Any Men Whose Wives Refuse to Even Consider Swinging?

DKent · June 27, 2007

OK, this is not as much for seeking advice (although I'm sure I'll get plenty!) as to commiserate with other husbands whose vanilla-minded wives simply will not even entertain the notion of swinging or anything beyond the realm of monogamous sex.

I know very well that swinging must be totally mutual between both spouses for it to be a positive experience. My motivation here is to enhance our fairly decent sex life. We're 52 and 50, married almost 28 years, two kids, our own business, and a great relationship. She's rather conservative, very modest.

I've always had a much greater sex drive than her and a need for more "out there" sex. I have indeed cheated on her our entire lives together, having many affairs, one-night stands, liaisons on business trips, even bisexual experiences. I've enjoyed it all, and have been immensely careful not to leave any clues or slip up, and she has no idea about my "other" life.

I truly love my wife dearly. She is still very sensuous and attractive, and I've taught her a few new things over the years, like enjoying the use of toys, and how to squirt.

Truth is, I do not have any guilt regarding my infidelity, but I'm tired of it. Too much effort and time wasted setting up secret rendezvous, etc. I want to experience the pleasures of non-monogamous sex WITH my lady by my side; I want to share it with her and not have to deceive her anymore.

I pondered it for months, studied the lifestyle, did voluminous research on the topic. I finally dropped the bomb on her on (of all days, you idiot!) Mother's Day! She exploded. No, she imploded. Whatever, it was the most shocking, terrifying thing to ever happen to her in our relationship - she thought the dream was over. She was so scared, hurt, confused, repulsed. I finally had to backpedal and try to talk to her rationally and we went to marriage counseling only two days later (at MY behest, not hers!). I needed to be able to talk to her via the third party there. I needed to ease her pain. Anyway, things went well there, and we opened a new line of communication. She never suspected I was so...sexual..so kinky. This man she'd known almost all her life was different now in a way, and it still leaves her a bit muddled and confused.

She tried to learn what the attraction is. She even looked online at various swinger's sites, the Freedom Acres site, etc. She wanted to know what her man was interested in doing. She couldn't agree with any of the positives all you folks were preaching. She did suggest she might go to a club just for me, to "get it out of my system" , but she'll sit in the bar and interact with no one...maybe go back to the car if it's too much. What fun.

We've rarely watched porn; she has no interest in seeing other people having sex and it doesn't arouse her (so much for same-room sex). She doesn't have any fantasies about having sex with other people. She doesn't talk dirty and the word "fuck" is almost impossible to pry out of her mouth.

We do have reservations at the Terra Cotta Inn in Palm Springs in early November. It's a clothing optional resort and I hope she'll become a bit more comfortable around naked people. She's agreed to go but made it clear she intends to remain clothed. I told her that's fine. I'll be naked. I appreciate her even going with me.

Anyway, I wonder if there are other men on here with equally hopeless situations. I've all but resigned myself to the fact that I'll never get to indulge in that forbidden pleasure of outside sex WITH my wife there, enjoying it with me. It is deeply disappointing, and I like to believe that somehow, someday, she might come around on her own. But not too likely.

Comments? How do you handle this? Do you keep pressing? Did you give up?

Why exactly are you here reading the forum like me?

June 27, 2007

Obviously you are not "the only one". My 44 yr old wife and mother of 3 will never swing. Its not in her nature, she isn't wired that way, she has no fantasies and is absolutely not interested in doing anything beyond what she has become accustomed to: 3 positions, no oral either giving or receiving, no anal, no toys, no fantasies, blah blah blah. Yes I have tried over the 17 years (15 married this year).

On a "sexually minded" scale of 1-10, she would be a 3, I would be an 8. I think about it all the time. She could take it or leave it. I have repressed my sexual needs and desires for many many years, resorting to porn and my own fantasies in "personal time". Fortunately, I have never cheated - that is something that is not in MY nature.

I have had deep, personal, private communications with several great members of this board. One is not a swinger, and has decided to remain that way. One was not a swinger, but became one after our chats. Another is not a swinger, but is seriously considering it. All of them gave great insightful advice, and it was very comforting to share stories and feelings regarding swinging and just sexual issues in general.

But bottom line, it's just not gonna happen, and I have learned to deal with it.

Given the nature of this board, its not surprising to think that swinging is either "fairly common" or that it will be "just a matter of time" before your wife comes around if you just plant the seed. Maybe, maybe not, I've only had one wife from which to glean experience, so what do I know? All I know is that in my case, in her own words "Not gonna happen, babe". Oh yeah, one more thing I know is that virgins and Catholic school girls are both, in my humble opinion, highly over-rated.

And why do I read this board? Its entertaining, it is voyeuristic. I like to hear about the lives of the rich and famous too, but I'll never be one of them. And every now and then, I do feel qualified to voice an opinion and see where I stand among the more sexually experienced.

So that's my story. You are unique as is everyone else, but you are not alone. I'm purely guessing, but I'd think that for every "conversion" there are 100 "are you nuts?" responses from wives/husbands who will never swing.

Who keeps the stats on the % of swingers in the country anyway. I'd like to read that report.

celtic239 · June 27, 2007

My wife and I are in our 50's and been married for 26 years. Like you I have done a lot of research on the web concerning the lifestyle. I've never had an affair/one night stand or any other liaison during our time married. The fascination with the lifestyle is that I thought it would be something we could both enjoy. In order to spice things up and introduce her to the lifestyle we have gone on two vacations to Desire in Mexico (a clothing optional resort). She is becoming more comfortable being around naked adults in a sexual charged atmosphere, but she still doesn't like the in your face conduct.

In your case if your Mrs didn't care about your 'indiscretions' then you may want to visit one of the Hedo resorts in Jamaica where there are both singles and couples (Desires is a couples only resort). In this way you may find someone to play with even if your wife doesn't want to get involved.

I believe that the lifestyle, in its truest form, is a couples activity, so unless the wife agrees to play then it just won't happen. That doesn't mean that we will stop going to clothing optional resorts and hitting the hot tub.

tribbles · June 27, 2007

celtic, why not take you wife to the adult clothing optional but no open sex resorts?

It's what DKent found. Look at American Association for Nude Recreation, maybe some are in your area. I know there are good ones here in SoCal

D, stay away from the hot tub after 10 pm is what I heard.

socolais · June 27, 2007

A year ago, my story would have sounded similar. I don't know if it's good advice or even if I should say it out loud for fear of sounding insincere, but it worked for me: Go have "honeymoon sex" with your wife and tell her you've been reading a swinger's forum and thought about how much you enjoy giving her a good time. Between boinks, brush up on your salesmanship skills (what's in it for her).

VegasLee · June 27, 2007

Let her read this thread you posted. I am sure she will be happy with her life and do anything you want after seeing what you said here.

Alura · June 28, 2007

There must be a lot of men whose wives refuse to even consider swinging. Hell, judging from the questions often asked on this board, most men are afraid to even ask their wives what they think of the idea.

If a couple can't communicate without fear, it's very unlikely that swinging will ever be a part of their adventures together.

Communicate first. Swing later.

sexcupid · June 28, 2007

DKent said:

Comments? How do you handle this? Do you keep pressing? Did you give up? Why exactly are you here reading the forum like me?

I am here reading the forum because it's informational and there are others out there that have dealt or are dealing with the same types of things that we are.

There are things that my SO keeps bringing to the table at times and it irks me. Because it does seem like I'm being pressured and if my answers change then he will be informed.

And just to copy from your reply to a comment I made on your other post:

DKent said:

Good point about her not being into swinging. I'd never want to jeopardize a wonderful marriage for the forbidden fruit of swinging....she is too beautiful and special a person and I'm still deeply in love with her! - DK

Honey, you have already jeopardized your wonderful marriage...do you plan on informing her of your activities while in therapy? If for the last 28 years you have been going behind her back to get your kicks, one of these days she's bound to find out. Or she may already know/suspect (intuition has a way of cluing you in...you may not know how or what, but you know it's something) and is waiting for you to come clean.

There are times in life where you can't always have your cake and eat it too. She is willing to go to the nudist resort, and that is apparently out of character for her, be happy that on some level she is trying to do something to please you that is way out of her normal comfort zone.

Good luck,

Maria

Chicup · June 28, 2007

DKent - Without getting into too much detail or being too judgmental, the core problem as I see it, is you approached from a selfish, what you want, standpoint and not what she wants.

The fact that you blindsided your wife with it, also shows you really don't understand what makes her tick. If you don't know how your wife will react to something after all these years you aren't paying attention.

