Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[CallMeLoki 32]

Everything else you wrote after this sounds more or less fine, but the red flags popped up on this one again. She's married, with kid. Does her husband know, approve, encourage? Willing to talk to him to find out?

 

I've asked that question, and she answered yes the hubby knows and approves (in fact, she volunteered earlier in the year that they had an open relationship). She said he knew we were having lunch today, for instance. I asked if he allows her to play alone, and she said "yes, but we have a don't tell/don't ask policy". I'm not sure if she meant "we don't share all the intimate details" or she meant "we don't share that we've had any action at all". I'd assume she means they don't share details, but that's an open question. This might be one of those cases where I do need to talk to the hubby to just validate that what she's saying is true. My gut feel here is that something might not be quite right, but I could be wrong. We'll see.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

I think he indicated at some point that this stripper has an open relationship, but looking to confirm it with the husband is a good idea.

 

One word of caution when dealing with strippers though is that they are quite adept at liberating money from guys/couples. Even in the form of free lunches and dinners. I'm not trying to discourage you from seeing her or anything like that, but where you mentioned that she is very busy for the next month but wants to get together to talk about things raises my stripper-radar just a tad. Just keep an eye on it, if she seems to always be up for lunch or dinner (or you coming by the club for some dances), but never seems to be able to find the time to meet off the clock for some sexual fun then rethink it. If she's all on board and doesn't waste your time (but is busy for the next month) then all ahead full.

 

Again, not a caution to not pursue this with her. Just a caution about how strippers tend to operate. They are ridiculously good at making guys feel like either she is different from all the other strippers or that you are different from all the other customers. Things with her sounded good until the "I'm too busy, but lets have lunch", so keep an eye out

 

Oh, and from here on out, if you are ever at the strip club and she is there...don't buy any dances.

 

Points taken and much appreciated slevin!

 

Very good point here. She mentioned that her hubby manages their money and her phone book. It struck me that her angle could possibly be "pay-to-lay" rather than just having some sexual fun off the clock. I don't know if that's her angle, but time will tell. I actually don't mind buying her lunch a time or two...I'd do the same for any friend actually, so that's not such a big deal.

 

Yeah, I was thinking of not buying any dances from her at the club either. She does keep telling me what nights she's at the club, and to come out and "see her". Plus, there's another young lady there at the club who I'd love to get to know a bit too.

 

I'm quite looking forward to my "drinks date" tonight with the lady I met from the dating site. My gut feel says she's for real without any red flags, or at least none that I can detect yet.

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

I'm quite looking forward to my "drinks date" tonight with the lady I met from the dating site. My gut feel says she's for real without any red flags, or at least none that I can detect yet.

 

Loki

 

This one seems considerably safer than the scenarios with the strippers.

 

Your gut feel says there's something not quite right with the stripper in the open marriage. There's a good chance you're right. I'd try asking her if it would be ok to talk to her husband, and see how she responds.

[slevin 1,374]

Yeah, I was thinking of not buying any dances from her at the club either. She does keep telling me what nights she's at the club, and to come out and "see her". Plus, there's another young lady there at the club who I'd love to get to know a bit too.

 

When it comes to picking up strippers, never buy any dances from them. The minute you buy a dance you become a customer and her focus is on extracting money from you. The best way to pick them up is to show them that you're a part of their world, an insider; be buddies with the DJ, talk to the bouncers, befriend the manager, never buy dances, understand the life of a dancer. Don't ever take her flirtations or her touching you or her compliments as being for real (inside the club, but sometimes outside of it as well). Never buy her drinks either.

 

There is a whole lot more to say about it, but the long and short is that picking up strippers is not a good place to start. It's a bit of a specialized skill that, to be honest, isn't necessarily desirable to have. It is a stereotype, but well earned one, that strippers tend to have issues whether it's drugs, behavioural or that they are just purely after your money. I've spent a lot of time around dancers and the number of them that didn't have some kind of issue is very small (serious issue, we all have issues but most of us they're minor). Almost always lots of drama involved in fucking/dating a stripper; enough so that I wouldn't pick women up there and won't involve a dancer in our sex life.

