I want the wife, but my wife isn't ready to do the husband

[Darkblue 55]

Rules are good when you start swinging, had them and some we still do! But rules are there to be broken/bent. We have met a couple where the chemistry between myself and the female is huge, never have I felt chemistry so strong, and we both want to do full swap. I told my wife weeks ago I was interested in this and she was more of a NO but never really said anything against it at the time. No we/I am this far she has said she won't do full swap with him and I can with her but she doesn't like the idea. In the same sentence she also says she does like the idea of full swap as it gets her going as well! But she can't get over the boundary she has set herself? She fancies a 3some or 4some as well.

 

I know women can't make up their mind but this is doing my head in! She tells the other guy that she won't do full swap with him, then tells him she needs more time. She also tells me that she might when she is in the club?

 

The idea of someone else screwing the wife is appealing to me...

 

The wife has a BI side of her as well and would like to take it further. I am far from against this, I think its great. Now if she has sex with another women isn't that more or less the same as a full swap as I wont be taking part in their fun? I am not BI so I wont be playing with him.

 

I feel that I am moving forward and she is standing still but I also believe she wants to do a full swap but can't jump over her own shadow!

 

We trust each other 100% and talk about everything and I mean everything! We have no secrets, we never have had.

 

I am also her first man and she hasn't been with another man.

 

So what do I do? Any ideas?

[ShellyM 0]

Okay Steve,

I don't think you guys are ready to take on full swap at all. Your wife has numerous conflicting feelings going on in her head that need to be addressed before any full play is initiated. I would hate to be a couple that was playing, and the wife was yes, no, maybe, maybe in the lounge, maybe not, yes.....that would drive me to frustration. So, I would suggest that you and your wife sit down and have a serious heart to heart discussion about what she is and isn't okay with. Be very careful in how you talk to her. If you go telling her how you have this INTENSE connection with this other woman like never before she is probably going to be very threatened. So talk things over, and go from there.

[flkeyscouple 21]

I'd say 'keep talking'! I know you are in a hurry to get to the full swap, but don't hurry her. She'll probably come around - in the long run - but don't pressure her. And keep talking - you say you don't have any secrets and you talk all the time - just keep that up.

 

We started out soft swap too - and at that time I didn't think we'd ever do a full swap - but the fantasies took over and after discussing it FOREVER, we went for it. We both knew that if either of us were uncomfortable we'd stop and walk way - but we both truly enjoyed the full swap! We knew before we started that we would! We'd discussed it (like I said) FOREVER.

 

So... keep discussing. Keep talking. Keep fantasizing.

[ShellyM 0]

If you go telling her how you have this INTENSE connection with this other woman like never before she is probably going to be very threatened. So talk things over, and go from there.

 

Hey, I want to clarify something from my post. Now, when I say this I don't mean lie to her or mislead her....after I read it I thought there may be misunderstandings with my meaning...what I mean is be very tactful in how you say things to your wife.

 

We women are very sensitive creatures by nature, and we can get threatened when our husbands have connections with other women. So just be sensitive to her feelings. If Jay were to tell me "I met this lady, and we have SUCH an amazing connection, and she is hot and beautiful and I'm so into her, and she is into me" I would probably become at least concerned lol...and I'm not the jealous type at all.

 

So, just be wary of her feelings in talking with her.

[Darkblue 55]

Thanks for your replies but I don't keep secrets and my wife saw that the connection was intense and I wont lie to her about it but she also knows that it is sex, not love, not a relationship, nothing else! We do talk for hours and hours and more hours, day in day out!! I wont keep anything from the wife. I have no reason to hide anything. Just because this other women and I have made a big connection doesn't mean anything to me. I love my wife more than anything in the world!

 

We said when we started swinging no secrets! Anyway, I couldn't of as she saw the connection herself!

 

She has said I can but also makes it clear she isn't happy about it!

 

Now I have always looked after my wife and put her before myself! This is the first person who is interested in me, the others just wanted her and I was sat on the sidelines. I have never had the chance to play as such, she has and she enjoyed it!

[friskymonkey 15]

Steve,

 

It sounds like you and your wife have really good communication. It also sounds like (and I could be totally off base here) that you're so amped up to full swap because you're so hot for this other woman that you're pushing. Like I said, maybe I'm completely wrong.

 

Also this worries me because it sounds a little like you're suggesting that she owes you...

Now I have always looked after my wife and put her before myself! This is the first person who is interested in me, the others just wanted her and I was sat on the sidelines. I have never had the chance to play as such, she has and she enjoyed it!

 

I can certainly understand how hard it is to really want to be with this other woman with whom you have the strong chemistry. But even though your wife (maybe sort of) has said you could go ahead, she has told you that she's not OK with it, at least not presently. If I were you, honestly, I would back off the idea for now. Let it rest for a while and focus on the two of you and your relationship (like you sound like you have been) and like Sarah and Shelly said, keep talking. My guess is that if she were ever to consider bending the rules or extending the boundaries, it'd be when she's feeling really secure and loved and supported.

 

Pressure to do things you're not comfortable with is one of the least sexy things in the world.

 

Best to you both!

[JTcamp05 9]

Everyone's advice here is right on the money! Keep communicating and things will progress.

 

I do find it funny though that here is a new couple that sets rules with the understanding they will be broken...then why set them? Maybe the problem is the rules in and of themselves...why not start with a "Hey, I trust you, you trust me, let's have fun!" It seems to me an easier solution to having complex rules that as you say "will be broken".

[Darkblue 55]

We do communicate very well, always have done so that has never been an issue! I do have the hots for the other women but I only want to satisfy my own lust. I also stated that I told my wife I wanted to have full swap long before she came onto the scene! So it is not just because it is her!

 

I have always put her before myself in all aspects and it would be nice if she would just once put me first! But hey, I shouldn't really complain, I have a great wife who loves me and I love her.

 

She owes me nothing. I would just like her to open a bit more and trust herself and to stop being so pessimistic all the time! And to make up her mind instead of saying one thing then in the very same sentence saying something totally different!

 

Maybe I am asking too much but I have been honest with her.

 

@JTcamp05

 

I went into swinging for her. I wasn't into it as such but now I have licked blood and I want more!! I have done a lot of research into swinging and I want to progress and not stay treading on the same spot!! I want to her to have fun and she has been having fun!!

 

The rules were there so we both knew where we stood and the rules were fine then but now they no longer fit our situation and they as in all rules can be broken/bent if both partners agree.

