Does Swinging have a "feminizing" affect on men?

[Tybee Swing 286]

I was confused by this thread, and didn't understand what you meant by "feminizing", or why swinging would have a "feminizing effect" on men (the title of the thread). But here at the end, it looks like what you really meant by that was social skills.

 

Did you think of social skills as being "feminine" in some way? Do you still feel that social skills are feminine, after this conversation? I think of social skills as simply people-skills....knowing how to talk to, and even charm and win over people of both sexes (along the lines of the old "How to Win Friends & Influence People"). Of course swinging is about sex, and to get sex, you generally need to be charming and friendly (have an appealing personality). But again, that's not "feminine" to me. It's just people skills.

 

You talked about men being "pigs", but I couldn't figure out what you were referring to; it seemed you were talking about guys discussing Sportcenter and 69 Camaros, and then the "pig" reference. Guys talking about guy-stuff doesn't make them pigs. Sorry, but I just didn't get this.

[Tybee Swing 286]

Look at guys in vanilla bars. They are on the hunt. At a swing club, not as much. Maybe it is because our bi wives/gfs, do a lot of hunting for us, and we have gotten lazy.

 

This is a pet peeve of mine. If a guy sends his wife around the room to do all the socializing for both of them while he sits back on his ass and puts forth no effort at all, expecting the wife to bring in the "kill" for him, he's an ass. If a man is too damned lazy to come talk to me, flirt, etc., he's out of luck. Apparently this does work for a lot of couples, though, or it wouldn't be happening.

 

If all swinging women took a stand, not having sex with lazy men who won't do any of the socializing and seducing, we could fix this whole situation in a week. Likewise, the women who work the room for the two of them should stop holding up his end, tell him to be a MAN and go get his own pussy.

 

But as the male half of a swinging couple, I definitely feel the need to be more engaged on a woman's terms than I would if I was just trying to score at a vanilla bar.

 

What are "woman's terms"?

 

Could it be that swinging women are more discriminating?

 

Sorry, I don't understand. More discriminating about who they have sex with? No, I would think that vanilla women are more discriminating about who they have sex with - much more. Maybe I'm missing your point?

[cubnamy1995 124]

(Amy posting) I have read this thread and responded, and maybe some explanation is in order. I don't do the trolling for the two of us. However, we are a play-together-at-all-times couple. It is important to both of us that we all (meaning all couples or people) have a connection and a comfort level between us. It is a known fact in our marriage that I tend to be the better judge of someone's character and not just their sexual abilities. We have been in the situation where my husband has been the hunter, and upon meeting the woman, while she was quite attractive, she was also quite judgmental, very cold to talk to with me, and that simply will not do for us. There was no respect from her, nor was there respect for our marriage. With this in mind, I know my husband's taste, but I will not be put aside by any woman in any circumstance simply to appease your sense of what should be fair.

 

My husband and I are not swinging together to insure that you are the only one who comes out happy in the situation. As far as men being pigs, I do not think that men are by nature piggish. I do however, think that when plied with alcohol and naked breasts, they may not be the best judge of who I would enjoy being with. This does not feminize my husband, nor does it show a lack of people skills on his part. He is my equal in every way.

 

(Cubby posting) Tybee, you are missing the entire point of my thread. I will attempt to explain where I am coming from. In doing so, I will not presume to speak for all men. I will simply speak for myself. Back in my single days, if I would go to a bar to pick up a woman, I would be competing with every other man in that bar. Because of this, it becomes critical that I strut my peacock feathers and try to be more macho. At least that is what general society says I must do. While you may disagree with this, let's face facts. This is how men have operated since we left the cave.

 

In a swinging environment, while we men do have a bit of temptation to compete, we really don't have to. There is an understanding that everyone is there for sex, and for the most part, there is plenty of it to go around. This means that we men must change our strategy. Instead of being the biggest dick in the room, or thumping our chests the hardest, we must learn to speak to and interact with women in a manner that is more, for lack of a better term, "evolved". Some men may find this difficult to do, since we have been taught otherwise our whole lives, so it is easier to let the wives do the "hunting." Granted, this may make some men look lazy, but that really isn't the case.