StacyCat · June 28, 2007

I think Chicup hit it dead on. This entire post was selfish, all about what *you* wanted. You were even tired of cheating on her!

If fucking other people is that big of a deal to you, then get a divorce and do it honestly. Your wife has made no indication that she will ever be comfortable with this, and yet you continue to ask her to do things that will be more and more uncomfortable for her.

Grow up. Oh, and make sure you get a full panel STD test, those would be really hard to explain away.

TNT · June 28, 2007

DKent said:

I've always had a much greater sex drive than her and a need for more "out there" sex. I have indeed cheated on her our entire lives together, having many affairs, one-night stands, liaisons on business trips, even bisexual experiences. I've enjoyed it all, and have been immensely careful not to leave any clues or slip up, and she has no idea about my "other" life.

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I truly love my wife dearly.

Really???

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She never suspected I was so...sexual..so kinky. This man she'd known almost all her life was different now in a way, and it still leaves her a bit muddled and confused.

Who's fault is that? People only know what a person is willing to reveal about themselves. For 28 years you kept things/parts of yourself from your wife. Now you're shocked she's scared, hurt and confused? I'd say you're pretty damn lucky she's taking it as well as she is. After all...

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She tried to learn what the attraction is. She even looked online at various swinger's sites, the Freedom Acres site, etc. She wanted to know what her man was interested in doing.

She's trying to understand you....are you trying to understand her?

Quote

She did suggest she might go to a club just for me, to "get it out of my system" , but she'll sit in the bar and interact with no one...maybe go back to the car if it's too much. What fun.

Doesn't sound like you are to me.

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Truth is, I do not have any guilt regarding my infidelity, but I'm tired of it. Too much effort and time wasted setting up secret rendezvous, etc.

Had you put the same time and effort (that you now say was wasted time) into your relationship from the beginning, you might not be in the situation you now find yourself in.

People and relationships do change over time but...you're asking your wife to change EVERYTHING she has believed for 28 years overnight and, from what you've posted it doesn't seem like you're being very patient about it either. You want what you want and you want it now....so not cool. Not to mention....you're still not being honest with your wife...have you disclosed your numerous affairs to her?

Quote

Anyway, I wonder if there are other men on here with equally hopeless situations. I've all but resigned myself to the fact that I'll never get to indulge in that forbidden pleasure of outside sex WITH my wife there, enjoying it with me. It is deeply disappointing, and I like to believe that somehow, someday, she might come around on her own. But not too likely.
Comments? How do you handle this? Do you keep pressing? Did you give up?

Why exactly are you here reading the forum like me?

Yes, there are numerous men who find themselves in the same situation as you...basically because they don't open their mouths and TALK to their wives...when the thought first comes to their mind. Instead, they wait years and indulge in their secret fantasies alone never trusting in the one person, that they should be able to trust above all others, to maybe understand. Sometimes it works out...sometimes a wife can't get over being lied to for years and sometimes even those who do talk to their wife from the first thought find that it's just not something that their wife wants to do.

Swinging is NOT for everyone.

Teresa

Gr8dad2 · June 28, 2007

Ok here goes... Been married 32, almost 33 years. We got started with our maid of honor for our wedding and progressed through 3-somes both MFM and FMF, and even a couple swap with at least three other couples. I was in heaven, she was the hottie of my dreams everything was perfect.

But, one bad encounter and to this day I am not sure what specifically did it, she said that's, it no more. I have asked many times what happened but to no avail. The answer now is no way in hell, and in fact she keeps getting more and more conservative and less and less interested in any sex

So where does that leave me? Well over the years I have had to attempt outside activity alone which is very difficult since most swingers look at married guys alone as "dirty cheaters" and don't really want to hook up with them, but the search goes on, finding a lady here and there that wants to enjoy life as much as I do. But single ladies want more than us married guys can give. Thank God for the internet and we can fill our lives with pics and vids of others doing what I used to and for friends I have met and are understanding of how I feel and think and not look down on a lonely old pervert (I will be a dirty old man until I am a dead old man).

I have a wonderful lady friend that is 2500 miles away from me that we are so attuned to each other. Our lives are so similar, just reversed with her husband being the vanilla person. We share a lot. We talk constantly, we share pics, we cam. We give what we can to make the other happy and yet we know the chance of us getting together is very remote. I do adore her for all she has given to me, and I know I have made her happier in her life. But I still wish and want that physical attention that requires somebody close to touch and feel and please... and maybe if I keep looking I will find that person and I WILL keep looking until forever. So if anybody in the Philly area wants to talk or have a serious friend with benefits... let me know. good luck to all

DKent · June 28, 2007

Great responses - thank you all, even those who bashed me for being a selfish pig, which I do not believe I am.

First of all, Bill, your wife sounds even more conservative than mine! Mine at least enjoys having oral performed on her, will do oral on me but not let me cum in her mouth, and she does anal, and we enjoy toys...so I guess whenever you think you've got it "bad", someone has it worse! Sorry, buddy.

Celtic - My Mrs. doesn't know anything about my "indiscretions" and I have no intentions of telling her! It would do nothing positive or productive. I am looking forward to going to the clothing optional resort with her later this year....even if she chooses to wear a parka, ski cap, galoshes and mittens in the Palm Springs sunshine! I'll just be happy that she's even there with me, indulging her "perverted" hubby in his silly sexual follies.

Socolais, so, what you're saying is that you actually, successfully convinced your wife to swing in the space of one year? Please elaborate! What did you do or say, how did you do it, what were her reactions, and what was the process like? Your first experience?

Vegas Lee - thanks, I know what you mean, but I'd have to edit out the parts about cheating on her for 28 years, as that won't go over well, even if I said I didn't want to do it anymore! I do tell her all the time how much I love her and am still turned on by her...

Maria - Yes, I know and agree and I've been careful - she doesn't suspect anything and I've never chosen to visit another woman instead of being with her for any reason. I only plan meetings when she is busy or away somewhere. I've never neglected my family or put my secret playtime above time with them. I've been a terrific husband and father. Maybe we men are just able to compartmentalize these things more than women...

Chicup - I do not feel I've been selfish - I truly want to share the joys of swinging with my wife! But if she would get no joy from it, and only go through the motions, I'd not enjoy it myself. It needs to be mutual! But yes, I definitely blindsided her with a concept I had been rolling around in my head for months. I felt like an idiot, thinking her reaction might be any different than it was! I was obviously obsessed with the idea and my mind crazed with the drug of pent-up lust! Running that day over in my mind now, it was totally out of my character and apparently, totally ignoring the likelihood of it blowing up in my face. But you know the old saying, "break an egg...make an omelet"? Well, after all was said and done, she is dressing a bit more feminine and being more creative in bed and open to trying new things...like the CO resort. So in the end, this might have been the breakthrough we needed to pull our sex life out of the doldrums.

TNT - Agreed, I tried to do too much, too fast. Like I said above to Chicup, I wasn't thinking rationally at all. I only thought I was! And yes, you are correct, as much as I want to think otherwise, swinging is not for everyone! The fact I'm reading all these forums and looking at pictures and immersing myself in this world from the outside, it distorts reality and makes guy like me begin to believe that swinging is "normal", "common", and far more widespread than the vanilla world would imagine. Truth is, it is a fairly exclusive and specialized community, and like a new religion, cult, or political party, it's nearly impossible to bring someone into it from the outside and have them embrace it with open arms. You either have the predisposition for the lifestyle and its requirements (a lack of modesty bordering on exhibitionism, a desire or willingness to have multiple sex partners, and a highly flexible mindset regarding long-held social mores and moral standards) or you do not.

GR8DAD2 - Ok, so you started out on the road to long-term swinging...I can imagine what a dream cum true it was - and then something happened. How could you not recall or be cognizant of something so objectionable in one encounter that it totally turned off your already swinging and open-minded wife? It had to be some pretty awful....and you never knew what it was? This needs a bit of explaining...

VegasLee · June 28, 2007

Of course you would have to edit what you wrote here if there was any chance your wife would see. You don't want her to know the truth about the man she has been married to all these years. The Truth would set you FREE! She would have your bags packed before you could turn off the computer if she really knew the man that she is married to.

You went to counseling yet you did not tell the truth there either. They can not help a relationship when they only have part of the facts. You went to save yourself and for no other reason.

You keep posting here hoping to feel better about what you have done to this women for so many years. Hoping that someone will say just the right thing to make her come around and be what you want her to be.

