Why the bisexuality double standard in swinging?

[Beardedknight 15]

I would like to hear comments from anyone that wishes to add their thoughts without being rude or vicious about this question:

Why is there a Double Standard when it comes to Bisexuality in Swinging?

 

It is okay, if not expected, for women to be Bisexual. But when it comes to guys being Bisexual it is totally frowned on or even banned, in most "On Premise" Clubs and even in most swing groups that are not On Premise.

 

Also wondering if the thought of two men together, turns any of you women on?

 

Thanks in advance to all that reply.

[rpu3 630]

As a woman, I can say that it doesn't turn me on. That's just me, though, and everyone's mileage varies.

 

I am not inclined to get in on this topic, only because I thought we just had a pretty big discussion about the double standard issues just a couple weeks ago. This thread is just one of the few discussions on this very topic - I know there was a big discussion about this back in February, too.

 

Given the previous discussions on this, I guess I'd be more inclined that since you are asking, what is your take as to the why on the double standard?

[Spoomonkey 421]

Beardedknight said:

Why is there a Double Standard when it comes to Bisexuality in Swinging?

 

First, there is a clear mechanical difference between FF sex and MM sex. There is also a perceived difference in the role that dominance and submission would play.

 

That said, the double standard in swinging is no different from (and is actually reflective of) the double standard in the rest of society. People (women included) tend to appreciate female bisexuality more than male bisexuality. You see this in everything from pornography to college frat parties.

 

I think it is interesting that this subject gets so much discussion and is so misunderstood. Just as being a swinger doesn't mean I am more interested in wearing leather chaps and incorporating a TENS unit in my sexual play, being a swinger doesn't mean I am more interested in bisexuality. Each person comes into swinging with different interests and comfort zones and the only thing we have in common is the interest in exploring sexual expression with people other than (or in addition to) our SO.

 

On a less philosophical level, a double standard exists simply because of majority rule. The majority is drawn to FF bisexuality and turned off by MM bisexuality. And since most clubs tend to cater to the interests of the majority, you see a sensible double standard develop.

[tribbles 490]

a double standard exists simply because of majority rule

 

Good answer.

[sexcupid 809]

I am not sure that it turns me on per se...but it is intriguing on some level. Why? For precisely the fact that most oppose it I guess. So would I like to see it? Probably. Would Jeff do it just to satisfy my curiosity? Eh, probably not.

 

For me it would be one of those been there, done that, seen that kind of things.

 

As for the other comments of why bi-fems are more commonly expected or accepted. It does have to do with societal norms and expectations. Overall it is ok for women to touch each other. Holding hands, hugging, walking close, even a friendly peck on the cheek as a greeting or goodbye. How many men do you see doing these things with out thinking, 'bet he's gay'...yet most do not assume that women are gay when doing these things, it's just the way females are.

 

And I have to disagree with Spoo on the porn and college frat house comment. Most girls in those settings (hell, even in a vanilla dance club setting), do things to get attention. If grinding up against another girl and kissing her gets the attention of the guys...or gets them a repeat invite to the parties...well...

 

My take on girl/girl or fmf porn is just the fact that plenty of men fantasize about those things in particular and men still are the primary audience that porn is aimed at, so why not make what sells? There are some distributers that make more female friendly porn (and I know there are quite a few threads about that on the board)...but for the most part, it's still targeting men as the primary audience.

 

Now with all that said, OP...we have seen quite a few couples that advertise locally with bi-males. Not sure how much luck they are having on the site, but they are out there.

 

Maria

[Spoomonkey 421]

sexcupid said:

And I have to disagree with Spoo on the porn and college frat house comment. Most girls in those settings (hell, even in a vanilla dance club setting), do things to get attention. If grinding up against another girl and kissing her gets the attention of the guys...or gets them a repeat invite to the parties...well...

 

Maria

 

I am confused as to what part of my comment you disagree with. I said that it was more prevalent - I did not give a motive for its prevalence. I know that my daughter kissed another girl because her boyfriend wanted to see it (at a frat party, hence my remark). She did not enjoy it and has decided that she is completely heterosexual.

 

My point was - no one is asking men to make out at frat parties (generally speaking, unless there is a pledge going on or the fraternity is Delta Lambda Phi)

 

I would also suggest that many women in the lifestyle have sex with other women because they enjoy it, not because they are expected to do so.