 

I trust my wife 110% and she says she trusts me! She has also said if I go and have my fun then only with a condom which is a must anyways. She even likes the idea of watching and doing 3/4-some... don't ask, I don't know either what she wants!

 

Many thanks again, you are all helping me get my head around this situation!

 

At the moment I am thinking of dropping swinging as I feel it is all one sided - she can, I can't. But I like swinging! So I would be cutting my nose off to spite my face!

[Amanda69 24]

The rules were there so we both knew where we stood and the rules were fine then but now they no longer fit our situation and they as in all rules can be broken/bent if both parties agree

 

The thing is here that both parties don't agree. Yes at times in certain situations you can get her to agree it might happen but she always goes back to NO in the light of day. My advice, stop the pressure, it is not helping the situation. She isn't ready, that is clear. If you truly put her first and won't do anything without agreement, then that is the end of the discussion for the time being.

[lookingfornow 116]

I would never do full where we both weren't doing full swap. One of our hard and fast rules is that we play equally or not at all. I wouldn't do it even if other wife was OK with it and so was my hubby.

 

This is a path to disaster (in my opinion). She will be angry and then will feel like she can't trust you. Soon she will lose all interest in any sexual play with others (claiming that it is because it reminds her that she cannot trust you). Next thing you know, no more play at all and you will be wondering what happened.

 

If she is going to come around, it will be with a couple that she feels the same interest in going full with that you do. Look for that couple and get over the fact that you have this "chemistry" with this woman.

[getnit2gethr 15]

I didn't understand if your wife was against it because she is afraid that you like the woman too much or if it's because she doesn't like the woman's SO?

[Tybee Swing 286]

I'm confused about some of this. Can you clarify?

 

Rules are good when you start swinging, had them and some we still do! But rules are there to be broken/bent. We have met a couple where the chemistry between myself and the female is huge, never have I felt chemistry so strong

 

Stonger than anything you ever felt, even more than for your wife? As a wife, I would hate to hear this from my husband. Honest or not, this would hurt to hear. I think a lot of wives may feel that way.

 

Rules are good when you start swinging, had them and some we still do! But rules are there to be broken/bent. We have met a couple where the chemistry between myself and the female is huge, never have I felt chemistry so strong, and we both want to do full swap,

 

Who's we? You and the other wife?

 

now considering this, I told my wife weeks ago I was interested in this and she was more of a NO but never really said anything against it st the time, now we/I am this far she has said she wont do full swap with him and I can with her but she doesn't like the idea

 

in the same sentence she also says she does like the idea of full swap as it gets her going as well!!

 

she tells the other guy that she wont do full swap with him, then tells him she needs more time. She also tells me that she might when she is in the club?

 

 

It sounds like she's probably not ready for full swap. It sounds like she wants to please you and rush along at your schedule of readiness, but she's not there. It's also possible she's not all that turned-on to this other man, the way you are turned-on to that man's wife. Has she told you WHY she doesn't want to do full swap with this man? When she's waffling on whether she'll play with that man or not, it might be her trying to talk herself into going along with all of this to please you, knowing how much you want that other woman.

 

Now if she has sex with another women isn't that more or less the same as a full swap as I wont be taking part in their fun? I am not BI so I won't be playing with him.

 

Many couples consider girl/girl play to be a part of soft swing. Would you be there watching? What a lot of couples do at that point is the girls play while the guys watch and get turned-on, and then they have same-room sex, each with their own partner. It can be very exciting as an exhibitionist/voyeur experience of having sex in the same room as another couple. One of the standard definitions of soft swing is "anything except intercourse with others". Could be making out with others, girl/girl play, oral, etc.

 

I am also her first man and she hasn't been with another man.

You also mentioned that she might want to play with a woman, but it sounded like she hasn't done that either - right? So, she's a woman that's never been with a man besides you, and hasn't been with a woman, so all of this is very new to her. It's going to be a huge step with her to do all sorts of sexual things with other people.

 

What is your history with swinging, so far? Any activity at all? Just playing around or making out a little?? I don't understand where you two are in swinging right now.

 

I went into swinging for her. I wasn't into it as such but now I have licked blood and I want more! I have done a lot of research into swinging and I want to progress and not stay treading on the same spot! I want to her to have fun and she has been having fun!

 

What have you been doing so far? I got the impression that to date she has not been with another man aside from you, and she hasn't been with a woman, either...is that right? The swinging was her idea to start with? What did she state her goals were with swinging?

 

The rules were there so we both knew where we stood and the rules were fine then but now they no longer fit our situation and they as in all rules can be broken/bent if both parties agree

 

What rules were changed, exactly? It's typical for a couple to change rules as they go along with swinging, and after both of them have experienced things in a way that tells them both, "we don't need that rule, we've proven that to ourselves with our experiences". Have you two even really tested the waters yet, to know what rules work and what don't?

 

I think I'm missing something.

 

I trust my wife 110% and she says she trusts me! She has also said if I go and have my fun then only with a condom which is a must anyways. She even likes the idea of watching and doing 3/4-some... Don't ask, I don't know either what she wants!!

 

So, you two are talking about going separately, pursuing sexual activities not as a couple but individually? This is considered pretty hardcore by many couples. It's more like an open marriage, rather than swinging. Many of us don't and won't ever go separately like that, for many reasons. We consider this something we're in together, as a couple only. There are couples that play in separate rooms, etc...but generally speaking it's considered more "advanced", for lack of a better word.

 

I think there needs to be a LOT more communicating and figuring out just where you're going with this, and what kind of swingers you plan to be. Virtually every couple has limits and some sort of comfort zone to work in. Yours sounds very undefined. Together? Separate conquests? I'm not following.

 

Best wishes!

[Darkblue 55]

Hi Steve. I didn't understand if your wife was against it because she is afraid that you like the woman too much or if it's because she doesn't like the woman's SO?

 

She likes the other women quite a lot and isn't against the both of them getting it together themselves (bi).

 

As for the other woman and I well she knows its lust and nothing more..

 

@Tybee

Many thanks for your thoughts and here are some of answers

 

Stronger than anything you ever felt, even more than for your wife? As a wife, I would hate to hear this from my husband. Honest or not, this would hurt to hear. I think a lot of wives may feel that way.

 

The feeling of chemistry or attraction is strong but my love to my wife can't be touched, she is and always will be my number one. For me this is about lust not love. I like her but I love my wife more than life itself.

