GFE - Prostitution In The Lifestyle, Part II

[flkeyscouple 21]

It's over rated and embarrassing in public

Yeah, but I think it would be a great time and fun to play with!!

[singleagain 26]

There are several observations I have made in life that I will address in this post. It seems like some things are the same in the swinger’s world as they are in the vanilla (I love that word) world. There is another word I use that usually puts a bad taste in people’s mouths. This word is the one that so many people have told me is just wrong. It’s the word discrimination. We all use it…we all apply it. If you say you do not discriminate then you need to rethink every decision you make. You see, its not possible to avoid discrimination if one makes decisions.

 

I choose to use the services of an escort. I pay her to act as if she is my exclusive partner in certain situations such as swinging. If I never outed her as an escort, no one would ever realize that our relationship was what it is. Let me approach it this way. Let’s say you place an add on a good contact site saying you are an attractive, sexually charged couple looking for like minded individuals. This means that you don’t want to meet unattractive people who find sex to be reserved for pro-creation only. See you have already discriminated. Now suppose you are a Caucasian couple and your simple add gets the attention of a couple like this: He is black, handsome, well built and works at the local city sewage treatment facility cleaning pumps. His wife is a fantastically beautiful red head, lovely natural 36D breasts, stands 5’9” and weighs about 130. She is an independent escort who works only in cities at least 50 miles from her home. He knows what she does and, naturally, she knows what he does. They are also swingers. Here’s where I run into what I think is hypocrisy. If they never told you where they work, you might play with them based on their physical beauty alone. If fact this couple might look so good on paper (no pictures) that you just can’t wait to see them in person so you can make a discriminating decision on whether to play with them or not. Suppose again that he stated that he was a sanitation engineer with the largest employer in the area and that she was a consultant in the bedding industry. They wouldn’t exactly be lying would they? And of course he is not paying her to accompany him to a club or on a date to meet a couple for the possibility of recreational sex. And I think that is where the rub comes in for most of the people who have posted on this thread.

 

Just as I don’t tell people up front that I suffer from psoriases (a non-contagious skin condition that I have under control), I don’t tell people what I do to earn an income which is in the mid 6 figure range. Nor do I volunteer that she is a paid escort. Why? Because she doesn’t act like one when she is with me. Truth be told, she treats me better than some women I have met in the lifestyle treat their partners and she has expressed that I give her the freedom to swing that she can get no where else. In fact, there is never a time when the green-eyed monster jumps into the middle of our play pile and complains of the pleasure either of us experiences. How many of you can say that has never happened in your situation. We do not do anything illegal at the club. No money changes hands…no offers to play for money are made to others…and she is never required to do anything she doesn’t want to do anyway. She does have the right to “veto” anyone she is not comfortable with and I think because she is much better at using her “problem detection radar” I am safer with her than I am without. Also, I turned down a number of others who would have accompanied me to swing clubs simply because they let me know up front that would consider it an opportunity to meet other single guys who might need their services. Just as most other swingers, she and I do not talk of our private lives or play with another couple or person until there is a level of familiarity established and all involved feel the need to explore each other’s private lives. And not once has anyone ever approached us and asked if either of us is an escort.

 

The risk factors involved with playing with my escort are probably no greater than they would be playing with a person you met on any given night and just couldn’t leave until you and that person had experienced a mutually satisfying climax as a result of sexual play with each other. That is an exposure that neither of us would ever consider. We never play on the first date with anyone. And we are just as selective, if not more so, that most other people we know.

 

I met my escort the same way most of you met your swing partners. By searching on the internet and talking with others who use escort services I found this lady. She came with high references from men and women who in the vanilla world would be considered “classy”. Just so you know, I didn’t do this as a last resort, but did it in concert with searching for a single female swinger the same way most of you do. In fact, my escort has introduced me to several ladies, alas, none of which have rung my bell…back to that old discrimination thing again. And being an escort does not mean that she does not have the same desires that some other single, divorced or widowed lady would be interested in. It has been my experience that escorts worry just as much about single guys and most swingers do and for the same reasons. I was very fortunate that this lady agreed to meet me in the first place.

 

Forgive me for not remembering who made the following statement: “I have to agree with Spoo and others - I believe that many couples in the Lifestyle would take offense to learning they've just had sex with a prostitute, as opposed to an actual couple like themselves. Even if the couple they've just been with is apparently "just dating" (not in a very serious relationship yet) or appears to be friends/swing partners (not for money), this is a big difference from the reality that this couple is a man and his paid escort. I know my husband and I would be very rattled by that, to say the least.” I completely understand how this person feels. I too, might feel that way with just any “prostitute.” Just like I would not pick up a prostitute on the corner I wouldn’t swing with any and everybody I meet in the lifestyle. First things first…they must be really into recreational sex without strings attached and there must be chemistry…not to mention a level of class that sets them apart. We exhibit that class wherever we go together. If I told you who her other clients are (all three of them) you would not ever doubt her classiness. We really do like each other and enjoy each other’s company in venues other than swinging. She loves nascar racing and the opera. We attend both together…no sex there. Someone on this thread said “I'm just not 100% sure how I'd feel about sex with you two if I had all of the facts.” I submit that that is a statement that most of us might make if we had all of the facts about most of our play partners.

 

Forgive the long post, but I have attempted to address what I feel is the greatest concern to all of you. I appreciate the opportunity to learn from this board and who knows, someday she may retire and we’ll escort each other through the rest of our lives dancing like no body’s watching.

[Thrax 384]

I am a female, so it is physically impossible for me to "get wood".

It's over rated and embarrassing in public

Spoomonkey

As I've said before, it's all about context.

 

Hold your towel, ma'am?

 

[tribbles 490]

What if the 'couple' were 'friends' and he just paid her way for everything? And maybe bought her nice stuff and trips?

 

It doesn't mean they don't like swinging. Doesn't mean she can't veto or he can't veto someone.

[ohash01 20]

It's over rated and embarrassing in public

 

Well - Spoo - you should just learn to control yourself a little bit better. I suppose that's unfair of me to say, since women have padded bras to hide their harden-able parts...perhaps a paid of padded underwear for you for next christmas?

 

Hold your towel, ma'am?

 

Thrax, you can hold my towel anytime. But you'd have to promise not to peek.