 

So again - not quite sure what part of my comment you disagree with. Can you clarify or did I simply need to clarify what I previously wrote?

[SCcpl40 74]

Go to the CDC and read about the risk of AIDS in male bisexuals. That should answer your question.

[BIGGUY138 14]

A man Being bi-sexual is not manly and it is rather disgusting to me personally, oposites attract but women are so lovely and delicious men or women can love them but what does a man have that can attract another man unless they are unsure of their image of themselves as a man.

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

Spoomonkey said:

...a double standard exists simply because of majority rule. The majority is drawn to FF bisexuality and turned off by MM bisexuality. And since most clubs tend to cater to the interests of the majority, you see a sensible double standard develop.

This is the simplest way of looking at what is, is.

 

Beardedknight ~

 

It may not seem fair, or ring "equality" but the double standard exists and probably will for a long time to come.

 

This topic always feels like a battle between men of differing views and comfort levels when discussing this topic. The discussions wear me out because they seem to go around in circles.

 

Beardedknight said:

Also wondering if the thought of two men together, turns any of you women on?

The idea of watching two men having sex has interest for me, but I have rarely given it thought. When I have envisioned two men together it is a very specific fantasy, so much so that it I expect it will always remain a fantasy.

[sexcupid 809]

People (women included) tend to appreciate female bisexuality more than male bisexuality.

 

So again - not quite sure what part of my comment you disagree with. Can you clarify or did I simply need to clarify what I previously wrote?

 

Spoo...I quoted the part of your first post that I did not totally agree with, but in your second post you more than clarified your position, so thank you for that.

 

And of course frat boys want to see girls kissing each other...with all the GGW videos and the fact that some girls do it for the 'shock' factor (or just the attention getting factor)...one of my friends had a daughter who went through a bi-phase in h.s...and it was primarily for the shock factor of telling mom that she liked girls and the attention they got at school by holding hands and kissing in the hallways.

 

Altho I did go to the DLP site and did not see anything about frat boys kissing each other...lmao Maybe I need to look again, it was just a cursory reading.

 

In my previous post I was not implying that bi-women in the lifestyle only have sex with other women because it is expected of them. Although, plenty of play situations we have been in, everyone just seems to assume the women are all bi...the world hasn't come to a screeching halt if another woman touches me, but I don't find it any more erotic or exciting than having a man touch me...but I know that some do...to each their own.

 

Thanks for the clarification in your 2nd post!

 

Maria

[Beardedknight 15]

Sorry, didn't see the other discussions on this topic. Thank you for pointing them out. I will read them.

 

My thoughts are that the double standard stems from society as a whole and the way people are raised concerning this topic.

 

Just like the comment about a Bi-male not being manly (by Bigguy138). That is such a Homophobic comment that it is funny, to me. Nobody that knows me would not describe me as unmanly.

 

And the comment by "SCcpl40 Re: Why the Double Standard?

Go to the CDC and read about the risk of AIDS in male bisexuals. That should answer your question." Makes me shake my head. And the reason for that is that anyone who does not use condoms in this lifestyle is not only having sex with the currant sex partner but with everyone else they have had sex with (with no protection). And it really amazes me how many people we have met that do not use condoms, have even had a few couples who decline having sex with us becuase we require everyone to use condoms.

 

But back to the topic, I think that Spoo and Maria both said it better than I can so, I will just say THANKS for all the comments.

 

Maybe someday we can all be accepting of EVERYONE, no mater what their sexuality is.

 

Thanks again for the comments.

 

Given the previous discussions on this, I guess I'd be more inclined that since you are asking, what is your take as to the why on the double standard?

[WesternSwing 504]

First, I think the double standard is there because quite simply those that are in the lifestyle are really just a slice of general society, which also views FF as cool and MM not so much.

 

Secondly, we have found that male bisexuality within the lifestyle to be more common that what appears on the surface. I can think of a half dozen men we know are "situationally bi" but their online profile says "straight". Why? Because this double standard does exist and they don't want to be branded as such or be passed-up by others as a couple since the prevalent idea is that they would be bi with every man and scare away many. So they play it by ear with each new couple.

 

As a post note: this idea of a bi woman being bi with every woman also exists, when in fact I feel, and know from experience with Mrs. WS, that most are not any more attracted to every woman than they are every man. In fact, Mrs. WS will tell you that her strike zone with women is much narrower than it is with men. But this idea of all bi or gay people are attracted to everyone of the same sex still exists, though totally false.

