GFE - Prostitution In The Lifestyle, Part II

[Spoomonkey 421]

LikeMinds made a comment that was really thought provoking for me (she is kind of good at that) on this thread.

 

I thought it deserved its own thread, so here it is. If prostitution were legalized, how do you think this would affect the lifestyle - and how would those changes affect your experience with the lifestyle?

 

Personally, I think it would water down the club experience to say the least. If more women used the club as a place to conduct business - or if more women came as guests of men who had paid for their company - it would take away the excitement of really connecting with "real people".

 

What do you think?

 

PS - To clarify the terms: YMMV means "Your Mileage May Vary". I've seen it around here, but apparently it is a term used in prostitution that means that a "provider" might give you more or less "attention" based on chemistry and/or mood. GFE means "Girl Friend Experience" - or "I do a good job of pretending like I actually like you" - which I think would be one of the "watering down" affects of prostitution in swinging.

[warkman 31]

We haven't taken the plunge yet, so I'm speculating that much more than a veteran, but I don't think the legalization of prostitution would necessarily be detrimental to swing clubs. It would be up to the individual club owners whether to allow that activity or not. I don't know if club owners would be attracted to taking a "consignment fee" or not. I personally wouldn't want to attend a club that would allow that. As Like Minds said, it diminishes the free social sex atmosphere of the situation. The whole point of swinging is being around and possibly connecting with folks that like the idea of recreational sex and not business sex. I would think some clubs would allow it, and some wouldn't. I would choose the clubs that wouldn't. Spoo's scenario of a guy arriving at a club with working girl in tow poses an interesting situation. Is it that guy's responsibility to pay her for all the other people she might have sex with?? What if he's pimping her? That seems like a really bad mix. If I were a club owner, I wouldn't allow it.

[Spoomonkey 421]

It would be up to the individual club owners whether to allow that activity or not.

 

I think that it might just increase the number of clubs - and it would probably increase their visibility (which would suck). There would probably be clubs that focused specifically on that niche - know what I mean?

 

"Real" swing clubs would probably be even more private, and if they chose not to entertain prostitution, members would inevitably spend more time than is comfortable explaining to newbies (particularly single males who have gone to the "Pay Per Swing" clubs) that - no - my wife is not for sale...

 

Who knows - maybe they'd come up with a "not a hooker" handshake

[warkman 31]

Who knows - maybe they'd come up with a "not a hooker" handshake

 

Yeah, I just don't get it. Most of the interest and excitement for me comes from finding someone who is as sexually attracted to me as I am to them. When it's not about money, I would think it much more gratifying - it's way hotter. Sex for money has its place, but not (imho) in a swing club.

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

Having managed an establishment (in my past adventures) were the lines between brothel, strip club and waterfront tavern blurred, my take on it is that the lifestyle would actually improve.

 

You would be completely and utterly amazed at the number of guys that stop by to get a couple of beers and to look at some pussy and (more often than not) a BJ if the mood strikes. All in the name of a cold beer after work. If you include the theories of supply and demand associated with legalized prostitution, here is what will happen. You now have a place where all the single guy's of questionable honor will congregate, plus all the cheating males and, not to mention, a certain percentages of the swinging rookies. recall just how often around here do we see the question, "What about getting an escort".

 

About a million and one brothels will pop up all over the place. They, like the adult toy/video store industry will span a range of classiness. From the 1000/hour Nevada type to the 20 dollar sticky floor places. Most, if not all will include a liquor liscense and that is where all the people we bitch about will gravitate to. Booze + $$$ = certainty of sexual activity

 

Who is left for the clubs? Us folks ,like the membership here , that want a little more than just 3.2 nano seconds (and a $20) to a wet noodle! I am sure there will be some club owners that try to incorporate both, but they will soon either fold or turn to straight whore houses for the same reasons listed in the other thread.

 

Think about it, which does society have more knowledge of, prostitution or swinging? Open the legal door and the common thought will be to gravitate either to prostitution (leaving us alone) or shun it. Those that shun it will either be the type we want to swing with, or morally replused and stay home (out of our hair). Thus the swinging life improves..win-win

[graygo98 148]

I agree with ANGDKY. If prostitution were legalized a new sort of bar/club venue would likely spring up to cater to people looking for true no strings sex in a non-threatening environment. But it wouldn't be a swing club, more like those "hostess bars" you see on the continent.

 

While there may be people that might hire a "date" so that they can be a part of the "swinging scene" I see the two communities -- swingers and guys who buy sex -- as being two different worlds. And why would a working girl go a club to ply her trade? I can't imagine she would have many (any?) takers. Better to hang out in the bar of a convention hotel.

 

A gifted Canadian journalist (Geroge Jonas) once wrote that prostitution wasn't about selling sex, but rather selling the "illusion of affection." In days gone by I went to my share of strip clubs and that sure seemed to be what the regulars were paying for. They would bring little gifts and remember birthdays , she would ask how his problem with his boss or wife was going... as the mark forked over $20 a song for a lap dances. I am sure that is also the motivation behind the GFE.

 

How many true lifestylers hunger for the "illusion of affection"? Most that we have met already are in exceptionally close and affectionate relationships. At least, the ones we seem to be most attracted to are.

[Spoomonkey 421]

ANGEDKY(mr) said:

Having managed an establishment (in my past adventures) were the lines between brothel, strip club and waterfront tavern blurred, my take on it is that the lifestyle would actually improve.

 

Read this paragraph alone and I would have said, "you're nuts!"

 

But this post, and GrayGo's, that follows are thought provoking to say the least.

 

I wouldn't have thought of it that way in a million years. Put these together with Good Times post in the other thread (yeah, I am thinking starting two threads was pretty dumb - but what can I say? I'm a monkey?) I would say that so far the position of legal prostitution actually improving the lifestyle as a whole is pretty compelling.

 

Great discussion! Thanks for making me think!

[kush2112 20]

For us it would ruin the whole thing and we would give up on clubs 100%. What a turn-off it would be to have people like that come to clubs.

