Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[Chicup 41]

Really? Is this true? Do I have to "pretend" to be a cheater rather than simply saying "we have an open marriage?"

 

Loki

 

No idea, never tried it myself, but I could see how this would be the case.

[CallMeLoki 32]

No idea, never tried it myself, but I could see how this would be the case.

 

Why do you think that? You may have a point...what is it, 40% of men have affairs and about 30% of women? Sounds like there's plenty of women who don't mind fucking a married man in secret, doesn't it? Ladies, is there some appeal to a cheater that doesn't exist with a married man who has "permission"?

 

I'm a very straightforward person...pretending to be a "cheater" would be quite hard for me, actually.

 

Loki

[rpu3 630]

Really? Is this true? Do I have to "pretend" to be a cheater rather than simply saying "we have an open marriage?"

 

Loki

 

No, it's not true. I just posted today that my spouse has not lied or used deceit to meet women. So at least one person on this earth has had "success" by not lying or pretending. The Spousal Unit always been completely upfront about his open marriage status. And surprisingly, he's had opportunities even if he didn't go forward. Far more opportunity than I thought he'd have.

 

Perhaps it's easier if one lied or pretended. But it's possible to not lie or pretend and still be "successful", however that may be defined.

[rpu3 630]

So, really...instead of criticisms and moral judgements, the best thing I can get from you guys is just helping me work through the process of whether to go or no-go IF the friend says "yes", and how to insure that I protect myself and her. And most of the posts have been really helpful in that regard. However, comments like "you're a selfish man" or "you're a predator" are not only untrue, they are not at all helpful to myself nor Sif. I'm not looking for moral judgements from swingers, I'm looking for help and advice from swingers.

 

Loki

 

I'm not sure how you'd get a full perspective if criticism and the occasional moral judgment can't be offered. At times, swinging a clue by four at the poster's head might be the only approach that works. You don't have to listen, of course, but criticism can be an helpful tool to another person reading. I don't see the Board as a personal cheerleading section, but simply a sounding board in which you are going to get a WIDE range of viewpoints and reactions, but not just the ones you want to hear.

 

If you go and do it with this woman without her spouse's knowledge (regardless of his asshole status), I'm not going to change my opinion about the deceit involved and how I think this is contrary to the point of an open marriage. You don't have to read my viewpoint or accept it, but it should be there, if that's my (or some other poster's) take.

 

There's not a lot of value in a thread that doesn't allow for criticism. Insults - not good. Criticism - it's a valid point, falls into free speech and potentially is of value to someone, if not you in particular for that situation.

[CallMeLoki 32]

No, it's not true. I just posted today that my spouse has not lied or used deceit to meet women. So at least one person on this earth has had "success" by not lying or pretending. The Spousal Unit always been completely upfront about his open marriage status. And surprisingly, he's had opportunities even if he didn't go forward. Far more opportunity than I thought he'd have.

 

Perhaps it's easier if one lied or pretended. But it's possible to not lie or pretend and still be "successful", however that may be defined.

 

Where's a "whew" smiley when you need it? Let me look for that thread...thanks RPU!

 

Loki

[rpu3 630]

Where's a "whew" smiley when you need it? Let me look for that thread...thanks RPU!

 

Loki

 

I posted that in this thread earlier this morning:

 

As hard as it can be for a guy in an open marriage, my spouse has managed to meet women without the deceit or cheating angles. It can be done. Then again, neither one of us need to fuck someone else so that we have to get into potential drama or to hurt others to do so. We are fine on our own, so we don't need to create bad karma or hurt anyone else in opening our marriage or swinging.

 

Although I'm sure I've said he's not lied in other threads.

[CallMeLoki 32]

I'm not sure how you'd get a full perspective if criticism and the occasional moral judgment can't be offered. At times, swinging a clue by four at the poster's head might be the only approach that works. You don't have to listen, of course, but criticism can be an helpful tool to another person reading. I don't see the Board as a personal cheerleading section, but simply a sounding board in which you are going to get a WIDE range of viewpoints and reactions, but not just the ones you want to hear.

 

If you go and do it with this woman without her spouse's knowledge (regardless of his asshole status), I'm not going to change my opinion about the deceit involved and how I think this is contrary to the point of an open marriage. You don't have to read my viewpoint or accept it, but it should be there, if that's my (or some other poster's) take.

 

There's not a lot of value in a thread that doesn't allow for criticism. Insults - not good. Criticism - it's a valid point, falls into free speech and potentially is of value to someone, if not you in particular for that situation.

 

OK, fair enough and definitely agreed. As I've said in an earlier thread, I do want people to challenge me, because it makes me think and contemplate. In fact, I'm sure you've endured a lot of criticism and several floggings on this board because of your choice to do an open marriage rather than convential swinging. So, you probably have a good feel for some of my challenges here.

 

I guess it's the name-calling that I was really focusing on here ("You are a selfish man", "You are a predator")...namecalling really pisses me off, especially when I don't feel like it's at all deserved!

 

I really don't think I could go off and do this with her if I knew she was not going to tell him that at least she was going to do it. I know that would bother me, and we'd both carry a lot of guilt.

 

Loki

[mixtupcpl 169]

I think what he meant was that to be a male in an open marriage you either have to PRETEND to be a cheater or a single to get any action. Women don't open up to the 'I have permission' angle like men do.

 

Yes, thats exactly correct.

[mixtupcpl 169]

No, it's not true. I just posted today that my spouse has not lied or used deceit to meet women. So at least one person on this earth has had "success" by not lying or pretending. The Spousal Unit always been completely upfront about his open marriage status. And surprisingly, he's had opportunities even if he didn't go forward. Far more opportunity than I thought he'd have.

 

Perhaps it's easier if one lied or pretended. But it's possible to not lie or pretend and still be "successful", however that may be defined.

 

Ill search for your posts. I had done some searches on the topic here, but I'll look for yours in particular.

 

I'll just maintain that my experience, and the experience of friends of mine who share this lifestyle, is very much the opposite of your husbands. VERY much the opposite to the point where I would say that finding a woman who says "oh great! you have an open marriage and so have permission, lets go!" is the equivalent of finding the swinging single female unicorn that always gets discussed here. Unless you mean that over the course of a long period of time (years and years) your husband has had this happen maybe once or twice and is fine with that. That would make some sense to me as, of course, even the rarest occurrence does occur occasionally. It happened to me once or twice over the course of a decade too. And one of those times even lead to a clean break, but I consider that a huge rarity.

 

I never suggest that anything is absolute, just that there are certain probabilities to all of this.

