation and information. But when you're dealing with the "WORD OF GOD" no growth/change can really occur because that is the final word. That's why I think so many people have to choose to interpret "the word" differently - unless of course God changes His mind from time to time.

[nice_cpl_n_bama 24]

Thanks for all the great answers everybody. I'm coming to the conclusion that the belief system that is called Christianity today is nothing like the original church. Laurie and I have always been churchgoers but also always outsiders in the church world.

 

In my view the true teachings of Christ are about loving and caring for those around you. To put it simply, Don't hurt people. So much of modern Christianity is so willing to inflict casual cruelty on others because they dare to see the world differently.

 

When I see groups like Fred Phelps and his "God hates fags" church I want to run and hide. I don't know how he can read a passage like "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and then inflict emotional agony on families who have lost a loved one.

 

Laurie and I are seriously considering starting a fellowship group based on our understanding of the teachings of Christ. We're not quite ready to jump yet because it will mean being branded as heretics by friends. I firmly believe that the rise of agnosticism is a direct result of the church trying to teach traditions with no true biblical foundation as fact. The contradictions with reality cause thinking people to raise a skeptical eyebrow.

 

I'll continue thinking on this and if we get the nerve to launch a group we'll post an invitation here.

 

Thanks!

Jeff and Laurie

[nice_cpl_n_bama 24]

BTW, Laurie and I now class ourselves as "recovering fundamentalists." We were never the really annoying type of fundies. We only oppressed ourselves.

[JTcamp05 9]

Intuition........ very well spoken...... You don't have to "give up" swinging because you want to have religion in your life.

[intuition897 2,179]

warkman said:

A problem arises though when people (and how many of them) sincerely believe harm is being done and want to do something about it, while others think less or nothing of it. It's the difficult pursuit of "universal truth." I just had to laugh when the new pope warned people of the dangers "subjective morality." I'm afraid subjective morality and/or truth is something with which the human race is forever stuck.

Yup, I believe that. Subjective morality is all we've got! Really, whose opinion am I supposed to believe is almightier than my own?? My versions of reality and morality is just as valid as anyone else's who strongly believes it.

 

Quote

Trusting human beings to give me the absolute skinny on God seems dangerous.

Exactly! All we're left with are the tools God gave us to make sense of the confusing array of human behaviours and the physical and spiritual world we live in. Chief among those tools is wisdom. Some people have it naturally, and others gain it by experience...and by recognizing it in others. God gave Solomon a whole shitload of material wealth (including something like 700 women) because he asked for wisdom with which to rule his people. It took innate wisdom to think to ask for such. Innate wisdom is nothing more than common sense, and a desire to uncover the truth, whatever that may bring.

 

warkman said:

Science helps solve some physical mysteries but doesn't go far into spiritual ones. I like the fact that scientific theoretical belief can change given more study, observation and information. But when you're dealing with the "WORD OF GOD" no growth/change can really occur because that is the final word. That's why I think so many people have to choose to interpret "the word" differently - unless of course God changes His mind from time to time.

I can appreciate that. People are natural labelers. We know more than we were designed to know and this is our flaw. Our response is to try and label the world to make sense of it. Even though I love nice_cpl_n_bama's idea of starting their own worship group, by simply starting that group, you get a label. Either people inside it start trying to list those things they share in common in order to define the group, or at the very least, you get labeled from the outside as "heretics" or fence-sitters as my Mom might say. Fence-sitters refuse to "commit themselves" to any definition and are wishy-washy in their convictions. That s her opinion. She's not Catholic, but she admires the fact that they choose to take a stand on tough issues, one way or the other. Personally, I'd much rather just admit that I do not know or understand something than form an opinion about those things that even the reaches of science cannot prove. I like to believe that eventually we will know every mystery in the afterlife. We'll know the truth about JFK's assassination. We'll know where Jimmy Hoffa is. We'll know about Jon Benet Ramsey's murderer. We'll know whether the light comes on or not when the fridge door is closed. And worse yet, everyone will know every dirty thought you ever thunk. Believing this is the only way I can keep from driving myself crazy with the questions.

