Boundaries being breached between two couples and female feeling left out

[sirspeach 15]

I hope someone here can give some advice to 2 couples who have recently began a swinging adventure together.

 

Couple one: Married, both new to this.

Couple two: Engaged, he is new to swinging, she has had a few years experience.

 

Here's the deal. Both males talk frequently in person, via phone and via email. They have been friends for several years. Both females recently met each other and the respective partners. After deciding we were comfortable taking this to a level of swinging, emailing became the normal mode of communication. However, one of the females really wasn't included in the majority of emails (not cc'd). When she found out, she expressed to the other 3 that she wanted and needed to be included.

 

Rules were discussed but one female has been opposed to intimacy in the realm of kissing another's partner. OK for f/f but not m/f. She also opposes swapping - each going their own way. It took a lot for the other 3 to understand her reasoning - and really not sure if they really do.

 

One female states the other female is constantly attacking her character. The female "charged" with doing so asks for proof in emails she wrote so she can possibly either explain what was taken wrong or accept responsibility for it and apologize. No proof ever given - only continual complaining about her.

 

Here comes the biggest problem. Female finds out that other female is emailing her lover separately and there has also been private phone calls made between the two. She is told it is all innocent (by both parties). However, she is not comfortable with this and addresses all parties involved not to allow this to happen again (very angrily with later apologies). Two weeks later - it happens! The other male sees no problem with the private emails or phone calls.

 

Major blow up takes place and couple decides things need to be put on hold. Expressed to all involved.

 

Only a few weeks pass and there is the continued asking about this weekend, the next weekend etc. No plans were made, still needing some additional time.

 

"Dear John" letter comes though last night by the couple asking to get together. Basically faulting the female with all the reservations for this happening. Everything is her fault with no specifics as to what she did to cause this.

 

Here is my question....I am the one being blamed. I am also the one who has been in the swinging lifestyle on and off for 6 or so years. Never had these problems before. I am the one who has restrictions. And I am the one who has been excluded.

 

The other female states she has lost her "mind set" not being allowed to speak to my partner privately. She cannot drop her pants (her lover's words) and have sex with someone without that mind set.

 

I really, really need honest answers here with the little information I've provided. I cannot see how I am being so out of line asking that things be kept between all parties involved. I called it betrayal that they went behind my back not once but again after I brought it up to them. I call kissing too intimate for me to engage in with another man. I have no desire to separate and allow our partners to engage in emotional bonding.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if this other couple is looking for a poly relationship rather than swinging. They did tell us upfront in the beginning they want to be exclusive. That has been respected.

 

Is it acceptable to any of you out there to hold private emails and phone conversations with the opposite sex of your swinging party?

 

I have been lashed out at so bad with emails today from them - words such as: "Manipulation of (insert lover's name) words she wrote about me, and I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF HER" and "I don't want to hurt you but this is not right for her to say the things she does about me". I am totally clueless as to what I may have said (recently) or done this time around. I'm not a complete idiot, I am an educated person - I would think I would know if I did something. I have practically begged each of them to give me a specific but they won't. I'm a mess here.

 

Thanks for listening and hopefully giving me some guidance!

[VegasLee 1,486]

If you take a look around this forums you will see a few hundred posts dealing with TO MUCH DRAMA IN THE LIFESTYLE.

 

You have more then your fair share of it here.

 

Personally, we would cut off all this nonsense, move on and find people we could have some fun with in Swinging.

 

If you and your husband have rules about all email and phone calls being done only when you are both there then that is the way it has to be. If your husband is not following that rule then you and him need to talk. The other couple should not and does not have any right to say anything about the rules that you and your husband follow.

 

As soon as the She said, he said, she said nonsense started I would have been out of there.

 

Swinging is about having some fun that is within the bounds of your only real relationship. I don't see anything fun at what is going on in your post at all.

 

Someone needs to stand up and be the adult and knock off the jr. high games.

 

No more phone calls, e-mails between her, her, him, him or anyone else.

 

Get out and meet some fun people that you can get along with without turning it in to a day time talk show. You and your husband does not need this nonsense at all. If you and him can't agree then stop the swinging and go on with life. You say you have the experience in the Lifestyle yet you are talking part in this soap drama here. You know better so end it.

 

Good Luck to you.

[cocpl2007 170]

Sounds like you want to be told (reaffirmed) what you already know. This swing combination is destined for failure, and perhaps already dead. Let it go. No means No, by anyone at any time. Those that can not accept that, really are a disaster waiting to happen in the swinging community. It appears that the disaster has been around for a while, it is now just the time to call it for what it is D E A D!

 

You are experienced, but your desire to please others is getting in the way of your judgement and emotions in this combination of players.

 

Good Luck.

[tribbles 490]

Quote

Is it acceptable to any of you out there to hold private emails and phone conversations with the opposite sex of your swinging party?

 

We don't have exclusive playmates but we often do find only one of us talking or emailing with some playmates....but the emails are always there for the other partner to read and phone convos are discussed. If they are leaving you out and do not want you to see or know what they are talking about....run away...why would you even want to consider that something you want? Why would your partner?

 

It sounds like they are still at a stage of taking things wrong and finding themselves where all the society norm stuff is confusing them and causing emotional drama. The other female is looking for her normal mind set that she has sex with....you know, the kind you do when you want a relationship! I do suspect she may be wanting poly and not casual sex. Any way you look at it, the drama stuff would mean to me...STOP!

[sirspeach 15]

 

As soon as the She said, he said, she said nonsense started I would have been out of there.

 

Someone needs to stand up and be the adult and knock off the jr. high games.

 

No more phone calls, e-mails between her, her, him, him or anyone else.

 

You say you have the experience in the Lifestyle yet you are talking part in this soap drama here. You know better so end it.

 

Good Luck to you.

 

Thanks VegasLee - I quoted the parts that are so true and I know them to be! It has ended. However, I have been left feeling very hurt since all they can say to me is I screwed everything up. That's hard for me. I let my emotions and caring nature take over by not letting me see what I really needed to do some time ago! I also wanted reassurace that I was not so far out of line.

 

Thanks again

[sirspeach 15]

cocpl2007 said:

Sounds like you want to be told (reaffirmed) what you already know.

 

You are experienced, but your desire to please others is getting in the way of your judgement and emotions in this combination of players.

 

So very true. Thanks cocpl!

[sirspeach 15]

We don't have exclusive playmates but we often do find only one of us talking or emailing with some playmates....but the emails are always there for the other partner to read and phone convos are discussed.

 

It sounds like they are still at a stage of taking things wrong and finding themselves where all the society norm stuff is confusing them and causing emotional drama. The other female is looking for her normal mind set that she has sex with....you know, the kind you do when you want a relationship! I do suspect she may be wanting poly and not casual sex. Any way you look at it, the drama stuff would mean to me...STOP!

 

I can agree to speaking to people in email and sharing them with your partner. In this case, the emails were sent to him at work. Several of them he sent to me at home but he admits he didn't think to send each and every one of them.

 

I understand all about confusion - BTDT and obviously doing it again!

This is all new to them and with any new swingers, there is a lot to learn. I'm not sure what they want as I'm not sure they really know themselves. But yes, too much drama - way too much, I can't handle that at all. It is over but now we have the friendship of the 2 males which I cannot expect them to end.

 

I needed resolution and the knowledge that I'm not the crazy one!

 

Thanks for your input Tribbles

[slevin 1,374]

We haven't been doing this too long, but my wife and I are cool with one of us emailing/chatting with one member of another couple. The reason that we're ok with that is we both talk to each other openly about what is discussed and we both trust each other that if there is anything important in the conversations that we'll share it with each other. I definitely don't relay my whole conversations, but I chat with her about whatever flirting we did, if we made any tentative plans (for all 4 of us, we dont play separately). It can be a lot of fun to chat one on one and I do that with both the other guy and the other girl. It isn't for everyone, but it works for us because of that open and honest communication.

 

It also depends on the other couple too though, there have been couples where I just don't feel comfortable with one or both of them to chat with one of them and not the other; this is mostly due to feeling like doing that would cause issues for them. Not fun for me so we tend to not swing with them since this is supposed to be totally fun for us ... no compromises.

