My wife wants me to have a girlfriend. How do I do that? Pros and Cons?

[a. synonymy 35]

Let me first apologize in advance if this (or something similar) has been covered and discussed extensively already. I'm sure my situation is not entirely new or original, but it is for me, so I'm throwing it out there. If you've got any experience or advice you'd like to drop my/our way, by all means, please do so. I also apologize for the length but the reality is that this deal has some history to it that I think is relevant.

 

My wife (25) and I (27) have been married for five years, we have a son that just turned two. For several years, we've talked in foreplay about having other partners - but it was just talk for a very long time and nothing more. After the baby was born our sexuality dwindled considerably and until last summer, it seemed like it was going to evaporate into nothing. Well, at some point over the summer we both started seriously (and excitedly) considering the idea of swinging and perused some of the sites regarding it. We put a discreet profile out there, met a couple and after careful consideration, we had them over for dinner and whatever might come. To start off the night, we began fooling around with our own wives but no one ever 'made the move' and it ended up being a nervous and awkward event. They courteously left the next day and nothing happened.

 

We continued to talk to the couple and decided to reschedule another night, but eventually we started getting cold feet about it and just decided to put the site and our vague and fledgling relationship with them behind us. So we did, but with some strange side effects remained lingering. My feelings about her with another guy are in somewhat flux, but for the most part, if it's the right guy/situation, I'm confident I could deal with it - considering seeing her with another man, as for many guys, is a huge turn on. For me, it's even a bigger turn on than getting it off with another woman. But my feelings are sporadic in this regard, so I can't say for certain how I feel. She, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily want to be with another man anymore. What she does want, from both a sexual and emotional angle, is that I explore having a relationship with another woman, but not strictly sexual. She wants me to have a real girlfriend on the side.

 

Now I trust my wife on this. She's fully aware of this site and my posting here, as she'll no doubt read it upon me showing it to her (she may even participate). That being said, I want it to be known that she's not looking to split up our relationship or cover for something she's doing on the side. She's genuinely enjoyed talking about the idea, as far as I can tell, of me doing sexual things and emotional things (dating, caring for, commitment) with another woman.

 

For the average married guy, I suppose this is an easy situation - you get to have sex outside of your marriage at your wife's consent, what could be better than that? And trust me, I see the advantages to it. That being said, I have some serious concerns...

 

My major concern is who the hell would want something like that? How do I approach it with someone? We've done some extensive research on polyamory and swinging, so we're both comfortable with me having another girl who I have a relationship with, but I just don't even know where to begin to look for such a thing. How do you even breach that subject with someone I like without looking like I'm trying to find a clever way to cheat on your wife? I find people are usually on two sides of the bed with regard to having an emotional/sexual relationship outside of the marriage. Either they want to do it behind their spouse's back and are cheating -or- they simply want to experience the openness of sex outside their marriage like the average swinger. I'm somewhere in between the two and I'm not really familiar with how to handle that at all. To complicate things, we're close to my extended family and they are very religious - if something like this were to happen, it would have to be somewhat discrete? Is a relationship like that possible and enjoyable? Would another person ever consider something of that nature?

 

Anyways, I've written a lot and I don't want to present an 'epic ton' of nonsense here. I've read this site from time to time and I figured it was a good place to find open and honest people to bring something like this up and get some good advice. Let me know how you would go about looking for another partner like this? How you would present the situation (I'm married but my wife wants me to have a girl friend) to someone? How would you maintain a relationship like this? What are the pitfalls? What should I look out for?

 

 

Feel free to ask me any questions that might fill in the gaps. Thanks in advance for any responses...

[Dreamcouple 15]

Why? Why does your wife want you to have a girlfriend? Does she really want you to have a girlfriend? Or does she really want to see if you only love her?

 

Women say one thing but they really mean another thing. Many times women say things like, "I'm not feeling good. I'm a little ill. But it's ok. You go ahead with your friends to the movie without me." Yes! She did say you could go to the movies. And if you do go she will resent you forever for going without her. She will resent you because you did not love her more than your friends. She will always remember you did not care for her when she was not feeling good. She will always remember that your friends are more important to you than she is. And this resentment will show up again and again in your sex life. Your sex life will suck.

