He wants to swing...I don't want to...and it's killing me!!!

Babysteps · February 16, 2007

Ok, so yes I'm back. I can't recall if I've ever revealed much about my current circumstances so here goes, and I'll try to be brief and clear.

I've been involved with my boyfriend for about 2 1/2 yrs. We are both early 40's. He knows me and knows me WELL! HE has an interest in swinging, ( he has experienced the lifestyle in the past, the very distant past). I on the other hand have never swung. He approached me about this for the first time about 9 months ago, ( when I first registered here, lol). My INITIAL reaction? DEVASTATION! I was practically comatose for well over a week! Now, don't get me wrong, I am VERY openminded sexually, but this suggestion was just a little over the top for me. I came here to this site trying to learn, trying to understand, DESPERATE for both!

I don't judge, and I CAN understand many aspects of this lifestyle, there are many positives, but there ARE negative aspects as well. He KNOWS my feelings towards the 2 of us becoming involved in the lifestyle, ( knowing me like he does I'm actually very surprised that he even approached me about it, but I'm glad that he shared his thoughts with me). I love this man TO DEATH, we're very connected on many different levels.

WHY AM I SO OPPOSED TO GIVING THIS A TRY?? In a nutshell I'll TRY to express my thoughts and feelings. I AM WAAAAAAAAAY TOO EMOTIONAL, too much of a "romantic", so to speak. When he makes love to me, I get soooo HOT, as in "temperature" hot, in my pussy, ( sorry to be vulgar, but I'm just saying it like it is), and soooo WET! I can't feel the significant "change in temperature", but HE CAN, he says it feels like somebody has spilled a hot hot cup of coffee in his lap. My body responds to his actions this way because of what's going on in my head, and also what I'm feeling in my HEART for him. Put me in a situation where a DIFFERENT man is doing the VERY same things to me.......and my body WOULD NOT respond in the same way. Because there just wouldn't be the same things going on for me in my head and heart. ( God, I hope that made sense!?) And don't get me wrong, I DO understand the difference between "fucking" and "making love". There's a time and place for both.

This is getting a little wordy, but please persist with me, this is helping me a little, just making this post . Now I KNOW how much he loves me, and theres no doubt in my mind how much he enjoys our activities in bed, ( well, maybe that's not quite true, I guess in fact I've come to question JUST how much he enjoys me in bed, because of this swinging issue). Like I said before, I'm VERY open minded, I'll try just about anything, as long as it's with HIM, I trust him, and I know that he's only interested in seeing MY enjoyment! I can't believe that he could stomach seeing me do the things that I do with HIM, with another man. And as for me, IF we were ever to do this, ( swing ), I'd have to SERIOUSLY squash down alot of feelings and emotion, to see him play with another woman, even though in my head I'd know it was just a "fuck".

I can't wrap my mind around the "relationship" aspect of swinging. That's relationship as in the one that 2 couples have together. I'D FEEL LIKE JUST ANOTHER PUSSY, yaaaa, a piece of meat, to be USED.

He makes references to it, ( swinging), occasionally, not often. The last time he did, we were in bed, I was SERIOUSLY wrapped up in what he was doing to me, he had his hand on my pussy, ( sorry again, lol), and he made some sort of reference to possibly "SHARING", I can't remember the exact sentence, or context, but there was no doubt as to what he was implying. I SHOULD HAVE stopped things right there, approached him about it, in my head I was thinking......"Is he out of his f**king mind, bringing THAT up, at a time like this!?!!!!????) But like I said, I was seriously enjoying myself at that moment, and chose to let it go, (yaaa, no self discipline here! lol).

Ok, wrapping this up now! IT IS KILLING ME THAT HE HAS THIS WANT/NEED THAT I CAN'T HELP HIM FULFILL! I'M DYING INSIDE. I want soooo badly to open my mind to the potential pleasure involved, the new experience, ( I'm very curious by nature, and usually WELCOME new experiences). He has made me question a large part of myself, my sexuallity. He has made me feel very SEXUALLY SQUARE.....and BELIEVE ME, I'M FAR FAR FROM THAT!! I'm actually very close to saying, "Ok, I want to try it, I'm all over it, I HAVE TO DO THIS!".....just so I could say, been there. done that, didn't like it, so can we now please put this behind us?? OR, I could say, "I can't, but if you ever have the opportunity, go for it!"

I could keep going, I have more, ( if ya can believe that!), this can be a very difficult issue to discuss with others, your all I have, so let me hear your thoughts!

havefuninsun · February 16, 2007

Do you think your biggest fear is jealousy?

Babysteps · February 16, 2007

Do you think your biggest fear is jealousy?

Sure, I suppose that's probably a part of it, but definately NOT my biggest fear, this is a multi facceted issue for me, it can't be summed up with just that 1 word.

2TexasTornados · February 16, 2007

Sounds to me like you're definitely not ready to try it out, and that's OK!

You need to tell HIM all this stuff you've just typed out. What guy wouldn't be flattered to know that you get literally feverish at his touch, and worry no other man could do that for you? If it "devastates" you to think about sharing him or yourself with anyone but each other, you're nowhere near taking the leap. Because if you do it anyway, while you're still feeling so torn about it, you're going to experience all sorts of negative emotions. Rejection, jealousy, loss, etc. And no orgasm - his or yours - is going to be worth that.

Take your time, talk to him, and try to feel at peace with your thoughts and decisions on the subject. It's your body and your heart - you gotta do what YOU gotta do.

Bad Sandy · February 16, 2007

I have to say that your post sounds EXACTLY like me about 8 months ago! LOL Now we are happy swingers. I think the fact that you are already sexually adventurous, and are even here in this forum, suggests you might want to give this a try but are worried about your reaction.

First, take a deep breath. You don't have to decide today. I had every anxiety you describe and then some. We have been taught to be offended if our significant other notices another woman, but that's perfectly natural. (WE notice too don't we! LOL) We are created to be sexually attracted to each other!

Also, I finally realized that there is a big difference between chemistry and love. This took some experience to grasp. I have had playmates where the chemistry was off the charts but it STILL isn't as good as it is with my husband. We know each other inside and out. He is a part of my soul. We connect in a way that makes sex together on an entirely different level than it could ever be with a playmate. I think that alone was the biggest suprise to me. I could have sex with a guy that was completely my type, and be incredibly turned on by it, but it STILL wasn't the same. It was fantastic, just not the same. Figuring out that it is the same way for my husband was an "aha" moment. Playmates are fun, but playing has made us even MORE aware of how special we are to each other.

I know that may not make much sense. And others, far more experienced than I, can give their view as well. Take your time and don't rush into anything. When you're ready to give it a whirl wait until you find the right couple. The best to you!

Sandy

February 16, 2007

If it wasn't for the "girlfriend" reference, I'd have thought (wished?) my wife typed this.

ohash01 · February 16, 2007

Definately don't go flying into this just because you want to be able to say "see? I hated it!". That could seriously damage your relationship.

Sit down and talk to him. I promise it doesn't have anything to do with you not satisfying him enough. Swinging is another aspect of your relationship TOGETHER. He isn't going to go and find someone else just for him. He brought it up because he wants to be honest and open and tell you what he's been feeling and thinking.

You should do the same. Sit down. Tell him exactly WHY this is so disturbing to you. Ask him what his previous experiences were like...maybe him giving you some insider info will help. Please talk to him. I think you'll feel better that you did.

seacupl · February 16, 2007

Sounds like swinging is not for you.........yet

Don't do it if you're not ready

intuition897 · February 16, 2007

I haven't read any of the other posts yet, because I want to keep thing clear in my head and not forget to mention everything I'm thinking.

First of all, welcome back to the board. Glad to see you! You really don't need to convince us that you're open-minded. Being open-minded does NOT mean being permissive or necessarily agreeing with what we do. It just means that you are giving an idea its day in court. If you can't agree with it, you just can't, and belittling yourself for not doing a cannonball into a pool you have no interest swimming in just doesn't make sense. I'll mention more about that in a minute...

He approached me about this for the first time about 9 months ago, ( when I first registered here, lol). My INITIAL reaction? DEVASTATION! I was practically comatose for well over a week! Now, don't get me wrong, I am VERY openminded sexually, but this suggestion was just a little over the top for me. I came here to this site trying to learn, trying to understand, DESPERATE for both!

Hoo boy, does THIS sound familiar! You sound like me. I was pretty hurt and very confused that he would ask this of me, but then I discovered that he wasn't actually asking anything of me; he was offering me a pretty unique and selfless gift.

I don't judge, and I CAN understand many aspects of this lifestyle, there are many positives, but there ARE negative aspects as well.

It might help us to better understand where you're coming from if you can tell us what you feel the negative aspects are. Most of us you're hearing from think swinging rocks. For example, my idea of swinging's biggest drawback is that no one out there understands it, and it's really difficult to find friends who don't get pissed off at you when you can't sympathize over their husband's wandering eye. We just don't 'get' jealousy anymore, why people make such a big deal of it. Now to me, that's a drawback. I'm on here as much as I am because I've found a little pool of like-minded people, and it's too bad we all live so far apart.