[MRnMSbhaven 45]

My thoughts are that the double standard stems from society as a whole and the way people are raised concerning this topic.

 

I would go so far as to suggest that it is also the region/area. In some countries it seems more acceptable than in others. I'd even venture to say that in some states it is more acceptable. Which in effect boils down to what you say above... it really is all about social norms. In my travels, I've found that these vary widely and that we (USA) tend to be surprisingly conservative. Does that make it right or wrong? No, it just is what it is.

 

Just my .02 for those that are interested.

 

Ms. B

[Miss Sunshine 29]

I never understood this either. I love playing with another woman and I enjoy watching two together, but I also like it when my man is so relaxed and enjoying it he has no problem stroking another man. I love it when he grabs another man's cock and guides him into me. He has only played with another man a couple of times but has no problem with it. He has a fantasy of me watching him masturbate a man with a big cock, mmmmm, be right back, hee hee.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I think the double standard is a carry-over from society as a whole. Swinging is really representative of society as a whole.... the same issues you see amongst vanillas still exist in the swinging world and just because people are more open-minded doesn't mean that they aren't still closed minded about some things.

 

Just as male bisexuality is still very much in the closet in the vanilla world, so is it in the swinging world. From my experience I'd say that at least 1/3 of swinging men are bi-curious if not bi-active. Since I don't openly discuss sexuality with as many vanilla men, I can't say that it is the same with them, but I'm willing to guess that it is. Society seems to have opened the door for men to be gay... but for some reason male bisexuality still has a huge stigma attached to it.

 

Beardedknight said:

 

And the comment by "SCcpl40 Re: Why the Double Standard?

Go to the CDC and read about the risk of AIDS in male bisexuals. That should answer your question." Makes me shake my head. And the reason for that is that anyone who does not use condoms in this lifestyle is not only having sex with the currant sex partner but with everyone else they have had sex with (with no protection).

 

This is a great point that too many people often choose to ignore.

[Greg & Sheryl 368]

Beardedknight said:

And the comment by "SCcpl40 Re: Why the Double Standard?

 

Go to the CDC and read about the risk of AIDS in male bisexuals. That should answer your question." Makes me shake my head. And the reason for that is that anyone who does not use condoms in this lifestyle is not only having sex with the currant sex partner but with everyone else they have had sex with (with no protection). And it really amazes me how many people we have met that do not use condoms, have even had a few couples who decline having sex with us because we require everyone to use condoms.

 

If we are understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying that even though bisexual males are statistically more likely to carry HIV, it shouldn't matter because everyone should be using condoms, anyway. That thinking is based on the assumption that most people would be willing to have sex with an HIV-positive individual as long as the sex was protected. We don't believe that's true.

[bill&sabrina 22]

Greg & Sheryl said:

If we are understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying that even though bisexual males are statistically more likely to carry HIV, it shouldn't matter because everyone should be using condoms, anyway. That thinking is based on the assumption that most people would be willing to have sex with an HIV-positive individual as long as the sex was protected. We don't believe that's true.

 

My guess is that people say they won't play with bi men because statistically they are more likely to carry HIV. Then they go have unprotected sex with someone they met a couple of hours ago.

[Greg & Sheryl 368]

bill&sabrina said:

My guess is that people say they won't play with bi men because statistically they are more likely to carry HIV. Then they go have unprotected sex with someone they met a couple of hours ago.

 

The point we are trying to make is that even though someone may be fastidious about using condoms, that won't necessarily make that person less likely to avoid playing with bisexual males.

[ourrockstarlife 15]

Go to the CDC and read about the risk of AIDS in male bisexuals. That should answer your question.

 

Actually, AIDS is more prevalent in heterosexuals now. So that homophobic theory is out the window.

[Greg & Sheryl 368]

ourrockstarlife said:

Actually, AIDS is more prevalent in heterosexuals now.

 

We have no idea how you came to that conclusion, but here is our source, courtesy of the CDC: HIV/AIDS Cases by Transmission Category

[Spoomonkey 421]

I will say, just to add to the discussion in my own slightly naive way, a man having (or possibly having) an STD (specifically AIDS) has no bearing on whether or not I want to have sex with him.

 

It is the penis that is putting me off...

[Spoomonkey 421]

JustAskJulie said:

Society seems to have opened the door for men to be gay... but for some reason male bisexuality still has a huge stigma attached to it.

