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mackie44

The swinging industry needs to be less homophobic to men

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The male-male interaction doesn't have to be penetration-focused. I've known guys who simply want to touch each other's genitals or give each other a body rub. The scary thing is that many of the swing clubs expressly forbid even these forms of male-male interaction.

 

As for the people who say they don't like it, fair enough. I'm not saying you have to like anything nor am I saying that you have to participate in anything you don't like. But if others want to see it or do it, they should not be prevented by archaic and inconsistent rules.

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I've been reading all of the posts and the fact that seems to strike me is the fact that when we take photos. I'll take a bunch of her and maybe some of us together, and then Fem D wants to take some of me. Since I'm such a pro, why should that make me feel weird? I mean, I'm the pro...I know what looks good or hot. But when she looks at the shots she's taken of me, she says they look great. I seem to find problems with them. :lol:

 

So...men just look "different" with each other...Sorta like when you first saw your first FF and thought that was odd. You got used to that. Why is it so hard for us to accept that Males have fantasies too? God-damn-right that it is different. Why do it if it were the same? Just as a woman making it with another woman should be "different".

 

Anyways...basically, I don't look like what I FEEL like. In fact I had to sorta of convince Fem D that she did look just fine...by showing her other shots you'd find in say Penthouse Forums. Guys just don't look that good in photos....especially those taken by non pros.

 

So, the idea that MM turns most off is just a perception, like I mentioned before as well. It's just not something we're used to seeing and additionally, not something we're necessarily looking to see.

 

The point is that there still are many a straight couple who, when they attend clubs or dances, see FF and it isn't a shock to their systems. MM at this point still is.

 

The point has also been made that every club isn't "run" the way we think it should be run.

 

One of the things that has bothered me about the no-smoking fever that has seemingly taken over our nation is the fact that business owners have been left out of how they can run their own businesses. It's dictated to them.

 

I would hate to see clubs operated in this way, as I'm sure Vegas Lee or anyone else who has ventured into this area would feel.

 

You guys must just pass over my responses, for some reason. :rolleyes: I'll just sit back and Learn from all of you...:lol:

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mackie44,

 

It appears to me that no matter what is said less then all clubs will change tonight to suit your desires nothing is going to be acceptable.

 

My question to you is, since there are many clubs out there that do not ban m/m action, why don't you just go to them? Why do you want all other clubs to change to meet what you feel they should be?

 

I am not attacking, I am asking.

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The Fuse said:
What I'm trying to get at is that we are not just talking about pistons and cylinders...we're talking about the people who are attached. Lots of factors influence how people feel witnessing sex acts, and most of those factors are about the whole participants rather than their slippery parts.

 

I am neither an engineer nor do I have a degree in anything remotely related to physics... But I have to say - errr - yes... That is what I meant :)

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Fuse, are you saying that couples won't allow their SO to experience anything that is not normal to them? Or that you can or can't mingle the two professions?

 

I have never placed those restrictions on Fem D...I want her to experience what she wants to, irrespective of my desires. That's what true freedom means to me. If I want to be with a guy, she should (in a perfect world) accept that and whether she likes it or not, not consider it anymore a threat to our relationship than if she were to want to be with a lady...even if I didn't want that to happen.

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Fuse, are you saying that couples won't allow their SO to experience anything that is not normal to them? Or that you can or can't mingle the two professions?

 

I have never placed those restrictions on Fem D...I want her to experience what she wants to, irrespective of my desires. That's what true freedom means to me. If I want to be with a guy, she should (in a perfect world) accept that and whether she likes it or not, not consider it anymore a threat to our relationship than if she were to want to be with a lady...even if I didn't want that to happen.

I'm not sure what you mean by "professions", but I don't think my posts had anything in them about what folks would "allow" their SO to do at all. It's all about what club clientele want to see or don't want to see. The question of what one spouse thinks is "normal" or acceptable is a subject for private negotiation and only slightly related to what is okay to do in front of a crowd.

 

If Mr. Fuse wanted to be with a guy, my only concern would be that STD's are more easily communicated via anal sex, so I'd make sure he knew I wanted him to be as safe as possible about it. I might even watch, even though it's not like a guy watching two women... I don't have a fantasy of jumping into the middle of two guys. But we'd go in a private room, out of deference for what others may not want to see. Simple as that.

 

About "true freedom"...In the end, we can't control each other and shouldn't want to do that. We can all do what we want to, ultimately. But I do think our desires and comfort levels should matter to each other. True freedom might be granted, but that doesn't mean our feelings don't have consequences. I think a balance is necessary. Freedom and responsibility are two sides of the same coin.

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I think there is a club in Pennsylvania which is open to all regardless of sexual preference. I can't remember it, but I did find it intriguing as to a club making such pains to accommodate to all who are into the lifestyle ethos.

 

Very good topic! One I have always wondered about not because I'm gay or anything but seeing patterns and attitudes regarding male/male intimacy.

 

Mulder

You might be referring to Swingers Palace in the Pittsburgh area. That club is straight, bi, and TV/TG/TS friendly. And there may be some other categories I don't know about. (The curious can find their website with minimum searching, I'm sure...)

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Someone on here said that they changed their profile to "bi" as an experiment (a brilliant one, I think. Very interesting. Though I'd love to know how people reacted when they were made aware that it was just a test.) to see how many men listed as "straight" were actually "bi."

 

They said they were surprised...

 

Why do they present themselves as straight? Maybe if they were less ashamed of their sexuality - and more upfront - the culture would begin to shift. Maybe the problem isn't us straight guys. Maybe it is all of the closeted bi-guys.

 

Cuz we didn't try to 'out' any of them and we didn't stop playing with them, no one was angry. We are still pretty new to the LS and did it to learn more, not to be mean. Many told us that they were the tip of the ice berg and they personally knew of others who were listed straight and actually would play as bi males.

 

They list as straight for many reasons. There seems to be a fear or dislike of even being with a bi guy. Clubs ban them. Even if they don't play bi at the clubs (not just behind closed doors-anywhere in the club)...just having admitted to doing it or being curious can get a person banned. Small house parties ban them. They are avoided and shunned. On the scale of sexuality where it's 100% heterosexual at one end or 100% homosexual at the other, studies show few are at the 100% ends. So say a guy is 80-20. 80% straight but under the right circumstances, will do oral on another guy. This guy totally prefers to play with females but that willingness to do something considered bi, can get him (and his partner) banned and shunned.

 

Someone on this board stated they loved to have their female partner done doggystyle and be under her licking her clit. But that puts the male's tongue really close to another man's penis. And that action, can get both males banned from a club if it is seen and reported. After all, they both must be bi to be comfy doing that. :rollseyes:

 

If they all came out, they would have to be willing to open their own clubs cuz there seems to be a big ick factor for some and fear for others of male bisexuality.

 

We took the route of "here are our boundaries, please respect them". Works for straight males, bi fems and straight females as well. ;)

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Someone on this board stated they loved to have their female partner done doggystyle and be under her licking her clit. But that puts the male's tongue really close to another man's penis. And that action, can get both males banned from a club if it is seen and reported. After all, they both must be bi to be comfy doing that.

 

This something I would love to do for Lovinhim except that I'd want to be the guy behind her as long as he knew my parts were off limits. I just couldn't have a dick and set balls that close to my face. That doesn't make me bi in my book. It's all about her getting something she couldn't have otherwise. IMO, a guy would have to be at least bi-curious to be able to have a set of balls bouncing off his nose or forehead. I would not have any problem playing with a couple with a bi male as long as he knew and respected that there would be no male to male action. In fact if I knew that would happen I would play with a bi-male couple specifically for that purpose. I don't think I'd have a problem seeing that scenario in a club either.