[meandher2go 17]

we are agreeing with singleagain

 

and we know a few prostitutes, just dont use thier services but are friends with them and know they are the most health conscience people around cause they have to be. we would worry more about swingers more than prostitutes. swingers dont do it for a living and might take it for granted. we think most swingers dont get tested as often as a prostitute does or at least the ones we know.

 

but any kind of info that has not been given in a swing setting is misleading and we understand the views of others here.

 

but just like me not telling the wife of the couple im a hairy guy, how do you suppose a prostitute is gonna tell her story. and we think, what we dont know wont hurt us. (unless its health wise)

[Spoomonkey 421]

It’s the word discrimination.

 

The definition of "discrimination": treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit.

 

Your points about color, body type and profession are all correct. But here is where I disagree: in a situation where one partner is being paid for her services - the service is to provide you (the client) a good evening - how can I be sure that I have the chance to judge her on her "individual merit"?

 

A prostitute is someone who sells fantasies. If it is within the scope of comfortable business for them, they do whatever they need to in order to help you (the client) have a good experience. So, if that means that she has to flirt with me (a person she may not otherwise be interested in) because you have expressed an interest in my wife (a person only crazy people aren't interested in ) then it is part and parcel of the package that YOU have paid for.

 

It has nothing to do with me and your lady friend.

 

So yes - I would discriminate without feeling badly about it against someone who would keep something from me that might be important to our "coupling", making it impossible to judge them on individual merit. The bottom line is, I just don't feel like I could trust her motivation. Does that make sense?

 

And because of that, I would be uncomfortable being put knowingly in that situation, as would - based on the responses - many people in the lifestyle. It isn't about her cleanliness or the nobility of her choice profession - it is about her reasons for wanting to be with me.

 

And if you think about it - haven't you, in a way, just bought yourself into my wife's pants; effectively making her a bit of a sublet prostitute herself?

 

And not once has anyone ever approached us and asked if either of us is an escort.

 

Of course not...

 

What an awkward way to start a conversation with a couple you are interested in.

 

"May I ask you if your girlfriend is bought and paid for?"

 

I would never think to ask such a question. Perhaps our expectations in the lifestyle are a little "utopic", but we do tend to think that couples are what they say they are. We do ask about marital status as this can raise a lot of good directional discussion that lets us know whether a couple would be our type, but the bottom line is, based on this thread, you have to admit most people would be uncomfortable with such a situation if they knew. If you, in good conscience, can put people into situations that they would not be comfortable with, that is a decision that - unfairly - only you can make.

[Tybee Swing 286]

There is another word I use that usually puts a bad taste in people’s mouths. This word is the one that so many people have told me is just wrong. It’s the word discrimination. We all use it…we all apply it. If you say you do not discriminate then you need to rethink every decision you make. You see, its not possible to avoid discrimination if one makes decisions.

 

When people are discriminating (choosy) about who they want to have sex with, they have every right and of course, we all do - we all should be choosy based on how we feel and what matters to us. We all have our own preferences. Some preferences are based on attraction, interest, chemistry, and other preferences are based on safety and comfort level issues. This is why honesty is so highly valued in the swing community. Of course, not everyone is going to be honest, and some will use varying degrees of deception in order to get what they want. This is why many swingers are leary, cautious, and feel the need to screen people as much as possible in order to be comfortable and to feel that they are dealing with honest people.

 

I choose to use the services of an escort.

But perhaps we don't choose to have sex with an escort, and many of the couples you're with who don't have disclosure about her trade may not choose to have sex with an escort, either. They're having sex with an escort under false pretenses, because:

I pay her to act as if she is my exclusive partner in certain situations such as swinging.

You must agree that's not playing fair?

 

If I never outed her as an escort, no one would ever realize that our relationship was what it is.

Being really good at concealing the truth doesn't make it right or more acceptable to be deceiving people.

 

Now suppose you are a Caucasian couple and your simple add gets the attention of a couple like this: He is black, handsome, well built and works at the local city sewage treatment facility cleaning pumps.

.....

Suppose again that he stated that he was a sanitation engineer with the largest employer in the area

 

Personally, we as a couple wouldn't care about this (and his use of the term "sanitation engineer" isn't a lie). We don't base our sexual choices or friendship choices on this sort of thing. We know that some other couples do...and they usually have profiles that state that they are looking only for "other very professional" couples like themselves and give other clues that they're interested in social status, title and money. They have that right. The sanitation engineer couple wouldn't be for them, and they wouldn't be interested in the "professional"-couples-only couple, either.

 

His wife is a fantastically beautiful red head, lovely natural 36D breasts, stands 5’9” and weighs about 130. She is an independent escort who works only in cities at least 50 miles from her home. He knows what she does and, naturally, she knows what he does. They are also swingers. Here’s where I run into what I think is hypocrisy. If they never told you where they work, you might play with them based on their physical beauty alone.

 

It's not like she's a bank teller, school teacher, or restauranteur who isn't telling you about her career just to be discreet and careful. She and her husband are bright enough (I'm sure) to know that some people wouldn't want to play with her for possibly a variety of reasons, including the fact that she's practicing an illegal trade and people don't want to get mixed up in that on any level. (She's not working in the desert at a legal brothel; she's traveling to cities in the vicinity of her home to practice her trade, and it's illegal in those cities.) Because she's under the radar of the law, she doesn't have to get tested. She can get paid a great deal more to turn tricks bareback. We don't know WHAT she does with her johns. If she can so easily lie to us (her potential playmates) about what she does, or she conceals what she does just to gain access to us, she most certainly can and probably will lie to us about how often she's tested, whether or not the condoms fell off or tore with 200 of her clients, whether she goes bareback for extra $$$, or anything else.

 

If we learn we've been lied to or deceived on any level by this couple, why should we trust anything this couple would tell us? I would feel this way if I learned that you and your escort friend had been pulling the wool over our eyes about your status as a couple.

 

Here’s where I run into what I think is hypocrisy. If they never told you where they work, you might play with them based on their physical beauty alone.

 

Some people do play with couples based on physical beauty alone. I agree with you - with their looks alone, they probably get more invitations than they can handle. But, the people choosing to be with them just for their looks know they're making this choice, perhaps knowing little to nothing about these people, and that's their prerogative. This isn't hypocrisy.

 

Many people will talk to you to learn about you. They'll talk to you either through your profile as in the example you gave, or at the club. They want to get to know more about you, and establish a level of trust and confidence in you. Many of us will ask if you're married, or how long you've been together, or something else related to your relationship. Why? Because this is one of the things that matters to us. We want to be with "real couples". Most of us want a connection/chemistry/attraction to occur before sex, not just eyeball appeal.

 

Personally, we've met some very physically hot couples in person who were not connections for us (we didn't go past the first "date" with them). The only reason we said "no thanks" was that there was just no chemistry or personality connection there. I've heard other people tell of similiar experiences.

 

Just as I don’t tell people up front that I suffer from psoriases (a non-contagious skin condition that I have under control), I don’t tell people what I do to earn an income which is in the mid 6 figure range. Nor do I volunteer that she is a paid escort. Why? Because she doesn’t act like one when she is with me.

 

I understand not telling people you've just met about your non-contagious condition or about your salary. It's none of their business and of no consequence to them. But the third point is concealed because you know that people would veto sex with you if they knew. Your odds of getting sex are much higher by not telling she's your escort and by her "acting as if she is your exclusive partner" (to quote you). You said that you don't volunteer the escort fact because "she doesn't act like one". That just isn't a valid argument here. Not acting like what you are just means you're good at playing a role. It doesn't address the consequences of lying to other people about it.

 

Truth be told, she treats me better than some women I have met in the lifestyle treat their partners and she has expressed that I give her the freedom to swing that she can get no where else.

....

…and she is never required to do anything she doesn’t want to do anyway. She does have the right to “veto” anyone she is not comfortable with and I think because she is much better at using her “problem detection radar” I am safer with her than I am without.

....

We really do like each other and enjoy each other’s company in venues other than swinging. She loves nascar racing and the opera. We attend both together…no sex there.

 

I have no doubt that this arrangement is great for both of you. I can see why it works for you. What I think some of us are trying to point out is not how it affects you, or the two of you together, but how it affects your potential play partners who have the wool pulled over their eyes (and how that would make us feel). If you'd said that you are open about your situation, you gracefully accept the "rejections" of those who don't want to play with the type of couple you are, and you move on to enjoy those experiences with the people who DO want to play with you knowing the facts first, I'd be the first in line to say

 

In fact, there is never a time when the green-eyed monster jumps into the middle of our play pile and complains of the pleasure either of us experiences. How many of you can say that has never happened in your situation.

 

Aside from our first full swap experience (we weren't savvy enough to have expressed or understood all of our preferences at that point, and we got kind of run over by a Mack truck), I can say that we fully share and completely enjoy our experiences with no jealousy or "weird feelings" at all. After our first false start, we quickly worked through that and moved forward. It's been fantastic for us and if anything, has brought us much closer than we could have imagined possible.

 

Also, I turned down a number of others who would have accompanied me to swing clubs simply because they let me know up front that would consider it an opportunity to meet other single guys who might need their services.

....

The risk factors involved with playing with my escort are probably no greater than they would be playing with a person you met on any given night and just couldn’t leave until you and that person had experienced a mutually satisfying climax as a result of sexual play with each other. That is an exposure that neither of us would ever consider. We never play on the first date with anyone. And we are just as selective, if not more so, that most other people we know.

....

She came with high references from men and women who in the vanilla world would be considered “classy”.

 

The measures you took in choosing her is very conscientious behavior for yourself, your safety. I appreciate all the points you make about how carefully you chose this lady, that she has few clients, she's clean and tested often, she only plays safe (as far as you know), she's choosy, etc. - all great facts that could be shared with potential playmates.

 

And not once has anyone ever approached us and asked if either of us is an escort.

 

This is, of course, because nobody expects that either of you are escorts. Nobody would ask this of you because it wouldn't occur to them. It's not common practice in swinging, as far as most couples know. I've never heard of your situation in swinging before (which is why it intrigues me to learn more from you about it).

 

Just so you know, I didn’t do this as a last resort, but did it in concert with searching for a single female swinger the same way most of you do.

 

I understand how this arrangement can be so beneficial to you for companionship, swinging, etc.

 

In fact, my escort has introduced me to several ladies, alas, none of which have rung my bell…back to that old discrimination thing again.

There's nothing wrong with being discriminating, knowing what you like, and seeking chemistry. You'll know it when you meet her. Just as in any situation with dating, sexual connections, and even with our casual friendships, we know what we like and we know who "fits" - - Providing we are granted access to truthful information about this person, not deceptions, and he or she is being his/her true self with us.

 

Forgive me for not remembering who made the following statement: “I have to agree with Spoo and others - I believe that many couples in the Lifestyle would take offense to learning they've just had sex with a prostitute, as opposed to an actual couple like themselves. Even if the couple they've just been with is apparently "just dating" (not in a very serious relationship yet) or appears to be friends/swing partners (not for money), this is a big difference from the reality that this couple is a man and his paid escort. I know my husband and I would be very rattled by that, to say the least.”

 

That was me.

I completely understand how this person feels. I too, might feel that way with just any “prostitute.” Just like I would not pick up a prostitute on the corner I wouldn’t swing with any and everybody I meet in the lifestyle.

Only you would have the privilege of making this choice, though. You're in control, and you're making decisions for us if you pass off your escort as your girlfriend, and we have sex with her. We should have the right to choose to have or not have sex with an escort for ourselves. I think this is disrespectful. We treat our playmates with honesty and respect, and we want the same consideration in return. Regardless of the fact that she doesn't look or act like a typical sex-for-money worker working in an illegal and unregulated industry, she still is.

 

Someone on this thread said “I'm just not 100% sure how I'd feel about sex with you two if I had all of the facts.” I submit that that is a statement that most of us might make if we had all of the facts about most of our play partners.

That was me, too. What I meant of course, was if I/we had all the facts that you've shared here in this thread about your escort friend. Your situation isn't typical. This is the kind of information that selective people would naturally feel they have the right to. I'm sure you realize this. You are selective...these facts about this woman were important to you. You ruled out being with other escorts who didn't measure up to the standards you expressed here for a variety of safety reasons associated with the illegal sex-for-money trade. Don't the playmates you bring into your sexual situation deserve the same?

 

Forgive the long post, but I have attempted to address what I feel is the greatest concern to all of you. I appreciate the opportunity to learn from this board

 

I appreciate your long post, it's very educational! Thanks for taking the time to shed some light on something we wouldn't normally be privy to.

 

....and who knows, someday she may retire and we’ll escort each other through the rest of our lives dancing like no body’s watching.

That is very interesting in itself! If this woman weren't an escort, you could see yourself being really serious about her. Hmmmm! Keep us posted.

[singleagain 26]

Thank you spoomonkey ad tybeeswing for such great posts. I have to say I agree with everything you say in general terms. Specifically I want to address three things tybeeswing said in her last post.

 

"Being really good at concealing the truth doesn't make it right or more acceptable to be deceiving people..."

 

That is very true. I agree with you that lying is wrong. Deception is wrong as well. The point I was trying to make here is, however, that one never tells all he knows unless that would mean that he is either trying to deceive or if his failure to reveal would mean that others may be harmed. In that light, I hope and trust that every swinger I play with will maintain high ethical standards in regards to taking care to harm none.

 

"(and his use of the term "sanitation engineer" isn't a lie)"

 

Oh, it would be if he never went to engineering school and was simply a day laborer (as I was alluding, I thought) cleaning the machinery that moved the s..t where its supposed to go.

 

"If this woman weren't an escort, you could see yourself being really serious about her. Hmmmm! Keep us posted."

 

I like her a lot and she seems to like me. I hope its not just her "business" to convince me of that. Our conversations take on a really serious level of revelation to each other and I have visited her "off the clock" many times since I met her. So...who knows...maybe we just might have a different kind of relationship in the future.

 

Let me close my part of this really great discussion by saying a few things about me that may reveal something you may not have known before. I am a practicing Christian. I not only trust Christ as my personal savior, but I am active in my local church as well. I have discovered that loving God and loving others the way He tells us to do is so rewarding, not only to me but to all the people I associate with as well. There are many threads on this board that address such matters and I am not trying to change the direction of this one. But I do firmly believe that no matter what lifestyle one chooses treating others with respect is paramount. I will seriously consider all the things you guys have said and from that determine how I will move forward in the lifestyle. Thanks so much for your valued input.

[Tybee Swing 286]

Thank you spoomonkey ad tybeeswing for such great posts.

 

You're welcome! I think it must have been the longest post I've ever written. Sorry for the length, but there was so much to reply to!

 

Even though I obviously haven't agreed with your method of having your escort act as if she were your girlfriend in order for you to gain access to other people sexually, I have a strong feeling that at heart, you are a man of integrity. I can see this in how you ended your last post, too. I'm glad that you're considering the feelings of others in the Lifestyle. With all that's wrong with the world, whenever we have a chance to demonstrate honesty and integrity through our own actions and dealings with people - even as swingers in the lifestyle - someone's faith in humanity can be restored, a little bit. And we can respect ourselves.

 

We are all only as good as our word.

 

But I do firmly believe that no matter what lifestyle one chooses treating others with respect is paramount.

 

I truly believe this, too. See, we probably have a lot in common!

[sereneiders 263]

singleagain

 

I have the impression that something in this thread touches some fiber on you. From what you're saying, it seems pretty obvious that you relationship with this scort is far from being "typical", thus, becoming an exception of the question adressed in the first place. So I am asking myself, why are you compelled to bring your story here to defend a point of view based on your exceptional case?

 

It's not that I deem your point of view wrong, nor that I critisize your participation in the discussion. I am fine with that. But it still calls my attention.

 

I wonder if there could be something else going on here: that you may be developing feelings for this exceptional escort, and this thread could made you face some colliding emotions or thoughts you may have, regarding the fact that you meet her as an escort and you still keep playing the escort/customer roles even when for you, or for both of you, the relationship may be going beyond the escort/customer "typical" roles.

 

As if you were needing to "legitimate" this relationship inside the swingers community once they bring a subjet able to threaten your right to stand behind this relationship and keep making it grow. See what I mean?

 

The problem is, not all the escorts and prostitutes behaves the same way, not all of them have the same values, not all of them even understands (nor needs to understand) the values shared by this community, and because of all of this, most of the times they participate in a "swinging" activity imposes some eventual threat for the "legit" swingers couples. Since "legit" couples needs to avoid drama and preserve their relationships, we expect the other parties to have about the same expectations and about the same risks we have. For example, a playmate missbehavior may lead to a problem for us, our missbehavior may lead to a problem for our playmates, so the need to avoid problems makes us aware of the missbehaviors, but if for a playmate a missbehavior is something he/she's used to because of his/her profession, we're entitled to doubt about the way he/she valuates his/her behavior.

 

However, in your very case, it seems to me that your partner valuates you personally and/or as a customer (I cannot evaluate this), making she aware of the "missbehavior" problem inside the lifestyle as to make her a "safer enough" playmate for others.

 

In fact, you could see this relationship as something more than a mere commercial transaction, and this alone should be enough to make you feel it as a "legit" relationship (and not only FOR the rest of the lifestylers). For example, a guy could be married (or in an stable relationship) with an escort, and be ok about what she does to have an income. Should they swing, would this lady deserve to be treated as "the typical prostitute" for the sake of this thread discussion? I believe she shouldn't.

 

For a deception to happen, you should be aware of it. If you're deceiving yourself unconciously, no one should blame on you if he/she becomes aware of the deception. A lot of marriages (notoriously in the vanilla world) have relationships in where they deceive themselves: if the wife cheats on the guy, he may be deceiving herself just because he didn't notice the cheat, nor the facts leading the wife to cheat on him. Should this coulple be swingers who play in a close circle as to enjoy unprotected sex in a controlled environment, this wife behavior would be deceiving for the rest of the group as well. Should they blame on the husband if they find out she cheats on him?

 

So, I believe you have to make up your mind about this relationship you have with this escort. If you honestly believe there is more going on than the commercial transaction (a transaction that, ultimatelly and from your own words, doesn't seems to differ too much from the one you could find inside some marriage where the guy supports his wife and her kids from a previous marriage), then you wouldn't deceive anyone if introducing her as your "couple" (she'd be the one deceiving them if she, honestly, doesn't see you the same way). To be fair, WHEN it matters (because you know it is a concern), you should tell your couple is also an escort... for their customers, not being you a customer.

 

So the question is.... so far, are you a customer or not? And I believe your need to discuss your situation in this thread could be disclussing your own problem to answer this question.

 

What do you think?

[singleagain 26]

tybeeswing, we probably do have a lot in common. The greatest freedom in the world is the freedom to be ones own self without apology to anyone. Being open and upfront allows us to do that.

 

While I believe what I do in the lifestyle is perfectly ok, I also know that my church friends would have the same feelings for me that many swingers would have if either side discovered the lady on my arm was a paid professional escort. I am faced everyday with the necessity to be honest and ethical while at the same time to be comfortable in my own skin, so to speak.

 

The thing this thread has exposed to me and hopefully to others as well is this: in an imperfect world, its particularly hard to be completely open with everyone about everything. In short, what may be perfectly OK for some will be offensive to others. As a Christian I am to offend no one...at best a very hard thing to accomplish. Our opinions about others and what they choose to do is biased by our own belief system. The standards by which all of us should conduct ourselves is not always so straight forward. If this were not the case there would be no arguments, no fights, no divorce, no green eyed monster creating enormous conflicts. In short, we could all "just get along" together. And that, my friend, would make for a very dull existence, wouldn't it?

 

I believe sincerely that our creator wants us to enjoy life. He means for us to have life partners but I cannot believe he restricts sexual activity for procreation alone. He made it feel too good to do for that purpose only. Good, clean sex shared with great friends is just as much fun (if not more so) as any other activity people can share.

 

If swinging is all about my own pleasure at others expense then I want no part of it. That's why it must be an activity shared among people of like minds. It is sincerely not my intention to deceive anyone and yet I find that any action I take will always affect some in a way they do feel deceived.

 

I guess all of us may have some skeletons in our closet, some beliefs others don't share and some desires that do not click with others. Swinging is an adult activity that should remain among adults and it is my considered opinion that there will always be a risk involved of some kind. But then so is any other activity in which we partake. If my "escort" and I were to meet you in an environ other than this one, we would appear to be happy and content, appreciative of each other and others and great fun to be with in any venue. I trust that you and yours, who ever you may be are too.

 

Serinaders...you make some very good points...

[Tybee Swing 286]

Hi singleagain,

 

Something you just said made me curious...can I ask another question? I know I've had a lot of them.

 

It is sincerely not my intention to deceive anyone and yet I find that any action I take will always affect some in a way they do feel deceived.

 

Really? Why? I understand (of course) that when it comes to church folk, our children, and many others who need not be any part of what we do in our private sex lives, less is more and there is no purpose in disclosing our deeply personal, sexual issues with parties such as these.

 

But, when it comes to people within the Lifestyle, especially the ones we may be having sex with, why will any action you take make people feel deceived?

 

I guess all of us may have some skeletons in our closet, some beliefs others don't share and some desires that do not clik with others. Swinging is an adult activity that should remain among adults and it is my considered opinion that there will always be a risk involved of some kind. But then so is any other activity in which we partake.

 

 

If my "escort" and I were to meet you in an enviorn other than this one, we would appear to be happy and content, appreciative of each other and others and great fun to be with in any venu.

 

I have no doubt about that!

[sereneiders 263]

I'll drift a little bit here, if you indulge me.

 

All of this reminds me of this guy, a psychiatrist who's also a theatre actor, director and writter, who likes to trace analogies between psycology and the stage. He says something much like the following:

 

We're mere players of a piece. Each one of us have his/her own script, we repeat it over and over. From time to time, what we do, what we say, following our own script, meets what someone else does and say by following his/her own script, in such a way that it seems to make sense for some viewer (even ourselves), providing the illusion that we're relating ourselves. If both scripts correlates, making sense, for long enough, we say we have a relationship with someone... even when both parties are just reading and repeating their own scripts.

 

This is a thrilling, very provoking analogy for me.

 

In one hand, I can correlate (myself) with the "we repeat ourselves over and over". We learn our own ways to protect ourselves, developing behavioral patterns we attempt to apply and reuse in every new situation we face, we stick to those patterns for as long as they're usefull and we feel confortable enough with them, and we get used to those patterns to the point that they provide "facilitated ways" we follow unconciously, in an attempt to make the world around us stick to our own ways, even when it becomes impossible to achieve. A lot of our suffering comes from this, most of our obsessions comes from this, even fetishes comes from sticking to some image or sensation that once gave us pleasure, and we reinforce our hability to squeeze more pleasure from this while disregarding other ways to get pleasure. Ultimatelly, we grow when something prevent us from being able to apply our well known patterns, forcing us to try some new approach.

 

This applies here. We're swingers, we have a pretty usefull set of rules allowing us to get the pleasure we pursuit while protecting ourselves. Concepts like deception and the need to avoid it has to do with the way we like the world around us to stick to our own behavioral patterns. We also threasure other things like love and sexual freedom, and the prostitution history resembles a lot of what we attempt to avoid: from the hypocrecy of having "good" women (mothers, sisters, daughters and wifes) who aren't entitled to be lustfull and owe their own sexuality and those "bad" ones (the whores) who fulfill the lust the men are entitled to enjoy, to the inherent deceiving ways coming from this hypocrecy, since the "bad" women aren't entitled to develop feelings nor to be loved.

 

Most women, even inside the lifestyle, when attempting to regain the control for her own sexuality, still needs to do it separating her own image from the whore public image, as to ensure they still deserve to be loved. Hence, allowing a protitute to share their sexuality imposes a threat for them, the risk of being perceived the same way, as someone who doesn't deserve love. And I am not talking about the cold hearted thinking of it, but about those behavioral patterns, about the sciript each women follows, an script with the minimal changes required as to entitle them to enjoy their sexuality while still allowing them to be part of our society as a "good" women.

 

Singleagain's particular case is provoking because he's showing us a professional who also seems to be someone deserving love... even when everithing else paradigmatically tells us she doesn't. If we're not up to play with a couple like Singleagain and his escort, it isn't because of the risk of deception, but because it would prevent us to apply our patterns, to repeat ourselves. Because it makes us face other horizonts.

 

It seems to me that being swingers doesn't necesarily makes us less hypocrital, and here I mean, the "glitch" in our behavioral patterns, those morals we learn from kids, comming from our culture, that we made part of our patterns as to socially "behave well enough", like "good" boys and girls, by saying what's politically right (or avoiding to challenge what's politically right, just to fit), even when by swinging we're not socially "behaving so well" and we're not seen as "good" as we KNOW we are. The pattern makes us fit by pointing our finger to the "politically wrong" ones as to divert the attention from us, which is the source for the discrimination: we're "good" not because of our worth, but because we're able to find out someone worst, "less good" than ourselves, to be compared against.

 

We dislike to play with prostitutes because of the deception, indeed. But because of the deception about ourselves. We may attempt to put prostitutes on trial, but the fact is, by allowing prostitutes to play with us, we're putting ourselves on trial, and this is what we hate.

 

In the other hand, from what this guy says, if we look at our relationships as the illusions comming from the way our scripts interacts, Singleagain relationship isn't necesarily "less ilussory" than our relationship with our spouses. It is true, he's with an escort, he may be paying for an illusion, but as he keep doing it with the same escort, moreover if we consider her as someone who deserves love, and if she consider she deserve love, and if she perceive the way Singlegain appreciates her, this relationship becomes as "honest" as the next, even more when they're aware of the illusion as an illusion, when for most of us, married guys, we dislike to even ponder our relationship as an illusion. This collides big time with the whole romantic paradigm we've grown with, from what we was taught and to the silver screen.

 

And, what was a marriage along history, but the exchange of a womb as a resource, by other economical resources? Even today a marriage carries all the trading implications from the eldest times: a change of last name, a ring, the joining of the respective families belongings, someone supports the other and the developing family as a duty, and sex becomes also a marriage duty: the exchange of money for sex. All of this coated by a pink layer of paint since the romanticism.

 

As we break with most of the paradigms of how a marriage is supposed to behave by means of swinging, we jeopardize the entire romantic paradigm (which doesn't means we're less loving, nor less beloving people). We deprive the building from some of it grounds because it allows us to enjoy swinging, and we need to be skillfull enough to hold the entire building in balance over a pin head... and the whole "prostitution" subject threates this pin head healthy.

 

Could we admit we're all whores? That we all need money to live, we all need to improve our wellfare, we all crave for pleasure, we all are lustfull, and the only difference is that we portrait ourselves as the "politically right" guys while the "official" whores are portrayed BY US as the "politically wrong" ones, just because they make us face that... we all need money to live, we all need to improve our wellfare, we all crave for pleasure, and we all are lustfull.

[singleagain 26]

tybeeswing asked: "But, when it comes to people within the Lifestyle, especially the ones we may be having sex with, why will any action you take make people feel deceived?

 

Sometimes in my ramblings I don't come across clearly. For that shortcoming I can only offer apologies and attempt to explain. I was speaking generally, not specifically when I said "yet I find that any action I take will always affect some in a way they do feel deceived." What I mean by that is, generally speaking, I can never satisfy everyone because it is difficult to find two people who are absolutely on the same page.

 

I have a friend who was an avowed homo-sexual. His lifestyle offended many people and was exactly what many others liked about him. He made a decision to discontinue all homo-sexual activity and got married and has kids. Now many of the people who admired and agreed with him are offended and many who were previously offended are now openly supportive of him. His one great frustration in life is an inate inability to please everyone. I suppose that most everyone has felt this kind of frustration in some segment of their existence, don't you?

 

I have a dog. I like him. But when he bites me he offends me. I guess somehow I must have offended him which caused him to react in that offensive way. He is my "best friend", yet and still somehow I find ways to offend him which is never my intention.

 

I know in the lifestyle that not everyone swings the same way. So sometimes, I get offended and sometimes they get offended. It is never the intention on either part, yet it does happen.

 

The simple result of someone finding out something about someone else that they find offensive is often considered deceptive. And in the same vein, deception is always offensive. So, any given action either you or I may take, may or may not be offensive to any particular person. Hopefully all this makes sense.

[Tybee Swing 286]

That made perfect sense to me, singleagain. I agree with you, we can't please everyone, so why even try? We can just respect the differences, be true to ourselves, stand by what we believe in, and let the chips fall where they may.

[Mr. Truelove 81]

Singleagain

 

I'm catching this thread late it would appear, but I couldn't help to chime in as I feel very strongly about this topic.

 

It's obvious from this thread that many people here would not want to swing with an escort, I am going to make a generalization that most everyone wouldn't want to either. Yet you continue to deceive them. It is not very christian like which you claim to practice.

 

I've read your counters to these concerns but what I don't understand is how little you can care for the people you play with. Are they pieces of meat to you? I have no doubt in my mind that an individual that truly cared for other people would make it known that they would be playing with an escort even without being asked.

 

You said, "But I do firmly believe that no matter what lifestyle one chooses treating others with respect is paramount."

 

That should include respecting their wishes. You aren't reflecting that with your actions so far. I hope that you change this aspect of yourself, and give the rest of us the respect that most (or at least me) would love to return.

[sereneiders 263]

Mr. Truelove,

 

It also called my attention the amount of energy Singleagain put on this thread. If he were the way you're portraying him, he wouldn't even care to argue, and less to disclose here his "deceiptfull" activity.

 

My gusts tells me he may be having his own conflicts about this. From the way he speaks about his "escort", he may be seeking for approval for his relationship from the people whose oppinion he cares about: the people he meets at the club, represented by this forum community.

 

I've made a long post where I approach the hypocrecy, being myself one of those who wouldn't play with prostitutes, even when I would need such a long discussion with someone like Singleagain before giving they a try (so, I included myself as an hypocrit here). And I believe we protect ourselves by means of stepping over Sincleagan toes, even when we're depriving him from any chance to stand upon this relationship that seems so ood just because the lady is an escort.

 

Let him talk, please.

[Mr. Truelove 81]

By all means I value his opinion. And I agree it was great to read posts he took the time to write.

 

If I gave the impression I was trying to tell him to be quiet, then that was a mistake. However, I do think he has been deceptive in this case. If you are still unclear I can show examples in his posts. And I still stand by my post that he shouldn't be withholding the information that he is playing with an escort as his "other".

 

It's pretty obvious from the responses here that it's something that people wouldn't expect to happen, wouldn't think to ask, and wouldn't want to be involved in. He should respect that.