[good times 991]

I think that your assumption that if prostitution were legalized it would not be regulated or would be allowed in swingers clubs would not be the case. In fact, if it were ever to be more widely legalized the main reason for legalization is so that it could be regulated more and taxed of course. So if prostitution were to be legalized my guess is it would only be legal in licensed brothels similar to the way it is now in Nevada. So my opinion is that it would have no impact on swinging at all as the only prostitutes at the swingers clubs would be operating illegally as they are now.

[SW_PA_Couple 4,026]

Prostitution is legal in The Netherlands. The swinging lifestyle is very much alive in that country.

[BradAndJanet 70]

The way I see it, the only thing we lose are the towel sharks...

[Tybee Swing 286]

Most of the interest and excitement for me comes from finding someone who is as sexually attracted to me as I am to them. When it's not about money, I would think it much more gratifying - it's way hotter.

 

I agree, and I think this is how most swingers feel. What attracts most swingers to swinging isn't something you can buy. It's hardly ever about just sex and only sex, it's also about the mutual attraction, connecting, the pursuit, etc. Most couples really like to connect with other couples. Most of us like genuine sex with people who are truly enjoying the experience. If we knew a partner was just there for the $$, it would be a turn-off for a lot of people.

 

I can see one way that prostitution would work for some couples, and that's to obtain the ever-popular FMF threesome with an attractive, bi, and single female. In fact, that's what we've seen on HBO, on that show about the Bunny Ranch - quite a few couples going there for a threesome.

 

I don't see how combining prostitution and swinging under one roof would be a good idea, though! Two very different motivations, it seems.

[sereneiders 263]

I guess it's very simple. If the club fee to enter (moreover for single males) exceeds the budget needed to hire a prostitute and pay the hotel room, then you won't have prostitution in swingers clubs.

[Tybee Swing 286]

I guess it's very simple. If the club fee to enter (moreover for single males) exceeds the budget needed to hire a prostitute and pay the hotel room, then you won't have prostitution in swingers clubs.

 

$100-$200 and up for a cover charge to get in? I think that a swing club charging that kind of entrance fee would be out of business on the first week.

[singleagain 26]

kush2112 wrote "For us it would ruin the whole thing and we would give up on clubs 100%. What a turn-off it would be to have people like that come to clubs."

 

I am a single male. The new "friend" I have accompanies me to a couple of different clubs on occasion and we enjoy ourselves immensly. Prior to meeting her my trips to clubs were limited to certain nights and not much activity as I would be one of many average single males available to the few couples there. Let me hasten to add that I have been a swinger for almost 30 years and prior to my wife's demise I personally had never experienced the kind of rejection I get as a single guy, even by some of the same people we used to swing with. As soon as I showed up with a woman on my arm I was suddenly accepted again. All the clubs I attend have a "no prostitution" policy so I am very discrete and do not tell them that my new "friend" recevies several things of value for her time with me at the club. First, she gets to swing which she enjoys very much. Second she get the protection of a male escorting her so she doesn't worry about getting hit on by the dreaded "single guy". And third, she earns a sizable amount of money with which she supports herself and her infant daughter. There are several advantages for me as well. I'll leave all of them to your imaganation as I can see the flames coming now, anyway. For me, having a GFE prostitute on my arm when I show up at a club allows me to continue to live the lifestyle with a person I enjoy being with. For her, she earns a living while she gets all the recreational sex she wants. By the way, she never gets paid from anyone but me and she never approaches others at the clubs asking for money for sex.

 

With all that said, I think that allowing prostitution in a swingers club is generally a bad idea. With the exception of Nevada it would be illegal. That means police raids, arrests and public exposure for all included. Remember, we are in the minority. Most people think we are obssesive perverts.

[Spoomonkey 421]

For me, having a GFE prostitute on my arm when I show up at a club allows me to continue to live the lifestyle with a person I enjoy being with.

 

Do you tell the couples that you play with that your companion is an escort? Some would be uncomfortable playing with her if they had this information - and down right pissed if they found out after the fact. While I understand your desire to swing, I think it is selfish and irresponsible to subject others to sex with a prostitute just so you can be with the "in crowd" again.

[kush2112 20]

Do you tell the couples that you play with that your companion is an escort? Some would be uncomfortable playing with her if they had this information - and down right pissed if they found out after the fact. While I understand your desire to swing, I think it is selfish and irresponsible to subject others to sex with a prostitute just so you can be with the "in crowd" again.

When are you going to let people state their own opinions instead of telling the world for them? Do you work for the Bush administration or something?

[Spoomonkey 421]

When are you going to let people state their own opinions instead of telling the world for them? Do you work for the Bush administration or something?

 

I would like to think that everyone here can express an opinion - including me.

 

And for the record, politics are not discussed on this board. PLEASE read the TOS. That said, you obviously have misjudged mine. You seem to have a knack for inaccurate statements...

[kush2112 20]

I would like to think that everyone here can express an opinion - including me.

 

And for the record, politics are not discussed on this board. PLEASE read the TOS. That said, you obviously have misjudged mine. You seem to have a knack for inaccurate statements...

 

So this statement is not speaking for other individuals? “Some would be uncomfortable playing with her if they had this information - and down right pissed if they found out after the fact.” This came right from your post, word for word. Are you the some in this statement? Some implies more than one, are you more than one individual? I think not, therefore, you are trying to speak for others. I can also tell when you know you are wrong, because you go off topic every time.

[graygo98 148]

He is saying that in his opinion it is at best misleading to other people to pass off a hooker as your SO so that you can be part of the scene if you don't make disclosure up front.

 

I think he's right. Personally, we would be so pissed to find out after the fact that it might get very ugly.

[Spoomonkey 421]

I think he's right. Personally, we would be so pissed to find out after the fact that it might get very ugly.

 

Thanks, graygo. That is my point. I know that in places where prostitution is regulated, STDs might be well controlled. But, the perception and comfort level is still such that people wouldn't be comfortable playing with a "professional". If you consider that in most states (and by most, I mean more than 10% ) prostitution is illegal and unregulated, that only compounds the level of discomfort.

 

Being exposed to a heightened risk unaware would bother me.

[kush2112 20]

He is saying that in his opinion it is at best misleading to other people to pass off a hooker as your SO so that you can be part of the scene if you don't make disclosure up front.