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On the scale of sexuality where it's 100% heterosexual at one end or 100% homosexual at the other, studies show few are at the 100% ends. So say a guy is 80-20. 80% straight but under the right circumstances, will do oral on another guy. This guy totally prefers to play with females but that willingness to do something considered bi, can get him (and his partner) banned and shunned.

 

If they all came out, they would have to be willing to open their own clubs cuz there seems to be a big ick factor for some and fear for others of male bisexuality.

 

Thanks for the response. Like I said - I think the experiment was a brilliant one. But I am still wondering why - if there are so few straight men according to the study you refer to - bisexual men simply don't come out. If they all came out at once - then the straight males, like myself, would be in the minority. Perhaps we would then feel as uncomfortable at the club as some of the straight women have reported around here when faced with an overwhelming bisexual female population...

 

If a bisexual male is being "shunned" I would venture a guess that they are being shunned by straight people. It is not right that they are shunned, but why would they be shunned by other bisexual folks? And if this "shunning" is so effective - as it would appear to be based on the bisexual males fear of "coming out" - then it must mean that a majority of the men at clubs are more straight than your study will allow.

 

If the majority of men are truly some shade of bisexual, then why don't they simply "stand up" and fix the matter. The argument so far has been that club owners tend to base their rules on the majority - or how they can make the most money from their club. This is an economically sound way of doing business. If the majority of men were bisexual - and this majority expressed their desire for a more open club and refused to attend a club that did not allow them then the club owners would respond.

 

My impression is that while there are certainly probably more bisexual men in the lifestyle than will admit it, it is far from a majority. And if it is, in fact, a majority, then they lack the spine of my homosexual male friends who do, daily, face being shunned for their courage in "coming out".

 

If the majority of men are bisexual, then what are they waiting for? A mass "coming out" would change the environment of swinging in the way that they want. And, I for one would be glad of it. Perhaps if bisexual men were more comfortable and confident in themselves and their feelings, I could stop having to hear about how "rare" we straight guys are ;)

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I did it to see how many were listed as str8 but admitted to being bi. Being new in the LS, we heard of male bisexuality but had no idea how many or how much to even be concerned about it. Reading threads on different sites, we understood some fear more STD's and others just expect the bi male to cross boundaries.

 

So, wondering our risk and trying to find our own acceptable limits, we did this. For us, in our area, if we want to 100% ever maybe being with a bi male, we need to give up swinging. Maybe it adds to the risk of STD's, maybe not. We decided to just accept that bi males are out there hiding.

 

Before we started the experiment, we didn't even know how most clubs banned them if they were out of the closet. We had met a few people who would not go to the club I posted about because they allowed bi males, gays and TS.

 

BTW, the studies that are published on sexuality, aren't mine. It's not my field. I read one post somewhere from a couple who both studied anthropology and they stated they learned it's the culture that determines how sexuality is expressed by both genders. So, if you want to, maybe find some studies on that?

 

Here are some links to the studies I know of:

 

Kinsey Institute Research

Kinsey Reports - Wikipedia

https://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A570098

 

I'd love to know enough to teach Human Sexuality classes one day. But today isn't that day. You might notice tho, the study by Kinsey happened in the 1940's. And gays were still very much in the closet for decades after.

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BTW, the studies that are published on sexuality, aren't mine. It's not my field.

 

Nor is it mine. And I am not one to quibble with Kinsey study, flawed though it may be (either due to selective testing, as some assert, or cultural attitudes, as others point out). I believe that there are quite a few bisexual males out there - and if the studies are true, I may very well be a rare creature as a 100% straight male.

 

But my suggestion still stands...

 

We can discuss on a message board until the internet becomes extinct, but the only change has to come from the community of bisexual males. Until they grow a pair and come out*, then we'll never really know if the attitude within swing-dom is due to fear of being "snubbed" or a major case of cultural homophobia.

 

I accept the fact that not only are there bisexual men out there, in hiding, I also accept the fact that we have probably played with them. If so, they have all respected my boundaries and that is certainly all I would request. But then, I am pretty open-minded about the bisexual thing.

 

*I say this because there have been bisexual men on this board who have been very open about their preferences and it DID affect my biases.

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I find it interesting that women would go along with the bisexual double standard. It's not unusual to see women at swing clubs who totally agree with banning bi males but not bi females. It seems to me that women are exploiting the double standard and exploiting it as well. I'm increasingly of the view that women are helping to prop up the double standard because they see it as a privilege they want to hold on to. Anyone agree?

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I find it interesting that women would go along with the bisexual double standard. It's not unusual to see women at swing clubs who totally agree with banning bi males but not bi females. It seems to me that women are exploiting the double standard and exploiting it as well. I'm increasingly of the view that women are helping to prop up the double standard because they see it as a privilege they want to hold on to. Anyone agree?

 

It is only a double standard if bisexual sex between two women is the same as bisexual sex between two men. Otherwise, it is two separate things with their own standards.

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If acceptance of bisexuality is cultural, then women have been taught m/m is unacceptable same as males have. While they have been taught f/f is sexy. So why would it be a surprise that many women have the same thoughts about male bisexuality as many men do?

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It is only a double standard if bisexual sex between two women is the same as bisexual sex between two men. Otherwise, it is two separate things with their own standards.

 

To me, this is like saying a black man forced to sit in the back of the bus is not the same as a white man forced to sit in the back of the bus. There's a difference there that anyone can see. Is it a double standard? What about a rule as to which restaurant you can eat at for fat people vs skinny people. They are different so it's not a double standard, right? Or is it only not a double standard when sex is involved?

 

After re-reading the thread will admit I can see the other side's argument. I am in the camp that would not want to be in a club where people were pissing on each other, as somebody pointed out. I can understand not wanting to see things that turn you off when your sole purpose of being at the establishment is to be turned on.

 

I am a straight guy too, believe it or not. I have argued the bisexual side of this argument here on this board, even though I don't have sex with men nor do I want to. I have watched my share of gay porn because my wife really enjoys watching it, and she watches the things I like so fair is fair. ;) From these experiences I have learned that the sight of two guys having sex does not turn me off, and it really turns my wife ON, which turns me on. Maybe there is some Pavlovian conditioning going on there, I dunno. ;) I guess I have made my arguments in these threads from that perspective, seeing what to me was a patently unfair situation for the men who wanted to participate in that activity alongside their wives and other female lovers, and for the women that enjoy watching same sex play no matter what sex is participating. Seeing these activities happen in a club would not harm my mini-Boris' vertical state, but if it would for the majority of guys in the club then I guess it's a good rule to have if the club owner wants to stay in business.

 

All that said, I still think it's a double standard, I think men are AFRAID of it because of our culture and their upbringing (how many bareback mountain jokes did you hear a couple years ago?), and I think that has a lot to do with why bisexual men don't come out and you don't see them enjoying the other half of their sexuality at your local swing club. I also believe it will gradually change when the next generation gets old enough to start showing up en-masse at the clubs.

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To me, this is like saying a black man forced to sit in the back of the bus is not the same as a white man forced to sit in the back of the bus. There's a difference there that anyone can see. Is it a double standard? What about a rule as to which restaurant you can eat at for fat people vs skinny people. They are different so it's not a double standard, right? Or is it only not a double standard when sex is involved?

 

Comparing the plight of the bisexual male as he fights for his right to enter the glory hole room at your local swing club to the struggle of an entire race to achieve some semblance of social equality is a bit of an insult to the Civil Rights movement, don't you think?

 

Without getting too pointed, I would certainly think that anyone can see a difference between a bisexual male being banned from a club (which I have maintained is a bad thing) and people being murdered for the color of their skin (which I would assert is a horrible thing).

 

However, it does help make the point that I have been making all along. It wasn't a bunch of white people in a forum who eventually talked segregation away, it was the bravery of people like Rosa Parks who stood up for their rights. In the same - albeit much less socially significant - way, bisexual males are responsible for changing the culture if they see a problem with it.

