Do women share a fantasy of seeing their man with another man?

[FlaPlaya561 48]

Very popular topic, I'm still getting mail on it ...Awesome...

[mixtupcpl 169]

Mixt, I love discussions and would be happy to continue this.

 

My sense is that guys have experimented more as adults than they did awakening to their hormones. I am one who never really thought about sex with a guy at a young age. It only came to my radar when my wife expressed her fantasy and we met those willing to try it.:

 

Well... Of course I do not dispute your personal experience and can only counter with anecdotal evidence (you know you're lazy when you're too lazy to even Google something... LOL), but I'd be *shocked* to find out that any statistically significant percentage of the adult male population has had a homosexual experience as an adult and doesn't identify as gay or bi. On the other hand, I think a very large percentage of the male population experimented in their prepubescent years (I'm almost certain this one has some real scientific data floating around somewhere).

[Lascivious L&L 866]

Mixt, I understand that adult male/male sexual experiences seem rare to you. I'm sure there have been studies on it. The Kinsey studies found a significant bisexual component to male sex, but I don't remember the percentages. When you have personal experience with it, there is an element of aha! to the situation.

 

Aha! in that every male that admits to curiosity says the same thing: that they can't talk about it to anyone and just being able to discuss it with someone is a big thing. Admitting male indiscretions of the past when young and in the throes of hormones is much easier than admitting the now of curiosity. We're supposed to be adults and over that stuff. Even you believe that's true. So any of your friends who might want to discuss this curiosity know not to discuss it with you.

 

When guys know you have experience with male/male sex, when you are openly bi, they feel comfortable discussing it with you, even if they say "I don't know if I ever want to act on it." They want an understanding and experienced ear to listen. That's why it appears not to be in your circle of life, even though you might be surprised just how much it is in your circle of life but never will be admitted to you.

[mixtupcpl 169]

Well... Don't assume too much about me personally. I'm not speaking personally here. Also, a lot of these studies are controversial and questionable. I think drawing conclusions requires studying a broad aggregate.

 

End of the day, you're basically saying a big percentage of men are bi. I don't buy it. I know it's very popular in gay and bi circles to assume that a majority of men are just repressing their true selves, but I believe this is just a defense mechanism against very real, and often dangerous, prejudice. The notion that hetero male society, having always held disproportionate power, has always worked to suppress some natural, and near universal, instinct within hetero male society, just doesn't make sense. What makes a lot more sense is that most guys are straight and most straight guys are straight. What always gets me is that the possibility of this seems to *really* bother a lot of gay and bi folks to the point where they must reject it. Given the species would die out in one generation without hetero sex or massive and unnatural scientific intervention, it's pretty hard to imagine same sex attraction as more than an anomaly.

[Chicup 42]

And we would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling forum posters!

 

Well at least I now know that I am bi and my wife, who claims to be completely turned off by MM activities, secretly wants to see them and is just projecting my bias.

 

It's all so clear now.

 

Thank you Lascivious L&L, thank you for showing me the light.

 

I think I'm going to go find a nice man to have mutually satisfying oral sex with and perhaps anal if I can drop my fearful bias of having things shoved up my ass.

[DigginIt 1,132]

What would we say to a totally straight woman having sex with another woman, despite having no attraction to women at all, just to satisfy her husband? We would say it was tragic. We would say she "took one for the team". We would say it was lousy, etc. We might even say it was abusive of the husband to push her, etc.

 

 

Incredibly well put!

 

I LOVE the thought of my wife with another woman but she does it because she enjoys it, not because I want her to do it. In fact, if she did it only for that reason ... it would most likely have the opposite effect as I would feel severe guilt.

 

Getting to the point of this thread. My thoughts are that there are a lot of people that tend to believe everyone in the world thinks similarly and those that say something contrary are "in the closet" and are just suppressing their "hidden" desires and they just need someone to show them the light.