 

In your case I would be upset that your fiance is not in your corner and sticking up for you, respecting your views and doing this as a team with you. I think the two of you need to take some time away from this other couple and work on that communication and get to the bottom of why he's not in your corner.

[good times 991]

I agree with the others for the most part, from what you have said it sounds to me like you are not compatible with this couple and it is time to move on.

 

That being said, I can also see, just from the impression I get from your post, that maybe, despite your previous swinging experience, you just aren't ready for swinging right now. The reason I say this, is that the undercurrent of everything you said here, no emails unless cced to all, no kissing, no phone calls, all lead me to believe that you have trust issues of your own. I have to admit, if we met you and got the same impression of you as I have from reading your post, we would view you as drama waiting to happen, and avoid you like you had the plague.

 

I hope you are not offended by this, keep in mind this is only my opinion based on what you posted above. Without knowing you and having all sides of the story, their is no way for me to really know what happened. But by the way your post struck me, it seems possible to me that you may not be blameless in this situation. Normally, I wouldn't have said anything, but it strikes me that if you continue to pursue play partners without a bit of self analysis first, assuming my first impression here is correct, that you may find yourself repeating this scenario again in the future.

[two42lovers 273]

Female finds out that other female is emailing her lover seperately and there has also been private phone calls made between the two. She is told it is all innocent (by both parties). However, she is not comfortable with this and addresses all parties involved not to allow this to happen again (very angerly with later apologies). Two weeks later - it happens! The other male sees no problem with the private emails or phone calls.

 

Sounds an awful lot like high school. Not our cup of tea. Have to agree with goodtimes.

[MIbbwcpl 67]

Simply put, it sounds to me like the other b...ahem lady is crazy and looking for drama. Or, in other words, she's highly insecure. I'd back off and look elsewhere. Just gently say "I don't think this is going to work, I'd like to halt all plans of taking this to a sexual level. Clearly this isn't what we need to be doing. There is too much drama here, and I don't wish to be a part of it."

[iapr 24]

It has ended. However, I have been left feeling very hurt since all they can say to me is I screwed everything up. I also wanted reassurace that I was not so far out of line.

 

Thanks again

 

When I tell my 3 and 6 year old not to run into the street and not to run with knives and scissors and not reach up for a pot of boiling water they blame me for ruining their fun too.

 

I think that concept applies here just as much.

[twohots4u2 188]

The objective in swinging is for everyone to have fun. If that is not accomplished, or if just one of the group is uncomfortable, then it is time to move on. The key here is that the relationship between you and your husband HAS to come first, before friends, swinging or not. Your husband needs to understand that and support you 100%. Anything less is not acceptable. That is just the facts of life.

 

So, let him read this and the other postings on your question, and hope that he gets the message. Best of luck.

[SnowwwWhite 39]

Regardless of whose fault it is, get out of this situation ASAP. The other woman clearly has no respect for you and your finacee's relationship. Bad news.

 

Think about it. Would a mature, decent person do something that you have repeatedly told her makes you uncomfortable? Would an honest person continue to call and email your fiancee without your blessing? Would she try to get your fiancee to take sides against you? This woman HAS to know that her behavior is causing trouble but she seems to only care about what's convenient and desirable to herself, your relationship be damned.

 

The other possibility you need to think about is that maybe your fiancee is encouraging this behavior and is seeking the attention? Why else would it be allowed to continue? You need to figure out if this is the case, because his priority should be with YOU and no one else. If you are not his priority and he isn't looking out for you and the relationship, there is something very wrong. You should not be blamed for "ruining everyone's fun." Your fiancee should be on your side, but it sounds like he was playing on their team... and was a part of whatever it was they were cooking up.

 

It's obvious the other couple is not ready for the lifestyle and this type of drama will most certainly follow them wherever they play. It also doesn't appear that you and your fiancee are anywhere near ready to swing, either. Maybe you want to physically, but your relationship and bond need some work.

 

Get this other couple out of your life permanently and then spend some quality time focusing on your own relationship and figuring out if your fiancee is committed to it. Give things time to heal, out of the lifestyle. He is contributing to your insecurity by not keeping a reign on things. Don't reward his behavior with a free ticket to swinging. You obviously need a more secure partnership before you'll feel comfortable in the lifestyle.

 

Good luck

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

good times said:

I agree with the others for the most part, from what you have said it sounds to me like you are not compatible with this couple and it is time to move on.

 

That being said, I can also see, just from the impression I get from your post, that maybe, despite your previous swinging experience, you just aren't ready for swinging right now. The reason I say this, is that the undercurrent of everything you said here, no emails unless cc'd to all, no kissing, no phone calls, all lead me to believe that you have trust issues of your own. I have to admit, if we met you and got the same impression of you as I have from reading your post, we would view you as drama waiting to happen, and avoid you like you had the plague.

 

I hope you are not offended by this, keep in mind this is only my opinion based on what you posted above. Without knowing you and having all sides of the story, their is no way for me to really know what happened. But by the way your post struck me, it seems possible to me that you may not be blameless in this situation. Normally, I wouldn't have said anything, but it strikes me that if you continue to pursue play partners without a bit of self analysis first, assuming my first impression here is correct, that you may find yourself repeating this scenario again in the future.

 

good times has made some very good points.

 

Too many rules and you run into trouble in swinging. You've got many rules and I think they're getting in your way. Maybe it's because there are trust issues with your partner.

[Additude 457]

Why are you doing this to yourself?

 

You've obviously made a decision to stay in this relationship and respond to this banter.

 

I do not think your question should be about who is right or who is wrong about private emails and phone calls, but rather it should be "How much longer are you going to participate in this charade"?

[sirspeach 15]

slevin said:

It can be a lot of fun to chat one on one and I do that with both the other guy and the other girl. It isn't for everyone, but it works for us because of that open and honest communication.

 

I agree Slevin, one on one chatting or flirting is fine with me. Meaning at a club - two of us sitting together, at one of our homes, two of us in discussion etc. It was only when it was taken privately - emails to him at work and phone calls made during lunch hour. To me, that was going over my boundaries of what I'm comfortable with. I think everyone has limits or ideas of what they can or will accept and I feel it should be respected.

[sirspeach 15]

I agree with the others for the most part, from what you have said it sounds to me like you are not compatible with this couple and it is time to move on.

 

That being said, I can also see, just from the impression I get from your post, that maybe, despite your previous swinging experience, you just aren't ready for swinging right now. The reason I say this, is that the undercurrent of everything you said here, no emails unless cced to all, no kissing, no phone calls, all lead me to believe that you have trust issues of your own. I have to admit, if we met you and got the same impression of you as I have from reading your post, we would view you as drama waiting to happen, and avoid you like you had the plague.

 

I hope you are not offended by this, keep in mind this is only my opinion based on what you posted above. Without knowing you and having all sides of the story, their is no way for me to really know what happened. But by the way your post struck me, it seems possible to me that you may not be blameless in this situation. Normally, I wouldn't have said anything, but it strikes me that if you continue to pursue play partners without a bit of self analysis first, assuming my first impression here is correct, that you may find yourself repeating this scenario again in the future.

 

Thanks Good Times, no offense taken. We have moved on physically however, trashing emails are continuing to be sent to me/us. I'm not sure I really have trust issues as much as my intuition told me things weren't right to begin with. Was it a self fullfilled prophecy then? Who knows. It started as being relayed to me the interest in a f/f relationship and soft swing. I'm 100% ok with that. But it didn't go that way. It turned into the other woman having more interest in my partner physically and thus, the private interractions. Her husband then tells me she is not bi nor wants to be. Fine - but hey wait, isn't this why we got into this?? LOL

 

In any event, it has helped me hear others opinions. Thanks.

[sirspeach 15]

MIbbwcpl said:

Simply put, it sounds to me like the other b...ahem lady is crazy and looking for drama. Or, in other words, she's highly insecure. "

 

I tend to agree with you MIbbwcpl - emails won't stop from them with the bashing, insulting content. They have now gone as far as telling us she was pregnant with his child.

[sirspeach 15]

The objective in swinging is for everyone to have fun. If that is not accomplished, or if just one of the group is uncomfortable, then it is time to move on. The key here is that the relationship between you and your husband HAS to come first, before friends, swinging or not. Your husband needs to understand that and support you 100%. Anything less is not acceptable. That is just the facts of life.

 

So, let him read this and the other postings on your question, and hope that he gets the message. Best of luck.

 

Thanks Twohots. We had fun with a previous person several times so I know it's not beyond our reach He, my fiance, and I have discussed this whole situation many times and continue to do so....and yes, I forward him responses! He has seen, accepted and admitted where he did wrong - he was put in the middle and he stayed there too long without thinking of what it was doing or would do to me. That's a good thing - being able to accept and acknowledge allows us to learn. Thanks!

[sirspeach 15]

Regardless of whose fault it is, get out of this situation ASAP. The other woman clearly has no respect for you and your finacee's relationship. Bad news.

 

Think about it. Would a mature, decent person do something that you have repeatedly told her makes you uncomfortable? Would an honest person continue to call and email your fiancee without your blessing? Would she try to get your fiancee to take sides against you? This woman HAS to know that her behavior is causing trouble but she seems to only care about what's convenient and desirable to herself, your relationship be damned.

 

The other possibility you need to think about is that maybe your fiancee is encouraging this behavior and is seeking the attention? Why else would it be allowed to continue? You need to figure out if this is the case, because his priority should be with YOU and no one else. If you are not his priority and he isn't looking out for you and the relationship, there is something very wrong. You should not be blamed for "ruining everyone's fun." Your fiancee should be on your side, but it sounds like he was playing on their team... and was a part of whatever it was they were cooking up.

 

It's obvious the other couple is not ready for the lifestyle and this type of drama will most certainly follow them wherever they play. It also doesn't appear that you and your fiancee are anywhere near ready to swing, either. Maybe you want to physically, but your relationship and bond need some work.

 

Get this other couple out of your life permanently and then spend some quality time focusing on your own relationship and figuring out if your fiancee is committed to it. Give things time to heal, out of the lifestyle. He is contributing to your insecurity by not keeping a reign on things. Don't reward his behavior with a free ticket to swinging. You obviously need a more secure partnership before you'll feel comfortable in the lifestyle.

 

Good luck

 

Snow White - wow, wonderful reply and appreciated : )

 

We've come to many realizations. First, he and I both try to hard to appease others - keep the peace and go with the flow. I did so by allowing it to go on as far as I did even with my uncomfortable feelings, thus putting on restrictions/limits. He did so by corresponding with the other female to keep the flow with her. We each had uneasy feelings many times and discussed them when we did, but neither of us put our foot down to call it an end. Why? Probably because neither of us wanted to be responsible for breaking this off and possibly hurting the m/m friendship that was there before anything else. Very immature thinking on our part.

 

We are no longer talking with them. However their emails continue to us. I have them blocked actually. But he has a working relationship with the other male and cannot block him. I'm sorry - but I think these are truly sick people. They are pushing my fiance with advice about me. Premarital agreements and the such. They are telling him that I will limit him sexually in his world of discovery. They have told him she was pregnant with his child. Basically, it appears they are trying to wedge between us pulling him to them and pushing me out of his life! At this point we are ignoring it all and trying to go on with our life - but we don't need these annoyances!

[sirspeach 15]

LikeMinds321 said:

good times has made some very good points.

 

Too many rules and you run into trouble in swinging. You've got many rules and I think they're getting in your way. Maybe it's because there are trust issues with your partner.

 

Possibly so. Is it not normal to set limits in swinging? We were not into the "anything goes" mode so I did not think it was wrong. From my own experiences, I've met many couples who are different. Some have no limits, some have some limits and some have many limits! Point being - if a person has limits it should be respected or if you choose not to - then don't go there with them.

[sirspeach 15]

Additude said:

Why are you doing this to yourself?

 

You've obviously made a decision to stay in this relationship and respond to this banter.

 

I do not think your question should be about who is right or who is wrong about private emails and phone calls, but rather it should be "How much longer are you going to participate in this charade"?

 

No, actually we are trying to put it behind us and take it as a lesson learned and move forward. In order to learn, I like opinions from others so that my side isn't shaded only by my own thinking.

[Additude 457]

Good to hear.

 

I always appreciate a positive outcome. I'm glad you are both working together to build a relationship.

 

Based on your initial comments, I believe you were both headed down separate paths and you were being guided by hope.

 

Good Luck!