 

I have been honest with my wife and I won't hide anything from her and I would hope she would do the same (she does as far as I know )

 

Who's we? You and the other wife?

 

Yes, the other wife and I.

 

It sounds like she's probably not ready for full swap. It sounds like she wants to please you and rush along at your schedule of readiness, but she's not there. It's also possible she's not all that turned-on to this other man, the way you are turned-on to that man's wife. Has she told you WHY she doesn't want to do full swap with this man? When she's waffling on whether she'll play with that man or not, it might be her trying to talk herself into going along with all of this to please you, knowing how much you want that other woman.

 

This may well be and I won't force or even try to tell her what to do or what not to do. It is has to her decision and not mine. The funny thing about this is that she does have fantasies about doing swaps and 3/4-somes etc. She is pessimistic where she finds an excuse not to do something because of this or that! I am serious people, she is really bad at times, she also has to plan everything down to the last detail, and we all know you can't plan everything.

 

She isn't spontaneous in any way, not on bit.

 

As for liking the other guy! Yes she does, he is just the kind of guy she likes! Tall, dark, and handsome and very considerate towards her, and she even says she is attracted to him. So for me I don't see a problem being there. If I thought it was, then that would change matters instantly. They have kissed and she liked it, she told me so. She chats with him and likes the way he is. He knows that she won't do full swap and he's fine with that as well, so it won't be a question of you're screwing my wife, I want to screw yours situation. We were honest with them from the start.

 

Many couples consider girl/girl play to be a part of soft swing.

 

I don't think this is soft swap. After all, let's look at it this way. I am not Bi so other than watching I won't play with the other partner would I? So to me this is full swap! Not that I am against this, far from it, I love the idea.

 

What have you been doing so far? I got the impression that to date she has not been with another man aside from you, and she hasn't been with a woman, either...is that right? The swinging was her idea to start with? What did she state her goals were with swinging?

 

What is your history with swinging, so far? Any activity at all? Just playing around or making out a little?? I don't understand where you two are in swinging right now. [/b]

 

Simple. We have been to Clubs and have had swaps, soft swaps. She has gone further than I have. She has been with another girl and has had some good fun. The look on her face afterwards was a look of "god that was good, I am in heaven" and I loved that look on her face! She is very open towards sex but always looks at the negative side of things - STD's, the condom might split, etc. You name the excuse and she has said it! She never looks on the good side of things.

 

What rules were changed, exactly? It's typical for a couple to change rules as they go along with swinging, and after both of them have experienced things in a way that tells them both, "we don't need that rule, we've proven that to ourselves with our experiences". Have you two even really tested the waters yet, to know what rules work and what don't?

 

Our rules were simple - Soft swap, no separate rooms (protection for the wife if the guy got too horny for her to handle). We also said the rules would change the further we went...

 

The rules have changed to separate rooms, which is more choice. I am fine with that as long as I know she´s safe, that's my main concern!

 

I also stated from the start (before we had our first swing experience) that I was interested in full swap when the time came. The wife knows that I love women and even though I love women I have never been unfaithful to her even though the chances have been there, it just isn't my thing. I could never do that to her or myself even if it was just for the sex...

 

So, you two are talking about going separately, pursuing sexual activities not as a couple but individually? This is considered pretty hardcore by many couples. It's more like an open marriage, rather than swinging. Many of us don't and won't ever go separately like that, for many reasons. We consider this something we're in together, as a couple only. There are couples that play in separate rooms, etc....but generally speaking it's considered more "advanced", for lack of a better word.

 

I think there needs to be a LOT more communicating and figuring out just where you're going with this, and what kind of swingers you plan to be. Virtually every couple has limits and some sort of comfort zone to work in. Yours sounds very undefined. Together? Separate conquests? I'm not following.

 

I know this does sound like an open marriage but it is far from that! The only time we play is when were both together, i.e. same club or same house and that we know where the other person is at all times. I also firmly believe that my wife can let her hair down better without me watching her (I probably would as well as I won't do anything that she might not like). She tends to look at me and ask if it is ok to give a blow job and I find that cute, but it is her choice not mine. If she is happy to do that then that is fine by me! We won't have a friend with benefits male or female) who comes and does house visits without the other partner being present. It is a common practice here in Germany but not with us.

 

Over the last few days she has read the forum and is getting a better idea of my thoughts and feelings, maybe more so because talking is fine but she can't take it all in, far too much to discuss. Like I said, she likes the idea of getting laid by someone else but can't jump over her own shadow to get there. I know when she does she will be kicking herself for not doing it earlier. I am serious, I know her well. After 24 years together it would be a shame if I didn't!

 

Many thanks, guys you are really helping us on this!

[Tybee Swing 286]

Many couples consider girl/girl play to be a part of soft swing.

 

I don't think this is soft swap. After all, let's look at it this way. I am not Bi so other than watching I won't play with the other partner would I? So to me this is full swap! Not that I am against this, far from it, I love the idea.

 

One of the things that's been bugging you is that you feel your wife has gone further along in swinging than you have been able to so far. You're chomping at the bit to get to that other woman, and this idea that your wife has gone further is annoying you.

 

I just wanted to explain more about soft swap. With two women, there's kissing, touching, and oral (all soft) - that's it. If you're soft swapping with the opposite sex, it's the same thing - you'd be kissing, touching, and using your mouth on a woman (and her with you). Right? This is why girl/girl is considered soft play. And like you said, most men love to watch it, so that's what the men get out of it.

 

So in my mind (for what it's worth), your wife has just been doing soft play so far, just as you have. When you cross over to swapping partners for intercourse, that's when you'll both be all the way there to full swap.

 

Personally, I think your wife's concerns we've heard are all valid ones. We all worry about STD's at some point, worry if the condom will break, etc. We especially worry if our relationship will change and never be able to go back, or if some damage will be done. We are all different in how quickly or slowly we jump into these things. So, please don't compare your wife to other women who may have said they dove right in. Since you've known your wife for 24 years, you know it's her nature to need to feel things along gradually, it's her way. You love her more than anything, so for her comfort and happiness, you know she needs your patience through this. It's a BIG step for you as a couple, right? And remember, she's never been with another man other than you in her life; that's a big step for a woman. It will happen, because she wants to go in this direction, but you can't push her. Trust me, the whole experience will be much better for all parties if it only happens when she's ready.

 

Good luck.

[intuition897 2,179]

I hate to say it, but it seems to me that the others are right: more talking. You're probably so sick of talking by now that you both want to puke, but I would suggest branching out into different areas of conversation. If you feel that there's nothing left to talk about, yet you're still having a problem, you're wrong. Until you're both able to read one another's minds new stuff will crop up every day.

