Swinging friends came out to us this weekend

[nillagrrrl 15]

My girlfriend and I (not swingers) have a couple who are dear friends of ours. (They are a hetero couple; we are lesbians.) Over the years, we have skied with them, dined with them, opened up to them, they to us.... We love these people.

 

Over the last six or eight months, they have been distant, and we started to think they were mad at us. (We used to get together at least once per month, and we've seen them twice in the last eight months.) Well, last weekend, the male had a milestone birthday party. At this party were a bunch of new faces (we've known the couple's other friends for years as well, and none of these people was familiar to us). We ended up talking to one het. couple who seemed cool, but the female bungled the answer to our innocent question, "So, how do you meet [our friends]?"

 

Long story short, our friends ended up coming out to us at the crowded, loud bar where we were celebrating. I was quite surprised, because the female of the couple seems especially WASP-ish. But ya know, good for them. Hell, I'm gay. What the hell am I gonna do? Judge their sexuality?

 

We were a little surprised, but we really don't care if that's their scene. Good for them. It sorta makes one think about what one's friends are doing in the bedroom, but I got over that pretty quickly. (Not only am I completely satiated with my, as you say, "vanilla" lifestyle, but I don't particularly find either of them attractive. Moreover, the male has always seemed like a brother to me.)

 

What is bothering me about this whole thing, though, is two-fold. First, I hate that anything about this bothers me, and I've been analyzing the fact that it does ad nauseam since (blame it on nearly a decade of therapy and 12-step work). I don't want to be a hypocrite, and I can't stand it when gay people come out to their friends/family and the response is, "Oh, I don't care that you're gay; I just care that you lied to me." Bull$hit! That's utter crap.

 

That being said, there is a part of me that feels this way. Here is why I think, though, that it bothers me that they didn't come out to us. First, the male has always told me and my partner about deeply personal things (how he made a big mistake in his marriage long ago, etc., etc.). So how does he keep this a secret for 18 months? We're lesbians for god's sake. We don't have a problem with alternative sexual lifestyles. This male and I have always prided ourselves on being out and proud about who we are, and we were intolerant of hypocrites. In fact, he just shared a story with me about a friend of his who might be gay but is suppressing it. He said he didn't understand that.

 

The other thing that really hurt my feelings is that we have felt like they were blowing us off for months. Now we know why. They just wanted to get laid instead of nurturing a friendship. They blew us off so they could get off! It seems so friggin' high-school-boy like. "I know I could have a meaningful relationship with you two, but I gotta go screw instead."

 

By their own admission, nothing has changed between us that would have altered the friendship. Apparently, they just had something more interesting to do. For 6 or 8 months. It feels like they picked fu**ing over friendship, and that really hurts. Especially because I truly thought they were good people. (And maybe they are, but this situation has made me think otherwise.)

 

I welcome your comments. I have no interest in the "lifestyle," as the incredibly erotic sex I have with my very sexy girlfriend is all that I need.

[Guest Pinmonkey]

I may be completely off here, but I'll give my opinion of why they kept it a secret. While they did share personal information with you about past marrages and relationships, it does sound like (or you didn't specifically mention) that they shaired their bedroom life with you. It read to me as if while you 4 are great friends, they viewed you not as lesbians first, and then couple, but as a couple first. And as such they didn't think that you would be accepting of them swinging or feel that you wanted to hear about it, or that is was simply part of their "extreamly personal" information and you didn't either need to know or didn't they you wanted to know.

 

But like I mentioned. I could be way off, but this is my impression from reading your post.

[warkman 31]

Did you ask them when they started swinging? If so, does their distance from you coincide with that? If it doesn't, then your assumption that "they picked fu**ing over friendship" may be incorrect. If the two coincide, it might be understandable that their new hobby has temporarily changed their focus.

If you're that concerned, why not call them up and talk to them?

[VegasLee 1,486]

"Oh, I don't care that you're gay; I just care that you lied to me." Bull$hit! That's utter crap.

 

With real friends that is not "bullshit". Many get offended because of lying and not the lifestyle. You seem to have just proven it is not bullshit. Your pissed about them not "coming out" to you.

 

Just because your lesbians does not make you any more open minded, just makes you different minded. Most swingers are not any more open minded then anyone else, just different.

 

They found something new and wanted to explore it. It took their time for them to do so, like kids in a candy store. That is very common in life so why get pissed off over it?

 

I am sure there has been some time in your life that you got involved in something that took a lot of your time and you cut back time with others, everyone does it no matter what their lifestyle is.

 

If you feel for your friends like you state you do, get over it, move on and have a great friendship with them. Allow them their time to be what they want to be as they have you.