He KNOWS my feelings towards the 2 of us becoming involved in the lifestyle, ( knowing me like he does I'm actually very surprised that he even approached me about it, but I'm glad that he shared his thoughts with me). I love this man TO DEATH, we're very connected on many different levels.

It's probably because he thinks so much of you that he mentioned it. He wants an honest relationship with you, and this is an expression of his love and trust in you. Seems backwards, but it's true. Men who are successful in the lifestyle are lacking something alright: a big ego. It's a bit like they're saying, "My wife/girlfriend is too much woman than any one man has a right to keep all to himself. She's too awesome to be kept caged up. I'd rather see her in her natural habitat than keep in captivity." Your man is a purist. He sees you in a way you don't yet see yourself: as a woman who commands sexual attention and respect, who leaves a trail of spent men in her wake. He sees you as a goddess and he just doesn't feel that he has a right to manage your sexuality for you. He doesn't even want to. He wants you to take it back and use it. If you really are unhappy to be given back the freedom to do as you please, you just need to explain to him exactly why.

WHY AM I SO OPPOSED TO GIVING THIS A TRY?? In a nutshell I'll TRY to express my thoughts and feelings. I AM WAAAAAAAAAY TOO EMOTIONAL, too much of a "romantic", so to speak. When he makes love to me, I get soooo HOT, as in "temperature" hot, in my pussy, ( sorry to be vulgar, but I'm just saying it like it is), and soooo WET! I can't feel the significant "change in temperature", but HE CAN, he says it feels like somebody has spilled a hot hot cup of coffee in his lap. My body responds to his actions this way because of what's going on in my head, and also what I'm feeling in my HEART for him. Put me in a situation where a DIFFERENT man is doing the VERY same things to me.......and my body WOULD NOT respond in the same way. Because there just wouldn't be the same things going on for me in my head and heart. ( God, I hope that made sense!?) And don't get me wrong, I DO understand the difference between "fucking" and "making love". There's a time and place for both.

It sounds a bit like you know how to separate love and sex, but you just don't want to. And that's cool. When we were actively swinging, we noticed the same thing. It just isn't possible for us to "make love" to our swing partner like we do with one another because there's just nothing there! It's just fun friction. But the fun of non-emotional sex with other partners isn't enough for me to want to get into the lifestyle. I love knowing that Mr. intuition is out there being his sexually voracious self. He's just too good to keep all to myself! So I get the satisfaction of knowing he's an awesome lover, is able to please other women and leaves them asking me "Does he have a brother?" One of the things I love about the lifestyle is knowing that any other woman can "do her worst" in an attempt to steal Mr. intuition from me. Her most potent weapon (so she thinks) is her sexuality. But instead of ensnaring Mr. intuition's heart, he just says "Thank ye ma'am."...and so do I. There's just no way for sex to screw up our marriage anymore, and that's a pretty good feeling.

Now I KNOW how much he loves me, and theres no doubt in my mind how much he enjoys our activities in bed, ( well, maybe that's not quite true, I guess in fact I've come to question JUST how much he enjoys me in bed, because of this swinging issue).

This isn't boredom or dissatisfaction with you. It's a bit like playing with a Lego set. You guys have played with the Lego set you've got for a while now, and you're running out of new things to build. But the creative juices are flowing and he's got a few ideas about new configurations...if only he had an add-on set to add to the Lego set you've got already...Or more hands, mouths, etc. Wow, can you imagine that? Just think of all the possibilities! It's like taking something that 2D and making it 3D! It's not that he doesn't have fun with just you (after all, you two have the coolest Lego set going). He's just thinking that this amplifies the fun you two have together. But if it's just not fun for you, then that defeats the purpose.

Like I said before, I'm VERY open minded, I'll try just about anything, as long as it's with HIM, I trust him, and I know that he's only interested in seeing MY enjoyment! I can't believe that he could stomach seeing me do the things that I do with HIM, with another man. And as for me, IF we were ever to do this, ( swing ), I'd have to SERIOUSLY squash down alot of feelings and emotion, to see him play with another woman, even though in my head I'd know it was just a "fuck".

Okay, do NOT do move forward if you feel this way. His whole point is to see you enjoying yourself and feeling more liberated. He doesn't want you to martyr yourself for his sake. Trust me, the sex-with-other-women thing is just not as important to him as you're imagining it is. If he's anything like Mr. intuition, it's just a nice plus. If he knew that you would be hurt by seeing him with another woman, I would sincerely hope he would never do that. He can stomach seeing you with another man because what he sees is you...not the other man. I love to see my husband doing the same things to another woman that he does with me, because it almost seems like an out-of-body experience. I'm standing back watching, knowing the sensations this other woman is feeling because he's made me feel them too. But it's fascinating because she reacts completely differently than the way I do. And she looks different than me. It puts his sexuality into context so to speak. Apply person A to person B you get one reaction. Apply person A to person C and you get another reaction. Same action, different reaction. See what I mean? Probably not. Anyway, the bottom line is, it's a turn-on for me. Afterward, the other woman is all out of breath and saying, "My God, how do you keep up with him??" And I just get to elbow her in the ribs and say, "Told ya he was good!"

I can't wrap my mind around the "relationship" aspect of swinging. That's relationship as in the one that 2 couples have together. I'D FEEL LIKE JUST ANOTHER PUSSY, yaaaa, a piece of meat, to be USED.

I don't mind it. Not at all. I guess the difference is that I don't expect anyone to wine and dine me. You don't have to butter me up; I want sex too, so why don't we all just cut to the chase? I realize that my involvement, personally, between a couple has nothing to do with me and everything to do with enhancing their own relationship. It's not that they don't care about me, or respect my feelings or needs. It just means that they expect that I'm not going to rely on them to validate me as a person. The fact that they open their bedroom door to other people does not reflect at all on the other people. It just means that they find you attractive...and you fit their fantasy very nicely. Actually it kinda gives me a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that I can help another couple out this way. They've only got so many hands, mouths, pussies and dicks. Sure, I'll lend them a hand! Literally!

Here's a shocker: to other happy swingers, you already ARE just another pussy! They just haven't had sex with you yet. And by that, I mean that you are part of the rest of the world outside of their relationship with one another. There's inside, and then there's outside. You're on the outside of their relationship and always will be. That guy's not being cold. He's just giving you all that he has to offer you, which is respect, courtesy, kindness...and honesty. He has no love to give you, so if you need to feel loved to enjoy sex, swinging may not be much fun for you. You're better off recognizing that now and saving yourself from making a big mistake.

He makes references to it, ( swinging), occasionally, not often. The last time he did, we were in bed, I was SERIOUSLY wrapped up in what he was doing to me, he had his hand on my pussy, ( sorry again, lol), and he made some sort of reference to possibly "SHARING", I can't remember the exact sentence, or context, but there was no doubt as to what he was implying. I SHOULD HAVE stopped things right there, approached him about it, in my head I was thinking......"Is he out of his f**king mind, bringing THAT up, at a time like this!?!!!!????) But like I said, I was seriously enjoying myself at that moment, and chose to let it go, (yaaa, no self discipline here! lol).

No big deal. Just let him know that right now you're not quite "getting" the lifestyle and you just can't get turned on by that. You appreciate that he's trying to share with you and be honest with you about his fantasies, but this is one that you just can't get turned on by right now. Maybe not ever.

Ok, wrapping this up now! IT IS KILLING ME THAT HE HAS THIS WANT/NEED THAT I CAN'T HELP HIM FULFILL! I'M DYING INSIDE. I want soooo badly to open my mind to the potential pleasure involved, the new experience, ( I'm very curious by nature, and usually WELCOME new experiences). He has made me question a large part of myself, my sexuallity. He has made me feel very SEXUALLY SQUARE.....and BELIEVE ME, I'M FAR FAR FROM THAT!! I'm actually very close to saying, "Ok, I want to try it, I'm all over it, I HAVE TO DO THIS!".....just so I could say, been there. done that, didn't like it, so can we now please put this behind us?? OR, I could say, "I can't, but if you ever have the opportunity, go for it!"

I could keep going, I have more, ( if ya can believe that!), this can be a very difficult issue to discuss with others, your all I have, so let me hear your thoughts!

Although it might be tempting to do that cannonball/bellyflop thing I was talking about earlier, you'll regret it. If you value you relationship, if you value your sanity, do not force this. It's supposed to be fun. If it's not, you're doing it wrong. I personally believe that this is something that is within reach for just about anyone, and it's just a matter of clearly understanding it. I'd let your boyfriend know that you're having a really difficult time understanding how this is supposed to be a turn-on. Ask him to explain it to you, exactly how and what turns him on. Talk your faces off. Ask him to start off with very tame fantasies. Don't jump right into swinging! Try flirting with the waiter or the sales associate at the electronics store. Try dressing up sexy and go to the mall or something. Have him let you know when he notices someone eyeing you up. It's just fun! It's just play! Don't assume the worst; just trust him and...play!

intuition897 · February 16, 2007

I have to say that your post sounds EXACTLY like me about 8 months ago! LOL Now we are happy swingers. I think the fact that you are already sexually adventurous, and are even here in this forum, suggests you might want to give this a try but are worried about your reaction.

