Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[mixtupcpl 169]

Hi Sif, nice to meet you We've been keeping him busy

[lustylearning 705]

"an emotional masterpiece" How wonderfully poetic!

 

Welcome!

[CallMeLoki 32]

Oh, just had a thought. Actually, I have had some "emotional vortexes" before that were very positive. One was when I asked my wife to marry me. That whole day, I had butterflies in my stomach, my palms were sweaty, and I was nervous and all wired up. She kept asking "what's wrong? Is everything OK?" (I asked her on my birthday btw...how's that for some symbolism? "What do I want for my birthday? I want you to spend the rest of your life with me." ) This was very similar. (And I still remember her dancing around my apartment at the time, and how quickly she said "yes!")

 

Actually, come to think of it, another emotional vortex was when I told her I was ready to have a child with her. And, that was on my birthday too as a matter of fact. "What I really want for my birthday is for you to give me a son or daughter." (And I still remember her skipping around the beach condo we were in ...we got right to work on making a baby too!)

 

So, those two vortex's of intense emotion were very similar to this. I've said this was a "gift" to her. I love symbolic gifts. I give people that I love symbolic gifts, and I ask for gifts that have a symbolic meaning to me. I have no doubt my wife fully understands the meaningfullness that I intended in this "gift" to her, because she loves and embraces symbolism too. We're both disgustingly sentimental when it comes down to it.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Last night was an emotional night. My wife is still "sorting out the junk" as she said above.

 

Every Monday after she had made the plans but before she went, she'd have very guilty feelings about it all. "I can't do this! I'm a wife and a mother, this is wrong! I need to cancel these plans." We'd talk about it, I'd encourage her, assure her that it's OK with me and it won't hurt us for her to do this, and tell her to think it over another day before she actually canceled. She would, she'd feel disappointed about NOT doing it, and she'd decide that she's going to stick to the plan.

 

I was VERY careful to encourage without pressuring her. I told her multiple times "You should ONLY do this if it's something you truly WANT to do. Don't do it because you think I want you to do it, don't do it because he wants you to do it...only do this if it's what YOU want to do. I'm happy with whatever decision you make."

 

Ya know, the things that are a big deal to me are openness, honesty, communication, fairness and consideration, treating each other with love and respect, treating each other like we'd like to be treated, etc. Her going to have sex with someone else with my consent and blessing is just not a big deal to me. (If it were cheating, that WOULD be a very big deal to me, but because of the deceit and trust damage, not so much the sex itself.) So really, her living out this fantasy just doesn't feel like such a huge deal.

 

Now, one thing I definitely agree with that was mentioned above...I think if we made this a regular thing, there would be risks to "us". I think having regular sexual relationships with other people would make the emotions very difficult to manage. But, this is a one time (or maybe a couple or three time) thing, so again I feel certain that all the emotions are completely manageable for both of us. It'll take a little work I'm sure, but I also think that work will build even more emotional intimacy for us.

 

Loki

[prettylady 221]

WOW! what a great story.

I have been away for awhile and it is fun to catch up.

I am so happy you and your wife a doing fine.

The first time Dog and I swung(I think thats right) I too was an emotional mess. I felt guilty, angry, dirty(not in a good way). But after we talked and made love and cuddled, you know all the best things about being a couple, I started to feel better. Every experience afterwards was positive and a WHOLE LOTA FUN!!

But like you, this is a once in awhile thing for Dog and I, and that suits us just fine.

Your friend,

Prettylady:kissface:

[CallMeLoki 32]

My wife and I talked about her experience earlier this afternoon, with some details. I'm sure there's more we'll talk about over the next few days or week. She's still working through just feeling comfortable and OK with it all (this was such a huge step for her to take...especially since she went first!) I'll leave it to her to post any details that she wants to post when she's ready. I thanked her for sharing the details with me...that makes me feel "included", ya know?

 

And some folks have mentioned a concern that we're not "doing this together" like conventional swinging. Well, we ARE doing this together, we are "collaborating" with each other...the only part I wasn't there for was the actual event itself. I want my wife to be my best friend (or one of them), and I want to be her best friend (or one of them). During planning and talking about her encounter, I've had to take off the "hubby" hat and put on the "best friend" hate many times to insure that I'm telling her what I think is best for her and that I have no selfish motivations in anything I'm telling her. I don't doubt at all that she'll do the same hat-switching with me for my turn. I think this is part of being a mature adult in a long term relationship...being able to switch hats and be unselfish when you need to.

 

Loki

[iapr 24]

And some folks have mentioned a concern that we're not "doing this together" like conventional swinging. Well, we ARE doing this together, we are "collaborating" with each other...the only part I wasn't there for was the actual event itself. Loki

 

As a "conventional swinger" as you put it, this is my main concern and one of the main issues I have had with this whole thing since it's inception. I see your point about sharing details and being part of the process but a tremedous amount of emotional energy and a high emotional cost has been incurred in this whole scenario and I am not sure I am seeing the point to it or the payoff to you as the husband or to both of you as a couple.

 

At some point Mrs Loki said that it was understood by all that this meeting was going to be "just sex." Well this has not been 'just sex' at any point in this operation. She has spent hours and hours every week with personal discussions with this man. Each of them sharing personal thoughts, feelings, interests etc. An emotional bond WAS formed whether that was the intent or not.

 

When the time came to seal the deal an entire weekend of explosive sexual and emotional energy was released between just the two of them in a far off hotel room with you sitting home with your own "emotional vortices" wondering what was going on with her.