 

Where we differ, I think, is that when I see people coming here looking for advice on "open vs. swinging" (seems it happens a lot), I will definitely steer them away from an open marriage and towards swinging because I genuinely believe it is just the better way to go. Im not in any way trying to invalidate what you're saying, I just think that the probabilities lean more towards the average person having the experience I've had (unless there's something I'm missing which I hope to see in your posts on the topic)

[2inSanDiego4u 181]

You are what experienced swingers often call a DRAMA SWINGER.

 

It sounds like what Mrs. Loki has done and Loki wants to do are not swinging at all, actually. Way too much emotional stuff going on to be normal swinging, IMHO. Maybe polyamory of one sort or another, but not swinging.

 

Fun4Ds said something very important some pages back, that they do not get involved with anyone in a bad relationship. This is one of our rules as well, and we established this very early on because our second couple happened to be in a bad relationship. We did not know until it was too late. There were a few signs but nothing too noticeable until much later.

 

We really can't imagine why anyone would want to put themselves in the middle of a bad relationship. It will only make things worse for all involved. Loki has mentioned that the woman he is interested in has a family and kids. While we are not trying to judge anyone here, we also want to say that we would (and have) walked away from this type of situation. Yes it can be hard and heartbreaking, but what else can we say? That's life...

[CallMeLoki 32]

It sounds like what Mrs. Loki has done and Loki wants to do are not swinging at all, actually. Way too much emotional stuff going on to be normal swinging, IMHO. Maybe polyamory of one sort or another, but not swinging.

 

Yes, there is some truth to this, I believe. We both feel strongly that we need a quite solid connection with the person we are going to have sex with...we need to be "friends" first. So, it's not exactly "polyamory" but it's not exactly "conventional swinging" either. I've said that many times already. We are essentially allowing each other the freedom to act on attractions, crushes, infatuations, etc....we are allowing each other to have a "temporary boyfriend" or "temporary girlfriend" and enjoy that relationship, including sex. And yes, we have agreed that we allow each other to enjoy the emotions too...enjoy the feeling of having a "crush" or "infatuation"...we just have to keepit in perspective and view it as a temporary deal. We have committed to each other that neither one of us will let it get out of hand (emotionally or any other way) for either of ourselves or the other person involved. The only term that seems to encompass that is "open marriage", I think. I allowed Sif to go spend the weekend alone with her cyber-BF with my blessing because that's what she wanted to do, and I made sure that she understood that she needs to be fair and return that consideration. And she definitely is returning it right now. I had to stretch quite a bit to feel OK with that choice of the weekend alone (I envisioned doing this together, and so did she originally)...she has really stretched for me in terms of allowing this close friend as a choice for me. (I just can't imagine Sif choosing to run off with a 22 year old unemployed recent college grad, although I suppose stranger things have happened, so I just completely trust her to make the right choices for us...it's much more feasible for me run off with this 40 year old MILF whom I've known for 15 years, so Sif is REALLY showing me TREMENDOUS trust with this choice, and I don't intend to disappoint her. I think we are both taking a VERY mature viewpoint on it...if she chose to run off with the cyber-BF, then I don't need to be with a wife who could make a choice like that...she feels the same way, if I chose to run off with this MILF, then she really doesn't need a man who would make that choice.) So, yes I'd say this type of arrangement requires actively demonstrating some very unselfish love, complete trust, and blatantly honest communication with each other, even moreso than traditional swinging where you're both in the same room at the same time. Luckily, we have all three of those things, or this simply would not work.

 

Loki

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

Here you admit to realizing that if this woman, a person you call your friend, was a happily married woman there would be no way she'd even consider playing with you...or doing any swinging!

 

You are right on one thing, you're a selfish man. And if your woman "friend" ever read this thread I doubt she'd want to be your friend any longer.

 

You are taking advantage of her in the worst way; she's in a bad marriage and women in bad marriages are targets for guys like you.

 

LM

 

 

Here's wifey. The one who was supposed to be dead in a crawlspace from fucking her 22 year old cyber-lover, but hey I am still alive and kicking, LOL!

 

I know Loki came here for advice, and we appreciate yours. I just want to clarify...He is NOT selfish. In fact, he agonized over this choice. I was against it, and pointed out to him many of this things that you fine people here said, i.e., She is married. He should know. He's our friend, too, no matter what an ass he has become, what about the kids. I put much thought into it, and decided that he deserved to make his choice, and that I will support him in that choice. What exactly do you mean by a "guy like you'? My husband is caring, sensitive, sweet, thoughtful, kind, polite, and unselfish. I do not have blinders on. I know him. He has many flaws, but being a predator, as you have alluded to is not one of them. He asked a question of a woman he cares about. So what? I would like you to kind of back off on the stereotyping, please. If you do not agree, fine, and we accept that, but avoid characterizing him. If she was in a good marriage he would have asked. And not because her husband bugs me to fuck him, but because she is a choice he wants to start with.......He is not asking her simply because her marriage is not good, a marriage SHE chooses to stay in flaws and all.......He is asking her because he loves her.....Thanks for your advice, NEXT!

[slevin 1,374]

Again, it's not my job in life to make things fair for them, though. But, I know the kind of morals this woman has...if she says "yes" to me, she's definitely got a concrete reason to say "yes"...she would say "no" if she did not. Ya with me yet?

 

And to answer an earlier question..."no" I don't think this woman would ever be a regular swinger, it would just be totally out of character for her. I think she'd go away for a weekend with me just because we've had such a long relationship and have always demonstrated to each other that we care what happens to each other, and will generally help each other in any way we reasonably can. So, ya know, even if she's says "no" for herself, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she didn't make it a point to introduce me and Sif to other women that she knows, some of which already swing.

 

Loki

 

Again, to me I don't care if she has a good reason or not. If she is married and her husband doesn't know then I'm not going to be involved with her. In fact, even if I know that her husband knows, if I get a bad feeling about the situation I'm not going to play with her. Generally if either Katrina or I get the impression that things between them aren't good then we will back away no matter what their situation is. We've done it before and we'll continue to do it. The times we have ignored that feeling have been the times we have run into drama (women running crying from the bedroom, people proposing Katrina meet them on her own when I'm out of town) It took us a few times of drama popping up before we wised up though lol.

 

As for her not being the swinging type; Katrina isn't the swinging type. Not one person who knows her would ever say she would be a swinger. In fact they would all tell you that she'd never be a swinger, she's not the type. A few people we have played with have said they can't believe she is a swinger and that was just after spending some time getting to know her. Good friend of ours who we played with confided later that they couldn't believe she was into this, they were shocked and never expected she would ever be up for swinging. It's not because she's timid about it, it's because she is such a sweet, genuine, big-hearted person; she comes across as incredibly innocent, perhaps even naive. Which is funny because she is far from naive

 

Now, I am not trying to convince you this girl will be a swinger; I am trying to point out that you can never tell who will and who won't be a swinger. Even when you know them really well you can never tell.

