Have any of you had second thoughts after playing?

[Tncuple 21]

My wife and I have been swinging occasionally for several years, now she's thinking it was wrong to be doing it. A little history, we met when she was 17. She had lived a very protected life and knew nothing about sex, she had never seen a naked man or heard of oral sex. Well, I changed all that, we married and after a few years I brought up the idea of swinging, she was dead set against it at first so I dropped it, after about a year she brought it up and said she would like to try it. We did a MFM and she said she loved it. Then we did a swap with a couple and she loved that. She always brought it up when she was ready for it again. We have been to on premise clubs, motels, and house parties. I've seen her fuck 4 guys in one night and suck guys off one after the other and seem like she couldnt get enough. Now she's thinking it was all wrong even though she really enjoyed it. After all these years it's hard for me to understand. She also said if I really wanted to continue she would too but I wouldnt want to if she wasnt really into it. What makes people change like this? We are both in our late 40s now and our home sex life is still good. Maybe because she is a grandmother now and thinking of our grandkids or our 2 grown daughters.

In a quandery here.

Tncuple

[Spoomonkey 421]

I am going to take a stab at this and say that it sounds like she is looking for you to take all of the moral responsibility for what she is doing. She likes it, but feels bad about it, but will do it if you still want to...

 

In other words, "give me someone else to blame so I don't feel so dirty."

 

Personally, I don't think you should give her that. It isn't healthy. What she needs to do is either decide to quit or dig deep and find out what sort of moral programming is causing her to be so guilt-ridden.

 

Morals are a touchy thing - and incredibly personal. She needs to confront hers. What makes it "wrong" - especially if she enjoys it so much? Who set that standard? Is that standard really hers - or is it someone else's?

 

This really is one of those things that is bigger than swinging. Sure - you can both walk away - and if she is really asking you to take the responsibility for it, that is what I would do - but in the end what does she learn about herself and about the freedom that she has as a woman to be who she wants to be; not who someone, somewhere told her she had to be? How will simply "not swinging" allow her to discover herself?

 

Maybe I am a bit to philosophical about it, but I do know how swinging has allowed both Mrs Spoo and I to set our own rules and live our lives according to what will make it exciting and fulfilling for us. I could post a book on the "emergent experience" of both of us - finally accepting our sexual selves - but the bottom line is, it was worth more than I can express to go through a process of aligning our morality with the reality of who we are - instead of allowing something outside to beat us into an uncomfortable conformity that says "grandmothers shouldn't swing".

 

Spoomonkey

[Swing*8701 887]

Susan here-- It's fair to say I've enjoyed men in group play as much, if not more so, than your wife has. That being said, it's not unusual to become philosophical about all aspects of our lives and say,"Why am I doing this ?" and when no real answers present themselves, fall upon standard values and morals as guideposts.

 

The previous reply mentions that the moral responsibility to continue or not is being placed upon you. That is correct and you should not fall into that trap. There's a reason why Lifestyle couples clearly state that you both need want these experiences. No one 'takes one for the team' as they say.

 

Now, I have a friend that knows I enjoy group play and she did bring the moral questions, etc up to me and asked why I do it. I simply explained that I have group sex because I enjoy it and that's all there is to it. It took my a long time not to make sex have an extreme or religious context, but simply be something playful.

 

Now, that being said, we're very smart about how we Play. There are very real disease and pregnancy factors and we control those factors almost to a fault.

 

Lastly, some people do grow out of the desire to Swing. They've done it, got what they wanted out of it and move on. Or, their level of libido does change. Or, they don't feel as attractive as they used to be and that they won't be as desirable as they once were. Or, something else completely. As always, keep talking. Be well.

[singleagain 26]

tncuple asks: "What makes people change like this?"

 

I used to struggle with my innerself about whether swinging is morally acceptable or not. Not any more. Coming from a fundamentalist Baptist background but fortunate enough to have a great friend who is an accomplished Greek scholar as well as a Bible scholar I have been able to understand more about my own moral fiber (and the morality of God) than I ever thought possible.