 

Keep life simple and have fun. Nothing here to be pissed about. Being pissed does no one any good.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

Welcome to the board!

 

Here's a thought or two about your situation.

 

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That being said, there is a part of me that feels this way. Here is why I think, though, that it bothers me that they didn't come out to us. First, the male has always told me and my partner about deeply personal things (how he made a big mistake in his marriage long ago, etc., etc.). So how does he keep this a secret for 18 months?

Most couples NEVER come out to their vanilla friends. It's just the way it is. If you were to spend some time reading the posts in the forums here, you'll see a recurring theme of keeping swinging separate from friends. Not everyone feels this way, but a large percentage do.

 

 

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Apparently, they just had something more interesting to do. For 6 or 8 months. It feels like they picked fu**ing over friendship, and that really hurts. Especially because I truly thought they were good people. (And maybe they are, but this situation has made me think otherwise.)

My wife has a friend that she has known for 35 years. Over that time they were very close, drifted apart for a while, were close again, drifted again... you get the picture. Bottom line is they always know the other is only a phone call away. That's what often happens with friends, whether swinging is involved or not. People drift apart and then back together.

 

FWIW, her friend of 35 years does not know we swing.

 

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I have no interest in the "lifestyle," as the incredibly erotic sex I have with my very sexy girlfriend is all that I need.

Good for you! A great sex life is a good thing.

 

Swinging isn't for everyone. Actually it isn't for almost everyone. But, for those of us that it works for, well, let's just say "it works".

 

Good luck, and don't be too pissed at them!

[TNT 1,155]

First to the Board.

 

I think it's great that you came here to try and find out why you're feeling the way you are about your friends, kudos to you!

 

I'm not sure that any of us will be able to give you an exact reason as to why you're feeling the way you are but...we'll sure try

 

From what I'm reading it seems that you are hurt that your close friends didn't share this part of their life with you...one thing you need to remember is that now that you have found out, your friends haven't changed, just your perception of them has.

 

And that's probably the reason why they didn't tell you in the beginning. They were afraid you would judge them.

 

When becoming involved in anything new, it's always exciting and time consuming. Your friends found something that they obviously both enjoy and they wanted to spend time doing it...yes, they probably could have balanced their time better between their new life/friends and their old ones but, when first becoming involved in swinging it can and does at times occupy a great deal of your time, mainly because of the excitement of it.

 

I think you're hurt because someone close to you didn't reveal every thing about themselves and you may feel a bit left out.

 

The good thing is that now that you know I bet you'll be seeing a lot more of your friends, as now they will feel they won't have to hide things from you and they'll be able to share this new part of their life with you.

 

 

Teresa

[Pensacolapair 394]

......Nothing here to be pissed about.

 

Read the OP closely a couple of times.... and couldn't agree more!

 

As has been mentioned, your friends relate to you as a couple first... your being lesbians is just a part of the mix. There are many, many couples in the Lifestyle who are best of friends with 'vanilla' couples - grew up together, went to school together, in the service together, etc with whom they share family events, holidays, problems and the like. But the fact that they are in the Lifestyle remains unknow to said 'vanilla' friends! It's just one of the dynamics of the Lifestyle for many.

 

The fact that your friends did 'come out' to you is a testimony to the level that they feel your friendship is on. They obviously trust and respect you enough to share this extremely personal knowledge with you.

 

As was said, people often do get tunnel-vision when they get into a new pursuit... it doesn't mean their feelings about other relationships or pursuits has changed.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I can definately see where your feelings would be hurt here... and to me it's much more about the fact that they were apparantly blowing you for for the last 8 months or so. I would sit down and talk with them about your feelings, be honest. Ask them WHY they felt they couldn't be open with you and why they felt they had to put you on the backburner while they made all these new friends rather than allowing you to continue to be involved in their lives? Were they scared that if they came out to you that YOU would want to participate with them? Are they secretely attracted to you but know thatyou wouldn't be open to anything more and therefore felt that it was better to push you off?

 

Get all of these questions and answers out of the way and I just bet that you'll have your friends back to the way things used to be.

[nillagrrrl 15]

I appreciate all the feedback and info. Another thing that I am realizing that I am feeling is jealousy--not sexual jealousy, but friendship jealousy. They are apparently the type who stay friends with their FBs (what do you call friends you have swung with?), and they have all this affection for them, which I am happy for them in that respect, truly I am. But those friends share an intimacy with them that my partner and I never will (i.e., the sex), and I feel that the friendship will slip away slowly, as they hang out with the sex partners more.

