dealing with religious guilt?

[cupl4fun 361]

My wife and I both struggled for quite some time with how God viewed swinging (we were both raised in the church) just wanted to share that we read a great book dealing with what the Bible really says about sex and thought it might help some others it's called Divine Sex by Philo Thelos. It helped us quite a lot and thought maybe it could help some others. We didn't agree with all of it but most of it is really sound and logical.

[JustMrJ 178]

My wife was raised Catholic and I was raised Christian.

 

Our views on this are that most of the 'rules' set down ages and ages ago were to deal with disease and that marriage for love in those days was probably the exception and not the rule.

 

Now I'm not sure if the "marriage for love" thing has become the rule, but I would expect that most people are at least trying for that instead of having arranged marriages.

 

So for us, love is love and sex is sex. My father also told me once that sex is not forever and you really need love to keep a marriage alive. Although we can go quite a ways into our later years and still perform, it's still not the primary part of a successful marriage. And it's not all of what a marriage is about. We think there are many other subtle things that we communicate to each other physically outside of sex that are expressions of love. Sex is primarily sex and secondarily love to us. Sometimes just a hug, a kiss, a cuddle, or even a look is enough for love to be communicated.

 

With us there is no guilt because we are both adults that have made our own decision about how we want to play and enjoy ourselves. If that means my wife is 'serviced' by another man or men, or I am 'serviced' by another woman or women... that is what we CHOOSE to do.

 

If it was infidelity, then I would think that one of us would feel guilt ... as it should be since you should ALWAYS be honest and caring towards your spouse's needs. Lies and betrayal have absolutely no place in a successful marriage.

[ownerspet 506]

First, I will say that religion is not for me or for the mrs, as both of us were brought up in a somewhat hypocracy of religion (christianity to be specific, and primarily baptist). Does that mean that all christianity is filled with hypocracy or that all baptist is even? I don't know, but what we've seen is filled with it. Then with so many people that live forever that are scum bags in my opinion, and so many people that are good that go through much bad stuff, I find it hard to beleive that a loving god exists. If you believe it, fine I'm not going to bash you over the head.

 

However, I will point out something to you. Religion or religous books (aka the bible, the koran, etc.) were translated by man in we'll say "oldern days". It was probably translated several times by man, resulting in a version that due to the motivations of the translators and varying opinions it probably isn't in it's original version and there are probably some changes that were motivated by personal gain of individuals. After all if I was to be the leader, and I could say pay me a percentage of your earnings as "a gift to god" or "tithe", I might do it to. So I would get this great salary or income from you and lots of others to run my organization or government. Or if I wanted you to live my way and my way only; and I were translating a religous book, I might be tempted make a rule that said you had to live my way. I'm not like that though and I obviously don't have a religion that I dictate to people.

 

How does this relate to guilt? I believe religion is a man made set of rules, and at a minimum it was greatly modified depending on the powers of time when particular translations were made of what ever religous book in question. On this note: In order to feel guilty over breaking a rule, we have to whole heartedly agree with the rule being broken. I'm pretty sure some where I heard that King James was homosexual (yes of the King James Old English Version of the Christian Bible). I don't think many in the Christian Religion today would openly agree that that was ok.

 

As this relates to swingers, the rules may be different for different couples, as many of us have different boundaries between us and our significant others.

 

So, I would not feel guilty over whether I'm in line with some religous beleifs.

[ViSexual 1,008]

Oh my,

 

Ownerspet, I've always felt pretty much like you..., 'without guilt, how could the church survive?'

 

But, just because you and I (and maybe some others) here have this belief, let's not push it on others.

 

This is a real problem with some swingers.

 

And, Cpl4fun, I just might read the book myself. Sounds very interesting.