 

I would suggest aiming straight for the most sensitive and difficult to discuss topics. The more uncomfortable and awkward it is to talk about, the better. THAT's the stuff that needs sorting out. For example, you could say to your wife exactly how you feel: "I get annoyed when you give me all these little excuses for not moving forward when I know there's a bigger reason behind it. So what is it? Why, exactly, don't you want to move forward with this?" Or maybe just sharing how you feel about your dilemma will help: "I'm really frustrated and feeling torn. On one side, I can see this great adventure we both could be having, seeing how it can add to what we have already, and add to our own selves - I can't lie to you; it's really exciting that another attractive woman finds me this attractive, and I would love to explore that further - but you know that I love you, and I don't want to see you do anything that would hurt you. And if it makes you sad, or makes you feel dirty or degraded somehow, that hurts you. I just don't understand why you would feel that way?"

 

Often when people write a post to the board outlining their problem, they state it very clearly and concisely and in a level-headed and mature way. They're trying to get complete strangers to understand what is happening in their lives. And quite often the OP is advised to bring his or her spouse to the board so he or she can read what was written...by the OP! Not by the people on the board! We're just mirrors to bounce ideas off of. We can't fix anyone's problems...not even close. All we can do is maybe offer some perspective. We often suggest getting one's spouse to read one's post because they have stated exactly the things that needed to be said to him or her. Give it a try, and see what happens.

[Darkblue 55]

Hi Steve, one of the things that's been bugging you is that you feel your wife has gone further along in swinging than you have been able to so far. You're chomping at the bit to get to that other woman, and this idea that your wife has gone further is annoying you.

 

I just wanted to explain more about soft swap. With two women, there's kissing, touching, and oral (all soft) - that's it. If you're soft swapping with the opposite sex, it's the same thing - you'd be kissing, touching, and using your mouth on a woman (and her with you). Right? This is why girl/girl is considered soft play. And like you said, most men love to watch it, so that's what the men get out of it.

 

So in my mind (for what it's worth), your wife has just been doing soft play so far, just as you have. When you cross over to swapping partners for intercourse, that's when you'll both be all the way there to full swap.

 

Personally, I think your wife's concerns we've heard are all valid ones. We all worry about STD's at some point, worry if the condom will break, etc. We especially worry if our relationship will change and never be able to go back, or if some damage will be done. We are all different in how quickly or slowly we jump into these things. So, please don't compare your wife to other women who may have said they dove right in. Since you've known your wife for 24 years, you know it's her nature to need to feel things along gradually, it's her way. You love her more than anything, so for her comfort and happiness, you know she needs your patience through this. It's a BIG step for you as a couple, right? And remember, she's never been with another man other than you in her life; that's a big step for a woman. It will happen, because she wants to go in this direction, but you can't push her. Trust me, the whole experience will be much better for all parties if it only happens when she's ready.

 

Good luck.

 

 

STOP It doesn't bug me that she has gone further than I, I am happy that she has gone so far!!I love it that she has come out of her shell a bit further, my time will come and I can wait if I have to!!

 

 

Soft swapping with a female? When does that become full swap I mean they way I see it they can't have intercourse so in theory it is never going to be anything else than soft swap. That does not make sense to me sorry...

 

I didn't say that her concerns (STD etc.) were not valid. They are but then again if you use them as an excuse then that's wrong. We all know that life is full of risks, all you can do is to take all reasonable precautions possible.

 

If I was going to go ahead with this no matter what, I wouldn't be posting here asking for help and advice and the views of others! I don't want to hurt her in anyway whatsoever. I do love her more than anything else in the world and nothing will ever change that.

 

I hate to say it, but it seems to me that the others are right: more talking. You're probably so sick of talking by now that you both want to puke, but I would suggest branching out into different areas of conversation. If you feel that there's nothing left to talk about, yet you're still having a problem, you're wrong. Until you're both able to read one another's minds new stuff will crop up every day.

 

I would suggest aiming straight for the most sensitive and difficult to discuss topics. The more uncomfortable and awkward it is to talk about, the better. THAT's the stuff that needs sorting out. For example, you could say to your wife exactly how you feel: "I get annoyed when you give me all these little excuses for not moving forward when I know there's a bigger reason behind it. So what is it? Why, exactly, don't you want to move forward with this?" Or maybe just sharing how you feel about your dilemma will help: "I'm really frustrated and feeling torn. On one side, I can see this great adventure we both could be having, seeing how it can add to what we have already, and add to our own selves - I can't lie to you; it's really exciting that another attractive woman finds me this attractive, and I would love to explore that further - but you know that I love you, and I don't want to see you do anything that would hurt you. And if it makes you sad, or makes you feel dirty or degraded somehow, that hurts you. I just don't understand why you would feel that way?"

 

Often when people write a post to the board outlining their problem, they state it very clearly and concisely and in a level-headed and mature way. They're trying to get complete strangers to understand what is happening in their lives. And quite often the OP is advised to bring his or her spouse to the board so he or she can read what was written...by the OP! Not by the people on the board! We're just mirrors to bounce ideas off of. We can't fix anyone's problems...not even close. All we can do is maybe offer some perspective. We often suggest getting one's spouse to read one's post because they have stated exactly the things that needed to be said to him or her. Give it a try, and see what happens.

 

I have told her thousands of times that her little excuses for not going further and I also explain to her why I feel that way. If I could find a valid reason not to move forward then I would! If she doesn't not want to go further than soft swap then fine, but I won't be happy as I don't like to stand and tread water. I think if this was to happen then I don't see the point of swinging as I wouldn't be happy but she would.

 

I certainly won't push!! But there have been developments since I started this thread!! We are getting there slowly but surely and we haven't stopped talking!

[intuition897 2,179]

But did you find out WHY she is so against full swap? Is it safety concerns? Diseases? Pregnancy? Religious conflict? Ethical conflict? Concerns about possible damage it can do to your relationship? Losing your jobs/friends if you were "outed"? Worried about the kids being scarred for life if they found out? You name a concern and it's been dealt with on here. Asked and answered a dozen times over.