 

As for them being scared to come out to us, the male (especially) knows me. He and I always joke that we're the same person--we finish each other's sentences, etc. He KNOWS (and I KNOW he KNOWS) that I couldn't give a rat's patootie if he and his wife were swinging--with others or from the chandelier. As long as innocent people (or animals) weren't being hurt, he knows I could not care less.

 

It's kinda like being in a foreign land, when you find out these people you know (or thought you knew) have this whole secret life and all of these other "friends" and have been spending their time and money in these ways. I could see if we were sexually-repressed, Christian right-wingers, but we're liberal, open-minded, atheist lesbians. We've kept his confidences about sexual things he has shared related to his marriage.

 

To those who never come out to your vanilla friends: Give us a chance. If you lose friends over something you do in the bedroom, then I say they're not real friends. Don't risk losing them because they feel like they don't even know you because you managed to compartmentalize your life so very well.

 

I feel hurt that they didn't tell us, and when I went to that party, I felt like a complete jackass because we were suddenly not part of the group of friends and close to the b-day boy, but more like party-crashers who were now outsiders.

[nillagrrrl 15]

And I do appreciate the perspective of others, so please keep the posts coming!

[two4youinswva 3,068]

I feel hurt that they didn't tell us, and when I went to that party, I felt like a complete jackass because we were suddenly not part of the group of friends and close to the b-day boy, but more like party-crashers who were now outsiders.

 

Now that I can understand. It does suck to feel like an outsider when you aren't expecting it.

 

People do things we don't like sometimes, and sometimes it hurts. If you don't think their intention was to hurt you, then try to forgive and move past it.

 

FWIW, when we started swinging a few years back, one of the first people we told was a very close friend of ours that happened to be a lesbian. She accepted this and was not really surprised at all, knowing us the way she does.

[nillagrrrl 15]

I know I'm posting a lot (just trying to earn custom avatar priveleges, hee hee), but I just wanted to thank everyone for letting me process this here so that I can learn, vent, and understand our friends' position better and hopefully be able to remain friends with them.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

nillagrrrl said:

Another thing that I am realizing that I am feeling is jealousy--not sexual jealousy, but friendship jealousy. They are apparently the type who stay friends with their FBs (what do you call friends you have swung with?), and they have all this affection for them, which I am happy for them in that respect, truly I am. But those friends share an intimacy with them that my partner and I never will (i.e., the sex), and I feel that the friendship will slip away slowly, as they hang out with the sex partners more.

 

I can definately understand this and I think it's a pretty normal thing. Even if there wasn't the swinger issue...just the fact that your friends suddenly have this new set of friends with different interests than you and you feel like an outsider.

 

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As for them being scared to come out to us, the male (especially) knows me. He and I always joke that we're the same person--we finish each other's sentences, etc. He KNOWS (and I KNOW he KNOWS) that I couldn't give a rat's patootie if he and his wife were swinging--with others or from the chandelier. As long as innocent people (or animals) weren't being hurt, he knows I could not care less.

 

One thing to understand and I think you will more as you read more of the threads here is that it's hard for US (the swingers) as we work our way into this new lifestyle to know who to trust with this new bit of information about ourselves, we don't know who might judge us or who won't. And even if HE knows YOU can be trusted (he might not have been as sure about your partner, or perhaps his wife wasn't as sure. The only way you really be able to come to terms with these questions is to ask THEM and find out why they didn't tell you and let them know that their not telling you really HURT you.

 

I know that not seeing them hurt quite a bit as well, and I just had a thought that maybe it wasn't so much that they were avoiding you but just that as they were exploring this new hobby (that you didn't share) that much like when a friend gets a new boyfriend or girlfriend you see them less for a while. It's like having a new toy, you get so wrapped up in it that sometimes you let other things slide.

 

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To those who never come out to your vanilla friends: Give us a chance. If you lose friends over something you do in the bedroom, then I say they're not real friends. Don't risk losing them because they feel like they don't even know you because you managed to compartmentalize your life so very well.

 

Excellent point. My best friend does NOT know that we swing, and I doubt I will tell her. Honestly, I think she probably would be ok with it but I just don't feel the need to let her in on this particular part of our lives. Much like the minute details of our sex life in general, it's just not something I go around talking to her about. I have a few other friends (on the other hand) that I don't consider to be as good of friends but they do know, because it has just come up for other reasons.

 

Some food for thought as you work way through this.... you may also want to take a look at a few threads from the other side of the coin, you'll find several threads dealing with various issues of friendship in this archive:

Friendship & Swinging - The Swingers Board

[funcpl4life 51]

nillagrrrl said:

To those who never come out to your vanilla friends: Give us a chance. If you lose friends over something you do in the bedroom, then I say they're not real friends. Don't risk losing them because they feel like they don't even know you because you managed to compartmentalize your life so very well.