 

Just trying to impart my experience here, especially since you were already picking up a few things that gave you pause to think about the situation with her already.

 

The thing with the online girl sounds great, have fun with her

[CallMeLoki 32]

Thanks for the advice on the stripper side of the world. Sounds like good warnings to me.

 

So...my date last night was a bit of a bust. The lady has a wonderfully funny personality, she's after an FWB, and her pics indicated she was a quite a hottie. But, meeting in person revealed that she wasn't quite as fit now as she was in the pics (to the tune of 50-60 lbs or so...supposedly the pics were only a year or so old). Hmm...I hate to sound shallow here, but I think it's reasonable to desire a playmate who's within the same realm of fitness that I am, right? Man, it's a really a shame...physically AND personality-wise, she'd just be totally gorgeous minus about 50 lbs!

 

I'm glad I set the initial expectation of "let's just be friends, and see where that leads us". I made it a point to treat her like she still looked just like her pics...she's got such a great personality, I couldn't bring myself to hurt her feelings. It's not like we don't all have our flaws, right?

 

BD

[slevin 1,374]

Bummer! That is one thing I will never understand; we all want to put our best foot forward in online profiles, but posting pictures that you know are not accurate is just dumb. It's going to come out eventually and as much as I like to believe that I'm not shallow, if there is no physical attraction then it's just not going to happen. Also, people not being honest just bugs me and posting pictures of when you were 60lbs lighter is definitely not being honest.

 

Hell, Katrina gets worried if I post a picture that was her 5lbs lighter, or when she had a different hair colour!

 

The search continues eh? lol

[CallMeLoki 32]

Bummer! That is one thing I will never understand; we all want to put our best foot forward in online profiles, but posting pictures that you know are not accurate is just dumb. It's going to come out eventually and as much as I like to believe that I'm not shallow, if there is no physical attraction then it's just not going to happen. Also, people not being honest just bugs me and posting pictures of when you were 60lbs lighter is definitely not being honest.

 

The search continues eh? lol

 

Well, I can't find too much fault with her...the folks on this dating site *expect* you to be single, and I'm not (although I have permission to *act single*, I'm actually married). I didn't specifically say in my profile that I'm married and looking for a playmate...I did word it in a way that a lady would get that I'm looking for a non-commital "friend with benefits" type of relationship (I said "I'm not looking for a wife, nor am I looking for a one-night stand...I'm looking for a lady friend who knows how to have fun and enjoy the moment" or something along those lines...it will scream "friend with benefits" to someone looking for the same thing, I believe.)

 

I'm surprised though...most women seem to take it pretty well when I tell them I'm married but in an open marriage. One or two have been totally put off by it, but many don't seem too taken aback by it. I do see to get more ladies willing to talk to me by taking my ring off though...I'm not sure how I feel about that part. I'd rather leave it on and not hide anything. But then, like you said Slevin...everyone hides at least something. It seems reasonable to me to make the fact that I'm married but able to "act single" something that I reveal after a few conversations but before anything like a date or sex. Thoughts?

 

Loki

[BiloxiCouple 695]

Just white lies. What can it hurt?

 

https://www.swingersboard.com/forums/topic/32697-little-white-lies/

[CallMeLoki 32]

BiloxiCouple said:

Just white lies. What can it hurt?

 

https://www.swingersboard.com/forums/topic/32697-little-white-lies/

 

OK, just to be clear...after a couple of email interchanges, and on the first chat or phone call, I tell the lady that I am in an open marriage. I even handed the phone to my wife for the lady friend to talk to her for a bit, just so she'd feel comfortable that there was nothing I was hiding from her. I have no intention of lying to any lady to get laid. What do you folks think? Is it deceitful of me to wait until I've talked with a lady to tell her I'm in an open marriage? The expectation on this particular site (a dating site, not a swinger site) is that you are single, divorced, widowed, or separated..."open marriage" isn't a selection, but then "separated" is still married. Hmmm...my profile says single (my thought being "I can act single"), but perhaps I should set it to "separated" (which indicates that I am married?). Would that be more honest on my part?