First, take a deep breath. You don't have to decide today. I had every anxiety you describe and then some. We have been taught to be offended if our significant other notices another woman, but that's perfectly natural. (WE notice too don't we! LOL) We are created to be sexually attracted to each other!

Also, I finally realized that there is a big difference between chemistry and love. This took some experience to grasp. I have had playmates where the chemistry was off the charts but it STILL isn't as good as it is with my husband. We know each other inside and out. He is a part of my soul. We connect in a way that makes sex together on an entirely different level than it could ever be with a playmate. I think that alone was the biggest suprise to me. I could have sex with a guy that was completely my type, and be incredibly turned on by it, but it STILL wasn't the same. It was fantastic, just not the same. Figuring out that it is the same way for my husband was an "aha" moment. Playmates are fun, but playing has made us even MORE aware of how special we are to each other.

I know that may not make much sense. And others, far more experienced than I, can give their view as well. Take your time and don't rush into anything. When you're ready to give it a whirl wait until you find the right couple. The best to you!

Sandy

Sandy, you just said it all! That's it exactly!

Babysteps · February 17, 2007

GOD! Thanks for ALL......and I mean ALL of your responses, I have so much more that I want to say, but its almost 3AM, and I need sleep! So I'll get back to you all, very soon I hope!

Your helping me alot!

Babysteps · February 17, 2007

Sounds to me like you're definitely not ready to try it out, and that's OK!

You need to tell HIM all this stuff you've just typed out. What guy wouldn't be flattered to know that you get literally feverish at his touch, and worry no other man could do that for you? If it "devastates" you to think about sharing him or yourself with anyone but each other, you're nowhere near taking the leap. Because if you do it anyway, while you're still feeling so torn about it, you're going to experience all sorts of negative emotions. Rejection, jealousy, loss, etc. And no orgasm - his or yours - is going to be worth that.

Take your time, talk to him, and try to feel at peace with your thoughts and decisions on the subject. It's your body and your heart - you gotta do what YOU gotta do.

Ok, I have a little bit of time so I'm going to take these one at a time,( no pun intended, lol).

I KNOW that I need to talk to him, I KNOW he'll be receptive to my thoughts, and the feelings behind them. IT'S JUST SUCH A HUGE ISSUE! An issue where a compromise that makes BOTH happy seems almost impossible. And to be quite honest with you, ( I might as well!), prior to this issue arising, I could talk to him about ANYTHING, and now, there seems to be a "distance" there, some sort of a "separation or barrier" that previously wasn't there, ( this is for me, I don't believe this holds true for him). This barrier BY NO MEANS affects my love for him, or how much I love him, but it HAS added a new dimension to our relationship, and how I relate to him.

Tex, your advice was to, "try to feel at peace with my thoughts and decisions".......IT'S TOUGH! Tough knowing that one way or another, SOMEBODY isn't going to be happy, and the truth is, I DON'T WANT THAT SOMEBODY TO BE HIM. There are a few different angles to this for me. #1, I'm trying to understand the basic appeal and allure of the lifestyle, and #2, ( possibly the larger ), I'm very annoyed and frustrated with myself for having such a difficult time relating and understanding the concepts involved in the lifestyle. I don't run from problems, face them head on, AND I'M HAVING SUCH A HARD TIME WITH THIS ONE! YOU COULD PROBABLY EVEN SAY I'VE ALMOST BECOME CONSUMED BY IT! And the truth is, the emotional turmoil that I'm experiencing is EXHAUSTING. Exhausting on many levels. I OVERTHINK things, latch on and won't let go until I've found an acceptable solution. I need to SOMEHOW put things a bit into perspective.

I need to make one other thing clear. I know HIM well also. I know that if I tell him that after MUCH research, thought, and soulsearching that this is a "no go" for me, he'll accept it and understand, but it will still tear me up inside knowing that he had a want/need that I kept him from.

Babysteps · February 17, 2007

I could have sex with a guy that was completely my type, and be incredibly turned on by it, but it STILL wasn't the same. It was fantastic, just not the same.

Thank you also Sandy, I appreciate your input, but in reference to you post, ( and I don't exactly know how to put this ), BUT, there's part of me saying, "I don't want to waste my time OR energy having yes, fantastic sex, but its not going to be the mind blowing, EXTRAORDINARY, out of this world sex that I have with my Honey", JUST for the sake of having a NEW experience with a DIFFERENT partner. Why settle for something that is "close", when you can have he WHOLE ENCHILLADA!??

????

Babysteps · February 17, 2007

If it wasn't for the "girlfriend" reference, I'd have thought (wished?) my wife typed this.

Last one for today.

Fringe? Can you expand on what you just said? Are you saying that your in a similar situation? YOU have the desire, and SHE is trying to understand/accept it?

What are HER reservations? As far as MY reservations go, I have only scratched the surface......more to come though, thanks for responding!

JustAskJulie · February 17, 2007

Swinging is definately not for everyone and I don't know if it's for you or not, but I will say that the two reasons you have given so far for trying it are two of the worst reasons.

1. To say that you've done it.

2. To make him happy.

The only upside to either of these would be IF (and that's a big IF) you found on your first try that you actually really enjoyed it. If you try swinging for either of the above reasons you are more likely to damage your relationship more than it sounds like it already has been.

You said you feel like there is a rift between you since this has been brought up, that you don't feel you can talk to him about everything as you once could. Is this because you feel that he is so dead set on the idea of swinging that nothing you say will change his mind? Have you ever expressed to him your concerns regarding swinging or have you just given him a "I'll think about it" type answer and not really reasponded other time? Until you really sit him down and talk to him openly about how you feel you can not expect his reactions or thoughts to change. If swinging is not for you then you do not need to even attempt it.

Yes, relationships are about comprimise and that does have to come from both parties, that does not mean that one party just gives in and does what the other party wants solely because they don't want to see the other party unhappy. Sometimes we have to be unhappy. But if you put your happiness aside just to make him happy and do something you do not want / are not ready to do, you will end up resenting him. Yes, the same could go for him and he could resent you for not wanting to partake in this, but at the same time you said that he has had experience in the past (long ago), if he's gone this long without it then I'd say the chances are he can live without it.

sereneiders · February 17, 2007

There are certain things in your porst that called my attention.

1) You said this could be a NEED for him. IF this is true, then it would support your doubts about your hability to satisfy him in bed. Perhaps you're seeing this as a NEED because of your own insecurities. In any case, wheter it is a need or you felt it is a need for him, you'd be facing issues insid your relationship that you'd have to face, before even thinking of swinging or not.

2) I understand the way you feel, and that you understand the difference between love and plain sex. Moreover, I believe the problem is, while you understand there is a difference, such a difference doesn't seems to apply to you: you enjoy "making love", and once compared to what you get from "making love", the "plain sex" loses the atraction. This is more than fine, and you'd stick to your feelings. You shouldn't force yourself to change this just to attempt to swing. You'de ba "taking one for the team", and this doesn't seems to be a good idea.

3) I am wondering what happens to you when regarding to sexual fantasies. This can be put as the following question: ¿Do you believe it is valid to fantasize of some other people but your spouse? ¿Do you believe it is valid to do so while you're making love?

For some people (and I guess, even for some swingers), even when the answer for the first question were "yes", the answer for the second may be "no". When you said how you felt wen your BF told you about "sharing" while making love to you, it seemed to me that for you the anser for the second question would be "no". If i am right here, I believe that (whether you ever swing or not) its worth to talk with your BF about this.

Babysteps · February 18, 2007

I have been VERY anxiuos to respond to YOUR reply Intuition......

I discovered that he wasn't actually asking anything of me; he was offering me a pretty unique and selfless gift.

Here's a shocker: to other happy swingers, you already ARE just another pussy! They just haven't had sex with you yet. And by that, I mean that you are part of the rest of the world outside of their relationship with one another. There's inside, and then there's outside. You're on the outside of their relationship and always will be. That guy's not being cold. He's just giving you all that he has to offer you, which is respect, courtesy, kindness...and honesty. He has no love to give you, so if you need to feel loved to enjoy sex, swinging may not be much fun for you. You're better off recognizing that now and saving yourself from making a big mistake.

Possibly......I'll consider this outlook......BUT.....in "offering ME a pretty unique and selfless gift".....HE in turn also is getting the very same. One must ask, "what are his motivations"? Is it MY pleasure and/or enjoyment?......OR HIS "through the back door", so to speak?? Or is it I get something, HE gets something, for the benefit of our relationship?

It might help us to better understand where you're coming from if you can tell us what you feel the negative aspects are.

I'll get back to you on this one.

It's probably because he thinks so much of you that he mentioned it. He wants an honest relationship with you, and this is an expression of his love and trust in you. Seems backwards, but it's true. Men who are successful in the lifestyle are lacking something alright: a big ego. It's a bit like they're saying, "My wife/girlfriend is too much woman than any one man has a right to keep all to himself. She's too awesome to be kept caged up. I'd rather see her in her natural habitat than keep in captivity." Your man is a purist. He sees you in a way you don't yet see yourself: as a woman who commands sexual attention and respect, who leaves a trail of spent men in her wake. He sees you as a goddess and he just doesn't feel that he has a right to manage your sexuality for you. He doesn't even want to. He wants you to take it back and use it. If you really are unhappy to be given back the freedom to do as you please, you just need to explain to him exactly why.