 

But, let me be clear, I don't see this as some great step along the path to equality. And I certainly would not champion a bisexual male refusing to leave the club before the pizza arrives in the same way that I would champion a woman refusing to give up her seat...

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Comparing the plight of the bisexual male as he fights for his right to enter the glory hole room at your local swing club to the struggle of an entire race to achieve some semblance of social equality is a bit of an insult to the Civil Rights movement, don't you think?

 

I made no such comparison. Nor did I mention murder anywhere (where did that come from?!?!) I was illustrating a point that you can't pick out something as simple as gender to define two separate standards, as you were trying to do. I picked examples based on skin color and body type to illustrate that a single differentiating characteristic between two people does not automatically put them into two different categories for the purposes of 'standards'. It was not my intent to make Martin Luther King, Jr. turn in his grave, and I think you know that.

 

Maybe a better example would have been the fact that in the past (and probably the present although I have not seen it in my field) women were paid less than men for the same work. That is a double standard where the only differentiating factor between the two is gender.

 

One final comment. I decided to look up the dictionary.com definition of 'double standard' and amazingly, it even has a sexual reference right there in the definition (although they have it backwards to this situation):

 

1. any code or set of principles containing different provisions for one group of people than for another, esp. an unwritten code of sexual behavior permitting men more freedom than women.

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I made no such comparison.

 

To wit:

 

To me, this is like saying a black man forced to sit in the back of the bus is not the same as a white man forced to sit in the back of the bus.

 

Early in the last century, there was a thing in America (where I am from, so it is a familiar history) called segregation. Skin color and where a person sat on a bus was a "flash point" of the Civil Rights movement.

 

A black man (or woman) during this era could be refused service at restaurants, terrorized in their homes or even murdered based simply on the color of their skin. Was this not "back of the bus" comparison you were making? If not - you are quite sloppy with your use of metaphor.

 

Personally, I think you are simply craw-dadding from your earlier comment.

 

I was illustrating a point that you can't pick out something as simple as gender to define two separate standards, as you were trying to do.

 

I think skin color and gender differences are quite different. Take this for example - what is the difference between a black man and a white man? Skin color?

 

What is the difference between a white man and a black woman? Skin color? And genitalia... And chromosomes... And a unique spirit that makes a woman a woman - and the emotional complications that make a man a man.

 

I sincerely do not see gender differences as two dimensional as you do. The differences between a man and a woman are far more complex than what dangles (or does not dangle) between their legs. I can not - for the life of me - understand how a person is successful with the opposite sex without understanding that greater differences exist.

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The swinging industry has always prided itself on being open-minded. Indeed, one of the catch-cries of the industry has been "freedom". However, I'm seriously starting to wonder whether this is actually true. The amount of discrimination that many swing clubs show towards the male-male interaction is quite shocking. This isn't true open-mindedness.

 

Sure it is--they're open-minded toward what their members want. If their member couples don't want that sort of thing (most don't), it's frowned upon. Simple as that.

 

I'm not saying that individual swingers should do things or accept things in their own lives that they don't want to. I'm simply suggesting that swing clubs should not be banning the male-male interaction. I would also say that many of the clubs are skating on thin legal ice in relation to this.

 

Heh, nothing like a lose-lose situation. It's a lawsuit in one hand (hopefully an unsuccessful one), or going out of business because couples that don't want to be around MM activity all quit their memberships. If I were a club owner, I'd fight the lawsuit. When you're a membership-funded business, you are what your members want...or you cease to exist. Quite honestly, my wife and I wouldn't want to be around MM activity. And it's not "phobia"--we're not afraid of it, we just don't like it.

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BCinTN,

 

I don't see why individuals should curtail their same-sex activity because they are in your presence. That's a very regal attitude you have, I'm afraid. If you don't like it, don't do it and don't watch it.

 

At the end of the day, I think swing clubs should allow both forms of homosexual activity, not just one. When only one is allowed, it reeks of hypocrisy.

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Spoomonkey,

 

The issue of racial discrimination is similar to sexuality discrimination. Both are discrimination based on prejudice, of "not liking" something.

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The issue of racial discrimination is similar to sexuality discrimination. Both are discrimination based on prejudice, of "not liking" something.

 

Trying to compare the level of "persecution" a bisexual male may face at a swing club with the real persecution that people face for their color (or, for that matter, homosexuals face on a daily basis) is absolutely ludicrous - and an insult to people with real struggles.

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While I respect the rights of others to do as they, as consenting adults, choose, I wonder if any thoughts of practicality factor into this particular argument. As tolerant as some may be, the fact of the matter is that many, many str8 men (including male half of couples) aren't going to attend those clubs/functions with such activity going on. Now these men (and couples) are not forbidding such action, they are choosing to avoid it because as a couple of responders have already stated, it would be a sexual turn-off.

 

Often when this debate takes place the general attitude of those "Pro bi-activity" seems to be that str8 men in the lifestyle have somehow lost their "right to be str8" once they've begun 2 swing and are homophobic if they choose not to engage in or be present where it is taking place. It seems that the UNDERLYING message of many who promote the premise of the Original Poster is that if you are str8 and male then don't swing (unless you are willing to be bi of course).

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mackie44 said:
BCinTN,

 

I don't see why individuals should curtail their same-sex activity because they are in your presence. That's a very regal attitude you have, I'm afraid. If you don't like it, don't do it and don't watch it.

It's not because of my presence--it's because a full 95% (or more) couples don't want to participate in it, don't want to see it, and don't want to be around it. The clubs follow the preferences of their members--that's their job, unless they have a fetish for bankruptcies.

 

Quote
At the end of the day, I think swing clubs should allow both forms of homosexual activity, not just one. When only one is allowed, it reeks of hypocrisy.

Life is full of double standards. Some of them are great, some not so great. Popularity or the lack thereof, not hypocrisy or the lack thereof, is what maintains or destroys them. And I'm afraid you aren't going to change the minds of the vast majority on this one.

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At the end of the day, I think swing clubs should allow both forms of homosexual activity, not just one. When only one is allowed, it reeks of hypocrisy.

 

How about watersports?

 

Scat play?

 

Where do YOU draw the line?

 

Most of us don't want to see MM play, we will not go to those clubs, and clubs being private are able to dictate their own rules. Sorry you don't like them.

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Ruff,

 

If you are straight, be straight. If you are bi, be bi. There is no-one compelling you to do anything against your will. But when a swing club bans the male form of homosexuality (as opposed to the female form of homosexuality), it's a huge double standard. It's also discriminatory and un-American.

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Un-American????

 

America is the land of double standards.

 

Some people read way too much into things.

 

There are clubs that allow and welcome male and female bi/gay. Go to them.

 

Not every club is going to meet your standards so don't go to the ones that don't live up to your expectations. It really is very simple.

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Ruff,

 

If you are straight, be straight. If you are bi, be bi. There is no-one compelling you to do anything against your will. But when a swing club bans the male form of homosexuality (as opposed to the female form of homosexuality), it's a huge double standard. It's also discriminatory and un-American.

 

Going out of business may be as American as apple pie too but no one really sets out to have their start-up go under. Which is apparently your solution to what YOU consider a "problem".

 

You seem to be unwilling to accept the reality that str8 couples and singles males WILL NOT frequent the clubs under the scenario that pleases you. So we now have mostly empty clubs with you and the gay/bi male contingent left to support the entire Swing "Industry" as you phrased it... doesn't sound too promising to me.

 

Is it your contention then that those who don't want to see/ be present where bi/gay male activity is present should not go to swing clubs at all?

 

I have noticed you have not addressed the main point of those in support of the "rules", what is your solution to the fact that many Str8 men in attendance will no longer wish to have sex and will be apt to take their partners and leave?

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Would you similarly agree with a "no blacks" policy at a swing club if the majority of members didn't want blacks there?