 

Damn, I wish there was a hook-up site specifically geared toward open marriages!

 

Loki

[rpu3 630]

Married is what is honest.

 

Married is the label my spouse utilizes on his profile. And then he explains exactly what our deal is in the first paragraph. His honest profile does not prevent women from writing him or meeting him.

[BiloxiCouple 695]

"open marriage" website - Google Search

 

Here is a google search for ( "open marriage" website ), hopefully, you'll find something that is better suited for your needs.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Married is what is honest.

 

Married is the label my spouse utilizes on his profile. And then he explains exactly what our deal is in the first paragraph. His honest profile does not prevent women from writing him or meeting him.

 

Thanks RPU...but is that on a swinger site or a dating site?

 

Loki

[rpu3 630]

A dating site.

[slevin 1,374]

Putting separated is a bad idea. That implies that the relationship is not going well and will likely end in divorce. Single or married are the right things to put there.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Putting separated is a bad idea. That implies that the relationship is not going well and will likely end in divorce. Single or married are the right things to put there.

 

That was actually my thought too...married isn't an option on this particular site, and since I get to "act single" that seemed like the most accurate choice (especially since I pretty much indicate in my profile that I'm looking for an FWB).

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

OK, folks...thoughts here. Sif's 22 yr old boy-toy came down for the weekend. The weekend didn't go quite as well as we would have hoped...there was some discomfort, awkwardness, and tension.

 

He arrived a little after noon on Fri. I was still working (work from home) but I put quite a bit of effort into making him feel comfortable and welcome, especially since I'm much older and secure than he is. Sif and I had agreed (to my understanding) that they wouldn't play until I left to take our daughter to an event (around 5pm) unless they were going to include me. I had told her to take him somewhere (a book store, dressing room, whatever kinky thing turned them on) if she couldn't wait...I tried to make sure she understood it would be just too distracting for me to be working while they were going at it upstairs. Around 3pm, I needed to run an extra ticket to the event over to a friend's house for another kid. I told Sif that I'd be back in 20 mins and asked if she could contain herself. She said "yes". So, I dropped off the ticket and came back. My wife and her BF were upstairs going at it. I went upstairs and knocked on the door, she answered. I asked "what are you doing?" She said "We're playing." I said "I thought you were going to wait?" No answer. "Do I get to join you?" No answer. So, I had to ask myself "what would you want her to do for you?" I like spontaneity, so I said "y'all have fun" and went back downstairs. Now, it would have been nice if she had stopped and come downstairs to talk to me then and make sure I was OK with what was going on...but at least she came down to talk to me after they finished. If I had a spontaneous thing erupt, I wouldn't want her to interrupt, so I figured "OK, this is good for her." She did talk to me after their playtime, and I we realized it was a miscomunication between her and me.

 

So, I leave to get my daughter and take her to the event in question...a friend is taking our daughter home for a sleepover and I'm meeting Sif and her BF at a concert. Sif had told me earlier that her BF was willing to try having a threesome (he's young and insecure, so that's a leap for him). I was thrilled, because according to Sif that was the whole point of alone time in the first place. On the way to the concert, she called me and said he wasn't hip to the idea, and that I needed to stop pressuring him. (No idea where that came from...I wasn't even around either of them for quite a few hours.) So, I told Sif I was disappointed. Then I asked her if I just dropped the idea of having a threesome with him and her, would she consider making a sacrifice for me (up to "taking one fo the team if necessary"...one of the things our marriage counselor from earlier in the year had suggested to me is that it's perfectly OK to ask for something difficult to give back when you give something that's difficult to give, so I did.) Sif wasn't to happy with that question, and didn't answer. When I got to the concert, we talked I hung out for a while, and then decided to leave to give them alone time. I also arranged with the friend keeping our daughter to just crash at their house so I wasn't "in the way" of Sif and her BF having fun after the concert.