[Rockme 15]

Spoomonkey said:

Well, as one who has posted quite a bit about my faith on the board, my current position is a bit of a one-eighty. My change, though has nothing to do with swinging as much as it has to do with my continued evolution as a person.

 

...Or is that evolution INTO a person???

 

Right now - I would say that I am somewhat agnostic. I definitely would say that I no longer consider myself Christian (mostly because of how Christianity has defined itself and sold itself).

 

But - I will say that having a degree in Bible and twelve years of paid ministry behind me, I completely understand the struggles a person would have reconciling what they have been taught with what they are wrestling with (i.e. swinging).

 

Personally, as much as I have said on the subject, I ultimately like what Intuition says about it the best, "God has more on His plate than who we have sex with." (Or something to that affect)

 

Well said! I agree with 99% of what you have said.

[2lookinforfun77 15]

Well said intuition. You have described very eloquently (more so than we) the Christian life we are following. We're part of a church because the people there represent a community that believes and practices many things that line up for us. We are swingers for the same reason. We believe that Jesus left us with two very firm principles...paraphrased: "love God" and "love others as you love yourself."

[warkman 31]

And worse yet, everyone will know every dirty thought you ever thunk.

 

Oh dear!! Surrender Hopefully there will be so many others with the same or dirtier that I'll disappear into the "chatter."

[Mike and Jan 20]

I was listening to NPR (national public radio) yesterday and they had an interview with a man who recently wrote a book about separation of church and state.

 

He made a comment that really got my attention. He said that in the Northern part of the country that what religion you were was seldom brought up in conversation with new acquaintances, but in the South it was one of the first questions.

[WesternSwing 504]

Mike and Jan said:

I was listening to NPR (national public radio) yesterday and they had an interview with a man who recently wrote a book about separation of church and state.

 

He made a comment that really got my attention. He said that in the Northern part of the country that what religion you were was seldom brought up in conversation with new acquaintances, but in the South it was one of the first questions.

It is virtually the first question in Utah also. There are even t-shirts that are popular amongst the non-Mormons here that parody it with "What ward are ya' in?"* printed on them. It is an easy question that separates the Mormon faithful from the "Gentiles" in the community and just lets the Mormons know who they are dealing with up front.

 

* For those not familiar with how the system works here, there is X-amount of Wards per Stake, and so may Stakes per Temple. So you might have 10 Wards per stake and 10 Stakes per Temple, so in essence you'd have 100 Wards per Temple.

[WesternSwing 504]

intuition897 said:

The truth is that Christianity is actually one of the most liberal religions going! As (I think) the apostle Paul said, "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable." This fundamental truth resonates throughout all religions in various wordings. For example in the Wiccan religion (correct me if I'm wrong) it's "Do as ye will, an harm none." In other words, the bottom line is quite simply "Do not do harm!" This means to one's self, to others, or to one's environment. We are supposed to be a positive force on this world, never negative. If everyone just did this, even just once a day, the world would look much different. Because doing good for others is contagious. I've found the high FAR outreaches and outlasts the high of getting what you want for yourself. These are Jesus' teaching for living an abundant, healthy, balanced, joy-filled life.

You are completely right. It's amazing how the teachings of so many religions are EXACTLY the same but the wording is different. Yet we then fight about which one is the RIGHT religion.

[nice_cpl_n_bama 24]

WesternSwing said:

You are completely right. It's amazing how the teachings of so many religions are EXACTLY the same but the wording is different. Yet we then fight about which one is the RIGHT religion.

I've come to think that religions are just ways of relating to the spiritual life that is common to all. There is so much similarity because we are all describing the same thing. I'm a Christian and always will be because that's the language that speaks to me.