 

Conflict raised its ugly head (almost as ugly as the green-eyed monster) quite often until I realized God cares less about what I do than how I love Him and others. When I came to fully understand the concept of the first two of the Ten Commandments I realized that recreational sex is not the morally crippling activity that I had been taught. It certainly is no more wrong than a friendly Texas Hold-em tournament with a $20.00 buy-in. And of course my fundamentalist background had once led me to believe that such gambling was a soul killing sin from which one never recovers.

 

Until one comes to a complete understanding of God's idea of morality there will always be conflict about what is moral and what is not.

 

You said "Now she's thinking it was all wrong even though she really enjoyed it." Until she concludes for herself that it is not all wrong, there is simply nothing you or anyone else can do about it. Give her room to grow. Make sure she has an opportunity to read this thread. Good luck and God speed.

 

Singleagain

[Cloud of Love 16]

My sense of religious guilt melted away on the day when I realized the following.

 

1) My wife loves me so unconditionally that she wants to swing with me and isn't jealous or threatened by it. She takes joy in my joy and our joy together.

2) I love my wife so unconditionally that I want to swing with her and I'm not jealous or threatened by it. I take joy in her joy and our joy together.

3) God, by definition (at least the only definition that I can accept) is Love...and God, by definition, CANNOT love us less than I love my wife or she loves me. God's love is unconditional.

 

As long as we are in this together, with full communication and acceptance on both our parts, and as long as we are with couples who have the same kind of relationship, swinging isn't sinning....on the contrary, it seems to us a very LOVING and INTIMATE thing we share together, that brings us closer together and improves our lives. How can that be sin? How can that be wrong if it increases love? It makes our hearts sing.

[prettylady 221]

My sense of religious guilt melted away on the day when I realized the following.

 

1) My wife loves me so unconditionally that she wants to swing with me and isn't jealous or threatened by it. She takes joy in my joy and our joy together.

2) I love my wife so unconditionally that I want to swing with her and I'm not jealous or threatened by it. I take joy in her joy and our joy together.

3) God, by definition (at least the only definition that I can accept) is Love...and God, by definition, CANNOT love us less than I love my wife or she loves me. God's love is unconditional.

 

As long as we are in this together, with full communication and acceptance on both our parts, and as long as we are with couples who have the same kind of relationship, swinging isn't sinning....on the contrary, it seems to us a very LOVING and INTIMATE thing we share together, that brings us closer together and improves our lives. How can that be sin? How can that be wrong if it increases love? It makes our hearts sing.

 

That was beautiful

 

Your friend,

Prettylady

[Lawguy 15]

My sense of religious guilt melted away on the day when I realized the following.

 

1) My wife loves me so unconditionally that she wants to swing with me and isn't jealous or threatened by it. She takes joy in my joy and our joy together.

2) I love my wife so unconditionally that I want to swing with her and I'm not jealous or threatened by it. I take joy in her joy and our joy together.

3) God, by definition (at least the only definition that I can accept) is Love...and God, by definition, CANNOT love us less than I love my wife or she loves me. God's love is unconditional.

 

As long as we are in this together, with full communication and acceptance on both our parts, and as long as we are with couples who have the same kind of relationship, swinging isn't sinning....on the contrary, it seems to us a very LOVING and INTIMATE thing we share together, that brings us closer together and improves our lives. How can that be sin? How can that be wrong if it increases love? It makes our hearts sing.

 

Hey, I don't want to appear to be on a high horse, etc., but every time I hear the "God is Love" refrain--or something similar--I get an uncomfortable feeling. Yes, God is Love and His love is unconditional. This does not mean that He will reward disobedience or faithlessness simply because He loves us. The worst thing any of us can do is to fool our own inner selves with such disingenuity. I mean, I love all of my own children, certainly, but I also have a few that I trust more and will give more responsibility to (due to their obedience). I guess what I'm saying is while love is always there, it does not shield us from God's natural reaction to disobedience.