[singleagain 26]

Deception: Deception is the covert manipulation of perception to alter thoughts, feeling, or beliefs.

 

It is not my intent to ever deceive anyone. When my "escort" and I go to a club we are not on a covert mission to manipulate any person's perception. We simply go there to have a good time. Sometimes that good time is having a drink, a good convesation with like minded people and observing the fun others are having. Other times we engage in sexual play between just ourselves and in-frequently we are asked to join with others in their play time. In conversation with others many times the subject of how each of us earns our living will come up. Not once have we ever lied about either of our professions. I cannot recall even one instance where we have been turned down solely on the basis that she is an escort. Several times other couples, after learning what she does, have been insistent that we should go to a room and commence playing immediately. Once we did. Most of the time we are much more selective about the people we play with and we will wait till we are more comfortable before making a decision.

 

Now things might be different if I pre-determined to lie about the circumstances of our relationship. Then I truly would be trying to deceive others.

 

For all of those who have taken an interest in this thread started by spoomonkey, ask yourself this question: How open have I been in conversations about my private life? Is there something I don't want others to know about me and my partner that I am willing to hide at any cost? Would I be embarressed if someone found out the complete truth after I had answered a question with an ommission or a half-truth?

 

Human nature is what it is. It will never change and most of us are not brave enough to come clean on everything. I once asked a gentleman if he had ever had a sexually transmitted disease. He said no. Through other sources I knew without doubt that he was lying. I did not challenge him, but suddenly my partner and I developed simultaneous head aches and excused ourselves. Which of us was the greater deceiver?

 

Mr. Truelove, I would never attempt to deceive you. If I were to meet you at your favorite club, however, how would I even know who you are? Have you appeared in court and requested a legal name change or were your parents also named Truelove? It is my honest opinion that the entire swinging community continually engages in deception in an attempt to remain anonomous at the very least. Please don't think I would shun you without reason, but if you met us without knowing that I was the poster in this thread and you desired to play with us, we would turn you down. And be sure, if I were ever to visit a club in Ft. Wayne I would surely ask every male I talked to if he were Mr. Truelove. Oh, it would not be your looks or your sexual prowress I would reject. It simply would be your attitude. I may never have the opportunity to meet the other more gentlemanly and lady like people who have participated in this discussion but their manner of discussion would never be something that would turn my interest in other directions.

 

No apology is needed and none is expected for the way in which you judged my intentions.

[Mr. Truelove 81]

In any case, for the ones who have asked how I met her, we have been forthcoming. But, as I suspect most swingers practice, we have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

 

I'll use this tidbit as an example of what I call deception. You agreed in another post that the majority of swingers would have reservations about playing with a couple that included a paid escort. Here:

 

"While I believe what I do in the lifestyle is perfectly ok, I also know that my church friends would have the same feelings for me that many swingers would have if either side discovered the lady on my arm was a paid professional escort. "

 

and

I believe that many couples in the Lifestyle would take offense to learning they've just had sex with a prostitute, as opposed to an actual couple like themselves."

 

So knowing that "most" swingers would have issues with it. You still keep a don't ask, don't tell, policy. Do you truly expect people to include the "Is she a paid escort?" into the conversation when meeting couples? I think this alone could be considered deception, and at the very least you should be more forthcoming about this issue.

 

This is an example of not being forthcoming about it...

 

Just as I don’t tell people up front that I suffer from psoriasis (a non-contagious skin condition that I have under control), I don’t tell people what I do to earn an income which is in the mid 6 figure range. Nor do I volunteer that she is a paid escort. Why? Because she doesn’t act like one when she is with me. "

 

So I think the difference in my opinion to yours is that you think as long as you don't actually straightforward lie to someone, then you are being honest. I think that if you can anticipate that someone will not like the arrangement, yet you let it continue anyway, that you are being deceptive.

 

Is that not an accurate assessment of the situation?

 

I know that so many quotes will make it look like I am trying to pick your posts apart. But I really am not intending to do so. Rather, I am trying to relay the feel I get from your postings about where I think you are being rather deceptive even if you are not actually "lying".

[clutch 28]

Prostitution (aka the world's oldest profession) has been around since Eve (or at least one of her daughters--real or metaphorical). It's not going anywhere. Swinging, I'm guessing, has been around just about as long.

 

I don't think legalizing it is going to make any difference regarding swinging (or anything else for that matter). If a swinging couple actually wanted to hire a prostitute, no one's stopping them.

 

My personal experience with prostitutes (2), years and years ago, has been dismal.

 

There is no love, no feeling, no lust (at least on the prostitute's part). To me it was more like masturbating using another person, which, to me, was a real turn off.

 

I am not anti-prostitutes, here. It just does nothing to float my boat.

 

To me, prostitution is raw, unflavored gruel, while swinging is a king's banquet, rich with color, feelings, love, desire, and satisfaction.

[sereneiders 263]

I know no few women in the lifestyle who actually lies about her age, even couples who lies about their ages, for example, in ads or chat rooms. They do it in order to improve their chances to meet other people that otherwise could not want to meet them if they knew their real age. And they do it because they know that, once meeting these people, no one will care about the age and they can seduce them anyway.

 

Aren't they deceiptive? Does this deception deserve to hang them by their neck at the club entrance to teach a lesson to the rest of the swingers community? And now, seriously, what's that making some deception more severe than other, when no harm has been done?

 

We've meet a lot of courples at the club, and I am pretty sure that there are couples claiming to be married people when they're not (in fact, we say we're married for the sake of simplification, even when we're not, but we're living togheter since around 15 years by now... so, I guess we're a deceptive couple). The fact is, it isn't my business to know wheter they're married or not, wheter they have a good marriage or not, and even wheter they're married because of an economical interest that wouldn't differ too much from the customer/escort scenario. All I care is to have fun and to avoid harming ourselves and others in the process. We take the measures we need to feel someone is a safer playmate, while some people wouldn't play with someone at the club, just because they need to "prescreen" people as to feel safer enough.

 

So, we're lustfull and lazy, we want it to happen, and we want it now. Should we blame on others for our lack of ability to prescreen someone fast enough? Wouldn't we indulge some deceptions (like the age one, like the brunnete inking her hair as a blonde, the sylicone aided sticky boobs, or the viagra aided dick)? If so... what happens to US able to be less indulgent with other deceptions?