 

Gays and lesbians have worked hard and suffered much in "coming out of the closet" and forcing society to either accept them or deal with them. The persecution and venom they had to face for their courage is hard for me to compare to the "plight" of bisexual male swingers - who's resume of "activism" includes complaining on websites, aggressively misusing the word "hypocrite" and listing themselves on SLS as "straight".

 

I think the confusion is around the idea of "tolerance". A person can be very supportive of certain things (sexual identity being one of them) without wanting to watch or participate in them. For example, I can support the rights of homosexuals to marry, but it doesn't mean I want to watch them in bed together.

 

In most parts of society, this is understood and accepted and hardly an issue. But as swingers, it is sort of expected by bisexual men that since some of us enjoy seeing two women have sex (I am not particularly interested in watching that myself, which makes me a minority ) we should also want to watch them have sex; and we are some how low-brow cretin with a serious case of homophobia if we do not.

 

If they stepped back and thought about this dispassionately (which can be difficult to do on subjects we have such a strong opinion or personal investment in, I'll admit) I think they'd see that this is an unreasonable position and is asking more of others than they are willing (and able) to give of themselves. And if they did that - and approached the issue with a different tact than is common - they may actually develop a meaningful dialog on the topic.

[bill&sabrina 22]

The point we are trying to make is that even though someone may be fastidious about using condoms, that won't necessarily make that person less likely to avoid playing with bisexual males.

 

I'll agree with that, but I think that is opposite of what you originally quoted.

[ourrockstarlife 15]

Greg & Sheryl said:

We have no idea how you came to that conclusion, but here is our source, courtesy of the CDC: HIV/AIDS Cases by Transmission Category

 

Worldwide, the incidence of HIV infection is reflected in heterosexuals at 85%

 

In the United States, 31% of cases in heteros and 42% in homosexuals

 

If you are speaking CDC, a US department, than YES the incidence of HIV infection is higher for homosexuals, BUT NOT BY MUCH.

 

Worldwide, the infection is simply passed through unprotected sex, and is more prevalent in heterosexuals.

 

You can't hide homophobia behind a disease, especially one that is NOT a gay disease anymore.

 

The simple fact is this: women are more willing to participate in homosexual behavior for the pleasure and attention of the men around them. There are some true bisexual women in the lifestyle, but from my experience, you mostly see women performing the old "frat party ho down"

 

There is not so much of a calling for male homosexual exhibitionism, and although it is not fair to those who like to indulge in that sort of play, it is just the lifestyles own guidelines (however biased they may be). The majority rules.

[VegasLee 1,486]

Since some want to throw out stats here are current stats:

 

During 2007, some 2.5 million people became infected with the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), which causes AIDS.

 

The year also saw 2.1 million deaths from AIDS but the number of deaths have declined since 2005.

 

 

Globally, around 11% of HIV infections are among babies who acquire the virus from their mothers; 10% result from injecting drug use; 5-10% are due to sex between men; and 5-10% occur in health care settings. Sex between men and women accounts for the remaining proportion – around two thirds of new infections.

 

In the U.S. men with aids, 59% where exposed through men on men sex. Women with aids, 65% where exposed through heterosexual contact.

 

Bottom line there is a double standard in the lifestyle as there has been for years and will be for years to come. There is no reason to fight or argue or call anyone names over it, it is the way it is. As time goes on it WILL change as many things have in the lifestyle over the years. Every change takes time.

 

Gays and lesbians did not come out over night and the bi men are not going to be accepted over night either. This subject gets brought up monthly here and on other boards if not more often. No matter what ANYONE says, there are bi men at every club in this country. They may keep it private but they are there.

 

It appears that many would rather just stir the pot rather than read the threads that have had this same discussion. There really is nothing new to say about it that I am aware of but if I am wrong someone please let me know.

 

Beating something to death does not make it happen.

[stu 25]

Beardedknight said:

I would like to hear comments from anyone that wishes to add their thoughts without being rude or vicious about this question:

Why is there a Double Standard when it comes to Bisexuality in Swinging?

 

It is okay, if not expected, for women to be Bisexual. But when it comes to guys being Bisexual it is totally frowned on or even banned, in most "On Premise" Clubs and even in most swing groups that are not On Premise.

 

Also wondering if the thought of two men together, turns any of you women on?