 

JUST like being gay, you don't know who you can trust with the information and who will take the opportunity to stab you in the back with it. There are people fired and harassed around here for being any sort of "pervert". (i.e. not just cheating like "normal" people)

[nillagrrrl 15]

And I guess where I differ from those here (and the population at large), is that I don't "choose" to come out to some people and not to others. Everyone who knows anything about me knows I'm a homo. Even the cable and the phone companies know! As Popeye says, "I just yam who I yam." And I respect less those who are not the same with their lives. And the male of this couple feels just the same way and is vocal about his feelings, too.

 

These people are my friends. They knew that I cheated on my ex-spouse with my now-S.O. during the last week of that marriage. I knew one of them cheated on the other years ago. It's not like we kept things from one another. Sheesh, one time I saw their bank account balance because they felt so safe with us.

 

So, if they were afraid to tell us, I honestly can't see why.

 

I don't agree that not sharing such a significant part of your life with your friends is just "not sharing the details of a couple's sex life." I take exception to that. If I happen to enjoy occasional strap-on sex with my hot g/f and don't tell them, that's totally understandable. But if I had all these friends who liked to strap it on, and if I went to strap-on parties, and if I grew a social circle and spent time with strap-on enthusiasts whilst neglecting other relationships in my life, all the while not mentioning anything to these friends, just avoiding them, and then all of a sudden invited the strap-on friends and these friends to a party without telling anyone anything, then that's just awkward. I mean, I think it's just disrespectful to do that to people whom you call your friends.

[nillagrrrl 15]

funcpl4life said:

JUST like being gay, you don't know who you can trust with the information and who will take the opportunity to stab you in the back with it. There are people fired and harassed around here for being any sort of "pervert". (i.e. not just cheating like "normal" people)

 

One more thing (which may draw ire from many members of this board)... You all choose your lifestyle and enjoy it. Good for you. Anyone should be able to do whatever they want among consenting adults without repercussions (socially, economically, professionally). I COMPLETELY support sexual freedom among consenting adults.

 

However, being gay (for me and many others) involves little or no choice. And we can get fired for it legally in most states, including good ol' Texas.

 

So while I can sympathize with being harassed or fired for being swingers, you can stop being swingers and just be with your partner (even though you shouldn't have to and may not want to). From what I've read on these posts, many swingers do stop for a while at some point in their lives.

 

I can't ever stop being gay.

[sexychoclit 32]

I can understand where you are coming from. I was distant from my family when I first started in the lifestyle. My family knew that I was traveling a lot to hang out with my new "friends" and when I came out to them that I was in the lifestyle they were very angry. They always felt that I might be a lesbian (which I'm not, I'm bisexual), but they were upset that I wasn't honest with them about what I was doing. Next, they were upset because of the time that I was spending with my friends.

 

I can definitely understand that because technically I did lie to them, but the way I see it is (1) I'm a grown adult and it's really not any of there business and (2) what if the lifestyle thing is just a phase? Why reveal something so personal if it something that was going to come and go. Well, I've been doing this off and on for going on four years now and for those people who are close to me and are in my circle, I have no problem with telling them.

 

There was a time when gays and lesbians faced ridicule because of their choices. Give it some time and you will find more people being honest and open about what they do in the privacy of their bedroom, or a hotel room, or a club. With shows like "Swingtown", being in the lifestyle will be looked at as just another sexual preference.

[Swing*8701 887]

Susan here -- All things being equal, the simple answer is usually the right one.

 

Now, they were trying something new and didn't want to explain to anyone what they were trying or doing until they were ready. Swinging is socially provocative. Now they've told you after several months of experimentation. That's all there is to it.

 

So for that last 6-8 months you saw them less than normal. That happens in every friendship for a vast number of reasons. I encourage you not to take it personally. It won't be the last time this occurs in your life. Lastly, real life is often just an extension of high school

[bellady 16]

They found something new and wanted to explore it. It took their time for them to do so, like kids in a candy store. That is very common in life so why get pissed off over it?

 

I am sure there has been some time in your life that you got involved in something that took a lot of your time and you cut back time with others, everyone does it no matter what their lifestyle is.

 

I agree with Lee

[nillagrrrl 15]

They found something new and wanted to explore it. It took their time for them to do so, like kids in a candy store. That is very common in life so why get pissed off over it?

 

I am sure there has been some time in your life that you got involved in something that took a lot of your time and you cut back time with others, everyone does it no matter what their lifestyle is.

 

I agree with Lee:iagree:

 

I can see that. And I'm not angry. Hurt and confused about the concealment, maybe, because the guy hadn't kept anything else from me of this nature, but not angry.

