Talking to kids about swinging.

[sereneiders 263]

My husband raised his eyebrows when I told him my response to her question. I think perhaps we disagree somewhat in this. I think he would prefer that I had made something up...but it wasn't him that was put on the spot, and I've never been good at thinking on my feet like that. I figured "gentle honesty" was the safest bet. This way I don't have to hide the fact that, yes, I do enjoy talking to other people about sex. I've already covered the topic that, yes, swingers are people who are non-monogamous, and they allow one another to have sex with other people, so I don't have to worry about one of her friends "informing" her with some screwed up information. And we both agreed that whether or not hubby and I do it is none of her business, but I did lead her to believe that, just because I happen to enjoy talking to swingers, that didn't necessarily mean anything.

 

Although it took some heat, someone here made the satement about this being an opportunity to bring kids up "swingerfied". I agree with that somewhat in that I welcome the opportunity to teach my kids that other lifestyles DO exist, and as long as they aren't hurting themselves or others, we don't know enough about it to tell them that they're wrong for doing it. It's a real minefield to try and explain it in such a way that it doesn't come across as something shameful because of the implied need for discretion. I'm hoping that she assimilates well what I told her; my main goal was to avoid being unapproachable about sex, and to give her straight answers when she asks for them. The fastest way to send her out snooping for (wrong) information on her own is to either clam up, or lie to her...which she will pick up on right away because I'm a lousy liar. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

In any case, IF you were lying (as when you said "these people have non monogamous relationships, but don't tell Grandma because she may think we do it as well", implying you don't), the best strategy would be to build up a lie resembling the reality the most. But in this case, as far as I understand, by now you're not swinging, so this resemblance is so perfect that you didn't lie!

[intuition897 2,179]

In any case, IF you were lying (as when you said "these people have non monogamous relationships, but don't tell Grandma because she may think we do it as well", implying you don't), the best strategy would be to build up a lie resembling the reality the most. But in this case, as far as I understand, by now you're not swinging, so this resemblance is so perfect that you didn't lie!

 

If we want to split hairs, then yes it was a lie. The fact that we're not active doesn't negate that we still completely agree with swinging and would be into it again given the time/opportunity. I regret that I need to tell someone - anyone! - anything other than the complete truth, but in the case of non-optional relationships, which we all have with blood relatives, I do have a responsibility to protect them and keep the peace between us. This is a prime opportunity for those whom I've argued with about the ethics of "protecting" spouses by cheating on them to slap my hands, saying, "Oh, so it's okay to lie to your kids and your family, but not to your wife/husband?! Yeah right!" But there is a BIG difference:

 

1) It IS a spouse's business who his or her partner is having sex with, if for no other reason, for the sake of their health! But unless you're into incest (which we're NOT), it is not the family's business what you do in the bedroom (or the kitchen, or the living room, or the swing club, etc).

 

2) A marriage is built on trust, and is a completely voluntary relationship. It is a unique kind of friendship taken to it's deepest, highest, broadest limit. It is the ultimate expression of a human being's capacity to love another person selflessly. THIS is why the breach of trust through cheating is such a tragedy to me. It defiles the purity of that trust. In contrast, familial relationships are not dependent on character, but on genetics. One is loyal to family, no matter what they have done. They are non-voluntary permanent relationships, which means that having a rift between you is a VERY big deal. In my case, my Mom would suffer to the end of her days thinking that she had somehow failed in raising me...which is exactly the opposite of the truth. Getting this truth across to her would NOT be achieved by telling her the complete truth about our lifestyle choices. I want her to know that she raised a strong, smart, good-hearted woman with good morals. I know my Mom well enough to know that she resists change of any sort. I know that she will NEVER understand the lifestyle because she doesn't want to. The only way for me to be completely honest with her and "set things right", if I chose to follow the honesty thing to the letter, would be to tell her that we swing, and that it is the right thing for us to do. For her, this goes against everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) she believes in and has built her life upon. Asking her to understand the lifestyle - just so that my conscience could be appeased in telling a lie - would be grossly unfair and unrealistic; it would require her to question the way she is living her life, and has lived it for the past 50 years. I'm not about to burden anyone (whose business it isn't anyway) with they psychological turmoil of trying to understand a thing they haven't even the remotest interest in understanding...just to make me feel better that I haven't told a little white lie. Same goes for our children. I gave my daughter the honesty she asked for, and told a (small) lie where it would protect her, and where it wan't her business to know any more about it.

 

3) Which brings me to another difference: motivation for telling the lie. Lying to a member of your family (child, parent, grandparent, etc) is done solely for their own protection, and with their best interests in mind. Lying to a spouse, while you might tell yourself that it's for their own good, in reality is to save your own ass from the discomfort of having to own up to being a generally shitty person. I have no shame in swinging and am actually proud to call myself a swinger; but my family would feel intense shame and sadness at my confession, and I would realistically have no hope of "converting" them. Why would I bother?? It's a hobby for crying out loud! But when you're dealing with a spouse, there's a big difference between admitting that fantasies of threesomes and foursomes turn you on, and admitting that you have breached his/her trust by having sex with others behind his/her back. Lying in this way is clearly primarily to cover one's own ass...with the added benefit of not immediately hurting one's spouse.