 

I think he's right. Personally, we would be so pissed to find out after the fact that it might get very ugly.

I’m not saying that anyone would not agree with him. I am saying that other individuals can speak their mind on their own as you just did.

[singleagain 26]

Spoomonkey said "Do you tell the couples that you play with that your companion is an escort? Some would be uncomfortable playing with her if they had this information - and down right pissed if they found out after the fact. While I understand your desire to swing, I think it is selfish and irresponsible to subject others to sex with a prostitute just so you can be with the "in crowd" again."

 

That depends upon the couple. It has been my experience that many couples never inquire about more than whether a person has std's while others want a complete background check. My "escort" has check-ups at her doctor's office every month, always uses condoms and sees a few select clients. I had to pass a serious back-ground check before she would even see me the first time. I find it quite interesting that the only time I ever contracted any sexually transmitted problems was while visiting a swing club in Tennessee in the 80's. Both my wife and I came away from that experience with a serious case of crab lice. We shaved before it was common practice. Had we been a little more careful about who we played with that night we might not have had that sad experience.

 

In any case, for the ones who have asked how I met her, we have been forthcoming. But, as I suspect most swingers practice, we have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

 

kush2112 said "I can also tell when you know you are wrong, because you go off topic every time."

 

Some of the best advice I have ever read came from Spoomonkey. He is level headed and right on target almost every time. As for his question to me, I think it is in order and worded just right. As for his understanding of swinging, he impresses me with not only his understanding of that subject but his understanding of people as well...kudos Spoo.

[Spoomonkey 421]

My "escort" has check-ups at her doctor's office every month, always uses condoms and sees a few select clients. I had to pass a serious back-ground check before she would even see me the first time.

 

Fair enough - and it is up to each couple to play in situations where they feel comfortable doing so.

 

Here is another question - and I do appreciate the gracious way that you answered the last one - as well as the undeserved compliment - all "exchange of monies" takes place away from the club, correct? While this may be a technicality, I would say that this does insulate the club from potential legal tangles (at least, I hope it does).

 

Someone else can correct me if I am wrong.

 

Thanks again for your response and for clarifying things a bit better. I am glad that you are enjoying the lifestyle again. Good luck out there!

[The Fuse 1,012]

So this statement is not speaking for other individuals? “Some would be uncomfortable playing with her if they had this information - and down right pissed if they found out after the fact.” This came right from your post, word for word. Are you the some in this statement? Some implies more than one, are you more than one individual? I think not, therefore, you are trying to speak for others. I can also tell when you know you are wrong, because you go off topic every time.

 

kush2112,

 

One of the ways it becomes apparent that someone is out of line on this board is when they start attacking an individual, rather than the opinions of that individual. You are attacking Spoomonkey. He is quite capable of defending himself, so I'm not out to do that.

 

But as someone who enjoys reading this board because of my respect for the people who post, and their opinions, I'd like to ask that you address the thread topic when you post, and refrain from picking petty fights. If you disagree with someone's statement, then say you disagree, but please don't make it personal. This is a discussion board, not a place to flame people.

[Chicup 42]

When are you going to let people state their own opinions instead of telling the world for them? Do you work for the Bush administration or something?

 

Crazy kilt man is happy. He is happy because for once he isn’t the target of such a reply. Spoo do you ever get these kind of replies in a PM? I get them every so often, normally someone pissed off with my opinion, sometimes from lurkers who have been lurking here for years and never posted.

 

So this statement is not speaking for other individuals? “Some would be uncomfortable playing with her if they had this information - and down right pissed if they found out after the fact.” This came right from your post, word for word. Are you the some in this statement? Some implies more than one, are you more than one individual? I think not, therefore, you are trying to speak for others. I can also tell when you know you are wrong, because you go off topic every time.

 

That’s not speaking for other individuals, that’s just common sense. I have to really think hard to think of a couple who wouldn’t be upset with this and those are couples we wouldn’t play with based on personality. As a rule I think Spoo can speak for me on most issues, so if he does it again, you can rest assured he's speaking for others with the proper authority.

 

Singleagain – So if we were to meet a club, talked a bit, and if I said ‘So are you guys married?’ how would you respond? I have a hard time picturing someone saying ‘No, I pay her to come here so I can still enjoy the lifestyle’.

 

Based on what you described, STD’s wouldn’t be a worry, and perhaps less so than with some couples, but I still wouldn’t feel ‘right’ playing. Being you brought her there so basically you could play with my wife, the implication to me is that you basically paid to have sex with my wife. Now I know this might not be completely logical, but its not too far off to make me feel comfortable with it.

 

Or perhaps another way to look at it, is that you are still the ‘dreaded’ single guy, only thing is you paid for a hooker for me. Now you say she really does enjoy the experience, and that might well be true, but I’d always have my nagging suspicions about it and I’d never want to play with a woman who I thought might not really want to play with me but was being either forced to by a overbearing husband, or paid by a client unwilling to leave the lifestyle.

[meandher2go 17]

Me and her both agree prostitution should be legal. Everyone gets what they want and that includes the taxes being paid.

 

We have admitted to hiring one in the past and would do it again if we feel the need.

 

We don't do the club thing so we can comment on that.

[singleagain 26]

Spoomonkey said "Here is another question - and I do appreciate the gracious way that you answered the last one - as well as the undeserved compliment - all "exchange of monies" takes place away from the club, correct? While this may be a technicality, I would say that this does insulate the club from potential legal tangles (at least, I hope it does)."

 

When we walk through the door all business transactions have been taken care of. There is never any hint that she is a "professional". I hasten to add that many of the people I have met in the lifestyle have jobs outside the norm. I have met prostitutes, strippers and escorts. Just because they have a job that some don't approve of doesn't make them bad or mean that they should never be allowed in a swing club. If I married this woman and she wished to continue her "profession" I would not object and I would hope we would keep on swinging.

 

Chicup asks "So if we were to meet a club, talked a bit, and if I said ‘So are you guys married?’ how would you respond?" Good question and I would say the same thing any other couple should respond with...a simple no always suffices. A better question might be (if you thought it warranted) is "What is your profession?" Of course most swingers I know don't want to talk about their profession for pure reasons of privacy. By the way, what is your profession?