 

Mr. intuition and I (although we're not active right now) were a full-swap couple, so I can sympathize. I can also understand how Mrs. darkblue is feeling, too, because I was the one in her shoes about 7 years ago. Mr. intuition brought up the idea of swinging and, while I was intrigued, I also had to deal with a great deal of inner conflict. I was raised in a conservative Christian home, where sex wasn't even talked about. I am still a Christian today, and I feel a much stronger Christian at that, but I had to choose to undergo a great deal of scary re-programming. I had to question everything I was brought up to believe. I had to learn to reject what my parents, whom I love dearly, had taught me about what was right and wrong with regard to love, marriage, sex and God. I had to learn to trust my own judgment and not rely on the misunderstandings, and misinterpretations of others, because when it comes right down to it, not one single human being is any better or worse than another. Who we are is only partly the result of genetics; the bulk of our personalities is made up of our reactions to a lifetime of experiences. When a king has a bad experience, he is more likely to judge that it is a bad experience for the rest of his kingdom as well. Hence he declares a new law be written banning anyone from doing anything that would be associated with said bad experience. Families are like small kingdoms. The heads of the household read the king's book of laws, and because they were told by their parents (the heads of their households) that it was good to listen to the king (because he must be wise, if he's good enough to be king, after all), they take the king's book of laws to heart and obey them. Not because it's right and true, but simply because it was written by a king.

 

Maybe that's why swingers are thought to be out of their minds for doing what they do: we defy the "authoritative" word on life, love, sex and marriage, and say, "Oh yeah? Well what the hell makes YOU such an expert? You've never even tried it and can't even speak from experience." When we tell them to PROVE that monogamy is better than consensual non-monogamy, they start to trip up. And they can't PROVE that non-monogamy/swinging/the lifestyle is harmful to the person, the couple, the family or to society, much as they'd like to. "Why is it so wrong?" we ask. Invariably, when you back them into a corner, the answer is, "Well...because it is!" But I've never heard a valid argument yet that would convince me that sexual non-exclusivity in a marriage is sinful or harmful if it is gone about the right way. Quite the contrary in fact.

 

Did I just hijack your thread?

 

EDIT>> I'd also like to mention that one of the best things Mr. intuition did for me during this time was to back off and allow me the time and space to explore my curiosity about the lifestyle at my own pace, without pressure, and without any fear. Under pressure, the fear wins and crushes budding curiosity. Mr. intuition made it clear that this was something that he was definitely interested in, but could take it or leave it. It wasn't something he NEEDED to do. He was just curious and game to try it...if I wanted to. The process took many months, but during this time, he never pushed. He just made sure to let me know that it was an idea that was on his back burner. A kink. A fantasy. It didn't have to happen, but it would be nice if it did. He knew me well enough to know that I was adventurous and brave enough to try new things, so he trusted me enough to let me reach my own conclusions about it, and he didn't try to lead me. The patience and respect that he showed during this time only went in his favour, as it built my trust in him, which was essential to having a good first (and second and third...) experience.

[MoonLightKiss 28]

I agree with Intuition. You are probably ready to puke up talking, but it seems that more communication needs to happen. You probably are not quite ready for full swap. However, the fact that you communicate well already will certainly help you move in that direction if it is an option for the future. Pushing however, will have the opposite effect, and causes people to dig their heels in and refuse to move.

 

There is a saying here that I have found to be so true, move at the pace of the slowest person. This is so important to hold onto. Also, bring her here and let her see the posts. Sometimes when communicating orally, we lose track of thoughts that are important, while writing them we can make them more clear and objective. It is also good for her if she has concerns such as pregnancies, STD's or whatnot. She can post all her concerns here, and she will find that many of us relate to them. Sometimes not feeling alone helps more than solving the problem.

 

You two are going to be fine. Just remember to keep talking.

[Tybee Swing 286]

I'd also like to mention that one of the best things Mr. intuition did for me during this time was to back off and allow me the time and space to explore my curiosity about the lifestyle at my own pace, without pressure, and without any fear. Under pressure, the fear wins and crushes budding curiosity. Mr. intuition made it clear that this was something that he was definitely interested in, but could take it or leave it. It wasn't something he NEEDED to do. He was just curious and game to try it...if I wanted to. The process took many months, but during this time, he never pushed. He just made sure to let me know that it was an idea that was on his back burner. A kink. A fantasy. It didn't have to happen, but it would be nice if it did. He knew me well enough to know that I was adventurous and brave enough to try new things, so he trusted me enough to let me reach my own conclusions about it, and he didn't try to lead me. The patience and respect that he showed during this time only went in his favour, as it built my trust in him, which was essential to having a good first (and second and third...) experience.

 

This is the reason it's worked out for us, too. I'm assured that this lifestyle isn't that big of a deal, and us going back to "just us" will be perfectly fine, if at any time either one of us wants or needs to stop. It's the way he really feels about it, which is why I have a comfort zone about being in this.

[Darkblue 55]

But did you find out WHY she is so against full swap? Is it safety concerns? Diseases? Pregnancy? Religious conflict? Ethical conflict? Concerns about possible damage it can do to your relationship? Losing your jobs/friends if you were "outed"? Worried about the kids being scarred for life if they found out? You name a concern and it's been dealt with on here. Asked and answered a dozen times over.

 

Were not worried about being outed,if it happens then tough we will get to that hurdle when it happens were both aware of the problems that might come with it.

 

Religion doesn't come in to it, we are not religious at all.

 

She is against a full swap because as she say´s she feels she would be losing something that she gave me as I am the only one she has ever been with.

 

Pregnancy is a possibility and we have spoken about this and we have both decided if this does happen then an abortion is a NO NO!

 

STDs, well it can happen and we both know where the Doctor is!

 

We are still talking and will continue to do so! At the moment I am losing the urge to do anything with the other woman, in fact, any woman!

 

Thanks again everyone, it is good to know that there is someone there that will help and give advice.

[Darkblue 55]

It is a great pity that the wife can't post what she feels on the forum (her English isn't good enough and I can't translate for her as there might well be bias without realizing it).

 

Things are progressing and we are getting there. The couple came here tonight for some coffee and talk and she and Mr A got on fine but I have felt guilty just looking at her and the kick has gone. I don't know what I want anymore, am I coming or am I going?

 

Could this be because of all the talking? I still like her, don't get me wrong.

 

So I am going to have to play this by ear now! With my luck the wife will go full swap and I will feel so guilty I won't be able to even if I want to... but that's life I guess! To be honest at the moment I am totally pissed off....but no worries, tomorrow is another day.

 

Why do things have to be complicated in life?