 

Just a thought, not a sermon. (and yes, I've swung before)

 

Lawguy

[prettylady 221]

Well if being loved by God means that I am not allowed to live a full filling life then I choose disobedience.

I hold by the "God created sex, the church created marriage" ideals. I don't harm my children, I don't steal, or kill humans or animals. I help the less fortunate, I volunteer by teaching young children, I smile, laugh, and make people around me happy.

I may burn in hell for saying this, but if all the good I do wont out weigh the "bad". Then to damn bad. Fire and brimstone here I come.

Your friend,

Prettylady.

 

PS, No I have not had second thoughts after playing. I did how ever need time assess what I just did. In the end I smiled and said "I LIKED IT". facelick

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

 

My wife and I have been swinging occasionally for several years, now she's thinking it was wrong to be doing it.

Tncuple mentions nothing in his opening post about his wife having moral issues with swinging. I think people can look back on something they've done and in hindsight feel there was something "wrong" about a decision they made and it can have nothing to do with morals or God or religious beliefs. So I don't think we should presume it is a morality issue for Mrs Tncuple.

 

She may be looking back and realizing swinging didn't provide anything of great value to her life. She may feel she could have invested herself in some other adventure or exploration that would have been more satisfying.

 

I'd prefer to wait and see what Mr Tncuple can add that would clarify his wife's decision - once he knows why she feels swinging was wrong.

 

 

...some people do grow out of the desire to Swing. They've done it, got what they wanted out of it and move on. Or, their level of libido does change. Or, they don't feel as attractive as they used to be and that they won't be as desirable as they once were. Or, something else completely...

Susan brings up some very good points. I feel the reasons she mentions will be my reasons for calling it quits one day.

 

We will all quit swinging one day.

 

LM

[prettylady 221]

 

We will all quit swinging one day.

 

LM

 

 

Say it isn't so LikeMinds, Please say it isn't so!

 

Your friend,

Prettylady

[Tncuple 21]

OK, we had a little talk about this last night. She started a new job a couple of months ago and recently this subject came up with a few of her work friends. The girls just thought it was nasty to even think about and the one guy that was in the conversation just told them all that that he would fuck all of them right there but no way was he going to let his wife get involved. I know that we have all heard talk like this before but this time it just got her thinking about.

I actually think she will get over it but will take a while to sort it out for herself. We dont actually do it that often anymore, just about 3 times a year, but I sure would miss it if we have to stop complety.

She does go to church and sometimes talks about hipocrites (sp) she talks to there but I really dont think that is the problem now, at least she didnt mention it last night.

Thanks for everything.

Ron and Carol

[singleagain 26]

Tncuple mentions nothing in his opening post about his wife having moral issues with swinging. I think people can look back on something they've done and in hindsight feel there was something "wrong" about a decision they made and it can have nothing to do with morals or God or religious beliefs. So I don't think we should presume it is a morality issue for Mrs Tncuple.

 

She may be looking back and realizing swinging didn't provide anything of great value to her life. She may feel she could have invested herself in some other adventure or exploration that would have been more satisfying.

 

I'd prefer to wait and see what Mr Tncuple can add that would clarify his wife's decision - once he knows why she feels swinging was wrong.

 

Susan brings up some very good points. I feel the reasons she mentions will be my reasons for calling it quits one day.

 

We will all quit swinging one day.

 

LM

 

You present an interesting variable. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

 

"Morality refers to the concept of human ethics which pertains to matters of good and evil — also referred to as "right or wrong" — used within three contexts: individual conscience; systems of principles and judgments — sometimes called moral values —shared within a cultural, religious, secular or philosophical community; and codes of behavior or conduct morality.

 

Personal morality defines and distinguishes among right and wrong intentions, motivations or actions, as these have been learned, engendered, or otherwise developed within each individual."