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Would you similarly agree with a "no blacks" policy at a swing club if the majority of members didn't want blacks there?

 

We shall overcome...... we shall overcome......

 

If a club wants to have a no blacks rule, that's their issue.

 

We have clubs that only allow 'pretty people' already, if another one wants to use racial lines that's up to them.

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And don't forget the age issues. We have less then XX age only and also over XX age only as well, clubs here.

 

Private clubs cater to what the private membership wants.

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Would you similarly agree with a "no blacks" policy at a swing club if the majority of members didn't want blacks there?

Trust me they are out there and U know what blacks do about it? We don't go there! Listen why would I go swinging in a place where I'd obviously be uncomfortable AND turned off? Going to a swing club and abiding by their rules is not paying the same fare yet sitting in the back of the bus or paying the same price for food and being restricted on where you can eat.

 

Once again I notice you've refused to deal with the how your activity would turn off and drive away the str8 males and couples. Your solution seems to be to stick your fingers in your ear, recite "it's unfair, I can't hear you" as if somehow magically most str8 men won't head away from the clubs in droves if the actions you prefer were allowed. So I ask once AGAIN, what is your solution for the clubs when all those patrons no longer frequent them and/or what do you suggest for the str8 men and couples who will NOT want to be there? ( BTW the "grin and bear it" response isn't applicable becuz they will grimace and vacate... )

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I don't see why individuals should curtail their same-sex activity because they are in your presence. That's a very regal attitude you have, I'm afraid. If you don't like it, don't do it and don't watch it.

 

At the end of the day, I think swing clubs should allow both forms of homosexual activity, not just one. When only one is allowed, it reeks of hypocrisy.

 

WTF dude! Have you read anything here? You obviously do not have a grasp on free enterprise, the rights or preferences of those that pay to attend the clubs. If you don't like the policy, find another club. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

Would you similarly agree with a "no blacks" policy at a swing club if the majority of members didn't want blacks there?

 

Another completely idiotic statement. I don't think anything anybody could say will get through your one track mind. I posted previously and Chicup touched on it also. Who draws the line and what is it? Try thinking about that for minute.

 

Maybe you can spend your time on finding a place that caters to your wants if that is even possible.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "professions", but I don't think my posts had anything in them about what folks would "allow" their SO to do at all. It's all about what club clientele want to see or don't want to see. The question of what one spouse thinks is "normal" or acceptable is a subject for private negotiation and only slightly related to what is okay to do in front of a crowd.

 

If Mr. Fuse wanted to be with a guy, my only concern would be that STD's are more easily communicated via anal sex, so I'd make sure he knew I wanted him to be as safe as possible about it. I might even watch, even though it's not like a guy watching two women... I don't have a fantasy of jumping into the middle of two guys. But we'd go in a private room, out of deference for what others may not want to see. Simple as that.

 

About "true freedom"...In the end, we can't control each other and shouldn't want to do that. We can all do what we want to, ultimately. But I do think our desires and comfort levels should matter to each other. True freedom might be granted, but that doesn't mean our feelings don't have consequences. I think a balance is necessary. Freedom and responsibility are two sides of the same coin.

 

Well, I just looked it up to be sure. I saw that the 4th definition is for someone who professes something. I am a man, therefore I profess to be a man. Men and women have different "professions"...

 

I would like to see clubs advertise dances for bi-couples...just because it shows a certain sensitivity on the owners part. It would be a risk I suppose, and might alienate his regular clientele. Perhaps the OP would just like to know that there are places to go where MM activity is accepted. We surely shouldn't expect all private clubs to adhere to the same set of business guidelines.

 

Are you saying that transmission of a disease is more easily accomplished with a man than a woman through anal sex (or any other sexual activity)? I believe they would have about the same rates. :rolleyes::confused:

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As for social acceptance (in and out of the lifestyle) I read a study, but do not recall who did it or published it, that had this finding:

 

Most people are more accepting (and turned on by) female/female play because a woman can do nothing to another woman that a man doesn't do. Oral is performed the same, and the orifices that are entered are the same as those behaviors and practices of a man on a woman. However: The interaction of man/man play does bring a completely different level. A woman does not have the equipment (other than fingers) to insert into a man, and an anus, by nature, is designed to eliminate waste, not as a receptacle. This is why more people are offended by M/M play than F/F.

 

That being said: To each his own, We prefer not to see M/M, it is a turn-off for us. We are not being homophobic, we are following what we are turned on by. I have no interest in watching people play tennis, and do not want to play it either, but that does not mean that I am scared of tennis, it just means that I do not engage in that sport, nor do I watch it or choose to be in an area that it is played.

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As a rule male to female and male to male transmission rates are higher than female to male or female to female.

 

Being that male to male sort of 'doubles' the risk over male to female, thats where the easier spread of STD's come from.

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Are you saying that transmission of a disease is more easily accomplished with a man than a woman through anal sex (or any other sexual activity)? I believe they would have about the same rates.

 

They would...if the rate of STD-infected gay/bi males weren't so much higher than that of infected straight men and women. But all else being equal, if the odds of your partner during a given sexual activity are, for example, three times as high as another partner, so are your odds of contracting the disease.

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I have no interest in watching people play tennis, and do not want to play it either, but that does not mean that I am scared of tennis, it just means that I do not engage in that sport, nor do I watch it or choose to be in an area that it is played.

 

So I am willing to bet you do not go to Tennis clubs and try to get them to become Swingers clubs? :D

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A healthy bi man is no more or less risky than a healthy straight man. In both cases, the risk of catching a disease from them is zero.

 

As for the notion that there is an extra dimension to the male-male interaction that repels some people, keep in mind that many bi men do not perform anal sex but simply keep the bi aspect at the level of touching etc.

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A healthy bi man is no more or less risky than a healthy straight man. In both cases, the risk of catching a disease from them is zero.

 

Mmm-hmm. But the percentage of bi men that is disease-free is significantly smaller than the percentage of straight men that is disease-free. Thus, the odds of contracting diseases from a random bi male is higher.

 

I know you know that already, and are more concerned with diverting the discussion in a direction that supports your cause rather than actual statistics (which don't at all), but I thought I'd respond anyway. ;)

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BCinIN,

 

Where are your "significant" figures to support your statement that "the percentage of bi men that is disease-free is significantly smaller than the percentage of straight men that is disease-free"? I don't think you have any. Demonizing bi men through disease is the oldest trick in the book.

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A significant association was found between HIV seropositivity and a history of syphilis (P = .04); both were more frequent among homosexual/bisexual men than among heterosexual IVDUs.

 

Syphilis cases were more likely to be in gay or bisexual men, those with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection, those who had anonymous partners, and those who met sex partners on the Internet. Increases in sexual activity and sexual risk behavior in men who have sex with men during this period have been attributed to the improved physical health of HIV-infected men on highly active antiretroviral therapy, HIV treatment optimism, increases in methamphetamine use, and the use of Viagra.

 

Conclusion: The high prevalence of HIV in the black community

and the greater likelihood of bisexuality among

black men place heterosexual black women at risk for HIV

infection.

 

Syphilis Rates Soar in Gay and Bisexual Men

The Center for Disease Control and Prevention has issued a report that despite steady declines in syphilis rates among African Americans, women and babies between 1999 and 2004, overall numbers continued to rise driven by a dramatic jump in infections among gay and bisexual men.

 

Nearly two-thirds, or 64-percent, of all the new syphilis cases in 2004 were in men who had engaged in homosexual activity, according to the CDC. That same group made up just 5-percent of new infections in 1999, the report said.

 

Simple google search.

 

At any rate bisexual men do seem to have a greater % chance of having an STD. Of course no studies were done on male bisexual swingers, but just take your average bisexual male, you have a better chance of them having an STD.

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"bangdesk" mackie44 has no desire to deal in facts. He wants the world to be his way or no way. He has more then proven that in this thread.

