This man was NOT asked to join us at all...

[FloridaFlirt 15]

I was at a party recently with my boyfriend. We were invited into a room with another couple and a single guy to play. This was a house party where folks could mill about and look into rooms and join in (if asked).

 

I was busy showing off my oral skills when suddenly I felt hands and lips on me. Normally I woudn't mind it, but when I turned to see who it was, it was a man that I had never met. It really freaked me out! This man was NOT asked to join us at all. I said rather abruptly "Who are you?" My boyfriend heard me ask this, and stopped what he was doing to come over to make sure I was okay. The guy left a few seconds later...

 

Turned out he is part of a couple whose wife is looking for women only. (Yep you guessed it--another married lesbian!)

 

How should I have handled this situation? and how do I handle a similar situation in the future?

 

Thanks in advance....

[TNT 1,155]

How should I have handled this situation? and how do I handle a similar situation in the future?

 

Sounds like you handled it just fine.

 

I've been in similar situations many times before. I just look at the person, tell them they were not invited and didn't ask if they could touch. They have always backed off right away and usually don't bother me the rest of the night.

 

I'll never understand why people think that just because you're a swinger and in a swinger environment that the rules of polite society are suspended.

 

 

Teresa

[VegasLee 1,486]

Seems to me you handled it just fine. If they don't ask, they don't get to touch and that is the way it has to be.

 

People, please make note here, it was NOT a single guy that stepped over the line here. As we have found over the years we have many more problems with married men then we do single men.

[Tybee Swing 286]

This man was NOT asked to join us at all. I said rather abruptly "Who are you?" My boyfriend heard me ask this, and stopped what he was doing to come over to make sure I was okay.

...

How should I have handled this situation? and how do I handle a similar situation in the future?

 

Thanks in advance....

 

Hi! I think that you and your boyfriend both handled it just right. Yes, this has happened to me (usually they sneak up behind you where you can't see them, a rear assault if you will). How to handle it in the future? Just like you did. Being abrupt is perfectly appropriate, and probably even necessary!

[FloridaFlirt 15]

Seems to me you handled it just fine. If they don't ask, they don't get to touch and that is the way it has to be.

 

People, please make note here, it was NOT a single guy that stepped over the line here. As we have found over the years we have many more problems with married men then we do single men.

 

 

Indeed it was NOT a single guy....all of the single guys I know in the lifestyle are polite and know better than this guy did.

 

My opinion: I think the "married lesbians" are driving some of these married men to desperation in the lifestyle.

[BiloxiCouple 695]

So if I am doing the math right, the "married lesbian" made her husband a "married single"? This isn't a hit against true single guys. It is a hit against "married singles" for whatever their excuse is for their behavior.

[Tybee Swing 286]

I think the "married lesbians" are driving some of these married men to desperation in the lifestyle.

 

He's the one who made the conscious decision to try to steal some action by butting in uninvited. It doesn't matter to me how "desperate" a man is, he never has the right to do that. No matter what their excuse is, you don't just reach out and take.

 

If he has a problem with his wife, if he's feeling left out, let him grow a pair of balls and TELL HER that he's not happy about it. Let him step up to the plate and deal with his marital issues or swinging issues.

[FloridaFlirt 15]

He's the one who made the conscious decision to try to steal some action by butting in uninvited. It doesn't matter to me how "desperate" a man is, he never has the right to do that. No matter what their excuse is, you don't just reach out and take.

 

If he has a problem with his wife, if he's feeling left out, let him grow a pair of balls and TELL HER that he's not happy about it. Let him step up to the plate and deal with his marital issues or swinging issues.

 

I wholeheartedly agree, Mrs. Tybee.....perhaps they are not cut out for the lifestyle as far as parties go....(BTW, did you ever get down here?)

 

And BiloxiCouple, your math is spot on. This guy was made a "single" by virtue of his wife's wishes.

 

It doesn't matter how the guy got to be a single....the rules still apply.

[dayhiker 83]

I'm curious about this guy's wife. Seems like I've heard of this happening a couple of times how.

Is she is being selfish in going off to get what she wants out of swinging and leaving her husband to fend for himself?

Should be be helping him get some and then get what she wants as well?

thanks

dayhiker

 

I wholeheartedly agree, Mrs. Tybee.....perhaps they are not cut out for the lifestyle as far as parties go....(BTW, did you ever get down here?)

 

And BiloxiCouple, your math is spot on. This guy was made a "single" by virtue of his wife's wishes.

 

It doesn't matter how the guy got to be a single....the rules still apply.

[rotten&spoiled 15]

Well I guess you would consider me very close to one of those "married lesbians" you speak of. I would never leave my hubby feeling left out that way. To make it easier for him if we do go to parties and he wanted to play with a girl that was part of a couple I would gladly play with the man even though that is not my preference. It is my top priority to make sure we are both having a good time.

Furthermore, I cannot believe anyone here or anywhere for that matter would touch without being invited that is disgusting and if any guy touched me without being asked I would probably kick his butt severely. So you have a lot more self control than I could ever have.