 

I remind you of what spoomonkey said in his post: "she is looking for you to take all of the moral responsibility for what she is doing." So even if what she did has no value in itself for her, she is trying to pass off her "bad feeling" to her husband. She (Mrs Tncuple) is quoted by her husband as saying "...if I really wanted to continue she would too..." which is simply a way of putting the monkey (apologies to spoo) on Mr. Tncuple's back. Or as spoo so eloquently put it "What she needs to do is either decide to quit or dig deep and find out what sort of moral programming is causing her to be so guilt-ridden."

 

Singleagain

[Cloud of Love 16]

Hey, I don't want to appear to be on a high horse, etc., but every time I hear the "God is Love" refrain--or something similar--I get an uncomfortable feeling. Yes, God is Love and His love is unconditional. This does not mean that He will reward disobedience or faithlessness simply because He loves us. The worst thing any of us can do is to fool our own inner selves with such disingenuity. I mean, I love all of my own children, certainly, but I also have a few that I trust more and will give more responsibility to (due to their obedience). I guess what I'm saying is while love is always there, it does not shield us from God's natural reaction to disobedience.

 

Just a thought, not a sermon. (and yes, I've swung before)

 

Lawguy

 

I understand your point, but I guess I just don't see it as disobedience...certainly the fruits of this have been good so far in our lives. We are more loving, more open, more compassionate with each other and with other people, gentler, friendler, more generous, and all around much happier since we decided we would do this. I'm not saying it would work for everyone...on the contrary, I imagine it would be very, very damaging for many relationships. But for us it is taking a wonderful relationship and making it even more intimite and loving, breaking down our remaining ego barriers. If this be disobedience, then I guess I'm disobedient.

[cubnamy1995 124]

Hey, I don't want to appear to be on a high horse, etc., but every time I hear the "God is Love" refrain--or something similar--I get an uncomfortable feeling. Yes, God is Love and His love is unconditional. This does not mean that He will reward disobedience or faithlessness simply because He loves us. The worst thing any of us can do is to fool our own inner selves with such disingenuity. I mean, I love all of my own children, certainly, but I also have a few that I trust more and will give more responsibility to (due to their obedience). I guess what I'm saying is while love is always there, it does not shield us from God's natural reaction to disobedience.

 

Just a thought, not a sermon. (and yes, I've swung before)

 

Lawguy

 

OK, I don't mean to get on a high-horse either, nor would I knock anyone elses beliefs, but as a seminary graduate and former candidate for ordained ministry, I can't pass this one up.

 

I too don't understand why this is considered disobedience. After all, the biblical definition of adultery was a property crime committed by women who stole property from their husbands (their own bodies) and gave them to someone else. The other man was simply guilty of receiving stolen property. Swinging doesn't fit the definition of adultery from the biblical context.

 

Also, polygamy was an accepted practice, and the only known condemnation of multiple relations was in the case of bishops who were commanded by Paul to only have one wife. And finally, for the bi ladies out there who may have morality issues, homosexual behavior was considered and "abomination" which simply meant it was something very un-Jewish to do. We misunderstand "abomination" as "sin."

 

Sorry for all that, but I paid so much money for that seminary education that I got to use it somewhere

 

Anyway, I am a deeply-devoted, very spiritual, churchgoing person who has never lost a moment of sleep over swinging. It is something we do together, with love for one another. If God has a problem with that, then He is not the God I thought He was.

[flkeyscouple 21]

Anyway, I am a deeply-devoted, very spiritual, churchgoing person who has never lost a moment of sleep over swinging. It is something we do together, with love for one another. If God has a problem with that, then He is not the God I thought He was.

I was raised in a very religious family and I wondered if I'd have 'guilt' after our first swing experience, but I feel very much like cubnamy does - if God is going to hold swinging against me, he's not the God I thought He was! I think God is much more concerned with WHO I am, HOW I treat others, and how much I love my husband and family, much more than my sex/recreational/social life! BTW, I never did have guilty feelings about swinging!!

[Lawguy 15]

OK, I don't mean to get on a high-horse either, nor would I knock anyone elses beliefs, but as a seminary graduate and former candidate for ordained ministry, I can't pass this one up.