 

As far as more discriminating, I will also disagree with you. If I am trying to pick up a woman in a vanilla bar, that woman will choose between me and how I carry myself as opposed to every other man there. If I'm a bit of a "pig" in a vanilla bar, that is not necessarily a deal-breaker, if I look better than the other guys there, and you have decided that I'll do. In a swinging situation, it is expected that I have a better understanding of women, and am better able to engage in conversation that is more "evolved". Granted this assumes that the quality of partners is better in a swing environment, which may not always be the case, but in general, this is a safe bet, because we would not be at this point in our relationship if I didn't have some "skills." To the rest of the world, that often makes me look more "feminine" in nature to other men because this lifestyle is a choice between me and my wife and my sex life is no longer a scorepad to compare in the locker room, which you, as a woman, with all due respect, would not understand.

 

So my question, which I intended to direct more towards the men, was "do you feel like swinging has had a feminizing effect, meaning, have you been able to successfully adapt to the change in strategy this lifestyle requires for men." I don't know how to explain it any clearer than that.

 

Sorry for the length.

[Tybee Swing 286]

(Amy posting) My husband and I are not swinging together to insure that you are the only one who comes out happy in the situation.

 

Of course not...we all swing to please ourselves and for our own relationships, not others. Sorry, but I don't understand the meaning of this statement, or how it fits into the other things you wrote.

 

I'm not questioning anyone's personal preferences (if that was how it was taken), I was just asking questions and trying to genuinely understand what this was all about.

 

(Cubby posting) Tybee, you are missing the entire point of my thread. I will attempt to explain where I am coming from. In doing so, I will not presume to speak for all men. I will simply speak for myself. Back in my single days, if I would go to a bar to pick up a woman, I would be competing with every other man in that bar. Because of this, it becomes critical that I strut my peacock feathers and try to be more macho. At least that is what general society says I must do. While you may disagree with this, let's face facts. This is how men have operated since we left the cave.

 

I'm not trying to disagree, I'm trying to understand.

 

As a former single woman, men who strutted around and acted macho would have had no impact on me. To the best of my knowledge and experience, most women, whether single/vanilla or married/swinging, prefer men who know how engage in conversation, who have some charm (attractive personality), warmth, maturity, and confidence without being cocky. To us, this isn't feminine behavior at all, it's just very appealing and what we really want in a man.

 

I'm not sure who general society is, those people who tell men to be what you described, but I just don't think the women are in on that request.

 

In a swinging environment, while we men do have a bit of temptation to compete, we really don't have to. There is an understanding that everyone is there for sex, and for the most part, there is plenty of it to go around. This means that we men must change our strategy. Instead of being the biggest dick in the room, or thumping our chests the hardest, we must learn to speak to and interact with women in a manner that is more, for lack of a better term, "evolved". Some men may find this difficult to do, since we have been taught otherwise our whole lives, so it is easier to let the wives do the "hunting." Granted, this may make some men look lazy, but that really isn't the case.

 

If they find it difficult to talk, interact, flirt with and charm women, rather than passing it off to their wives to do the "work" for them, why not cultivate the skill for themselves? Isn't it in their best interest?

 

Why don't they "hunt" together equally as a pair, instead of the woman out front doing most of it?

 

Don't most couples find another couple much more attractive and interesting to them if the other male is successfully seducing his wife, and the other woman is seducing you, too? In other words...they're both putting their best foot forward and both making an impression on you?

 

As far as more discriminating, I will also disagree with you. If I am trying to pick up a woman in a vanilla bar, that woman will choose between me and how I carry myself as opposed to every other man there. If I'm a bit of a "pig" in a vanilla bar, that is not necessarily a deal-breaker, if I look better than the other guys there, and you have decided that I'll do.

 

Perhaps I was a very weird single woman, but I never settled for a guy that I thought was a pig, or even a bit of a pig. I'd have gone home and tried again on some other night, hoping that I'd eventually meet a man that I really liked.

 

In a swinging situation, it is expected that I have a better understanding of women, and am better able to engage in conversation that is more "evolved".

 

I guess I've always expected men to engage in intriguing conversation with me (where seduction is concerned), in any setting, vanilla/dating or swinging. It's just what I like, it's what turns me on.

 

To the rest of the world, that often makes me look more "feminine" in nature to other men because this lifestyle is a choice between me and my wife and my sex life is no longer a scorepad to compare in the locker room, which you, as a woman, with all due respect, would not understand.

 

Again, when a man knows how to pursue a woman in a classy way, show interest, make great eye contact, and engage in conversation that intrigues, I don't equate that as anywhere near feminine. In fact, it's very masculine and makes me tingle all over.

 

Is it other MEN who think that men are feminine if they don't engage in locker room behavior?

 

So my question, which I intended to direct more towards the men, was "do you feel like swinging has had a feminizing effect, meaning, have you been able to successfully adapt to the change in strategy this lifestyle requires for men." I don't know how to explain it any clearer than that.

 

It's clear now. I'm sure that the reason this whole thing confused me is simply the very different way that I see it. From my perspective, I don't see why men would need a different strategy in swinging than they would have needed in the single world, because I (as a woman) prefer and enjoy the exact same strategy & style in men that I always have, in any setting.

[cubnamy1995 124]

Of course not...we all swing to please ourselves and for our own relationships, not others. Sorry, but I don't understand the meaning of this statement, or how it fits into the other things you wrote.

 

I'm not questioning anyone's personal preferences (if that was how it was taken), I was just asking questions and trying to genuinely understand what this was all about.

 

(Amy) I was simply trying to relate that my husband is not lazy, nor do I see him as such, but I tend to do more of the hunting initially because more often than not, if he connects with another woman before I do, whether she and I plan to be involved or not, it has been my experience that the other woman does not respect my boundaries with my husband. He often sees a kick-ass smile and a beautiful body much more proficiently than whether she will respect me as his life partner. While swinging is fun for the both of us, it is still a very emotional decision to share my husband with another woman, and in that regard, I feel it only fair to see who I connect with and who I don't on a respect level. In the same way he talks to the other guys and finds out if a possible partner will refer to me as his loving wife or that nasty slut, which my husband would not approve of.

 

Perhaps I was a very weird single woman, but I never settled for a guy that I thought was a pig, or even a bit of a pig. I'd have gone home and tried again on some other night, hoping that I'd eventually meet a man that I really liked.

 

(Amy again)In my personal experience, I do not know a single woman who does not have a "one night I was drinking at the bar..." story that did not end up with a regret fuck. Also in my experience, I do not know of a man who in his "trolling" days did not rely on the law of averages that at least he could be that regret fuck (see the movie "Knocked Up").

 

It's clear now. I'm sure that the reason this whole thing confused me is simply the very different way that I see it. From my perspective, I don't see why men would need a different strategy in swinging than they would have needed in the single world, because I (as a woman) prefer and enjoy the exact same strategy & style in men that I always have, in any setting.

(Cubby) And there is my point. I went through a period where I thought I was a player. There are books out written by "Pick-up artists" on just what kind of game to run to get into those pants. I may very well have miscommunicated what I was trying to say, but then again, men and women do see things from different perspectives.

 

In truth, I really had a light-hearted motivation for asking the question. As you may have noticed by her posts, Amy loves me and totally respects me, but thinks I have a jackassical tendency (hey...I made a new word) to be too much of a "typical guy" in social situations. Is that feminizing? From a woman's perspective, I'm sure it's not. But from a dude's perspective, like my golf buddies, I am whipped because I talk "chic-talk". Unbeknownst to them, I am getting way more action than they could ever dream of, but I can't discuss that because of discretionary concerns.

 

You are absolutely correct that behaving that way gets you way farther with most women then acting like a macho Neanderthal, but not a lot of vanilla guys understand that. Since we were all vanilla at one point, I was just asking the fellas if they had noticed the change in themselves too. No disrespect intended, but even my darling wife has no friggin clue what I'm talking about half of the time. But I do appreciate your comments, and agree with a great many of them.

[eyes4u69 15]

I feel that since my wife and I have been in the Swing Lifestyle over the past 8 years, that I have not had a feminine side, but yet it has greatly shown me how I can share my wife with other very selective men, because of my wife's skills that she has in her physical looks as a curvy female body where another man can enjoy what she does for him, and it allows me to enjoy the lifestyle more because it makes my wife feel more attractive which I find is a positive note for every female that they be reminded of the beauty that they each have, regardless of hair color, body size, and physical looks, as well as the mental heart of a person as well.

 

My wife and I both have met some very beautiful women, but there attitude of thinking that they were better than others is what killed there image that the woman was trying to portray as being that caring and loving woman.

[iapr 24]

I'd like to address this "woman on the hunt to bring back the kill" thing a little more because I think it does have some merit and may be part of what is taking place.

 

The more I think about it, I am probably guilty of this to a degree but I do not believe it is because I am feminine or lazy but because my wife is 3.65 x 10 to the 20th power times more picky than I am.

 

Let me explain a little more. When we are at a club or party I would be quite happy to go out and mingle and flirt and schmooze with women I find attractive BUT 9 times out of 10 a woman that I find attractive will have a partner that Mrs iapr will not be interested in under any circumstances and we do not play separate.

 

So rather than me going out and hunting my own game I let her do her hunting and work with whatever she brings back. Now of the couples that she is interested in, more often than not the female half is usually drop dead gorgeous and looks at me like dried pond scum between the treads of her shoes but that is a separate issue:rolleyes:

 

I don't think we are an isolated couple in this regards. The "she's hot, he's not" phemomenom is well documented and this could be a big contributing factor to guys just sitting around. Many guys have probably learned that since women are so much more picky and selective that it just works better for them as a couple if they sit back and play it cool untill they get the green light from both their partner as well as the other female half in question.

 

So yeah, in retrospect I probably have ran into a number of women that I find acceptable and they may find me acceptable but once I take one look at their partner I know it ain't happening with mrs iapr so I just kind of smile and say, "nice to meet you" and then go on about my business. If someone were on the recieving end of the that or were a casual observer I probably would come off as less than a macho man or lady killer.

 

Now if there is a woman that I like and she seems to like me and I get the green light from Mission Control then I do become much more assertive.

[cubnamy1995 124]

Iapr, that is exactly the point Amy was trying to make. She's pickier than I am. Not that I have lower standards, but I tend to look over things she doesn't. It works for us. Once she's expressed interest, I'm right there trying to work my lame magic.

[Tybee Swing 286]

When we are at a club or party I would be quite happy to go out and mingle and flirt and schmooze with women I find attractive BUT 9 times out of 10 a woman that I find attractive will have a partner that Mrs iapr will not be interested in under any circumstances and we do not play separate.

 

So rather than me going out and hunting my own game I let her do her hunting and work with whatever she brings back.

 

Like probably most couples, Mr. Tybee and I aren't always attracted to the same people, either. We've been in situations where a very friendly, outgoing woman is working the room, targets us, we like her too, but we can't even identify who she's there with, because he's off in a corner somewhere. We've learned to hold back until we can at least spot where he is. Often, she's not saying anything about the husband and we have to ask who she's with. She'll say something like, "Oh, he's over there", and won't initiate introducing us. If we think that it might be a connection and if we feel like pursuing it, we'll say, "Why don't we all go over and talk, and the four of us get to know each other better." It's like, we have to lead her to even get the four of us in the same part of the place to even talk.

 

Hard lesson learned, backing up: Once we were at a house party. A very friendly, fun woman was flirting with us both, and she and I had the kind of chemistry that during a mingling game, we went around as a team and played off of each other during this game..kwim? Fun chemistry. We thought she was single; we certainly didn't see her with anybody at all! Time went by, the flirting got more serious, the three of us really getting into it (talking, kissing, etc), and we all three decided we were going to go to a room together. Suddenly, she said something like, "Oh, let me go tell my husband". Who??? So, Mr. Tybee and I waited, while she went off into the dark corners to a man who had been holding up the wall all night. I thought we were just being introduced and getting permission. But no...he was coming along, too. I hadn't seen or spoken to this man all night, had zero interest, and he was coming along.....Oh well, I figured he was just coming to watch, since he obviously was completely uninvolved with the whole process that the three of us were in (seducing each other and now horny). But, as soon as we got into the room, he was on me. WTF? Obviously, I had to stop things, which was very disappointing, because Mr. Tybee didn't get to finish what he was starting, and the whole thing we were so looking forward to with her just wasn't going to materialize, because of this uninvolved guy imposing himself. It took me a few days of re-running the whole thing in my mind, but I realized that he was one of these guys, just very passive, let her roam until she "caught" someone for him, and then he just came along for a free ride in the 11th hour. Oh HELL, no! Lesson learned.