 

There are many clubs in this world that welcome him and the way he wants things to be but until we all agree that all clubs are going to be the way he wants them he is not going to leave it alone.

 

:deadhorse:

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BCinIN,

 

Where are your "significant" figures to support your statement that "the percentage of bi men that is disease-free is significantly smaller than the percentage of straight men that is disease-free"? I don't think you have any. Demonizing bi men through disease is the oldest trick in the book.

Like Chicup said, a simple internet search will turn up plenty of documented statistics on this.

 

It isn't demonizing at all, it is just well documented fact, so much so that it is considered common knowledge. In fact, it is one of the few facts in the whole STD research world that is universally agreed upon.

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Puh-lease. Up to 7 years ago, syphilis was far more common in straights. Yet the swinging industry still had the same double standard in relation to homosexuality - ie. two hot chicks OK, two bi guys not OK. Face it - you supposedly open-minded guys are not so open-minded when it comes to male bisexuality. You have a HUGE hypocrisy problem.

 

Besides, I wouldn't have unprotected sex with anybody (gay, straight, bi) whose health status I wasn't confident in. Using disease to demonize gay/bi men is a poor excuse to justify your prejudice towards male bisexuals.

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Keep in mind that many swing clubs don't ban just male-male sexual intercourse, they also ban male-male touching. I don't see how you can catch anything from male-male touching. Face it - using disease to demonize gay/bi men is just another pathetic attempt to maintain the status quo in swinging. Thankfully many people are waking up to it and realizing that swinging is for prudes. Swingers are no longer at the vanguard of the hip and tolerant.

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Once again reverting to my earlier analogy. If you do not like it, don't go there. If I do not want to watch tennis I do not go to a tennis court because I know that is what will be played there. I will go to a golf course though. When I go to a golf course I do not insist that the people there carry a racket or big yellow balls. If you really want to play with men in a club setting: Go to a "gay club" that is what is expected there. It is very easy to bitch about people not accepting you in a situation where your chosen behavior is not the "norm".

 

(For those of you not paying close attention: Both of my sports analogies are pun intended. Golf (swing) Tennis (swing) and in the case of mackie44 maybe a backhand?)

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Puh-lease. Up to 7 years ago, syphilis was far more common in straights. Yet the swinging industry still had the same double standard in relation to homosexuality - ie. two hot chicks OK, two bi guys not OK. Face it - you supposedly open-minded guys are not so open-minded when it comes to male bisexuality. You have a HUGE hypocrisy problem.

 

Besides, I wouldn't have unprotected sex with anybody (gay, straight, bi) whose health status I wasn't confident in. Using disease to demonize gay/bi men is a poor excuse to justify your prejudice towards male bisexuals.

 

TBH you still miss the main point. The STD issue is more of a side thing, maybe its important to someone who is borderline bisexual but that's more of an individual reason, not a club reason.

 

The club reason is that most (and again I say most, not all) of us don't want to see it and wouldn't frequent a club that allows it. It is a business decision, or even a personal preference decision.

 

We are not swinging to be the vanguard of sexual freedom and expression, but because its something we enjoy.

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      He gently pushed the girl to one side, staggered to Wendy with his pants down by his feet, and said, "Well, you are hot; I could not believe how sexy you are. I am so proud of you; better than my wildest dreams was that fantastic to watch."

      Wendy thought to herself, "Why did I panic? This is fantastic, better than the fantasies we have. This is real sex."
       
      A couple came up to them. The man smiled. "I am Tommy. This is Raquel, my wife. We just watched you and nearly came with you. Would you join us at the table for a foursome?"
       
      Wendy reached down and felt his cock inside his pants. It was semi-hard and big. She turned to John and Raquel, "Let's get together. We can play here or in one of the smaller rooms with a nice bed?"

      They entered the room together. Wendy pushed down her long skirt and flipped off her top. She was naked except for her stockings and suspenders. Raquel slipped out of her long ball gown, revealing a very firm 36's and a sweet little tight arse on top of a pair of legs to die for. She was near perfect. Tommy was muscular with a flat hard six-pack stomach and an erection starting to grow to full size as he gently stroked himself. John was naked in a flash, only half erect after his escapade down the other girl's throat. Wendy turned to Tommy, who scooped her up in his arms and carried her over to the king-sized bed, his erect cock bouncing up and down as he stepped forward. Raquel reached out for John, smiled softly, and whispered, "Come and play with me and let me get you hard again. We will watch them while I regenerate your erection."

      John looked down at her fair perfection, those soft curves all running down into the valley between her legs. A golden pussy fuzz glinted in the soft lights. He reached for her and pulled her towards him. A first gentle kiss, lips opened up, and tongues tenderly searched each other out, exploring each other. His hands held her back, then softly slid down over her buttocks, caressing that incredible apple shape of her bottom. She pulled him harder into her body.

      As Raquel responded to the stimuli, her hand slid down to feel his penis, which was gently growing back to a man-size stiffness. Their kisses became more ardent, and deeper tongues were now demanding, not exploring. Hands moved over her body.

      John broke off the long kiss and searched her neck with his lips and tongue. She shuddered, and he felt her open her legs and move into his body. She thrust her pubis against his leg and started to move up and down. He could feel the wetness spreading along his thigh. John had now reached her breast with his lips and was attacking her nipple, which was bone hard. Raquel started to pant and squirm harder against his leg.

      Suddenly Raquel broke away and fell back onto the bed beside Tommy and Wendy's entwined bodies. Raquel reached up, and John dived onto her, gently landing without his weight on her. Raquel squirmed around so she was head-to-toe with him, with her on her back. Raquel reached up and grasped his nearly hard cock. She slipped her mouth over the head as she pulled back his tight foreskin and started to suck him to total hardness.

      John's head was between her legs. His mouth opened up her secret garden exploring the sides and little creases. He could tell her clit was begging for attention, and he made her wait. He felt careful with his tongue and could feel the hardness and swelling around her clit, which was now erect like a mini penis. His tongue explored her depths and penetrated her cunt, where he would follow with his cock shortly. Raquel was getting agitated and frustrated. She wanted attention on her clit, so John moved his tongue down the crease between her legs out of her cunt and down to her anus. As it reached the little rosebud, she shuddered and thrust her hips against his face.

      Raquel was working hard on making his cock whole again and hard enough to get inside her to ease that burning desire. She threw him over onto his back, climbed on top, grasped his penis in her hand, aimed for her inner lips, and squatted down with a satisfied sigh. John tried to thrust up against her downstrokes, and they found a comfortable rhythm that would gently build to a glorious climax.

      Tommy knelt beside John and Raquel with Wendy's legs over his shoulders, thrusting energetically into her pussy. Wendy's bottom hardly touched the bed as his cock shuttled in and out of her dripping pussy. Raquel leaned over and kissed him hard on his mouth while her fingers searched for Wendy's cunt. Wendy pushed her hand out to John, grasped his face, and pulled it over for a kiss. As the four fucked into each other's partners, the respective partners smiled and kissed each other. Raquel started to whimper like a small cat. Her eyes rolled up as she reached her first climax, and her face distorted. A moan escaped her lips. "Fuck it harder! Fuck it, my cunt is exploding. Ohhhhhhhhh!"

      Raquel collapsed in a heap on top of John. He rolled her off and crawled around to the other two. Tommy rolled Wendy off him, and she got onto all fours. John hit her from the rear straight into her cunt, deep and hard. She thrust back to meet him harder and faster. Tommy went for the face and slid his cock deep into her mouth, making her gag a little, setting a fast pace that could never last. Tommy grunted and exploded semen down her throat, pumping and pumping till he was spurting on empty. Wendy cried out and shuddered and shuddered as she lost it in a huge one. John followed a few thrusts later. With a sigh and a deep thrust, he unloaded inside Wendy.