 

I suppose this big long-winded speech sounded a lot like me trying to justify what I did...and I suppose to an extent I am. I feel bad for having to tell a lie, regardless of its necessity. Talking it out reminds me why I did it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, and I won't apologize for it.

[northindycpl 32]

Intuition,

 

What I truly believe, after I have had the honor to know you for the past year or so on the board, is that you are a GOOD Mother. For whatever your reasons, which don't have to be justified to anyone, is that you love and protect and care for, your children to the best of your ability, with the information you have at that moment.

 

Hindsight is always 20/20.... And that is just part of being a mother.

[intuition897 2,179]

Thanks Mrs. Indy. I guess they didn't mention in the brochure that parenthood came with the unpleasant side effect of constantly second-guessing one's self. I just wish the little beggars came with an instruction manual.

[ShellyM 0]

Hey Intuition,

you and I are in the same stage of parenthood....my daughter turns 13 in December. I read what you told your daughter, and I have to say that had my daughter asked me I would have probably told her what you told her. I have said it before regarding this thread, "age appropriate". I don't think you should ever lie to your children, you tell them the truth in a manner they can handle. Trust me, she knows about sex. You aren't telling her anything she doesnt know. Our entire society revolves around sex. I watched Nip/Tuck the other night and almost had a frickin heart attack, because it literally was nothing more than soft porn...I thought I was watching Cinemax before I realized that we don't get Cinemax. WOW. DON'T be hard on yourself. Jay and I disagree at times with how to say and do things regarding the kids, but we never let the kids see us disagree. We go into the other room, discuss it and come out with an agreement. Girl, you are a good Mom! I think this regarding my own daughter. Either she is going to learn about life from me, or from the 15 year old boy who just wants to get laid. Okay? I have already started talking with her about things on that line...ie her menstrual cycle, boys, sex. Trust me, you did the right thing. From what I have heard she sounds to be a very intelligent young lady, so I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[Alura 2,775]

Quote

 

Intuition wrote:

 

Lying in this way is clearly primarily to cover one's own ass...

 

 

Mrs. Alura and I believe that honesty and openness with our children is just as important as it is between the two of us, Intuition, maybe even more so. We applaud your way of handling the situation with your daughter.

 

We made an agreement with each other on our first date that we would never become angry when the other asked a question. As soon as our boys were old enough to talk, we made this agreement with them as well. The agreements also require that all questions be answered honestly.

 

Whether questions have to do with swinging, drinking, drugs, or anything else, really, we feel we are obligated to spread no bullshit. We don't want them to ever catch us in a lie because we feel it would come home to kick us in the ass when they start to wonder whether anything we tell them might be a lie.

 

Both now think we're the world's greatest parents. ("The two most awesome people in the world." — Fourteen) and, the time we went to a Latin Club party to which parents were invited only to find we were the only parents there, ("Dad, these other kids don't want their parents here, but we do! We like to spend time with y'all. If we hadn't wanted you to be with us, we wouldn't have told you parents were invited." — Seventeen) Why would we ever risk losing such respect by lying to cover our own butts?

 

Swinging came up once when Seventeen asked why I post on the SwingersBoard when mom and I don't swing. "What makes you think we don't? I asked.

 

"Well, if y'all do, I don't know when you'd have done it!" Okay, he's right. For the past several years we've not played because (1) we haven't met any suitable couples (not that we haven't tried) and, (2) we've been too busy involving ourselves in every aspect of our kids' lives, not to mention fighting breast cancer for the past five or six years.

 

"Swingers are interesting people, Son. For the most part, they have very good marriages built over long periods together. They know the difference between love and sex and truly love each other. Maybe someday when our lives are less hectic, we will!"

 

No further questions about swinging have been asked. I sometimes wonder if our sons have read any of our posts on the board. If so, they know a lot more than they let on and they also know we may not have told them everything, but neither have we ever lied to them. That's worth more to me than I could ever express.

[northindycpl 32]

Thanks Mrs. Indy. I guess they didn't mention in the brochure that parenthood came with the unpleasant side effect of constantly second-guessing one's self. I just wish the little beggars came with an instruction manual.

 

Don't we all! It would be so easy to be able to look up challenges in a book!

[Cloud of Love 16]

Wanting to protect our kids (ages 7 and 1) is part of the reason we have decided not to pursue swinging at this time....it would just be too hard to explain if the topic came up. So we will wait until they are older before more active consideration.

[sereneiders 263]

Intuition,

 

Up to me, you don't need to justify yourself. I lie everyday about swinging just because we're closet swingers and we want this to remain private. If someone ask me if we swing, I have no problem to say "hell, no!".

 

In any case, honesty is an ideal goal, and as many ideals, we don't always can make them true, and when we don't, there's nothing to feel bad about.

 

No one can tell the truth, every day, to every people, at the risk of being deemed as "stupid". We all lye to some extent, most of the times to preserve other values that are equally or most important than the truth or honesty. Would I lie to save my wife's ass? I certainly would. Would I lie to my wife? I certainly wouldn't... but this is an easy one, since I don't NEED to. Would I lie to save my ass? It depends, but the most likely is that I would.