[nice_cpl_n_bama 24]

Hi Y'all,

With 55 votes in, it seems that about 55% of us are Christians. Here's the next question, Of those who are Christian would you be interested in a fellowship group of sexually liberated Christians?

[Spoomonkey 421]

nice_cpl_n_bama said:

Of those who are Christian would you be interested in a fellowship group of sexually liberated Christians?

 

I would say that it would interest me - but I do see a couple problems with it:

 

1. It would be very hard to find a big enough group to have a consistent fellowship (unless it was virtual, which would present its own problems).

 

2. Virtual or real, there would be folks more interested in the "sexually liberated" part than the "Christian" part. There is a Yahoo group that is Christian Swingers and it seems like a lot of their files and imagery are almost a bit of mockery - and not a properly blended reverence for both sex and faith.

 

Aside from that - before I started exploring other possibilities, that might have been something that interested me. But, I would have had very little time for a virtual group.

[Bad Sandy 15]

posted about this before, but if you are struggling to reconcile swinging with christianity please read "Divine Sex" by Philo Thelios. Very eye opening. The Bible is FULL of people having sex with multiple partners with out God so much as batting an eye!

[ohash01 20]

I was raised Catholic and suppose I still call it my religion...but occassionally it makes me want to bash my head against the wall for the reason listed above.

 

I feel like the Catholic religion has picked around the parts of the bible they don't LIKE and they just ignore it. What? Huh? No one REALLY has sex with anyone other than their spouse... *hits head on the desk* I was hanging out with friends last weekend and we were arguing (playfully) about the difference between "coveting thy neighbors wife" and swinging. My argument was based bascially on the semantics of "coveting". –verb (used with object)

1. to desire wrongfully, inordinately, or without due regard for the rights of others: to covet another's property.

 

I believe we all give due regard to all parties involved and that our desire is not wrong. Therefore, swinging = not against a commandment. And oh all how my friends went crazy over that argument.

 

I am very interested in that book. I may have to pick it up. Because I KNOW there is a ton of stuff in the bible that my classes and church ignored. It may be fascinating to attempt to read it just as a piece of literature.

[WesternSwing 504]

ohash01 said:

I was hanging out with friends last weekend and we were arguing (playfully) about the difference between "coveting thy neighbors wife" and swinging. My argument was based basically on the semantics of "coveting". –verb (used with object)

1. to desire wrongfully, inordinately, or without due regard for the rights of others: to covet another's property.

 

I believe we all give due regard to all parties involved and that our desire is not wrong. Therefore, swinging = not against a commandment. And oh all how my friends went crazy over that argument.

I agree, I've debated this same subject with people before. Problem is, people don't understand the words involved. From Merriam-Webster:

 

Covet: v. to desire (what belongs to another) inordinately or culpably.

 

Culpable: adj. Deserving of blame or censure as being wrong, evil, or injurious.

 

I don't see where swinging, which is with the permission and encouragement of all parties involved, and all parties involved are having a positive experience, not being injured, has anything to do with swinging.

 

Of course, this brings up the topic of adultery. Although the dictionary defines adultry as:

 

n., Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

 

When read in the Commandments it is tucked-in with:

 

You shall not murder.

 

You shall not steal.

 

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

 

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

 

I think if you read the context of the Commandment, not just the words, it is pretty clear it is in regards to stealing and cheating your neighbor out of anything, including wife, slaves, animals, money, furniture, tools, etc. In those times, a wife was basically another piece of "property" owned by the man of the household and is lumped-in with other property in this Commandment with slaves, oxes, donkeys, and "anything else that belongs to your neighbor."

 

Of course, in Biblical times it was acceptable (and still is in many places) for the husband to have a mistress or to visit the town prostitute for recreational sex and the wife was to remain pure and was intended only for procreation sex. This is where historians are important in defining the times, culture, and attitudes of the people at the time documents of any kind were written.

[LFM2 1,482]

I was raised Catholic and suppose I still call it my religion...but occassionally it makes me want to bash my head against the wall for the reason listed above.