Actions speak louder then words. You tell her anything you want so that she will be happy with you but you have done nothing but lie and cheat on her from the start by your own admission.

Of course you don't see your self as the lying cheating dog that you are, you don't want to see that in yourself. You want your wife to love you for the person you are not to her and hope that she will be something she has no desire in being.

Keep making any and all excuses you desire to make and keep posting them, it does not change the FACTS of who you are and what you have done to your wife.

Go ahead, let her read this thread and let her tell me I am wrong. Nothing you can say could possibly give me a different view of who and what you are and I am betting this thread will give your wife a totally different view of who you are though.

Relationships should be based on Truth. Something that would be a totally new concept to you. Have the guts for once in your life to let your Wife be the judge of who and what you are!

applevenus · June 28, 2007

Wow. Such judgements being made based on words that were written by someone who is trying to open up.

I've been reading this board for a couple of years now. Yes it's been voyeuristic but I've been trying to learn.

I've read many posts by some of the people who have responded to DKent and I'm frankly disappointed. Some of you need to take a good look at yourselves condemning this man. When one of you is sure that you're perfect and you've never done anything wrong then perhaps you can condemn him.

DKent I can understand why you've done what you've done and I understand your frustration. I *don't* think you're being selfish I think you are expressing what you believe you need and you've clearly understood that you can't find it where you looked in the past. How dare you express and try to be open eh ?

Good luck DKent.

VegasLee · June 28, 2007

Wow. Such judgements being made based on words that were written by someone who is trying to open up.

Yes, he wants to open up to everyone except the only one that counts. His Wife.

He can not tell her the truth about what he has done to her their whole married life.

Spoomonkey · June 28, 2007

applevenus said:

How dare you express and try to be open eh ?

Being open takes a bit of courage - the courage to make yourself vulnerable to unvarnished truth. The truth is, he isn't going to swing because his marriage lacks a couple of things - communication and trust. Without those, none of us would be swinging...

I communicate with my wife - and she knows that she can trust me and my motivations to swing. If she didn't know what was going on in my head - and had to worry about what MIGHT be going on in my head - we'd be the typical American tragedy that is called marriage - and I might be right here, "aw-shucks-in'" with the rest of you guys.

He wanted to vent about his inability to coerce his wife into swinging - though as TNT pointed out, she's given it a lot more effort than many wives would. If he expected us to applaud his honesty - the honesty that he is basically shitting on a pretty good woman from the way he describes her - then he understands less about swinging couples than he thinks he does. As do you, applevenus.

Cheaters get little, if any, sympathy here because cheating is completely opposite of swinging. Yes - being a swinger doesn't make your marriage perfect or "above reproach", but the basics to "doing it right" are the kind of things that can make any marriage - even the most vanilla - exciting and strong. So - stop being surprised and offended if we don't have a lot of pity for guys who aren't doing the "hard work" of valuing their marriage - and then come here wondering what went wrong...

DKent · June 28, 2007

OK, Spoomonkey and other rock-throwers, I've got to stand up here and defend myself. I've never done anything "to" my wife all these years but be a wonderful, loving, supportive husband to her. She's never known one iota of my "other" activites and I've gone to great efforts to assure she never does or will. So I've never even hurt her - not until I opened up to her and divulged my interest in swinging, that is! Ahhhh, openness, honesty. "No good deed goes unpunished", as they say.

You think me opening up and revealing that I was deceiving her all these years would be good for our relationship? What planet are YOU from, buddy? Even Ann Landers would have laughed her ass off at that suggestion!

As for you righteous swingers out there so condemning "cheating' - yeah, it's easy to say for you, since your wife is one of those rare ones who will participate in the lifestyle and therefore, obviating the need to get that variety in your sexlife you so freely enjoy. And variety is a big part of the joy of swinging, whether you admit it or not. You're lucky, not necessarily good.

I would guess that, if you took all the swinging couples out there and the wives suddenly reverted (or never were converted to swinging in the first place) to vanilla, at least half the men would end up getting their variety in extramarital activities. But you're safely in a place where you can deny that and lord your condemnation over us "cheaters".

VegasLee · June 28, 2007

Dkent,

You know what, all of us here are nothing more than a pixel on the Internet to you. What we think and say means nothing at all to you.

The only opinion that should mean anything in your life is that of your wife but honestly, her opinion only means something if she knows the truth.

Your right, if she knew the truth about what you have done since you two have been together you would be gone in a minute. She would move on and find someone that hopefully would be fully honest with her in the relationship that she is in.

You don't want to admit it but you have done something to her over the years. You have deceived her as to the man you really are and you have not been truthful with her. That does not appear to matter to you. So be it.

Don't come here expecting any of us to agree that you have been good for your relationship or wife by keeping her in the dark about who you are.

We are nothing to you just as honesty is nothing to you when it comes to your relationship with your wife.

Good luck to you and I hope that you find all your looking for.

The Fuse · June 28, 2007

DKent said:

OK, Spoomonkey and other rock-throwers, I've got to stand up here and defend myself. I've never done anything "to" my wife all these years but be a wonderful, loving, supportive husband to her. She's never known one iota of my "other" activites and I've gone to great efforts to assure she never does or will. So I've never even hurt her - not until I opened up to her and divulged my interest in swinging, that is! Ahhhh, openness, honesty. "No good deed goes unpunished", as they say.

You act as if you are entitled to sexual variety. You're not. None of us are entitled to it after we make a commitment to one person. You write as if what you've done is okay because she doesn't know about it, that of course you're going to get "your" variety. Going behind her back does not make you a wonderful, loving supportive husband. People are throwing rocks at you because you don't seem to realize that.

You act as if the only obstacle to getting your variety is making sure she doesn't find out! That's not the only obstacle. Your commitment to her as a husband is the obstacle. Your sense of entitlement is blotting out that reality.

DKent said:

You think me opening up and revealing that I was deceiving her all these years would be good for our relationship? What planet are YOU from, buddy? Even Ann Landers would have laughed her ass off at that suggestion!

Ann Landers might laugh her ass off, but that's only because you have already cheated repeatedly. If you hadn't, she would tell you you shouldn't. Just because the truth would hurt her doesn't it okay to cheat and then hide it.

DKent said:

As for you righteous swingers out there so condemning "cheating' - yeah, it's easy to say for you, since your wife is one of those rare ones who will participate in the lifestyle and therefore, obviating the need to get that variety in your sex life you so freely enjoy. And variety is a big part of the joy of swinging, whether you admit it or not. You're lucky, not necessarily good.

Your phrase "the need to get that variety" shows again that you feel like this variety is your right. You feel that her expectation of your fidelity is somehow the problem. We're here to set you straight on that one.

As for whether we're righteous, well, maybe we are a little. But that doesn't mean we're not right. Not only that, but we're discussing your situation, not our luck or virtue.

But now I will discuss our luck and virtue by saying if you've read much here, it should be apparent to you that we don't just have the good fortune of open-minded wives and husbands. We have the results of the hard, honest work of open communication between ourselves. That shows we're both lucky and good.

DKent said:

I would guess that, if you took all the swinging couples out there and the wives suddenly reverted (or never were converted to swinging in the first place) to vanilla, at least half the men would end up getting their variety in extramarital activities. But you're safely in a place where you can deny that and lord your condemnation over us "cheaters".

You're trying to justify your actions by saying we'd do it too. You shouldn't worry about what we would or wouldn't do, just about your own situation. Your situation is that you've done wrong by her, hidden it, and now are hoping to get her to swing. I suggest you do what you can to make her happy from here on in, encourage stretching her comfort zone, and always put her needs first. If you do this, you may not get to swing, but you should both be happier. You can't do anything about the past, but you can change your future. Good luck.

DKent · June 28, 2007

I never said I was entitled to sexual variety - I just wished for it as much as most of you. But I've found my wife isn't like your wives. And telling me I'm bad because I cheated on her, gimme a break! I'm not saying it was ever a noble thing I was doing, or even right! But I did say I no longer wish to do so, and want to share every aspect of my sexual life with her, and have realized she isn't interested in going to those extremes. I guess that's a bit hard to comprehend when your wife says "yes" and all the rest of ours say "no". You truly do not understand until you walk in my shoes.

Spoomonkey states that "because my marriage is not based upon trust and communication" (which isn't so, but I won't start that thread), we'll never be swingers! So, in other words, every couple who are completely open, trusting, communicate perfectly, etc., CAN swing? Absolute malarkey!

I've done a lot of research into the subject - not just on this forum, but talking to "real live" swingers as well - particularly the distaff half - to fully understand the lifestyle, its pros and cons, its benefits and risks, and how it is managed from within and without. I feel I know an awful lot about it now (except how it actually feels)....and I've come up with a hypothesis:

It's true, it's absolutely true: Men ARE from Mars and Women ARE from Venus. They are different - VERY different! In outlook, needs, perceptions, flexibility, etc. However, in my comprehensive research recently, I've discovered that SOME women are from Mars too - and those are the ones who are able to swing!

They have more the male POV than the typical female one - more open to personal exposure, exhibitionism, mate-swapping, non-monogamous (non-romantic) sex, etc. All those obstacles to swinging that most wives exhibit.

And THAT might be it in a nutshell. The typical woman won't and cannot swing - those who can are a rarity of the first order. My wife is typical Venusian, I believe...

And for any of you listening, I love her, appreciate her for who she is, and have explored her limits and now know that this is a place we're not going. It took this session of "communicating" with her for me to know this - otherwise, like too many other husbands - that question would go unasked all our lives and I'd never know: "will she or won't she?"

Spoomonkey · June 29, 2007

DKent said:

I've never done anything "to" my wife all these years but be a wonderful, loving, supportive husband to her.

That is not entirely true, now is it?

You HAVE cheated on her, yes? That is doing "something" isn't it? If you don't think so - ask her... I am sure that she might actually agree with me that you have, in fact, done something to her...

The fact that you have successfully covered it up doesn't mean that you've never done anything. It just means you've never gotten caught.

You have been dishonest with her, you are being remarkably dishonest with yourself, and you wonder why you have no chance at swinging? Seriously? I am not saying that you should tell her what you have done - if you can spare her feelings about your infidelities, by all means do so. But at the very least be honest with yourself - you cheated on your wife, which would - based on your reluctance to tell her - hurt her very much.

DKent said:

You're lucky, not necessarily good.

I am very lucky.

But I am sure that it is not in the way that you think.

I am lucky to have a wife who shares my interests - in sex as well as football... She is willing to talk to me about everything - just as I am willing to talk to her about everything. I am VERY lucky to have a soul mate with whom everything is on the table. I can assure that I have done nothing in my marriage that I would not tell her about - and I consider it quite lucky that I had the foresight to build such a relationship.

You see - we swing out of our honesty, not in spite of our "dishonesty". I am not judging you for what you have done, I am commenting on what you are now trying to do - which amounts to building a mansion on a foundation of shit...

Spoomonkey · June 29, 2007

DKent said:

Spoomonkey states that "because my marriage is not based upon trust and communication" (which isn't so, but I won't start that thread), we'll never be swingers! So, in other words, every couple who are completely open, trusting, communicate perfectly, etc., CAN swing? Absolute malarkey!

Two points:

1. Please explain to me how your marriage is built on communication and trust? She may trust you, but you've admitted that she doesn't know everything about you. She simply trusts the lies you're telling... Right? You only tell her what you want her to know... Isn't that true? Please explain your moral high ground on this point?

2. Your argument here is bullocks. I did not say that any couple who is open, trusting, etc. CAN swing. I would never even imply such a ridiculous thing. It is possible to be open, trusting, honest about your insecurities and your jealousies. And it can also be possible to be honest and open about your convictions about monogamy.

I also am not implying that every couple who swings is open and honest. I have seen my share of train wrecks out there and am under no illusion that swing-dom is exempt from such drama.

What I was saying is - should you be capable of comprehending it - honesty and communication are a part of the foundation of a successful swinging couple.

TNT · June 29, 2007

DKent said:

It's true, it's absolutely true: Men ARE from Mars and Women ARE from Venus. They are different - VERY different! In outlook, needs, perceptions, flexibility, etc. However, in my comprehensive research recently, I've discovered that SOME women are from Mars too - and those are the ones who are able to swing!

You may be right...Ted's often told me I think more like a man than a woman even though I'm very much a girly-girl woman.

BUT...your hypothesis does not take into account all the many, many men who have come here to the board and who I've seen at different swinger events that really get their panties in a wad after they were the ones that pushed their wife into swinging and once she agreed and participated, they discovered she LIKED it and he was the one that all of a sudden, it wasn't his cup of tea because it wasn't all about him getting some strange but her too and he didn't like that.

There really are as many men who can't handle swinging as there are women.

Teresa

Chicup · June 29, 2007

DKent said:

Chicup - I do not feel I've been selfish - I truly want to share the joys of swinging with my wife! But if she would get no joy from it, and only go through the motions, I'd not enjoy it myself. It needs to be mutual! But yes, I definitely blindsided her with a concept I had been rolling around in my head for months. I felt like an idiot, thinking her reaction might be any different than it was! I was obviously obsessed with the idea and my mind crazed with the drug of pent-up lust! Running that day over in my mind now, it was totally out of my character and apparently, totally ignoring the likelihood of it blowing up in my face. But you know the old saying, "break an egg...make an omelet"? Well, after all was said and done, she is dressing a bit more feminine and being more creative in bed and open to trying new things...like the CO resort. So in the end, this might have been the breakthrough we needed to pull our sex life out of the doldrums.

The fact that you told her at least this aspect of your personality isn't a bad thing, it took you 28 years to get to that point which you should have talked about before you were married or as soon as you yourself realized it, but whats done is done so ok better late.

I won't comment about the whole cheating thing because there is nothing more I can add there that hasn't been said.

I will comment on your motivation. It IS selfish, 100% selfish. Sure you want to swing with your wife because YOU want to swing with your wife not because she wants to swing with you.

Really its kind of tragic if you ask me. For 28 years your wife never knew you and you hid what you were from her for whatever reason. I don't know if I'm lucky or if I'm good, but I know I never have to fear my wife learning something about who I am or what I've done. Hell, as I've often joked, 'Honey you knew that before you married me.'.

Alura · June 29, 2007

I have a question about your motivation to swing, DKent.

You say you're tired of the duplicity and want to enjoy the lifestyle with your wife. That's understandable. I can assure you that the satisfaction of swinging together is so powerful that most vanilla folks probably have no idea.

But how much of your motivation has to do with aging? You're over fifty now and probably having more difficulty enticing the young babes into bed. Older women who are willing to fuck a stranger met in a bar are rare.

Perhaps you're just looking for an easier way to find that variety you enjoyed when you were younger?

fun4Ds · June 29, 2007

I guess I don't get it, maybe it's because I could never walk in your shoes after so many years in my marriage and there is no way you could walk in mine.

You dont want to hurt your wife by telling about your secret cheating life, my heart bleeds a little for your wife. So many years she was by your side building a life and your business and not having the respect of your honesty, and to me this is about her being respected. I'm sorry, I dont get it, I dont get you or your reasons.

It seems that all of this is about you having your cake and eating it too. You seem to want the icing on your cake by swinging now. To me, it seems that you don't deserve the icing YOUR WIFE DOES, NOT YOU !!!

Like I said, you cant walk in my shoes nor can I walk in your shoes now. It sounds like you can't be honest with your wife, because you dont want to hurt her.

Well you already have, you just believe that what she can't see, doesn't hurt. I can only imagine how many times that woman has sat there with you at any get together with anyone and was a fool for being with you. And you say you were a good husband? That makes you feel good?

I'm going out on a limb here but isn't your real reason you could never be honest, is the fact that you might lose everything ? At least half of what you have? I see fear, not mercy.

Some of the things you need to rethink, like your past. Look at the road you think you see in your future now. Its kind of illusional to me, isn't it? I mean you have researched the lifestyle and you are going to a club and there you will stand, naked? and your wife in a snow suit talking to no one. And she has now went to the car because she can't handle this place or how you feel.. Well my friend, you have just hurt her again.

Hide the wounds if that makes you feel good.

DKent · June 29, 2007

Alura - no it has nothing to do with aging. You made the assumption I'm going after the "younger babes" but that is incorrect. I'm more interested in mature women and arranging a liaison with one is not difficult at all (I do not hang out in bars). That has nothing to do with it. Maybe I'm just 'done' with that scene.

Also, it was said that me and all these other men come here to try to learn how to "coerce" our wives into swinging. C'mon! Every one of you guys whose idea it was originally had to present it to your wife, had to suggest it, if not "sell" her on the idea to get her to try it. Some wives liked it right off, others might've taken more time. The point is - you make it sound like any guy who wants to swing and comes up with the notion first is some inconsiderate ass who is only thikning about his own needs. Swinging is not a spontaneous and coinciding revalation to a couple! One or the other pulled the idea out of the air and brought it up. Is this "coercion"?

I brought it up to my wife, just like so many of you did. I wanted her to explore the lifestyle, just like you wanted for your wives. I wanted to see herself expanding her sexual experiences and loving it - just like you want for your wives. I wanted her to enjoy, to grow, to participate in a rare slice of life few get to ever see. It wasn't about me - it was all about her, about US! But she had a highly negative reaction and I backed off, realizing it wasn't something she'd want to do. But we did discuss things I like and I opened up to her certain thoughts and ideas, and asked her what fantasies she might have, or things she would like to try in bed. It was a "getting to know you better" process after raising kids all our married life and realizing we'd fallen into a rut.

And that is "coercion"? I think not! The idea to go to the CO resort was hers, after we'd talked about nudity and such. I was joking about the snow suit, but if she - like some other visitors at CO resorts (which are not just clothing optional - they are just as much nudity optional) want to join their spouse there but not disrobe, what's the harm? I have no intention in pushing her to strip.

So I think a lot of you here got your backs up because I admitted to my infidelity past, and overlooked the whole reason for my original post - not to learn how to "trick" my wife into swinging but merely a discussion amongst husbands here who have realized it ain't gonna happen, and their thoughts about it.

Sorry I was such a downer for the board. I think this is a great forum, with a lot of nice, insightful people, and a few who must comment on every single thing that's posted because they like to see their name up there and like the sound of their own voice.

I've gotten my fill of input now, thank you. You can move on if you'd like.....

yourbitterpill · June 29, 2007

Not entirely sure where to begin here DKent. All I can say is that from your initial post, you display all the qualities of being a sociopath.

I'm serious. You need some psychiatric help, buddy. Not just for your wife and family but for yourself. Although I'm not sure you'll be willing to receive the help or even listen to my advice but you display ALL the common symptoms of sociopathic disorder.

The bulleted symptoms below are the sociopathic qualities you've displayed in writing.

...I've always had a much greater sex drive than her and a need for more "out there" sex. I have indeed cheated on her our entire lives together, having many affairs, one-night stands, liaisons on business trips, even bisexual experiences. I've enjoyed it all, and have been immensely careful not to leave any clues or slip up, and she has no idea about my "other" life.

-Need for stimulation

-Poor behavorial control

-Infidelity

-Pathological lying

-Secretive

...Truth is, I do not have any guilt regarding my infidelity, but I'm tired of it.

-Lack of remorse or shame

Too much effort and time wasted setting up secret rendezvous, etc. I want to experience the pleasures of non-monogamous sex WITH my lady by my side; I want to share it with her and not have to decieve her anymore.

-Manipulative

-Parasitic lifestyle(possibly?)

I suspect that the only reason you suddenly see "swinging" as some sort of holy grail for your sexlife is because you're finding it harder and harder to acquire sexual partners on your own. You're aging and, as a man, are probably noticing that time is a little easier on the female form than the male. What better way to acquire more partners than to include your sexy wife? And imagine all the sexual possiblities she would open FOR YOU.

...I finally dropped the bomb on her on (of all days, you idiot!) Mother's Day! She exploded. No, she IMploded. Whatever, it was the most shocking, terrifying thing to ever happen to her in our relationship - she thought the dream was over. She was so scared, hurt, confused, repulsed. I finally had to backpedal and try to talk to her rationally and we went to marriage counseling only two days later (at MY behest, not hers!). I needed to be able to talk to her via the thrid party there. I needed to ease her pain. Anyway, things went well there, and we opened a new line of communication. She never suspected I was so...sexual..so kinky. This man she'd known almost all her life was different now in a way, and it still leaves her a bit muddled and confused.

-Shallow emotions (you told her on Mother's Day!? WTF!? Who does that?)

-Need to justify crimes to receive their victim's affirmation

-creation of willing "victim(s)"

I noticed in the above as well that you always address HER emotions. You never say how you felt. I imagine you felt....good. After all the lying and secrecy, you were finally able to be "truthful". Don't you feel better? It didn't matter how SHE FELT. It didn't matter that that day should have been HER DAY. Nope, you needed that monkey off your back right quick. And you got it.

And then (and this is VERY cunning of you) you go to the marriage counselor. But is it to save your marriage? No, it's for you to open YOUR floodgates EVEN MORE. It's for you to tell her "hey, let's have sex with other people together!".

...She tried to learn what the attraction is. She even looked online at various swinger's sites, the Freedom Acres site, etc. She wanted to know what her man was interested in doing. She couldn't agree with any of the positives all you folks were preaching. She did suggest she might go to a club just for me, to "get it out of my system" , but she'll sit in the bar and interact with no one...maybe go back to the car if it's too much. What fun.

-Glib & Callous

It's not about her "learning what the attraction is". It's about her trying to understand how this could possibly HELP your already messed up marriage! She's not interested in doing it because she's smart. She realizes that your relationship LACKS THE FOUNDATION FOR HEALTHY SWINGING - TRUST AND COMMUNICATION. She knows that this won't change you, your duplicity, your lack of empathy, or the relationship. She can see through your BS.

...We've rarely watched porn; she has no interest in seeing other people having sex and it doesn't arouse her (so much for same-room sex). She doesn't have any fantasies about having sex with other people. She doesn't talk dirty and the word "fuck" is almost impossible to pry out of her mouth.

So what could POSSIBLY make you believe that suddenly she'd want to hop into bed with other people?

Anyway, I wonder if there are other men on here with equally hopeless situations. I've all but resigned myself to the fact that I'll never get to indulge in that forbidden pleasure of outside sex WITH my wife there, enjoying it with me.

No, you've already indulged in that "forbidden pleasure" WITHOUT your wife for years. That's part of the reason she doesn't want to do that.

Comments? How do you handle this? Do you keep pressing? Did you give up?
Why exactly are you here reading the forum like me?

From your other comments, you also:

-Contemptuous of others

-Does not percieve anything is wrong with them

-Grandiose sense of self

Be a real man. Get a divorce. It's readily apparent that you will continue to do what you believe is right, regardless of how it affects your marriage and your wife. Either do a whole bunch of soul-searching alone or go see a psychiatrist. You are a sociopath. You are looking to fill a hole in your life and your current course of action hasn't helped. Time to change tack.

It's true, it's absolutely true: Men ARE from Mars and Women ARE from Venus. They are different - VERY different! In outlook, needs, perceptions, flexibility, etc. However, in my comprehensive research recently, I've discovered that SOME women are from Mars too - and those are the ones who are able to swing!

My wife and I have been married 2 years, swinging (on and off) for 4 years. Let me just say that both men and women are SO much more complex than that little blurb makes them out to be. There is a lot of grey area.

There are a lot of people in the world who think they can fit themselves or others into neat little labeled boxes. It doesn't work that way. You haven't done any "research". You've picked and chosen what fits your current perceptions about the world.

DKent · June 29, 2007

Interesting hypothesis, Dr. YourBitterPill, but inaccurate. I disagree with you completely. You could apply those same assumptions to any number of people and label them a "sociopath" too. The definition of a sociopath is "an agressively antisocial psychopath". I an not aggressive, nor am I antisocial by any means (I'm probably one of the most popular, witty, and outgoing people my friends and family know). And a "psychopath"? Even by your definitions that makes zero sense here. Sounded like a pretty impressive thesis though! I'm sure you had a lot of heads bobbing knowingly in agreement.

Truth is, you do not know me and cannot know me based upon some posted statements here. And you do not know my wife. She's always felt extremely lucky to have such a warm, loving, considerate and compassionate husband. You all act as though she was unhappy! She wasn't. She loves me dearly and I her.

And the fact I was unfaithful to her was unknown to her and remains so, so in her mind, it isn't even a factor. The only factor here is that she learned I have desires about which she previously didn't know and now does. We're dealing with it. We talk about it a lot.

My choice to stop fooling around was my own. I wasn't "caught" or even suspected. I simply got to a point (maybe when the kids got old enough to where we are having more time together) where it didn't feel acceptable anymore in my mind and I wanted to try to devote more of that energy to her and our relationship. That was the impetus for suggesting swinging. The choice of the day was a total coincidence - we were alone without distractions, for once. But that was a bad choice in retrospect. I'm not saying I've made all good choices along the way. I'm not perfect like a lot of people. But I have been a good husband (yes, despite my extramarital activities!), never neglected her or my children, and a model family man. So I was - if nothing else - able to compartmentalize my home life with my outside life. And I'm not boasting about it or making it sound like I deserve a medal for the accomplishment. I'm just stating it, revealing it openly.

But that point has been beaten to death here. The fact is, I've met several current swingers who previously cheated on their spouses, were either discovered or weren't, and found that the mutual and open sharing of swinging made that something that neither spouse wanted or needed to continue to do. One couple who live nearby - the ones who pointed this forum out to me and I'm in contact with regularly, both were cheating on one another, almost came to divorce over it, discovered swinging, and are in a wonderful marriage again. I envied them and was inspired by them. That is pretty much when I decided to bring it up to my wife.

I've hidden only one thing from my wife all these years, and in hindsight, she never was the less for it. Now I choose a new path, and am labeled a "sociopath" by an armchair psychologist.

You're all going to think what you wish, or what some compelling essay convinces you to believe, but again, you do not know me. I'd have to confidently state that I've been a much better husband and father than 90% of all the other husbands and fathers I've ever known. Sure, I've lived a complex life that included deception, but again, not once was my family neglected for it. They've always been Number One and always will be. More than I can say for a lot of people....

Chicup · June 29, 2007

e couple who live nearby - the ones who pointed this forum out to me and I'm in contact with regularly, both were cheating on one another, almost came to divorce over it, discovered swinging, and are in a wonderful marriage again.

Just a side note.

My guess is you and I have different definitions of a wonderful marriage

havefuninsun · June 29, 2007

To the OP:

Why did you think it was OK to cheat?

It sounds like you felt an entitlement to variety, although when that point was brought up you said no, that's not how you felt.

People cheat on their spouses for a LOT of reasons. But I have never heard a person who has chosen to cheat then say that their wives (or husbands) are the loves of their lives and give them the kudos you give your wife. That is very perplexing to me.

I have known a lot of cheaters. And they all were missing something in their relationship with their spouse ... and SEX wasn't one of them. I don't know anyone who cheated solely to get some strange. They usually had more of an emotional affair going on with someone else before anything physical happened.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but do you think you have an addiction to sex?

And ... you may not know it, you may not believe it, or you just might not want to, but believe me, you have hurt your wife. SOMETHING made you seek outside relationships. I really hope she never finds out.

(And before you start in with me ... I was a cheater. I cheated on my ex-husband. He did eventually find out, and not because I came clean. I would have gone to my grave with that secret. Like you, I didn't ever want him to know because I didn't ever want him to feel that pain. Hind-sight is 20/20; I should have just gotten out of the marriage when I realized it was done and not played in someone else's ball field. I can never forgive myself for my poor judgment).

So ... again ... why did you cheat?

DKent · June 29, 2007

Fair enough question. I did not, as you proposed, cheat to fulfill anything but physical needs. I never became emotionally involved with anyone or had any 'relationship' with anyone else.

Before I met my wife, I had an active and varied sex life. When we got together, things were pretty exciting and 'creative', but after the kids came, she cooled off and exhibited less and less interest in sex. She had switched into the "mommy mode", a non-sexual view of herself which is not uncommon in child-raising women. I tried to initiate sex, and tried to be sensitive to her needs (or lack thereof). I resorted to masturbation a lot, to blow off steam (and other stuff!). I suggested she go to the doctor for a hormone panel, which she did and everything was fine. I tried pleasuring her in more calm ways - massage, caressing, etc., to bring her libido up to speed. Not too often did it awaken her desires. I felt like I needed/wanted sex and she did not.

But the urge was too strong to have truly fulfilling and frequent sex, and it was easy and discreet to find elsewhere. Once I'd "crossed the line", there was no going back and I actually let some of the pressure off of my wife (which she seemed to appreciate!) because I was getting sexual satisfaction elsewhere. I know it sounds like I rationalizing that my infidelity was to her benefit too, but I'm merely pointing out the way events unfolded.

Up until fairly recently, her sex drive was in a sort of doldrums. Then, my advances seemed to be bearing more fruit...sort of timed with both our kids being able to drive themselves and us having actually privacy in the house. The sex seemed to be more frequent, but still rather traditional, or "vanilla" as some say. So I conjured up this idea in my mind to get us involved in swinging - soft at first, maybe merely dancing, flirting, possibly same-room-sex at the most. Adding some spice, some new experiences, some new, mutual adventures.

At this point, I had sort of lost the need to "cheat" as I was getting sex once a week, or three times a month at least, from my wife. I decided she had somehow shed this cloak of disinterest and now I wanted to nourish this interest of hers. So after maybe almost a year of thinking about it, I "popped the question" to her about swinging....and you all know the rest.

So there you have it - the sordid details....

Spoomonkey · June 29, 2007

DKent said:

The sex seemed to be more frequent, but still rather traditional, or "vanilla" as some say... At this point, I had sort of lost the need to "cheat" as I was getting sex once a week, or three times a month at least, from my wife.

Okay - putting aside the other issues...

This sounds to me like you were trying to jump a canyon on a tricycle...

This isn't exactly a profile of a woman ready to swing. If anything, you really jumped the gun. Mrs Spoo and I were having sex an average of 10 times a week when we first got into swinging - and that average hasn't changed much. And while we haven't covered our walls with plastic, I wouldn't consider our personal sex lives "vanilla".

I would think that for the most part, the wives that are open to swinging are pretty sexual creatures.

That was my point about trust... You guys were just reestablishing a sex life together - and were really in the "crawl before you walk" stage. Then, you toss swinging at her? No wonder she wigged out...

Oleg&Lena · June 30, 2007

I see almost all who said here are trying to say: DKent, you are not swinger and swinging is not for you. Why?

Of course it is not good when man cheat his wife. But if he is trying to begin new life without lie...If he is trying to change his life... Is it bad? Is it wrong? Who did not mistakes?

fun4Ds · June 30, 2007

I'll accept that you want things to change, people do change. If what you say is true that you have been an exceptionally great husband, except for your sexual wrongs. ...... what if.

What if you find out you were wrong about why your wife was in her sexual rut with you, because she just doesn't find you all that in bed. You don't exactly float her boat and the only reason she actually has stayed with you through all these years was just for the sake of the kids ,your business, and a financial dependence on you. Or, just her morals that staying with the one you married is the wright thing to do.

What if she in fact wants sex in every way possible, threesomes, foursomes, bisexual, even a gang bang, everything under the sun sexually except for one thing. She, doesn't want you there.

Ya know, women are so different it may have been you who were fooled all along.

What if you find out that all these times she was with you. From every time you thought you got her off, she was just faking it because emotionally, you just didn't rock her world. She had to fake it because she felt .. stuck with you. Wouldn't that be a bitter pill to swallow?

Seriously maybe you can not be honest with your wife and the counselor. But, what if this brings out feelings that your wife has had repressed all her entire life with you. Sure she wants to keep the marriage and let you do your thing but what if she wants to fly solo and to achieve her sexual gratifications like you.... she doesn't want you there?

Would you give her that sacrifice? Let her have her playmates, let her explore every sexual fantasy she has ever had, and trust me she has had fantasies you just don't know what they are. Will you give her that freedom, sexual freedom?

Can you handle that ? Her having "just sex" long, extended sex. No emotional bonds with sexual playmates and you don't get the privilege of the details because she wants the same that you have had so many years.

Can you take care of the business the home the family problems while she is being a good swinger and going on sexual missions and yes you don't get the privilege of being there because she has sexual repressions and she doesn't want you there?

I just want to know, can you be all giving and let her have all she wants sexually, with out you there. You don't even get the details. Will you keep the home safe while she is gone? How giving are you ?

What if things change, and they are not in your favor ? Lets face it, when you brought up this lifestyle, you opened Pandora's box, you planted the seed. It's gonna be pretty tricky to control things in counseling.

B,e prepared for the things that are from her. What if she has some fantasy of a five black male gang bang and you being at home with dinner ready when she gets home.? Some how, aren't you gonna have to think to yourself..... Well, I do owe her a few nights out without me.... Don't you ?

Be honest, how do you feel about her sexual fantasies, if you have no and I mean, no control? Seriously, be honest with yourself. She is a woman and you can never read her mind either.

ShellyM · June 30, 2007

In response to the OP,

Your situation is definately challenging. Jay and I are fortunate in we are sexually a very good match and compatible. Number one, the fact is you cannot "make" her do something that she simply is morally or for whatever reason against doing. Not implying that you have done this at all. If she is dead set against swinging you do not want to push her, because we know couples where the woman did it because he wanted her to and now its turned on him. She has the attitude of this is what you wanted, you got it...not nice to watch. BUT. Then you run into the opinion that YOU are half the marriage, and as entitled to happiness as she is. So then I think "well, he has needs too. Is it fair for her to NOT give him sexual intimacy and then deny him the ability to seek it elsewhere?" So its a hard call. You really need to talk with her. Not in an angry or condescending way. I would sit down with her and explain your needs and what you want and what you need. She sounds like a good woman. Best of luck to you,

Shelly

Spoomonkey · June 30, 2007

Oleg&Lena said:

I see almost all who said here are trying to say: DKent, you are not swinger and swinging is not for you. Why?
Of course it is not good when man cheat his wife. But if he is trying to begin new life without lie...If he is trying to change his life... Is it bad? Is it wrong? Who did not mistakes?

We all make mistakes - and most of us understand the affects of those mistakes. When you lie to your spouse, you affect the relationship. It changes it - corrupts the foundation. The bigger the lie, the bigger the crack in that foundation.

In this case, the wife has no idea what kind of marriage she has - she has the illusion of a faithful, respectable husband (or at least, DKent thinks she hold such an illusion ). I would say that the damage to the foundation is so significant that if she were ever to find out the truth, the marriage would be very lucky to survive.

And it is upon that damaged foundation, that our OP wanted to build a swinging relationship. Why? Because he wanted to share something with his wife? Not really. Not if you read the posts preceding. He wants to swing because cheating got to be a pain in the ass to arrange - and he simply got tired of that "lifestyle".

Now he wants a new one.

And his first act of building this new lifestyle on a damaged foundation? Dump his sexual desires (not his sexual mistakes, just his desires) on a woman who has not developed herself sexual - she hasn't really "come into her own." For example:

DKent said:

We've rarely watched porn; she has no interest in seeing other people having sex and it doesn't arouse her (so much for same-room sex). She doesn't have any fantasies about having sex with other people. She doesn't talk dirty and the word "fuck" is almost impossible to pry out of her mouth.

DKent said:

The sex seemed to be more frequent, but still rather traditional, or "vanilla" as some say.

DKent said:

At this point, I had sort of lost the need to "cheat" as I was getting sex once a week, or three times a month at least, from my wife.

This act of impulsiveness came - of all times - on Mother's Day.

He had - understandably - a bad result.

In an act of revisionist history, he states in his later posts that it is all for her, while in earlier posts, he states that he has "all but resigned [him]self to the fact that [he]'ll never get to indulge in that forbidden pleasure of outside sex WITH [his] wife there, enjoying it with [him]."

He is not resigned to the fact that she'll never get to indulge in group sex - he is resigned that he won't get to. This isn't about her. It is about him.

Turning your life around is one thing - but that is not what is happening here. It is simply the next chapter of the same old thing.

If I were in his shoes, how would I turn things around?

I agree that telling her about his indiscretions would be counter productive, but at the very least, I would admit to myself that it was wrong, I had damaged my marriage and I had a job ahead of me to repair that damage. In a very real way, I would need to rebuild the foundation.

I would start by putting sex with other people out of my mind for good.

That is the past problem, that is the current problem. So - get rid of it.

I would share my sexual interests with her, but I would share them in a non-threatening way. Not in a "this is what I want us to do" but "this is what I fantasize about". And I'd make it impersonal, detached from our marriage.

But - that would be a subplot really... Mainly I would work on reconnecting with her - taking this new found freedom without kids to reconnect as a couple and reconnect her with her sexuality. Giving her the freedom and the room to explore herself.

It'd be very "vanilla" at first... Candles and a bubble bath, boss and secretary role play, making love in the back yard, late at night, under the stars...

She needs to feel that she can trust him completely. And women aren't stupid... My suspicion is that even if she doesn't know what he has done - and even if she doesn't consciously suspect him - she has some intuitive lack of trust.

Building that trust will be the biggest trick - and may be the entire journey - but that would be the first step.

And when she trusts, she might start talking about the fantasies that she does have. DKent needs to - at that point - shut his mouth and take notes... Make this truly about her - and not just about her in some self-justifying way - and help her indulge her fantasies. They may be as simple as introducing Jello to the bedroom - or they may be as complex as arranging for a Navy SEAL assault team to storm her beaches... But until he knows HER fantasies, he really shouldn't be pressuring her with his...

He may find out that - when he has done all of that - that he has actually forgotten about swinging and is simply enjoying the thrill of giving her fantasy after fantasy - Jello after Jello.

A healthy marriage isn't about your "right" to have sex with others. It is about the depth of your enjoyment of one another. If he were to pursue that as his goal, then THAT would be turning his life around. But that isn't what he is doing based on his posts. And that, Oleg&Lena, is what is desperately wrong with this picture...

ShellyM · June 30, 2007

Spoo, I absolutely agree with you.

But, does one spouse have the right to deny sexual intimacy to the other KNOWING that they need more? She is his wife and has to know that he needs more sex. We know when our hubbies jerk off usually. No one has the right to cheat, and I am not condoning the affairs. AND I agree with you, he seems to not want to cheat because its a hassle to schedule a tryst. (JMO, I'm not judging anyone here but rather making a point). BUT. If she knows that her husband needs more sexual intimacy, and yes I think that for some people it is a need and not just a want, does she have the right to say "I'm not giving you sex AND you will not seek it from another woman?" I don't know the answer to that myself, its such a hard call to make. Do the opinions/preferences of one spouse outweigh the other when both spouses are supposed to be 50% of a marriage?

Okay, I'm thinking way too much before having my coffee.

Shelly

Oleg&Lena · June 30, 2007

At last post of Spoomonkey all is said right. Of course not to make a step to swinging in one day or one week. Maybe ever one year is little period for it. But if he really want to receive new interesting relationship with his wife he may do it. It is hardly but it is possible I guess.

The trust of course is fundamental of that relationship.

BiloxiCouple · June 30, 2007

What I see

What is needed

Spoomonkey · June 30, 2007

ShellyM said:

But, does one spouse have the right to deny sexual intimacy to the other KNOWING that they need more?

Absolutely not.

And it is not right-minded thinking for a spouse to simply "take it" when a spouse refuses intimacy. Making sure our spouse is taken care of is the responsibility of the spouse, IMHO. And, as I was joking with some women at work this week, men are pretty simple - feed us and fuck us and you have us figured out (again, I was joking, but it is not that far from true... In my case at least).

Women take a bit more work - like Mrs. DKent for example.

I do not think that a rational response for a husband (or wife) is to simply shrug their shoulders, claim to be a victim and start sleeping around. It happens - and it is not the "sin to end all sins". It IS distasteful to many swingers - for good reason - because we HAVE put in the work necessary to make our marriages open, honest and whole (for the most part - I am not claiming perfection )

I sincerely wish that couples, early in their relationships would hash out these types of issues - allowing for the changes that are bound to come when children enter the scene. I wish that more women understood that their relationship is just as much a part of their responsibility as their kids... Of course, I wish more husbands understood that their relationship was just as important as their need for sex

I have two women at work that I am close to. In that, I mean we talk about sex comfortably and without detail (Okay, there is the occasional detail). One has a three year old and uses him as her excuse for not having time for sex with her husband. One has a six month old and - in response to hearing the other woman's excuse - said, "we don't have that problem."

You can imagine which relationship is on the rocks...

But - that doesn't excuse cheating. Cheating is simply avoiding dealing with the issue. As I have told Mrs Spoomonkey (and she has told me) while I believe we are soul mates, while I believe we were made for each other, and while we have never had an issue with our sex lives (heck, we have only had one fight ever) - if she were to lose interest in having sex with me, and was not willing to work on the problem constructively, our fairy tale would be over.

Because dishonest is just not something I'm good at.

Cpl2share · June 30, 2007

As a person who enjoys playing devil's advocate:

Just maybe the reason that the OP's wife is now more interested in sex is because the OP is around home more now and she does not have the time for secret trysts. She may not be interested in going to swinger events because she has already been to many of them while he was off getting it on the side. She does not want one of her many past "lovers" to recognize and out her.

I have known many women and yes I have cheated on many girlfriends (NEVER MY WIFE) in my day. Women are SMART! They may not have proof, and they may not know who, but they always know what. Every time that I cheated on a girlfriend she figured it out. I am 100% certain that the OP's wife does know about his cheating. In 28 years there is no way that he has successfully hidden it. Come on, he can't be that smart. A woman with that low of interest in sex, and he proposes swinging on Mothers Day? That is not a sign of high IQ.

Further: The OP's statement that he is now spending more time with his wife because the kids are on their own tells me that he DID avoid spending time at home. He is lowlife.