 

So, Saturday after I went home, I was feeling a bit uncomfortable and awkward. I tried to make the best of it, because I really didn't want to ruin Sif's weekend with any drama (I'd be pretty miffed if she ruined a weekend for me with her drama.) But, it didn't turn out that way. The BF felt the tension and decided to leave early (which I think REALLY speaks well of him). Sif however was pissed that he's leaving (even though they weren't going to play anymore), pissed that her weekend wasn't perfect, and pissed that I didn't magically overcome the awkwardness I felt. And she made it pretty clear after he left.

 

I'm not too happy about this situation. I gave a lot. I let some rule-bending go since it was a misunderstanding between her and I. I handled my own uncomfortableness in a reserved way. I asked for one simple thing and didn't get it (don't play until I'm done with work because it's too distracting). I gave up the idea of having an MFM threesome and being included so she'd feel no pressure and could enjoy herself.

 

And right now I'm being told that I ruined her weekend, and I that I didn't hold up my end of the deal. I have to admit, I'm feeling just a little unappreciated.

 

From my perspective, this is the first time any of the three of us have attempted anything like this, so there was certainly a possibility that it might not turn out perfect. We even put contingencies into our "playtime agreement" about how we'd handle situations like this, and it sure doesn't feel like that's being followed.

 

Thought or suggestions? What would you do? I think me letting the surprise playtime intially just go was the right choice...I really didn't want to call a stop unless it's really, REALLY necessary and interrupt their fun. That's what I'd want Sif to do for me, especially if there were something spontaneous erupting. I've told Sif that she can just plan another weekend, but that I'd like for her to wait for me first out of consideration.

 

Thoughts or interjections on this?

 

Loki

[ncmd_couple 597]

Loki,

 

You and Sif are not in sync. I'm assuming this happened last weekend. I think you need to sit on your hands on this until Sif gets over her disapointment that the weekend didn't work out perfectly. You will know when that is. Then the two of you need to sit down and talk.

 

In my view, just from what you said, there are three elements to what happened.

 

1. You were not an active participant, but a third wheel. If you two plan to do this again, you need to make sure that this situation does not repeat itself.

 

2. The BF was too immature to be participating in this. He just wanted to boink Sif and for you to be out of the picture. If the two of you plan another play day like this, you need to pick a guy who is mature and secure in the lifestyle. Not a rookie like this guy appears to be.

 

3. Sif let her fantasies outweigh her logic. She was not thinking of anything except being with the BF and she broke the rules several times. She needs to understand that you two are a team, and teams play together and by the rules. Yes, things happen, but a team regroups and works together to make things better.

 

S

[fun4Ds 1,098]

It seems the solution is simple really. From a swingers point of view.

 

You should have let the 22 year old man in on the contract you and Sif have. You both have testified he is a college educated man. Surly he understands a contract. Your not giving him a chance to step up to the plate. It has nothing to do with his comfort fucking Sif while you are around or not. HE needs to have his input on the deal and be accountable.

 

If he would have signed it, everyone would be on the same page.

 

Thats one of the things that make swinging enjoyable for us. Everyone is on the same page

 

Glad we could help Loki

[BiloxiCouple 695]

Get rid of the drama, communicate, stick with your rules, communicate and don't let others dictate your swinging experience (boyfriend being the prime example). And be truthful with others from the word go.

 

Ya'll seem to making it way too complicated and messy by what you have continually posted here and the results of it.

[slevin 1,374]

There is a lot there and I have a lot of thoughts on it, but for now I want to make only one point:

 

You asked them not to play until you were done work and they agreed. They started playing before you were finished work, but while you were out running an errand. When you got back to knocked on the door and after asking some questions got no response.

 

When Katrina and I play with anyone, we are always there together so we have a different situation to deal with, but our most important agreement is that whatever goes on the most important thing is we are both comfortable and happy. Anytime that either of us feels uncomfortable or not at ease we will stop whats going on even if one of us was having a great time. When we were in the middle of playing with a couple and I just wasn't feeling comfortable with her fucking him I said so and she didn't fuck him. No questions asked and no attempts at making me feel guilty. If she wasn't willing to do that we wouldn't be playing with anyone at all. It is about respect; respect for you and respect for your relationship.