[CallMeLoki 32]

...He is asking her because he loves her...

 

Thanks, Sif. And just to clarify before we launch yet another string of posts with concerns over "emotional attachment" ...I love this woman AS A FRIEND (more like a "sister" than a "girlfriend"...not the same way that I love my wife, it's not the same type of deep emotional connection that Sif and I have) and there's definitely some lust thrown in there too. There's actually other women that I feel more "pure lust" for than her...but the close friend connection (truly respecting and admiring her as a person) PLUS some lust is more than enough to make her the most appealing person to me for a weekend away together. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's the best way I can think of to explain it. Sif made the choice to spend a weekend with her cyber-BF for exactly the same kinds of reasons...she knew they have fun hanging out even if no sex happened.

 

Loki

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

The theme song from Cops is now running thru my head...

Nah, folks, this is not that dramatic. He will not go psycho. We have been friends with these people for decades.

 

The bottom line is that Loki would have asked this regardless of the marital situation; he wants to do this woman. The fact that things are not going well in the marriage is just a coincidence. Her hubby spends 90% of his time in a third world country, working, and wants her to move there with the kids. She has declined many times, and he still asks. When she talks to him about problems, his answer is " Sorry you feel that way". He wants sex, but does not want to treat her with love and respect outside the bedroom. I can assure you that Loki does that to me. The hubby here has asked me to sleep with him, and god knows what he has done while on work trips. All he cares about is himself, not his kids, not his wife, not even his friends anymore. Now, I agree that he should be aware of his wife's choices sexually because they are married, but that is her deal, not Loki's. I repeat, He did not ask because the marriage is bad, he asked because he wanted to and I supported it. Cops, NAH!

[CallMeLoki 32]

The bottom line is that Loki would have asked this regardless of the marital situation...

 

Actually, ya know...I hadn't even thought of this. BUT...Sif is actually right...I WOULD have asked the question if their marriage was good rather than bad, given the same support from Sif. Now the fact that it's bad has an impact...but I honestly don't know if it makes her more likely to say "yes" or more likely to say "no". Is she too unhappy to say "no"? Is she too focused on trying to survive to say "yes?" I really don't know the answer to that. I can say that in her reply, she did say something to the effect of "I can't see how this would help our issues"...so I'd almost say that perhaps it makes her LESS likely to say "yes".

 

Let me put it differently: I asked because of where myself and Sif are in our relationship, NOT where the friend and her hubby are in their relationship.

 

Loki

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

You guys are definitely giving me some things to think about here. Thats what the price is. Will you pay ? So then for the rest of your life I guess you will always face him, knowing. I fucked your wife, and you didn't know it was me. You deserved it, we were all in on it. Isn't it the truth ? What justifies it for you guys. How would you feel if this guy Sif was with over the weekend fooled you. Thinking, I fucked your wife loki, next time you wont have the privilege knowing it was me ?

 

What if ? Really, you didn't know the guy and took a chance. Things worked out for the good so far.

 

So your saying its fair that your going to fuck his wife. But you don't want him pursuing SIF ? I think beside the fact of a really bad outcome,your being deceitfully unfair. Sif had the right to say NO. You have the right and agree that its NO between him and sif. Where is his right to say NO to you and Sif now ? You said your better than him earlier. He hit on Sif already. I'm sure in his mind he justified his intents. Now you justify yours. It doesn't make sense to me. I would have thought more of you.

 

You don't care if he knows it's you ? Your asking her to do the very things you don't like about him. I just keep thinking:rolleyes:, What an evil web we weave, when first we try to deceive.

 

Look how far and to the extremes you went to to give Sif a safe experience, because you cared. What about the jeopardy you are putting this other female in ? Can you offer her complete safety ? Not from you, but him.

 

That would be us

 

 

 

Valid indeed. All of these people could ask... And we only reply with "we were with our friends". So far the reality and truth is. They never asked us if we fucked them. Well.. one of my sons did. Even so, I was honest. He kind of thought it was cool that the single female we were with is freaking hot. Thats a whole different subject though.

 

The thing is, I didn't have to explain why I fucked someones wife behind her husbands back.

 

Thats for you, if you keep justifying this. Were just different I guess. There is nothing wrong with that. I do find it strange that you and Sif went to all the trouble to keep things drama free with her experience. Covering all the bases. Now your going into this the way you are.

 

Is finding a compatible single female that hard ? I mean you have what it takes. We play with single females that want to be with us. No drama no regrets. It seems your blinded by something here. Is convenience the reason ?

 

 

Best post so far, as far as food for thought without being judgemental. And how ironic from the same people who did not judge me on my adventure. Wine is in order.

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

But again here I have to ask: even if you've talked to the other spouse, how can you truly ever know with absolute certainty that it's OK with them? For instance, if the wife were saying "yes my hubby can play" how can you possibly know that the hubby hasn't coerced her into saying "yes"? (I'd think this is much more likely than the opposite, right? ) How can you truly know for sure? I'm not sure that you can...you just have to go on your best information, I suppose, right? (This is a sincere question, btw.)

 

Loki

 

In fairness honey, you chatted with my boytoy and told him everything was ok, that he had your blessing. How was he to know that it was true???? Do you want our friend's husband's blessing? I don't think it matters to you, and it is no one's business..........

[CallMeLoki 32]

In fairness honey, you chatted with my boytoy and told him everything was ok, that he had your blessing. How was he to know that it was true???? Do you want our friend's husband's blessing? I don't think it matters to you, and it is no one's business..........

 

Good point there...you could have signed in as me and chatted with him. I also talked to him on the phone as well...but you could have had a neighbor come do that.

 

I want him to be treated fairly (whether he deserves it or not)...but I also don't feel like it's my decision what "fair" IS in this case. That's why I've had the perspective that whatever they (the friend and her hubby) agree to is their business, not mine. And if their agreement allows her to say "yes", then that's fine with me. I can safely say that she's not a "cheater", and I wouldn't expect her to simply not tell him. I know her well enough to know that she simply can't do that...it's just not in her.

 

Loki

[slevin 1,374]

You need to decide what you consider to be fair and go with that. Generally I go by what I would expect from someone else. So, what would you expect from a friend who wanted to fuck Sif? Note, I said "a friend" and not "this friend". This couple aside, what would you expect from someone; what would make you feel respected and ok with the situation?