 

Mr. LFM and I were both raised Catholic. We've brought our children up in the Catholic faith, yet, we use one of those defence mechanisms that we've learned innately and can justify swinging in our lives. We haven't been to church in a long time, yet our children still go. That's fine for us. I'm sure the priest would shit his knickers if he knew about our lifestyle, but I feel that if we're not hurting anyone, we're doing OK. We love each other passionately, which is entirely better than the one couple we know which both spouses are having an affair. Yes, more justification.

 

I really do believe that God just wants us to do our best without hurting anyone. We don't live our lives badly. We treat our fellow man like we would like to be treated.

 

Intuition always speaks so eloquently in her posts and this is no exception. She explains her reasoning and they pretty much echo ours.

[SuAndBud 23]

If everyone were Buddhist, the world would be a far better place.

 

Buddhism is not a religion as such in that no deity is worshipped, it's more a philosophy.

 

In a nutshell, enjoy your life to the full (in whatever way you find pleasureable) providing you don't hurt others in the process.

 

Karma.

[LFM2 1,482]

SuAndBud said:

If everyone were Buddhist, the world would be a far better place.

 

Buddhism is not a religion as such in that no deity is worshiped, it's more a philosophy.

 

In a nutshell, enjoy your life to the full (in whatever way you find pleasurable) providing you don't hurt others in the process.

 

Karma.

 

I like that philosophy!

[Kycouple4fun 15]

Note: Haven't read entire thread so I might be mentioning something that has been said.

 

I noticed along time ago that religion was twisted long ago to justify a person or group of people's insecruities about sex. To put down and control women (in alot of prodestant sub groups that is, who tell women how to groom and dress) without an reguard for thier rights as individuals. To ensure stagnet growth in children ("spare the rod spoil the child" has long been the motto of abusive parents) by making them feel less than what they are capable of. I have seen the statement refering to "God's will" twisted and perverted to the point that people honestly believe they can't do anything to improve thier lives and must suffer for no reason. Yet with all that I am still a christian, why, simple, this is the way people distort things, not the religion.

 

It takes some work but when looking at the actual religion alot of people have it very wrong (While I generally don't make statements like that, it really is a sad situation that people don't pay attention to the book they worship and that the rich deacon who is overseeing theier church is way off base when he takes one statement out of context).

 

Anyway I gues my point is that (and I try to avoid generalizations on this really but it is very hard to) the religon isn't responceible for the followers stupidity.

[Mr. Truelove 81]

Anyway I gues my point is that (and I try to avoid generalizations on this really but it is very hard to) the religon isn't responceible for the followers stupidity.

 

My problem with Christianity at this point is that the entire religion is based on a book written by followers. Which from what we see can be pretty twisted. Not only that but that same book was also only written by the rich that were in power...(back in those days reading and writing was a thing for the wealthy.)

 

So putting your faith in the bible is the same as putting your faith in those people that wrote it, and I just can't do it.

 

To each their own though.

[discoandvyper 15]

Like Spoo, I have behind me an ordained period where I performed religious rites to a Baptist congregation after a lengthy period of education in Theology. I've left that behind entirely, even depatriated myself from my title; you know, the whole formal reticence of faith.

 

(Interestingly enough, I still hold the legal right to call myself The Reverend Lastname, because in my state ordination is a legal thing and not a church based thing. You can be disordained and retain the title.)

 

I voted that I am Atheist. Disco is an Agnostic.

[dayhiker 83]

Hi all,

I always enjoy reading about people's faith and their faith.

 

As I've stated before I'm a Christian. Have been through a lot in the last three years. In the process I studied what the Bible says about sex for the

1st time. I didn't find what the church had told me. The book Divine Sex explains it the best of any book I've read. So if your interested read it.

There are several secular books that document Church history and its hated of sex. They are pretty dry reading. But if one has to know as I did

you can learn a lot from them.