 

If I was in your situation I would expect that the agreement to not play until I finished work was followed through with. I would also expect that if there was some miscommunication and they started playing while I ran an errand, that as soon as I knocked on the door at the very least things would stop long enough for her and I to talk about things. I'd expect that my relationship with her and both of us being happy and comfortable was more important to her than her having 'the perfect weekend'.

 

Now, this is your wife and she posts here too so I hope that my comments here don't get taken as me attacking her. Not my intention at all, I said things pretty bluntly here to highlight what seems to be a difference between how Katrina and I approach our playtime and how things played out during your weekend. I am sure that Sif loves you, respects you and holds your relationship at the utmost importance. From the outside looking in based on your quick summary of the weekend, the actions don't show that. Not that she doesn't feel it, but the way it looks from here is that the actions don't show it. Which is important because if Sif does respect you and your relationship, then seeing that perhaps her actions don't support that should reinforce that perhaps its time to take a step or two back to look at whats gone on and make sure that you two are on the same page and have your relationship at the center of what is important to you not just in your thoughts but in your actions.

 

Knowing how this thread has gone on and the contentious way that many comments have been seen I hope that you can take this not with the helpful intention it was written with and not with any malice or disrespect intended.

[Alura 2,774]

Get rid of the drama, communicate, stick with your rules, communicate and don't let others dictate your swinging experience (boyfriend being the prime example). And be truthful with others from the word go.

 

Ya'll seem to making it way too complicated and messy by what you have continually posted here and the results of it.

 

I have to support Billy on this one, Loki. I see a couple of problems. One is that Sif seems to be quite selfish, insisting on doing what she wants despite the discomfort it may cause you. The second is that extramarital sexual activity should be decided by the members of the marriage, not the playmate. It seems Sif is giving him what he wants, your feelings be damned.

 

Of course, we've heard only your side of the story. It will be helpful to hear Sif's.

 

Mr. Alura

[CallMeLoki 32]

Thanks for the posts folks. Just to be clear here...I wasn't thrilled that Sif and her BF played earlier than we agreed to, but I let that go after I realized it was a miscommunication between her and I. Really, I did what I'd want her to do for me. That's what we agreed to in our playtime agreement...to treat each other like we'd like to be treated.

 

Unfortunately, it did set a not-so-great tone for the rest of the weekend. In the BF's defense, he is the one who decided to cut the weekend a little short and leave Sat after dinner rather than Sunday afternoon. So, I do have to credit him with that...if I were in the same situation and felt any tension, I'd make the same choice.

 

Sif reacts very emotionally to things. I'm just going to give her time to get her head straight. And yes, this was last weekend, I've been gone to a conference all week, and just got back home a few hours ago. I'm not sure what transpired while I've been gone (didn't mean that physically, just communication-wise...the BF lives 4 hours away), but I know that Sif said she "went off" on the BF (and I'm not sure why). That concerns me a lot actually...I think Sif and I need to talk about how well she's managing her emotions around this.

 

I'm just trying to keep a reasonable perspective here, ya know? We tried a weekend with a her BF here...it didn't work so well. Who knows, it might work better if we tried it again (it's not something any of us have ever done before), or maybe it's something that wasn't such a good idea to start with. But the reality is that Sif and I have had weekends alone (meaning just her and I) that didn't work so well either, so really it's Sif and I that need to work through various things. The BF was just part of the environment this particular time.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

I have to support Billy on this one, Loki. I see a couple of problems. One is that Sif seems to be quite selfish, insisting on doing what she wants despite the discomfort it may cause you. The second is that extramarital sexual activity should be decided by the members of the marriage, not the playmate. It seems Sif is giving him what he wants, your feelings be damned.

 

Of course, we've heard only your side of the story. It will be helpful to hear Sif's.

 

Mr. Alura

 

 

In Sif's defense here...we can all be selfish, it's part of human nature. We just have to check ourselves on it, ya know? Sif has given me free reign for my own pursuits...it's just a difficult balance in this "play alone/open relationship" type of situation, as I continue to see. If we can successfully navigate something as troublesome as this, then it really speaks well of our relationship, I think.