 

Mr. Tybee and I work the room as a couple. He's not aggressive, but he's certainly friendly. Anyone in the room can tell who we're both there with (easy for them to make an initial decision about us). We each spot people we may be interested in, and point them out to each other. If we both like one, we'll scan the scene until we can figure out who they're with. Once we can see the pair of them, we now can decide if we want to approach, and we approach together. If we don't like them so much after we talk a bit, we just move on. See...hunting as a team. I don't have to do it alone, don't have to make the choice for him, bringing back "whatever" for him. I took us some time to figure all this out (and learning experiences), but it's what works for us.

 

We love to meet couples who are also checking out the scene and participating equally in the flirting process, too! I need to have some indication that the other man is interested. Hey, I'm not going to do all the leading and "throw myself" at a guy I can't even read! 2-way street, guys.

[cubnamy1995 124]

Which makes perfect sense. Amy and I usually do a quick reconnoiter of the room to see what we think physically. Once we've identified a few possible "targets", then while we work the room together, Amy usually does the initial introductions. If she gets a positive vibe, she'll say something to draw me into the conversation. If she does, then I'm right on it, being an equal partner, since hunting in packs works better. If she does not try to draw me in, I know she is thinking of moving on.

 

That sometimes comes off like she's doing the work. She's not. She's doing in person what I do online. Screening potential playmates for well understood no-gos. Once she has made a decision, I roll with it. If I was a wallflower all night, of course I wouldn't expect you just to jump in the sack with me. But chances are pretty good I won't make the initial approach.

 

I think we agree Tybee, just from different directions.

[iapr 24]

Like probably most couples, Mr. Tybee and I aren't always attracted to the same people, either. We've been in situations where a very friendly, outgoing woman is working the room, targets us, we like her too, but we can't even identify who she's there with, because he's off in a corner somewhere. We've learned to hold back until we can at least spot where he is. Often, she's not saying anything about the husband and we have to ask who she's with. She'll say something like, "Oh, he's over there", and won't initiate introducing us. If we think that it might be a connection and if we feel like pursuing it, we'll say, "Why don't we all go over and talk, and the four of us get to know each other better." It's like, we have to lead her to even get the four of us in the same part of the place to even talk.

 

Hard lesson learned, backing up: Once we were at a house party. A very friendly, fun woman was flirting with us both, and she and I had the kind of chemistry that during a mingling game, we went around as a team and played off of each other during this game..kwim? Fun chemistry. We thought she was single; we certainly didn't see her with anybody at all! Time went by, the flirting got more serious, the three of us really getting into it (talking, kissing, etc), and we all three decided we were going to go to a room together. Suddenly, she said something like, "Oh, let me go tell my husband". Who??? So, Mr. Tybee and I waited, while she went off into the dark corners to a man who had been holding up the wall all night. I thought we were just being introduced and getting permission. But no...he was coming along, too. I hadn't seen or spoken to this man all night, had zero interest, and he was coming along.....Oh well, I figured he was just coming to watch, since he obviously was completely uninvolved with the whole process that the three of us were in (seducing each other and now horny). But, as soon as we got into the room, he was on me. WTF? Obviously, I had to stop things, which was very disappointing, because Mr. Tybee didn't get to finish what he was starting, and the whole thing we were so looking forward to with her just wasn't going to materialize, because of this uninvolved guy imposing himself. It took me a few days of re-running the whole thing in my mind, but I realized that he was one of these guys, just very passive, let her roam until she "caught" someone for him, and then he just came along for a free ride in the 11th hour. Oh HELL, no! Lesson learned.

 

Mr. Tybee and I work the room as a couple. He's not aggressive, but he's certainly friendly. Anyone in the room can tell who we're both there with (easy for them to make an initial decision about us). We each spot people we may be interested in, and point them out to each other. If we both like one, we'll scan the scene until we can figure out who they're with. Once we can see the pair of them, we now can decide if we want to approach, and we approach together. If we don't like them so much after we talk a bit, we just move on. See...hunting as a team. I don't have to do it alone, don't have to make the choice for him, bringing back "whatever" for him. I took us some time to figure all this out (and learning experiences), but it's what works for us.

 

We love to meet couples who are also checking out the scene and participating equally in the flirting process, too! I need to have some indication that the other man is interested. Hey, I'm not going to do all the leading and "throw myself" at a guy I can't even read! 2-way street, guys.

 

 

That is a great story and there are many lessons to be learned from it. However I do need to clarify that I am NOT, repeat NOT like that wallflower guy. And Mrs iapr is not at all like the female half you wrote of either.

 

I was metaphorically speaking and not literally speaking in my above post. Mrs iapr would rather stick sharp objects in her eyes than try to close a deal without me and would introduce me within the first few minutes of meeting someone and I would do the same with her.

 

What I was getting at is since her strike zone is so much smaller than mine I do try and follow her lead as much as possible otherwise it is just spitting in the wind. If she were to meet a couple that she likes and were to introduce to me I would definately interact and get to know both parties. Then once I get the green light from her I do flirt and dance and socialize and get to know the other female half.

 

I can see why this is such an issue and how can cause problems and misunderstandings. Your account perfectly illustrates what does occur out there and it probably happens a lot.

[Tybee Swing 286]

It's good to know that you couples (iapr & cubnamy) are actually there as a team, aware of the situation, and actually, you are checking out couples and approaching together. If you're wandering/socializing separately, at least introductions are made within minutes. That's great!

 

I don't know what's up with the Wallflower and Huntress type of couples. Before that experience I shared we were clueless about this, and now we're very aware and watchful of it since then. We avoid it.

 

It really is funny when you go into these settings, and how long it takes to figure out who's with who, with so many of these couples. If couples only play together, and yet they wander the areas separately for much of the time (or one sits alone and the other wanders), it seems counterproductive to their goal.

[hoistsail 18]

The more you play the more that you see and can become interested in. Not sure I would call it feminizing, but considerate adn willing to try new things may to you be feminizing. i don't feel more femine, but in the right conditions I'd be willing to suck the right cock, but I'm not out there looking to do it. I just realize that I am more open than before.

 

For me pleasing and fucking a woman is what turns me on.

[RaysWays 31]

Feminine side? I say no... unless you consider being tuned in to others 'feminine'. Seems to me the attraction of swinging is two or three things -- fun, sharing and heat with others is one. Also, there is a connection with your partner that comes from seeing and accepting the other's sexuality, which can be electrifying. Many swingers report having the hottest sex ever after a party or club. Finally, there is the outlet for bi women to be with women in a way that doesn't challenge the relationship.

 

As to who controls the scene, let's get real! Women control sex in the larger world, where it is much less prominent, and they control it here. The underlying dynamic is that generally the male needs the female to participate, but the reverse is not true ("Single Men Not Allowed, Single Women No Charge"). So at least implicitly, the woman has the power. Power blinds, here and outside. One woman I know who likes gangbangs really gets off on (her words) "being able to pick and choose among the men because they all want her". I personally find this power tripping kind of ugly, and when I told her so, she couldn't at all relate, thought it was 'twisted'. As one who has been in the situation where my partner moved away, I can tell you it is nearly impossible to get back in at all - but women are recruited and can walk right in.

 

And I agree wholeheartedly that advanced forms of sex are much less about one's self and more about one's partner(s). The key: good lovers take their greatest pleasure from the partner's responses. Similar notion to connecting to your own partner's sexuality, which is a prerequisite to knowing how to get him/her to respond. Is this feminine? Frankly, I think it's more common for guys to "get it" than women. I LOVE getting a woman to respond more intensely than she even knew was possible (and she'll remember in the old folks' home). I've never met a woman who was fully there, but I have met guys who "get it".

[luckycple 17]

I think the guys just want to make sure the women are happy so they will continue with the lifestyle and fulfill their sex fantasies. I want my woman to be happy throughout any experience as I know we will do it again if it was good for her.