[getnit2gethr 15]

I feel you man. Give it time, it's all you can do. Many problems in life turn out to be no problem at all after a little time. I work on difficult problems every day. Sometimes I beat my head against the wall for hours and get nowhere. Eventually I give up and think about something else and suddenly the solution will come magically to mind. Right now you're chained to an idea and maybe your not seeing the big picture. It's also possible that a solution will never come. Don't waste your time. Free yourself. Focus on a new goal and see what happens.

[intuition897 2,179]

She is against a full swap because as she says she feels she would be losing something that she gave me as I am the only one she has ever been with.

 

Well...she still gave it to you. You were the first one there, right? Is she afraid that that is all she has to offer you? I've never met Susanne, but I am sure that she has a multitude of things to offer that go far beyond sex. It sounds like the old separating-love-and-sex problem. The good news is that this is something that can be resolved. The bad news is that she has to want to resolve it.

 

Right now, she sees your suggestion to swing as you giving back a gift you didn't really like: her sexuality. So she is hurt by this. She wonders if her gift of sexual fidelity is not good enough. It's a bit like her going to the store and picking out something for you very carefully, putting much time and effort into choosing just the right thing and wrapping it perfectly...then when you open your present, you come right out and say, "Well that's nice, but I think I'll take it back to the store and get a XYZ instead." XYZ being something she saw in the store but considered too cheap and tacky to give you.

 

I just remember being in her shoes. I felt that my sexual fidelity was the most precious thing I could give Mr. intuition, but I was wrong. I discovered that the most precious thing I could give to him was the freedom to demonstrate how much he loved me. That meant putting aside my insecurities and trusting him when he told me he would never intentionally hurt me, and allowing him to prove that the charms of other women had no effect on his feelings for or respect for me.

 

So now, sex is just another bodily function. We no longer allow sex to control us or the fate of our relationship. The burden this removes from our shoulders has been enormous, and it's the best thing about swinging.

[Darkblue 55]

I feel you man. Give it time, it's all you can do. Many problems in life turn out to be no problem at all after a little time. I work on difficult problems every day. Sometimes I beat my head against the wall for hours and get nowhere. Eventually I give up and think about something else and suddenly the solution will come magically to mind. Right now you're chained to an idea and maybe your not seeing the big picture. It's also possible that a solution will never come. Don't waste your time. Free yourself. Focus on a new goal and see what happens.

 

Well we had another great long talk yesterday and we are getting there, I feel guilty just looking at the other woman. I don't want to hurt Susanne in anyway whatsoever and if I can avoid it I will.

 

She is now telling me that she doesn't have a problem if I go and play with another woman but now I have a problem that I feel guilty about the idea. I do need a break and I will just play things as they go. I don't see any other way around this. If I see that Susanne isn't happy about anything I do, then I will just take a step back.

 

getnit2gethr - Thank you very very much for your input, you have helped a lot and I will try to focus on something new.

 

Well...she still gave it to you. You were the first one there, right? Is she afraid that that is all she has to offer you? I've never met Susanne, but I am sure that she has a multitude of things to offer that go far beyond sex. It sounds like the old separating-love-and-sex problem. The good news is that this is something that can be resolved. The bad news is that she has to want to resolve it.

 

Right now, she sees your suggestion to swing as you giving back a gift you didn't really like: her sexuality. So she is hurt by this. She wonders if her gift of sexual fidelity is not good enough. It's a bit like her going to the store and picking out something for you very carefully, putting much time and effort into choosing just the right thing and wrapping it perfectly...then when you open your present, you come right out and say, "Well that's nice, but I think I'll take it back to the store and get a XYZ instead." XYZ being something she saw in the store but considered too cheap and tacky to give you.

 

I just remember being in her shoes. I felt that my sexual fidelity was the most precious thing I could give Mr. intuition, but I was wrong. I discovered that the most precious thing I could give to him was the freedom to demonstrate how much he loved me. That meant putting aside my insecurities and trusting him when he told me he would never intentionally hurt me, and allowing him to prove that the charms of other women had no effect on his feelings for or respect for me.

 

So now, sex is just another bodily function. We no longer allow sex to control us or the fate of our relationship. The burden this removes from our shoulders has been enormous, and it's the best thing about swinging.

 

intuition897

 

I have always been so very proud to be able to say I was Susanne's first and no one can ever take that away from US and I make sure that Susanne knows this! I gave the same advice to my daughter telling her she can only give her virginity once and it should be to someone special. She then went out and broke up with her then boyfriend because he wasn't that special person. We are open about things in this family and both my kids know they can come to us with any problems they might have.

 

"It sounds like the old separating-love-and-sex problem."

 

You have hit the nail on the head! She can't or won't separate love and Lust-Sex. I make love to my wife, I would be having sex with another woman, two different things!

 

I discovered that the most precious thing I could give to him was the freedom to demonstrate how much he loved me. That meant putting aside my insecurities and trusting him when he told me he would never intentionally hurt me, and allowing him to prove that the charms of other women had no effect on his feelings for or respect for me.

This is what I am telling Susanne every day, it has to do with Sex and lust not with love. She says she trusts me 100% but I am unsure if she really does. I trust her 110%, I always have.

 

Thank you as well you have given me some good advice and you are one hell of a person to open up and to tell me/us of your previous problems. I guess this is one of those ever returning problems for newbies!!

 

After more talking were getting there but she still isn't to be moved on her no full swap. I just don't know anymore. I feel she is hiding from her own sexuality as she does show an interest and does say she is not totally against a full swap but the next sentence she says it is a no way thing? Now where's that brick wall! :eek:

 

Women, who can understand them? I cant! In fact, I bet none of the guys here do either

[intuition897 2,179]

I discovered that the most precious thing I could give to him was the freedom to demonstrate how much he loved me. That meant putting aside my insecurities and trusting him when he told me he would never intentionally hurt me, and allowing him to prove that the charms of other women had no effect on his feelings for or respect for me.

This is what I am telling Susanne every day, it has to do with Sex and lust not with love. She says she trusts me 100% but I am unsure if she really does. I trust her 110%, I always have.

Yeah, this takes trust to a whole new level, one that many people have great difficulty grasping. I think it's a level of trust on the deepest, most "real" level. It's easy to say that you trust someone, but when it comes right down to it, when it comes time to turn the noun into a verb and actually do the trusting, it's different story. And the response is something like, "What? You mean trust you right NOW?" It's a matter of taking the promises we say and making them actually happen. It can be a real unpleasant slap in the face because we're then forced to confront ourselves: did we really mean what we said?