 

Um, well, my wife has absolutely no desire for the competition of who gets to suck the other guys cock. I think if you asked her she would specifically say something like: "it's too f@cking hard competing against all those other bitches, the last thing I want to do is compete against my own husband!"

 

:lol:

[Lascivious L&L 866]

Gee Mixt, I never mentioned a specific percentage. What I posted was that I was surprised. I have no idea what the percentage is.

 

But I do have some experience with straight men who are curious enough to try bi. You don't. You base your opinions on what you think ought to be the case, which shows that you are one who bases your opinion on what you want while blaming gays and bi's for doing exactly what you are doing.

 

And the aside that the human race would die out if there were as much bisexuality as I've experienced is silly to the point of absurd. Bi means both, bi men may have more sex with women than you do. Even if they didn't, there would be plenty of threesomes with straight men to impregnate the women even if they get sucked off now and then by the bi guys.

 

Chicup is a case in point of a person who is repulsed by the thought of male/male sex, yet comes into threads dealing with the subject, and can't get his head around other people experiencing very different attitudes toward male/male sex.

[mixtupcpl 169]

Gee Mixt, I never mentioned a specific percentage. What I posted was that I was surprised. I have no idea what the percentage is.

 

But I do have some experience with straight men who are curious enough to try bi. You don't. You base your opinions on what you think ought to be the case, which shows that you are one who bases your opinion on what you want while blaming gays and bi's for doing exactly what you are doing.

 

And the aside that the human race would die out if there were as much bisexuality as I've experienced is silly to the point of absurd. Bi means both, bi men may have more sex with women than you do. Even if they didn't, there would be plenty of threesomes with straight men to impregnate the women even if they get sucked off now and then by the bi guys.

 

Chicup is a case in point of a person who is repulsed by the thought of male/male sex, yet comes into threads dealing with the subject, and can't get his head around other people experiencing very different attitudes toward male/male sex.

 

Again, steer clear of assumptions about me. You really don't know what my experience is in this area; we're talking in broadly general terms here. I don't think personal feelings and experience are all that relevant, to be honest.

 

I'm not basing my opinion on what I think ought to be the case *at all*. I'm basing my opinion on what I believe *is* the case. And, as I have a scientific background and am in a scientific field, I tend to take an analytical approach.

 

View my comments as coldly clinical. I try to take an evolutionary approach to understanding behavior - putting it in the context of biology. *disclaimer - folks who don't believe in evolution feel free to tune out *

 

From really simple biological terms, asexual and same sex reproduction in humans aren't possible. Our behaviors have been shaped over tens of thousands of years and *most* of those years were spent *without* the benefit of much higher order thinking. Nature programmed us a certain way and the goal of the programming is pretty simply to keep surviving.

 

Now as modern humans we are starting to short circuit natures plan. Which is fine. But it's hard to beat nature.

 

Anyhow, this is all conjecture. Until one of us is able to pull up genuine data, peer reviewed and broadly accepted, the discussion is anecdotal.

 

Of course we could also just agree on this note... You say you don't mention percentages. Well then we are in agreement. OF COURSE I accept that there *are* men who, as adults, want to experiment. I also accept that some of these guys then realize they are bi, and conversely some realize they are VERY MUCH not bi or gay. I just don't accept that it's a really significant percentage of the male population. Your tone seems to imply that you do. If you don't, I apologize. If you are in fact saying that this happens SOMETIMES, and is a minority case, then we agree

 

But in case I didn't make it clear enough, don't assume you know where I'm coming from when it comes to *personal* experience.

[Lascivious L&L 866]

Mixt, I mean not to offend, but you made a cardinal mistake in scientific terminology, one often made and one that is a pet peeve of mine. Significant does not mean most, the majority, or more than 50%. What is considered significant depends on who is determining significance, but can be as low as 10%, 5%, or even 1%. For example I recently had hernia surgery and my surgeon quoted the failure rate at a half percent. 10 or even 5% would be significant in my opinion, half a percent is much more acceptable. But if 1% of airline flights crashed, that would be significant.