[cupl4fun 361]

I may have made a mistake here bringing one of the two unmentionables up (politics and religion). I definitely do not look down on anyone for their beliefs and am not trying to change anyone's beliefs. I just found the book to be very helpful in relieving most of my religious guilt and shame about sex and swinging and thought it might be helpful for others who've been in our shoes. If you're not dealing with those issues then this thread might not be worthwhile for you but if you are I think this book might really help. If you would like to discuss some of those issues you're dealing with or the book we would be happy to do that. I believe that no matter what your beliefs; life is too short to be lived under the crushing weight of guilt and shame and if I find something that might help I want to share it. My intention was only to help.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

I may have made a mistake here bringing one of the two unmentionables up (politics and religion).

Actually, only politics is verboten.

 

Religion is a occasional topic on the board, and there have been some interesting discussions in the last few years. Some more productive than others, but definitely some intriguing thoughts.

 

I was brought up in the church, and still remember most of the teachings, but now I'm an agnostic, with FSM leanings.

 

Thanks for sharing your info, and don't apologize for trying to help others.

[VegasLee 1,486]

I don't feel ownerspet was pushing his view on anyone anymore then he is pushing swinging on anyone. He did no more then express his personal view on the subject.

 

Now if the whole world would fall into that same frame of mind there would be a lot less wars and worry in this world.

 

It's called live and let live, to bad most won't do that. Someone always want to judge others by their own standards in this life.

[JoeB 17]

I guess we are members of the "Hypocrite" religion, Southern Baptist. I am a deacon & SS teacher and, yes, we swing. Is it wrong or right, I not sure. We were both widowed and long, happy marriages. When we met, we said life was to short (my wife had not been with another man until she started in the lifestyle). We keep our lifestyle separate from our religion, the same way we keep it from our family (grown childred) and work. We never play behind one anothers back, that's cheating and that is wrong.

 

We know other couples that do too. So, we do not judge persons if they are religious or not. Our two cents.

[ownerspet 506]

I wasn't trying to push my views on anyone else, I was just giving my input to the subject.

 

I guess we are members of the "Hypocrite" religion, Southern Baptist.

 

For the record, I did not say "all" baptist, "all" religion or "all" of anything is charaterized by hypocracy. I actually used the words, "from what we've seen." I was refering to my experiences and what the mrs has told me about her experiences, in growing up in religous groups that were filled with hypocracy. If you are some how offended by my view, it's quite alright, as I understand everyone doesn't agree on everything.

 

In response to cupl4fun:

 

I do realize that you are suggesting a book for any individuals coping with guilt of swinging vs religion. And, I actually hope that swingers dealing with guilt can benefit from it, I was just including my input, which does have a varying point of view.

[Bama0468 93]

Well now... as a religiously raised person I would like to point out that as you study anything of those day you need to think about when, to whom, and by whom it was written. Since the dead sea scrolls are not completely intact, and we as fallible man tried to insert what "made sense" to us in the vacancies, and as some of the men that created (formatted) the bible left out some books that they felt were 'not' inspired, some of which the catholics used and even some of the others were rejected by them.

 

Since all these writings were left out, I dare say very few have read or even tried to research them ( provided you knew they existed).

 

It is my view based on my own belief and personal research that all things in marriage, done by the consenting couple, are all well in good PROVIDED it is with in the laws of the land (I.E. children would be taboo, animals etc.)

 

now any book that might help explain theses things better than some of us can would be most welcome, after all I am sure the author was inclined to balance things out in a manner that would not impugn them and bring them undue lawsuits.

[Chris&Amelia 253]

I personally believe in God. But I can't say I'm all that big on organized religions, which I tend to view as a scam to initially control the masses and then, later on, fleece them of their hard-earned money.

 

I've always lived my life by the philosophy of "Try not to harm anybody." I donate the charity, do volunteer work, etc. not because I feel I'm obligated, but because it helps people who need it.

 

I view myself as a good person. Now, I realize that this is a highly subjective viewpoint... some people I've arrested in my career would take umbrage with this. And even Hitler believed he wasn't evil and he was actually doing a good thing.

 

God made us in such a way that sex is an enjoyable and pleasing activity. Why would exploring this aspect of our humanity be immoral?