 

I really don't think this is something we'll be doing long-term...it's too difficult.

 

Oh, btw...I did visit the Red Rooster swinger club in Las Vegas while I was there last week. I didn't play, just hung out, talked to folks, met a really nice couple (nice fella with a gorgeous wife)...they ended up giving me a ride back to my hotel, and (I gather) considered coming up for some play time (asked for my cel# and how long I'd be up). I didn't get a call from them, but who knows, I might see them again some time.

 

Loki

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

I feel like we are becoming your group therapy session here, and quite frankly it's troubling.

 

You came here looking for advice--that's cool, it's what this place does soooo well. However instead of taking in the advice, making a decision and moving foward--you want us to hold your hand, every step of the way. To me this is a big ass red sign saying You aren't ready for extra-marital sex yet.

 

You find a friend you want to bed, your wife disagrees yet you insist she is the one you want. Where is the respect for her opinion? Why not just drop it and look elsewhere. It took the friend's "Soft no" to get you to move on--does that seem like it's right to you??? NOT ME

 

Likewise...

 

You asked mama to restrain her self, she agreed. Yet shortly after you left she wasn't so in control--Where is her respect for your wishes? The shizznit only gets deeper with her acting pissy after-the-fact. Nice way of displaying her priorities and lack of compassion for you.

 

See what I mean...NOT READY

 

Both of you need to keep your junk in your own marital pants, tell the wet-behind-the-ears college kid to get lost and concentrate on each other. It takes ALOT more than talking to communicate...

 

 

An old Frog (USN type) once made the comment "The only way that stupid fucker will learn is through pain" While he was certainly refering to physical pain I think it COULD apply here, in terms of emotional pain--IS THIS YOU (as a couple)??

[BiloxiCouple 695]

An old Frog (USN type) once made the comment "The only way that stupid fucker will learn is through pain" While he was certainly refering to physical pain I think it COULD apply here, in terms of emotional pain--IS THIS YOU (as a couple)??

 

 

I love that!!!

 

My son is in Navy boot right now and I sent him this.

 

The 5 most dangerous things to hear in the Navy, with #5 being the most pertinent:

 

A Seaman saying, “I learned this in Boot Camp…”

 

A Petty Officer saying, “Trust me, Sir…”

 

A Lieutenant JG saying, “Based on my experience…”

 

A Lieutenant saying, “I was just thinking…”

 

A Chief chuckling, “Watch this shit…”

[slevin 1,374]

It takes ALOT more than talking to communicate...

 

I love this statement, it made some of my own thoughts on communication click into place. Great sentiment and I'm going to steal that

[slevin 1,374]

Thanks for the posts folks. Just to be clear here...

 

Some other great posts regarding both this latest situation and our/your reaction to it. My own personal concern with this is that you've, yet again, seemed to have said thanks then moved on to defending either yourself or Sif. No one here is attacking you at all and there is no adversarial situation going on. I'm concerned that you're doing nothing more than working through your own thought process and not actually taking much of the thoughtful information and advice into consideration. You don't need to defend yourselves to us at all, our posts are something to think about and consider for both of you.

 

Rather than just either defend or discount what folks are saying, take a step back and actually give all these comments some serious thought. Far more comments here through your whole experience have been spot on than you give credit for.

[fun4Ds 1,098]

I have to ask.

 

How do you both feel about the possibilities that might have happened had you been swinging together or at least, visiting the club together?

 

What are each of your thoughts on this?

[rpu3 630]

Some other great posts regarding both this latest situation and our/your reaction to it. My own personal concern with this is that you've, yet again, seemed to have said thanks then moved on to defending either yourself or Sif. No one here is attacking you at all and there is no adversarial situation going on. I'm concerned that you're doing nothing more than working through your own thought process and not actually taking much of the thoughtful information and advice into consideration. You don't need to defend yourselves to us at all, our posts are something to think about and consider for both of you.

 

Rather than just either defend or discount what folks are saying, take a step back and actually give all these comments some serious thought. Far more comments here through your whole experience have been spot on than you give credit for.