      The three untangled themselves. John lay on his side facing Tommy, and Raquel rested against him, her head using his hips as a pillow. Tommy and Wendy took up a similar position facing them. Wendy was fascinated with Tommy's penis, which had shrunk to a little wrinkled sausage. She played with it tenderly, remembering how hard and energetic it had just been. John was exploring Raquel's inner sanctuary in a lazy, tender way.

      Raquel got up, poured four glasses of wine from a bottle on the side table, and brought them to the bed. They all sipped and chatted quietly, enjoying the aftermath of the passion. Wendy could feel a slippery liquid seeping out between her legs. She reflected on how wonderful the party had started and how much better real sex in a group was than watching and fantasizing.

      Wendy said, "John, I need to use the bathroom. I will be back shortly. Will you wait here for me?"

      "Of course, darling," he smiled and added. "Come back when you are ready!" She laughed and left the room.

      Three girls and two men burst in a few minutes later, laughing and jostling each other. "Can we use the bed or join you if you haven't finished?" one girl asked. "Sure, get on and join us," John replied with a smile.

      Each girl selected a mate and sidled up to him as bodies entwined and hands were everywhere. The scene changed from relaxed, easy caresses to hot passion. John was having trouble getting hard again so soon after the last session. One of the two guys noticed and put his head in his lap, sucking gently on his cock. The girls watched with rapt interest. John froze for a second. This had never happened before. Then he relaxed as he thought to himself Wendy does this to me all the time. I go down on her. She won't mind, so what's the problem? John laid back and started enjoying a new experience.

      Wendy walked naked through the large room towards the lady's bathroom, passing groups and couples in all types of contortions. One threesome had a man on all fours, the girl on his back legs wrapped around the guy on top as he fucked vigorously. Her head was bobbing about like a broken rag doll. The whimpers coming from her showed she was in fuck heaven. Wendy passed them and smiled. She could not believe how many different positions were being displayed.

      In the bathroom, a girl was sitting on the side where the washbasins were, legs wide open, washing out the fluids that had been pumped into her. She licked her fingers and said, "Yummy, don't you just love that salty taste? I just got too full after a big gangbang. I had eight inside me, one after the other. Some of the greedy buggers came back for seconds and thirds." Wendy asked, "How long did you do it for?" The girl said, "About an hour and a half. I am a bit sore now and need a rest to recover after coming so many times."

      Wendy left the bathroom and wandered down a corridor from the large room. She heard sounds from a room; she stopped and looked in through the open door. Nine men were around this one girl who was being fucked from behind by one with another in her mouth, and a few were by her head. She had a cock in each hand, and the others were masturbating around her. The guy in her pussy speeded up and pulled out, rubbing himself furiously. He spurted all over her bottom. Another took his place and speared her without ceremony pushing in and out of her sweet little pussy. He inserted a finger up her bottom, and she wriggled and cried out, "Fuck my arse as well!"

      The men pulled out and rolled her over. One climbed underneath. She sat on his cock and lay on his chest. Another pulled her cheeks apart, stretching her anus slightly open. He rubbed semen that had seeped from her pussy around her dark hole to ease his passage and penetrated her slowly. The other guys were in her mouth, between her breasts, anywhere they could get.

      Wendy watched the action, fascinated. This was what she had dreamed of in every fantasy. One of the guys with nowhere to fuck noticed her standing by the door and came over and said, "Join us, lovely. We would love to satisfy your desires and fuck you senseless."

      Wendy entered the room as if in a dream; her fantasy had finally come true. Three guys remained with the girl. The other six moved over to Wendy. She lay on her back, waiting for it to happen. A man's body leaned over her, his cock hard and erect, probing her face as he bent over her and probed her cunt with his tongue. She grasped that beautiful cock and sucked it to absolute hardness. Hands over her breasts, tongues in ears and around her neck, hands now everywhere. Her body had become one large erogenous zone. The tongue in her pussy was replaced with a very large cock which started slowly and stepped up as the rhythm became one for both.

      For the next hour, Wendy felt cocks in all her parts, fluids being pumped and splashed. Each orgasm she experienced lifted her higher and higher until she lapsed into oblivion and was gently laid to rest, covered in semen and a little sore from the multiple entries. One vague recollection towards the end was of two cocks inside her pussy together, stretching her and giving her a final massive orgasm. Wendy drifted on the edge of exhaustion, languishing in the euphoria of her greatest fantasy, a gangbang. She lay there with semen dripping from her pussy, running down the crease between her legs. She fingered her anus softly, rubbing in the slippery cream to ease the soreness. She felt wonderful.

      After half an hour, she got up and returned to the room where she had left John. She passed Mistral, Tim, Greg, and Susan on the way, heading upstairs. As they passed her, they smiled at her sticky legs and body, and one said, "You sure have had some fun, huh, Wendy?"

      She arrived at the room and stepped inside. John was entwined with another girl, and a guy gently probed him while the girl tried to get him hard again. Wendy watched her man and smiled to herself. "Now he knows what it feels like to be fucked up the arse. Once used to the stretching, it is yummy."

      Wendy called him, "Honey, will you shower and sauna with me? I need to clean up a bit?"

      "OK, babe, let's get showered and find where Tim and Mistral are," John replied. "They did promise us a special time together, but I haven't seen them tonight."

      Mistral took John to one side the next day at work and said, "I know you both enjoyed your first swinging party; sorry we never got together. Would you both like to join Susan, Greg, Tim, and me the weekend after next at our place for just a casual dinner and some fun?"

      "Sure, we would not miss it!" John quickly replied. Mistral said, "Greg told me he saw Wendy walking past him in stockings and suspenders. He said she has a fabulous body, her cunt dripping down her legs, and he wants to fuck her after dinner. You can have Susan and me together if you fancy. It will be a hot night!" With a wide grin, John quickly shot back, "How about six all together in the sauna then?"
       
    • By Mistral Wind
      My husband, Tim, met a new prospective client the other day, and an hour appointment went on for another three hours. Then Tim returned to the office glowing with excitement. "Hey, Mistral, the new clients want the Full Monty and more from us!"
       
      A few days later, I met Greg and Susan and found we had an immediate relationship with them both. Glen is a "go-getter" who has enormous energy and vision. He had just acquired three more companies and ran a group of four on a wide area network that needed our services. The questions flowed thick and fast at the meeting: "Can you do xxx for us? What about these services? How about getting the VPN up?" A gem of all clients had been discovered by accident through a conversation with a friend who put us together.
       
      Greg is a tall, dark, very fit 45-year-old with boundless energy and a very sharp, intelligent mind with a wacky sense of humor. Susan is a Nicole Kidman look-alike, red blonde hair, 5'2", pert small breasts with really pink nipples, and the greatest tight little butt I have ever seen. Her hair was shoulder-length curly and shone like spun red gold. Some women you meet and like from day one. We liked the same food and wine and laughed about some of her office's young, horny, and frustrated studs.
       
      Within three weeks of working almost every day with them both, a very positive relationship had started between us. I began to feel that Susan might be bi. She often sat close, and when we were going through my graphic designs, she would sometimes run her hand down my arm or touch my face gently when asking her searching questions. Her being a client, I was always careful not to respond in a sexual way just in case I had misread her. As the working days passed, the banter became more friendly and frank.
       
      After a few dinners and lunches, we were invited to their place for a relaxing weekend after getting most of the projects specified and starting to build. Their income was high, so we expected a nice place when we drove up. It was spectacular!
       
      Greg had said, "Well, it's a small mansion, built about 1795, Robert Adam style." Greg's idea of small contained seven bedrooms, a covered heated pool with a Sauna and Jacuzzi, and the garden had the cutest little Japanese Bonsai tree garden with a beautiful love seat.
       
      When we arrived Friday late afternoon, we just had time to briefly chill out with them doing "the tour." We were shown many large elegant rooms alongside some small intimate settings that would suit a pair of lovers. We met Jonathon, Greg's 21-year-old son, who had just finished University and would take a year off to explore the world. Jon is into falconry in a big way and owns three Harris Hawks: Brody, Bandit, Blackthorn, and a Peregrine Falcon called Blade. I spent an hour chatting with Jon about his birds. I quickly realized the Harris Hawks were an intelligent community-minded group that would work together to hunt their prey.
       
      Later that evening, Jon left to go to London for the weekend to be with his girl. When he left, he kissed Susan (stepmother), and to my eye, it lingered just a little too long. I raised my eyebrow, and she frankly stated, "Well, he is beautiful and half of my husband, so why not enjoy a younger version as well? Greg is pretty relaxed about it."
       
      The air took on a sexual tension that made me feel a little uneasy as we made it a policy not to play with clients, and this has an overtone that could get difficult. Susan and I chilled out before dinner with a swim in the pool and a sauna to finish off. She dropped her bikini on the floor and sat naked in front of me, completely relaxed. Her legs rested on the opposite seat, slightly open, revealing a beautiful smooth snatch. Susan caught me looking and made a show of 'accidentally' allowing her legs to open even more. Watching her outer lips peel stickily apart, I was tempted to reach out and touch but remembered Tim's words: "Don't play with clients!" Susan seemed to sense my conundrum but seemed willing to let things ride where they were...for now.
       
      Dinner passed pleasantly with a couple of bottles of red French Merlot. We all chatted intimately, getting close and closer together. Greg announced an early start as Tim was invited to hunt with Blade the Peregrine while we girls chilled out and enjoyed the morning. About midday, Greg and Tim returned empty-handed Greg said, "We are taking the hawks out. Several wild rabbits are around, which would be great for dinner tonight; grilled rabbit with bacon and garlic is yummy!"
       
      Later the "hunters" returned with three rabbits for the table and a couple for the Harris Hawks. Tim was in awe of the birds and said: "Babe, you should see them hunt together. They would make great Marines. They are intelligent, work well together, and the kills are lightning-fast. No rabbit suffered."
       
      "Time for a shower and a rest before we set up tonight," Tim suggested. So we slipped upstairs to our room and showered together. The shower was only big enough to get both inside and had a flexible pipe with a variable spray head. The naughty schoolboy in Tim surfaced, and he turned the shower onto pulse and started to work my breasts and nipples with the jet. I slid my soapy hands down onto his cock and worked it hard. Tim moved the shower between my legs, and I opened up for him. The jet started to bombard my clit. This was too much too quick, and I said, "Pack it up. That hurts."
       
      Tim settled down onto his knees and softly kissed her better. She responded quickly, and I pushed his face deeper into my crotch. The outer lips were gently opened, and his tongue probed for the inner lips teasing around my clit. I got impatient and rocked my hips into his face forcing his tongue onto my clit, demanding his attention. My legs spread apart of their own accord, and a hand crept around, caressing my bottom and making the cleft tingle with anticipation. As my pussy heated up and the waves started to build, that other hand was around my anus, caressing and probing the pink rosebud.
       
      As the first waves started to run through my body, a finger tickled and slid inside my arse. The orgasm exploding inside me was made more magnificent by the probing finger. The finger working deep in my bowel was enough to hit my "G" spot from the other passage. As I came down from the first shudders, the jet spray added its contribution, and I nearly passed out with pleasure. That brought on a multiple, and it kept coming and coming until I slumped against him.
       
      Tim dried me off, picked me up, and gently laid me on the bed. He dried himself and leaned over me. His cock was still hard. I lazily reached up, pulled him into my mouth, and sucked and sucked, working around the helmet just under the rim. He did not take long as he wanted a cum as much as the sucking. It exploded into my mouth, and I slurped it down, leaving about half on my tongue. Tim collapsed on the bed beside me, and we kissed, sharing the salty fluid he had deposited. "You minx! You are supposed to swallow that!" teased Tim. I shot back: "You know it turns you on tasting semen, so stop complaining."
       
      We both drifted into a deep sleep for a couple of hours. The house is very warm, so I put on a floaty dress and a white silk thong with a diamante glitter buckle at the back when I dressed. Tim smiled and said, "Babe, that does show off your bottom beautifully. I am enjoying their company. Susan has a great mind and body. What do you think of Greg?"
       
      Dodging his question, I asked my own. "Would you want to be inside Susan's pussy?" I asked, "Does she have fuckability?"
       
      "Oh yes, and more. But remember, this is not a swinging party; these are clients. We must be careful; a wrong move could mess things up big time."
       
      "Susan sort of hit on me in the sauna by 'accidentally' showing me her pussy," I admitted. "It's smooth and beautiful, and I could tell she was very wet."
       
      "Interesting," Tim said, "but it doesn't change the fact they are clients. Let's enjoy dinner. Come on; it must be time to go on down." I could tell, though, that my admission had hit home with Tim, and his stomach wouldn't be the only thing on his mind at dinner.
       
      The rabbit was fabulous, and we slowly munched our way through the various courses. Coffee and brandy followed, and we retreated into a smaller intimate family room with sofas, large seats, scattered cushions on the floor, and a big fireplace with a bright fire in the grate. Susan found a DVD, "Eyes Wide Shut," with Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise. Tim commented, "You look just like her, Susan."
       
      "She is a fine woman," Susan agreed. "I wish I had her bottom and her breasts. Watch the first scenes, and you get to see all of her. She is beautiful!"
       
      The film was remarkable, and we all watched it enthralled during the sex party scene in the large country house. The men in masks and long dark cloaks, women in cloaks, and other women wearing just about nothing. Couples fucking all over the furniture, and one girl was being done resting on the back of another man. A girl in the corner was being fucked doggy on a coffee table. I started to get wet. The film was deep, and the sex was great, although never construed as a porn film, much too delicate for that category. My pussy was alive, so I couldn't wait to get Tim back upstairs later. The movie finished, and Susan said, "That was the hot scene at the party. Wouldn't you love to join in and be one of them!"
       
      A careful silence was followed by Tim and me, which gained the retort from Susan. "You are swingers, aren't you? Otherwise, you would have said something about not sharing your wife!" I giggled, and Tim finally uncomfortably said: "Well, it takes all kinds of people with different attitudes to sex to make the world go around."
       
      Susan got up and walked out of the room. After a few minutes, she returned with a small basket of condoms and a collection of exciting toys. Susan smiled at me and said, "Mistral, let's give the boys a show. Then I will fuck Tim to a standstill as long as you are OK about it and want Greg!"
       
      "OK. I want to fuck Greg as much as he wants me. Same for you and Tim," was my husky reply. Suddenly, all the rules had gone out the window. Susan smiled and shrugged off her long dress, sliding it down to the floor, and she had nothing underneath. I got up and selected a toy from the basket, a rabbit dildo. I stepped out of my dress and knelt in front of Susan. She opened up her legs, and I switched on the vibrator, slid a finger inside a very wet slippery pussy, and pressed the toy to her clit.
       
      "My, we have been thinking rude thoughts this evening, hmmm?" I chided her. Susan said, "Well, the DVD certainly opened up the conversation. I tried to interest you in the sauna, and I saw the fuck-me look in your eyes but then got ignored. How come?"
       
      I ignored the question. "Get on the cushions. I want to open you right up and explore," I commanded. I worked slowly down Susan's body, tonguing every crevice. At the same time, the vibrator was held against her pussy without really trying to get inside. She rolled over onto her back, pulled me on top, slid off my thong, and peeled apart the lips of a very wet Mistral pussy. She arched her back to get her head between my legs, then slowly worked her tongue around my clit, just missing the most sensitive part: teasing, teasing! My head was between her legs sucking hard on her cunt, the vibrator discarded alongside us.
       