[twoforone100 45]

About as you did. patrick pattie

[Rascal 17]

Hmmmm, I hate to admit it.... but I have been "tempted" to be the offender. LOL I've been at parties where I've been on the sidelines while my partner was playing while watching some of the activities.... and I can completely understand his "wanting" to join.... now he has the problem of whether to "ask" or since you're (or in my case another girl) was going down on one guy while wagging her tail around. She was engrossed with her oral administrations and I couldn't get my eyes off that delicious looking tail wagging around in front of me! lol I took the assumption that she was willing.... and gently caressed her bottom and eventually her clit.... before taking up the position behind her. She made no effort to oppose only to moan acceptance when I entered her. :-) She had a good time and I figured that my "asking" was my caressing of her derrière and her not objecting? :-)

Another time I didn't get involved when a man and a woman was going at it.... he came.... pulled out, got up and left! She was still breathing hard with her legs still splayed, recuperating and I had this very strong desire to go over to finish the job he left undone! .... I refrained, but only because I was also worn out! lol I think that the circumstances "might have" presented itself such as you were making yourself "available"? and while asking might be the polite thing to do... what would you have expected him to do? Tap you on the shoulder and interrupting while you're exercising your oral skills or merely to caress a part of you hoping for acceptance? ... You obviously didn't accept and he went away. But I think it might have been that he thought you were "open" to other advances. Now I'm also not talking about a house party of 6 or 8 people... in both these parties there were lots and lots of people that came and went.... It's nice to be polite... but when you're in the middle of a small orgy.... presumption of acceptance can be not too far away when you're in the middle of a bunch of naked bodies. I don't know what the exact situation was.... but it's obvious that he assumed that you might be interested in additional attentions. His touching and kissing was his way of asking.... your objection was your way of telling him no! He could have done it differently... and not knowing what the situation was I could think that you could have also done it differently, saying no thanks and maybe moving his hand away. Having been in similar situations I "think" that sometimes I can intuitively tell... whether she wants additional attention... It all depends on the situation... that you're both in! :-) I'm just trying to keep an open mind here.

[VegasLee 1,486]

As a host in a club that sees over 40,000 people a year at it we keep it simple... if I or any of my security sees someone "move in" without being asked or asking, they see the front door from the outside.

 

There is NEVER any reason for touching someone without prior permission in this lifestyle or any other time. Petting and kissing is not asking. This applies to the women as it does the men.

[rpu3 630]

Having been in similar situations I "think" that sometimes I can intuitively tell... whether she wants additional attention... It all depends on the situation... that you're both in! :-) I'm just trying to keep an open mind here.

 

If someone just couldn't help themselves because of my activity with my chosen partner or partners, or made assumptions on our behalf and decided to touch without permission, they'd find themselves being dragged out by whatever body part got their attention to the owner for removal from the club or party.

 

I completely agree with VegasLee: touching and kissing is no way to ask someone if they can join in. If a group were interested in others joining in, they would signal or directly ask you.

 

Glad your "intuition" has worked out for you to date... hope it doesn't fail you in the future and you get kicked out or accused of assault or get your ass kicked by some woman like me that takes GREAT offense to anyone who assumes rather than asking. Just because a woman's ass is in the air at a club or party doesn't mean she wants someone not in her party anywhere near it.

 

I like your club's simplicity regarding the rules, VegasLee. Nice to know there's yet another set of eyes to help watch one's back.

[lovinher 505]

This is the kind of thing that I worry about. If a guy pulled something like that on Lovinhim I might be the one getting the boot out of there.

[Spoomonkey 421]

If someone just couldn't help themselves because of my activity with my chosen partner or partners, or made assumptions on our behalf and decided to touch without permission, they'd find themselves being dragged out by whatever body part got their attention to the owner for removal from the club or party.

 

You know - if you threaten some guys with dragging them around by their naughty-bits, they might just take you up on it

 

To the OP - you handled it well, probably better than I would. In the situation, I'd probably end up sharing a jail cell with Lovinher... Fortunately, at our club, they make nice sturdy locks for the rooms.

 

Spoomonkey

[Tybee Swing 286]

Rascal, I'm going to answer you based on my genuine experiences, and experiences of other women who were with me and my husband when this happens.

 

now he has the problem of whether to "ask" or since you're (or in my case another girl) was going down on one guy while wagging her tail around. She was engrossed with her oral administrations and I couldn't get my eyes off that delicious looking tail wagging around in front of me! lol I took the assumption that she was willing....

 

If my tail is pointed outward in a direction where someone could approach it, that is not an invitation. If I'm so engrossed in what I'm doing that I'm swaying, that's not an invitation. If (and when, because it happens) a man approaches my ass and touches, he distracts me. He's not welcome. He pisses me off. I have to stop what I'm doing, look at him and say NO. In fact, he may well have ruined my mood.

 

In your example, she was willing, but this could have gone either way. Because of men who assume (like you did), I keep my back to the wall now. I don't like having to be on the defensive, but I'm very much on the defensive now. If men didn't assume, I could be more free and lose myself more in what I'm doing.

 

I figured that my "asking" was my caressing of her derrière and her not objecting? :-)

 

As far as I'm concerned, you figured wrong - if you're basing this on her position and her swaying.

 

Another time I didn't get involved when a man and a woman was going at it.... he came.... pulled out, got up and left! She was still breathing hard with her legs still splayed, recuperating and I had this very strong desire to go over to finish the job he left undone! .... I refrained, but only because I was also worn out! lol I think that the circumstances "might have" presented itself such as you were making yourself "available"?

 

Lying on one's back, recuperating, and not snapping one's legs shut immediately doesn't mean it's an open invitation. Are you serious?

 

and while asking might be the polite thing to do... what would you have expected him to do? Tap you on the shoulder and interrupting while you're exercising your oral skills or merely to caress a part of you hoping for acceptance?

 

I would expect him to MAKE EYE CONTACT at the very least, and look for a sign of invitation. If she maintains eye contact in a way that appears to be interest, then you ASK. Otherwise, if she doesn't make eye contact when you try and is engrossed in what she is doing, that conveys she's not interested, and don't interrupt. If she makes eye contact for a brief moment and looks away, it means "go away", or "look but don't touch".

 

It's nice to be polite... but when you're in the middle of a small orgy.... presumption of acceptance can be not too far away when you're in the middle of a bunch of naked bodies.

 

By "small orgy", I'm going to guess that could be 4-6 people or so. This could be 2 or 3 couples who arrived together, made plans together (and don't want others involved). This could be a couple of couples who met that night, but have spent the evening talking and flirting, building up to this. They do not want some random stranger cutting in. Again, you are wrong to assume that a few people having sex together ("small orgy"), means they're welcoming strangers to join in. In fact, the last time something like this happened to us, it was in precisely this situation. All they managed to do was distract and piss off four people.

 

I don't know what the exact situation was.... but it's obvious that he assumed that you might be interested in additional attentions. His touching and kissing was his way of asking....your objection was your way of telling him no!

 

not knowing what the situation was I could think that you could have also done it differently, saying no thanks and maybe moving his hand away.

 

By the time some presumptuous jerk has already fondled uninvited, he has distracted his target, and also the other(s) whom she was involved with. He may also have pissed off his target and/or her partner and playmates.

 

Most of the time, these guys don't even try to make eye contact. They want to creep up on someone. I believe they think it improves their odds of getting "in", thinking the woman will be too distracted, or caught off guard, and the odds of him not being turned away will increase. Realizing that's probably why they didn't bother looking me in the face first, that only pisses me off more.

[Rascal 17]

What I relayed was a reference to a real situation that happened.... It obviously was "accepted" as it was viewed.... as a desire for more attention! Nobody dragged me out of anywhere.... and nobody needed to. I was acting as a member of the party and responding to what seemed to be a request for more attention. Does one have to get an oral invitation? when it's obvious? .... Now I wasn't saying it was obvious in the situation I responded to.... I was saying that it was "possible" that it was! Wow, how you guys can misconstrue something to your own end....

[Tybee Swing 286]

Now I wasn't saying it was obvious in the situation I responded to.... I was saying that it was "possible" that it was! Wow, how you guys can misconstrue something to your own end....

 

I realized just what you meant. I realize that you weren't sure, but that you thought it was "possible", so you made your move. You scored, rather than getting slapped or kicked out. Congratulations to you. :rollseyes

 

My point was that you still presumed. I also answered your several questions, from my personal perspective. (In a nutshell, eye contact first.) If you don't want real answers, don't pose questions.

[ShellyM 0]

Yep you guessed it--another married lesbian!

How should I have handled this situation? and how do I handle a similar situation in the future?

 

OP,

Remember that being dumb extends into swinging. I think you handled it well. You immediately stopped what you were doing and asked him who he was. Your b/f was great as well in letting him know that he was uninvited and unwelcome.

 

Shelly

[rpu3 630]

Wow, how you guys can misconstrue something to your own end....

 

I didn't misconstrue a thing... personally, I found your story quite disconcerting with all your LOLs interspersed with your description of situations in which you didn't ask permission - you presumed and assumed. You posted your story and take on the situation - you opened yourself to our take on your story. Sorry it wasn't what you were hoping for.

 

I personally found your "I couldn't get my eyes off that delicious looking tail wagging around in front of me! lol I took the assumption that she was willing" appalling. And your "he was still breathing hard with her legs still splayed, recuperating and I had this very strong desire to go over to finish the job he left undone! .... I refrained, but only because I was also worn out!" is equally appalling. No wonder my spouse feels I have to get dressed and go with him to go get a soda or drink after we play around at the club. He can't leave me behind to chill if there are people who think that the job has been left undone and needs finishing just because he left to get water or clothing or went to the bathroom!

 

The point is that you shouldn't be assuming a damn thing and we shouldn't have to worry about what our activities could be conveying to the uninvolved! The OP doesn't need to consider what the offending jackass might be thinking and how he views her ass or her activities. The bottom line is he was not invited to play, he had no right to touch her, and clearly it interfered with at least 4 peoples' good time.

 

And as to misconstruing things "to our own end", you've clearly never been a woman and dealt with the threat of sexual assault or sexual harassment or having your interest in sex construed as "willing to do anything and anyone". The last thing I ever want to experience at a club or party is what uninvited and unwanted contact by a stranger just because said stranger thinks it's okay to do so because of the nature of environment and because my ass or legs were up in the air. Partners or spouses shouldn't have to play bodyguard every minute they are in the club.

 

Good for you, I guess, if it all worked out for you in your scenarios. Had it been me, you'd be lucky if I only kicked your ass, if I managed to beat my husband to it.

 

Women have the right to say who and when - at all times. It would be quite respectful to not assume but to ask or wait for the signal. Is it really that freakin' hard?

[rpu3 630]

You know - if you threaten some guys with dragging them around by their naughty-bits, they might just take you up on it

 

Whatever works to get the offending jerks out of my space to make my experience more enjoyable!

[Spoomonkey 421]

Whatever works to get the offending jerks out of my space to make my experience more enjoyable!

 

You're good people...

 

 

Spoomonkey

[Swing*8701 887]

Ed here-- If anyone did that to my wife,Susan, he'd better hope I drag his tail out of the room before she castrated him, then dragged his tail out of the room.

 

What you did was great and I'd have informed the host too.

[ShellyM 0]

Rascal,

I just read your post about being in the small orgy and assuming permission.

Number one, had I been the one with the derriere in the air wagging as you call it and you would have done that I would have quickly sat up making sure I took half of you with me. I ALWAYS ask before I begin touching. It takes 1/2 of a second to catch her eye and ask her "may I touch you". Thats what both Jay and I do, whether we are in a party or not. NOW. We have 2 couples that we play with frequently. In this situation its different of course. I'm talking about playing in a group of people that we do not know well. You cannot assume that just because my ass is in the air I want a dick stuck in it at that particular moment. Its MY ass, and I would appreciate at least the courtesy of being asked. Just my opinion, but to avoid any situations if I were you I'd start asking.

Shelly

[iapr 24]

A couple things - first I really don't think there is a need for threats or violence as long as a simple "I don't play with people I don't know" or " we would like some privacy right now" or "we only play with people we invited" will work 99.9999% of the time. If people get mad or aggressive when it isn't required it just ruins the mood for everyone. Now if people continue to try to get physical after being told "no" in no uncertain terms then yes the gloves can come off if they need to but I am willing to be bet that the person in question as well as Rascal are not bad people and are not wanting to cause any problems or to hurt anyone's feelings or make anyone uncomfortable. They probably just made some wrong assumptions or maybe even had some unrealistic expectations of what swinging is.

 

And in speaking of Rascal I think Rascal actually made a very important contribution to this thread in that he was open and honest in what his thoughts were and what actions he took in situation similar to that of the OP. Now I do not get me wrong, I do believe his actions were inappropriate and luckily for him it ended up ok but it could have easily turned ugly real fast.

 

The reason I think he made an important contribution is that I think there are probably a lot of guys out there that make the same assumptions that he does. While it is totally wrong to assume that if some is "...wagging their tail around.." that that is an invitation or that if you start to play with someone's ass and they don't resist that that is also an invitation but we all do need to keep in mind that there are obviously people out there that do consider ok. While it happens that Rascal is a "dreaded single male" the offending party in the OPs situation is a male half of a couple and I am not even sure that the "married lesbian" issue is a factor here. What I think is at issue here is that there are probably a lot of guys (AND WOMEN) that think like Rascal and assume that since it is a group type situation that anything goes.

 

What this underscores is that we all have to be prepared for such situations to occur and to have a preplan in place on how to deal with it when it does occur. I do believe the OP and her partner handled it quite well. The behaviour was stopped, no one got into any kind of fight and the party wasn't spoiled for all and it doesn't seem like there are any hard feelings.

What I think people need to realize is that this kind of thing IS going to occur from time to time and if they have a simple plan to deal with it all of angst can be avoided.

[rpu3 630]

A couple things - first I really don't think there is a need for threats or violence as long as a simple "I don't play with people I don't know" or " we would like some privacy right now" or "we only play with people we invited" will work 99.9999% of the time. If people get mad or aggressive when it isn't required it just ruins the mood for everyone.

 

If an unknown person is inappropriate with me, especially uninvited, I generally don't say "I'm going to kick your ass". At least not at first. But if someone tries to mount up or touch or do anything in which he or she was not an invited party, I'm not going to waste time to utter polite phrases such as these - I'm pushing him or her away or abruptly removing myself from the situation. I'm not going to analyze whether that approach is required or not or if it is overly aggressive. I value my safety too much to worry much about ruining the mood or coming off too strong. And this is probably the reason why we prefer not to be in the group or exhibition rooms, but instead in the locked rooms.

 

Yes, Rascal's description was quite interesting and a lesson learned to be sure. It certainly reiterates why we have to be reasonably "on guard" in club and party situations at times. Rascal's post certainly evoked a visceral reaction out of a few of us, and he got a visceral response even though very few people resort to violence. Just because there isn't a need for violence (and really, when was the last time you saw a physical altercation at a club or party?), it doesn't stop me (and apparently others) from thinking, "I'm going to kick ass if someone violates me or my wife or husband."

 

While Rascal's post is chock full of information to be used, I (and evidently others) are being blunt in response to his disclosure. We may not physically kick his ass (as I said I'd be inclined to react), but that is the immediate thought generated by inappropriate behavior for me, at least.

 

As such, I think there's value in expressing just that in response to Rascal's post. We have to be on guard. Others shouldn't assume. There are lessons for all here. I'd like to think that Rascal might walk away from the response to his post with an understanding as to how his actions might be viewed by a good portion of those at a club or party. Assuming and presuming might not work out in his favor the next time.

[iapr 24]

If an unknown person is inappropriate with me, especially uninvited, I generally don't say "I'm going to kick your ass". At least not at first. But if someone tries to mount up or touch or do anything in which he or she was not an invited party, I'm not going to waste time to utter polite phrases such as these -QUOTE]

 

 

Why not??? And why are you assuming it would be a waste of time?

 

Don't get me wrong I am not talking about some stranger coming up and aggressively manhandling you or making some kind of attempted rape. In those instances yes a knee to the crotch may be just the ticket. Believe me I am no pacifist or liberal tree hugger peacenik by any means. If an ass needs to be kicked I'm all for kicking it.

 

 

What I am saying is that in many if not most instances similar to what the OP is describing it is probably not a predator or rapist that is trying to force himself on anyone but rather someone who has unrealistic expectations or has misread or even completely imagined some kind of signal (ie Rascal and the tail wagging) . In the vast majority of cases such as this a simple, unambiguous and firm yet polite "no thank you" will probably suffice just fine and then everyone can get back to the buisiness at hand (or mouth as the case may be:lol: )

 

Now if after that someone still doesn't get the message and is intent on still getting physical then yes one has the right to escalate to whatever level of intervention is necessary to protect themself up to and including deadly force if that it turns into that and the guns and knives start coming out. This is just a simple use of force protocol as practiced by every law enforcement agency in the country and that is to use the minimum amount of force level needed to bring the situation under control.

 

If a serious face with eye to eye contact makes them back down and move away why say anything at all? If a simple "no thank you" will work why say "get your stinking hands off me you sick perverted asshole!" If they walk away after the asshole comment then why get physical at all? If that doesn't work but a shove does then why slap them? If the slap works then why kick them in the nuts? and so on and so on.

 

I agree with you in that I have never seen a physical altercation at a lifestyle venue although working in emergency services for over 20 years I have seen a million of them at vanilla clubs. the reason I bring this up at all is two-fold, one is that the thread was starting to sound pretty confrontational and violent and confrontation and violence are not why we are in the lifestyle.

 

In most instances confrontations start off unintentional and without initial malice but become confrontational when someone unnecessarily uses more force and intervention than what is needed. When you unnecessarily skip one of the levels of intervention it escalates the confrontation.

 

The other reason I brought this up and the reason I refered to Rascals post is that these situations ARE going to happen from time to time, you can bet your last dollar on it that it will. If people are mentally prepared for that and have some kind of preplan in place for dealing with it they are much more likely to handle it in a reasonable manner rather than dragging someone out of a club by their genitals when they don't have to.

[ShellyM 0]

iapr,

I see the point you are making, and I am sure that rascal is a wonderful person. But you have to realize that there is etiquette. In my opinion I should not have to say no thank you AFTER the fact. If my ass is up in the air and I am clearly busy playing with someone else that does not give you the right to come up to me and feel that you can enter my body. Sorry, and I may be wrong or hypersensitive. Thats like a man giving oral to a woman with him ass in the air...and I walk up with a dildo and put it in his ass. I don't think I would be received very well. Sorry, but you need to really ask. NOW like I said. If this is a woman that he has played with before and knows well, thats different. But I took it as he did not know that lady in an intimate manner. I don't know, but I disagree. I probably WILL say yes, and we have a fantastic time. But the point is this: This is MY body, and you need to get my consent before you feel that you can do something like that.

Shelly

[iapr 24]

iapr,

I see the point you are making, and I am sure that rascal is a wonderful person. But you have to realize that there is etiquette. In my opinion I should not have to say no thank you AFTER the fact. If my ass is up in the air and I am clearly busy playing with someone else that does not give you the right to come up to me and feel that you can enter my body. Sorry, and I may be wrong or hypersensitive. Thats like a man giving oral to a woman with him ass in the air...and I walk up with a dildo and put it in his ass. I don't think I would be received very well. Sorry, but you need to really ask. NOW like I said. If this is a woman that he has played with before and knows well, thats different. But I took it as he did not know that lady in an intimate manner. I don't know, but I disagree. I probably WILL say yes, and we have a fantastic time. But the point is this: This is MY body, and you need to get my consent before you feel that you can do something like that.

Shelly

 

 

You are 100% correct and I will also add to that that even if someone has been with someone before that does not give them the right to take liberties. Just because someone has been with someone in the past that does not mean that they want to be with them at another time. Honestly, I really don't think the actual rules change one bit for someone that you have been with in the past vs someone you have not met.

 

I also like your dildo in the butt analogy and think that is an awesome way to make the idea sink home for some people! That is a good one, mind if I use it from time to time?

 

You will not get any arguement from me on any of the points you made.

 

Here is the catch though, we do not live in a perfect world and not everyone is up on their etiquette and even when people are trying to be polite and curtious they can misinturpret signs or imagine signs when none are really present. When you take an environment that is sexually charged and exciting and people are dressed to the nines and there is a lot of flirting and dirty dancing and various forms of subtle and overt sexual behaviour and then you throw in a little bit of alcohol to boot things are going to happen and people are going to make mistakes. That is just a fact of swinger life.

 

Human sexuality is a very complex and dynamic thing and it cannot be controlled to a degree that is 100% comfortable for everyone. I think we all can agree on one thing here and that is never assume permission to join in. Unless you have been overtly invited to join you must ask before making any kind of physical contact.

 

Then along with that the point that I was trying to make is that everyone needs to realize that this is not a perfect world and that at times people are going to make inappropriate assumptions and try to join when not invited. It shouldn't happen and in a perfect world it wouldn't happen but in the REAL world it WILL happen now and then. My point is to realize it will happen at times and be prepared to deal with it in a manner in which does not cause any more impact or disruption than what it needs to.

[rpu3 630]

Why not??? And why are you assuming it would be a waste of time?

 

Don't get me wrong I am not talking about some stranger coming up and aggressively manhandling you or making some kind of attempted rape. In those instances yes a knee to the crotch may be just the ticket. Believe me I am no pacifist or liberal tree hugger peacenik by any means. If an ass needs to be kicked I'm all for kicking it.

 

What I am saying is that in many if not most instances similar to what the OP is describing it is probably not a predator or rapist that is trying to force himself on anyone but rather someone who has unrealistic expectations or has misread or even completely imagined some kind of signal (ie Rascal and the tail wagging) . In the vast majority of cases such as this a simple, unambiguous and firm yet polite "no thank you" will probably suffice just fine and then everyone can get back to the buisiness at hand (or mouth as the case may be:lol: )

 

When I say I'm not going to waste time (I didn't say "waste of time"), I mean, in the time that it takes to say a few words, there could be a hand or other part in one of my body parts. I am not going to allow that to happen. The very fact that a person touched me without permission means they have gone too far already. And the point is going to be made by my activity stopping and by my immediate removal or either their hands/body parts from my body or by my moving myself out of the situation. I'm not going to talk about it - it's an immediate, almost instinctual reaction. Ruined mood or perception be damned. I am not here to teach manners at that particular moment. I protect myself and then protect my feelings about this activity first and foremost.

 

In any case, my response to your post is nothing more than while you maintain that a certain action would be fine 99% of the time, I maintain that it's still a stranger, it's still not cool with me, and I'm not tempering my instinct to immediately stop such behavior with a few words polite - I feel safer by pushing their hands or their body away. It makes the same point - simple, unambiguous and just as direct as words, even a bit more quickly than words. We are two different genders with two different set of life experiences behind each of us that influences each of our reactions. We are going to end up continuing to disagree because my personal perception is that if a stranger does this, it's already escalated and it is not my fault and I am certainly within my right to remove their hands or whatever immediately. And that's usually sufficient in the few instances where we've had a problem.

 

While I agree that most at a club or party are probably not predators or rapists, the fact remains that if I don't know them and I didn't invite them into the chosen activity, they are a stranger. I don't care if it's a club and they are likely not a predator or rapist. They are still a stranger, they are still not welcome to touch or anything without invitation just because we are in this environment rather than the outside world.

 

Interesting discussion, in any case. I think we do agree on the point of basic niceties such as "permission" should be observed.

[iapr 24]

When I say I'm not going to waste time (I didn't say "waste of time"), I mean, in the time that it takes to say a few words, there could be a hand or other part in one of my body parts. I am not going to allow that to happen. The very fact that a person touched me without permission means they have gone too far already. And the point is going to be made by my activity stopping and by my immediate removal or either their hands/body parts from my body or by my moving myself out of the situation. I'm not going to talk about it - it's an immediate, almost instinctual reaction. Ruined mood or perception be damned. I am not here to teach manners at that particular moment. I protect myself and then protect my feelings about this activity first and foremost.

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

I see your point now and agree with you on that one. If it is already in the process of happening the time to act is now and whatever it takes to bring it under control is warrented. Thanks for elaborating more.

 

I guess as a guy I am not always wondering if someone is going to come up behind me and try to stick something in me so my mind just doesn't think in those terms. And also since I do try to have at least a few scruples I can't fathom sneaking up behind some woman I have never met and trying to stick something into her as well so I was thinking more in terms of coming up and fondling etc etc so my apologies if I wasn't "getting it" as far as what the level of encroachment was.

 

This still does fit into what I was saying though in that you gotta do what you gotta do to keep yourself safe. All I am saying is be aware that this is a real possibility and to be prepared for it to occur and if it does occur do what you have to do but try to not do more than what it takes to make the behaviour stop.

[jdtpcouple 32]

Turned out he is part of a couple whose wife is looking for women only. (Yep you guessed it--another married lesbian!) /QUOTE]

 

Glad to know I'm not the only one out there:) Of course the difference with me is that I also desire watching my husband with the other woman.

 

So if I am doing the math right, the "married lesbian" made her husband a "married single"?

 

Love the math...I wonder if she's being selfish, or he's "cheating" on his own. Maybe he cleverly waits for her to be otherwise occupied & sneaks off instead of communicating his desires to be with women too. If my husband disappeared while I was with a woman to go get action without me I'd be hurt & upset. But same room play is our personal boundary I guess.

 

If my tail is pointed outward in a direction where someone could approach it, that is not an invitation.

 

Oh I so agree with that! Exhibitionism is being turned on by others watching - not acting. One may really like to "wag their tail" without liking the idea of a complete stranger helping themselves.

 

If I'm so engrossed in what I'm doing that I'm swaying, that's not an invitation.

 

Once again we see eye to eye. I tend to focus on my pleasure & the person I am pleasing & tune everything else out. In our 6some I can tell you what I did with my husband or either of the two women, but when he told me after that both the other men came twice I was so surprised. I hadn't paid attention.

 

"I don't play with people I don't know" or " we would like some privacy right now" or "we only play with people we invited"

 

Thanks for the polite lines. I can't explain how much I appreciate this because I want to be "nice" when saying no & tend to freeze up & not know what to say. Although I haven't had any similar experiences yet, you have relieved some of my anxiety about them cuz I feel more prepared to deal with it if I already know what I'm going to say (before I punch the jerk in the face...lol j/k)

 

Ok we are brand new to swinging and after carefully reading all the response I have one question:

 

Is there any expectation/obligation on the male she was orally pleasing to wave the guy away before he started touching?

 

I noticed the b/f took action to get rid of the guy, but why didn't the guy she was with let her know during the man's approach? I realize it may have all happened too fast in this particular instance, but I noticed a lack of conversation about the responsibility (if any) of the guy she was servicing. I'd love to hear all your thoughts on this.

[Tybee Swing 286]

I think Rascal actually made a very important contribution to this thread in that he was open and honest in what his thoughts were and what actions he took in situation similar to that of the OP. Now I do not get me wrong, I do believe his actions were inappropriate and luckily for him it ended up ok but it could have easily turned ugly real fast.

 

The reason I think he made an important contribution is that I think there are probably a lot of guys out there that make the same assumptions that he does. While it is totally wrong to assume that if some is "...wagging their tail around.." that that is an invitation or that if you start to play with someone's ass and they don't resist that that is also an invitation but we all do need to keep in mind that there are obviously people out there that do consider ok.

 

I agree with you on this point. Rascal not only described what he does, but why he does it. The latter was the most helpful of all, because it shows us the mentality of these guys. The ass was up, it was in a position that it could be approached (non-defensive), and it was "wagging" at him. In another case, the woman was on her back with her legs "splayed", which he viewed as an invitation. The mere fact that he viewed this as some sort of invitation or entitlement says volumes. Knowing the mind of guys like this is what's important, and being aware that they're in the clubs we go to. I think that Rascal, and others like him, read into the scene what they want. They are not thinking with their head. They are horny, they see what they want, and they read into it what they want to.

 

I think that the other responses in this thread are important contributions, too. Thousands of people end up reading these threads. Hopefully, some of the people who've been victims of this will know they have a right to not accept this, and hopefully, some of the uninvited aggressors will learn something from this, too.

 

What I think people need to realize is that this kind of thing IS going to occur from time to time and if they have a simple plan to deal with it all of angst can be avoided.

 

I agree with you, we all need to be aware that this kind of thing IS going to happen. I'd rather avoid it. The way that I plan ahead for this is to be on the defensive for it. Looking around, staying aware of who's around me and where they're positioned (non-play partners), having my husband watching for me, too. To have an advance plan is to plan to avoid the affront in the first place. Unfortunately, staying on the defensive puts a damper on the whole experience. What makes me angry - that I even have to be defensive. If these aggressive, entitled bastards didn't see "invitations" in whatever they see which they want, we wouldn't have to be defensive.

 

...I am willing to be bet that the person in question as well as Rascal are not bad people and are not wanting to cause any problems or to hurt anyone's feelings or make anyone uncomfortable. They probably just made some wrong assumptions or maybe even had some unrealistic expectations of what swinging is.

 

I agree that many of them have wrong assumptions and unrealistic expectations, but I believe that they're worse than you think. The way Rascal described it - how turned-on he was when he made his move, describing her position and how inviting it was - and he used several examples like this - speaks volumes. The woman may have been completely unaware of him, and yet he felt he was invited. Rapists and stalkers also see "invitations" that aren't there, in the same way.

 

Do the creeps in clubs want to hurt feelings or make anyone uncomfortable? No, they just want to fuck. They're not thinking about feelings - it's not on their mind. They see, they get turned on, they touch, they fuck. The only feelings they're concerned with are their own, should they be rejected. I believe that a lot of them are trying to avoid being turned down by deliberately not asking her or making eye contact. They figure they'll just sneak up and take it, and if they don't come up against resistance, it's okay.

 

They will only learn to behave differently if they are dealt with at least somewhat harshly. I think that they need at least a glare and some FIRM words. It needs to be made very clear to them. Why not genteel responses? Because this kind of guy will just move on to the next woman and do the same thing to her, because he doesn't "get it" with a genteel no-thanks. In some cases, he'll make another approach to the same woman who gave the genteel response (it's happened to me). If we believe that "fondle first, ask questions later" is totally inappropriate, then treat these guys as if their actions are totally inappropriate.

[Tybee Swing 286]

I mean, in the time that it takes to say a few words, there could be a hand or other part in one of my body parts. I am not going to allow that to happen. The very fact that a person touched me without permission means they have gone too far already.

.... I am not here to teach manners at that particular moment.

 

Dito

[Tybee Swing 286]

Hi jdtpcouple,

 

Thanks for the polite lines. I can't explain how much I appreciate this because I want to be "nice" when saying no & tend to freeze up & not know what to say. Although I haven't had any similar experiences yet, you have relieved some of my anxiety about them cuz I feel more prepared to deal with it if I already know what I'm going to say (before I punch the jerk in the face...lol j/k)

 

I relate to being uncomfortable and not knowing what to say. I used to really struggle with this, too! I think that very nice, polite responses are perfect for when someone is asking, and you are turning them down for play. However, if they are approaching you physically, fondling you to see if you'll object or if you'll let them proceed -- there's no polite line or gentle response for this, in my opinion.

 

Ok we are brand new to swinging and after carefully reading all the response I have one question:

 

Is there any expectation/obligation on the male she was orally pleasing to wave the guy away before he started touching?

 

I noticed the b/f took action to get rid of the guy, but why didn't the guy she was with let her know during the man's approach? I realize it may have all happened too fast in this particular instance, but I noticed a lack of conversation about the responsibility (if any) of the guy she was servicing. I'd love to hear all your thoughts on this.

 

I wouldn't expect a playmate necessarily to come to my defense in the same way my spouse would. This is because the playmate may not know me very well at all. He may not know what I want or don't want. It's highly unlikely that in a club setting like that, we'd have an in-depth conversation that would include all possible scenarios and what I'd expect of him. It's unrealistic - we only have that depth of understanding with our own spouse, or maybe sometimes with very close and longterm playmates. So, we really have to watch out for ourselves, and our mates help look out for us.

 

Depending on the situation, if I was going down on someone like that, and my backside was unprotected and/or vulnerable to approach, I guess I might ask him to be on the lookout for me and wave off approachers. (I haven't done that, but I'm always aware of positioning now in those settings.) More likely though, I'd change our positions so that my backside wasn't open to the room that way. It's much easier to "keep your back to the wall", so that you can focus on what you're doing, relax, and have more fun.

[FloridaFlirt 15]

Ok we are brand new to swinging and after carefully reading all the response I have one question:

 

Is there any expectation/obligation on the male she was orally pleasing to wave the guy away before he started touching?

 

I noticed the b/f took action to get rid of the guy, but why didn't the guy she was with let her know during the man's approach? I realize it may have all happened too fast in this particular instance, but I noticed a lack of conversation about the responsibility (if any) of the guy she was servicing. I'd love to hear all your thoughts on this.

 

Original poster here....going to answer your question....

 

The fellow I was pleasing was enjoying it so much he was oblivious to anything else going on. And although he would have said something to this guy had he known (he's a close friend and lover), it would not have been his responsibility to do so. He's quite chivalrous, and was onhand to back up my boyfriend if need be.

 

Welcome to the lifestyle--always exciting!

[FloridaFlirt 15]

Just wanted to clear up a couple of things from my original post:

 

1. Until I felt his hands on my ass, I did not even know this guy existed. For him to touch me without asking is WRONG, period.

 

2. We were INVITED to be in a room with others, therefore we had no right to extend that invite to anyone else.

 

3. I found out after the fact that he approached three other women at the party the same way. That makes him a predator, IMO, and will no longer be invited to our parties. His wife will have to find her lesbians elsewhere, I reckon.

 

Now, with all of that being said: Had this been a smaller house party (five or six couples as opposed to fifteen like at this party), and had all of the people at the party been people I was comfortable with, and wouldn't mind being approached by, I would not have reacted the same way at all. I really kinda like a group scene under those circumstances...

[Tybee Swing 286]

FlFlirt, you make such a good point. When the people involved are allowing themselves enjoy what's happening to the fullest, they're not looking around for encroachers to ward off, to keep them at bay before they can get their uninvited hands on people. We all should be able to fully relax and enjoy what we're doing.

 

Maybe the ultimate would be to hire our own bodyguard to be the sentry on duty while we, our mates and playmates relax and play. If Paris Hilton has guards, why not us?

[FloridaFlirt 15]

Maybe the ultimate would be to hire our own bodyguard to be the sentry on duty while we, our mates and playmates relax and play. If Paris Hilton has guards, why not us?

 

We've actually considered something like that for our play group. The original idea was more to keep control of people that might drink too much and get rowdy, but I can see where someone wandering around making sure the play areas are secure and to have someone to report to.

 

You've given me something to bring to our group owners. Thanks!

[iapr 24]

 

 

 

I agree with you, we all need to be aware that this kind of thing IS going to happen. I'd rather avoid it. The way that I plan ahead for this is to be on the defensive for it. Looking around, staying aware of who's around me and where they're positioned (non-play partners), having my husband watching for me, too. To have an advance plan is to plan to avoid the affront in the first place. Unfortunately, staying on the defensive puts a damper on the whole experience. What makes me angry - that I even have to be defensive. If these aggressive, entitled bastards didn't see "invitations" in whatever they see which they want, we wouldn't have to be defensive.

 

 

 

Do the creeps in clubs want to hurt feelings or make anyone uncomfortable? No, they just want to fuck. They're not thinking about feelings - it's not on their mind. They see, they get turned on, they touch, they fuck. The only feelings they're concerned with are their own, should they be rejected. I believe that a lot of them are trying to avoid being turned down by deliberately not asking her or making eye contact. They figure they'll just sneak up and take it, and if they don't come up against resistance, it's okay.

 

They will only learn to behave differently if they are dealt with at least somewhat harshly. I think that they need at least a glare and some FIRM words. It needs to be made very clear to them. Why not genteel responses? Because this kind of guy will just move on to the next woman and do the same thing to her, because he doesn't "get it" with a genteel no-thanks. In some cases, he'll make another approach to the same woman who gave the genteel response (it's happened to me). If we believe that "fondle first, ask questions later" is totally inappropriate, then treat these guys as if their actions are totally inappropriate.

 

 

You make a lot of great points here. I agree with you that it is important to remain vigilant and aware of your surroundings and that if you are on the lookout you will be able to trouble coming before it pounces on you and will be able to deal with it better. And unfortunately I also agree with you in that it does detract from the enjoyment and that we shouldn't HAVE to always be on the lookout. I guess in a way it is much like driving a car, it would be nice to relax and checkout the scenery and enjoy the music while on the road but the reality is we always have to reponsible for our own safety and wellbeing. Welcome to Planet Earth.

 

You make some great points regarding jerks and genteel reponses as well. My reponse to your points is that the true jerks will not get it no matter what is said and that when they are told to fuck off they will make some remark like, "I wouldn't wanna fuck a fat slut like you anyway" under their breath as they slime away to prey on someone else. My guess is these people manage to schooze themselves into a few parties and then make life miserable for enough people that they get marked pretty quick and when they realize the lifestyle is not the sexual smogesboard that they thought it would be they head back to the vanilla meat markets. What sucks is when they are gone there will always be a few more to take their place.

[Tybee Swing 286]

You're right, iapr. There will always be another creep schmoozing his way into the party before he eventually gets kicked out for bad behavior.

 

I'm really beginning to like that bodyguard idea. It would be so nice to leave the "defensive driving" to somebody else, so that we could relax and just totally enjoy the scenery.

[jdtpcouple 32]

I think that very nice, polite responses are perfect for when someone is asking, and you are turning them down for play.

Agreed completely. "Nice" respones are for someone who shows me the respect of asking first. Rejection in and of itself is not "nice" so I often get flustered at what to say. If is helpful to hear the phrases others have used to convey "thank you, but no" so I don't have to think on the spot - I'm so bad at that

 

The fellow I was pleasing was enjoying it so much he was oblivious to anything else going on.

Hooray for him, and hats off to you! Would've have been a perfect scenerio if you hadn't been so rudely interuppted.

 

He's quite chivalrous, and was onhand to back up my boyfriend if need be.

This is good to know. I think it is as important for the other men in the scene to disapprove of this kind of behavior. I do however see the point that a relative stranger would not be obligated to look out for you to the same extent as your spouse or b/f. I'm just glad there wasn't a "What's her problem?" attitude from the other guy or others at the party.

 

I found out after the fact that he approached three other women at the party the same way. That makes him a predator, IMO,

No its not just in your opinion...He didn't learn to ask after the first girl, kept at it after #2, third time it still didn't click that he needed to ASK, fourth time seals the deal. He's not a swinger, he IS a predator. (If I was his wife I'd want to get away from him too) Also, as one of the "married lesbians" out there can I just say Shame on her for leaving him unattended to prey on others. To be fair its possible she doesn't know how he acts when she's not around...possible but I doubt it, he is her husband after all.

[FloridaFlirt 15]

 

This is good to know. I think it is as important for the other men in the scene to disapprove of this kind of behavior. I do however see the point that a relative stranger would not be obligated to look out for you to the same extent as your spouse or b/f. I'm just glad there wasn't a "What's her problem?" attitude from the other guy or others at the party.

 

 

The gentleman that was the recipient of my "gift" is my steady lover and one of my closest friends. (Yep, polyamory is alive and well in my house! LOL) So had he been aware he would have come to my aid. Between him and my primary partner, I knew I was safe.