[socolais 696]

Organized religion sometimes gets some bad light because it is represented by imperfect people. I think sometimes in many of the popular religious practices, people limit their enjoyment of sex much the way some abstain from pleasures durring Lent - they feel a strength by refusing to submit to hedonistic urges. Somehow this mindset gets placed as an example for others to follow. I think peer pressure forces some folks into this behavior pattern against their preferences.

 

It takes a lot of selfconfidence to throw off those shackles and decide to enjoy the pleasures of responsible non-manogamy. I don't find any conflict with my religious beliefs or sense of morality. I had to fight with those concepts and look deep inside to find answers for myself. I took a while for me to finally grant myself permission to explore the opportunities first hand. Now that I've crossed the line, I can say with confidence that I'm spiritually happy with our swinging activities.

 

My dad is a retired fundamental Baptist preacher. I was basically raised in the church and observed plenty of examples of how walking the narrow path can help prevent many of life's common problems. I also know there are other means to the same end....

[Alura 2,774]

In my opinion, when the Roman Emperor Constantine was converted to Christianity, moved from Rome to Constantinople and ordered the Bible to be compiled, the philosophy taught by the man we know as Jesus was radically changed.

 

The writings of Saul of Tarsus were included as God-inspired even though they emphasized hellfire and brimstone over peace; guilt and sin over love. Some historians believe Saul suffered from paranoia and may have had advanced syphillis.

 

Some years ago there was a single woman named Quin who posted here. She was a historian and added a lot to a discussion similar to this.

 

Saul believed God was really angry that his son had been crucified and would surely end the world, if not within the next five minutes, certainly within the next five weeks. He felt mankind should be preparing for the end and things like sex wasted time that could be spent praying for forgiveness. "It is better that a man not touch a woman."

 

Jesus loved and respected women while Saul seemed contemptuous of them. Jesus rarely mentioned sex, never homosexuality. He befriended prostitutes and is thought by some historians to have at least had a love relationship with Mary Magdeline, if not marriage. Some believe they had children.

 

If we lived solely by Jesus' teachings, there would be no need for guilt feelings about sex.

 

Personally, I don't know if there is a god and don't believe I have the power to find out. I'll go with the Great Spirit, Spider Woman, Mother Earth and Father Sky. However, I do believe that Jesus was one of the most remarkable humans who ever lived.

 

Mr. Alura

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I may have made a mistake here bringing one of the two unmentionables up (politics and religion). I definitely do not look down on anyone for their beliefs and am not trying to change anyone's beliefs. I just found the book to be very helpful in relieving most of my religious guilt and shame about sex and swinging and thought it might be helpful for others who've been in our shoes.

 

Religion is definately not forbidden here, it comes up at least once every couple of months and it's just one of those topics that when brought up it will spark a discussion of what the various participants here believe when it comes to religion. And the beliefs vary about as widely as our definitions of swinging. I know that was not your intent when you brought up the subject and mentioned the book you found, but sometimes our posts have results we didn't intend (I know mine do quite often).

[Swing*8701 887]

Susan here-- Do you really think that a universe with billions of galaxies has a god in it that cares what you do sexually ? Religious rules are nothing more than controls created by the men who wrote them. You may like the controls; even feel compelled by them. Yet, you certainly are not more or less loved because you follow them.

[socolais 696]

Susan here-- Do you really think that a universe with billions of galaxies has a god in it that cares what you do sexually ?

 

answering for myself, yes!

 

Susan here-- Yet, you certainly are not more or less loved because you follow them.

 

agreed

[ktimephoenix 156]

now there is much i would love to say in this thread, but the issue with the written word is that it is easy to take offence to it, or read it out of context.

 

Mrs Phoenix is agnostic. raised a catholic. i was raised agnostic, and am an avowed Athiest.

 

Organised religions and their moral codes aren't dictated by "God", but men who exersized their judgements based on a SELECTION of the available texts. if it were the work of god, using ALL the available texts, then we wouldn't see the huge explosion of different religions based on essentially the same book(s)(from various sects of christianity, to Judaism and Islam. all based on the same set of texts). There also wouldn't be differences (sometimes minor, sometimes glaringly contradictory) in the beliefs of these different sects.