 

Nowhere have I read percentages more than around 10-20% for bisexuality. It does depend on how you define bisexuality. Is it a single sexual act? Kinsey preferred to put sexuality on a continuum, which makes sense. Using that concept makes pure heterosexuality less predominate. The range of purely and mostly hetero includes some curiosity with bisexuality even if there were no experience. And those with one teenaged experience would have to be considered not in the utterly hetero field.

 

Most people think of bisexuality as those who have experience and who enjoy it. I certainly think this is a significant number, but still a small minority. Then again we're speaking of our culture. Other cultures may have had close to a majority with some experience in bisexuality.

 

One more point. I don't base my posting on generalities or belief. My posts here have been based on personal experience. Belief is simply want clothed fancy. I have experience with "straight" men writing me in numbers that surprise me, more than one hundred in the past year, wanting to share a threesome experience that may include male/male sex. I never imagined there would be so many.

[toofartoosee 31]

Merric; I have come across this thread via my wife who posts from time to time. When she is troubled and makes a post she will clean up response e-mails quite quickly, but in this case she did not. MMMMMM.

 

We have been swinging for some four years now, almost five. And what I (we) have found is that quite a few we knew, we now know as Bi. A couple with a Bi man will not come out an admit it like a woman will. Before I move on to what I think is a discovery point which is underlying here I will say that " We have both done bi things. I said I liked it when she did it, she said not much when I did it. Strange to see her write now she not only liked it, but is fantasizing about it now. Most will admit that a double standard sucks, but we embrace them when woven into the fabric of our lives?

 

What I find the most interesting about your thread is, and I wish you had asked it at the same time is, do you have fantasies about seeing your man have sex with other man, and at what point did you start thinking about it. Because it seems to me you had a turning point from not liking your woman picking up guys, and giving them oral, and not liking it. To as you said" it growing on you". We are here, and we have chosen this path. But before we got here we had a life time of baggage, baggage we didn't even know we were carrying. Another question, are things growing on us as we move on to newer things are we letting go of old baggage that keeps us from new kinds of pleasure? What I have come to see is that for the most part it not the sex I like the most about swinging, but the way it forces us into uncomfortable conversations, and challenging situations.

 

Thanks for reading, wish you all the best.

[mixtupcpl 169]

Hmmm... Somehow lost track of this thread... I do understand the definition of significant in the scientific sense, but I just don't feel we're having any kind of scientific discussion... To me, in this context, "significant" means high enough that it is widely known and acknowledged.

 

I don't place a lot of stock in ones personal experience when it's about something anecdotal. Your personal experience is that a ton of closet bi guys have, for some reason, approached you. That's great, but I don't accept that you can then draw broad conclusions based on that. There are simply way too many variables involved.

 

What is interesting is that so often discussion about male bisexuality on the forum evolves into straight guys defending their heterosexuality. I think if you look at the comments historically, from an objective viewpoint, you'll see that the rhetoric is very often aggressive. Ranging from accusations of denial and close mindedness to homophobia.

[Lascivious L&L 866]

Mixt, that's a definition tailor made for your argument, since yours it that it is not widely known. That's my and others' point also, that if you make a point of your straightness, bi males simply aren't going to talk to you about their bi-ness. So you have no idea of the extent of bi male curiosity.

 

Your point about anecdotal information applies directly to your posting also, as the opinions you've posted are based not even on personal experience, but what you think is the case.

 

You've misinterpreted my posts several times and I've tried to correct those misinterpretation. A "ton" is a curious word to use for the number of bi or curious males. What I posted was that I have been surprised at the number who approach us as a bi couple looking for threesomes with men. You've claimed that the number of bi or curious males does not rise to significance and quickly came up with a personal rather than scientific definition of significance, tailor made to support your position. If you had any experience with bi males you'd quickly realize that the numbers reach significance in any real definition of the word.

 

The point of why the number is not widely known and acknowledged is pointed out by your attitude that those numbers simply can't be significant. Couple that with Chicup's negativity reflecting that of many uncomfortable and homophobic people, and it is easy to understand why male bisexuality or curiosity is kept silent unless in the presence of accepting people.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

 

I’ve found many other similar letters on Netscape love concerning women wanting to see their man have sex of some kind with another man. Now that men in the Vanilla and Swinger world for the most part share the fantasy/reality of actively participating in or seeing their women or any woman/women having sex with other woman/women is a fact pretty much goes without saying. So my question is do women here on swingers board share this fantasy of seeing their men have sex with other men? Seems likely this question has been broached here but I’ve not been able to find it.

This fantasy is very underrated in terms of prevalence. The misconception is that every guy wants two women to make love to one another. However, there are a lot of guys who are not thrilled by this. I don't get how it became every guy's fantasy. However, I have read many stories about women who fantasize about men making love to men. This is so underreported by the media. Personally, I am not interested in making love with men. However, that does not affect my objectivity. The bottom line is that there are women who find this fantasy appealing.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

One of the biggest fantasies of women is to watch their man have sex with another man, mostly sucking each other off. Men love to watch two women having sex together. It does not take a genius to figure a woman would enjoy watching two men having sex.

 

I agree. Unfortunately, I do not want to participate in this type of fantasy.

[mixtupcpl 169]

Mixt, that's a definition tailor made for your argument, since yours it that it is not widely known. That's my and others' point also, that if you make a point of your straightness, bi males simply aren't going to talk to you about their bi-ness. So you have no idea of the extent of bi male curiosity.

 

Your point about anecdotal information applies directly to your posting also, as the opinions you've posted are based not even on personal experience, but what you think is the case.

 

You've misinterpreted my posts several times and I've tried to correct those misinterpretation. A "ton" is a curious word to use for the number of bi or curious males. What I posted was that I have been surprised at the number who approach us as a bi couple looking for threesomes with men. You've claimed that the number of bi or curious males does not rise to significance and quickly came up with a personal rather than scientific definition of significance, tailor made to support your position. If you had any experience with bi males you'd quickly realize that the numbers reach significance in any real definition of the word.

 

The point of why the number is not widely known and acknowledged is pointed out by your attitude that those numbers simply can't be significant. Couple that with Chicup's negativity reflecting that of many uncomfortable and homophobic people, and it is easy to understand why male bisexuality or curiosity is kept silent unless in the presence of accepting people.

 

I really don't think I am misinterpreting you. I also completely agree that I am speaking anecdotally also. I mentioned that a few posts ago when I said that all of this is sort of discussion based on conjecture.

 

You're laser focusing on semantics and I'm not sure why. I use "ton" as a colloquialism. I'm not sitting here analyzing every word I'm writing as if it were a senate sub-committee meeting. This is just a casual discussion.

 

My definition of "significant" was to explain why I used it. I'm not trying to "beat" you in some sort of contest nor am I trying to discredit what you're saying. I'm simply saying that each of us have our own perspective. I fail to see how exposure to bisexual people (which you assume I don't have, which you are completely wrong about), would somehow qualify you to understand the statistical significance of bisexuality among men.

 

I'll try to make my argument VERY simple since my participation in the thread was really only triggered by a pattern I see where folks I know to be pretty level headed end up on the ropes, defending their character...

 

Are there women who have this fantasy? sure!

 

Are there women who don't? of course!

 

Is there necessarily any correlation between male and female bisexuality? not necessarily

 

Are there men who are bi or bi-curious? sure!

 

Are there men who are not? sure!

 

Does this make them homophobic, in denial, or close minded? no!

 

Should everyone live and let live? of course!

 

The only thing I would be willing to say statistically is that I do not believe that a majority of men (meaning >50% of males) are bisexual or bi-curious. I haven't done surveys. I haven't committed to research. I simply, from personal experience, don't believe that a majority of men enjoy having sex (either regularly or occasionally) with other men.

 

I can't get any more clear than the above. Feel free to pick it apart more and dive deeper into semantics, but it really doesn't make sense to do so. I'm not trying to make some gigantic, sweeping, complex point here.

[Lascivious L&L 866]

Mixt, that's the first time you've been clear about what you mean by significant = a majority, over 50%. My figure that I threw out earlier was somewhere around 10-20%, nowhere near a majority. Yet I feel strongly that is significant.

 

The reason I've held you to your words is that you've made such a point of the number being not significant. You've played with the definition of significant enough that I can only surmise it is important to you.

 

Again, my point is that bi males do not let their bi-ness be known to straights in general because of the reactions they get when they do. You've alluded several times that you have some familiarity with male bisexuality, but only in an implied way. If you do indeed have experience that bears on this discussion, be clear about it, as I have been.

 

The only thing we have here is words. Sloppiness with words in a discussion board amounts to miscommunication. My impression is that you know how to use words well. If I've been a taskmaster over your words it's because you haven't been entirely clear with them.

[M1F2KTJ 473]

I posted this in reply to another thread.

 

I had a girlfriend who wanted to see me have sex with another man like some guys want to watch their wives/girlfriends have sex with another woman. I let her use vibrators and dildos in my ass not only because I loved her and that is what made her incredibly horny but because she let me have my fantasy of watching her have sex with other guys.

 

Mostly because she got really horny using a dildo on me. It was interesting watching her "lose her mind"/"go into a trance" I don't know how to explain it. Knowing that she really liked doing it I relaxed and "got into it". It felt good but I played it up for her.

 

She tried to get us guys to have sex with each other but nobody we played with was into it.

 

I wasn't interested in doing it with another guy but I knew she really wanted to see it. She rubbed the head of our cocks together when we were in a position that she took turns sucking us. I didn't mind at first and I didn't know how the other guy felt about it. I was getting into her sucking me and it took me a while to come back "down to "earth". The other guy pulled away. She took my hand and put it on the other guys ass. I pulled away. I knew what she wanted but I also knew the other guy wasn't into having sex with another guy. We were there to give her a two guys having sex with her at the same time experience.

 

I'll admit that it felt good when she slid her finger into my ass while she sucked on my cock or when she used a vibrator or dildo. I'll admit that I'll let another guy fuck my ass because it feels really good and I would do the same for him but I would not suck another guys cock. I would probably let him suck mine but there would definitely be no "love making" especially kissing. I would NEVER initiate anything with another guy in a MMF threesome with my wife or girlfriend or would I let him do anything to me unless she specifically said that that was one of her fantasies that she wanted to see. I'll do something like that in reciprocation for my wife or girlfriend doing something for me if that is what she wanted, to a limit, but that isn't something I normally do.

[mixtupcpl 169]

Mixt, that's the first time you've been clear about what you mean by significant = a majority, over 50%. My figure that I threw out earlier was somewhere around 10-20%, nowhere near a majority. Yet I feel strongly that is significant.

 

The reason I've held you to your words is that you've made such a point of the number being not significant. You've played with the definition of significant enough that I can only surmise it is important to you.

 

Again, my point is that bi males do not let their bi-ness be known to straights in general because of the reactions they get when they do. You've alluded several times that you have some familiarity with male bisexuality, but only in an implied way. If you do indeed have experience that bears on this discussion, be clear about it, as I have been.

 

The only thing we have here is words. Sloppiness with words in a discussion board amounts to miscommunication. My impression is that you know how to use words well. If I've been a taskmaster over your words it's because you haven't been entirely clear with them.

 

OK fair enough, I can accept that... We can part as friends I think, yeah? Lovers? Maybe not? Maybe though? LOL... just playing... Anyway... good chat man... It's a tough topic.

[Guest thewriter]

Many women have a fantasy of watching her husband suck another man's cock more than most people know.