 

However I expect people to treat me is how I try to treat everyone else. It is up to me to make sure that any situation I am involved in *I* consider to be fair to everyone involved based on my morals and ethics. If you feel completely comfortable with fucking a girl regardless of whether her husband knows or not; leaving it up to her to ensure that the situation is fair for her relationship (or not), then go for it. There are definitely people out there who are comfortable with that sort of thing. I'd suggest that you think about how you'd approach this with someone who wasn't this couple and apply that judgment to this situation. This whole threads comes across as you justifying the situation based on the negative opinion of this guy, the positive opinion of her and your desire for this situation to happen. I get the impression that doing this with her behind is back goes against your own feelings of what is right in general.

[CallMeLoki 32]

...I get the impression that doing this with her behind his back goes against your own feelings of what is right in general.

 

You are correct. As I've said, I just couldn't do this behind his back, even though my own personal feeling is that he probably deserves it. If she says "yes" and that they've arranged it so that it's fair to him, then I'd be OK with it. However, I think I'd still worry about repercussions to her in the future, and that might make me decide "we can't" even if she said "yes, and it's arranged for fairness".

 

But then, I still have to consider that if I were a true "friend" to either one of them, I should probably be doing something that could help their marriage rather than potentially hurt it. Sometimes I really wish I just didn't have a conscience, but I do.

 

So, I've talked to Sif about it, and Monday I'm going to send her the little note saying essentially "withdrawn" and why. AND...if it's OK with her, I'm going to take him to dinner one night next week and give him a verbal ass-kicking about making the right choices where her and his family are concerned. Actually, I think he's refused marriage counseling and I think it would probably really help them, so I'm going to target getting him to agree to go to marriage counseling, I think.

 

I will say this though: this will be the last time I ever have one of these "you're screwing up" talks with him. After this, I know I'll have absolutely no sympathy left for him. If he doesn't make some kind of change for the better (which I actually doubt, unfortunately), then he gets whatever he deserves as far as I'm concerned. After this, I won't actively pursue his wife, but if she decides to fuck my brains out one night, I ain't kickin' her outta bed either.

 

My wife has always told me that everything happens for a reason, and I've grown to believe her. I can't see any "transcendental reason" behind my decisions to this point, but I'm just going to figure there must be one.

 

Let's just hope I don't change my mind by Monday.

 

Loki

[slevin 1,374]

Yeah, even my closest friends I tend to only offer my help/advice once. If they want to listen they can, if they don't then nothing I say is going to make a difference to them. Now, if they ever come to me seeking my advice/opinion I am always there for them and will do anything I can to help them out. Even if that just means listening, getting them drunk to blow off some steam and get a night out to get their mind off things. If they want real help (want a divorce, don't know what to do etc.) then I'll support them and offer them whatever they need. Continually telling them what they should be doing is like beating your head against the wall (which is how it seems you've been feeling with trying to help this guy).

 

It seems (and we've only gotten the one side of their story here) that she is the one who needs the help. She needs to make the decision to either get him working on their issues (really working, not lip service) or if she is unhappy then do something about it. Getting a divorce sounds like the right thing to do here for everyone involved. It's better for the kids, better for her and may even be better for him. Staying together for the kids doesn't work and can be even worse for the kids than their parents splitting up. But, this isn't the divorce support group, it's the swingers-and-open-marriages-lets-have-great-sex-and-maybe-friendship place, so I'll stop that train of thought now

[CallMeLoki 32]

So, what would you expect from a friend who wanted to fuck Sif? Note, I said "a friend" and not "this friend". This couple aside, what would you expect from someone; what would make you feel respected and ok with the situation?

 

However I expect people to treat me is how I try to treat everyone else.

 

I would expect that friend to just come out with it and ask me. And yes, I generally try to live by the rule of "treat others as you'd like to be treated". I guess I'm letting the perceived injustice and unfairness injected into the picture interfere with that directive.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

OK, quick update here. I just chatted with my female friend for quite a while about all of this. A few points to confirm things I said above:

 

- She wouldn't even think about doing something like this behind his back or without some kind of agreement between them that makes it fair. I didn't even have to mention this...her perspective on the issues she'd expect told me what she was thinking.

 

- I think she's curious about it all, but doesn't want to take any kind of step because she thinks it would just create more chaos in her marriage. I could have easily told her that he'd very likely say "Go for it, as long as I get to do the same", but I chose not to. The reality is that even him saying "fine with me" probably WOULD create chaos for them. It might ultimately end up in him putting more effort into his marriage, or it might end up in divorce, who knows.

 

- She wasn't feeling troubled at all about me asking. This is good, I was worried about that part.

 

So, I'm going to consider this as a "soft no", although I kinda get the feeling that she is "undecided". The reality is that I could probably convince her, but I wouldn't think of trying. And she might change her mind on her own some time in the future, but I'm not going to sit around and wait for that to happen. She's "conditioned" by her upbringing, etc., to not be "too kinky", so that would be a leap for her. But, she seems very curious about it too, and wants to talk more to me and my wife about it, which we'll both do. She wants to know about Sif's experience and what that changed for us if anything.

 

So, there ya go, folks. I'm making the right choice. She's making the right choice.

 

Loki

[mixtupcpl 169]

A happy ending!!!

 

So what about Sif's experience? Did it change anything?

[BiloxiCouple 695]

Even a "soft" no means no.

 

You ought to invite her here to read this thread.

[mixtupcpl 169]

Even a "soft" no means no.

 

You ought to invite her here to read this thread.

 

Now THAT is an interesting idea!! I would love to hear her perspective on all of this directly.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Actually, I might do that. My only hesitation is that some of what I've written about her hubby might influence her to go off with me, and I'd kinda feel like that's an unfair advantage that I have. If she decided to go off with me, I'd want it to be because she wants to, not because she feels like getting even. (Of course, this person usually doesn't have those types of urges anyway, which is one of the reasons I think so highly of her.)

 

This thread would also give her details on Sif's experience, and Sif got quite upset at me because she felt like I alluded to the fact that she'd already had an encounter in my chat with my friend today. I felt like it was a couple of very neutral statements that didn't indicate yes or no, Sif didn't agree. Which brings up a fairness issue to me, but I won't go into that here. I may have to tell someone I'm pursuing that my wife has already had encounters, so they'll understand that it's fair to her...she's certainly discussed this friend of mine with her cyber-BF. We agreed in writing to treat each other with complete fairness, and I don't feel like I'm getting that right now (especially since I've told her "go ahead" on a 2nd encounter while I'm still looking for my first). Sif and I have an issue to work out before anything else can occur for either of us in my opinion.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

OK, possible playmate for me right under my nose, so to speak. There's a woman about my age whom I worked with 10 years or so ago. She was married then. We both ended up at a different company several years ago, but in different groups. When I first joined our current employer, she had gotten divorced and was looking much better than I'd seen her before. Apparently dumping her hubby (who was a quite a jerk) was a good thing for her. We've kept in touch and had lunch a few times.

 

I recently ran into her at a concert. Ouch. She was looking better than I've seen her in years. And she told me the same thing. We got to talking over chat, she has two daughters that she wants to focus on, and essentially she's looking for a "friend with benefits". So, I had thought about her for myself, then said "Nah, we have to work together sometimes." So, I tried to fix her and my best guy friend who's single up. He wasn't interested.

 

So her and I have ended up chatting a few times over the past month. Each time we start off about business, end up talking about our personal lives, then the topic always seems to drift to sex. Darn. My wife invited her to my birthday party a few weeks ago, and her and I ended up doing some pretty dirty dancing with each other. There's some lust there on both sides.

 

So, the other day we were chatting about her finding a man using one of the online dating sites. I made the statement that "I think that women who are looking for sex only will make it pretty clear that's what they want." She immediately responded "I want a 30-something for a physical relationship with no emotional attachment". Now, I wouldn't have thought that perhaps her comment was intentionally directed right at me since I'm 42, but she responded quite immediately AND she had previously told me "I can't believe you're 42...you look 30-something". She's already told me that she doesn't usually have the balls to just go up to a man and start talking to him or asking him out...she waits for the man to "make the move" so to speak. I think she's giving me a pretty obvious hint here. I made a joke once about "my wife and I let each other have a little fun", to which she immediately replied "if you mean what I think you mean, just be careful", so I think she has picked up on the vibe that we might have an open marriage or allow each other to play.

 

She's a pretty hot lady. She's very emotionally mature, and she's quite picky about who she sees (had one "boyfriend" for several years after she got divorced, and she cut him loose because he was getting too emotionally attached, as I understand it). We're looking for the same thing sounds like. We've been casual friends for a long time. She's divorced, so no strings there. We apparently even have some of the same habits (like going parking just for the hell of it!). She seems quite open to talking about sex and doesn't seem to have many inhibitions from what she says.

 

So, I'm thinking I'd be an idiot if I don't seize this opportunity. I've got Sif's approval, she's actually always liked her too. Her and I work on the same team, but we are both in field positions so it's not like we see each other at an office everyday. I'm pretty certain she is emotionally mature enough to not develop any unintended attachments and can just enjoy the fun of the experience. She's disconnected from Sif and I in every way except for my work, so this feels like it would be pretty low impact if anything went a little wrong. I'm going to invite her out for some drinks as soon as I can, possibly tommorrow night, and just tell her what I have in mind. Wish me luck (or would that be "lust" ), folks!

 

Loki

[Alura 2,774]

Good lust, Loki!

 

She sounds like a much better choice than the married lady. We'll look forward to hearing about your conversation.

 

Mr. Alura

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

She's disconnected from Sif and I in every way except for my work, so this feels like it would be pretty low impact if anything went a little wrong. I'm going to invite her out for some drinks as soon as I can, possibly tommorrow night, and just tell her what I have in mind. Wish me luck (or would that be "lust" ), folks!

 

Two rules I've seen repeated here: "Don't get your honey where you get your money" and "don't dip your pen in the company ink"

 

You work with this person and you don't see much impact if things can go wrong? Would you be 100% comfortable with losing your job? That's one of the potential outcomes of this.

 

I really don't mean to be harsh, but it seems like you keep picking the situations that could lead to the most harm. It's like some part of your brain is looking up the most dangerous potential situations someone in an open marriage could find, and then you're going out and finding just that.

 

If you don't mind losing your job, that's your business. But, when it happens don't say you weren't warned. And yes, it can happen even if she never says word one.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Two rules I've seen repeated here: "Don't get your honey where you get your money" and "don't dip your pen in the company ink"

 

You work with this person and you don't see much impact if things can go wrong? Would you be 100% comfortable with losing your job? That's one of the potential outcomes of this.

 

I really don't mean to be harsh, but it seems like you keep picking the situations that could lead to the most harm. It's like some part of your brain is looking up the most dangerous potential situations someone in an open marriage could find, and then you're going out and finding just that.

 

If you don't mind losing your job, that's your business. But, when it happens don't say you weren't warned. And yes, it can happen even if she never says word one.

 

I really appreciate your concern, but I can judge situations and people pretty well. She's a quite reasonable woman whom I've known for a long time. I won't get fired for talking with her about it because she would just say "let's do it" or "I dunno, maybe we shouldn't?". It's not like she'll file a sexual harrassment report to HR for me bringing it up...she's volunteered more about her sex life than I've asked. She thinks carefully about her relationships with people (family, friends, co-workers, FWB's, etc.), so if anything started to feel a little sour, we'd both just agree that we should stop...we'd go into it with that kind of mindset. She's level-headed and makes well considered decisions.

 

I guess one of the differences between you and I is that I'm only considering women whom I actually trust (or at least at this point). If you consider strangers, folks off AFF and other sites, or folks you met a few weeks ago at a swinger party, then yeah, you need a lot more protective mechanism's in place. You don't know anything about their long-term character. The women I'm favoring are one's where I know some details about their long-term character.

 

And btw...people told me the same thing when I was dating my wife..."don't get your meat where you get your bread". We met at work.

 

But, this brings up a pretty good question...can the average population not fuck someone without falling "in love" with them and creating all sorts of drama?

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

Please read the last part of my post where I said "And yes, it can happen even if she never says word one." HER reaction is only one part of what your concerns should be. Even if the two of you are perfectly happy in this relationship, even if both of you find no problems with each other or work or anything else, even if you remain perfect saints to each other, this can STILL blow up in your face.

 

Equating this to meeting your wife at work is not a valid analogy. This is an ENTIRELY different situation.

 

The difference here isn't whom I trust or not. There's plenty of beautiful women at my workplace. There's plenty of them that I would trust absolutely. There's plenty of them that are single, available, and possibly willing. The difference here is that I actively choose not to endanger the welfare of my family by significantly increasing the risk that I could lose my job by having a sexual affair with a co-worker.

 

You can't tell me that there's just no other woman out there in the world with whom you could have a sexual affair, and that damn if I'm going to do this it HAS to be her. Is losing your job over this worth it to you? You have a daughter at home who is depending on you to bring home a paycheck. Are you willing to risk that?

 

That's the risk you're taking. It's not about trusting this woman. In fact, it has very little to do with your trust in her. Both in this situation and in the situation with the married woman, you have seemed to look only so far as the immediate affect on you and her. These sorts of situations ALWAYS have a larger scope than that.

[CallMeLoki 32]

...Even if the two of you are perfectly happy in this relationship, even if both of you find no problems with each other or work or anything else, even if you remain perfect saints to each other, this can STILL blow up in your face.