 

 

I know I've commented before as to how many good opinion, questions and advice you have discounted or outright ignored, including comments, opinions and questions from the very few of us who are in open marriages.

 

Please, please, please... go back the the beginning and read what you've written and what people have responded with, especially those that you've just ignored because it didn't fit with your world view, and those you've reacted strongly to.

 

There is, and has been, much "wrong" with your approaches and subsequent outcomes, and I say that as someone who is in a nice open arrangement (to date).

 

Nobody is perfect, no one is immune to mistakes, but some of the problems and mistakes are just of such a high magnitude that it's hard to look at this thread and call it healthy self-expression, much less call it a healthy open marriage. All I can hope is this thread serves as a warning to others on one hand, and that it doesn't have to be the norm, either. There are some healthy open marriages out there. This isn't one of them. At least not now.

 

Please go back and read where you've come from, and where you are, and who you reacted to, and most importantly, ignored, in this thread.

[LokisFemaleHalf 15]

Started replying, but it just became too overwhelming. I have lots to say, but saying it here is not the proper format. Thanks for all your advice, all the slamming, and all the aplogizing for slamming. (I am not mad, btw, I do appreciate differing opinions. It is what intelligent people do!!) I am not a swinger, never will be. But I appreciate all your advice and concerns. I will probably not be coming back to this board, not because I don't want to heed your advice, but there is so much more I need to do to work on myself and raising my daughter than worrying about who did what right or wrong to whom. There are so many things that I could say about this from my point of view, but in all honesty, that would cause more harm that good, so what is the point? All of you have given great advice and been as fair and honest as you could given the facts you have.

 

Godspeed and Peace

-SIF

[CallMeLoki 32]

...

You find a friend you want to bed, your wife disagrees yet you insist she is the one you want. Where is the respect for her opinion? Why not just drop it and look elsewhere. It took the friend's "Soft no" to get you to move on--does that seem like it's right to you??? NOT ME

...

 

I'm not sure what friend you are referring to, but my wife encouraged me completely with two women that I've pursued so far. I was so over-sensitive to her opinions on the one close friend that it took her a while to convince me that she really was OK with that choice even though it was not someone she'd prefer. I wouldn't have asked that friend if my wife hadn't encouraged me or had shown any uncertainty about it. My wife stretched for me because I stretched for her...that part made me feel quite good about her and our marriage.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Some other great posts regarding both this latest situation and our/your reaction to it. My own personal concern with this is that you've, yet again, seemed to have said thanks then moved on to defending either yourself or Sif. No one here is attacking you at all and there is no adversarial situation going on. I'm concerned that you're doing nothing more than working through your own thought process and not actually taking much of the thoughtful information and advice into consideration. You don't need to defend yourselves to us at all, our posts are something to think about and consider for both of you.

 

Rather than just either defend or discount what folks are saying, take a step back and actually give all these comments some serious thought. Far more comments here through your whole experience have been spot on than you give credit for.

 

Thanks man, I definitely am! And yes, there are quite a few things you guys have called correctly. I definitely acknowledge that.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

I have to ask.

 

How do you both feel about the possibilities that might have happened had you been swinging together or at least, visiting the club together ?

 

What are each of your thoughts on this ?

 

Good question. His opinion: I'm hip to the idea of going to meet and greets, hanging out to get to know people, watching, etc. I don't think I'd want to actually play in a club though.

 

One of my likely mistakes that I can see: I didn't function as a "gate-keeper" very well. The original goal with this fellow was to have an MFM threesome. Sif agreed that was appealing to her. He was hesitant. The idea was put on the table of "let us have some alone time together and then he may be comfortable enough to try an MFM". My mistake was saying "OK". They've had alone time for two weekends now, and still no threesome or anything that included me. (Again though, Sif has given me free reign to go do my own thing.)

 

If I had been properly functioning as a gate-keeper, I would have said "No, let's have a threesome first, then if I feel comfortable I'll allow alone time." Ya know, I just feel like a selfish jerk putting it that way though...I want Sif to get what she needs and wants out of this. It's a very difficult choice.