ShellyM · June 30, 2007

Well, I would not throw out personal attacks. I know for a fact that sometimes women turn into this alter ego, what I call "super Mommies". Their kids become their entire world....and this is NOT a bad thing. But I appreciate the fact that Jay takes care of himself, and I do the same for him. We keep our sex life on overdrive because from that physical connection comes a spiritual, intimate connection.

I do agree, she knows what he is up to. Now, I have met a few women who were absolutely blindsided by an affiar, no clue at all. But most knew who she was, where she worked, how many kids she had, etc. etc. and etc. To do something like asking her to become a swinger on Mother's Day knowing how she feels about the issue was not smart. I don't know the OP enough to say whether or not it was malicious in nature, I can only hope that it wasn't.

Shelly

Swing*8701 · July 1, 2007

Susan here-- It's so silly when a man says he has been discrete and his affairs have never effected his wife. Of course they have. With every lie and deception they effect his wife. n time, as the song goes, he puts another brick in the wall.

Also, it's not about them swinging. He's just looking for a license to fuck other women. Now, that's certainly part of what we like, but for this person it's THE thing.

Swinging is about sharing your sexual self, not hiding it. And it's not for everyone and if that person happens to be your spouse, you have to accept it.

intuition897 · July 1, 2007

You ever get to a point where you're just tired? Just really tired of saying the same damn thing over and over again, only to repeat it with as much passion the next day? I feel I'm reaching a point where I'm just tired of verbally spanking people who won't learn anything from it anyway.

Today's your lucky day, DKent. I have read this thread through and although my comments would be mere reiterations of the musings of such posters as Chicup, Alura, Spoomonkey, TheFuse, TNT and many more, I still have my own thoughts about your chosen lifestyle. Please don't ask for my opinion, because there wouldn't be much left of your ass when I was done chewing on it. I find it exhausting to expend so much energy and time on a response that is just a dose of common sense, hoping against hope that the intended audience would hear it and get a clue, only to suffer the demoralizing frustration and disappointment of yet another closed mind refusing to accept a simple Truth.

Teresa, you and I are on the same page: we both write and think the word Truth with an upper-case 'T'. I'd expand on that thought, but it's all I can do to stop here. DKent, if you're really interested in my thoughts on the matter (though as you've said, you've had quite enough input, TYVM), you can search for the words cheater, cheating, etc. You'll probably find my name on the vast majority of those threads, repeating the same mantras over and over. To no avail. It's sad. The cheater says his piece, I say mine, cheater says, "You losers SUCK because you're not telling me what I want to hear. I'm outta here." and things settle down. But the cheaters cometh, and we do the same dance over and over. You may not believe it or like it, but your story is NOT unique. Nothing you've said is news to us.

[counting to 10....stopping...taking fingers off keyboard...]

ShellyM · July 1, 2007

I absolutely agree. She knows everything I'm sure, and for whatever reason turns a blind eye to whats going on. This is most likely why she does not want him to touch her.....what woman would want her husband to make love to her when she knows he is banging other women behind her back? Aside from the fact that it is just inexcusably wrong to cheat there are other concerns such as bringing home possible illness and disease to a wife that is completely innocent. I have been asked by married cheating men to play with them on many occasions. And I have spoken with people who say that they do it, "its not their problem".....but I always tell the man that my conscience will not allow me to be in a hotel room with him knowing that a good woman and his children are at home waiting for husband and daddy to come home from his "meeting". Just not something I can do and then have the ability to look myself in the face.

Shelly

DKent · July 3, 2007

Shelly: You've been right about much here but not that she knows about my past cheating. She knows nothing. Zip. Yes, I've been THAT careful. To be 100% accurate, it's not just "the hassle" of setting up secret trysts as Spoomonkey asserts - it's actually that I WANT to be exclusive to my wife, and seeing her finally beginning to open up into a person who can give more intimacy gives me hope that my needs can and will again be fulfilled by her. For the record, you're all entirely wrong in saying I ever denied my family one moment of the time they deserved, spending it with another woman. You have no clue, so don't even go there. I've doted on my family (wife and kids) more than anyone I know, even to the detriment of my own business through the years - taking days off for ballgames or dance recitals.

Do I want to swing just so I can fuck other women? Absolutely not! I'd rather watch my wife enjoying the scene, whether it's merely observing others, or being gang-banged, and sit by the side without touching anyone else, than to indulge myself while she either does nothing or goes through the motinos just for me but doesn't like it. And that's ONLY if that is what SHE wants! I opened up the can of worms (and although the day wasn't well-chosen, it is irrelevant to the situation and of course, not malicious as someone suggested) in the belief that she MIGHT be one of those "quiet" women harboring secret desires, or maybe a latent curiousity in such thing. Since then, I've learned I was wrong. She isn't interested and swinging is off the table. I acknowledged it and accepted it and my original post was merely to discuss this turn of events with other men in the same boat.

In all your vehement efforts to condemn me and throw rocks, only a few of you actually are hearing me.

intuition897 · July 3, 2007

I've tried, but it's like I've got Tourette's when it comes to this topic.

Shelly: You've been right about much here but not that she knows about my past cheating. She knows nothing. Zip. Yes, I've been THAT careful.

She may not have any evidence, but the fact that you are able to do it in the first place means that you are okay with being dishonest with her. No matter how you might cover your tracks, you can't hide the quirk in your eyes when you tell her that there is no one else. And if you are able to convince her, then I am very sorry for you. I don't know how you could sleep at night.

To be 100% accurate, it's not just "the hassle" of setting up secret trysts as Spoomonkey asserts - it's actually that I WANT to be exclusive to my wife, and seeing her finally beginning to open up into a person who can give more intimacy gives me hope that my needs can and will again be fulfilled by her.

So, uh...why the hell don't you just tell the woman that she's not doing it for you? Why all the coy head games? It's no wonder she didn't go for the idea of swinging, knowing that she wasn't enough for you. Most women going into it are afraid of just that, but the thing is, for her, it's actually true. Isn't it?

For the record, you're all entirely wrong in saying I ever denied my family one moment of the time they deserved, spending it with another woman. You have no clue, so don't even go there. I've doted on my family (wife and kids) more than anyone I know, even to the detriment of my own business through the years - taking days off for ballgames or dance recitals.

Commendable.

Yet, apparently, you still don't value honesty.

In all your vehement efforts to condemn me and throw rocks, only a few of you actually are hearing me.

Again, you haven't said anything we haven't heard before. So maybe you're tired of cheating and being dishonest, and that's great. But the fact that you dislike that un-warm-&-fuzzy feeling that it gives you to lie to your wife doesn't change the fact that you are still okay with it! You said it yourself. You don't feel any guilt over your past affairs. You don't regret them.

You scoffed at the idea of coming clean, but I tell you this: until you do, it'll be like a rotting corpse under the floorboards. I'm sorry man, but most of us here practice honesty religiously. Don't assume that we haven't had to own up to some pretty big mistakes. It's not impossible; it's just very painful and very difficult. But we'd rather give our spouses the dignity of an informed choice. Or is it that you're certain she would dump your ass on the curb? In that case, it's just your own ass you're protecting...not hers. You are who you are. If you're such a great guy, such a great husband and family man as you've argued here, then surely your wife will see that and overlook your dishonesty with her. Do you not trust your wife to know what's in her own best interest? Like you said, you're a great guy! Surely she'll want to keep you. So what are you afraid of. If it were me, I'd rather know the real man I married, not just the mask he shows me. Then again, that's just me.

ShellyM · July 4, 2007

I agree with Intuition. I am not condemning you DKent, just stating my opinion. I said that some women are broadsided by affairs. My cousin was one. Her husband walks in, says he has another woman, so long been nice knowing you. If you had seen the destroyed woman I saw you would feel some guilt. Trust me. What pisses me off is the fact that you almost blame your wife. Its the old trick: "If she were taking care of me at home I wouldn't HAVE to cheat"....sorry, passing the buck. I chewed a friend out for telling me that about the wife of the man she was having an affair with. Took about 20 pounds off of her ass. Another thing that annoys me is this: When your wife finds out about your affairs she will probably BLAME HERSELF. Women are notorious for accepting the blame. She will be looking at what SHE could have done to keep you faithful. Shame on you for that. Again, I'm not condemning you. You have condemned yourself. Do I make mistakes? Hell yes I do. I have in swinging for goodness sakes, truth be told. But Jay and I are honest with each other, even when honesty pisses one of us off. Regarding coming clean. Its the right thing to do. I don't know, thats up to you.

Shelly

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