...

 

I'm listening to your concerns...substantiate, please. In what possible ways could this blow up in my face if her and I have no issues and we keep it descrete from everyone else? I can do whatever I choose in my personal life...that's none of my employer's business. If I choose to do it with a friend from work, that's none of my employer's business.

 

Loki

[Alura 2,774]

You're right of course, Bbarnsworth. There are many possible problems.

 

I have trouble chastising someone for "...getting his honey where he gets his money" because that's exactly where Mrs. Alura and I found each other. We worked for the same company but in different divisions. In fact, I was a vice president and she was a retail store manager. Although i didn't directly supervise her, I was "up the corporate ladder."

 

I broke three rules I had lived by for years the first evening I had dinner with Laura. They were:

 

1. Never have sex with a company employee,

 

2. Never have sex with a married woman, (Although divorce was planned in the next weeks and her husband was to return to America alone, she was still legally married.) and,

 

3. Avoid younger women; they're immature and dangerous.

 

I've never been sorry.

 

Mr. Alura

[slevin 1,374]

Is it impossible to meet women you don't already know and who aren't connected to you and your wife? Is it impossible to create a connection with those women the same way you have with the women you already know?

[CallMeLoki 32]

Is it impossible to meet women you don't already know and who aren't connected to you and your wife? Is it impossible to create a connection with those women the same way you have with the women you already know?

 

No, of course not! Most women I meet tend to like me quite a bit. I seem to befriend women quite easily. But that happens IN PERSON and NOT in the bar scene where everyone has their "game on"...that's the challenge for me.

 

I've been periodically searching/emailing ladies from sites like SLS, AFF, Fling.com, etc. But, believe it or not...a lot of those women come across as "cheating wives"...(say it isn't so, right? ) I had an email conversation last week with a lady from SLS who was a "swinger" who swings alone and requires complete descretion, apparently even from her hubby. But she's a "swinger" so she should be OK, right? Not the impression I got.

 

Overall, I haven't gotten much response from most of the online hook-up sites...which is to be expected, I'm competing against all the men who want to get laid.

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

CallMeLoki said:

I'm listening to your concerns...substantiate, please. In what possible ways could this blow up in my face if her and I have no issues and we keep it descrete from everyone else? I can do whatever I choose in my personal life...that's none of my employer's business. If I choose to do it with a friend from work, that's none of my employer's business.

 

Loki

 

YOUR stance on whether it's your personal life and whether it should have an effect on your job is beside the point. Employers have a habit of butting their heads in where they don't belong. Plenty of people have lost jobs because their employers found out they engaged in less than 'normal' behaviors out side of their jobs. It really doesn't matter what YOU think of the activity. It most emphatically does matter what THEY think.

 

Continuing this by respond to something Alura said...

 

Alura said:

You're right of course, Bbarnsworth. There are many possible problems.

 

I have trouble chastising someone for "...getting his honey where he gets his money" because that's exactly where Mrs. Alura and I found each other.

 

Having a sexual affair with someone when your employer knows you are married (and even more so with children) is considerably different than two single people at a company dating. In fact, it's radically different.

 

All one has to do to see the difference is to see the hate and derision heaped upon swingers by the vanilla world, the attempts at shutting down clubs (see Current Swingers in the News - The Swingers Board for just a small sampling of some of that) and more.

 

Two single people dating is 'normal' and 'natural'. Two people screwing each other when one is married with children at home is very fertile ground for gossip. All it takes is a single screw up, or someone suspecting something, and you could be toast (and her too).

 

Can you guarantee nobody would ever see the two of you in public together? Can you guarantee people at work would never see a certain chemistry between you two, a smile, a gesture? Etc..etc...etc...

 

Maybe you like risking your job for this. Not me. I guess that's the difference.

[slevin 1,374]

No, of course not! Most women I meet tend to like me quite a bit. I seem to befriend women quite easily. But that happens IN PERSON and NOT in the bar scene where everyone has their "game on"...that's the challenge for me.

 

I've been periodically searching/emailing ladies from sites like SLS, AFF, Fling.com, etc. But, believe it or not...a lot of those women come across as "cheating wives"...(say it isn't so, right? ) I had an email conversation last week with a lady from SLS who was a "swinger" who swings alone and requires complete descretion, apparently even from her hubby. But she's a "swinger" so she should be OK, right? Not the impression I got.

 

Overall, I haven't gotten much response from most of the online hook-up sites...which is to be expected, I'm competing against all the men who want to get laid.

 

Loki

 

Totally! There is a lot to think about here eh? It's amazing to me that any of us have time to even work when we're first getting started with swinging lol, fortunately it starts to get easier (it did for us anyway)

 

A few different topics you covered there so I hope my responses don't get too disjointed!

 

First of all, I hate the bar scene too; it's just not my thing and I don't have fun in that kind of scene. There is absolutely no reason why you need to meet women in that kind of environment. Would you be surprised if I told you it's actually a more difficult to meet and pickup women? During the day at a place like Starbucks is actually a lot easier; there is no loud music making talking difficult, there are no other guys walking around hitting on women, women aren't expecting to be hit on so they generally don't have their guard up, no one is drunk (or at least I hope not) and for most people they're more comfortable and relaxed during the day which makes interacting with women easier. You say that women connect with you quickly and easily, that is a damn wicked place to start

 

Online is tough for a married guy looking for a single woman; the girls that don't just assume you are a cheater are going to be fairly slim, all those single girls are getting inundated with email from men, women and couples and the married women looking for play on their own...well there isn't as much of that going on. Not a great spot for you, far better possibilities out at Starbucks. Definitely don't put up with cheaters, whether it's a guy or a girl. We've been contacted by some 'single' women that were hot and totally our type of girl. As soon as they came clean that they were cheating that was the end for us, no more contact at all. We're not interested in that.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Can you guarantee nobody would ever see the two of you in public together? Can you guarantee people at work would never see a certain chemistry between you two, a smile, a gesture? Etc..etc...etc...

 

Nope, can't guarantee any of it. Guess what? There's 350K+ employees at this company spread over most of the planet...nobody gives a shit who fucks who as long as the work gets done and no one is sexually harrassed.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Two single people dating is 'normal' and 'natural'. Two people screwing each other when one is married with children at home is very fertile ground for gossip. All it takes is a single screw up, or someone suspecting something, and you could be toast (and her too).

 

OK, let me ask this: this woman has very much a "swinger mentality". (And she's probably not registered on one of the swinger sites either because she hasn't thought of it or doesn't need to be.) So, how about if I ask her to sign up on SLS, and her and I pretend we hooked up there? That should make it OK, since it was done through "the lifestyle", right?