 

I'd love to start a liberated church and am praying that that happens.

 

Will see what Jesus will do with me. I find it interested that 30% of the swingers responding to this poll are practicing Christians. It may be

that we are getting enough info about what the Bible teaches that we can say with confidence that the Bible doesn't teach sex is inherently

sinful and only marriage will sanctify sex.

 

So I've gone to my pastors and told them what I believe. They shake their head at me. But I got to church, raise my hands and worship Jesus. Thanks God and pray the Holy Spirit leads me. I'm finding a joy in my relationship with God that I'd not had since I was baptized into the Holy Spirit 35 years ago.

 

As I mentioned on another thread I put together a study on the definition of adultery. I've had quite a few ask for it. I even had one person turn back to praying after not praying for 3 years. That was pretty neat.

 

So the web is encouraging us to stand up and believe. Its allowing us to research our faith and not just have to be spoon feed what leadership wants to tell us. That was often used to produce guilt so they could motivate people to do things and make themselves feel great. The Bible clearly calls those people false shepherds.

 

Well, if you made it this far, thanks for reading me sermon. I miss preaching. smile

 

dayhiker

[nice_cpl_n_bama 24]

Well, then. I suppose since everyone else is "coming out" I suppose I should too. Laurie and I spent some time as associate pastors of a small church. That came to an end for us when one of the men in the church came to me and admitted he was molesting his daughter and couldn't stop. I drove him back to his house and sat with him while he told his wife then I drove him to the sheriff's station. When word got out the congregation demanded that he be banned from the church. My position was that he had confessed, faced the criminal consequences and started trying to repair the damage so the church had an obligation to stand with him. I refused to toss him out so they tossed Laurie and I out as well. He lived in our spare bedroom for 2 years while he attended court ordered counseling. On the weekends we would keep his kids while he spent time patching up his marriage. When he finished counseling and the court lifted the "no contact" order regarding his kids he went home.

 

That was 8 years ago. I got a call from his daughter last weekend. She is 18 now and engaged. she wanted me to meet her fiancee. She introduced me as her "second daddy" and told her fiancee about how Laurie and I "saved her family." I had to pretend that smoke from the grill was getting in my eyes.

 

It was worth getting fired from my dream job.

 

Personal stories aside, I'm surprised to see so many former ministers here. Are there any CURRENT ministers?

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

nice_cpl_n_bama said:

Well, then. I suppose since everyone else is "coming out" I suppose I should too. Laurie and I spent some time as associate pastors of a small church. That came to an end for us when one of the men in the church came to me and admitted he was molesting his daughter and couldn't stop. I drove him back to his house and sat with him while he told his wife then I drove him to the sheriff's station. When word got out the congregation demanded that he be banned from the church. My position was that he had confessed, faced the criminal consequences and started trying to repair the damage so the church had an obligation to stand with him. I refused to toss him out so they tossed Laurie and I out as well. He lived in our spare bedroom for 2 years while he attended court ordered counseling. On the weekends we would keep his kids while he spent time patching up his marriage. When he finished counseling and the court lifted the "no contact" order regarding his kids he went home.

 

That was 8 years ago. I got a call from his daughter last weekend. She is 18 now and engaged. she wanted me to meet her fiancee. She introduced me as her "second daddy" and told her fiancee about how Laurie and I "saved her family." I had to pretend that smoke from the grill was getting in my eyes.

 

It was worth getting fired from my dream job.

 

Personal stories aside, I'm surprised to see so many former ministers here. Are there any CURRENT ministers?

 

 

WOW. That example you just gave is the epitome of why I don't care for church.

[dayhiker 83]

Nice,

Thanks for that testimony. It shows who really understand the message of the Bible and how God wants us to live.