 

After more talking were getting there but she still isn't to be moved on her no full swap. I just don't know anymore. I feel she is hiding from her own sexuality as she does show an interest and does say she is not totally against a full swap but the next sentence she says it is a no way thing? Now where's that brick wall! :eek:

 

Women, who can understand them? I cant! In fact, I bet none of the guys here do either

Yeah, women are pretty bitchy and high-maintenance. It sort of explains why my bi-curiosity was a passing phase. I just can't relate to them as well as I can to men.

 

Best thing I could suggest is to just agree to only do soft-swap, and make it clear that if she wishes to explore further, you are completely supportive of that, and are ready whenever she is. The rest is the hard part: the waiting.

 

Best of luck to you both.

[Darkblue 55]

The other couple called off our Club visit two hours before we were due to go.

 

Now get this quote from wife, "I wonder if its because I couldn't decide whether I wanted to have Sex with Mr A?" Not a bad statement considering she's been saying it is a definite NO!

[ShellyM 0]

The other couple called off our Club visit two hours before we were due to go.

 

Now get this quote from wife, "I wonder if its because I couldn't decide whether I wanted to have Sex with Mr A?" Not a bad statement considering she's been saying it is a definite NO!

 

Again, communication! Sit down with her and talk it out.

[Darkblue 55]

Talk talk talk, that is all we do at the moment! She say´s one thing then something else the next! That is what is doing my head in.

 

I'm sure we will get there in the end! One way or the other!

 

And once again many many thanks to you all!!you have helped us a lot more than you think!!

[friskymonkey 15]

I'm going to switch and suggest a different tack: Stop talking about it!

 

It sounds like she's pretty confused and you're pretty frustrated. If you're just going around and around then nothing's getting done.

 

I started thinking that (and maybe you're not doing this, maybe you're venting here more than at home) if my husband was talking and talking about full swap swinging I'd be getting more and more turned off to the idea. I'd be wanting him to give it a rest! I'd be sick of hearing about how much he wants to jump this other woman and how turned on he is by her and how he knows what I want even if I don't and how everyone would be knee deep in ecstasy right now if only I wasn't the one holding up the show.

 

Mrs. Steve can certainly speak for herself but I'm *always* the slowest member of the foursome and I can tell you that there's pressure there. Even if everyone's being nice and no one's nagging.

 

I love what Intuition said, I would go back to soft swap and have fun. Let your wife know that you're ready for full swap when she is but otherwise, don't keep bringing it up. I know waiting is hard but the last thing you want is for her to go too far before she's ready and regret it.

[ShellyM 0]

Talk talk talk, that is all we do at the moment! She say´s one thing then something else the next! That is what is doing my head in.

 

I'm sure we will get there in the end! One way or the other!

 

And once again many many thanks to you all!!you have helped us a lot more than you think!!

 

I can tell you that Jay can relate. You have to understand that we women are by nature very vocal, much more so than men seem to be. We will vocalize our thoughts, and I know sometimes Jay can interpret that as a plan of action when actually it was just in my thought process and I was talking to him about it. Men tend to want to "fix" the situation, or do something about it. Women are the same, we just like to think things through and talk more. So men get frustrated, because we seem like we don't know what we want to do. I know you feel like you have talked the subject to death, and you are not alone. If you could talk to Jay he would probably roll his eyes and say something along the lines of "I know what you mean" lol. Try and be patient with her. You just cannot make her move before she is ready, and I know that as a loving man you would not want to do that either. I can understand your frustration though.

[richdon03 31]

I have one suggestion that hasn't been considered yet. Why not just put swinging on the back burner for a while and take the pressure off of both you and your wife. Don't talk about it until she brings it up. Intuition is correct when she talks about the mental and emotional leaps that many (probably most) couples in this lifestyle must overcome to be "successful." Maybe a break from the lifestyle will allow our wife time to process her thoughts and come to terms with her fears.

 

Take some time to focus on just her for a while and she may come around. Sometimes, we men are quite pushy when this is new. She may have the impression (even though she knows you love her) that the swinging is more important than she is.

[Darkblue 55]

Shell -

Thanks for the input and we are getting there slowly but surely and we will in the end! There has been improvement and lots of talking and time to reflect on things and how we feel.

 

And Jay, I agree with you women don't know what they want and when the want it.

 

richdon03-

 

Thank you for your input and we have been taking time out, not talking about swinging, but it has become a large part of our life and we enjoy meeting the people and just going out and enjoying ourselves. We don't want to take a backseat but we have decided that we will take things as they come and if we saop then we swap. If not then not. Just going to play things as they come with no pressure on either of us!

 

WE WILL GET THERE PEEPS!! And we are getting there...

[freekynme 15]

Good luck with it. No pressure no stress just enjoy the people you meet and each other. Like you said if it happens it does and if it doesn't don't beat each other about it. Just keep up your communication. If your wife is against sex with another man, maybe let her try a female with a strap-on. That maybe more her speed. Just don't focus so much on full swap and in her own time she may just come around to it. Or she may find she likes females more and just doesn't have an interest in other men. Who knows? She's a woman and has the right to change her mind at any ole time she feels like it and you just have to respect her wishes no matter how frustrating they may be. :smile:

[Darkblue 55]

I always respect the wishes of my wife and I would never push her too hard. Anything and everything is on hold at the moment. I wont be playing with the other wife at all. They have problems because of me and I am trying to sort that out as well now.

 

The guy thinks because the chemistry is so strong between his wife and I that I am going to take her away from him. So now we (his wife and I) have decided that it not a wise idea to play.

 

However saying that, his wife and I have decided that we will put our bond into a friendship, which to be honest, is the better of the two for all of us, and yes it will be a friendship nothing more.

 

Yes it will work because I am prepared to make it work and so is she.

 

I won't come between them for a night of passion and lust.

 

So now all I need to do is to convince the guy that I won't be playing with his Mrs and why.

 

But how do you do that without him knowing that I know what is going on between him and his Mrs?

[Mr. Truelove 81]

But how do you do that without him knowing that I know what's going on between him and his Mrs?

 

This line stands out to me. Why do you need to hide this information?

[Darkblue 55]

She doesn't want him to know that the three of us have been talking about his problem. If he finds out, he won't like it! He likes to keep things at home and she needs a friend who she can talk to about swinging and the problems that come with it. The German forums are nothing like this one, so you wont get any help from there. No one wants to see anyone else hurt.

[Mr. Truelove 81]

So let me get this straight...