 

Dude, I have the feeling that if I popped up and said I'd found a hot lay on SLS and had known her well for 20 years and had even done a background check on her and everything was ligit, that you would still find something to shoot down. Knock yourself out, it's becoming entertaining. When I'm fired for fucking a co-worker, I'll just go join Sif in her crawlspace (you know, the one where she was stuffed after being murdered by her cyber-BF ).

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Online is tough for a married guy looking for a single woman; the girls that don't just assume you are a cheater are going to be fairly slim, all those single girls are getting inundated with email from men, women and couples and the married women looking for play on their own...well there isn't as much of that going on. Not a great spot for you, far better possibilities out at Starbucks. Definitely don't put up with cheaters, whether it's a guy or a girl. We've been contacted by some 'single' women that were hot and totally our type of girl. As soon as they came clean that they were cheating that was the end for us, no more contact at all. We're not interested in that.

 

Yes, it seems to be! I'm starting to wonder if I just have to pretend to be a cheater or single to get any responses. I'm not a cheater and I wouldn't want to deal with a cheater (and just for the record, the married female best friend that I approached earlier isn't a cheater either...just in case anyone needed to be clarified on that).

 

A coffee shop sounds like a good idea. Maybe bookstores too. Actually, how about both in the same place. Where else do women hang out? Hmm...

 

I enjoy taking my daughter to kids' birthday parties, I'm usually the only dad there. I've met one divorcee through my 1st grader (and she's a hottie)...but I think my wife would kill me if I hit her up! "Oh shit, what if she tells the other parents? :eek:"

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

No, of course not! Most women I meet tend to like me quite a bit. I seem to befriend women quite easily.

 

That being the case, you shouldn't have any problems finding other women than this co-worker of yours for what you intend.

 

What happened to the waitress?

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

OK, let me ask this: this woman has very much a "swinger mentality". (And she's probably not registered on one of the swinger sites either because she hasn't thought of it or doesn't need to be.) So, how about if I ask her to sign up on SLS, and her and I pretend we hooked up there? That should make it OK right, since it was done through "the lifestyle"?

 

No, since the corporate execs who would find a reason to fire you wouldn't care how you met her. The fact of the matter is that you would be having a sexual affair with another employee when you're married with a child at home. That would be plenty enough motivation for many companies to toss you on the sidewalk.

 

Companies in this country don't need a reason to fire you. Giving them a reason to fire you is just asking for trouble.

 

 

Dude, I have the feeling that if I popped up and said I'd found a hot lay on SLS and had known her well for 20 years and had even done a background check on her and everything was ligit, that you would still find something to shoot down.

 

Absolutely not. I'd pop a cork, and toast your success. You think I'm against people having sex outside their marriage? Why do you think I'm on this board then, and have made over 200 posts, because I'm against swinging?

 

You know the reason people are posting comments not in support of what you're doing? Because in as much as we can care about someone over the net whom we've never met, plus their families, we care about you and your family and don't want to see you screw up. We aren't out to get you, we aren't out to stop you from having sex outside your marriage or anything the like. We just see a significant number of behaviors or planned behaviors that are highly risky.

 

Swinging with someone from your workplace is one of the biggest no-nos you can do. And no, it's not the same as finding your wife at your workplace. But, you seem bent on ignoring that advice. Oh well.

[CallMeLoki 32]

What happened to the waitress?

 

Good and fair question. I saw her at dinner the other night, and she probably spent 20 minutes or so just talking to me. Both me, my wife, and us both have invited her to come have some drinks, hang out, hot tub with us, go out with us, whatever, several times. There's some attraction there, and she likes my wife too (I really think she'd be threesome material ), but she has a live-in boyfriend (which makes her not a good choice anyway...I don't know anything about him, he could show up with a shotgun one day from just finding our cel phone numbers for that matter). I gather that she's keeping a safe distance because she's probably figured out that we might be up to some mischief...that's respectable, she's being "good" for her BF, I can't find any fault with that. She has both our cel phone numbers, so she knows where to find us if she wants us.

 

I did suggest that Sif ask her if she might come take some erotic pictures of the both of us (of course hoping she'd get turned on enough that she couldn't help but join us ), but I don't think Sif ever did.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

 

Absolutely not. I'd pop a cork, and toast your success. You think I'm against people having sex outside their marriage? Why do you think I'm on this board then, and have made over 200 posts, because I'm against swinging?

 

You know the reason people are posting comments not in support of what you're doing? Because in as much as we can care about someone over the net whom we've never met, plus their families, we care about you and your family and don't want to see you screw up. We aren't out to get you, we aren't out to stop you from having sex outside your marriage or anything the like. We just see a significant number of behaviors or planned behaviors that are highly risky.

 

 

OK, fair enough. I retract my sarcastic comment.

 

Yes, Sif and I both understand that there is risk involved in what we're doing. And actually, I guess you could say I'm trading one risk for others, actually. For instance, I've no doubt that neither this co-worker nor the female best friend that I previously talked to have any STD's. (And if they did, they are both the kind of people who would tell me before anything transpired.) So, there's zero risk there. (And actually if I had to choose between losing my job and catching an STD, I'd rather to lose my job.) You can't say that about someone you met 2 weeks ago on a hookup site or a swinger party, now can you?

 

So, any way that you have sex with someone outside of your marriage is going to involve risks. We are considering the risks and making the choices that fit us best. Sorry, I know you don't agree with our approach, but we're doing this the way that we believe fits us best.

 

And no, I obviously don't think you are against people having extramarital sex. I think you are against anyone having extramarital sex differently from how you do it. You are entitled to your opinions and personal choices, and I respect that. However, when I read all the problems on this site that "conventional swingers" have had, I really have to question if the rules are as effective as you'd like to think they are. And maybe they are effective FOR YOU and YOUR WIFE, but that obviously doesn't mean they are just as effective for everyone else, as evidenced by this site. To some extent, you just have to find what works for you. That's what Sif and I are doing.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Hey folks:

 

I thought I'd post an update, since it's been a bit. The co-worker and I did talk just a bit about possibly hooking up. Sif chatted with her a bit and gave her PTF (permission to fuck ). The work thing doesn't concern her either...the thing that's off-limits for her is the fact that I'm married, one of her hard and fast rules regardless of the situation. Apparently, she had some really bad experience with her hubby once...he encouraged her to experiment with another guy (as I gather), then went nuts and almost killed the guy. I gather it was quite a traumatic experience for her, as I can certainly imagine. Jeez. Given the 3-4 times I was around him when they were married, I can actually believe that. So, her answer is "no" because I have a wife. But, she did come back and ask me a few questions. We are both at a conference in Vegas in two weeks...so if she changes her mind while we're in Vegas, I'm game. If she doesn't, that's fine too.