 

I too don't understand why this is considered disobedience. After all, the biblical definition of adultery was a property crime committed by women who stole property from their husbands (their own bodies) and gave them to someone else. The other man was simply guilty of receiving stolen property. Swinging doesn't fit the definition of adultery from the biblical context.

 

Also, polygamy was an accepted practice, and the only known condemnation of multiple relations was in the case of bishops who were commanded by Paul to only have one wife. And finally, for the bi ladies out there who may have morality issues, homosexual behavior was considered and "abomination" which simply meant it was something very un-Jewish to do. We misunderstand "abomination" as "sin."

 

Sorry for all that, but I paid so much money for that seminary education that I got to use it somewhere

 

Anyway, I am a deeply-devoted, very spiritual, churchgoing person who has never lost a moment of sleep over swinging. It is something we do together, with love for one another. If God has a problem with that, then He is not the God I thought He was.

 

Great to see a fellow man of the cloth on the boards, lol. You must know that apostle Paul said "adulterers and whoremongers God will judge." That's simply not a property issue as described by Deuteronomy or Leviticus. I guess since there's no exception for consensual adultery in the New Testament, many folks kinda conclude "a sin is a sin" when it comes to sleeping with someone other than their spouses. As for polygamy, yes, at times it does appear that it was sanctioned by God. At other times, it appears that it was proscribed. Is that God chaning His mind? Maybe, but I doubt it. Perhaps it's a case of changed rules for changed circumstances. My original point was (and it was addressed in an earlier response to my first post) it's much better to say, "hey perhaps this is a sin, but I'm having a hard time understanding why" than it is to redefine sin (or even God for that matter) in order to avoid the hard questions about this lifestyle. Just my humble opinion.

 

Lawguy

[cubnamy1995 124]

Great to see a fellow man of the cloth on the boards, lol. You must know that apostle Paul said "adulterers and whoremongers God will judge." That's simply not a property issue as described by Deuteronomy or Leviticus. I guess since there's no exception for consensual adultery in the New Testament, many folks kinda conclude "a sin is a sin" when it comes to sleeping with someone other than their spouses. As for polygamy, yes, at times it does appear that it was sanctioned by God. At other times, it appears that it was proscribed. Is that God chaning His mind? Maybe, but I doubt it. Perhaps it's a case of changed rules for changed circumstances. My original point was (and it was addressed in an earlier response to my first post) it's much better to say, "hey perhaps this is a sin, but I'm having a hard time understanding why" than it is to redefine sin (or even God for that matter) in order to avoid the hard questions about this lifestyle. Just my humble opinion.

 

Lawguy

 

I get what you are saying. Well, I'm not a man of the cloth anymore, but I once was. To be honest, the more I learned in seminary, the more disillusioned with the church I became. It got to the point that I felt I was just going through the motions and got out. I came to the place that I felt that there was a God out there who loves us, but I'm not going to let somebody else tell me what that's all about, whether it was some guy who wrote a letter to a church in Corinth 2000 years ago, or some pastor today. I think if you try to live a life in which you care about the well being of others, are compassionate and generous in spirit, you are in pretty good shape. I think too much time is wasted on the trivial junk.

 

The God I came to know and understand probably cares a lot more about the pain and suffering of countless millions in this world than what two or more grown-ups do consentualy in their own bedrooms. No disrespect meant to anyone.

[Spoomonkey 421]

I certainly hope that my referring to morality (which is simply one's perception of what is right and what is wrong) didn't drag us into a religious debate. That was not my intention. A person has a sense of morality whether they are Christian, spiritual, agnostic or atheist. Right and wrong will always haunt us - and much of it is the distant beat of what other people drummed into us.

 

As a former fellow "man of the cloth" I can say that god is about as consistent as the weather and the bible about as accurate as a weather man. If god cares about anything, I sincerely doubt he cares about things as trivial as who I have sex with. If he does, he is nothing more than a kid, playing with blocks and given to tantrums.