 

I am good at telling myself I shouldn't feel a certain way about things. No help needed there. I came here for some insight from their perspective.

[alphaplaycpl 110]

I have been reading through the previous posts, and I think a better understanding of why your friends may have waited so long to tell you about their new pastime lies in understanding that "coming out" can mean something very different to a swinger>

 

If a person who is homosexual "comes out" to friends or family, very little of the emotional investment actually has to do with something sexual. Coming out in this case is a defining moment, revealing that a person is not only drawn to a person of the same sex for sexual reasons, but also because a person feels that he/she could find a loving, committed, and fulfilling relationship with a person of the same sex. To find such a person as a significant other would make her/him a part of your family.

 

Swinging is different. To "come out" as a swinger is to reveal something purely sexual about yourself, and perhaps about the people you are having sex with. I have lots of friends who are swingers, but we do not necessarily play with them. I have lots of friends who are couples and singles, but are not swingers. And, yes, we also have a lot of swinger friends who we play with. If I were to imagine all of these people in one room together, I do not feel a particular responsibility to any of these friends to reveal that I have had sex with any of them. In fact, I feel a responsibility NOT to reveal this - as if it is "kissing and telling."

 

I hope that you will consider that it may not have been a trust issue of your friendship as to why your friends may have waited to tell you about their new lifestyle. I think that it is true that friends can drift for any number of reasons. If you were to discuss this with your friends you might ask them why they may have invited you to a party which obviously seems as if it were heavily populated with swinger friends without giving you a "head's up." I can see how that may have made you feel as though you were the only ones not "in" on the secret. If I were to invite my vanilla friends to a gathering with lots of swingers, I would expect them to notice something was up...

[Chicup 42]

I'm not going to be nice to you about this, grow up.

 

Swinging is currently MORE taboo than being gay. Its just not something almost any of us talk about with anyone who's not a swinger. We don't have pride parades, we don't have lobbyists, we don't have campus groups or any of that. We don't have the same issues, but go to middle America subburb and do you think the gay couple on the corner or the swinger couple across the street would get more gossip about them?

 

We simply keep to ourselves and want to be left alone in that respect.

 

You should be somewhat honored they told you, even if the circumstances were not ideal. This is NOT the thing you share with friends. My best man at my wedding doesn't know about us, nor will he. They had a party full of swingers AND invited you, think about that for a moment. They have all these new friends and despite the risk of being 'outed' they still invited you and took that risk. Honestly I wouldn't do that with my vanilla friends.

 

So they trust you more than most people trust their friends.

 

Secondly, yes they spent less time with you, they were making new friends, they couldn't tell you about it or invite you along. What could they have said? Hey sorry we have a swing club we would like to check out and saturday night is the only night we have free, maybe next week?

 

This is a lifestyle change for them, they are not the same people they were prior to trying this, you can be supportive, understand that it meant less time for you to hang out with them for a while and move on.

 

I do have one more thing to add...

 

I welcome your comments. I have no interest in the "lifestyle," as the incredibly erotic sex I have with my very sexy girlfriend is all that I need. :facelick

 

Your implication is that we NEED more in this and this is why we do this. This means you don't understand swinging as many of us (and it sounds like your friends as well) practice. Most successful swingers have no real sexual issues with our spouses, its not what draws us to swinging. You use the fact that you are gay as a reason they should have told you, but just being gay doesn't mean you understand swinging, it means you are attracted to the same sex, period. Lesbians can be as jealous and no ttrusting of their partners as any heterosexual couple, I've seen it, and its ugly. Don't feel to bad about this one swingers are not very open minded about MM sex either. The issue is that just because you are into one alternative type of lifestyle it doesn't mean you are open to all and they were obviously not sure how you would react to it.

[ncmd_couple 597]

NillaGrrrl,

 

Hi and welcome to the board. You will have to forgive me, we are on our honeymoon and I haven’t been on the site much, other things occupying our time! So I’m trying to catch up. We are in Tampa tonight and headed to Georgia tomorrow. Damn, wish we could meet a great couple on here that live in Georgia! Sigh, another trip…

 

The first thing that I would like to say about your situation is that discretion is a major part of the swinging lifestyle. It might be ok for us to tell someone that we swing, but it is an absolute no-no for us to disclose information about those that we swing with. And with the open relationship that you have had with them would make them afraid that you would ask the question, “Oh really, and who are you swinging with?” Your friends probably would not have told you the truth, but they were “outed” by guests at the party. I’m guessing that there are people at that party that are not happy that their relationships in the swinging community are now known by others. It isn’t like the gay community. It is politically incorrect to go after gays today. It is fair game to go after swingers as well as other lifestyles. I grew up in N. E. Texas, so I know all about the Bible Belt. And as you are living in Texas, you have been reading the news as well. They were probably protecting their new friends because it is expected in our community, more than they didn’t want to tell you. That was a very sharp fence that they were sitting on.

 

As others have said, something new to them, like entering the swinger lifestyle, is time consuming because they as a couple are trying to get a grip on this both individually and as a couple. And if you look at the wide range of topics here, you will see that there are a lot of issues for every couple that they have to come to grips with.

 

You’re a lesbian. You feel, and you’re correct for you, that this is a natural thing for you. Swingers don’t really have any more choice in what we are than you are. We are just honest about it to ourselves and our spouse and our swinger friends. This is a genetic thing for us as well. And it is probably more predominate than being gay or lesbian. It just doesn’t get a nickel worth of research money and we don’t have any advocacy groups. But instead of being open and honest swingers, they have affairs. And there sure is a hell of a lot of people having affairs!!!

 

My mother and father have had a running affair for 54 years. He is married, and compartments his life. He loves my mother and sees her at least once a week unless life gets in the way. But he very carefully compartments his two separate lives. No one in his “real” world knows about me or my mother. He lives a life very much like the gay community did 30 years ago. The difference between father and son is that I didn’t want to live a lie. I was living one, and I was damn unhappy about it, but I didn’t know how to solve my problems. I had many conversations with my mother about the fact that I was not monogamist either, but didn’t want to live in two worlds like my father did. Eventually I discovered swinging. Eventually I came clean with my now newly wed wife. And I’m happy as hell now. So no, how we live our lives is no more a “choice” than it is for you. We are who we are. Each of us. And monogamy is a social norm forced on those that are not by nature and or upbringing. It isn’t obviously the majority based on the percentages of men and women who have affairs and I don’t even want to shed a spotlight on what happens in the gay community. You know better than I do. Some look at swinging as a choice because it soothes their social soul against what they were told all of their lives. But honestly, if it wasn’t part of who they naturally were, they would never have found themselves swinging in the first place.

 

As for your friends “new friends.” That is a no-brainer. I have to have some emotional attraction to someone that I take to bed. I’m just not a slam-bam-thank you kind of guy. I don’t pick women up at bars and the one time I did it was a run, do not walk, to the nearest exit experience!!! It is understandable that they would build relationships with them. After a few months their lives will settle back to a more normal pace and your quality time with them will improve. And hey, you just might meet some nice folks that will expand your circle of friends. Yeah, I’m a cup is half full kind of guy also.

 

Like anything in life, it is usually more complicated than it initially appears. I’m really glad to see that you found this board to discuss your issues. There are a lot of great people here!!! I hope that I was able to help you with a viewpoint from a swinger for whom it isn’t a choice for…

[ViSexual 1,008]

Nillagrrrl,

 

My wife and I have a dear, lesbian, friend and I'm trying to put myself in your friends' (the husband's) position in this.

 

Our friend and I, like you and the husband, are total buddies and share everything.

We even went to bike week once for a weekend together, just the two of us.

 

Now this friend is not a swinger either, at all! But I did tell her about me and the wife's adventures in swinging. I guess I've told her everything about us over the years.

 

She and her S/O got back together last year. They'd been apart for a couple of years and it was that period of time that we, three, got so close. We don't really care that much for her S/O so we don't get to see her much anymore.

 

I miss the frequent get-togethers and understand your feelings about that. But, I don't feel her wanting to be with her S/O as her putting sex over friendship. Does that help?

 

And, I totally don't understand how you're comparing being hetero, gay, or lesbian as being anything close to what the lifestyle is?

 

In today's world there are a lot more jobs that could be lost for being outed as 'swingers' than being outed as gay!

 

I'm sure they love and trust you but you need to understand how they might have really decided to not share that fact with anyone but their swinging friends.

[nillagrrrl 15]

Nillagrrrl,

I miss the frequent get-togethers and understand your feelings about that. But, I don't feel her wanting to be with her S/O as her putting sex over friendship. Does that help?

 

It does, good point. I think the stages of feelings I am going through are completely normal, and as I feel the feelings and they pass, which I find incredibly healthy, then I can approach the friendship cleanly, without all the emotions that are mine and mine alone to deal with. Thank you for sharing, it helps.

[nillagrrrl 15]

NillaGrrrl,

It is politically incorrect to go after gays today.

Oh, if only... I so wish you were right about that, but homophobia is still alive, well, and too common and too acceptable in this country. If you need a little visual proof or real-life proof, gather up a few bi swingers. How many are men?