 

When your wife is ready to swing you will know. How will you know? Well she will be your best friend. And she will always want to be with you and go with you. Be it a movie or sharing pleasure with swinger friends. And your sex life....you and your wife only....will be great!!!

 

Many times but not always. If it's to good to be true then it is to good to be true. And it's not true.

[rpu3 630]

The first thing I think is why is it automatically assumed that the woman is not telling the truth? Man, that's annoying to think every woman is supposed to be assumed to be playing a word game. Yes, far too many women play this stupid little game of "let me say it, but I hope you get that I really mean the opposite." I get angry with myself if I try (very rarely) to pull this one people in my life - instead I'm just pretty blunt about things. People are not mind readers. If you can't rely on what people say, then what's the point? Say what you mean and mean what you say and end the ridiculous game playing. Not everyone is in an immature marriage where people can't just be open and honest with each other.

 

I am in an open marriage and if I've told my spouse I am fine with his choices, he is assured it's the truth. I certainly have told him when I'm not fine with his choices. I also don't expect him to read my mind, and I don't insult him by sending coded messages that don't say what needs to be said. I don't expect him to figure out what I'm really saying. There's no resentment. Our sex life doesn't suck. And that's the way it is because there's no assumption that anyone is playing petty little read-my-mind games. It would be wrong of someone else to come in and say that I don't really mean what I say to him.

 

I can understand some of the point you might be trying to make. However, I get the feeling he is already feeling his way through to make sure this is actually an acceptable arrangement to his wife. It does seem like they talk a lot. But assuming that she's not telling the truth based on stereotypical woman behavior? I don't want to get too hasty in that assumption and thus miss the point of the posting.

[rpu3 630]

She, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily want to be with another man anymore. What she does want, from both a sexual and emotional angle, is that I explore having a relationship with another woman, but not strictly sexual. She wants me to have a real girlfriend on the side.

 

While I clearly don't agree with a previous poster as to the whole "what women are really saying angle", I agree with the "why" is she interested in you finding another girlfriend. That part isn't clear. What is her reasoning? Why does she think this will work for your marriage?

 

Now I trust my wife on this. She's fully aware of this site and my posting here, as she'll no doubt read it upon me showing it to her (she may even participate). That being said, I want it to be known that she's not looking to split up our relationship or cover for something she's doing on the side. She's genuinely enjoyed talking about the idea, as far as I can tell, of me doing sexual things and emotional things (dating, caring for, commitment) with another woman.

 

I'm waiting for those who are more wise in this to pop in, but just keep talking. I am in an open marriage, and what makes this work is the complete honesty of both parties.

 

For the average married guy, I suppose this is an easy situation - you get to have sex outside of your marriage at your wife's consent, what could be better than that? And trust me, I see the advantages to it. That being said, I have some serious concerns...

 

Sure, it looks great on paper, but there are problems and disadvantages you face as a married man that I do not experience as a married woman in a open relationship.

 

My major concern is who the hell would want something like that? How do I approach it with someone? We've done some extensive research on polyamory and swinging, so we're both comfortable with me having another girl who I have a relationship with, but I just don't even know where to begin to look for such a thing. How do you even breach that subject with someone I like without looking like I'm trying to find a clever way to cheat on your wife? I find people are usually on two sides of the bed with regard to having an emotional/sexual relationship outside of the marriage. Either they want to do it behind their spouse's back and are cheating -or- they simply want to experience the openness of sex outside their marriage like the average swinger. I'm somewhere in between the two and I'm not really familiar with how to handle that at all.

 

This is where I say "good luck" if you decide to pursue this. It has been rather difficult for my spouse to meet others. I can post an ad in any number of sources for an on-the-side experience and end up with an overflowing in-box. The spousal unit? Ummm, one response, and only one experience to date.

 

To complicate things, we're close to my extended family and they are very religious - if something like this were to happen, it would have to be somewhat discrete? Is a relationship like that possible and enjoyable? Would another person ever consider something of that nature?

 

If you end up in such a relationship, the three of you would be the ones deciding on the discretion. There are posts in this forum describing the level of openness some have.

 

Possible and enjoyable? Yes. There are several forms of possible alternative relationships to swinging, and you'll find people doing it and happy in each form. You'll also find those for whom it didn't work out and they aren't considering it any more, or they chalked it up to life and will try again if it works out that way. You've got an entire forum devoted to those that are interested in polyamory. I'm telling directly that my spouse and I are in an open marriage, and we are fine, happy and well-adjusted (so far).