Intuition, I REALLY REALLY appreciate your thoughts......BUT.....your perspective indicates that for alot of men involved in the lifestyle its, "all about HER"......HER satisfaction, HER desires, HER wants and needs. AGAIN, Like he's not getting something in return for this "gift". TRUE GIVING, giving that has an UNselfish motivation is given WITHOUT expecting anything in return. I MIGHT be able to more easily consider this view....IF HE weren't also on the receiving end too.....( Ohhhh God.......I HOPE your getting my point, I tried my best on that one).....lol.

Okay, do NOT do move forward if you feel this way. His whole point is to see you enjoying yourself and feeling more liberated. He doesn't want you to martyr yourself for his sake. Trust me, the sex-with-other-women thing is just not as important to him as you're imagining it is. If he's anything like Mr. intuition, it's just a nice plus. If he knew that you would be hurt by seeing him with another woman, I would sincerely hope he would never do that

.

I KNOW, like, THERE'S NO DOUBT IN MY MIND, that if I approached him and said......"I just can't, not ready, not at this time", that he'll COMPLETELY accept that, and respect my thoughts and feelings. He's NOT an insensitive, selfish ass, HE LOVES ME, and would NEVER try to push me into this or manipulate me. I DON'T fear for the relationship if the swinging doesn't work out. I'm confident in it. And I'm NOT the type to participate in something that I KNOW is not going to be good for me......just to see him happy, ( like alot of women do). The expression, "Easier to open a somewhat closed mind than CLOSE an open one", comes to mind. I'm frustrated with myself. Too many tangents to consider.

I love to see my husband doing the same things to another woman that he does with me, because it almost seems like an out-of-body experience. I'm standing back watching, knowing the sensations this other woman is feeling because he's made me feel them too. But it's fascinating because she reacts completely differently than the way I do. And she looks different than me. It puts his sexuality into context so to speak.

Intuition, you have a knack for putting all of this in such a, "SEE , EVERYBODY'S HAPPY" context. I think that you might "glamourize" and "idealize" this somewhat. I think that if alot of swingers were to be honest with themselves......they'd admit that if it weren't for their swinging activities, one or both of them would be involved in an affair, and I DON'T think that makes a very good statement about the relationship. I'm NOT criticizing.....but maybe looking at aspects that SOME might refuse to explore.

Here's a shocker: to other happy swingers, you already ARE just another pussy! They just haven't had sex with you yet. And by that, I mean that you are part of the rest of the world outside of their relationship with one another. There's inside, and then there's outside. You're on the outside of their relationship and always will be. That guy's not being cold. He's just giving you all that he has to offer you, which is respect, courtesy, kindness...and honesty. He has no love to give you, so if you need to feel loved to enjoy sex, swinging may not be much fun for you. You're better off recognizing that now and saving yourself from making a big mistake.

I can appreciate this statement......and I KNOW that love has no part of it......and I certainly wouldn't engage in swinging looking for love, but this entire statement screamed COLD to me......I don't want to be in a cold bed.......but I WOULD like to be in a bed where there's SOME consideration for there being a WOMAN......a PERSON......attached to that pussy.

Intuition, I hope that I haven't offended you in ANY way. I woke up this morning with a little bit more of a "jaded" opinion than I usually have about it. I'm actually tired of this consuming so much of my thoughts during the day, I need to have a talk with him, put this to rest for a bit. The sanity thing.....lol. And the negatives?? Here's just some of my thoughts on that.

I have read alot of posts here, one in particular comes to mind. There was this one gal asking for advice......SHE HAD TAN LINES ( LMFAO ), and she was so concerned about how she would "look" while playing, ( still laughing!)....so here I am......reading this.......and thinking to myself......"IS SHE F**KING KIDDING???......SHE'S ABOUT TO F**K.....A NEAR PERFECT STRANGER......AND SHE'S WORRIED ABOUT HER TAN LINES????!!!!!"......pretty shallow. See, I AM shy, ( until I really get to know someone).....and I'm early 40's.....my tits sag.....and yes I have a tummy.....I think alot of swingers are a little too wrapped up in the looks thing. And I HAVE read all of the posts that say ( more or less), that swingers come in all shapes and sizes, you just need to be comfortable and confident in yourself, its the confidence that matters. My Honey says he LOVES my body type, but that's HIM.....HE LOVES ME......another man???......well......you know what I'm saying here.

I also have a hard time with the "cold" factor, like I previously mentioned. The attitude of, "look honey......your here for OUR purposes NOT yours.....get used to it".

I have a hard time with the risk of STD's and the potential precautions that one must take. Like if I'm going to f**k, I WANT TO F**K.....I would totally insist on condom for the act, but otherwise the necessity of any other type of barrier or limit is a BIG turn off. And I have read all the posts on THAT too, and my honest opinion is that any swinger who DID at one time or another become "sexually UNhealthy" as a result of an encounter would probably never admit it. I have yet to read the post that says, "Yaaaa, I got pubic lice, and HERE'S HOW I GOT RID OF IT".....get it??

This is all that I have for now, this took me a long time, I hope you understand some of my concerns. I must go now, but I STILL DO have more.

gatorvol64 · February 18, 2007

Intuition, I REALLY REALLY appreciate your thoughts......BUT.....your perspective indicates that for alot of men involved in the lifestyle its, "all about HER"......HER satisfaction, HER desires, HER wants and needs. AGAIN, Like he's not getting something in return for this "gift". TRUE GIVING, giving that has an UNselfish motivation is given WITHOUT expecting anything in return. I MIGHT be able to more easily consider this view....IF HE weren't also on the receiving end too.....( Ohhhh God.......I HOPE your getting my point, I tried my best on that one).....lol.

Well, you'll find me agreeing with Intuition on this. For us, it was really about a gift from him. But, yes, he did get something in return. He got to see and know the enjoyment he had given me. It may help to know that all he intended for us was MFM. Sure, it took me a while to understand why he wanted this but then I did realize that he was wanting to give me something. It was I who wanted to take things further. It was I who had to convince him I would be comfortable with being with a single women or a couple. The initial fantasy was his and he didn't expect any sort of reciprocation. But I sure as hell wanted to give it. So, we talked and he finally got that I felt the same as he had. And we haven't looked back (regardless of the situation we have been facing with our child). I simply LOVE seeing him be all that he is without restrictions involved. Do we have some boundaries we each won't cross? Yes, definitely. But they are very few and the list got reduced to those few over time. You know, mostly things like safe sex. It isn't on our list to respect each other and not do something we think the other would have a problem with if faced with a situation we haven't ever encountered. That is just a given. That is something we do in ALL things, not just swinging.

You have every right to your opinions and feelings. But, what you understood as Intuition's perspective about a lot of men in the lifestyle is fairly accurate. The thing is, it really boils down to mutual "true giving" for most on this board. I'm not sure I can explain to you how my husband and I got the this place. You absolutely have to have the ability to communicate your thoughts and feelings with each other but, I imagine that we each reached that ability in somewhat different ways.

Intuition, you have a knack for putting all of this in such a, "SEE , EVERYBODY'S HAPPY" context. I think that you might "glamourize" and "idealize" this somewhat. I think that if alot of swingers were to be honest with themselves......they'd admit that if it weren't for their swinging activities, one or both of them would be involved in an affair, and I DON'T think that makes a very good statement about the relationship. I'm NOT criticizing.....but maybe looking at aspects that SOME might refuse to explore.

God, I almost forgot. And I very much wanted to address this. NO, we would NOT be involved in an affair if we didn't swing! If, for any reason, just one of us wanted to stop, it is over. No more. We love each other and do not need anyone else for that or sex or anything. Our relationship is not lacking at all! I can not stress this strongly enough.

I wish you luck. Not in swinging so much, but in coming to an understanding of what you think he means by suggesting this and what he actually does mean and expect from it. Talk to him...that is the only way you will know. Try to let go of your preconceived understanding of his motives and just listen. You could be right, but just think...what if you are wrong? Talking openly and honestly with him can only improve your relationship, no matter how good it already is.

Vol

Babysteps · February 18, 2007

You have every right to your opinions and feelings. But, what you understood as Intuition's perspective about a lot of men in the lifestyle is fairly accurate.

I just want to be sure that I understood this statement. So what your saying is that alot of men in the lifestyle DO give this gift to their partners, with what THEY'RE going to get in return......a sexual experience with a new partner, in mind, PRIMARILY in mind???

And some of the views that I expressed AREN'T necessarily my STEADFAST opinions, but maybe just a new way to look at the lifestyle, probably a very UNpopular way of looking at it. The way the 2 of you became involved in the lifestyle sounds close to ideal. It was an evolution......YOU enjoyed it so much that you wanted HIM to experience the same. WONDERFUL! True giving. I commend you! All I was trying to say was this, on the surface many men want to make it appear that, "It's all about YOU baby".....but it's actually THEIR "end" that might be the primary focus. Sorry, but I belive that I'm not doing a very good job of expressing my thoughts.

intuition897 · February 18, 2007

Just a few things in response...