 

I am sure the OP is now reading this thread asking, "what the hell did I start?"

 

But, going back to my original point, I'll simply say that from the perspective of a "born-again agnostic" dragging god into things is just another way of shifting the moral weight of your decisions onto someone or something else. Be responsible for your own choices, be true to yourself, don't live your life tied up in what some other thing (god, friends, society, up-bringing) expects you to be.

 

That has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with owning your own moral compass.

 

Spoomonkey

[singleagain 26]

Spoomonkey said: "That has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with owning your own moral compass."

 

I once owned a decoder ring with a compass built in. When they made it they evidently put the compass points in backwards because when it was supposed to show me that I was walking north, I found that I was actually walking south. I later owned a military grade compass and it never failed me.

 

I guess the point in this is that my compass should be based on an accurate specification. So too, should my moral compass. If it is something I create of my own volition, then how do I determine its accuracy? But I digress...I agree that the OP's original post has nothing to do with religion and everything with passing one's own hangups on to another in a seeming attempt to releive a perceived guilt.

 

In any case I too, am pleased to see that there are others that have made a serious attempt at discovering guidelines by which to set their own compass.

[prettylady 221]

We went from second thoughts to religion then finally orientering with out skipping a beat. You guys never stop amazing me.

 

Spoo also said "never life your life tied up". To that I ask, not even for a little while?

 

Your friend,

Prettylady

[subtoMistressT 22]

I get what you are saying. Well, I'm not a man of the cloth anymore, but I once was. To be honest, the more I learned in seminary, the more disillusioned with the church I became. It got to the point that I felt I was just going through the motions and got out. I came to the place that I felt that there was a God out there who loves us, but I'm not going to let somebody else tell me what that's all about, whether it was some guy who wrote a letter to a church in Corinth 2000 years ago, or some pastor today. I think if you try to live a life in which you care about the well being of others, are compassionate and generous in spirit, you are in pretty good shape. I think too much time is wasted on the trivial junk.

 

The God I came to know and understand probably cares a lot more about the pain and suffering of countless millions in this world than what two or more grown-ups do consentualy in their own bedrooms. No disrespect meant to anyone.

Well stated. I commend your choice to see through the BS that orgainzed religion seems to foist on us. Your comments are refreshing.

[cubnamy1995 124]

We went from second thoughts to religion then finally orientering with out skipping a beat. You guys never stop amazing me.

 

Spoo also said "never life your life tied up". To that I ask, not even for a little while?

 

Your friend,

Prettylady

 

 

I will say seriously that even though we now have GPS, orienteering is still a very important skill to learn.

[Spoomonkey 421]

I once owned a decoder ring with a compass built in. When they made it they evidently put the compass points in backwards because when it was supposed to show me that I was walking north, I found that I was actually walking south.

 

I had one of those too once...

 

Put together mostly by some guy name Paul

 

Spoomonkey

[singleagain 26]

I had one of those too once...

 

Put together mostly by some guy name Paul

 

Spoomonkey

 

Very Preceptive...

 

Singleagain

[Spoomonkey 421]

Very Preceptive...

 

Interesting word choice.

 

I was thinking it was more perceptive, but "preceptive" is either very clever or a simple transposition of letters. Either way, it makes for a very interesting thought...

 

Spoomonkey

[singleagain 26]

Interesting word choice.

 

I was thinking it was more perceptive, but "preceptive" is either very clever or a simple transposition of letters. Either way, it makes for a very interesting thought...

 

Spoomonkey

 

Like George...I cannot tell a lie...I meant perceptive...however since I seem to have coined a new word (didn't find preceptive in the dictionary) I agree it would make for a very interesting thought...line upon line...precept upon precept

 

singleagain

[Spoomonkey 421]

precept upon precept

 

That was how I thought that you "might" have meant it. Would have been an interesting come back. Be that as it may, I do still consider you clever

 

Spoomonkey