 

Yes, there are plenty of those that only practice straight-up swinging, just like there are those that only do monogamy, or those that only practice whatever it is they practice. You two are the only ones that get to decide whether monogamy, swinging, polyamory, open marriage, etc. are right for you. The two of you are the only ones that get to decide the right path for you in anything in your life.

 

As long as you two continue to talk and make your choices openly and together, then the most anyone should try to opine is, whatever works for you - keep up the communication and good luck to you - we'll be here if you want to talk or you need advice!

 

Anyways, I've written a lot and I don't want to present an 'epic ton' of nonsense here. I've read this site from time to time and I figured it was a good place to find open and honest people to bring something like this up and get some good advice. Let me know how you would go about looking for another partner like this? How you would present the situation (I'm married but my wife wants me to have a girl friend) to someone? How would you maintain a relationship like this? What are the pitfalls? What should I look out for?

 

Again, I just think you are going to find it difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. It's not like you can go on Yahoo personals or Match dot com, or the like - being married, you technically can't place ads. You may not get much interest on the swing sites. My spouse doesn't. He's managed to meet friends in real life, only one of which has evolved into a sexual relationship. It's just harder for men for reasons from women are seeking long time partners, to other women not quite understanding what's being asked, etc. It's a lot easier for me to announce to the world that I can have sex outside my marriage, but I'm not seeking marriage - plenty of men interested in non-committed sex and some of those men are interested in friends with benefits arrangement. But my spouse hasn't found the same on his side of the coin.

 

As far as what you should look out for and pitfalls - I'm worthless on that point and so would my spouse. We just really try to let things be what they are and let these relationships find their own level, so to speak. My spouse is very good at this - I am not, but if I let things be what it will be and evolve at its own pace, things seem much smoother and happier/more fun. I think pitfalls again would fall into a more personal realm for you and your wife. My pitfall of overthinking things constantly might not be your pitfall and your wife may have her own set of things that will be an issue for her.

 

Luckily for you, there's an entire forum that might have something better to add.

 

Thanks for the post, and I hope you get some other responses. Do keep talking with your wife. And I really hope your wife will consider coming here as well for her perspective. We don't bite - really!

[WesternSwing 504]

I agree wholeheartedly with rpu3, it's easier for a married woman to find a willing third than a married man, for the exact reasons she outlined. Like the old joke goes, women need a reason to have sex, men just need a place. Most single women are looking for relationships that will go somewhere, hopefully toward marriage. You're not the person to give them that. Yes, there are some looking for friends with benefits, but they are few and far between, and again, they can get that with single guy friends.

 

For instance, both my wife and I placed profiles on OKCUPID. I didn't get a single response from anyone. Her email inbox was flooded daily with men looking to get some from a married woman. But, for both single men and women, the idea that you have your spouse's permission to have an outside relationship is hard to wrap their minds around. Most of these guys were freaked-out by the idea of meeting me and a MFM threesome was definitely out of the question. The idea of a banging a cheating wife like in porn was a huge turn-on for them though.

 

Now for a woman, this is even more intense, plus the fact that for more women then men, the idea of playing with a cheating spouse is not a turn-on.

 

So after all this dissertation on the whys, here is the hows as we've come to experience it. We meet these women together as as couple. When they get to know us together they understand what our relationship is and where they'd fit into it. If I was to meet them without Mrs. WS and try to explain it to them they'd think I was cheating.

 

For instance, we were at a concert at a smaller local venue in December. Mrs. WS met this gal who was there with a friend, they hit it off, she introduced her to me, there was also attraction between us, we flirted all together all night, and we exchanged phone numbers before we went home. Less than a week later I was having play dates with her.

 

Similar thing happened this weekend when we went to a local night club. Before the night was over we met one woman who was in an open relationship and another who mentioned something about swingers (feeling us out I think) and when we told her we are she immediately gave her number to Mrs. WS and asked Mrs. WS for mine, too.

 

These are women we met in non-swinging situations and we met together and seemed to be interested in pursuing a relationship with us as a couple, either together or solo on occasion.

 

This may not work for you, but for us, it is the only way we've ever met other women to include in our relationship.

[LOOKIN4FUN9773 15]

Each one of the previous posters have good points although we don't completely agree with the way that dreamcouple tried to make there point. I (the male half) have been in the situation that they are referring to. My suggestion to you in reference to that is talk talk talk and when you think you have talked enough talk some more. Make sure her feelings are 100% clear to both of you.I feel this situation would be like a full swing make sure everything is open and on the table.If not there could be fall out.

 

We (Mrs and I) have the kind of relationship the you are talking about. One thing that I am assuming here is that this is going to be just for you?? Is your wife bisexual and looking for a girlfriend for you both? Our relationship is one were the Mrs is Bi and really is not looking to swing with a male, so we look for a bi female most of the time. But she has given me permission (and it's truly no reading between the lines permission) to play alone as long as the rules are respected. Our rules/boundries are simple 1) She meets or knows the girl and approves (if she doesn't no play) 2) Its at home or she knows were I'm at 3) Be safe.

 

So yes, there are people out there in relationships that don't differ far from what your wife has proposed to you...AND yes, what western swing and rpu3 has said it is harder for married men to find play mates. As western swing said we find it's easier to find a playmate if the Mrs is involved. The potential playmates seem to feel more comfortable. We have also had good luck with the Mrs being the one to start the conversation.

[gatorvol64 216]

Like most of the others, I feel you should find out why your wife wants you to have a girlfriend...not just a f*** buddy if you will. Has she always thought along these lines? Even before you? Does she think she'll eventually want a boyfriend (or girlfriend) herself? Are you as prepared for that as she seems to be with you having a girlfriend?

 

I can only imagine the difficulty of a married man finding such a relationship. We haven't faced that. We both fell for another couple.

 

I can tell you that a poly relationship (which is what you are basically talking about if emotions are involved) isn't always an easy road to travel. It can have great rewards, true, but it isn't for everyone.

 

My advice is to talk a lot more. Ask the questions I and the others have posed to you. When you are in a poly relationship communicating is essential...just as it is in a monagomous one. But, there are times I still will start a conversation telling any of the other three that I want "no bullshit answers". We aren't in the habit of lying to one another but this signals how very important this is for me to talk about. Calmly have a one of these with your wife.

 

Good Luck!

 

Vol

[a. synonymy 35]

Thanks for all of the responses, we really appreciate it. My wife sat down the other night to read my post and everyone's responses and we talked about it again for a few hours. She's going to try to come here to speak on behalf of herself, but she's not big on message boards - so I don't know when that might be, but possibly tonight.

 

Anyways, let me try to answer some of the questions and she can correct me if I'm wrong when she gets a chance to respond. The biggest question you guys have mentioned is: Why does she feel that way? To be honest, that's not a question I can personally answer, since I'm not the one who has those feelings.

 

I can say that I think she would be comfortable with a strictly sexual relationship between me and another girl, but by-in-large, she distinctively prefers that I have some sort of relationship with the girl and she's made this clear to me on many occasions. She doesn't want it to be an affair - she wants me to be honest with both of them - but she's interested in the idea of me going out on dates, talking about my 'other' relationship with with her and us even doing casual, everyday things as a group. It should also be noted that she's not typically curious when it comes to her own sexuality and in this situation, she's not interested in having a 3-way relationship where she's romantically attached to the other girl, but she does want me to pursue an additional relationship on the side for both her and my pleasure.

 

I think a lot of it stems from her development growing up - when she was in her early teens. She read a book or two about men who had a very dominating relationships and they had a wife and a mistress on the side. She admits to me that it could be the root of her feelings, but doesn't know for certain. I feel like she's acquired a strong taste for a male role in those respects and that this literature had a profound effect on her. She wants a situation where I have a woman I care about very deeply, even possibly love if I were so inclined, in tandem (not competition) with my marriage to her.

 

Another large piece to the puzzle is the full swap we were very close to taking part in. The one thing I could tell she was interested in most was that myself and the other couple's woman would trade text messages, known to both of our spouses, that were sexual and romantic throughout the day. It wasn't something I intended to do at the start, nor do I think the other girl intended it - but, it happened and my wife was truly interested and turned on by what was said and that specific relationship dynamic.

 

At any rate, those two pieces of the puzzle sort of opened this doorway into conversation and I began flirting with some of the women at my work in response to it. As it stands, the flirting is always innocent and I'm pretty sure I want it to stay that way for a while (at least at work). I find work to be a very precarious place to consider doing any of this, particularly since some of my close relatives and friends work in different departments within the same building. There are certain women who have come on to me there, clearly interested in the flirting, but they're usually married (possibly considering cheating) or simply looking for quick attention - neither is feasible for a relationship in my opinion. We also agree with everyone who said communication is key. If I haven't displayed that we already are very open and honest about it, let me reaffirm that we are and if we were in a relationship that involved a third person, we would absolutely continue that tradition.

 

Vol, my wife has repeatedly told me that she's not interested in having a boyfriend. We often 'dirty talk' about having different partners during sex and she is always the first to state, in the wake of intercourse, how she likes talking about it but isn't interested in being with another guy in the least. She might be lying to me or even herself, but I'm fairly convinced that she's being honest. I'm sure she'll speak for herself as soon as she gets a chance to post. As for me, I'm not necessarily against her having a boyfriend, but I haven't given it much thought since she shows an aversion toward it whenever it comes up.

 

To be honest, I'm not aggressively looking for it right now which is one of the reasons I have so many questions for you guys. If I do start to pursue it, I want to have some knowledge and expectations on how to handle it. She wants me to go out with some of my friends (several of which are women) at my work, go drinking with them and to clubs. I plan on doing this and seeing what happens. She even remarked once to me about a girl she found at her own work that she thought I would be attracted to and would be a good candidate for this scenario. The girl didn't stay at the job long enough for that to pan out, but like was said earlier by some of you, it would be a much easier situation for her to setup on her end than I.

 

Anyways, I appreciate all of the suggestions. Feel free to poke and prod me some more for any questions you might have and offer any advice you feel I need or should be aware of. Hopefully my wife will post in the next day or so, if not tonight. Thanks again!

[rpu3 630]

Please don't mistake some of us asking "why" to mean skepticism necessarily. Being a woman who is in an open marriage, I am interested in how other women get to their alternative relationships. That "why?" doesn't mean I doubt your motives or your veracity - it means I'm curious and what to know what YOU think about it. If you hang around, I think you'll see on any of the forums there is a lot of "why" and "how did you get there", and it's rarely a personal attack - it's just wanting to know and learn. That's what makes the place more interesting to me.

 

I will admit this whole assumption of the wife's angles and word games has been rather confusing to me, as well. This is the Polyamory & Swinging forum. The OP took his time and picked his forum carefully. They are seeking something different from traditional swinging. They have considered swinging - they are now considering different alternatives. To label their desire to possibly allow the OP to add a relationship as something being off or a game is not exactly in the spirit of the Poly forum.

 

This is the one place they can come on Swingers Board; again, they posted on the Poly forum, not a general swing forum.

 

Please keep checking back - some of the others that post in this forum might still pop in, and I personally hope you'll continue to check out the relevant forums and participate. I personally appreciate hearing different perspectives.

[ncmd_couple 597]

a._synonymy,

 

I have been lurking in this thread as well. A rule in the swing community is that if Momma isn't happy, no one is happy. As long as the two of you are happy, it is all good. My one comment is for your hubby. I strongly suggest that you don't look for a partner at work. Yes, it is easier because it provides a good venue for meeting other women, but the dangers of serious problems is just too great.

 

I have seen profiles on SLS where they register as a couple and the wife clearly states that she is looking for a woman for her man. I don't know how well they work, but they are there. You might also look for other outside activities where there is social interaction where you and the wife can participate. A woman that you meet who knows that your wife is really behind this, and that you are not cheating on her, will be more open to the possibilities. Good Luck!!!

 

S

[GoNatural 104]

The biggest question you guys have mentioned is: Why does she feel that way?

 

 

I think a lot of it stems from her development growing up - when she was in her early teens. She read a book or two about men who had a very dominating relationships and they had a wife and a mistress on the side. She admits to me that it could be the root of her feelings, but doesn't know for certain.

 

That sounds like a very logical source for the feelings. I'm sure that it is even more complex than that, but that explains it in the broad sense.

 

I feel this way bacuase I have some "cuckold" desires, though only the basic kind of way, as I have no interest in humiliation. I would love to spend my life in a loving relationship to a woman that had desires for other men. It would be an even more powrful stimulant for me if shared some emotional attatchment with them. Nevertheless, I desire to always be her "primary partner", and spend my life with her.

 

As for meeting women into poly. First, I'd go out to bars and clubs with your wife, if she's up for it (and if you two like that scene). Just mingle and somehow mention that you are in an open relationship at the appropriate time. Timing will be important in this scenario, otherwise it will seem that you are only focused on sex. Get onto other topics first.

 

I like the poly personals site PolyMatchMaker, or PMM for short. Get involved in the forums there. Some states have few single women, but you will run into some opportunities on that site.

 

I'd also check meetup dot com for poly groups near your area.

 

Socialize with open-minded people, and not just at the typical singles areas, because many of those woman are looking for traditional relationships. Go to renasance festifals and such. Go to happenings that draw alternative type people. Now, if you basically just a mainstream person, this may not be your best option concerning compatibility.

 

Now, I'd also enjoy the opportunity to have a secondary or tertiary lover, or just swing, but it is not as powerful of a fantasy for me. I'm the voyeur type, even if I'm not even there watching them each time. Just being able to watch them some of the time would blow me away!

 

Oh, my research about love and relationships to find that much of the theories behind polyamory are solid and biological. The polyprimary type relationship likely being the most natural, except that primitive humans were not honest and open about their secondaries.

[WesternSwing 504]

Oh, my research about love and relationships to find that much of the theories behind polyamory are solid and biological. The polyprimary type relationship likely being the most natural, except that primitive humans were not honest and open about their secondaries.

I don't know if that is so much the case, I think it's today's society that is dishonest about their secondaries, such as cheaters, and especially those that carry-on a long-term intimate relationship with someone else besides their primary partner. This is truly a "multiple love" situation, but without the openness and honesty of a true poly relationship, But, in every other sense it is a poly-like relationship, just without the "knowledge and consent of everyone involved" part.

 

I think primitive humans didn't see ownership of each other like we do today. Having such beliefs would not have been in the best interest of the survival of our species. Women in the tribe mated with many men to increase the chance of pregnancy and also the chances of a child reaching the age where they could produce offspring. You still see this in many "primitive" tribes today where a passage to womanhood is performed by a high-ranking elder of the tribe and then she is allowed to marry. And she may still mate with other men during her life, but raise her family in a mother/father/children household (huthold?). This type of intimate bonding also strengthens the unity of the tribe and the likelihood that one will protect the other against harm because they have an emotional interest in them.

 

Modern society and big cities have washed away this feeling of interconnectedness. There are some that are trying to revive it through poly relationships and communal situations. Events like Burning Man promote love of your brothers and sisters and living as a tribe for a weeks where no commerce past trading goods is allowed. I know that for us, we have had our "tribe" of friends that for awhile we were very close with. But, as life goes on and some accept jobs far away, couples change partners and life gets in the way of living, the tribe as it was evolves or wanes for awhile. But the love and concern for everyone hasn't. It's just changed.

[robnsusan60 43]

I know exactly where this lady's coming from and, after reading her posts, I'm a believer in her given reason. The proof in the pudding was her comment about the incredible sex they'd have after he'd been with his g/f. I just think that kind of comment comes more from true feelings rather than conjuring.

 

But there is one teensy little difference in my case, I didn't have a g/f, she had a b/f, almost every other aspect matched and our's went on for years with not one negative result, now that's where the 'incredible sex' part comes in.

 

I do think the 'skepticism' thing was a natural reaction. I hesitate to categorize people or paint everyone with a wide brush, but this is not something that one usually see's in the wife half of a couple. I see absolutely nothing wrong with their situation, it's actually kind of a smiley thing for me.

[couplers 4,639]

The only thing I have to add (as the wife in a somewhat similar situation) is for you to help him recruit a girlfriend. As the girltalk, even among vanilla women, eventually turns to sex, I talk up hubby. What a good lover he is. This approach has been a slow go, but exciting. Hubby and I also use it to fantasize about friends, acquaintances, co-workers, college students, waitresses. Thus far, we are on our third and longest term girlfiend for David. The first two lasted just short of a year (it was a rebound after a divorce) and 18 months, but both eventually wanted more than being the other woman and moved on. His current gf is a busy, ambitious woman and this situation fits her well. I am not bi, and none of these women are, but I wanted to watch and the current one is the first that lets me. I am still friends with all of them.