 

As far as the emotional cost look at the heartache, anguish and uncertainty that you two have gone through leading up to this moment. Sure it may have been fun and exciting too but look at the overall emotional toll it took on each of you.

 

Upon Mrs Loki's return, her words were "emotional mess" and other such descriptions. She states crying since leaving the hotel and both of you crying upon her return. Adding all of this up I only have one question -

 

 

Why?

 

 

 

 

Why did you both put yourselves through this emotional rollercoaster? Why did you expend this huge of amount of emotional energy and why strain the emotional fabric of your marriage? I'll admit that the physical safety issue may not have been as much as a risk as some were making it out to be but it was a logical concern nontheless. Then for shits and giggles lets throw in the financial expense. Why did you two put yourselves through all of this for a one-sided encounter with a sexually inexperienced and probably socially inept 22 year old college boy. There are probably hundreds of socially isolated and sexually represed 22 year olds within an hours drive of you that you could pick up at a college library for an afternoon romp. Why all the expense and stress with this one?

 

What is the payoff to Mr Loki, Mrs Loki and to your marriage as a whole? How have each of you benifited from this experience? I'm not saying all of this to get down on you at all. I am being sincere in my questions. I really want to know. What is the benifit?

 

I kind of agree with an earlier poster a few pages back, I don't think this is over and I don't think we have seen the end of this yet. This is a facinating case study up to this point but I'd like to continue to hear about it in the days and weeks to come.

[iapr 24]

My previous post was posing a few questions and I will allow the Loki's to address that as they see fit but here is a point I would like to make and this is coming from a "conventional swinger" (kind of a contradiction of terms in and of itself dontcha think?) that believes in doing things together.

 

There was a tremendous amount of emotional energy tied up in this whole saga. There were countless hours of cyber-chat, phone calls, background checks. There was a lot of personal and emotional connections being made, a lot of sexual energy and excitement being created and built up. There were financial considerations and travel considerations. And yes there was a element of physical as well as emotional risk. There is also an element of emotional attachment and risk to the young man in question and we have not ever been able to hear his side of this story at all.

 

The issue that I have with this whole thing is that there was a huge expense of time, emotional energy, sexual energy and actual dollars and cents spent on a 22 year old nerd (I am a 40 year old nerd that never grew out of if so it's ok for me to say that) that only one of them was able to appreciate and enjoy while the other stayed home. Yes there was a certain degree of collaboration and "togetherness" that the Lokis undertook but it no where near matches or compensates for the emotional and other costs that went into this operation.

 

Lets play 'what if?' What if the amount of time and energy that went into chatting with and getting to know and bonding with a 22 year old college boy went into talking with each other?

 

What if the Lokis had taken the advice of many experienced and knowledgable veteran swingers on this board and had pursued garden variety swinging encounters together through traditional lifestyle clubs and parties together? What if they had done all of this chatting, flirting, and 'getting to know ya' time and energy together as a couple with other actual lifestylers instead of a sexually inept vanilla boy?

 

Yes they have had a fun and exciting weekend, but add up the costs and the risks and the emotional toll it has taken on each of them. Then imagine what they would have experienced if they had taken that same amount of time and energy and $ and put it into a more traditional and garden variety swinging pursuits that they could have each enjoyed and experienced together as a couple.

 

I am not trying to rain on their parade and I am not saying what they did was bad or wrong and if they are happy and it works for them I am happy for them and I honor their rights and decisions as consenting adults. But IMHO I think the risks and costs that most people will incurr in something like this will be nowhere near compensated for in the final outcome. The Lokis have put a ton of homework and energy into this and dotted a lot of i s and crossed a lot of t's but I don't think most people will approach this in such a detailed manner. I think for most people attempting something like this would be reckless and irresponsible.

[mixtupcpl 169]

For what it's worth, I totally agree with the above. My wife and I are at that point, but we have been through the "open marriage" thing which is why I felt I should advise.

 

I do think it's a big risk long term. Personally, it seems to me that "conventional swinging" (that really IS funny), offers just AWESOME reward and very reduced risk. People on the same wavelength, part of a community, etc.

 

For us, just being able to find friends to know who wouldnt view us as "dirty" or "weird" because of the shit we've done (our vanilla friends would be HORRIFIED if they knew), is totally worth it to us.

 

But for the Loki's, it seems they arent feeling that draw. Im really interested also to know why.

[PB&J 1,086]

My concern is all this crying. After a really great playtime, I coo and smile. I've never been inclined to cry. That, to me, would be a BIG clue that something was just not right.

 

This approach doesn't even seem like a "conventional" open marriage. Why work so hard at being separate in these adventures? Me and the Mr might have some separate fun at some point in the future, but it doesn't require a new 14 Points to make it happen. Loki, why go out cold-bloodedly looking for a woman to complete this from your side? I have got to say, if I was one of these women that you have been discussing, I would feel just slightly used.

 

Hey, we all enjoy sex. That's why we're here, right? But you're overthinking it tremendously. It doesn't even seem to be about enjoyment. It's like you're taking medicine to accomplish- what?

 

Obviously this is just my opinion. And the toothpaste is out of the tube. But maybe you should be thinking about the other people in this little scenario a little more.

[arvcpl 16]

Ok, friends, I am home, sore, exhausted, confused, and an emotional masterpiece, but I did not end up in a crawlspace, and I am safe and sound. More details later after I have been debriefed and submitted to hubby!!!!

 

I am sincerly glad that you are home and safe.

 

I was probably the harshest critic of this little adventure and I was also the one that started the discussions of crawlspaces and such. I concede that no physical harm came and I will also admit that millions of sexual encounters take place everyday without any harm so I am glad that your safety was never at risk.

 

However I do want to address the comments you have made about being an "emotional mess" and all the crying that occured from when you left the hotel and after you returned home. Is your emotional health, safety and wellbeing also not important? We have been swinging for 3 years and have dozens and dozens of encounters and not one has ever resulted in any emotional distress or crying and the first day it does occur we will be heading back to the drawing board in a New York minute!

 

I said it yesterday and I'll say it again, This is not over! You both have been through a lot and it is going to take more than a night of reclaiming sex and a debreifing conversation to get through all the emotional fallout that is going to occur from this.

 

I looked back through all the posts leading up to this weekend and many well respected and sharp posters like Chicup, Good Times, iapr and Fun4Ds as well as many others implored you not to do this. This kind of emotional stress and fallout is why they were against this plan. They have all seen people self destruct over this kind of thing and they know people can get the most enjoyment with the least amount of risk and emotional impact and they all tried to steer you down that path but you took the opposite route.

 

I am not saying this to be a tormentor or to rain on your parade or to say I told you so. You both came on to this board asking for sincere advice and people offered it up to you. You have taken little bits and pieces of that advice buffet-style, only taking the bits and pieces that sounded good to you.

 

There ARE going to be consequences from this weekend. Some may be negative and some may be positive. How much is positive vs negative is going to depend on how you both handle yourself and how much communication and self-exploration you do in the next few days and weeks.

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

Ok folks, here I am.

 

#1) I cried because one year ago I never thought I would be screwing anyone other than my husband and I did. It was a big step for me. I am ok now. I had to get over it, and I have.

 

#2) All the effort, time, chats, talking, blah blah is and was a good thing for my marriage. We are closer now than ever. This situation has fostered intimacy and has reborn a close relationship. I have gained a lifetime friend. I am not in love with him, nor do I want to be.

 

#3) I have to choose my sexual partners carefully. I always have. For me it takes more than a casual meeting or two and then a roll in the hay. I have to connect on an intellectual and friendship level. That is what I did. I am fine with it, and so is my husband. He encouraged this. He condoned it. He left me a wonderful note when I arrived home. He showered me in love. He reclaimed me sexually.

 

#4) Hubby and I spend a great deal of time making love, seducing each other, talking, and being in love.

 

#5) A sexual encounter was never the intent when I started talking to this young man. We talked politics, economics, and just clicked. I am fully aware of his age vs. mine, and we do not want to be "together". We turn each other on sexually, we wanted to fuck, and we did. What difference does age make? We also talked, had pillow fights, saw a movie, and laughed lots. It is a friendship. I am in love with my husband. I love my friend. There is a difference.

 

Any more questions? I will be glad to answer them.

 

Thanks!!!

[CallMeLoki 32]

OK, let me try to state this differently: my wife was living out a fantasy for the weekend. She was "being a slut for the weekend", to use her own words. I feel like we've gotten a lot of emotional intimacy with each other out of all the talking we've done over her adventure, and over discussing what our boundaries will be, etc. I'm sure we'll talk just as much about my encounter when it's on the horizon.

 

And just so you know...we are very considerate people. The young man in question understands that he was essentially a sex toy with a heartbeat, and is totally OK with that. It's not like he didn't get something out of it too. (And whatever lady I end up having an experience with get something out of it too.)

 

My wife is enjoying her friendship with this person, and I'm fine with that. There *might* be another encounter or two sometime in the future, but we really don't intend to make this a regular thing that we do bi-weekly a month or anything. I think folks may be missing that point.

 

Loki

[mixtupcpl 169]

Yikes..

 

I dont want to cause trouble and I really considered not posting, but I do think you guys sound sort of different on this.

 

If its working then I'm happy for you and just ignore us, but Sif (MrsLoki?) said "I love my friend" and talked about some really intimate moments.

 

You said that she wanted the "slut for the weekend" fantasy, that he is a walking dildo, and that its not regular.

 

I do think you guys are on different pages. Look... My wife was emotionally involved for 2 years with a guy and, while she'd never leave me, it was much more than what swingers typically do and it did create weird drama and its something we plan to never repeat.

 

What Sif is describing sounds a lot like what we came out of (a true secondary long term relationship) compared to what you are describing (a fantasy fling).

 

It seems like shades of grey, but one spouse maintaining a loving, close, long term, connected, spiritual friendship that is only "occasionally" physical is pretty much having a secondary relationship. That CAN work (we managed) but it IS tough and a bit odd and quite dangerous in ways I dont think you two realize yet and, MOST importantly, it is something both parties need to fully "get" and digest and agree to.

[CallMeLoki 32]

What is the payoff to Mr Loki, Mrs Loki and to your marriage as a whole? How have each of you benifited from this experience? I'm not saying all of this to get down on you at all. I am being sincere in my questions. I really want to know. What is the benifit?

 

The payoff is this: my wife and I have reached a depth of emotional intimacy with each other that we've never achieved before. It takes a huge amount of trust, openness, and honesty to do something like this. This is a milestone for us.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Yikes..

 

I dont want to cause trouble and I really considered not posting, but I do think you guys sound sort of different on this.

 

If its working then I'm happy for you and just ignore us, but Sif (MrsLoki?) said "I love my friend" and talked about some really intimate moments.

 

You said that she wanted the "slut for the weekend" fantasy, that he is a walking dildo, and that its not regular.

 

I do think you guys are on different pages. Look... My wife was emotionally involved for 2 years with a guy and, while she'd never leave me, it was much more than what swingers typically do and it did create weird drama and its something we plan to never repeat.

 

What Sif is describing sounds a lot like what we came out of (a true secondary long term relationship) compared to what you are describing (a fantasy fling).

 

It seems like shades of grey, but one spouse maintaining a loving, close, long term, connected, spiritual friendship that is only "occasionally" physical is pretty much having a secondary relationship. That CAN work (we managed) but it IS tough and a bit odd and quite dangerous in ways I dont think you two realize yet and, MOST importantly, it is something both parties need to fully "get" and digest and agree to.

 

Ya know, I realize this isn't a typical swinging situation. I have no concerns over my wife's friendship with this person...the friendship is good for her, and I'm fine with it. They had sex...it was intended to be a one time thing, and I'm fine with that. He may come down here at some point to have a threesome with us...I'd enjoy that. My wife might decide she wants to go do it again...I'm fine with that. I get to do the same things with my wife's blessing. I have close female friends that I have strong connections with...my wife is fine with that. One of them I'd love to lay. My wife is fine with that and has given me her permission.

 

We are not garden-variety swingers because we don't feel like it fits us well. If we had gone to a swinger party and banged it out with another couple, my wife would have come home crying also...probably moreso than from this experience. She was crying because she felt some shame and guilt...she's never done this before. But she's fine now...we're both fine. Actually, all three of us are fine. We all clearly communicated and understood the deal. Everything is good. She still has the friendship with her friend, and he might very well be a lifelong friend, and that's fine with me.

 

Loki

[mixtupcpl 169]

Well as long as its ok with you, thats good Im not trying to fuck with you guys, I just want to give you food for thought. But the kind of thing that makes me nervous with this is, flash forward maybe 8 years from now.

 

Now your wife is a still smoking hot upper 40s and the "young kid" is actually 30 and has had an 8 year relationship with her that has been physical and emotional for nearly a decade.

 

There is a 50/50 chance that he will be harboring some serious affection for her. He'll say "oh no! just physical and our awesome friendship!" NOW, but he may very well be clueless.

 

You just have to be ready for the possibility that once he is an established man (and not a Mrs. Robinson fantasy kid), he may actually try to take her away. As long as you are ok with that chance, then you're ok. It did happen to me and, well, I'm still married, so its possible but it certainly isnt an experience I'd want to deliberately repeat if you see what Im saying (and in retrospect, us just realizing what we really are - swingers - and doing it that way 5 years ago would have been WAY better for both of us)

[fun4Ds 1,098]

I looked back through all the posts leading up to this weekend and many well respected and sharp posters like Chicup, Good Times, iapr and Fun4Ds as well as many others implored you not to do this. This kind of emotional stress and fallout is why they were against this plan. They have all seen people self destruct over this kind of thing and they know people can get the most enjoyment with the least amount of risk and emotional impact and they all tried to steer you down that path but you took the opposite route.

I know for me, I looked at this with doubt. I think mostly because of possible drama at best or a horrible out come at worst. I think talking with my wife Mrs.fun over this she explained something. Loki and Sif were going into this with out past drama, leaving the past in the past for the beginning of a new day. On one hand, we can perhaps never play alone. On the other hand we were courious to learn something from them.

 

We Have

 

 

 

I am not saying this to be a tormentor or to rain on your parade or to say I told you so. You both came on to this board asking for sincere advice and people offered it up to you. You have taken little bits and pieces of that advice buffet-style, only taking the bits and pieces that sounded good to you.

 

I have to say, we could never play alone. If we do ever choose to. It would be Loki and Sif we would ask for help with issues we may incounter. Especially emotional ones ! Not people that could speculate all the bad things that could happen. We are grown ups we know what the possibilities are. Personally, I would have been clawing at the freakin walls over the weekend. Loki handeled things pretty well I would think. Sif has maybe some issues to sort out now that seem rather well handled also. Things I dont understand, but Mrs.fun helps me understand from a womans point of view.

 

There ARE going to be consequences from this weekend.

 

We all deal with issues from fucking other people. It is what takes our relationship to a new and better level. Even the consequences. Nothing like having a good partner like they are to each other, to work out a bad date.... We have had a few of thoes. We dont see all this through rose colored glasses. We talk, and it looks like Loki and Sif do a pretty good job of it so far.

 

 

Some may be negative and some may be positive. How much is positive vs negative is going to depend on how you both handle yourself and how much communication and self-exploration you do in the next few days and weeks.

I think they will do fine. This new friend will just be a friend. I don't think everything needs to be gone over and over and over and over...... I think its lokis turn. If I'm seing this correctly

 

My only question to Sif is,

 

Do you feel Loki should play alone as well, or do you feel you want to be there and be part of it ?

[CallMeLoki 32]

Well as long as its ok with you, thats good Im not trying to fuck with you guys, I just want to give you food for thought. But the kind of thing that makes me nervous with this is, flash forward maybe 8 years from now.

 

Now your wife is a still smoking hot upper 40s and the "young kid" is actually 30 and has had an 8 year relationship with her that has been physical and emotional for nearly a decade.

 

There is a 50/50 chance that he will be harboring some serious affection for her. He'll say "oh no! just physical and our awesome friendship!" NOW, but he may very well be clueless.

 

You just have to be ready for the possibility that once he is an established man (and not a Mrs. Robinson fantasy kid), he may actually try to take her away. As long as you are ok with that chance, then you're ok. It did happen to me and, well, I'm still married, so its possible but it certainly isnt an experience I'd want to deliberately repeat if you see what Im saying (and in retrospect, us just realizing what we really are - swingers - and doing it that way 5 years ago would have been WAY better for both of us)

 

Again, we don't have the intention of making this an ongoing thing. Once, maybe two or three times, we don't know yet. We are both still absorbing this and learning about ourselves and each other.

 

The only person I have to trust here is my wife. That's it. If her friend tries to steal her away, he simply won't succeed. (Who's to say men she hasn't had sex with won't try to steal her away? I'm glad that she's an attractive and desirable woman. I don't have to beat the men off with a stick...she does this herself.) This woman is my soul-mate, and I'm her soul-mate. We've worked through tough things in our marriage, and we're still together because we love, adore, respect, and are just completely devoted to each other. She would not have even considered doing this if I hadn't encouraged her and told her "If this is something you want to do, then do it. Go live out this fantasy, enjoy it to the max, and then come back and share it with me." And that's exactly what she did. And if she decides that she wants to do it again, she can. I know you are just trying to caution us, but I'm just not worried. And my wife is going to have to trust me just as much on my turn...and I know that she will, I'm not worried about that either.

 

Loki

[mixtupcpl 169]

Thats awesome Loki. To be honest, my caution was really more for her.

 

OK, I'm shutting up now because this horse is nearly dead.

 

I feel kind of close to you guys b/c our situation was so very similar. If you ever want to reach out and talk just PM (either of you).

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

I said it yesterday and I'll say it again, This is not over! You both have been through a lot and it is going to take more than a night of reclaiming sex and a debreifing conversation to get through all the emotional fallout that is going to occur from this.

 

Absolutely agree!

 

My wife and I have been reading this thread, and we both feel that your wife getting home safely is a misnomer. She isn't home yet, not by a long shot. She's physically home, but this is just the beginning of a very long road.

 

The choices you've made are ones that multiple people here told you (Loki) are major red flag raising issues. That's not to say you should lock-step with us, nod politely and agree. If you did, you would be doing what society demands swingers do (and stop swinging). Your rules have to work for you. But, the general rules out there usually have grains of truth in them. It's important to understand what those grains of truth are. and see how they apply to you.

 

That's just the two of you. My wife and I are also wondering what the impact is on this kid. He's got nobody to turn to for discussing this. He can't really discuss it with either of you. I feel for him. I really do.

 

In this thread, and during the weekend, you noted reactions and thoughts you didn't expect to have. That's to be expected, regardless of what experiences you have. Any new experiences will have unintended outcomes. That will continue to happen with this situation. Count on it. As a recommendation, I strongly advise you not have another experience with this kid at least for a few months, if not longer. There's a lot of things to work through here. A lot.

 

Also, lying to your daughter? That'd be right out for us. We do not lie to our children. We might omit, withhold information or choose not to discuss things at all, but we don't lie to our children, except little white lies for surprises, presents and the like. It's the same rule we give each other and we wouldn't have it any other way. In your situation, the way we would have handled it is to tell the daughter "Mommy's going away for the weekend. She'll be back Sunday evening. We know you're curious, but it's not important for you to understand further." These answers of course can change depending on the age of the child.

 

My wife and I were also alarmed that you had serious relationship issues as recently as six months ago. My wife said "Even if I were to try this, there'd be no way I'd try it with such issues so recently in the past. I'd wait at least a year and a half, maybe two, just to see if things stabilized and our means of handling the past issues are working" There's truth in those words. If it were just the two of you, I'd have less reservations. But, there's a child in the mix, a potential innocent victim. You are making choices that can have a dramatic impact on your daughter. You have a responsibility to her that far outweighs giving a gift to your wife. You owe it to your daughter to be exceptionally careful.

 

Well, that's enough preaching for one day I certainly don't mean to rain on your parade either. It's all intended for the good, and I hope it's taken that way. We, my wife and I both, wish the best for you and hope it all works out ok.

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

And some folks have mentioned a concern that we're not "doing this together" like conventional swinging. Well, we ARE doing this together, we are "collaborating" with each other...the only part I wasn't there for was the actual event itself. I want my wife to be my best friend (or one of them), and I want to be her best friend (or one of them). During planning and talking about her encounter, I've had to take off the "hubby" hat and put on the "best friend" hate many times to insure that I'm telling her what I think is best for her and that I have no selfish motivations in anything I'm telling her. I don't doubt at all that she'll do the same hat-switching with me for my turn. I think this is part of being a mature adult in a long term relationship...being able to switch hats and be unselfish when you need to.

Loki

 

I never have and would never consider removing my "husband hat" just so I can be my wife's best friend. They aren't mutually exclusive. If they start to be so, there's a huge problem. A great big whopping neon sign saying "PROBLEM HERE!"

 

If you can't be unselfish without removing the "husband hat" there's a problem. My "husband hat" and "best friend hat" are both enhanced by my wife having fun with another man, and if both sides of me aren't in with it than I'm not in with it. Relationships have multiple facets. They should never be exclusionary to each other.

 

I don't think you can love someone fully by repressing some feelings at one moment and other feelings at other moments. Be whole, complete, and love fully.

[iapr 24]

 

We are not garden-variety swingers because we don't feel like it fits us well. If we had gone to a swinger party and banged it out with another couple, my wife would have come home crying also...probably moreso than from this experience.

Loki

 

How do you know, you haven't tried it.

[fun4Ds 1,098]

How do you know, you haven't tried it.

 

I have to agree on this one. As a couple, we aim to please

[iapr 24]

#2) All the effort, time, chats, talking, blah blah is and was a good thing for my marriage. We are closer now than ever. This situation has fostered intimacy and has reborn a close relationship. I have gained a lifetime friend. I am not in love with him, nor do I want to be.

 

This could very likely have also occured if you two had checked out some clubs and interacted with established lifestyle couples as well and probably even more since you would have been meeting people and interacting with them together as a couple.

 

 

#3) I have to choose my sexual partners carefully. I always have. For me it takes more than a casual meeting or two and then a roll in the hay. I have to connect on an intellectual and friendship level. That is what I did. [/Quote]

 

News flash here - every single other woman in the lifestyle says the same thing with complete sincerity. All women in the lifestyle that attend clubs, partys, meet and greets etc all say the same thing. You are not unique in that respect. Every woman needs to connect and needs to feel comfortable and attracted. Why do you think that that cannot occur at a club or some other traditional lifestyle venue? Why do you two have it so ingrained in your heads that a lifestyle club is a place you walk into, get naked and fuck the first person you bump into? You haven't even been to one and you have crossed it off of the possibility list.

 

If you need to connect on an intellectual level that is fine, connect on an intellectual level then, people in the lifestyle are not dumb. If you need to interact with people for a length of time and on an ongoing basis for you to feel comfortable that is fine too. We have known and gone out with some couples for well over a year before there was any physical contact at all. That is the great beauty about the lifestyle, every individual can set their own price tag on their own sexuality.

 

 

My point in all of this is there is a whole world of adventure within the lifestyle and each individual in fully in charge of their own sexuality and can pursue their own interests in their own manner.

 

I don't think what you did is wrong or that anyone made any mistakes. My point is that if you two had explored the lifestyle together as a couple and gone out into the real world together as a couple and interacted with flesh and blood people together as a couple you would have had all the benifits you are describing and probably a whole lot more if you had done it together. And you would have had a whole lot less emotional turmoil and a lot less emotional cost and anguish.

 

In other words you would have gotten a whole lot more payoff for a whole lot less cost and whole lot less risk. People have been trying to tell you this all along but you haven't been heading their advice.

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

Wholeheartedly agree with iapr.

 

Also, one of the major red flags that shot up for my wife and I is this kid did not want to have your husband present.

 

There are people within the lifestyle that are comfortable with swapping in separate rooms, but to my knowledge (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the vast majority of them are comfortable with same room swapping too. This kid isn't comfortable with that, and that says to us that he's wanting more emotionally, and is quite insecure in himself. I.e., he's not mature enough to handle a swinging relationship. That sets the stage for potential drama and also damage to both the kid and to yourself.

 

One of your desires in spending a weekend with this kid was to 'train' him. Well, sex is something you certainly can become better at through training. More important is the mental and emotional components of a person. This kid may have been weakened by this experience in that regard.

 

From what I've seen, everything you've hoped to achieve through a weekend away with this kid could have just as readily been achieved by 'traditional' swinging. Just our opinion. No, we're not trying to harsh on you. We really aren't. We want you to be happy, whole and fulfilled. That's why we're saying this. Do yourself a favor, and give traditional swinging a try. You might be surprised at the results.

[lovefest04 700]

I want to first congratulate Sif and Loki for stepping outside of their comfort zones and into the unknown.

 

Yes, they are both clearly intelligent and have given the matter a great deal of thought (much more than we did when we got started) and I have to say a little bit more thought may have kept us out of a few sticky situations.

 

I am, however, a bit surprised by the final few threads here. So what if it took a lot of time and emotional brainpower, so what if it took a bunch of money and a weekend away. How they chose to pursue their fantasy is completely up to them.

 

I feel the genuine concern and love that most all of the posts have. In some ways I feel that the harshest critics are at some level trying to "save" Sif and Loki from making the same mistakes others before them have made. However, many of us have children and we know that isn't always possible or even the best. Generally, we need to make our own mistakes. The good news is that sometimes there is no mistake, even if we old folks are sure of it.

 

Sif, I hope you enjoyed every minute of your adventure. I also know that over time you two will find a great deal of joy, eroticism and fun in talking and reliving your encounter(s), together as husband and wife.

 

Have fun in all your future encounters, you seem like really great people. From what I've read here, I'd love to spend time sipping a fine wine and just getting to know you both, non-sexually even.

 

Finally, don't get any wild ideas of bungie jumping for your next anniversary, that shit scares me to death and its very dangerous. I hear people have gotten hurt.

 

S

[fun4Ds 1,098]

I want to first congratulate Sif and Loki for stepping outside of their comfort zones and into the unknown.

 

Yes, they are both clearly intelligent and have given the matter a great deal of thought (much more than we did when we got started) and I have to say a little bit more thought may have kept us out of a few sticky situations.

 

I am, however, a bit surprised by the final few threads here. So what if it took a lot of time and emotional brainpower, so what if it took a bunch of money and a weekend away. How they chose to pursue their fantasy is completely up to them.

 

I feel the genuine concern and love that most all of the posts have. In some ways I feel that the harshest critics are at some level trying to "save" Sif and Loki from making the same mistakes others before them have made. However, many of us have children and we know that isn't always possible or even the best. Generally, we need to make our own mistakes. The good news is that sometimes there is no mistake, even if we old folks are sure of it.

 

Sif, I hope you enjoyed every minute of your adventure. I also know that over time you two will find a great deal of joy, eroticism and fun in talking and reliving your encounter(s), together as husband and wife.

 

Have fun in all your future encounters, you seem like really great people. From what I've read here, I'd love to spend time sipping a fine wine and just getting to know you both, non-sexually even.

 

Finally, don't get any wild ideas of bungie jumping for your next anniversary, that shit scares me to death and its very dangerous. I hear people have gotten hurt.

 

S

 

We agree as well

 

Loki, you rock man You will always do well, there are allot of women who will find you charming...

 

Sif, your amazing by your own rights ... Simply amazing...

 

Swingers at heart Lovers in arms...

[hughb 45]

Hi all - first time poster, long time lurker. This has been a fascinating thread and my wife and I have thoroughly enjoyed all perspectives.

 

It does seem like a risky way of jumping into this swinging scene but your discussions, "contracts", and research probably removed the majority of the risks. I do imagine there will be some "drama" from the "dildo with a pulse." Putting myself in his shoes, I can't imagine not having SOME attachment to the cougar attack.

 

But...he'll get over it. As long as he doesn't have your home phone number or know where you live it shouldn't be too big a deal. Besides he got what he wanted. Someday he'll realize how lucky he was.

 

Anyhow, happy it all worked out and you did not become crawlspace stuffing.

 

hughb

[mixtupcpl 169]

Hi Hugh! Welcome. What's the status with you and the better half? Cautiously exploring, just curious, or in LS?

 

Loki, I'm thread jacking you b/c you're not posting :P

[CallMeLoki 32]

Well, thanks for the well-wishing folks. Yeah, the young dude may be feeling some emotional attachment, or he may not. He knew the deal going into this. If he is, you are exactly correct...he'll get over it. He'll end up with a job and a girl-friend, he'll get married, have kids, and I hope he'll maintain a friendship with my wife. But, I really don't think he'll be stalking her 10 years from now and trying to steal her away.

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

Well, thanks for the well-wishing folks. Yeah, the young dude may be feeling some emotional attachment, or he may not. He knew the deal going into this. If he is, you are exactly correct...he'll get over it. He'll end up with a job and a girl-friend, he'll get married, have kids, and I hope he'll maintain a friendship with my wife. But, I really don't think he'll be stalking her 10 years from now and trying to steal her away.

 

Loki

 

I hope it all works out wonderfully. I really do. It isn't any of our business how you and your wife conduct your marriage. If we've offended, I think I can speak for all of us that we're just trying to help, and no offense was intended.

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

I like you. And if I am ever in Northern Cali we shall sip wine. We made our choices, did not plan to ever do this, it just evolved. It is done and over, and other than some emotional turmoil because I was never a "casual sex" kind of girl, I am fine, hubby is fine, and I will not be swinging anytime soon, no offense. We all have to make our own choices and live with those choices, and we are fine. Love, Hugs, Kisses.....

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

Thank you, and love you. I love people who can think outside thier own box and embrace what others do with maturity. Let's face it; sex outside marriage is just that, no matter how you go about it. The important thing here is that hubby and I discussed it, encouraged each other, and were both fully aware of the plan. That means we did it together, whether we were in the same room or not. And when his turn comes, we will both be back here, hoping the more open-minded people will support us once again.

 

You ROCK!!!

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

I have not been offended, but thanks for the thought. I take advice, make choices, and live with the consequences of those choices. I will not say that this has not been an emotionally exhausting experience for me and hubby, because it has. It would have been the same in a traditional swinging situation because we are the same people in any situation. But the beauty is the closeness and emotional bond we have strengthened is irreplaceable. As for the people who questioned this action on the heels of severe marital discord, I agree with you. I had the same issues. But I finally said, WTF, if he loves me he still will, and if doesn't we move on. Thanks for all the advice, folks. We don't have to agree, but we do need to respect each other as adults, and most people here did that. ((Thumbs Up)

[mixtupcpl 169]

Well said... Glad you guys are good. You know you can post in between situations too (you dont have to wait until Loki's turn to jump into hanging out and chatting)

 

Open marriage is not all that common even here and its good to have someone else who has experienced that variation to give opinions when the topic comes up.

 

I think I've only seen a few others here other than you guys and me and Mrs Mix. (although we've closed it)

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

You closed it? Why, if I may be so bold as to ask......

[mixtupcpl 169]

To do this instead

 

We had it going for 10 years! Lots of drama over time and lots of singles that, while they said they "got it", really didnt. I think its just the nature of it. People are interested, you say "hey, I'm married, but we keep it open, so I can have some fun but this ultimately is JUST fun" and they just hear "yes, Ill go with you"

 

Down the road it seems they always get attached. For me, a ONS is not a big deal (although I dont make it a habit), but for the Mrs, thats not satisfying for her.

 

We decided it was time to just not be embarrassed to identify as "swingers" (yes, I know this is weird) and just have fun together. When we first opened up the relationship we were both pretty clueless and using it to "repair" past history (that didnt work). We've been together since we were teens, so neither of us are going anywhere, but in that much time you inevitably have shit that has to be worked out and often gets buried. We've since really bonded more closely than ever and slayed our demons, but the relationship was already open and working so we left it (even after getting married and having a kid).