 

My state just passed a constitutional amendment against gay marriage--the first amendment that actually denies rights to people--in AMERICA! That's not even the start of the oppression, but it's a huge sign of it. Yes, being gay is becoming more socially acceptable (especially if you don't look super fag-ish or super dyke-ish), but it is certainly not politically incorrect just yet to lampoon or oppress them. It's not even illegal to do so in many states. (Oppress them, that is. Lampooning them falls under free speech.)

[nillagrrrl 15]

And, I totally don't understand how you're comparing being hetero, gay, or lesbian as being anything close to what the lifestyle is?

 

In today's world there are a lot more jobs that could be lost for being outed as 'swingers' than being outed as gay!

 

No there aren't. And professional lives aside, there are literally hundreds (about 300, I think) rights and privileges that you as primarily or solely heterosexuals (regardless of your swinging status) enjoy.

 

• You can share insurance (health, auto, home). We can't automatically. Many extra things have to be put in place. And if a company offers domestic partner benefits (most do not), the IRS counts that as additional income and taxes the employee on it.
• Stuff is, at least in Texas, automatically split when you divorce. My ex and I (we had a ceremony and lived as spouses for nearly 9 years) got the house and most of its contents, and I got... $900. You don't lose out on your community property just because you have multiple sex partners.
  
• In 1995, a Florida judge awarded custody to the father, who was a convicted murderer, rather than the mother, because the mother was a lesbian, and Judge Joseph Tarbuck believed that the girl should not be brought up in a lesbian household. The judge did not address the father's murder conviction in his ruling and apparently did not consider allegations that he had molested the daughter of the wife that he killed. (Sorry, but just not the kind of thing that happens to parents who swing. And if it does, I'd venture to say that a significant percentage of the time, I'll bet same-gender sex is a factor.)
  
• My friend with brain cancer died without her partner, a nurse, who had cared for her for the last two years during the worst part of the cancer, because my friend's parents wouldn't let her see her own partner. WTF?!?!?!
  

I could go on, I have dozens of examples. I think it's flat wrong for anyone to suffer for their sexual politics, but please do not compare your situation to that of the LGBT community. Yes, there are lots of similarities and there is a bit of overlap. But at the root, the overwhelming majority of you are hetero (or bi, which means you can identify as hetero if you are put in a situation where you feel forced to). You can share your partner's life and feel safe that you will automatically receive all the rights and benefits--income tax breaks, getting to write of the interest on the mortgage... hell, I get penalized on my auto insurance because I'm "not married."

 

And in many states, you don't even have to get married for these benefits. So long as you're hetero and co-habitate. It's your primary relationship that counts, not your additional ones, in the eyes of the law. You get lots and lots and lots of protection/safety/security under the law for being hetero. Yeah, you might get looked down on for being "perverts," and you might even lose a job over it, but shit, that double-standard exists for a women having an affair versus a man having one. We're called the predatory term "cougars" for going after a younger man. Men are revered for this same behavior, or they are said to be "having a mid-life crisis."

 

Though you may not be able to tell your co-workers that you plan to have multiple sex partners over the weekend (though single men do it all the time), at least you don't ever feel like you have to watch your pronouns when you talk about mundane occurrences, like going to the doctor or visiting the in-laws or a cancer scare. You probably even say your spouse's or S.O.'s name at work--maybe your co-workers have even met him/her. You think gay people are out like that? A few are. Most aren't.

 

Are swingers targets for hate crimes? When was the last time one swinger was ganged-up on and beaten to death for being a swinger? Who is your Matthew Shepherd?

 

I am not trying to come across as a militant gay person, but it deeply offends me that you're trying to liken your sexual activities to a real oppressed minority. Bad luck or unfortunate sexual repression by a boss isn't the same as systematic oppression. People still get killed just for being gay, and many states don't even have laws making it hate crime.

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

Before I go beating the keyboard to death, only to be waaaay off track, I think I should ask a couple of questions....

 

What thoughts has your other half shared with you on the situation?

 

Are her feelings towards this couple overall(as close friends--not the incident) the same as yours, slightly less, or more, ect?

[sweet_tna 680]

Here’s my take on the situation. You’re upset because a couple with whom you felt you were close friends: 1) Seemingly blew you off for the better part of a year; 2) Did not confide in you about something you felt they should have trusted you with ; 3) Left you feeling the “odd ones out” at the birthday party; 4) Have changed, and you’re not sure what to make of this change.

 

1) Starting swinging is like a being a kid in a candy store. Your eyes glaze over as you see all the different new flavors there are out there to try. You get excited, a bit overwhelmed at first, and it does tend to consume a lot of your time (much like any other new “hobby”). That doesn’t mean they stopped caring about you, or no longer valued your friendship.