Intuition, you have a knack for putting all of this in such a, "SEE , EVERYBODY'S HAPPY" context. I think that you might "glamourize" and "idealize" this somewhat. I think that if alot of swingers were to be honest with themselves......they'd admit that if it weren't for their swinging activities, one or both of them would be involved in an affair, and I DON'T think that makes a very good statement about the relationship. I'm NOT criticizing.....but maybe looking at aspects that SOME might refuse to explore.

While I do tend to idealize things (just my INFP personality), I must strongly disagree with your feeling that we would cheat. The whole point is that Mr. intuition and I no longer allow sex to call the shots. That tail isn't wagging this dog anymore. Cheating is just not an option for us. And that is the hard cold truth. If you do a search on this board and look up "cheating" or "cheater", you're bound to see a multitude of posts that scream loud and clear exactly how swingers view cheating. You'll probably find my posts on that topic on nearly every thread since 2004. No, if Mr. intuition ever did divorce (although I just can't imagine why we would) I know for a FACT that it would not be because of sex or cheating. It doesn't have that power anymore, because we took it back.

I can appreciate this statement......and I KNOW that love has no part of it......and I certainly wouldn't engage in swinging looking for love, but this entire statement screamed COLD to me......I don't want to be in a cold bed.......but I WOULD like to be in a bed where there's SOME consideration for there being a WOMAN......a PERSON......attached to that pussy.
.....
I also have a hard time with the "cold" factor, like I previously mentioned. The attitude of, "look honey......your here for OUR purposes NOT yours.....get used to it".

This is your imagined scenario. The reality I've experienced is not like that at all. I am respected and appreciated by my playmates, or they don't get to play with me. Period. It just means that they respect the emotional boundaries of my relationship with my husband and likewise, we respect theirs. It's not coldness; it's simply maintaining a respectful distance. We respect marriage (and other long-term relationships) very deeply, and hold them sacred. That means our own marriage, and those of others...even if the other couple can't respect it themselves. We have refused to play with couples whom we suspect are having marital difficulties or are swinging for the wrong reasons. We don't want to play any part in the demise of a relationship that we know from experience has the potential for such greatness. But we can't do much beyond that because we recognize that it is THEIR relationship. Their joys and problems are theirs alone and none of our business. Likewise, we expect the same courtesy. Now I don't consider that "cold" in the least, but then again, that's just a matter of opinion, isn't it?

Intuition, I hope that I haven't offended you in ANY way. I woke up this morning with a little bit more of a "jaded" opinion than I usually have about it. I'm actually tired of this consuming so much of my thoughts during the day, I need to have a talk with him, put this to rest for a bit. The sanity thing.....lol.

Meh, think nothing of it. Just haven't had your coffee yet. Been there. It takes a lot more than someone's honest opinion to personally offend me. I understand how emotionally draining this must be for you. Believe me I do, as we've been there before. You mentioned that you're feeling a reluctance to talk to him; have you told him this? Don't cave in to fear of communication! If you notice that something is difficult, aim for that first. Chew away at the difficult, scary things. It can be a little dangerous, yes, because when you ask the questions, you get the answers...and sometimes the truth of the matter is disappointing. I would say maybe you should give him a "not right now" answer. Don't beat yourself up over this! It's not worth it. I know you want him to be happy, but you'll BOTH be happier if you say no, than if you say yes and do something you'll both regret.

And the negatives?? Here's just some of my thoughts on that.

I have read alot of posts here, one in particular comes to mind. There was this one gal asking for advice......SHE HAD TAN LINES ( LMFAO ), and she was so concerned about how she would "look" while playing, ( still laughing!)....so here I am......reading this.......and thinking to myself......"IS SHE F**KING KIDDING???......SHE'S ABOUT TO F**K.....A NEAR PERFECT STRANGER......AND SHE'S WORRIED ABOUT HER TAN LINES????!!!!!"......pretty shallow. See, I AM shy, ( until I really get to know someone).....and I'm early 40's.....my tits sag.....and yes I have a tummy.....I think alot of swingers are a little too wrapped up in the looks thing. And I HAVE read all of the posts that say ( more or less), that swingers come in all shapes and sizes, you just need to be comfortable and confident in yourself, its the confidence that matters. My Honey says he LOVES my body type, but that's HIM.....HE LOVES ME......another man???......well......you know what I'm saying here.

I won't lie. We're not active swingers right now partly because we're just not comfortable in our skin the way we are. We've gained weight and aren't feeling very fit or healthy. This isn't so much about vanity as it is about self-appreciation. I'm sure we could find playmates who still found us physically attractive...if we had confidence in our physical bodies. But we don't. Therefore, we're likely to be a lot less attractive to others out there. I think it's more about acheiving a healthy self-image and being realistic. It's one thing for your husband to tell you that you are the sexiest woman on the planet...because he loves you and that's how he sees you. It's quite another to hear appreciative comments from a complete stranger. Those comments are maybe more realistic because they're not passed through the "love filter". I just think that attractiveness DOES have a lot to do with how we view ourselves.

I have a hard time with the risk of STD's and the potential precautions that one must take. Like if I'm going to f**k, I WANT TO F**K.....I would totally insist on condom for the act, but otherwise the necessity of any other type of barrier or limit is a BIG turn off. And I have read all the posts on THAT too, and my honest opinion is that any swinger who DID at one time or another become "sexually UNhealthy" as a result of an encounter would probably never admit it. I have yet to read the post that says, "Yaaaa, I got pubic lice, and HERE'S HOW I GOT RID OF IT".....get it??

The worst thing we "caught" in 5 years of swinging was a yeast infection. And just about anything can cause that. I really feel that being selective about who we have sex with has a big impact on our risk factor. I think you're probably a lot more likely to get an STD from Sally Sleazemore and Bob Fucksalot at the local watering hole, considering they're out sneaking around on their spouses, and being just as bad as they can be, and they don't give a damn about who they have sex with, as long as they get what they want. They bury their heads in the sand, saying "STDs can't happen to me". They can't even be honest with themselves; how honest do you suppose they'd be with their sex partners? Honesty is NOT in their vocabulary. From what we've seen, swingers aren't having sex with other people "by accident". They are usually very well-informed about sex practices and risks, they have their rules, and feel a sense of responsibility in making sure they and their playmates follow said rules. It's a conscious decision. Now that's not to say that we aren't spontaneous, but I think you just get practiced at reading people. The couples involved are monogamous other than the decided-upon sexual activities they engage in with other otherwise-monogamous couples like themselves. There is no hidden sexual activity. You see it over and over again in ads: "D&D free, and want to keep it that way!"

Yes there are risks, but we consider the level of risk to be within acceptable limits...certainly better than trying our hand at the standard single's scene! But that's a decision every couple - every person - must make for themselves.

gatorvol64 · February 18, 2007

I just want to be sure that I understood this statement. So what your saying is that alot of men in the lifestyle DO give this gift to their partners, with what THEY'RE going to get in return......a sexual experience with a new partner, in mind, PRIMARILY in mind???

And some of the views that I expressed AREN'T necessarily my STEADFAST opinions, but maybe just a new way to look at the lifestyle, probably a very UNpopular way of looking at it. The way the 2 of you became involved in the lifestyle sounds close to ideal. It was an evolution......YOU enjoyed it so much that you wanted HIM to experience the same. WONDERFUL! True giving. I commend you! All I was trying to say was this, on the surface many men want to make it appear that, "It's all about YOU baby".....but it's actually THEIR "end" that might be the primary focus. Sorry, but I belive that I'm not doing a very good job of expressing my thoughts.

No, you are expressing your thoughts well enough. I understand what you are saying. And I won't lie to you. I said I think a lot of men do give a gift. Not all of them. I should have made that clear that you are more than right about some men. I just wanted to point out that, while I do not know your boyfriend, you may have his reason wrong. And that it is possible for him to feel as others do. But the bottom line is that you will never know for sure until you TALK with him about it. Why assume that it is more about him? Find out.

And isn't it a gift when both of you give the other freedom to explore without jealousies and with encouragement? You, also, can give as well as receive. I feel for swinging to work, it has to be a mutual giving of freedom. Sure, you have to decide what you are both comfortable with but, there is a tremendous amount of happiness in this if you are open, honest and sincere in your actions.

And you are right, I suppose we did evolve into this. Which is why things may be going as well as they are for us. If you were to read some of my other post, you would find that I've said several times that we were just ready for this now.

I also want you to understand that if you NEVER feel this is for you, do NOT feel bad about this. I believe you when you say he loves you. And that being the case, he wouldn't want you to do something you just aren't comfortable with. And that is not something for you to feel guilty about.

Vol

Bad Sandy · February 18, 2007

Ok now, I didn't read all the other posts before responding, so I appologize if I repeat what anyone else has said.

"I don't want to waste my time OR energy having yes, fantastic sex, but its not going to be the mind blowing, EXTRAORDINARY, out of this world sex that I have with my Honey", JUST for the sake of having a NEW experience with a DIFFERENT partner. Why settle for something that is "close", when you can have he WHOLE ENCHILLADA!??

????

Well, it's sort of like this, I love lobster. To me it is the most divine food on earth. There is nothing else I eat that tastes quite so delicious. Still, I enjoy eating steak, chicken, pasta, you get the idea. It's sort of a crude example except that sometimes the other foods taste great and you might even enjoy the lobster more because of them. In fact I find I want the lobster even more often and tend to eat it ravenously!

Alright, enough food! lol What I'm trying to say is that I connect with my husband in ways that we never did until after swinging. That seems ridiculous to you, I know, I was there. I can just tell you that we do. (And we have always has a fantastic relationship!) We had great sex before, but now it is almost as if things are magnified. It isn't really the sex that does it, I think it's the deep level of trust and intimacy I share with him now. Whenever we play with a great couple it just feels like the most natural thing on earth.

Swinging might not be for you, but in hind sight I see that I couldn't have understood it until AFTER I had done it. So unfortunately its a bit of a catch 22.

The very best to you!

Sandy

Bad Sandy · February 18, 2007

ok, now I read the rest and wanted to comment on some...

Possibly......I'll consider this outlook......BUT.....in "offering ME a pretty unique and selfless gift".....HE in turn also is getting the very same. One must ask, "what are his motivations"? Is it MY pleasure and/or enjoyment?......OR HIS "through the back door", so to speak?? Or is it I get something, HE gets something, for the benefit of our relationship?

oh, my, you sound JUST LIKE ME! lol I must have thrown that phrase "It's all about her" out at him 20 times. I couldn't understand that! That seemed ridiculous! The truth is that it wasn't all about me, it was all about US.

My Honey says he LOVES my body type, but that's HIM.....HE LOVES ME......another man???......well......you know what I'm saying here.

I spent most of my teens and young adulthood lamenting my figure. I am a pear and longed to have no hips or butt. Suprise, suprise, the number one flattering comments I get in this lifestyle... my hips and butt! lol I now embrace my curves and wouldn't want to lose them. Sure, there are men who prefer a different body shape but it doesn't matter. I love my body for the first time since puberty!

I have a hard time with the risk of STD's and the potential precautions that one must take. Like if I'm going to f**k, I WANT TO F**K.....I would totally insist on condom for the act, but otherwise the necessity of any other type of barrier or limit is a BIG turn off.

This was the hardest thing to get over. But you know, I am FAR more likely to die in a car wreck, yet I haven't stopped driving. I know the dangers of heart disease, and yet I still eat steak. We always use condoms for intercourse. Not for anything else.

And as far as the cheating comment goes. I am certain that there have been men who wanted to swing because they just wanted sex with other women. But cheating is NOT about geting to havesex with another woman or man. It is about having an emotional need filled by someone other than your spouse. Cheaters do so because they need to feel loved, respected, powerful, something. I have read over and over that it is not about sex. From what you have said about your beloved, he is not asking this as an alternative to cheating on you. The same is true for most of the rest of us.

And finally, Intuition, I am FLATTERED by your comment to me. Your posts have always been incredible insightful and helpful to me on my own journey. Thanks.

Sandy

intuition897 · February 18, 2007

All I was trying to say was this, on the surface many men want to make it appear that, "It's all about YOU baby".....but it's actually THEIR "end" that might be the primary focus. Sorry, but I belive that I'm not doing a very good job of expressing my thoughts.

No I think that clarifies things, actually. Correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe this is just a matter of trust. Okay, I know that you're going to tell me that you trust one another implicitly... but there's trust...and then there's [B]TRUST[/b]. Your honey is more than just a man. We're all more than just our gender. He isn't all those other men out there. He's Mr. Babysteps. He's yours. YOUR man. Now ask yourself honestly...is that really what YOUR man is all about? Putting an orgasm ahead of his feelings for you? Forget about the fact that he's a man for a minute, because while that may mean he has tendencies (just as women do) to certain behaviours and thought patterns, it doesn't mean it's right for anyone to simply assume anything about anyone based on gender. Many people, for example, might assume that I'm emotionally fragile or that I naturally confuse love and sex simply because I'm a woman. We have to be people first and men or women second. So just because you've heard the stereotype that it's normal for men to be non-monogamous and that their brains are often over-ridden by their penises, it just doesn't hold true when you look at the individual. Give him the benefit of the doubt, and don't automatically assume he's thinking the worst. Would he be happy to have sex with other women? Sure! But I'm thinking he really could either take it or leave it.

You know, I probably should stop shooting my mouth off until I've heard his side of the story. Is Mr. Babysteps interested in commenting on anything?

flkeyscouple · February 19, 2007

Intuition, you have a knack for putting all of this in such a, "SEE , EVERYBODY'S HAPPY" context. I think that you might "glamourize" and "idealize" this somewhat. I think that if alot of swingers were to be honest with themselves......they'd admit that if it weren't for their swinging activities, one or both of them would be involved in an affair, and I DON'T think that makes a very good statement about the relationship. I'm NOT criticizing.....but maybe looking at aspects that SOME might refuse to explore.

First let me say I've enjoyed this thread. The concerns of Babysteps are so real and remind me of some of the concerns I had originally. Intuition, you are so well 'written' that it amazes me sometimes! Good job.

Babysteps... your quote above concerns me. I truly think that most swingers are very honest with themselves knowing that they are so far from having affairs or cheating. For myself, personally, I know that if either Roger or I wanted to quit the lifestyle all we'd have to do is say 'when'. We'd quit, no questions asked. We don't need the lifestyle to fulfill our sex life - we have a GREAT sex life without any swinging. We don't need the lifestyle for friendship, or things to do. We ONLY have the lifestyle for FUN! We would quit immediately if either of us suggested quitting.

I think, in fact I KNOW you'd find a great distaste for cheaters and/or affairs among swingers.

Sarah

sereneiders · February 19, 2007

No I think that clarifies things, actually. ...

Dito

Even more, this is a perfect example of prejudice leading our toughts... you don't know WHY your hubby wants to do this, besides what he tells you, you doubt on his word.

There's anything wrong about this, you lack information, and you fill the voids for the particular case with generalizations you believe in... Unless there's something ringing your bell about your husband (miss)behavior, able to reinforce your belief.

In any case, there's only one way to solve the lack of information problem, and it is: go to the source and get it.

So IF you really ponder the idea of swinging, you should TALK about all of this with HIM. No one in the forum knows him, nor is able to speak on his behalf, so it doesn't matter how much questions you ask here, how long we discuss all of this, you have to talk with HIM. If you read around, you'd know the motto by now: "TALK, TALK and TALK".

If you're looking for arguments to avoid the whole thing (which is ok), you either you have to recognize swinging isn't for you, or we have to suppose your hubby is way more pushy than what you like to admit.

In any case, I believe it'd be worth for you, and for your relationship, to get to know your hubby better than what you actually do. Get to know him means that there shouldn't be information voids for you to fill with generalizations. And if this sort of generalizations ends up being true in your particular case, then you have a big trouble inside your relationship.

After all, your belief that swingers would be otherwise cheaters comes from the very same prejudice: guys are lead by their dicks, and either their wives indulge them by "being there" (making swinging a charade for cheating), or they have to live knowing their hubbies could be fucking an stranger behind their backs every moment they're not at home.

And wheter you ever swing or not, this is the root of an issue you will have to face sooner or later, because you already granted credit to the generalization, over the information you have or you may gather from your husband: you see your husband as one of those "lead by their dicks" guy, and my guts tells me that you're trying to find a way to engage in swinging just to avoif the supossedly fate of end up being cheated on.

If this is true, then you're trying to take one for the team BIG TIME, to take the whole responsibility for your relationship, but... a relationship is made by two, the responsibility is a shared one, and there's nothing you can do to take over your shoulders whatever responsability belonging to your hubby.

IF you hubby really were one of those "lead by their dicks" guy, then he WILL cheat on you, EVEN if you indulge him swinging. Whether your swing or not, it won't change this fact, so... do NOT swing if it doesn't thrills you.

SWINGING ISN'T A RECIPE TO PRESERVE NOR TO SAVE A RELATIONSHIP.

So, stop talking of swinging and start getting to know your husband, bearing in mind that you may dislike what you'll find out, to the point of realizing there is no future in the relationship... but also that you could find a prize: to find out how solid the relationship foundings are as to have a future, EVEN if you two NEVER, EVER swing.

intuition897 · February 19, 2007

I just have to Dito sereneiders reply. That pretty much says it all.

catslaughing · February 19, 2007

Umm kiss method.

If you do not want to do it, say no. If this is not an acceptable answer, then find someone else.

Babysteps · February 20, 2007

Unless there's something ringing your bell about your husband (miss)behavior, able to reinforce your belief.

your hubby is way more pushy than what you like to admit.

"lead by their dicks" guy, and my guts tells me that you're trying to find a way to engage in swinging just to avoif the supossedly fate of end up being cheated on.

Ok, now I KNOW that I have mislead some of you. ALL of the statements that I have highlighted COULD NOT BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH......AND DO NOT APPLY TO US.

The statements that I am making here are LARGELY for the sake of playing "devil's advocate".....an EXAMINATION of the lifestyle, like I said before, I am a big "overthinker"......I'M GENERALIZING.....asking YOU ALL.....to....."suppose this....or suppose that"......get it?? YES, SOME of what I have written can relate directly to my relationship......BUT, the way some of you are interpretting some things is far far from the truth.