 

We have to remember that the texts we are shown by those in charge are the texts THEY want to show us. not the whole story. the morals derived from those texts are the SUBJECTIVE opinion of those that founded the religion in question.

 

and even if you subscribe to the "my religion is the only right one" philosophy, it doesn't take a hard look at your religious doctrine of choice to find inconsistencies.

 

I am not saying this to "convert" anyone to my way of thinking, merely to say... if you have a firm understanding of your religion, and you assess that it is the right thing to do, then you are acting on as much authority as the preachers and priests.

 

my personal view? if the Old Testament shows the true nature of god, then he definately would not have been in the lifestyle. he was as jealous as they come (wiping out civilisations with fire, brimstone, and pestilance because they DARE look at another god).

[Chris&Amelia 253]

my personal view? if the Old Testament shows the true nature of god, then he definately would not have been in the lifestyle. he was as jealous as they come (wiping out civilisations with fire, brimstone, and pestilance because they DARE look at another god).

 

Amen.

 

Guess no house parties in heaven, huh? Guess it's Swinger Hell for us...

[interested-05 135]

simply put, If I were creating a religion, it would definitely have as much sex as possible between responsible consenting adults. Which makes me wonder, why any guy/gal starting a religion thousands of years ago, would have put so many limits on it.

That being said, if religion is simply a man made thing, it makes no sense.

If it is simply a manmade organization, it was merely the earliest form of a political government, designed to give the society some codified method to relate to one another, and enforce some sort of order. lets face it, the average person especially when we are young , is a me first self centered entity. Taking what we want, getting jealous of what others have, and treating others in a less than loving way. hence, the rules (ten commandments)were established, to teach others how to relate to others in a civilized manner.

What is true "religion"? True religion is not and cannot be hypocritical. Because it is based on " Love the Lord thy God, and Love thy neighbor even as you Love your self, against such there is no Law" (imprecise quote, but you get the point) unfortunately we as human beings fall far short of Loving everyone, at all times, regardless of our intended desire to do so.

fake religion is I love me, and i am looking out for number one at all times, while pretending to care about you. That "ATTITUDE" happens whether someone proclaims religious belief or sanctimonious atheism.

[Chicup 41]

I'll just quote an old post of mine here for anyone having guilt issues....

 

Must...stay....out...of...thread....

 

Ok I can't but I won't give it both barrels, I'll go softly.

 

Think of it this way, assuming there is a God and all that....

 

Do you really think god is that preoccupied with your vagina and what you stick in it? Do you think the creator of all creation, is getting angry that you are enjoying what apparently he/she/it gave you? Wouldn't God want you to be happy and if this makes you happy and hurts no one do you really think the omnipotent, alpha and omega is going to be put out that you put out?

 

Perhaps the greatest boon of swinging for deep thinkers is nothing physical but psychological. Being set free of jealousy and guilt gives you a whole new perspective on life.

 

Just ask yourself WHY you feel guilty. I'm going to guess and its just a guess, but its not because of religion, or anything external but because you dont' want to somehow hurt your husband. Even if he seems all for it, you have had it drilled into your head that sex is just between him and you, and now that you want more you feel guilty, like a bad wife, wrong for wanting it. You dont' want to hurt him, make him feel less adiquate, make him think you love him less, when if anything swinging can make you love him more. You have been told cheating is wrong, and perhaps even enjoying sex as much as you do is wrong, and while swinging isn't cheating, its close enough to fire those old lessons up.

 

So my advice is to talk to your husband, get him to tell you exactly how he feels about it, if he gets turned on by the thought of you with someone else, if he wants it, and if so let the guilt go behind you with the more privative jealousy over sex you conquered already.

[rickmccool 23]

I talked to God about it just this morning. He said fuck your brains out and to quit bothering him about such trivial matters.

[ktimephoenix 156]

Amen.

 

Guess no house parties in heaven, huh? Guess it's Swinger Hell for us...

 

Don't know if i believe in either so we'll just have to make the most of the here and now:lol: