Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[CallMeLoki 32]

Ah...I've missed some posts!

 

Yes, the dude is coming to visit. Sif wants some more alone time, and would like to have that MFM threesome. I'm definitely game.

 

And yes, I've chosen my best female friend for my first go. Sif wasn't comfortable with that choice at first, but she's stretched for me and that's very cool. We've all been friends for many years, and know each other well.

 

Anyway, Sif laid a little groundwork for me by telling her a couple times "you should just do my hubby". Then, I told her one night as I was taking her home from a meeting we'd been at that I wanted to have a really candid conversation with her. I asked her whether she'd rather talk face to face, or rather me write her a letter or something. (She's got a shy streak.) She thought for a bit, and said "Write me a letter".

 

So, I did. Part of it was quite erotic and steamy as I described that I wanted to take her away for a weekend and why. Then more the "caring" stuff I tend to write, letting her know that our friendship is much more important to me than whether she decides yes or no to a "fantasy weekend" with me. I sent her the letter Monday afternoon, and she responded this morning (Wed). She's still thinking about it (there's an additional complication I won't mention lest I get slain), but her answer sure sounded like "maybe". I think she needs to talk face to face with both me alone and my wife alone. I actually think that if we talk about it enough, she'll get more comfortable with the idea, and might very well end up saying "what the hell, let's go". And if she doesn't, that's fine too. I really do value my friendship with her more than a good weekend romp. I know that as long as I don't pressure her, asking isn't going to hurt us. If we actually go off and do it, that won't hurt us either. She's very emotionally mature, in my opinion. So, I'm really comfortable that she's a good choice. She's a great person on the inside, and a total hottie on the outside.

 

She grew up Catholic and has always been a bit shy and reserved about sex. She actually calls herself a "prude". Her and I have been close friends for quite a long time, we trust each other, we're very comfortable being alone with each other, don't think twice about hugging each other or kissing each other (sometimes on the lips, although it's not sexual, more of a quick peck that's a simple show of affection), etc. Part of it feels like a challenge to me...I think I could turn this "prude" into a "dirty little slut" for a weekend. (No offense at all intended by my word choices, ladies!) I damn sure want to try! I actually had no idea how she'd respond to my letter...in my assessment, it could have been anything from "Have you lost your mind?" to "What the hell took you so long?"

 

Anyway, I think I have a "maybe". That's good..."maybe" usually seems to become "yes" for me. So, you guys wish me some luck here on this one!

 

Loki

[sexcupid 809]

She's still thinking about it (there's an additional complication I won't mention lest I get slain), but her answer sure sounded like "maybe".

 

Too late dear...you already dimed yourself out earlier in this thread when you mentioned that she is married. Since you state there is an additional complication, I would assume that she is mulling over not making her husband aware of the situation?

 

Dude...c'mon. Unless you are considering a full swap with her hubby...find someone who isn't attached.

[fun4Ds 1,098]

I was just thinking the same thing

 

You have been straight up so far, is it true ?

[CallMeLoki 32]

You have been straight up so far, is it true ?

 

Oh yeah, I'm definitely a straight up kinda person. And yes, she's married...but it's not exactly good for her. We all know that and so does she.

 

I don't feel a bit of guilt about asking her...her hubby has asked my wife to sleep with him (she said "no"). He's made some very selfish choices where she's concerned (like engaging in some play on a trip once, without inviting her, without asking her...she heard him in the other room and busted him). There's very little doubt in my mind that if he had an offer like this, he'd be all over it and never tell her. She, however, actually has a conscience, and I'd imagine one of her pondering points is "do I tell him or not?"

 

We haven't talked about this yet, but essentially she has 3 choices: 1) don't tell him (what he'd choose without a second thought, but this would create guilt for her though), 2) tell him what she's gonna do, but not with whom (I'd say her most likely choice...hard for her though, she's not that brave...however, this might give him a swift kick in the ass and cause him to make some much needed changes!), or 3) tell him what she's gonna do and with whom (I doubt she'd choose this, she'd want to protect me and my wife I think...if she does, I'm not at all afraid to go ask his "permission"...I actually don't see how he could say "no" to me.)

 

I know I'm going to get chewed up and spit out for this, but then you folks don't actually know us or them, so don't judge too harshly. Here's how I see it: He asked my wife without telling me, that gives me implicit permission to ask his wife without telling him. Sounds fair to me. What she decides in terms of telling him or not telling him is her decision, not mine (although she will need to tell me so I'll know what to expect). It's her marriage and her responsibility to manage. It's my responsibility to manage my marriage. If she decides "no", I won't try to persuade her. If she decides "yes", I'll take it and I'll go with however she thinks is best to handle her hubby. I don't think I'd make this choice with anyone else, but this is a special situation in my mind.

 

 

And I know what's coming..."you'll get drama". No, not from her. She's a level-headed woman, and we won't get any kind of drama from her. She loves me as a friend, she loves my wife, my wife loves her, my wife loves me, I love my wife...none of us would want to damage our friendship, so that keeps anything from getting out of hand. (In fact, one of the things she expressed concern over in her first response was that it might impact my wife and I...she respects our relationship.) She is a good choice in this sense because I know that she just won't create any drama.

 

Loki

[slevin 1,374]

Well, here is my take on the whole married thing:

 

It might not be good for her and he might be a dick, but they are married. If she doesn't want to be married anymore then she needs to do something about it. Just because some guy propositioned my wife doesn't mean that I'm now going to feel good about sinking to his level and propositioning his wife to fuck me behind his back. I don't like it when someone does that with Katrina and I and I certainly won't do it to anyone else, regardless of their situation.

 

If the guy is a dick I just won't associate with him. What it comes down to is that their marriage has issues, which comes with drama and I don't want to be involved in (or cause) any drama. There are so many other people out there that it's just not worth it to me. You can discount the whole drama thing, but really you're just stuffing your head in the sand. I've had drama come out from the most level headed and logical people. The ones who you'd never think caused drama.

 

This is all side from my main point though; I want people to respect my marriage and I am going to respect theirs, even if they don't. Anyone who doesn't respect my marriage gets cut out of my life. I won't even consider playing with one half of a couple unless I know that they both are aware of it, both approve of it and are both interested in it.

 

To be honest I think you have your blinders on due to being so close to the situation. You can discount the fact that no one here knows you or them, but sometimes not fully knowing lets people have a clearer view of the situation than being heads down involved in it.

 

Either way, I know none of this is going to change your mind and it wasn't intended to try and persuade you at all. My perspective, something to chew on if you're inclined.

[mixtupcpl 169]

Agree 100% with Slevin. As a rule of thumb, I try to be very careful with the "eye for an eye" logic. I've had it work out not so well for me in the past with much more serious things. Plus, if the husband really IS an ass, this one could quickly elevate to that "pretty serious" level.

 

One of Mrs. Mix's playmates was married (bad marriage, lousy wife, yadda yadda, whatever) It's the drama of that whole situation that really lead us to abandoning the open marriage.

 

Do what you want, but at least don't delude yourself into thinking that this situation won't lead to problems. It doesn't take intimate knowledge of all participants to know that. As a matter of fact, LACK of intimate knowledge of all participants probably makes it easier to recognize.

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

100% with slevin. If the couple is married, there's not going to be any solo action unless both spouses know about it happening, with whom and are in total complete consent. I expect people to respect our marriage, and I sure as heck am not going to spin around and not respect other people's marriages.

 

Shunting the decision of screwing up her marriage to her isn't fair to her, much less him and their marriage. I don't care if he's the epitome of a walking, breathing, cretin. If she wants to have a weekend romp with you without his permission, she'd better at least get separated first. At least, that's how I'd handle it.

 

This is one of the main reasons why my wife and I are reluctant to play with single males. Verifying they are truly single is essentially impossible, and I don't want to screw up someone's marriage.

 

You're playing with fire on this one Loki.

[Alura 2,774]

You're playing with fire on this one Loki.

 

I agree completely, Bbarnsworth.

 

However, this may be part of the motivation of Loki. He seems to think the adventure can be carried off without problems. He is in a far better position than I to determine that.

 

So I'll wish all involved the best and hope that no shootin' irons are drawn.

 

Too bad Loki's wife doesn't seem to be interested in Mr. Playmate. A partner swap could be such a simple and fun answer.

 

Mr. Alura

[CallMeLoki 32]

Too bad Loki's wife doesn't seem to be interested in Mr. Playmate. A partner swap could be such a simple and fun answer.

 

 

About 13 years ago, this would have probably been a realistic possibility. Once, the four of us ended up in my bed making out with our partners. If there hadn't been other folks there at this particular party, I have a feeling clothes very well may have started coming off. However, nowadays, I don't think too many women are attracted to this fellow...he can't seem to beg a lay from anyone, even his wife. He's a handsome fellow, nothing wrong there...his totally selfish mindset of "what's in this for me?" is the problem...you can talk to him for 30 seconds and see he's only after whatever he can get for himself, with very little regard for anyone else.

 

So, question: even if the playmate says "yes I have my spouse's permission", how do you know that's actually true? Even if you talk to the spouse to verify, how do you know that the spouse isn't being coerced into saying "he/she has my permission"? You don't. The only perspective that makes sense to me is that it's her responsibility to manage her marriage...that's not my business.

 

 

I know that she doesn't deal with guilt well, so if she decides "yes", then I'd fully expect her to probably take option #2 (tell him what she's going to do but not who she's going to do it with). That's what I'd actually expect. In reality, that choice could have a good effect for her rather than a bad one. I would expect him to respond one of two ways:

 

1) "Whoa! Holy shit! I don't want you to do that!" And maybe this would strike some fear into him and make him realize he's got to start making the right choices. (In this case, I'd expect her to come back to me and say "I can't do this", which I'll accept.)

 

Or, more likely...

 

2) Take a his normal completely selfish perspective and say "OK, go ahead...I get to do it too." He doesn't realize it, but this would actually work against him. (That's what you get for being selfish sometimes.) She's gorgeous and just loved by everyone...she could have 10 encounters by the time he's still begging for one. Him sitting there seeing his wife have all of the fun would damn sure give him some knots in his stomach and make him go "Oh shit, I am really screwing up here. I really need to change."

 

So, maybe it would turn out good for her in the long run. Maybe it would turn out good for him in the long run. Maybe it'll give her the strength to change what she needs to change. Maybe it'll give her a good memory that helps her endure what she isn't happy about. Or maybe it'll make her so dissatisfied with what she has that she forces something to change. (For that matter, even me asking might have the effect of giving her enough gumption to either kick his ass into shape or kick him out.) I can say from personal experience, sometimes making a drastic choice has a good effect that you didn't expect. Ultimately, whether she says yes or no, and how she handles her marriage is her decision, not mine.

 

I have made my choice already by asking. Sif supports me in that choice. I'm prepared to deal with any consequences. The worst consequence is that I lose his friendship, and I don't feel like that's a huge loss if it happens. The woman in question is far from a slut...if she wasn't already "emotionally divorced", there's no way in hell she'd even consider saying "yes".

 

I very rarely make selfish choices myself. However, this is my one selfish choice for this decade, and yeah, it's a doozy ain't it? If you're gonna be bad, you might as well do it right. In the grand scheme of things, I really don't feel that bad about it.

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

This has warning signs and crossbones&skulls written all over it.

 

Well, it's your life. Enjoy.

[CallMeLoki 32]

This has warning signs and crossbones&skulls written all over it.

 

Well, it's your life. Enjoy.

 

Yup, I know. That's what most people said about Sif's encounter too.

 

Loki

[Chicup 41]

I agree 100% with Chicup on this one.... oh wait....

 

Anyways this is a very interesting thread because the things done are almost 100% opposite to what I and Mrs. Chicup would do. Its one of those where I wish there was a 5 year follow up to see how things worked out, sadly we rarely get posts like that here.

 

Loki, and btw, excellent name choice considering this thread, I do appreciate you keeping up with this thread as it can give a different perspective. I hope you continue to do so, and honestly report, because it is so different than just about any of us would do.

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

 

The woman in question is far from a slut...if she wasn't already "emotionally divorced", there's no way in hell she'd even consider saying "yes".

 

I very rarely make selfish choices myself. However, this is my one selfish choice for this decade, and yeah, it's a doozy ain't it?

 

Loki

Here you admit to realizing that if this woman, a person you call your friend, was a happily married woman there would be no way she'd even consider playing with you...or doing any swinging!

 

You are right on one thing, you're a selfish man. And if your woman "friend" ever read this thread I doubt she'd want to be your friend any longer.

 

You are taking advantage of her in the worst way; she's in a bad marriage and women in bad marriages are targets for guys like you.

 

LM

[Alura 2,774]

 

So, question: even if the playmate says "yes I have my spouse's permission", how do you know that's actually true? Even if you talk to the spouse to verify, how do you know that the spouse isn't being coerced into saying "he/she has my permission"? You don't.

 

Loki

 

In most cases, Loki, you don't. There are times you can be pretty sure, though.

 

Once our Mrs. Playmate was in London on business. We were surprised when she called from there to tell us she had just talked to Mr. Playmate, who was really horny. She asked us if we'd call him and arrange a threesome.

 

"How do you feel about being left out?" we asked her.

 

"Well," she said, "I'm about 5,000 miles away, but I'd like to get my turn when I get back to Tulsa. How about if we have a threesome while Mr. Playmate watches? We could also wait until he has a speaking engagement out of town and do it then."

 

Everybody was comfortable with the situation which worked out well.

 

It's all about talking things out beforehand.

 

Mr. Alura

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

Yup, I know. That's what most people said about Sif's encounter too.

 

Loki

 

SiF's encounter didn't involve a potentially ballistic male who is being cheated on. You've already said he's very selfish. I don't want to imagine how a very selfish person is going to act when he finds out his wife is fucking a mutual 'friend'.

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

Loki, and btw, excellent name choice considering this thread, I do appreciate you keeping up with this thread as it can give a different perspective. I hope you continue to do so, and honestly report, because it is so different than just about any of us would do.

 

Double, triple, quadruple echo.

 

Loki, it's your life to live and I'm not judging you for your decisions. I think your decisions are very dangerous, but they are yours to make.

 

Many of us in the lifestyle would far prefer people on the outside wouldn't judge us based on lack of information. I think we owe you the same respect. I've tried to do that in my posts in response to you, but there's a fine line between advice and judge. If I've crossed it, forgive me.

 

Keep following up please!

[mixtupcpl 169]

Loki,

 

I'm not trying to preach at you bud, but we have some similar background here, so I'll keep giving you food for thought until you tell me to piss off.

 

About 13 years ago, this would have probably been a realistic possibility. Once, the four of us ended up in my bed making out with our partners. If there hadn't been other folks there at this particular party, I have a feeling clothes very well may have started coming off. However, nowadays, I don't think too many women are attracted to this fellow...he can't seem to beg a lay from anyone, even his wife. He's a handsome fellow, nothing wrong there...his totally selfish mindset of "what's in this for me?" is the problem...you can talk to him for 30 seconds and see he's only after whatever he can get for himself, with very little regard for anyone else.

 

So weird shared history, AND he is a narcissist. Not good man.

 

 

 

So, question: even if the playmate says "yes I have my spouse's permission", how do you know that's actually true? Even if you talk to the spouse to verify, how do you know that the spouse isn't being coerced into saying "he/she has my permission"? You don't. The only perspective that makes sense to me is that it's her responsibility to manage her marriage...that's not my business.

 

You don't *know* for sure, but in this case YOU *do* know for sure. So the logic here is faulty. If you do the best you can to verify things are straight, and then it turns out you were wrong, well you still had good intent. Here, you are going in knowing the situation is bad, so any hypotheticals are really irrelevant.

 

I know that she doesn't deal with guilt well, so if she decides "yes"....

 

(snip)

 

 

OR, maybe this can also be accomplished by her just confronting him on her own about this marriage that she is a PARTNER in. I mean why did it take this wake up call for her to confront an unhappy situation? As a friend, had you suggested to her before that she should tackle this miserable relationship? What was stopping her? "Im going to go fuck other people" is RARELY a good first step for "fixing" a bad marriage man.

 

However, this is my one selfish choice for this decade, and yeah, it's a doozy ain't it? If you're gonna be bad, you might as well do it right. In the grand scheme of things, I really don't feel that bad about it.Loki

 

Bad logic again man. When I was younger, this exact kind of thinking came very close to landing me in jail and even closer to putting me in an early grave. As a mature man, I look back on some of the choices I made and some of the people I ran with and think "what the FUCK was I doing?!"

 

You say you don't feel bad about it, but if it turns out to be devastating for your friend (who already seems fragile, btw), I think you will. If the guy turns psycho (which can happen quicker than you can imagine), then I KNOW you will.

 

Why not take a different approach. Encourage her to talk to him about what he's doing wrong. Have her give him the wake up call in a HEALTHY way. Then, over some time, have her recall that time you guys were all in bed. Maybe she can fix her marriage, and then bring him around to this lifestyle. If he's a good looking guy and moves beyond his asshole phase, maybe you can ALL end up having fun then, rather than potentially landing on the 6pm news. No?

[rpu3 630]

Yup, I know. That's what most people said about Sif's encounter too.

 

Loki

 

I don't recall Sif's partner being married. Big difference. Perhaps I need to re-read this novel of a thread, but I didn't think he was married.

 

I am in an open marriage and it is working out nicely for us, but we practice "first do no harm" - to ourselves and our relationship, and to those who may choose to interact with us. Neither of us are interested in deceit in order to practice an open marriage. Deceit, getting involved in cheating, the like, somewhat defeats the purpose of an open marriage, IMO, even if its the outsider's relationship that involves the cheating. Clearly, other's mileage may vary.

 

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Here you admit to realizing that if this woman, a person you call your friend, was a happily married woman there would be no way she'd even consider playing with you...or doing any swinging!

 

You are right on one thing, you're a selfish man. And if your woman "friend" ever read this thread I doubt she'd want to be your friend any longer.

 

You are taking advantage of her in the worst way; she's in a bad marriage and women in bad marriages are targets for guys like you.

 

LM

 

Actually, I'm not a selfish man. Anyone in my life would tell you that I'm one of the least selfish and most caring people they know (including my wife and this friend). Let's state it correctly my dear: I'm making a selfish choice for once where her husband is concerned. Making a truly selfish choice is something I very rarely do. I'm allowed to be human, aren't I? If not, then I'd like the first perfect and faultless person on this forum to please cast the first stone. (Do I hear cricket noises? )

 

It was actually really, really hard for me to decide to ask her. My wife asked me if that's what I wanted, I said "yes", and she encouraged me repeatedly (she had to, or I wouldn't have asked). I stressed over whether asking her would hurt my relationship with my wife, AND I stressed over whether asking would hurt my friendship with the friend (AND if it would hurt my wife's friendship with her as well). My wife convinced me that it would do us no harm (and it really took a while for her to convince me of this). And in thinking about my friendship, I knew asking the woman in question wouldn't hurt our friendship, as long as I only asked once, accepted her answer, and didn't pressure her. So, I said "what the hell" and asked.

 

And don't make me out to be some sort of predator, because I'm not. I'm not taking advantage of her...I never have and never would. We've slept in the same house alone and "stupid drunk" together at least once (maybe more that I can't remember) not too long ago. If I'd wanted to "take advantage" of her, I've had plenty of opportunities when she or I were both drunk and alone. She trusts me, and I trust her. Getting her drunk and making a move on her would be "taking advantage of her", I wouldn't do that, and she knows I wouldn't. Asking her up-front if she would want to spend a weekend away with me is NOT taking advantage of her, in my not-so-humble opinion.

 

I've posed the question to her...if she says "yes" or "no", I'll accept either answer and still treat her the same way that I always have. My friendship with her is much more important to me than whether she says yes or no. She knows that. And she knows me well enough to know that I believe "You don't know if you don't ask". She would expect me to be completely upfront with her about even something like this, because she knows that's how I am. She wasn't shocked at all that I asked her either. If she says "yes" and we do follow through with it, it'll be two mature adults having consentual sex. I'm no witch-doctor, and it's not like I'm casting any spells or anything.

 

You don't know how many times I've actually talked to the hubby in question and suggested things "don't lie to your wife", "why don't you forgo this and do something with your wife", "don't do things behind your wife's back", "why don't you consider your wife in this choice rather than just yourself", etc. His usual answer is "because this is what I want to do". Really...if she says "yes", it's hard for me to not feel like he deserves it. Sorry if that ruffles anyone's feathers, but that's the way I feel. If you don't like it, you're welcome to not like it.

 

She hasn't read this thread, but she knows most of what's in her part of it...and what she doesn't know I'll tell her as soon as she's ready to talk about it. We talk openly and honestly. I wouldn't try to manipulate anything about her choice, I respect her, and plus that's not exactly the way to keep a lifelong friend.

 

Loki

[mixtupcpl 169]

You don't know how many times I've actually talked to the hubby in question and suggested things "don't lie to your wife", "why don't you forgo this and do something with your wife", "don't do things behind your wife's back", "why don't you consider your wife in this choice rather than just yourself", etc. His usual answer is "because this is what I want to do". Really...if she says "yes", it's hard for me to not feel like he deserves it. Sorry if that ruffles anyone's feathers, but that's the way I feel. If you don't like it, you're welcome to not like it. ;

Loki

 

These are the kinds of conversations SHE needs to have with him though. It's not a question of anyone here having ruffled feathers, I think people are just giving some honest outside perspective. Much of it comes from experience also. The situation with Sif I was very much neutral on because I know that can turn out ok (although I dont recommend it)

 

This one is very different. Also, being drunk and being emotionally in a very bad place are similar. Not saying that you are necessarily taking advantage, but I think its an important thing that if she were very happily married to a great guy, you WOULDNT ask this. That DOES matter. I dont know about you, but amoral choices Ive made in the past do tend to haunt me. Its easy to rationalize in the moment, but whether or not you'll REALLY look back on this as having been the right thing to do is a totally different question.

[CallMeLoki 32]

You say you don't feel bad about it, but if it turns out to be devastating for your friend (who already seems fragile, btw), I think you will. If the guy turns psycho (which can happen quicker than you can imagine), then I KNOW you will.

 

Why not take a different approach. Encourage her to talk to him about what he's doing wrong. Have her give him the wake up call in a HEALTHY way. Then, over some time, have her recall that time you guys were all in bed. Maybe she can fix her marriage, and then bring him around to this lifestyle. If he's a good looking guy and moves beyond his asshole phase, maybe you can ALL end up having fun then, rather than potentially landing on the 6pm news. No?

 

OK, you've given me two valid things to think about. If I thought this would end up badly for her, I'd withdraw my offer. Seriously...I care about this person, and the last thing I'd want to do is cause her any harm. I may need to think about this one. And her and I need to talk about this one.

 

Oh believe me, we've all been encouraging her for years now, and encouraging him to do the right thing too. She's tried many, many times. He simply says "OK, I'll do what you ask!" Then, he goes about his own pursuits without a second thought. I wouldn't say she's fragile at all...she's quite a strong, intelligent, and confident woman, just very gentle and not confrontational. (Actually, I've seen her confront someone only a couple or three times in 15 years, and one of those times she was actually protecting me! LOL.). In some ways, we have a very brother/sister kind of relationship.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

This one is very different. Also, being drunk and being emotionally in a very bad place are similar. Not saying that you are necessarily taking advantage, but I think its an important thing that if she were very happily married to a great guy, you WOULDNT ask this. That DOES matter. I dont know about you, but amoral choices Ive made in the past do tend to haunt me. Its easy to rationalize in the moment, but whether or not you'll REALLY look back on this as having been the right thing to do is a totally different question.

 

Hmm...let me think about this one. My original thought was that I'd only do this if she decided to tell him at least what she was going to do. (And I'd expect that's what she's thinking, but I don't know for sure.) Later I thought it over and decided "I'm not sure I care which she does, as long as she's OK with her decision". But, maybe I need to rethink that. I really wouldn't want her to feel a bunch of guilt.

 

And I probably need to back up and check myself here. On the bad hubby/good hubby thought...I think some of my "rescue instinct" may be kicking in. I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but I probably need to think about it.

 

Story to share on my "rescue instinct"...my wife was with an abusive boyfriend for 12 years when I met her. He was physically and verbally (and emotionally) abusive to her. I took her right away from him, and I felt little or no guilt about it. That's what I'm referring to as my "rescue instinct"...my guilt switch gets turned off when I feel like there's injustice involved. (If you have someone good, and you don't treat them well, someone else will be more than happy to take them off your hands. And they'll be more than happy to go. That's human nature.) Now, in my friend's case, I only want to "take her away" for a weekend, not a lifetime of course (although our friendship I'm sure will be a lifetime friendship). It's kind of like a vacation from reality for a weekend I guess. So, I guess my "rescue instinct" is turning my guilt switch off where the hubby is concerned, because of the situation. But, I have to consider that maybe that's not fair to her? I wouldn't want to entice her into something that's going to be bad for her, or create a bunch of emotional turmoil for her. This is a good question to talk about with her, I think.

 

Thanks Mix!

Loki

[BiloxiCouple 695]

The theme song from Cops is now running thru my head...

[mixtupcpl 169]

The theme song from Cops is now running thru my head...

 

"Tonight on COPS: NC... Swinging gone wrong as the COPS team responds to a domestic disturbance with a SPECIAL Twist!"

 

[clean cut looking "all American" officer] "yeah well you see this kind of thing all the time with "these swingers"... he said she said, one play partner not coming clean with the spouse and then the spouse loses it. This one got a little ugly so we're taking them all downtown to cool off... They didn't have any dope on them though, so we'll probably cut em loose in 24 hours with a warning to ONLY HAVE SEX WITH EACH OTHER from now on!"

 

[announcer] "thats some good advice for ALL of us officer! NEXT on COPS: NC! the officers score BIG when they come across some poor schmuck with TWO dime bags of loco weed!"

 

Sorry Loki! Couldnt resist! Although maybe it should be COPS: Asgard?

[good times 991]

The funny thing about this to me is when I read this, the first thing I thought about was a show we watched the other night where the guy shot and killed his wife's lover. He was indicted and when he went to trial and the jury found him not guilty and let him go.

[mixtupcpl 169]

The funny thing about this to me is when I read this, the first thing I thought about was a show we watched the other night where the guy shot and killed his wife's lover. He was indicted and when he went to trial and the jury found him not guilty and let him go.

 

 

What state?! That seems impossible to me. Unless there was a struggle and it became self defense? I mean if the guy came in and caught them, and said "get the fuck out of my house!" and then the "lover" swung on him or whatever... Well then sure I can see the husband getting away with shooting him. But cold blooded murder?

 

Or was this fiction? Personally, I can't imagine how any clear thinking person can sit on a jury and feel that infidelity warrants murder. Thats some crazy shit.

[PB&J 1,086]

Under the Napoleonic Code, a man who murdered his cheatin' wife and her lover was not guilty of murder because it was a crime of passion. Of course, if a woman killed her cheatin' man, it was murder, pure and simple.

 

Well, at least now that Swingtown's off the air, we have something to talk about.

[CallMeLoki 32]

"Tonight on COPS: NC... Swinging gone wrong as the COPS team responds to a domestic disturbance with a SPECIAL Twist!"

...

Sorry Loki! Couldnt resist! Although maybe it should be COPS: Asgard?

 

ROTFLMAO! If you only knew how funny this actually is...

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Under the Napoleonic Code, a man who murdered his cheatin' wife and her lover was not guilty of murder because it was a crime of passion. Of course, if a woman killed her cheatin' man, it was murder, pure and simple.

 

Of course. Historically, women have been treated as men's property. I quite detest double-standards.

 

Well, at least now that Swingtown's off the air, we have something to talk about.

 

What? Already? WTF? Maybe we'll get out the video camera when Sif's cyber-BF comes down for this concert next month. (Just kidding...)

 

Loki

[fun4Ds 1,098]

I don't know about all this Loki.

 

One of the rules we have playing with anyone is, we steer clear of bad relationships. You have now jumped in the middle of that for sure. I cant see anything for the good here.

 

You have already taken this to a revenge fuck. You don't like her husband. You judged him worthy of being cheated on. If I wanted to, I could find many of women in bad relationships. You only need one I guess. Its kind of sad........

 

I can tell you there have been plenty of men (married and single) hit on my wife behind my back. And yes, even some people I thought were friends. To this day I never fucked their wives. Just didn't think I would feel good about it I suppose. We have helped a few women in bad relationships. We loaned money or even helped a few move out from abuse. A few drunken nights they have even offered to have sex. I always turned it down though. Does that give me the right to cast the first stone ? No, not at all Loki.

 

It does give me the right to feel good about myself. I go to bed at night without these things as regrets. I wake in the morning knowing I can without a doubt possess something that feels good. Casting the stone at you wouldn't do any good. I truly wish you could see something that maybe your missing. Isn't there a part of you that knows you will always be able to look at this other man and say. " I could have fucked your wife like you tried to do mine, behind your back, and didn't " Its not about casting stones Loki, its about shaking someones hand. Your actually the one casting the stone.... at him. I've never in my life had sex with another mans wife who's hand I couldn't shake, in a true and trusting friendship. There are men, who's hand I could never shake. I don't have sex with their wives. Its for the good.

[CallMeLoki 32]

I don't know about all this Loki.

 

One of the rules we have playing with anyone is, we steer clear of bad relationships. You have now jumped in the middle of that for sure. I cant see anything for the good here.

 

You have already taken this to a revenge fuck. You don't like her husband. You judged him worthy of being cheated on. If I wanted to, I could find many of women in bad relationships. You only need one I guess. Its kind of sad........

 

I can tell you there have been plenty of men (married and single) hit on my wife behind my back. And yes, even some people I thought were friends. To this day I never fucked their wives. Just didn't think I would feel good about it I suppose. We have helped a few women in bad relationships. We loaned money or even helped a few move out from abuse. A few drunken nights they have even offered to have sex. I always turned it down though. Does that give me the right to cast the first stone ? No, not at all Loki.

 

It does give me the right to feel good about myself. I go to bed at night without these things as regrets. I wake in the morning knowing I can without a doubt possess something that feels good. Casting the stone at you wouldn't do any good. I truly wish you could see something that maybe your missing. Isn't there a part of you that knows you will always be able to look at this other man and say. " I could have fucked your wife like you tried to do mine, behind your back, and didn't " Its not about casting stones Loki, its about shaking someones hand. Your actually the one casting the stone.... at him. I've never in my life had sex with another mans wife who's hand I couldn't shake, in a true and trusting friendship. There are men, who's hand I could never shake. I don't have sex with their wives. Its for the good.

 

You guys are definitely giving me some things to think about here. I'm definitely the better man (ie. better human being) between the two of us, which is probably why I've gotten what I think is a "maybe" while he got a hard "no". (But then really, if I do this how can I judge him for anything?) I really don't think I'd be able to do this with total deceit. If she told him what she was doing but not whom with, I could live with that...the important part really is that he know what she's doing...it doesn't matter so much who she's doing it with. IMHO, anyway. If she told him what she's doing and that it would be with me, I'd be fine with that EXCEPT I know he'll hound my wife a few times to sleep with him in return (and she doesn't have any desire to), so that makes it a little awkward for my wife, which I'd really rather not do. I don't care if he knows it's me, I can deal with him...I just don't want my wife to have to beat him off her because of it.

 

Oh, I should clarify one thing: he and I have jokingly given each other permission to sleep with each other's wife before. We've made plenty of jokes about swapping partners for the night, etc. He asked me once about a year ago if he could have sex with my wife...I jokingly said something along the lines of "You have my permission, but I'm not the one you have to convince! Do I get the same privilege?" He said "sure" if I recall. He didn't tell me that he actually did ask my wife though, she did. I'm not upset about any of that. I just don't feel any guilt for asking his wife. So, that part is not a vengeful act, it's an execution of fairness IMO. Anyway I slice it, asking doesn't seem wrong. (Now who knows...even if she says "yes", I might think it over and decide it's really not something we should do anyway. It's still a little bit more fantasy right now since the first response was sort of a "maybe" in my interpretation...if or when it moves a bit more into the realm of reality, that will force me to seriously think it over in reality terms, I think.)

 

Another thought...I detest deceit (who doesn't?), but then who here can say they've never deceived anyone about their swinger habits? Who here has never lied to your kids, co-workers, neighbors, folks at church, friends, school-mates' parents, family members, nor anyone else about your lifestyle? Interesting question, huh? Are some lies OK while other's are not? I can see it now...someone at church asks "where were you guys last weekend?". "Well, I was off in a hotel room..." Not being sarcastic here...it seems like a valid question.

 

Loki

[mixtupcpl 169]

I think it comes down to intent. Most people will lie to protect themselves and that's fine. A betrayal, in my mind, is a different thing. Like anything else, there are orders of magnitude when it comes do deceit. To me, if someone "deserves it", then they need to be confronted and things need to be out in the open. As Mr Fun said quite well, you can sleep well knowing that you didnt betray a trust (even if the other person didnt really deserve any loyalty)

 

It seems to me like you and Sif are pretty close with this couple over all. Its just a weird dynamic that the four of you have.

 

Why don't all three of you do an intervention or something with him? I mean wouldnt it be a nicer situation if he came around and realized he was being an asshole? Wasnt there EVER a time when he was a decent guy? It seems there must have been since your friend married him and, presumably, you all had fun together at some point.

 

If he wasnt always like this, something must have driven the change in his behavior. I would think it would be better all around if you all got to the bottom of what it is and helped him fix it.

 

If he's ALWAYS been an asshole, then its back to why is this seemingly great girl allowing the years to waste away while she exists in a shitty limbo of a relationship?

 

And given that, as far as anyone involved knows, you're all vanilla friends... how has it been acceptable for him to be trying to fuck Sif?

 

Im just thinking of my situation. Mrs. Mix and I were/are open, but our vanilla friends have NO clue. So if one of them were openly trying to fuck her, that would be a BIG issue to me. Ironic and hypocritical, yeah, but its a respect thing and it WOULD be a problem that would cause a confrontation.

 

Im just struggling with understanding the dynamic the 4 of you have...

[PB&J 1,086]

I detest deceit (who doesn't?), but then who here can say they've never deceived anyone about their swinger habits? Who here has never lied to your kids, co-workers, neighbors, folks at church, friends, school-mates' parents, family members, nor anyone else about your lifestyle? Interesting question, huh? Are some lies OK while other's are not? I can see it now...someone at church asks "where were you guys last weekend?". "Well, I was off in a hotel room..." Not being sarcastic here...it seems like a valid question.

 

You're comparing apples and oranges.There's a bit of a difference between not telling a co-worker what (or who) you were doing, and a woman not telling her husband whom she's having sex with. In the swinger world, anyway. Most people, I think, would agree that it's not the business of anyone but the spouse- but it is MOST DEFINITELY the business of the spouse.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Actually, yes...this fellow used to be someone I looked up to. He had so many good qualities about him. The four of us used to be quite close. As we've all gotten older, had kids, etc., all of us have gotten much less selfish (don't you have to with kids?), while he has gotten more selfish. He has lost quite a few friends over the years because of his selfishness. Folks just don't want to hang out with him because there's always something he's after or some agenda. I still try to like him, but sometimes it's really hard.

 

Why does she stay? Well, he isn't abusive to her (I and probably a few others would go kick his ass in a hurry). He provides financially for his family, and he's not an alcoholic or drug addict. I think she's probably really staying only because she wants to keep a "family" intact for their kids. He works part of the time in a foreign country, and tried to pressure her to move there, she refused...I'm sure if they seperated or divorced, he'd just move and his kids would probably see him once or twice a year. He probably wouldn't even care, but the kids would care and his wife would care, so I'm sure that's part of her decision. She's unhappy, but I think she knows that it could be much worse so she's willing to just live with it and try to make it work between periods of just being numb and exhausted by it. I know they've discussed trying to work out their issues, just living with it the way it is, living as "room-mates", and seperating/divorcing. Ya know, I dunno. He's happy as a lark with the exception of not getting enough sex. She's certainly not perfect, she makes mistakes and bad choices like any of us...but everyone can easily see that her heart is in the right place. It's easy to see his is not.

 

Yeah, the dynamics are quite complicated. For all of us. Isn't that always the case with human beings? Nothing is ever truly black and white.

 

Loki

[BiloxiCouple 695]

It seems you will justify to do whatever you want to do.

 

We give advice for one thing you agree and then try to justify it another way. And the story keeps going and going and going.....

 

If I heard this conversation in person, I would have walked away from it.

[fun4Ds 1,098]

You guys are definitely giving me some things to think about here.

I'm definitely the better man (ie. better human being) between the two of us, which is probably why I've gotten what I think is a "maybe" while he got a hard "no".

Thats what the price is. Will you pay ?

(But then really, if I do this how can I judge him for anything?) I really don't think I'd be able to do this with total deceit. If she told him what she was doing but not whom with, I could live with that...

So then for the rest of your life I guess you will always face him, knowing. I fucked your wife, and you didn't know it was me. You deserved it, we were all in on it. Isn't it the truth ? What justifies it for you guys. How would you feel if this guy Sif was with over the weekend fooled you. Thinking, I fucked your wife loki, next time you wont have the privilege knowing it was me ?

 

What if ? Really, you didn't know the guy and took a chance. Things worked out for the good so far.

 

the important part really is that he know what she's doing...it doesn't matter so much who she's doing it with. IMHO, anyway. If she told him what she's doing and that it would be with me, I'd be fine with that EXCEPT I know he'll hound my wife a few times to sleep with him in return (and she doesn't have any desire to), so that makes it a little awkward for my wife, which I'd really rather not do. I don't care if he knows it's me, I can deal with him...I just don't want my wife to have to beat him off her because of it.

So your saying its fair that your going to fuck his wife. But you don't want him pursuing SIF ? I think beside the fact of a really bad outcome,your being deceitfully unfair. Sif had the right to say NO. You have the right and agree that its NO between him and sif. Where is his right to say NO to you and Sif now ? You said your better than him earlier. He hit on Sif already. I'm sure in his mind he justified his intents. Now you justify yours. It doesn't make sense to me. I would have thought more of you.

 

I detest deceit (who doesn't?)

You don't care if he knows it's you ? Your asking her to do the very things you don't like about him. I just keep thinking:rolleyes:, What an evil web we weave, when first we try to deceive.

 

Look how far and to the extremes you went to to give Sif a safe experience, because you cared. What about the jeopardy you are putting this other female in ? Can you offer her complete safety ? Not from you, but him.

 

but then who here can say they've never deceived anyone about their swinger habits?

That would be us

 

 

 

Who here has never lied to your kids, co-workers, neighbors, folks at church, friends, school-mates' parents, family members, nor anyone else about your lifestyle? Interesting question, huh? Are some lies OK while other's are not? I can see it now...someone at church asks "where were you guys last weekend?". "Well, I was off in a hotel room..." Not being sarcastic here...it seems like a valid question.

Valid indeed. All of these people could ask... And we only reply with "we were with our friends". So far the reality and truth is. They never asked us if we fucked them. Well.. one of my sons did. Even so, I was honest. He kind of thought it was cool that the single female we were with is freaking hot. Thats a whole different subject though.

 

The thing is, I didn't have to explain why I fucked someones wife behind her husbands back.

 

Thats for you, if you keep justifying this. Were just different I guess. There is nothing wrong with that. I do find it strange that you and Sif went to all the trouble to keep things drama free with her experience. Covering all the bases. Now your going into this the way you are.

 

Is finding a compatible single female that hard ? I mean you have what it takes. We play with single females that want to be with us. No drama no regrets. It seems your blinded by something here. Is convenience the reason ?

[fun4Ds 1,098]

Loki you added some points that make a big difference now. Your talking about full blown Swinging with this couple. There wont be any more were not swinging in a conventional way. Your in now

 

He asked you to sleep with your wife. As a friend. You said, she said NO !! period. This is a whole new thing now. You need to ask him if its still ok to spend the weekend with his wife. We play with couples each time we ask. There are no exceptions.

 

Swing or cheat its your call now ! You know the rules !

[CallMeLoki 32]

Fun4Ds...I think you've asked a really good question...why her, with all the risks that appear to be included? Let me think about that one.

 

No, it's not convenience.

 

1) We have a strong connection as friends AND she's a very attractive woman...that's a big part of it. (The strong connection is the same reason Sif chose who she did, I respect that for her, and she respects this for me. No lectures on emotional attachments, please!)

 

2) I know that's she's somewhat sexually reserved and inhibited...given our long-term friendship, I feel a challenge to get her to let go and really enjoy herself, so that's a big part of the appeal for me I think...I want to just rock her world for a day or two because I'm quite sure I can.

 

3) She's the only woman I know that I'd actually WANT to spend a whole weekend with (other than my wife). Even if we canceled any plans to tango, we'd still have a blast just hanging out, talking, having drinks, and doing a little partying. It wouldn't be a truly disappointing weekend if not a bit of sex transpired. Originally, we were looking for an FMF and a MFM threesome, and I'd be happy with someone else who was attractive (the strong connection would come from my wife in that case, so I wouldn't *need* a strong connection with the second woman, although it would be nice). However, since my wife and I decided to do "alone time" rather a pair of threesomes, that makes me more selective...and she's the only one I know that fits what I'd want. (Now, I could meet a single woman or divorcee who might be a good fit tommorrow, but we also won't have 15 years of trust and connection with each other.) So, yeah, I'm very selective, but it's because I can be.

 

4) She's a difficult choice because she's close to both of us, BUT that also makes her a safe choice (not considering the hubby). She loves me as a friend AND she loves my wife as a friend...she wants to keep our friendships in place just as much as we do. That insures no drama from her...she would clearly understand and agree that we're going off to have a weekend of escape from reality, and that we'll act like it never happened when we get back. (Again, no emotional attachment lectures please. I knew this woman and thought she was awesome BEFORE I knew my wife, and I don't want to hear how we'll probably run off together afterwards, etc.)

 

You guys made another good observation...I did my best to insure that my wife would be safe for her deal. How would I insure that this woman will be safe where her hubby is concerned during and/or after our potential encounter? Ya know, that is a damned good question. Thank you for asking that. A straight 48 hours of carnal adventure unquestionably would NOT be worth any harm coming to this person! This is something else I need to think about.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Loki you added some points that make a big difference now. Your talking about full blown Swinging with this couple. There wont be any more were not swinging in a conventional way. Your in now

 

He asked you to sleep with your wife. As a friend. You said, she said NO !! period. This is a whole new thing now. You need to ask him if its still ok to spend the weekend with his wife. We play with couples each time we ask. There are no exceptions.

 

Swing or cheat its your call now ! You know the rules !

 

OK, good point here. If she says "yes", then perhaps the most fair course of action is for me to just go ask his permission. I don't see how he could say "no" actually, although it might require a little persuasion from me.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

It seems you will justify to do whatever you want to do.

 

We give advice for one thing you agree and then try to justify it another way. And the story keeps going and going and going.....

 

If I heard this conversation in person, I would have walked away from it.

 

Feel free to walk away now. Your comments above added nothing of value. Thanks!

 

I don't mean to be rude, but as has already been observed, this relationship is long and has lots of dynamics, many of which have changed somewhat over the years.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

I detest deceit (who doesn't?), but then who here can say they've never deceived anyone about their swinger habits? Who here has never lied to your kids, co-workers, neighbors, folks at church, friends, school-mates' parents, family members, nor anyone else about your lifestyle? Interesting question, huh? Are some lies OK while other's are not? I can see it now...someone at church asks "where were you guys last weekend?". "Well, I was off in a hotel room..." Not being sarcastic here...it seems like a valid question.

 

You're comparing apples and oranges.There's a bit of a difference between not telling a co-worker what (or who) you were doing, and a woman not telling her husband whom she's having sex with. In the swinger world, anyway. Most people, I think, would agree that it's not the business of anyone but the spouse- but it is MOST DEFINITELY the business of the spouse.

 

I am, but then a fruit (or deception) is a fruit (or deception) isn't it? What is your personal scale for determining which lies are OK to tell and which lies are not OK to tell?

 

Definitely agreed on the 2nd point, but it has to go both ways to work in reality.

 

Loki

[PB&J 1,086]

What is your personal scale for determining which lies are OK to tell and which lies are not OK to tell?

 

I believe that I already made that clear:

it's not the business of anyone but the spouse- but it is MOST DEFINITELY the business of the spouse.

[Chicup 41]

I am, but then a fruit (or deception) is a fruit (or deception) isn't it? What is your personal scale for determining which lies are OK to tell and which lies are not OK to tell?

 

Horrible justification.

 

I can punch someone to save a life, or I could punch someone because I just don't like their face. The act is the same but the motivation is not.

 

Lying it self is not dishonorable, and there are times where lying is the right thing to do, since the truth would unnecessarily cause distress. To try to lump all lies into one moral equivalent is fundamentalist thinking if you honestly believe it and more likely self deception.

 

If someone asks if I'm a swinger and I say no, I have lied but lied to someone about a subject they have no business knowing. I could say 'I choose not to answer that' in some form, but that is often viewed an as admission. No one is getting hurt by me being a swinger, and more importantly no one will get all stabby if I were found out.

 

Your deception is dishonorable. You are committing an act which would directly hurt someone else if discovered, and which would most likely change the course of his life. Not to mention the whole possibility of that stabby thing.

 

Your actions don't even have the heat of passion as an excuse but a cold calculated and willful deception you justify because he hit on your wife at some point and she declined.

 

You are not the keeper of his wife's morality, but you are the keeper of your own.

 

Rather then create an armor of sophistry about you, just face your desire for what it is. You wish to sleep with that mans wife to satisfy your own lust and enjoy a feeling of dominance over the other male. This isn't a honorable thing to do, regardless of if he would do the same to you, and you are willfully doing said action.

 

If your own moral compass allows you to do so and to feel good about what you did, then do it, but don't take the weak route trying to justify it beyond what it is.

[Alura 2,774]

Under the Napoleonic Code, a man who murdered his cheatin' wife and her lover was not guilty of murder because it was a crime of passion.

 

Texas had such a law not too many years ago. I don't know if it has changed since. Many states overhauled their sex laws in the seventies and eighties.

 

Mr. Alura

[CallMeLoki 32]

I can punch someone to save a life, or I could punch someone because I just don't like their face. The act is the same but the motivation is not.

 

OK, good point.

 

You wish to sleep with that mans wife to satisfy your own lust and enjoy a feeling of dominance over the other male. This isn't a honorable thing to do, regardless of if he would do the same to you, and you are willfully doing said action.

 

Lust, absolutely yes. I could throw this woman down and eat the panties right off of her, fabric and all. Dominance...hmm, let me think about that one, perhaps you are correct. And ya know, you are definitely correct about the honor part too...I should treat him the way I'd like to be treated. That's what I do with everyone else...deciding any other way would be totally out of character for me.

 

So, if she decides "yes", then I'll make this work in a way that is fair to him, or I just won't do it. That seems to be the only "right" choice.

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

So, if she decides "yes", then I'll make this work in a way that is fair to him, or I just won't do it. That seems to be the only "right" choice.

 

A break in the clouds

 

I was losing faith in your sanity

[CallMeLoki 32]

What is your personal scale for determining which lies are OK to tell and which lies are not OK to tell?

 

I believe that I already made that clear:

it's not the business of anyone but the spouse- but it is MOST DEFINITELY the business of the spouse.

 

OK, agreed!

 

So, within that, what is your scale for how much you share? Do you share 100% of your feelings about your encounter partner with your spouse, even if you knew it would be hurtful to your spouse? For instance, if you started to feel "in-love" with a swing partner, would you tell your spouse you felt that way, or no? Would you wait and just see if the feeling goes away by itself, or if you can reduce your own emotional attachment? And is there deceit in that, or no? (And I realize you probably have to answer "yes I would tell my spouse" if your spouse participates in this forum as well, so you really don't even need to answer this question here...it's just posed for discussion's sake.)

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

A break in the clouds

 

I was losing faith in your sanity

 

 

Well, ya know, lots of things are very "gray"...sometimes it's difficult to cram them into black and white...especially without talking about it quite a bit. So thanks for all the posts and comments folks.

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

Another thought...I detest deceit (who doesn't?), but then who here can say they've never deceived anyone about their swinger habits? Who here has never lied to your kids, co-workers, neighbors, folks at church, friends, school-mates' parents, family members, nor anyone else about your lifestyle? Interesting question, huh? Are some lies OK while other's are not? I can see it now...someone at church asks "where were you guys last weekend?". "Well, I was off in a hotel room..." Not being sarcastic here...it seems like a valid question.

 

There's a large difference between lying and not telling the whole truth. For example, your wife went off to bang mr cyber boyfriend for a weekend. Your nine year old daughter will of course want to know why mommy was gone for several days. You can answer with a lie:

 

"Mommy went to a conference this weekend. She'll be back in a couple of days"

 

You can answer with out lying, but not telling the whole story:

 

"Mommy is spending some time with a friend out of town this weekend."

 

Or you can be bluntly honest:

 

"Mommy is spending some time with her boyfriend this weekend. Yes, I know about it and I'm happy for her to have sex with someone else"

 

In answering questions regarding what I was doing when I was swinging, I don't lie. I also don't tell the entire story. My wife and I have agreed to keep our swinging lives separate from our regular day to day lives. Our vanilla friends do not know, and we intend on keeping it that way. Same for the rest of our families. We don't see this as deceitful.

 

Between the two of us, we're completely honest and open. The difference between not lying and honesty is that with honesty, you get the whole story. The only time we allow lying to each other is when we're trying to set up a surprise of some kind. "Honey? Why'd you take out $200 from an ATM?" "A got a flat tire on the east side, and the repair shop's credit card machine was down"...meanwhile, I'm shunting that $200 off into a Christmas fund That is ok. Whereas, if I was shunting that money off to pay for a hotel room to screw a woman behind my wife's back... The only way I'll screw another woman behind my wife's back is if she happens to be facing away from me while I'm doing it, and my wife is getting it from the other woman's husband.

[CallMeLoki 32]

OK, fairness question:

 

Just for the sake of discussion, suppose she said "yes" and decided to tell him WHAT she was going to do but not WITH WHOM. But, she tells him he can go have a weekend fling too, and she doesn't want him to tell her who it is. (I could see her perhaps making a choice like this if she decided "yes".)

 

I'm trying to figure how I'd actually feel about that. And I'm not really sure, to be honest. Do you think that's fair to him, or no? Again, I get to the point of "that's her and his business, not mine." Yeah, I'd have to shake his hand knowing "yeah, I fucked your wife's brains out for a weekend"...but then someone else might very well be shaking her hand knowing "I've fucked your husband". As stated above by PB&J, some deceit is justified (pre-agreed upon in the above case) and some deceit is not, and it depends on the situation.

 

So I guess here's the real question: At what point am I relieved of any moral responsibility for her and his decisions about how open and honest to be with each other? I'm not trying to justify anything here...this seems like a really valid question.

 

Loki