 

I thought I'd let you know that I have talked online to several current ministers who believe there is sexual freedom taught in the Bible but know if they taught it that they would loss their credentials. Having been around quite a few different churches over the years, I know there are many ministers that don't preach what they believe because the church wouldn't accept it. Many are religious liberals who believe all the German Higher criticism be the man in the street isn't interested in. So that disconnect happens in many ways. I give all those people a lot of grace because not everyone is called to be scholars. The same information doesn't produce the same way of thinking in people unless they are shamed and forced thru much external pressure like Islam does. God knows how to deal with all those differences in my mind.

 

So how do I relate to this diversity of views about God, Jesus and salvation? I think love, faith and hope are important. So I don't say anything that will undercut these attitudes in their life when I talk with them. I rejoice in their love, faith and hope. If I have a story or thought that I think will help them I share that part of my life with them. What they do with it is between them and the Holy Spirit.

 

So it is great to see the love of God in your life, nice,

 

dayhiker

[nice_cpl_n_bama 24]

JustAskJulie said:

WOW. That example you just gave is the epitome of why I don't care for church.

Yup, too true, but that is a failing of the people. It's not supposed to be like that. Folks were understandably worried about their children's safety.

In my opinion the repentant open pedophile is much less dangerous than the undiscovered closet pedophile. I'm hoping that a more liberated view of sexuality would have allowed men like that to come forward before becoming an abuser and seek help for sexual problems instead of letting them fester and grow into something monstrous.

 

Right now people who struggle with things like that are afraid to seek help because they're afraid of that very reaction. Christianity has become ill on a couple of levels, Sexuality and money. I'd like to find a path to cure those two ills. I think the Agnostics in the world might find a greater interest in a healthy functioning church.

 

just my 2 cents worth.

[MulderNScully 19]

Hey all,

 

Mulder here is a born again Christian, former Catholic, and worked along side gay and lesbian Christians as the only straight guy in the flock. Brenda was raised Luthern. I guess we put that out there because lately we haven't been going to church as much as we used to mainly because I'm dealing with issues regarding procrastination and I find it has permeated most of my life so this is a life journey of sorts I'm going through.

 

I read a few of the post and I can see how many can see the current church as being way past what it was meant to be. My big personal beef with the church is how many believers will guilt you over missing Sunday and Wednesday nights and have made it a "law" to either make it or face guilt. To me it isn't the day we make that makes it holy, nor is it the traditions, but how every day is a blessing from God and we should take time each day to validated. Whether if people meet on Sunday, Monday or whatever day each day belongs to God and we should recognize and celebrate it.

 

The thing I am trying to do in our life is not to throw the baby with the bathwater. Even though I am a liberated thinker regarding sexuality and other issues I don't personally blame Christ for the mix up but a faulty, human church unwilling to face its human side. Only when the church is willing to deal openly and honestly on issues of sexuality will we see the contradiction continue.

[Pepper & Drew 384]

MulderNScully said:

I read a few of the post and I can see how many can see the current church as being way past what it was meant to be. My big personal beef with the church is how many believers will guilt you over missing Sunday and Wednesday nights and have made it a "law" to either make it or face guilt. To me it isn't the day we make that makes it holy, nor is it the traditions, but how every day is a blessing from God and we should take time each day to validated. Whether if people meet on Sunday, Monday or whatever day each day belongs to God and we should recognize and celebrate it.

 

The thing I am trying to do in our life is not to throw the baby with the bathwater. Even though I am a liberated thinker regarding sexuality and other issues I don't personally blame Christ for the mix up but a faulty, human church unwilling to face its human side. Only when the church is willing to deal openly and honestly on issues of sexuality will we see the contradiction continue.

 

Right. I think a lot of people want to equate the way "Christians" act with the word of God. But, humans will always be human, and don't have the understanding or the ability to love others as themselves 100% of the time. We don't have the "big picture" that I believe God has. Humans get caught up in silly things and want to categorize, label, separate and think of ways to say that we're better than you because.....

 

My relationship is with God. People will continue to fall short...and to try to make me feel guilty because I wasn't at church last Sunday.

 

Pepper