And I'm not going to get into the "dymanics" of our love again. Yes, he loves me, fiercely, I have no doubt about that. He'd never push me, or want to see me hurt. He DOESN'T think with his dink......he's a deep man.

All's I am doing here is trying to look at every angle, BECAUSE,I am very frustrated with my inability to completely grasp this......I'm trying my best to figure it out.....HOPING for that "AHH HAA" moment.

And UNFORTUNAELY now, ( no one's fault), that the statements were made implying he is an shallow and selfish man, I will never bring him here, to see this, he'd be quite upset, I don't need that.

Don't get me wrong......I love to hear from you, you have just misunderstood part of my intent.

Babysteps · February 20, 2007

Meh, think nothing of it. Just haven't had your coffee yet. Been there. It takes a lot more than someone's honest opinion to personally offend me. I understand how emotionally draining this must be for you. Believe me I do, as we've been there before.

Your a very, VERY understanding gal......and I DO get soooo much from your responses, I go back and read them over and over, I'm very grateful that you take the time.

gatorvol64 · February 20, 2007

am doing here is trying to look at every angle, BECAUSE,I am very frustrated with my inability to completely grasp this......I'm trying my best to figure it out.....HOPING for that "AHH HAA" moment.

And my point (and maybe others) is that you can't have that "AHH HAA" moment without talking to him. Also, I think the majority of us were trying to get you to give him a chance...not say that he is shallow.

Vol

Babysteps · February 20, 2007

First let me say I've enjoyed this thread. The concerns of Babysteps are so real and remind me of some of the concerns I had originally.

And THANK YOU for that Sarah! I DO have lots more I'd like to say, But I'm starting to wonder if Ya'll might be thinking, "OKAY! ENOUGH ALREADY! YOU EITHER GET IT OR YA DON'T!" And if I need to stop, please don't hesitate to let me know. I don't want to "beat it till it's dead"......lol.

Like I said before, just looking at all the angles, playing devil's advocate.

And the truth of the matter IS.....I DON'T really have THIS much time to spend online,(lol), but I AM enjoying this, and I'm learning! A veritable WEALTH of knowledge here! I feel very fortunate to have this opportunity to interact with Ya'll!

sereneiders · February 21, 2007

The statements that I am making here are LARGELY for the sake of playing "devil's advocate".....an EXAMINATION of the lifestyle.

I am ok with this, however, wouldn't this be an "off topic"? I mean, you asked for help and advice, then you start playing devil's advocate... even when on the grounds of prejudice.

The problem is, this way the whole forum has to do with your problem. We should rewrite what we already said in the ramaining threads here. You have plenty of arguments in the forum against the prejudice you exposed. Moreover, this could deserve an entire different thread to discuss the "guy leaded by his dick" argument (and I have to remind you here, a lot of women are the ones bringing the swinging subject to their marriages... I guess they deserve to be taken for nimphos, "gal leaded by her cunt").

We're pointing out something we believe you're doing wrong, and not to swing or to avoid swinging, but to improve your chances for a good, grounded decision, and to improve your marriage wheter you ever swing or not. You dislike what you heard here, so you start "playing devil's advocate" as to divert the attention (your own attention) from this issue.

Once again, you said "I am very frustrated with my inability to completely grasp this......I'm trying my best to figure it out.....HOPING for that "AHH HAA" moment". It isn't a matter of abilities, there's no requirement for anyone (even you) to "grasp it", and less to hope for the theoretical AHH HAA moment coming from what you didn't grasp, moreover when there's a huge risk for the AHHH HHA to turn into BUAAAAAAHHHH BUAAAAHHH.

So far, my advice for you is... DON'T EVER TRY SWINGING, you don't have the wood for it (the sort of conflicts you show, and they intensity, tellme there's a huge risk for you to get very badly hurt in the process).

Understanding that this isn't for you should be enough. It is for most people who came here and get the same advice...yet, you keep pushing yourself into trying to "grasp" something allowing you to change this.

You seems to crave to please your husband, as if this inability were enough to ruin your marriage... and if this were true, then your marriage is already in big problems. And this isn't about your husband (if he's pushy, selfish or whatever), because to make up my mind about him, I need to read HIS OWN WORDS about this. This is about you, facing the edge of the clift, up to blindly jump to the void just because of your own cravings. You risk to hurt yourself, mostly because you're not granting credit to your husband, the credit that he WILL love you even with your "inability" to grasp all of this, and this way, YOU could be jeopardizing your marriage.

Again, we're not the ones you should be asking question and discussing all of this, your husband is.

Babysteps · February 21, 2007

You dislike what you heard here, so you start "playing devil's advocate" as to divert the attention (your own attention) from this issue.

No, YOUR WRONG......SOOOOO WRONG! I'm not looking to "divert" any attention, I don't stick my head in the sand! I'M FRUSTRATED, NOT IN FEAR OF WHAT CHOOSING TO NOT SWING WILL DO TO MY RELATIONSHIP. Again, I fear that you have misinterpretted the SPIRIT in which I write.

It isn't a matter of abilities, there's no requirement for anyone (even you) to "grasp it", and less to hope for the theoretical AHH HAA

And THIS I completely disagree with also, I don't even understand how you could say such a thing. One must not "grasp" the concept before one possibly engages in it??

So far, my advice for you is... DON'T EVER TRY SWINGING

Don't rule me out yet

Understanding that this isn't for you should be enough. It is for most people who came here and get the same advice...yet, you keep pushing yourself into trying to "grasp" something allowing you to change this.

So what your saying here is that since I haven't IMMEDIATELY understood this, I never will, and I might as well just forget about it. You don't think I should be asking others more experienced the questions that I might have? Or bounce ideas off of them? Not even make an effort? I'm frustrated, want to keep an open mind. But I guess I might as well just forget about it.

as if this inability were enough to ruin your marriage... and if this were true, then your marriage is already in big problems.

Again....soooo wrong, you've misunderstood.

the credit that he WILL love you even with your "inability" to grasp all of this,

And yes, your right, and probably love me even more for it.

I think your saying I'm a little too deep, not frivolous enough??

avid · February 21, 2007

Babysteps, I have to say I think the same way I suppose you to think - out loud.

I've followed this thread since the beginning, and what I'm hearing you to say is not that you don't ever want to swing, it's more that you're rattling around the concepts in your head so that you can see the big picture and whether it applies to you.

Good for you for giving it a "good thinking".

Remember though, and sereneiders knows this too, there are all kinds of people who come to this board. The vast majority of those who come here are sincere, intelligent adults who will take a lot of time and energy (and words, in some cases), to fully discuss a situation/concern/problem/opportunity. Some of those people you may utterly connect with, and others you may say "meh" too. That's okay.

Remember, we're all hairy, old, fat, naked men sitting in front of our keyboards anyway. Take it for what it's worth.

You're doing great. I hope you stick around and join in some of the other conversations we've got going.

sereneiders · February 21, 2007

So what your saying here is that since I haven't IMMEDIATELY understood this, I never will, and I might as well just forget about it. You don't think I should be asking others more experienced the questions that I might have? Or bounce ideas off of them? Not even make an effort? I'm frustrated, want to keep an open mind. But I guess I might as well just forget about it.

No. I didn't say that. It isn't a matter of understading. I don't know the way you feel or perceive your feelings, but perhaps you may correlate this: you don't necesarily need to understand your relationship, nor your husband, in order to love him. Much the same happens with sexual desires, the desire people have for their spouses or the desires they have for other people. It is something that either is there, or it isn't. There's nothing to understand able to "awake" a desire that isn't there in the first place.

It seems to me you don't desire sex with others than your husband, that your desire to fulfill your husbands desires and expectations, and this leads you to desire to be able to desire sex with others, and for this to happen, that there should be something to understand about this whole thing.

Meanwhile, you don't understand your husband desire to be with others once having you there. The way you portrayed swinging as a facade for cheating tells me about a (miss)understanding of what's swinging is about. Of course, I don't know your husband and this could apply to your case, but it is a pretty common missunderstanding that doesn't correlate with the way swingers perceive ourselves, and perhaps not even the way your husband perceives himself.

If you read my previous posts, I said "wheter your ever swing or not" many times, but it seems to me you're not accepting the change that you may never swing. And this isn't a dart aimed at you, I strongly believe this is a very important rhing to ponder. If we (my wife and me) ever feel we REQUIRE to swing, we'd stop swinging in a heartbeat.

We swing because this is something we BOTH WANTS to do, we BOTH CAN DO, and NEITHER of us NEEDS to do. As for me, this is minimal requirement for anyone to swing.

And I have the impression that you wouldn't even be thinking of swinging if your husband wasn't tell you he swung before and misses it (as opposed to the BOTH WANTS), that you may not be able to do it, as least right now (as opposed to BOTH CAN), and that you NEED to do it as to fulfill your husband wishes (as opposed to NEITHER NEEDS).

I am no telling this cannot change, I am telling how it seems to be today, and ALSO that, for this to change, you two needs to improve your communication and solve issues that you MAY have in your marriage, issues I ave the impression they're there from what I read in between your lines.

sereneiders · February 22, 2007

Babysteps,

I guess I should told you this before, but now it seems it can make some sense.