 

2) While you may be comfortable outing yourself to everyone, I’m sure it would be a fair assessment that not everyone involved in an alternative lifestyle (be it gay, S&M, swinging, or whatever) is always anxious to tell all their friends about it. Part of the excitement for us is the taboo nature of it all. And I don’t care to enter the debate about whether swingers or gays have it harder in regard to “coming out”—apples and oranges to me. The one thing we do all have in common is that there is a definite risk in telling others, especially those close to you. Your own reaction is proof of why they probably kept their mouths shut:

I truly thought they were good people. (And maybe they are, but this situation has made me think otherwise.)

I haven’t told my best friend, whom I’ve known for 28 years, nor will I.

 

3) This, I’m sure was unintentional. But please remember that you WERE invited to this party. And they had to have realized you would have questions,even if their friends didn’t inadvertently “out” them. So they DID place their trust in you. Just not when you wanted it to happen.

 

4) Yes, your friends have changed a bit, but not in ways that should affect your friendship. If you truly consider yourself their friend (and I think you do just by coming here to ask these questions), you’ll try to forgive them for any slights, perceived or real, and support them.

 

=)

[nillagrrrl 15]

Before I go beating the keyboard to death, only to be waaaay off track, I think I should ask a couple of questions....

 

What thoughts has your other half shared with you on the situation?

 

Are her feelings towards this couple overall(as close friends--not the incident) the same as yours, slightly less, or more, ect?

Her feelings are the same. In fact, the male was friends with her first. She doesn't feel as strongly as I do about the perception of being slighted, but she agrees with me, to be sure. She generally feels less strongly about friendships than I do.

 

I understand they were trying something new. I get that we should feel honored we were invited to the party. I have e-mailed him and asked to chat. We'll see if he answers me.

 

The insights here have been good ones.

 

I want to support them in their foray into swinging, and I want to be their friends. I'd prefer not to be "dissed" in favor of new "friends" just because the new friends are having sex with them. I think that's probably easy to do, and I hope they don't do it.

 

But I need to have this conversation with him. Let's see if he accepts my invitation to chat.

[nillagrrrl 15]

Okay, hold everything. Thanks for the advice, everyone, I appreciate it very much.

 

They are swingers, but there's also some other stuff afoot, and it turns out that I don't know the whole story.

 

(Do we ever really?)

 

Thanks everyone.

[graygo98 148]

As for them being scared to come out to us, the male (especially) knows me. He and I always joke that we're the same person--we finish each other's sentences, etc.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here... he knows you very well and probably saw that you would behave exactly the way you are behaving now. I don't mean to be rude, but really! Why is your nose so far out of joint because he never told you something that is frankly none of your business?

 

Could this dear friend expect understanding from you? Apparently not. Your take on it: "The other thing that really hurt my feelings is that we have felt like they were blowing us off for months. Now we know why. They just wanted to get laid instead of nurturing a friendship. They blew us off so they could get off!" A real friend doesn't put down what another friend choses to do in such a contemptuos and demeaning way.

 

Sure, he and his wife weren't seeing you because they were swinging. But if you read more than a couple of threads on the this board you would know that for many couples its about way more than just screwing other people. Hell, that's just meat and friction. And its not the "kids in the candy store" entranced by all the new "strange" that's come into their lives, either. If they are like my wife and I its about the sheer excitement and growth it has brought into their relationship as a couple. Regardless of how close you may be to him, if his marriage is worth a damn you are not even close to being as important to him as his relationship with his wife is.

[WeMayTryIt 120]

I'm not trying to be bombastic, and I hope I don't come off that way, I'm just trying to put things into perspective. One of the main things I hear from the gay community is some flavor of, "What I choose to do in my own bedroom is none of your business", with which I agree 100%, gay or straight. Granted, they're friends and friends generally share some degree of intimate details with each other, but they probably just felt it is really none of your business--it cuts both ways. I mean, do you feel the need to know whether they enjoy anal sex, the use of sex toys, etc., and that if they don't tell you they do they're lying or hiding something from you? There's no agenda to gain acceptance for their lifestyle, they probably just want to live their life the way they want to without people thinking it's any of their concern, much like you I imagine.

 

As for the issue of them not contacting you, the idea of a kid in a candy store is probably pretty close. When we started about a year ago, it consumed a lot of our mental energy and time, because it was something totally new to us, after many years of self-suppression. Aside from the fun-factor, there was a lot of deep-level communication going on and processing new emotions, etc. Unless you find that there was some intentional, dubious motive for the distance, I would give them a little slack on the whole thing.