      Susan tasted and smelt divine, a cunt to die for, and we gently and slowly worked each other to a beautiful girly climax. I slid her clit between my lips and sucked gently, giving it all the attention it could take. Her bottom started to thrash about, and a muffled cry came from her as she exploded and released a dribble of pussy juice onto my face. Strong hands lifted us apart, and Greg sat me down on his lap, legs facing him. He kissed me gently, opened my mouth with his tongue, and started to probe my soul with his penetrating tongue. When those two had shed their clothes, I don't know!
       
      What I wanted was getting harder under my thigh and starting to poke up between my legs. My hand reached down and stroked the elegant cock, trying so hard to get inside me. Greg put on a condom and was ready for me. A thrust up then down onto it, and he was inside. I could not wait and would not wait. My hips thrust madly at him, exploring his cock and filling myself with pleasure. It must have only taken me 30 seconds to hit the first orgasm, and Greg was getting faster and faster until he exploded.
       
      We kissed and looked over at Tim and Susan. They were in a 69 with Susan sucking Tim hard and working her two fingers inside his anus. His balls tightened, and he emptied himself inside her mouth. She got up, came over, and kissed me deeply, sharing the contents of her mouth with me. Susan returned to Tim and started gently sucking him back to hardness again. Greg was working my bottom with his tongue, firm strokes working into the most private and sensitive area a woman has. I pulled him up and kissed him deeply, and again he shared the semen from Susan's mouth.
       
      Greg smiled and said, "OK, we all shared Tim. Would he enjoy sucking me?" I was a little unsure how Tim would react. Susan said, "He can't talk right now since his mouth is full of my pussy."
       
      Greg lifted me off him and walked over to the other two, kissed Susan, and then leaned over and lightly bit Tim's nipple, who, for a straight guy, relaxed and did nothing. Greg slowly worked down his body and started to get near his groin. Susan got up and thrust her pussy back into his face. Tim hungrily lapped at her while Greg took Tim's cock into his mouth.
       
      Tim started to push his hips at Greg, who was working the sensitive spots on his cock with expert reverence. I had never seen Tim with a man before, and it fascinated me to see how he responded to a man's attention. Tim gently pulled Greg around so they were 69 together and opened his mouth to get Greg's cock down his throat.
       
      Susan had slid behind me and worked one of the toys into my pussy. A little finger was up my arse, and the big rabbit worked magic inside me. I watched, fascinated, while the two men ground their cocks into each other's mouths, sucking and mouth fucking together. I could reach Greg's anus from where I was crouching, and I slid a finger inside, feeling for his prostate. I found the firm nut I was after and massaged it, bringing him to a rapid spunk explosion. When he started, I worked the prostate harder, milking the orgasm to its absolute. Tim was greedily swallowing all that Greg could deliver. Tim's hips began to shudder as he succumbed to Greg's tongue and spurted his load down his throat.
       
      The guys then got up and came over and kissed us. Greg pushed a quantity of spunk down my throat while Tim probed Susan's mouth. For the rest of the night, we moved upstairs to a large bedroom with a king-sized double that could sleep six without trouble. We swapped, we fucked, we cuddled and rested, then swapped, fucked, and cuddled some more, eventually falling asleep around 5 a.m.
       
      I awoke around 7:00, needing a drink. As no one else was around, I walked naked downstairs to get some orange juice. Halfway down the stairs, Jon appeared with a smile and a naked girlfriend beside him. "Hello, we returned late last night and realized you guys were having fun."
       
      Penny, Jon's girlfriend, said, "Come into this room. We had a camera in the large bedroom and watched you all together. What a turn-on!"
       
      I followed them in with dread, not knowing what to expect. Jon said, "Don't look so worried. We enjoyed the performance and wanted to share some of it with you."
       
      As I looked at the display, the threesome on the screen was waking up, and Susan was fondling both men. Penny said, "I often watch Greg and Susan's swinging parties here, and we fuck like bunnies while we watch. I enjoyed a threesome with Jon and his stepmother. What was Greg like? I haven't had him yet?" I just stood there, mouth open in shock, unable to speak.
       
      Jon pushed me gently onto the bed and started caressing my body while Penny approached the other side. Jon gently sucked my nipples while Penny's tongue delicately explored my womanhood. "We want to fuck you properly, Mistral, but I know your pussy must be sore from last night, so we'll stick with our tongues this time, OK?"
       
      After a few minutes of light sex, Penny said, "We better slip away quietly as we are not supposed to be here. Are you two coming to next weekend's party?" The feeling of this beautiful young feminine creature's tongue still fresh on my mind, I shot back, "You bet. If we are invited."
       
      "Oh, I expect you shall be," Penny smiled. She gazed into my eyes, dropped her hand between her legs, and worked a finger deep into herself. "Until next time...," she said, trailing her finger, wet with her secretions and Jon's cum, stickily across my cheek before resting it on my lips. An invitation which I readily obliged by opening my mouth. Her long finger worked around my tongue, gifting me the taste of her and her lover.
       
      I slipped upstairs and joined the frolicking three on the bed for more and more of what my body desired. Eventually, we fell asleep again and woke around 3 p.m. feeling completely satisfied and sexually drained. A shower and a good cleanup refreshed my body and spirit. Tim and I were due to leave soon, and Susan came to me and said, "You must come to our next weekend party. Please say yes. If you like, bring some friends that will enjoy what you two have this weekend. There is so much more I want to do with you and Tim. We have had a fantastic time."

      On the way home, Tim said solemnly: "You realize that the weekend could have gone dreadfully wrong if it was a trap. We were caught out, well nearly!"

      The following weekend swinger party is another edition of this story…
    • By NerdsAreFun
      Some stats on the swinging world.  Interesting that a slim majority (50.2%) of men now identify as bi.  65.8% in the 18-39 age group.  I think the days of that being a closeted thing in the swinger world are coming to an end.  Also surprised me that 80.5% were soft swap only.
      https://swingershelp.com/swinger-survey-results-2022/
       
       
      And they also provide a list of most popular swinging sites in various cities.
      https://swingershelp.com/popular-swinging-dating-sites/
    • By Erotics
      I'm as straight as an arrow and never even looked at another man in a sexual way. We play as a couple and have had regular 3somes (mfm) which she thoroughly enjoy. The focus is always on her, giving her pleasure and making sure she is having fun.
       
      Recently we were in a 3some with this gent and while we were playing (foreplay) he asked me whether I have ever been touched by or touch another man myself. The answer was no.
       
      He then dared me to touch him, which I then proceeded to do. Funny enough, it was not so weird as I thought it would be and although it felt strange, at the same time it felt familiar.
       
      I then proceeded to keep his dick in my hand and point it towards her mouth while she was blowing him. He did the same with me while she was blowing me later.
       
      Suddenly it was not strange anymore and I even guided his cock into her pussy later on. It all felt so natural in the situation. Fun was had by all 3 of us and it did not gross me out or even the wife.
       
      We (me and wife) had a discussion afterwards and she said she found it actually very kinky and she would like to see me in a male-male experience. Ever since it has been playing in my head and I don't know what to think.
       
      Touching is one thing, but actually going down on someone is something totally different (or is it not?)
       
      Although I still don't look at men in a sexual way, I found myself thinking about this a lot. A part of me says don't do it, you don't find men sexually attractive, but a part of my tell me to not to knock it and try it at least once and then make up my mind.
       
      The wife said that she became bisexual by also experimenting and only later become attracted to females as she became accustomed to the situation.
       
      Do you think I should proceed and experiment?
       
      I don't think I have the guts to take a cock in my mouth and suck it, but a part of me tells me I have the guts and should go ahead. I know it would be big visual turn-on for the wife and I would do anything to turn her on...just not sure about sucking a cock to turn her on. LOL
       
      To be honest, I'm very nervous.
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