 

Of course, it isn't the same the guy hiring the prostitute in the corner to test the lifestyle waters, than someone who swung as a couple before and hire the same escort in a regular basis to be part of the game. The former guys hardly would be able to behave the way we expect a couple to do, while with the seconds we could hardly tell the difference if they doesn't tell us.

 

So, what makes this deception so severe?

 

It could be a male ego fact, if we seens this ad bringing OUR wife to the club and LEND it to some other guy who's suppose to LEND us HIS wife... when in fact he's not lending us anything belonging to him, but a mere cheap toy who doesn't deseve better than our wives.

 

It could be the female ego part (as I said before), since our wives are "good" girls prettending to be "bad" ones for a little while, being the only difference between the "good" and the "bad" ones the money exchange, and that the "good" ones deserve better than the "bad" ones.

 

It isn't about the way this guy and/or his scort deceive us, but about how our activities can be so easily pegged with the ones from a prostitute, and our own need to preserve our self image, which ultimatelly means, to avoid deceiving ourselves.

[acheron823 15]

In my case, I have seen prostitution in the swinger clubs already, on a limited basis. I believe legalization would flood swing clubs with prostitutes and destroy the atmosphere/scene for the rest of us.

[Tybee Swing 286]

It could be the female ego part (as I said before), since our wives are "good" girls prettending to be "bad" ones for a little while, being the only difference between the "good" and the "bad" ones the money exchange, and that the "good" ones deserve better than the "bad" ones.

 

Or, maybe it's simply the reasons that women have already shared in this thread (risks associated with unregulated and illegal sex workers, dishonesty, and others). Why not accept what we say at face value? Women can speak for themselves. The truth is seldom so complicated and convoluted. The simplest path is usually the one that leads to the correct answer.

[Spoomonkey 421]

The truth is seldom so complicated and convoluted. The simplest path is usually the one that leads to the correct answer.

 

Dito

 

It could also be as simple as saying that our perceptions of prostitution - fair or not - would make us uncomfortable playing with one...

[singleagain 26]

Spoomonkey says: "It could also be as simple as saying that our perceptions of prostitution - fair or not - would make us uncomfortable playing with one..."

 

This is a position I can respect. And of course its the position one should always take when deciding who to play with. Swinging should certainly make no one uncomfortable.

 

My escort and I have made a decision. I will no longer pay her for sexual favors. She enjoys swinging as much as I do and actually gets into it more than I. We will continue to see each other and go to swing clubs together but now she will be with me simply because of the attraction we feel for each other. Her words to me were that she had wanted us to be a couple for a long time. Will she discontinue her activities as an escort. That is her call, not mine. I would no more insist that she give up her income than I would insist that she have sex with someone at a swing club just so I could have sex with his wife.

 

With that said, spoo's observation is still the same. He would still be uncomfortable with her because of her profession...and that's an honest position to take.

[Chip_n_Muffy 16]

This has been the most civilized discussion of a potentially touchy subject that I have ever seen on the internet. This thread speaks well for the members of this board.

[sereneiders 263]

My escort and I have made a decision. I will no longer pay her for sexual favors. She enjoys swinging as much as I do and actually gets into it more than I. We will continue to see each other and go to swing clubs together but now she will be with me simply because of the attraction we feel for each other. Her words to me were that she had wanted us to be a couple for a long time. Will she discontinue her activities as an escort. That is her call, not mine. I would no more insist that she give up her income than I would insist that she have sex with someone at a swing club just so I could have sex with his wife.

 

This sounds great!

 

It seems this news comes after this thread started, and if so, I wonder how much of this discussion had to do with this.

 

In any case, congratulations for you two! We wouldn't have any problem to play with you two (which is something pretty easy to say for me, being 20k miles away for you).

[sereneiders 263]

Dito

 

It could also be as simple as saying that our perceptions of prostitution - fair or not - would make us uncomfortable playing with one...

 

This is a way to put this that I endorse 100%.

[sereneiders 263]

In my case, I have seen prostitution in the swinger clubs already, on a limited basis. I believe legalization would flood swing clubs with prostitutes and destroy the atmosphere/scene for the rest of us.

 

This is grounded in some fact, or it's just an impression you have?

 

Here, prostitution isn't illegal, from time to time a prostitute tries luck in a club without success, moreover having better places where to make business, so I challenge this statement.

[cassies 50]

This thread is the best discussion I have read not just on Swingersboard, but on the internet.

 

For my part I would happily play with a couple where one of them was a paid escort as long as that person genuinely wanted to play with me. And I think that would be phenomenally flattering, someone who has sex professionally, chooses you as a partner of desire.

 

However, the caveats are that I am a theoretical swinger (happily married to a doesn't think she will be a swinger, but willing to go to clubs to enjoy the atmosphere), and on topic, how can one know if someone who is being paid to be there genuinely wants to be? I imagine it is not that difficult, but then again... I am imagining.

 

Anyhow, my thanks to Spoo, Singleagain, Sereneiders and Tybee as well as the others for such thoughtful and compassionate discussion.

[Spoomonkey 421]

how can one know if someone who is being paid to be there genuinely wants to be?

 

Bob

 

I think that is really the fulcrum of the question - and as a balance point, it isn't easy (or even really possible) to find? Does the money corrupt the motivation or just our perception of it? For me, there would always be that question in the back of my mind.

 

But - just as some people are willing to play with whoever they bump into in a dark room - or some folks are only willing to play with people that they first develop poly relationships with (these are extreme examples) everyone is going to have comfort zones that shift based solely on their own personalities, backgrounds and moral sense.

 

As for this being a good thread - it is just really tough to get nasty with SingleAgain. He's just a darn good cat

[Tybee Swing 286]

My escort and I have made a decision. I will no longer pay her for sexual favors. She enjoys swinging as much as I do and actually gets into it more than I. We will continue to see each other and go to swing clubs together but now she will be with me simply because of the attraction we feel for each other. Her words to me were that she had wanted us to be a couple for a long time.

 

This is fascinating, to say the least! Please keep us posted. It's turning into the plot of "Pretty Woman", and we want to know the ending (I do, at least). Good luck to you!