 

The other male of this couple is starting to have a little bit of jealousy about you and his wife. So, as part of his wife's dealing with this she secretly talks to you about it instead of talking to him, and hides it from him...

 

This just looks like it is going to go downhill from here. In my opinion you should be backing off from both of them so they can work out their issues between themselves. They need to build trust, not tear it apart.

 

But this is just a humble opinion from a noob.

[friskymonkey 15]

Steve,

 

I *know* you don't want to hear this but red lights and sirens are going off in my head.

 

The road to heartbreaking, homewrecking affairs is paved with well meaning people who were going to deny their physical attraction and just be "really good friends". And now she's sneaking behind her husband's back to talk to you about their relationship issues? Oy, this is going no where good.

 

Just another noob with a humble opinion.

 

Rooting for you.

[Spoomonkey 421]

She doesn't want him to know that the three of us have been talking about his problem, if he finds out he won't like it!

 

I suppose he won't...

 

Personally, I would more than "not like it" - I'd be downright pissed. First that my wife talked to someone else about our problems, but then those issues were discussed on a public message board... I would be absolutely livid.

 

And what is worse, my trust with my wife would be compromised because she has been discussing our issues with the male half of a swinging couple...

 

Wow...

 

You said that she needs someone to talk to. I can appreciate that, but she also needs to respect her husband. And if he likes to keep things at home, she has failed to respect him and has pretty much handing out the playbill for the next major helping of swing-world drama. This is a couple that does not belong in swinging - and they are exactly the type of couple that, if you are going to swing, you'd do well to avoid. Where there is no respect, there is no stability.

 

So - for those keeping score: jealousy, a lack of respect, cover stories, loss of trust and three pages about how to massage everybody into the same powder keg... errr... bed - I mean bed

 

Is this something you really want to be a part of?

[Darkblue 55]

I can see where you all coming from and you are probably right! I have backed off a lot and the only reason she has told us of their problems is they don't talk enough and when they do they end up arguing all the time.

 

As for putting up problems on an open forum! Well I wouldn't of done this unless I knew they would never find and read this forum! They are German and can't read write or speak English! How many of you would go to a German forum if you were in the same boat as they are?

 

She doesn't have anywhere to turn to at the moment as swinging here is still a very off limits subject and if outed you will be the scourge of the town! This is a very Catholic area and I would guarantee a visit from the vicar would be certain!

 

At the moment all I would to do is to make sure that he knows that I am not a threat to them in anyway whatsoever and yes I mean it!

 

I like both of them far too much to get in between them. I think there's been enough damage as it is. I don't want to leave them alone to try and work things out for themselves because it won't happen.

 

He will never find out that she has spoken to me at least not from our side. I haven't hidden any of this from my wife, she knows what os going on and why and is keen to try and help them as well.

 

I think their problem is they don't talk and don't share their emotions with each other. They love each other to death and you can see that but they do things to each other that hurts them and the worst thing is they know it and still don't do anything about it, even worse they still carry on hurting each other.

 

I don't think that their relationship will last much longer unless someone tell them to wake up and to talk to each other properly.

 

I want to help but I also do not to get the blame if they go wrong.

 

At least in a way it takes our minds off our own minor problem!!

[Spoomonkey 421]

As for putting up problems on an open forum! Well I wouldn't of done this unless I knew they would never find and read this forum! They are German and can't read write or speak English! How many of you would go to a German forum if you were in the same boat as they are?

 

Yes - but we were talking about how he would feel if he found out... So - how would he feel, even if this site is in a language he can't read, that his wife has talked to you (not him) and their issues were talked about more here than they have been at home (where he likes to keep his issues).

 

Hey - you are right - I don't know him from Adam... In fact, you could actually be talking about Adam for all I know... And I know no one in Germany, so I'll never accidentally bump into this guy. But the question was - how would he feel?

 

Now - I have to say it - you are really posting some great stuff for showing what a couple looks like who should not be involved in swinging at all:

 

I think their problem is they don't talk and don't share their emotions with each other. They love each other to death and you can see that but they do things to each other that hurts them and the worst thing is they know it and still don't do anything about it, even worse they still carry on hurting each other.

 

This happens every where... There are a lot of couples just like this on our side of the ocean. But would we swing with them? Not even if it was a stunt on TV...

[getnit2gethr 15]

It sounds as if you are the only two swinging couples in your town. It's amazing that you have any experience at all.

 

Let's say your true intention is to be a swinger, and you do not want to steal this guys wife, and you really want to help them. Then what you need to do is convince this woman to be completely honest with her husband.

 

What if it is her intention is to steal you away from your wife? It's a definite possibility. She may not be right to swing with at all.

[Darkblue 55]

If I could go and talk to someone else about this then I probably would do so and not post on an open forum, and no, I doubt that he would like it if he knew or found out about it but it is unlikely that he will. If he does, shit happens and I will deal with that when/if I come to it.

 

Now - I have to say it - you are really posting some great stuff for showing what a couple looks like who should not be involved in swinging at all

 

Not sure if you mean us or them?

 

We have our problem with swinging but we are getting there and we will get there in the end.

 

As for them, well I just don't know! I personally don't think they should swing as they are only hurting each other but they don't seem to realize that.

[Darkblue 55]

It sounds as if you are the only two swinging couples in your town. It's amazing that you have any experience at all.

 

Let's say your true intention is to be a swinger, and you do not want to steal this guys wife, and you really want to help them. Then what you need to do is convince this woman to be completely honest with her husband.

 

What if it is her intention is to steal you away from your wife? It's a definite possibility. She may not be right to swing with at all.

 

There are not a lot of swingers here where we live and we do travel to meet people, some are 200 miles away. The club we visit is also 140 miles away. We travel because we have to! As for experience we have a little.

 

This what we have been trying to do but every time she tries to speak with him he explodes and starts an argument.

 

If she wants to steal me away from my wife she will have a hard time as I have no intention of going anywhere without my wife...not now, not ever.

[getnit2gethr 15]

This what we have been trying to do but every time she tries to speak with him he explodes and start an argument

Sounds like they are a long way from swinging. Maybe this thread should be move to the cafe, lol.

 

On the other hand, you and your wife might have a single female to play with pretty soon . I know, that's not nice.

[Darkblue 55]

LOL not nice but funny, can't be serious all the time!

 

I don't think I would play with her. I would still feel that it was my fault even though I know it wasn't!

 

P.S. They swing on their own, not as a couple!