 

I've been going out the past few weekends, hitting some of the bars, being a little extra flirty anywhere I go during the day, etc. I've met a few ladies who might be possibilities. One chick in a bar was telling me about how she might dump her boyfriend, I told her I was married but in an open relationship, she said "Oh, cool!"...then asked me if I would be at the same bar the next night. Regardless, I've made a few new acquaintances and come home with one phone number so far (although I don't know if the phone number giver is open to my kind of arrangement...I'll ask and see what she says).

 

I also made it back to the nicer strip bar in town. There was a stripper there who told me she was married but both open, and looking for a playmate for herself earlier in the year. She had given me her phone number before, but Sif had gotten a little miffed at me over me giving her our phone number (this was before we had actually concretely decided to do any of this in reality rather than just fantasizing), so I threw her number away. Saw her last night, and just asked her if she was still looking for a playmate...she said "yes I am" and gave me her phone number again. She's a very cute woman...I'll definitely be calling her.

 

I also ended up with another stripper sitting in my lap and talking for quite a while. Stripper #2 is very intelligent and well-spoken, gives a hot as hell lap dance, single, is working on a master's degree, and her and I have another couple of connection points as well (we both have a schizophrenic family member!) Funny...stripper #1 came to see me after she finished in the champagne lounge while stripper #2 was sitting in my lap, and they fought over me just a little...stripper #1 asked her to get out of my lap, and stripper #2 said no, and they actually exchanged a few snotty words with each other. Damn...I don't recall ever having two women fight over me before. Needless to say, I also came home with stripper #2's email address. She said she isn't open to my kind of arrangement, but she answers so very quickly that it seems like a pre-thought pre-planned response to me...we agreed to be "friends". I could see her changing her mind, who knows. She did sit in my lap and talk for quite a while with no pay, and she did give me her email address.

 

I have to say, I'm actually having quite a blast with the whole chase/pursuit part of this experience. Sif, in all her awesomeness as my lovely wife, is just allowing me to go out and act single with her full permission. (Thank you, Sif!) I have to admit, I'm one lucky bastard! Of course, she's a lucky woman too though...her cyber-BF is coming here next weekend, I'm giving them more alone time, and we'll try a threesome with her BF if he's feeling comfortable with it (a lot of which I think is up to me...the comfort level, I mean). I have to admit, I'm enjoying our hedonistic choices right now.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

I thought I'd post another update. The stripper who's looking for a playmate and I have a lunch date just to talk today. (She lives in the same area...about 10 minutes away or so). She's married with a child also, so her and I need to talk about boundaries, etc. I make it a point to treat women like ladies, so I'm picking her up and taking her to lunch somewhere nice. I gather her schedule is very booked up for the next month or two between work, school, holidays, and her family, so we'll see how this all pans out.

 

There's a lady I've been talking to that I met from one of the legitimate dating sites (not a "hook-up" site). She's divorced with teenage kids. We've talked on the phone several times, and seem to have quite a bit of chemistry, at least personality-wise...can't stop laughing when we're on the phone, actually. I've told her my deal...in an open marriage. She's also confessed that she's mainly looking for a "friend with benefits", and she's totally hip to sharing an open-married guy, doesn't bother her at all (in fact, she said "This is cool..I get the good stuff without having to pick up your dirty underwear"...LOL...great sense of humor!) She sure seems to be quite open sexually...she gave her ex-husband a threesome with another lady once as a surprise! I'm liking this lady. She sent me some pics that weren't great quality (scanned)...but she looks like quite an attractive woman, and her personality certainly is attractive. Her and I are meeting for some drinks somewhere tonight just to meet face-to-face. (She's about 20 - 30 minutes away or so, but that's still an easy drive to get together.) If that goes well, we have a tentative date Saturday night.

 

Sif's young boyfriend is coming to stay with us this weekend (which is cool, first time I'll have met him face-to-face). Sif and he will have some alone time while I'm taking our daughter to an event with some other parents/friends, then our daughter is headed for a sleepover while the three of us are heading to a quite heavy small concert Fri night (and I'm hoping there will be quite a few gothic hotties wandering around ). Then, the three of us have a "date" Sat night (our daughter has another sleepover...darn!), and the new friend I'm meeting for drinks tonight might be joining us (or her and I might go off alone for a while and then meet-up with my wife and her boyfriend later). Who knows, my new friend might decide to pack an overnight bag...we'll see. "Honey, I think the neighbors are swingers."

 

I think it could be quite comical to have all four of us at dinner together. I just imagine a jaw-droppingly funny introduction now..."Hi, this is my wife, this is my girlfriend, and this is my wife's boyfriend." This all feels so strange to me, but I'm certainly having fun with it. What the hell? Life is short, right?

 

Then...I'm heading off to a conference in Vegas Sun...and I'll try to get into as much mischief there as I possibly can.

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

I thought I'd post another update. The stripper who's looking for a playmate and I have a lunch date just to talk today. (She lives in the same area...about 10 minutes away or so). She's married with a child also, so her and I need to talk about boundaries, etc. I make it a point to treat women like ladies, so I'm picking her up and taking her to lunch somewhere nice. I gather her schedule is very booked up for the next month or two between work, school, holidays, and her family, so we'll see how this all pans out.

 

Everything else you wrote after this sounds more or less fine, but the red flags popped up on this one again. She's married, with kid. Does her husband know, approve, encourage? Willing to talk to him to find out?

[slevin 1,374]

Everything else you wrote after this sounds more or less fine, but the red flags popped up on this one again. She's married, with kid. Does her husband know, approve, encourage? Willing to talk to him to find out?

 

I think he indicated at some point that this stripper has an open relationship, but looking to confirm it with the husband is a good idea.

 

One word of caution when dealing with strippers though is that they are quite adept at liberating money from guys/couples. Even in the form of free lunches and dinners. I'm not trying to discourage you from seeing her or anything like that, but where you mentioned that she is very busy for the next month but wants to get together to talk about things raises my stripper-radar just a tad. Just keep an eye on it, if she seems to always be up for lunch or dinner (or you coming by the club for some dances), but never seems to be able to find the time to meet off the clock for some sexual fun then rethink it. If she's all on board and doesn't waste your time (but is busy for the next month) then all ahead full.

 

Again, not a caution to not pursue this with her. Just a caution about how strippers tend to operate. They are ridiculously good at making guys feel like either she is different from all the other strippers or that you are different from all the other customers. Things with her sounded good until the "I'm too busy, but lets have lunch", so keep an eye out

 

Oh, and from here on out, if you are ever at the strip club and she is there...don't buy any dances.