 

Thanks in advance to all that reply.

 

The soft touch of a woman, curvaceous, sexy, cute, gentle, all traits attributed to a woman ( and rightly so ).

 

Cant say that for men.

 

Those are the qualities most men are looking for.

 

Beauty is hardly ever attributed to men. Hirsute. Cant really blame the men for not being able to appreciate the body of another man. (for sex)...it's not curvaceous, not soft....

 

Though women are genetically engineered to desire a mans body..they can still appreciate the beauty inherent in a woman.

 

Men appreciating a woman...is no big deal...they are beautiful beings...but appreciating another man...(for sex)....

I wouldn't know what to look for

 

I dont think they are double standards....just plain common sense

 

this is just a man's point of view (Mine)...and probably I haven't been able to put it across too well.

 

Two men having sex...can't really imagine finding it sexy.....but that's me....Everyone to their own point of view.

[Greg & Sheryl 368]

Worldwide, the incidence of HIV infection is reflected in heterosexuals at 85%

 

In the United States, 31% of cases in heteros and 42% in homosexuals

 

If you are speaking CDC, a US department, than YES the incidence of HIV infection is higher for homosexuals, BUT NOT BY MUCH.

 

Worldwide, the infection is simply passed through unprotected sex, and is more prevelant in heterosexuals.

 

You can't hide homophobia behind a disease, especially one that is NOT a gay disease anymore.

Please forgive us for being ugly Americans, but we're not really concerned about what the situation supposedly is outside of the United States. In reference to the CDC figures we pointed out, just under one-third of the total HIV/AIDS cases in the US were transsmitted via high-risk heterosexual contact, meaning that the patient's sexual partner was either an IV drug user or was a man that has sex with other men. This tells us that if you are a heterosexual in America, also long as you avoid having sex with people in these high-risk groups, your chances of catching HIV are very remote.

 

The primary transmission agents for HIV are blood and semen. Because women don't have semen, unless there is blood involved, it's very difficult for women to pass the virus to men. Most heterosexual infections occur when the man becomes infected via the aforementioned high-risk activities, then passes on the virus to a female partner via his infected semen. We don't use this to justify homophobia; we use it to justfy why we don't have sex with bisexual men. It's risky enough having sex with multiple partners in this lifestyle, so why should we increase that risk by adding male-on-male activity to it?

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

Global sex, use global stats

 

USA sex, use US (CDC?) stats

 

regional/state(s)sex, use regional stats

 

Regional sex, use global stats to make your case--NOT

 

Don't you think the African Nations plight changes things? Which, by the way, have NOTHING to do with the stats of how AIDS are transmitted in Smallville, NE.

[SIR_DRAGONFIRE5 15]

Well once again the issue of a double standard rises. I believe over the years it's more acceptable for men than it used to be, but has a very long way to go! It's a double standard by definition than most other double standard issues. I feel in my experiences it's totally more acceptable & expect when it comes to bi-females, especialy in Ca. for sure! I've heard men & women state it's more erotic for bi-females, not erotic for bi-males,

[WesternSwing 504]

Beardedknight said:

I would like to hear comments from anyone that wishes to add their thoughts without being rude or vicious about this question:

Why is there a Double Standard when it comes to Bisexuality in Swinging?

 

It is okay, if not expected, for women to be Bisexual. But when it comes to guys being Bisexual it is totally frowned on or even banned, in most "On Premise" Clubs and even in most swing groups that are not On Premise.

 

Also wondering if the thought of two men together, turns any of you women on?

 

Thanks in advance to all that reply.

 

In my opinion and experience, although many swingers claim to be more liberated sexually, the instance of male/male contact freaking people out is pretty on par with general society. However, also in my experience many men are bisexual in private with another couple/man they trust than will admit to it publicly. This may also hold true in general society, though.

[Playful1 434]

I'd just like to point out that despite all the people who like to say they don't have sex with bisexual men....unless they tell you, you have no idea. It is actually quite likely that at some point you have had sex with someone who had bisexual contact...be that oral or full penetration.

 

As for the double standard I think it has to do with the majority of people thinking male on male sex is a threat to masculinity. Whereas there is no threat from female on female sex.

 

I find male on male play hot, but it's not for everyone. Everyone doesn't need to be turned on by everything, but as long as its consensual we need to be more understanding of peoples various interests...be that bi play, bdsm, or some other variation that people seem to have issues with.