 

IMO, when you talk with your kids, you want the best for them, you want to teach them some values, you want them to develop and find their own path in their life as to be happy. If you feel honesty get in the way, it's ok to let it aside. After all, life is about making hard choices most of the time, you're pushed to choose among your values, and you end up loosing something every time you choose. This scenario is one where you have to give up something as to obtain something else, and I feel there are more important things to ponder than the ideal of honesty.

 

You did your best, and already lose something... there's no need to punish yourself above this.

[bill&sabrina 22]

Let's suppose you like anal sex. Would you discuss your tastes with your kids? Would you bring the subject in the name of "honesty" as for them to "understand" how "natural" it is?

 

I am pretty sure that most people here would answer "hell, no!"

 

In the other hand, let's suppose your kid is grown up enough, and he/she's the one bringing the subject of anal sex. Would you admit to your kid that you tried and even liked it, and tell the kid it is a matter of personal taste?

 

I am pretty sure that most people here would answer "of course".

 

I guess the key here is who brings the subject first. It's not OK to discuss those matters with the kids if they didn't ask to know, and it is OK just when they ask for information that they are able to digest.

 

I apoligize again for being vague in my original post. From the very begining of this post I wanted to know how swingers are going to reply when asked about swinging, and why. I did add that information later, but it seems to have been lost.

[bill&sabrina 22]

TNT said:

Just out of curiosity...what are the ages of your children?

 

They are 7 and 3. Our 7 yr old already accuses us of having S E X, when we don't get up as soon as them on weekends. We just tell her maybe, but that isn't a subject she should worry about now. Contrary to what some may think, we do think 7 is a little young to try to discuss sex in detail.

[Funcpl647 15]

Our 6 children range in age from 19 to 12. Two boys, four girls. Only girls are still at home.

 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is: Just because we understand discretion doesn't mean our children do. As we have experienced first hand, it's only a matter of time before each and every one of our kids got angry or just couldn't resist the urge, and shared what they knew about us - their parents - with one of their friends.

 

My daughters tell me all the time what's going on in so-and-so's family. We know when other parents are fighting, what they fight about, when their kids heard them having sex, on and on and on.

 

We value honesty, but we also value our privacy. I can't imagine going to a party and having one of the other parents say, "So, I heard you two are swingers?" Or a teacher at school? I think not.

 

Our 16F point blank asked us if we swing. I sarcastically said laughing, "Yeah, right." She asked, "If you did, would you tell me?" I said, "Hell no. Our sex life is none of your business. Would you want to tell me about your details?" We talk openenly and honestly about all facets of sex in general, just not about our personal stuff.

 

Mrs. Funcpl

[playful99577 15]

Bill & Sabrina, I think that the concerns you expressed were understood by at least some of us. Like a lot of couples that have posted to this thread, we think that pulling kids aside and telling them about mom and dad's sex lives is more information than most of them want to know. On the other hand, we agree with you that it's important not to raise children that will grow up thinking that swinging is immoral and wrong. It's equally important, in our view, the kids understand by the time they are in their late teens or early 20s that swinging is one option for them as they begin exploring the challenging and confusing world of serious romance. When our children reach adulthood, we would be disappointed if they felt they couldn't discuss sexual issues with us.

 

Our kids will soon be hitting those awkward teen years, and our plan, if and when they ever ask us if we are swingers or have sex with others, is to sit down with them and say, "We will answer your question honestly and openly, but first ask yourself, do you really want to know?" If, after reflection, they tell us that they want to know, and we think they are mature enough to understand (which we think is at least age 16), we will answer honestly any questions they have. But I doubt that we will ever bring the topic up ourselves.

 

Would love to hear from other couples how they've walked this fine and difficult line!

[bill&sabrina 22]

Funcpl647 said:

My daughters tell me all the time what's going on in so-and-so's family. We know when other parents are fighting, what they fight about, when their kids heard them having sex, on and on and on.

 

Mrs. Funcpl

 

Since our kids could talk, we have taught them that no one likes a person that tells everything they know. When parents talk kids listen, it isn't just a catchy Ad Council slogan. I rolled my eyes when getting a lesson in life from my parents, but for some reason I couldn't seem to keep them from sticking.

[larryt9 17]

When I found out at 12 that my folks had at least tried pot, I was an emotional wreck for days. SWINGING????? My daughters only six, and it will be at least 12 more years before I'd even give the slightest thought to being honest with her on that, and I'm pretty sure we'd be talking my back up against the wall before I'd even broach it.

[Malachista 170]

Well, both the original families of my parents have ties in the porn/prostitution biz, so I knew quite a lot early on.

 

They had no problems to admit that they did this or that but not the next, or how they came to try that.

 

All that knowledge prevented me from ever being grossed out at thinking of my parents together or with other people or from falling pray to someone who tried to get fucked by claiming that he loved me as a teenager.

 

How could anyone call this unhealthy?

 

(Unlike the father of my son who got in a real fuss when the child - then 3 years old - walked in at him naked in the shower)