 

To be kind of blunt about it, we just recently were in bed and I brought it up sort of like "so you fuck other people, I fuck other people, it seems to cause more trouble then its worth... Maybe we should just try to be normal." Then we both agreed that there is no way in hell we can ever be remotely "normal", but that this arrangement had worn thin. I kind of jokingly said "maybe we're swingers!" And we had a good laugh because it sounded ridiculous. Then I started checking out this board and said "holy shit these people are like me and the Mrs!" and realized that this IS us. Thats about it.

 

We did lose a friend closing it, possibly. It was already platonic with him at this stage, but he got weirded out by a bunch of different things that came up.

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

Loki would rather me be involved, but I am going to send him off to play alone. I am sure this will start another firestorm, but it is only fair to him, and I am fine with it. He deserves it. Look what he did for me.

[2inSanDiego4u 181]

He deserves it. Look what he did for me.

 

Been reading this entire thread with much interest. What he wants and what YOU think he deserves are entirely different. Why not give him what he says he wants? Maybe you'll find that this works better for BOTH of you in the long run.

[fun4Ds 1,098]

Loki would rather me be involved, but I am going to send him off to play alone.

 

That has me confused as well I'm a guy, I'm just saying I dont understand.

[PB&J 1,086]

Maybe Loki does know what he wants here... my husband says that half his pleasure during playtime this weekend came from watching me. Why deny Loki that pleasure?

[mixtupcpl 169]

Maybe she's not bi-curious at all? I know Mrs Mix isnt at all, so a FMF becomes a kind of a weird thing if you think about it. With MFM the guys can just not be involved with each other at all pretty easily (another great advantage women have )

 

It seems that with FMF, both ladies really need to be at least somewhat bi. I may be wrong here though, so feel free to correct me

[fun4Ds 1,098]

Maybe she's not bi-curious at all? I know Mrs Mix isnt at all, so a FMF becomes a kind of a weird thing if you think about it. With MFM the guys can just not be involved with each other at all pretty easily (another great advantage women have )

 

It seems that with FMF, both ladies really need to be at least somewhat bi. I may be wrong here though, so feel free to correct me

 

Ill correct you then, Mrs fun is bisexual and has a close bisexual friend we have played with a number of times. We can testify that there need not be bisexual activity though. I know, we also have a single female friend that is as straight as an arrow..... Its all about me It does work both ways.

[mixtupcpl 169]

I guess... It may also be a general lack of interest in 3 somes altogether. I think the Loki's are similar to the Mix's in some ways. Neither Mrs Mix nor I really have much interest in either MFM or FMF.

 

I would like to ask more about the dynamic of 2 women who don't want to be intimate with each other taking care of one guy, but it may get graphic! LOL Maybe Ill have to find somewhere to watch that

[OnHArry 23]

Like the mix's we have done the open marriage thing and have pretty much stopped. Basically the other guy, became a pain in the ass, and also started treating the wife like a doormat, which doubtless explains why he had row or three previous wives and a number of failed relationships.

 

I am glad it worked out good for you, and the only thing I would suggest you do differently should you do something else, is that hubby meets the guy first, in person, does not have to be a threesome but it does help reassure him, and it also reinforces to the other guy that you are married and a couple and he is the other guy.

 

The other guy in our life could not function if I was in the same house, let alone do a threesome, which we have also done.

 

Good for you guys and enjoy whatever it is that floats your boat. I find it odd that some if us swingers who already fly under the radar would be so adamant that you should follow their rules. Having said that however you really should try so called conventional swinging as well, it can be real fun. Would love to share a bottle or two with you guys anytime.

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

Been reading this entire thread with much interest. What he wants and what YOU think he deserves are entirely different. Why not give him what he says he wants? Maybe you'll find that this works better for BOTH of you in the long run.

 

That has me confused as well I'm a guy, I'm just saying I dont understand.

 

Maybe Loki does know what he wants here... my husband says that half his pleasure during playtime this weekend came from watching me. Why deny Loki that pleasure?

 

Ok. The only threesome I would participate in is one with a more casual choice than BD is making. He is choosing to pursue one of our best friends, someone we share life with, the kids play, etc. I am not comfortable playing with this friend. If she is his choice, I back him 100%. I would rather it not be his choice, but now it is his turn, and I am going to support him. Now, if it was the hot waitress at the italian joint, or a less than close friend, I could play above the waist and give him his threesome. But it aint gonna happen with his choice, and I am not one who is bi or bi-curious. He sent me away for three days with someone I adore. The least I can do is return the favor...Hell, we are breaking out of the monogamous mold..What else do ya want?

[fun4Ds 1,098]

What else do ya want?

 

Oh I dont know, being there with them might be fun. I like MFM playing as much as Mrs.fun does Unless you just need a camera guy. I would like that also

 

Enjoy

[birdnhand123 15]

Chicup is right. The MFM's are easy to score since there are so many horn dogs out there who are willing to slip in. Most of our playtime has been couples only but we've had 1 on 1's with each others consent, call it a PLAY date.

 

Make sure you understand the elusive FMF may never come your way and are alright with this reality before you proceed. If you two are ok with each other hooking up, I would suggest 1 on 1's, then no one gets burned, there are definitely hornettes out there that want NSA sex buddies and couples that are willing to allow single play. At least when your MFM works out and FMF doesn't, you won't feel as left out.

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

Oh I dont know, being there with them might be fun. I like MFM playing as much as Mrs.fun does Unless you just need a camera guy. I would like that also

 

Enjoy

 

Well, guess what? He is coming to visit and we are going to a concert! Playtime! This time, hubby gets to join in after some hot foreplay....alone....to be continued! I love this life!