[singleagain 26]

Chicup says "Based on what you described, STD’s wouldn’t be a worry, and perhaps less so than with some couples, but I still wouldn’t feel ‘right’ playing. Being you brought her there so basically you could play with my wife, the implication to me is that you basically paid to have sex with my wife. Now I know this might not be completely logical, but its not too far off to make me feel comfortable with it.

 

Or perhaps another way to look at it, is that you are still the ‘dreaded’ single guy, only thing is you paid for a hooker for me. Now you say she really does enjoy the experience, and that might well be true, but I’d always have my nagging suspicions about it and I’d never want to play with a woman who I thought might not really want to play with me but was being either forced to by a overbearing husband, or paid by a client unwilling to leave the lifestyle. "

 

I neither pay for a hooker for you nor do I pay for a hooker in hopes of getting to have sex with your wife. I pay for a hooker simply because I haven't found a willing partner who is single and not cheating. And my escort really does enjoy herself. Actually what I have paid for is a night of the purest pleasure at a price roughly equivalent to the prices I used to pay when I took my wife to clubs. And my escort tells me that when she is with me at a club she feels free to be herself and enjoys the moment much more because of it. And of course there is never any jealousy or turmoil...no drama...and everybody goes home very happy and pleased. By the way, don't think for a minute that this is about the money on my part. It is about the pleasure, not only for me, but for her and for the couples we play with.

 

It is different, but let me say this...a female friend who met my escort friend aong with her husband had her first ff experience with her. That was about three months ago and she hasn't come down from the highly charged experience yet. Says it was a great way to learn things bi and is grateful for the opportunity. The poor thing had been rejected by every woman at the club until we came along. When they later were talking with us at McDonalds over a cup of coffee she discovered what my escort does for a living. Her first reaction was somewhat similar to what you described you might feel. But before we left she asked when we could get together again...oh well...it takes all kinds to float a boat...doesn't it?

[Tybee Swing 286]

There are several advantages for me as well. I'll leave all of them to your imaganation as I can see the flames coming now, anyway.

 

Hi singleagain,

 

I'm not going to flame you. Personally, I think it was very brave of you to share this information. I'm fascinated and curious - I don't think I've ever met or talked with a man who had an arrangement like this. Mind if I ask curious questions?

 

First, what are the several advantages to you that you mentioned? I know of course that admittance into the club on any night you want to go, and acceptance there as part of a "couple" are two of the reasons, of course. Then, there is the sex, of course. Are there any other advantages to you?

 

How did you become acquainted with your swing partner? Did she have a profile on one of the standard swinger/alternative lifestyle websites? Or, was it through a service? Or referred by a friend?

 

My "escort" has check-ups at her doctor's office every month, always uses condoms and sees a few select clients. I had to pass a serious back-ground check before she would even see me the first time.

 

She sounds more safety-oriented than any swingers I've met (especially the monthly testing, and requiring a background check before she'd even meet you).

 

Have you tried meeting single ladies who, just like yourself, want to enter or get back into swinging with a "friend", for free? Perhaps they have been widowed or divorced? (I know two committed couples who started that way.) I'm just curious if you've looked for a woman like that, or if you even would want to?

 

First, she gets to swing which she enjoys very much. Second she get the protection of a male escorting her so she doesn't worry about getting hit on by the dreaded "single guy".

 

#1 and #2 are benefits that a single, divorced or widowed lady would be interested in by connecting with a male friend to attend clubs as a couple, too. I'm fascinated that a prostitute has these same reasons for going in with you. In fact, I wonder why a prostitute would worry about getting hit on by a single man...isn't that what they do? (I'm not doubting you and I'm not being sarcastic - I'm sincerely asking.)

 

And third, she earns a sizable amount of money with which she supports herself and her infant daughter.

 

Is this her only means of income? How does she get away with it with the IRS, or when she needs to give evidence of income & employment (such as when applying for any sort of credit)?

 

I have been a swinger for almost 30 years and prior to my wife's demise I personally had never experienced the kind of rejection I get as a single guy, even by some of the same people we used to swing with.

 

Forgive me if the following assumption is wrong, but is your "friend" much, much younger than you are? (You were a swinger for 30 years prior; she has an infant.) Does her age impact your choice to bring her to the club with you as your "other half", so so speak? Other half of a swinging team, that is. Does it enable you to play with much younger couples that you might not hook up with, otherwise? Do you choose to pay a much younger woman over developing a non-paying friendship or relationship with a swinging lady closer to your age?

 

(I realize these are personal questions. Please don't take offense. I'm just very interested in this. I'm really looking forward to the answers and learning about this.)

 

With all that said, I think that allowing prostitution in a swingers club is generally a bad idea. With the exception of Nevada it would be illegal. That means police raids, arrests and public exposure for all included. Remember, we are in the minority. Most people think we are obssesive perverts.

 

I agree. People coming in working swing club patrons for money is a different situation from one man bringing in a prostitute as his "guest" and being discreet about it. Not that I'm personally on board with this, but yes, it's a very different thing.

 

I'm going to share how I'd feel in the shoes of the people you encounter in clubs. Please know this isn't intended to flame you. This is just me expressing how I feel about it, as a swinger.

 

I have to agree with Spoo and others - I believe that many couples in the Lifestyle would take offense to learning they've just had sex with a prostitute, as opposed to an actual couple like themselves. Even if the couple they've just been with is apparently "just dating" (not in a very serious relationship yet) or appears to be friends/swing partners (not for money), this is a big difference from the reality that this couple is a man and his paid escort. I know my husband and I would be very rattled by that, to say the least.

 

It does sound like you and the woman you bring with you actually like each other and enjoy each other's company a great deal. She's your "regular", you know her safety & check-up routine (very thorough; moreso than most swingers), and you know that she services only a select few clients. You know she requires extensive background checks of her clients (and I assume STD tests). You didn't just pick her up on a corner 10 minutes before you got to the club. Not that it would make a difference for me if I had this detailed information up front before we headed back to a room together...I'm just not 100% sure how I'd feel about sex with you two if I had all of the facts.

 

One thing I know for certain...I respect honesty a great deal, and being misled or deliberately deceived really pisses me off. If someone omits facts, stretches the truth, or lies to me for their own self-serving purposes, that's pure manipulation to me. I would feel very used because you went through all that charade just to score with me under false pretenses. I couldn't abide it. You and the prostitute have an honest relationship with each other; you both know what the deal is and what you're in it for. But, you wouldn't be giving your swing partners the same courtesy and respect.

 

Anyhow, I do admire the fact that you came out and talked about your arrangement on this board. It gives us a chance to hear from people whose situation isn't commonplace in swinging, and it's a chance to learn from you.

[Tybee Swing 286]

While I was typing my last post (long, I know), you were answering the others. I hope you don't mind my questions.

 

It is different, but let me say this...a female friend who met my escort friend along with her husband had her first ff experience with her. That was about three months ago and she hasn't come down from the highly charged experience yet. Says it was a great way to learn things bi and is grateful for the opportunity. The poor thing had been rejected by every woman at the club until we came along.

 

Very interesting. Was it just the two girls playing, or did you all four participate? What was your female friend's actual initial response, when she found out the true nature of your arrangement? What changed her mind and made her decide that she'd like to do this again (now that she's in the loop)?

 

Why did all the other women at the club reject your friend?

[curiousagain 326]

 

I am a single male. The new "friend" I have accompanies me to a couple of different clubs on occasion and we enjoy ourselves immensly. Prior to meeting her my trips to clubs were limited to certain nights and not much activity as I would be one of many average single males available to the few couples there. Let me hasten to add that I have been a swinger for almost 30 years and prior to my wife's demise I personally had never experienced the kind of rejection I get as a single guy, even by some of the same people we used to swing with. As soon as I showed up with a woman on my arm I was suddenly accepted again. All the clubs I attend have a "no prostitution" policy so I am very discrete and do not tell them that my new "friend" recevies several things of value for her time with me at the club.

 

I'm sorry being a SM in the lifestyle was so tough on you.

Need a T-Shirt? I've got a couple of extras if you need one. I'm not going to be the antagonist or protagonist either way on this, but in a nation that doesn't allow corking a bat or the use of performance enhancing steroids, I don't think the majority of swingers are going to be in your camp on this.

 

Part of the allure of swinging is pure sex/desire. I'm pretty active in the dating world and part of what you have to watch for is the dates who are looking for a breadwinner, shoulder to cry on, protector from the world, co-enabler, Father for their children, etc. In the swing world, if someone wants to have sex with me, I know it's because they find me sexually desirable. That's it, end of story. They don't care how much money I make, if I'm good with kids, my standing in the community, how large my house is, what kind of pets I own, etc. etc. etc. That is a turn on for me. If I thought a woman was being paid to have sex with me, it would be a turn off. Therein lies the problem. Even those who have no problem with her being a prostitute, might likely have a problem with feeling like she was being paid to have sex with them and/or their spouse.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

Here is another question - and I do appreciate the gracious way that you answered the last one - as well as the undeserved compliment - all "exchange of monies" takes place away from the club, correct? While this may be a technicality, I would say that this does insulate the club from potential legal tangles (at least, I hope it does).

 

Someone else can correct me if I am wrong.

 

Actually this thread got my curiousity up so I went on a "short" search for clubs that we have either been too, or might go to and checked out their rules on this topic. (club names have been withheld to protect the innocent )

 

I'll apologize in advance to 'singleagain' since this isn't an attack just what I found out and what my thoughts are on it.

 

Club #1 No Member shall engage in prostitution and or be employed as an escort, or solicit sexual acts for money or receive money for any sexual act whatsoever. No member will encourage or request other Members to engage in such activities.

 

Club#2 No prostitution. Any exchange of money or valuables for sex or sexual favors is prostitution and will not be tolerated.

 

Club #3 NO PROSTITUTION OR ESCORTS PERMITTED AT ANYTIME.

 

Club #4 NO PROSTITUTION!

There will be no selling of services of any kind on the club premises. If caught soliciting, you will be removed from the club and the local authorities will be notified. Once you pay at the door, keep your money in your pockets.

 

Club #5 NO PROSTITUTION or ESCORTS

 

 

I found this very interesting and relevant to this thread. Clubs don't want it or allow it. Maybe they know something we don't. I don't necessarily have a problem about prostitution being legal, in fact, I sometimes think it would be good for the girls (safer) and the government could tax the hell out of the industry They tax every thing else that is a vice...alcohol, cigarettes, they even tax you when you get your hair and nails done now

 

I think though that if it was to be legalized then the "legalities" of it or the rules/regulations should keep it a separate entity (i.e. still can do it in a swing club). Swinging is a lifestyle different from just about everything else even prostitution. I personally don't want to find out, especially after we have played that Spoo was just with a prostitute. Can't give any definitive reason or answer for it other than I/we don't want to play that way. I don't think most swingers do (yes I am generalizing) based on the fact that clubs don't want it even if it is an escort and the money has been exchanged prior to arrival.

[good times 991]

Part of the allure of swinging is pure sex/desire. I'm pretty active in the dating world and part of what you have to watch for is the dates who are looking for a breadwinner, shoulder to cry on, protector from the world, co-enabler, Father for their children, etc. In the swing world, if someone wants to have sex with me, I know it's because they find me sexually desirable. That's it, end of story. They don't care how much money I make, if I'm good with kids, my standing in the community, how large my house is, what kind of pets I own, etc. etc. etc. That is a turn on for me. If I thought a woman was being paid to have sex with me, it would be a turn off. Therein lies the problem. Even those who have no problem with her being a prostitute, might likely have a problem with feeling like she was being paid to have sex with them and/or their spouse.

Wow, this thread has taken a fascinating turn and in a direction that I have some experience with so I have some comments to add that actually apply to a lot of the posts above, but one of the main things is to address what curiousagin hit on here.

 

People often have the missconception that a prostitute, because she has sex for a living would not enjoy purely recreation sex just like anyone else. While I understand how someone could make that assumption I can tell you that it is an incorrect one. I think because prostitution is legal in Nevada it is much easier for them to admit what they do for a living than it might be elsewhere. For that reason I know a few legal Nevada prostitutes that are regular attendees of the clubs here. One of the things I have noticed about them is that, like the way we separate sex and love, they are very good at separating sex for fun and sex for a living. The former is the same as it is for anyone of us, in the latter case one must keep in mind that what they do for a living is what their clients want, what they want never enters the picture when they are working. So when they are having sex for fun their considerations when picking play partners is the same as it is for any one of you, their play partner at the swing club is not going to be paying them so they feel no compulsion to play with anyone they don't feel a sexual attraction too.

 

As far as the higher risk for std's that was alluded to above goes, in Nevada at least, all legal prostitutes are required to be tested for std's once a week. So if I were worried about std's with my swing partners, someone who is tested weekly is probably a lot safer bet than the average swinger. This is probably one of the main things that compelled me to really seek out and read the available studies on std transmission. Because std's being contracted in Nevada brothels almost never happens (I say almost because although I have never heard of it happening I can't say it never has), which if one believes all the std scare adds and propaganda you would think that would not be the case.

 

To the question of whether the men these prostitutes come to the club with pay them as their companions? I suspect it happens. I know a few of them well enough to know they attend with their husbands, so I highly doubt they are being paid to come. In another case the woman always comes with the same guy so I always assumed that he was her husband or boyfriend, but I have to say that as long as she is picking her playmates based on her attraction to them, it wouldn't make any difference to me if he was paying her or not. While I do think it would be possible that a guy would pay a woman to play with a husband so that he could play with the wife, that just doesn't seem likely to happen very often to me.

 

Curiousagin and a couple of others above said that if the prostitute is being paid to have sex with them it would piss them off because they want to only have sex with someone who finds them attractive. While I agree, I have to say that if one swings for very long they will at some time or other, "take one for the team" in other words, you will have sex with someone who really doesn't do it for you. If that is the case it is unrealistic to believe that at some point you won't be having sex with someone who is, "taking one for the team" and doesn't find you sexually attractive either, so what is the difference? I know that we always say, "don't ever take one for the team" a lot around here, but lets face it, most of us have done it whether we intended to or not.

 

In the end, in Nevada where prostitution is regulated, I think that most peoples bias for not wanting to play with a prostitute who is out for a night of recreational sex is based more on the same kind of prejudice that vanillas have against swingers than it is for any real reason that it would be less safe or less enjoyable than playing with a woman who is a homemaker or a lawyer. I understand completely though, I thought these same things until I met and got to know a few of them and found out that they are just regular people like the rest of us.

[flkeyscouple 21]

What a wonderful post, Good times. Eye opening, and heartfelt. Food for thought for me. Thanks.

[curiousagain 326]

I didn't say it would piss me off, just wouldn't be a turn on. I wouldn't want a date to have sex with me just because I bought them dinner either, or a wife having sex with me so I wouldn't be grumpy at breakfast the next day, or a female friend because they're looking for a Father figure for Timmy. But, that's just me.

 

Prostitutes are doing it for money. Anybody that says they've never done anything for the money is suffering from a severe memory disorder or are lying. It's certainly nothing to scorn.

 

You make a good point though, if money exchanges hands irregardless of who is played with then they are making the same choices any female half of a couple would.

 

The question to be asked, would she go to the same places with the same man and do the same things if no money was exchanged. That would be the difference, wouldn't it?

 

He's already explained the difference in his swinging with and without her. What would be the difference in her swinging with and without the money?

 

edit: What I am trying to say through a benedryl haze is that there is a difference if the woman is a swinger who prostitutes for a living versus a prostitute who is paid to swing. Geeez, I need to get over this illness or just go ahead and take the whole damn bottle.

 

edit: Crap I mispelled benadryl. I'm going to bed. g'nite all.

[wyandly 15]

Hello again, I normally dont chime in on a topic, since I'de much rather lurk and learn, but I feel there is something I can add here. While reading this thread, an idea that I once picked up from a book popped into my head: In societies where people are open and unashamed of their sexuality, prostitution is laughed at as being absurd. I believed it then as I do now because it really would be silly to have to pay for something that you can (theoretically) get just by asking, and 'having' to pay throws the notion of just asking into serious question. I think that is how some of you see this, even though its been said in different ways.

[Spoomonkey 421]

I know that we always say, "don't ever take one for the team" a lot around here, but lets face it, most of us have done it whether we intended to or not.

 

Of course we all have. We have taken one for the team - and been the bean ball a time or two. But that doesn't mean that we simply shrug our shoulders and do it again. And if we know that we are being taken for the team, why would we put ourselves in that situation?

 

Frankly, I can't get wood unless I feel like the woman I am playing with is attracted to me.

 

If a prostitute comes to a club, not on the clock so to speak, and is looking for recreational sex... Well - that has really never been an issue in this thread so far. And in a way, if after having sex with lots of men, she finds me attractive, I suppose that would be a compliment. Whether I would play with her would be a matter of personal choice based on my comfort levels - fair or unfair, rational or not - at the moment.

 

But, if a prostitute comes with a man as his "escort" - bought and paid for - and the male (her customer) says, "I want to play with them" one would assume that her veto powers are fairly limited. Sure, she can say "no" but prostitutes play with men they aren't really interested in quite a bit, I would guess.

 

I understand what you are saying, but I am not completely sure it is relevant. Prostitution is not legal in Ohio. And as you have said, it is not legal outside of the brothels in Nevada. So - having sex with someone who is paid to do it at a swing club would be illegal - and in no way within my comfort zone.

[Chip_n_Muffy 16]

If I were in the situation, and found out later that the woman I was with was a paid by the night escort and had sex with me so that her partner could have sex with Muffy, I would feel used. And so would Muffy I imagine. The bottom line is, I do not like liars. In my business life, in my personal life, or in my sex life. And I doubt any rationalization, any explaining, any "try to understand" would take that feeling away from me.

 

Is it possible for a swinger to feel "used and dirty?" I think it is.

[good times 991]

Frankly, I can't get wood unless I feel like the woman I am playing with is attracted to me.

I agree, neither can I.

 

I actually agree with your post, I also realize that unless you live in Nevada you probably aren't going to run into many prostitutes at the clubs and even if you did they probably wouldn't admit to their illegal occupation unless they were trying to solicit the club patrons.

 

Another thing I didn't mention that I wanted to was that all of the swingers clubs in Nevada that we know of also have statements regarding prostitution similar to the ones Mrs. Spoo quoted above in their club rules.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I’m not saying that anyone would not agree with him. I am saying that other individuals can speak their mind on their own as you just did.

 

Yes, they can, they do and they will continue to do so. It is a fairly common occurance on here for people to give an overall opinion of what others might think in a situation in the same way that Spoo did "many may think" or "some may think"... heck some may be 2 people and with that in mind it is perfectly rational for Spoo to use the word Spoo and maybe he was only speaking for him and his wife.

 

Instead of spending so much energy attacking others words, why not give your own opinion on the subject. No one is stopping you.

[sereneiders 263]

$100-$200 and up for a cover charge to get in? I think that a swing club charging that kind of entrance fee would be out of business on the first week.

 

Well... it deppends on where you live and what's the price for a room in a motel. And yes, here prostitution isn't illegal, some clubs allow prostitutes (they say it's for the sake of get rid of the singles who otherwise could bother the regulars), while others doesn't. Translating the exchange ration to the cost of living, I'd say a single entrance fee doubles the fee for a couple, which is about the same a guy have to pay for a middle class prostitute plus an hour in a motel.

 

The club where we use to go is two blocks away from a brothel, the club is seldom hidden while the brothel it's pretty notorious on the corner. Single guys are discouraged by the fees. Prostitues, unless dealing with club owners, realize this isn't the best place to make money. The fact is, once in a moth or two you see a prostitute comming and attempting to make her business, to realize there are better places where to make money.

[sereneiders 263]

I believe there are a mix of issues here leading us to different perspectives.

 

1) The legal issue and the way it could affect third ones (the examples about a police raid). This varies from place to place, and we should set up the proper scenario before providin some anser (i.e. prostitution being ilegal, being "tolerated" -not ilegal neither regulated-, or legal and somehow regulated).

 

2) What do we mean by "prostitution in the lifestyle"? the fact that someone is a prostitute (with all the degrees: full/part time, regularly, have a "minimum standard" to accept someone as a customer... and the opposite even if being prostitute, being able to enjoy sex enough as to do it "for free" with someone), or the fact that someone is working as a prostitute INSIDE a club?

 

3) The "ego issue" #1, our need to feel we're "desirable" when someone have sex with us, versus the incertainity about having sex even when they may dislike us, much like a conflict of interests.

 

4) The "ego issue" #2, to feel it's an unfair competition to provide sex and plasure motivated on your own feelings, next to someone who's doing the same "professionally" and may be up to go further because of this.

 

5) The requirement for other swingers to share the same standards we have for ourselves about deception.

 

The problem is, we label as prostitute the exchange of sex for money. Some people may label our wifes as prostitutes just because of being swingers. Add the "once prostitute, always prostitute" factor to the fact that many marriages can be seen as an economical transaction that in part involves, implicitly, an exchange of sex for money... and even there are married couples who "roleplay" the prostitute scene where the wife is being paid to have sex... so the question is... what's a prostitute for the sake of this discussion?

 

And, what's "prostitution"? For example, a marriage roleplaying the prostitute scene, wanting to charge someone for the sake of their game inside the club, would be the same than a "professional" doing the same?

 

I believe there are a lot of blurry boundaries here, as to ensure we're all discussing the same question.

[Tybee Swing 286]

People often have the missconception that a prostitute, because she has sex for a living would not enjoy purely recreation sex just like anyone else.

 

I believe that a prostitute, like anybody, could enjoy recreational sex as much as anybody else. However, if she's being paid to be at the club as an escort, I think she's there for the money. This is not referring to prostitutes who may be there "off the clock" with their spouse/boyfriend.

 

Curiousagin and a couple of others above said that if the prostitute is being paid to have sex with them it would piss them off because they want to only have sex with someone who finds them attractive. While I agree, I have to say that if one swings for very long they will at some time or other, "take one for the team" in other words, you will have sex with someone who really doesn't do it for you.

 

I'm one of the people who said I'd be pissed off, but not for the reason you stated. I wouldn't be pissed because she was paid and therefore didn't actually find me and/or my husband attractive, I'd be pissed because I wasn't informed that I just had sex with a prostitute. I think that I have the right to know this before going in. I would especially be pissed off that the prostitute and her customer are posing as a real couple , which is manipulation. The customer knows that a large percentage of couples in the club aren't going to want to get with a john and his known prostitute, so they pass themselves off as a couple. I hate lies. I like to meet people in the lifestyle who are honest about who they are.

 

Another reason I'd be pissed is because I live in one of the other 49 states where prostitution is illegal. Besides the legality issues, it would be up to the prostitute herself how safely she practices her trade (if at all), and how often she gets check-ups and tested (if ever). Unless I have honest disclosure and the right to examine her background if I choose to, I don't think her john should impose her on my husband and I, passing her as something she's not. That's all.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

If I were in the situation, and found out later that the woman I was with was a paid by the night escort and had sex with me so that her partner could have sex with Muffy, I would feel used. And so would Muffy I imagine. The bottom line is, I do not like liars. In my business life, in my personal life, or in my sex life. And I doubt any rationalization, any explaining, any "try to understand" would take that feeling away from me.

 

Is it possible for a swinger to feel "used and dirty?" I think it is.

 

Chip

 

I would feel this same way. I definitely think a swinger can feel used and dirty. Spoo and I were just discussing this a couple of days ago only in regard to singles. Different topic but in short I told him that with singles that we meet (which is usually on line) I don't like to email a little, meet for dinner and then invite them over to f***. The reason being is when we have done this is the past (early in the lifestyle) we realize they aren't someone we'd want to repeat with or be friends with so I kind of feel like the "wham Bam thank you ma'am". You know how you feel like some singles think your the poor horny house wife that isn't getting any. :rollseyes I can't explain it but it does just make me feel used when this happens with singles, so our rule now is they have to become friends way before they are ever going to get me in bed.

 

Didn't mean to go off there in another direction just wanted to touch on what Chip said about feeling used and dirty.

[singleagain 26]

Wow...Spoo, I didn't mean to hijack your thread but it seems that I have become the center of attention here...or is it my friend and I that have. In any case give me a few days to digest all the questions. I would love to address all of them but the task is daunting. Let me suggest to you all that you carefully read every post. There are posts in this thread that clearly answer most every question much better than I could. What I'm going to say next is not meant to change directions or cause further confusion but I think it is analagous to what we have been talking about.

 

I don't like to swing with Asian couples...some do.

I like to swing with black couples...some don't.

Lawyers are too legal for me...for others they aren't.

I look less for physical beauty...others look more for it.

I don't care for swinging with a couple with a bi male...some want only that.

I don't have a problem paying an escort to accompany me as my date...others do.

 

This list of what I or you desire or like could go on and on and on and on...

 

I think you get the picture. Yes I would like to find someone who would enjoy swinging with me in every facet of life. I would love to swing on down to the grocery store with her on Saturday morning. I would find it very satisfying to attend church on Sunday with her on my arm. Monday night would be just great sitting on my couch holding her watching 24. The problem has simply been finding that very elusive female that would including the word "swinging" in her vocabulary without prejudice or disdain. My "escort" has in fact accompanied me to church, concerts, sporting events, upscale restuarants and many other places and activities most without any sex at all. She likes to swing and so do I. She has to earn a living as well. And her teenage daughter has to be supported. She doesn't want to be married or in a long term relationship and is very satisfied that her select few clients take care of her needs just fine.

 

Now I know that all this is far from the original intent of this thread. So let me state it again. I agree with Spoo and all of you who think that swing clubs are not places for prostitution. And, no, I have never paid her to have sex with the male of a couple just so I could get to his wife. We swing with people who approach us. Neither of us are into bed post notching. So, if you were ever to meet us in a club or other venue you would not in a million years guess what we do for a living.

 

Tybee Swing, you asked "Very interesting. Was it just the two girls playing, or did you all four participate? What was your female friend's actual initial response, when she found out the true nature of your arrangement? What changed her mind and made her decide that she'd like to do this again (now that she's in the loop)? "

 

Yes it started out with just the two girls playing while her husband and I watched. They approached us and began to chat us up and the guys just left them to each other. I in no way pressured my friend to play or interact. Next thing I know she was "teaching" our new found acquaintance the joys of ff sex. After a couple of climaxes each we were asked to join in and we all enjoyed each other's bodies for an extended period. Later, girl-girl talk led to each of them talking about their lives outside swinging. She was put off a little at first, but somehow the attraction that had started when no one knew much about each other continued to grow. With that I will take time in the near future to answer each question in your long post. It will take a little while so be patient.

[Spoomonkey 421]

Wow...Spoo, I didn't mean to hijack your thread but it seems that I have become the center of attention here...

 

Not at all! I am glad there is someone here to take the antagonist position - if there were not, we'd probably all just be sitting around intellectually masturbating each other

 

I think you said it well - some are okay with it, some are not. To each their own. Please - keep fielding and discussing as the thread takes its own shape!

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

 

I don't like to swing with Asian couples...some do.

I like to swing with black couples...some don't.

Lawyers are too legal for me...for others they aren't.

I look less for physical beauty...others look more for it.

I don't care for swinging with a couple with a bi male...some want only that.

I don't have a problem paying an escort to accompany me as my date...others do.

 

This list of what I or you desire or like could go on and on and on and on...

 

And, no, I have never paid her to have sex with the male of a couple just so I could get to his wife. We swing with people who approach us. Neither of us are into bed post notching. So, if you were ever to meet us in a club or other venue you would not in a million years guess what we do for a living.

 

This raised some thoughts and questions so I thought I'd go ahead and throw them out there.

 

Asians, Blacks and physical beauty can all be determined immediately up front so I can choose whether or not I want to approach or be approached by a certain couple.

 

Lawyers well I see your point there and although some would think what they do is illegal their profession is not.

 

A Bi-male...well since swinging is all about sex and (I'll generalize here) I'd guess just about everyone knows this is something that needs to be brought up early in a conversation out of lifestyle courtesy so to speak and could be addressed so you can choose to play or not.

 

An Escort - do you offer the same courtesy to let a potential playmate know up front that you are with an Escort. It is, as I found from some of the club rules, not allowed and is illegal. We are also selective with who we choose to play with and some couples we won't just on the basis of how they play in the lifestyle (i.e. they take greater risks in their play - therefore potentially could expose us to those risks that we are not willing to take). A prostitute/Escort by merit of her chosen profession exposes herself to risks that we are not willing to be exposed to by playing with one.

 

Lastly you said "I have never paid her to have sex with the male of a couple just so I could get to his wife", but if you are paying her for her services (to come with you to the club) you technically are.

It sound like you use the same lady every time and seem to have a bit of a client/friendship type deal going on with her. But you still pay her to be with you which maybe not in your personal situation but over all does put her in the position of no veto rights. So someone bringing an Escort could get to play with a woman he wants whether the escort is attracted to the husband or not...it's just another day (night) of work.

[ohash01 20]

I agree with Mrs. Spoo. Unless it was straightly stated that "my lady-friend is a professional escort", that's very dishonest. I, personally, don't want J. playing with an escort. Escort in my mind = prostitute = ewww.

 

I will say that I know there are some prostitutes out there that "do it right" and are careful and clean, but why add that extra risk to the risks we already take as swingers?

 

As for legalizing it, sure...why not? I see no problem with making it legal. We can tax it just like cigarettes or alcohol...that makes sense to me too. Perhaps we'd be able to set up national health care or free college educations...and I'm all-for both of those. I'm just stating right now that I would never partake, and as long as I'm alive and kickin', J. will never partake either.

 

Frankly, I can't get wood unless I feel like the woman I am playing with is attracted to me.

 

I am a female, so it is physically impossible for me to "get wood", but I feel the same way. I want all parties involved to be attracted to one another without it being fake.

[Spoomonkey 421]

I am a female, so it is physically impossible for me to "get wood".

 

It's over rated and embarrassing in public