I bring the swinging subject to my wife the first year we was togheter... about 16 years ago. She said a sound NO WAY, and I drop the subject.

About 4 years ago she was the one bringing back the subject, partly because she was thinking of this all these years, slowly, at her own peace, and partly because I accepted her choice without arguing, without EVER bringing the subject again. Ultimatelly, because she was confident about my choice of being with her for the rest of our lives, no matter of what, even at the price of being up to put my fantasies on the closet and get rid of them from time to time to jack off.

So, more than 10 years later, she said... "what the hell? why not? I don't ahve any moral issue about this, I also fantasize of being with others, I know there's now way someone else would be able to divert my attention from you, and there's no way someone else would be able to divert your attention from me... so, let's give this a try"... And we keep trying 4 years later

Even more, we engaged in swinging, then we engaged in polyamorous relationships, and everithing was, and still is, great.

I never cheated on my wife, and she never cheated on me (and if you say "well... as long as you know" I'll answer, "and if she did, I don't really care... whatever she did with someone else never dimished her love for me, and that's all I care about"), and after 10 years of "not cheating on each other", I know I won't cheat on her, and that I am not doing it as a way to relief a desire to cheat on her.

My point is, we started swinging when both or us was ready for it. It took 10 years, and it could take 20, 30... or never happen, without affecting our relationship. We both KNOW about this, and this was required in order to swing.

You need trust and confidence on who you are with, on your relationship strengt being bullet proof, BEFORE even thinking of swinging, IF you want to try it knwoing that your relationship will survive whatever experience you have, for good or bad it could be.

What I am telling, and I guess what other people is telling you, is to develop a trust and confidende that, so far and from your own words, you doesn't seem to have. And just once there, jump into the party with us!

Express Service · February 22, 2007

honestly........................have u when making love fantasized about another.........think and think hard............

perhaps he gets a hard on just thinking about swinging............just seeing another male playing with you.............

walk the way once and perhaps u may enjoy............u always have the right to end it.

Bad Sandy · February 22, 2007

Much the same happens with sexual desires, the desire people have for their spouses or the desires they have for other people. It is something that either is there, or it isn't. There's nothing to understand able to "awake" a desire that isn't there in the first place.

It seems to me you don't desire sex with others than your husband, that your desire to fulfill your husbands desires and expectations, and this leads you to desire to be able to desire sex with others, and for this to happen, that there should be something to understand about this whole thing.

I find it funny how multiple people can read the same thread and feel completely different about it. Babysteps, I have said it before, and I'll say it again, I WAS YOU! I absolutely had an "awakening" to my desires. For me it began with very frank fantasizing during sex. My husband and I discovered we both found our best friends sexually attractive. Our steamy pillow talk about them began an awakening in me I had NO idea was there. Unlike most, I think you are absolutely going to be swinging at some point. I too have a habit of researching things to death. But mainly because I like to look at all the angles of an issue. I encourage you to keep exploring your issues for as long as you need to.

And as an aside, everyone keeps telling you to talk to your spouse about it, but I want you to know that it is ok if you need to work this through a bit on your own too. I didn't want to get my husband's hopes up so I pondered the subject for months without him knowing. He was quite suprised when I said, you know, I think I'd like to try swinging. Everyone does things in their own way, and as long as you maintain respect for each other, it's ok.

Sandy

sereneiders · February 23, 2007

I find it funny how multiple people can read the same thread and feel completely different about it. Babysteps, I have said it before, and I'll say it again, I WAS YOU! I absolutely had an "awakening" to my desires. For me it began with very frank fantasizing during sex. My husband and I discovered we both found our best friends sexually attractive. Our steamy pillow talk about them began an awakening in me I had NO idea was there. Unlike most, I think you are absolutely going to be swinging at some point. I too have a habit of researching things to death. But mainly because I like to look at all the angles of an issue. I encourage you to keep exploring your issues for as long as you need to.

Unlike you, it doesn't seems she has an "awakening" to her desires. She said she has a husband who swung before meet her, who's telling her he misses it and he'd like her to give it a try, and that she'd love to be able to fulfill his desires.

Not everyone approaches the lifestyle by doing the same path, nor comming from the same place. When we read a story, we may choose to find out what it has in common with our own story, or what makes it different.

Like you, my wife had her own "awakening", it took 10 years for her to have it and make up her mind about swinging. And yet, I choose to focus on the differences. It'd be easy to say "go for it" when you won't be there should something blow up in their faces, but I preferred a conservative approach to swinging for ourselves, and I believe this is something healthy, so I prefer to take the time to dig in deepth in every aspect bringing me doubts before taking a cheering atittude.

She has the right to explore every aspect of this, and up to me, she's most than welcome to discuss whatever she need in this board. But while my doubts remains, I will keep advicing her to not swing.

And as an aside, everyone keeps telling you to talk to your spouse about it, but I want you to know that it is ok if you need to work this through a bit on your own too. I didn't want to get my husband's hopes up so I pondered the subject for months without him knowing. He was quite suprised when I said, you know, I think I'd like to try swinging. Everyone does things in their own way, and as long as you maintain respect for each other, it's ok.

I wholly agree with you here.

sexsexsex · February 23, 2007

swinging is fun

sexsexsex · February 23, 2007

but you have to be carefull on what you do

Bad Sandy · February 23, 2007

I prefer to take the time to dig in deepth in every aspect bringing me doubts before taking a cheering atittude.

I hope I didn't appear to be telling her to just go for it! She absolutely has to explore her doubts inside and out before deciding anything. I certainly did. It was probably 3 years from the first suggestion of a threesome by my husband until the day I decided to give it a whirl. The first several years I flat out refused to even consider it. Baby steps is at a point I didn't even get to until I was almost ready to try. I suppose that is why it seems to me like she's likely to try it. I may just be projecting my experience onto hers, which you point out, could be wrong. Thanks.

Sandy

February 26, 2007

Babysteps,

I sent you a private message to answer your question of me. Hadn't been on in a while so sorry for the lateness of reply.

Fringeswinger

Neofree · February 27, 2007

Babysteps, you might try seeing if he's interested in going to a club to look around and maybe play together only. Or meet up with a couple for same room sex. Just have a strict no touch rule... No saying if it will ever be more. This is what me and my wife have agreed on. Still havent gone yet though.

sereneiders · February 28, 2007

Babysteps, you might try seeing if he's interested in going to a club to look around and maybe play together only. Or meet up with a couple for same room sex. Just have a strict no touch rule... No saying if it will ever be more. This is what me and my wife have agreed on. Still havent gone yet though.

LOL, she's not the one here trying to convince him about this, but it seems it's the other way around.

Neofree · February 28, 2007

No I got that. But I mean it might be a comprimise she's willing to make and leave it open from there. Just make no promises. Recommended starting point no matter what your intentions are.

February 28, 2007

[ Ask him to start off with very tame fantasies. Don't jump right into swinging! Try flirting with the waiter or the sales associate at the electronics store. Try dressing up sexy and go to the mall or something. Have him let you know when he notices someone eyeing you up. It's just fun! It's just play! Don't assume the worst; just trust him and...play!

What a great idea! I think we all pretty much know how he will react, but put the shoe on the other foot. Ask HIM to flirt around in your presence and see how YOU feel!

I accidentally fell into this myself, and that's what told me I couldn't handle the reality (but the fantasy still blows me away). If I have posted this before I apologize.

At my wife's office Christmas Party last year, she wanted to dance and I didn't want to (except slow dancing, I hate dancing - I'm uncoordinated and it makes me feel stupid). Anyway, I suggested she dance with an attractive younger male co-worker who liked to dance. All the other ladies liked to dance with him too, probably because not only is he good, but the other husband's don't like to dance any more than I do. Cool.

Anyway, they danced together to some rock song or something, no problem, then came back to the table. As a few other people were standing around next to our table, he made some funny comment or told a joke or something. Everyone laughed (including me) and my wife who was standing next to him, gently and obviously squeezed his arm or playfully punched his shoulder or something like that.

My reaction was a second of rage! Totally internalized and not noticible to anyone else, but I got so jealous that she paid any kind of attention to this guy! How dare she? Only I am allowed to make her laugh! She can't touch ANY one else in ANY way even if in public in a group of fully clothed people!

How ridiculous! You have to know my wife and how stupid it is to even think that she would in her wildest dreams feel an attraction to anyone but me, much less only attempt to make me jealous. After that second I was just pissed off at myself for even being pissed off. Perfectly innocent everyday behavior that I'm SURE I myself have engaged in (OK but not with dancing involved). No justification for any jealousy AT ALL, but there it was, and I felt it!

Now I have been married to my wife for going on 15 years with 3 kids behind us. No problems, and we continue to slowly explore and sometimes add a few things to our repitoires (although we are really tame by this board's standards). My point is you sometimes do not know how you will react in a certain situation, especially one involving someone you love and trust.

That little unplanned test pretty much told me that although my biggest fantasy is and continues to be to see her with another guy or girl or do a threesome, I don't believe I could handle the physical reality.

Isn't that strange?

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