 

I have sort of "called a stop" for myself though. I've been putting a lot of effort into searching for a playmate for myself. I'm putting that on hold until I have my head straight and I feel like Sif and I are OK. So, don't think your advice goes unheeded...some of it I act on, some I absorb and keep in case I need it. Your posts aren't being wasted.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Please, please, please... go back the the beginning and read what you've written and what people have responded with, especially those that you've just ignored because it didn't fit with your world view, and those you've reacted strongly to.

...

Nobody is perfect, no one is immune to mistakes, but some of the problems and mistakes are just of such a high magnitude that it's hard to look at this thread and call it healthy self-expression, much less call it a healthy open marriage...

 

Please go back and read where you've come from, and where you are, and who you reacted to, and most importantly, ignored, in this thread.

 

This is great advice. I will do exactly that, RPU. Thanks.

 

Loki

[BiloxiCouple 695]

I'll repeat myself. Not a slam. The effort is no longer worth it.

 

It seems you will justify to do whatever you want to do.

 

We give advice for one thing you agree and then try to justify it another way. And the story keeps going and going and going.....

 

If I heard this conversation in person, I would have walked away from it.

 

 

I give up.

 

Have a nice life.

[CallMeLoki 32]

...I am not a swinger, never will be.

 

I guess it depends on definitions here...Sif had extramarrital recreational sex. She's either a swinger or a cheater. She had my permission and blessing, so she's not a cheater. Doesn't that make her a "swinger", even though it's not the normal "lifestyle" approach? If I do the same, doesn't that make me a "swinger"?

 

Loki

[slevin 1,374]

I guess it depends on definitions here...Sif had extramarrital recreational sex. She's either a swinger or a cheater. She had my permission and blessing, so she's not a cheater. Doesn't that make her a "swinger", even though it's not the normal "lifestyle" approach? If I do the same, doesn't that make me a "swinger"?

 

Doesn't matter what you call it. Katrina doesn't consider herself (or us) to be a swinger, but we have fun going to the swinger clubs and have a great time meeting other couples to play with. We just go with what we like, make sure that we're having fun (both of us having fun and doing things we are both happy and comfortable with) and we don't worry about what that makes us.

 

What is more important to us is that we are both feeling happy, comfortable, respected and loved. Both feeling like we are in a place where if we were ever to be even slightly uncomfortable the other would freely and gladly stop what was going on, even if they were enjoying it.

 

It's the basis that has made what we've done successful even when things didn't go the way we wanted them to.

 

I'm curious to hear what you think after you've re-read this thread now.

[CallMeLoki 32]

What is more important to us is that we are both feeling happy, comfortable, respected and loved. Both feeling like we are in a place where if we were ever to be even slightly uncomfortable the other would freely and gladly stop what was going on, even if they were enjoying it.

 

Absolutely agreed.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

On re-reading some of this thread (back to where we started off), there's one thing that is clear to me:

 

I've made decisions that were designed to make Sif happy first, RATHER THAN making decisions that protected our relationship first. Is that my main mistake here?

 

Loki

[slevin 1,374]

On re-reading some of this thread (back to where we started off), there's one thing that is clear to me:

 

I've made decisions that were designed to make Sif happy first, RATHER THAN making decisions that protected our relationship first. Is that my main mistake here?

 

Not sure you can distill it down to one thing that made the difference between things going great and you having struggles. To be totally honest, I get the impression that the biggest issue for you both is that you are looking out for what is best for Sif and Sif is looking out for what is best for Sif. Not going to make me any more popular with Sif who has taken a very victim mentality about her participation here with her recent reply, but it is how it seems.

 

It's ok for you to be looking out for what makes Sif happy, for that to work she has to be looking out for what makes you happy and from the one sided summary of your weekend (and other descriptions of your situation throughout the thread) she's been focused on herself and her happiness. Also, you've been focused on her happiness perhaps to the detriment of your own comfort level and happiness. That should never happen.

 

Overall though, it's been a number of small issues: letting the single guys comfort level dictate your actions, let rules be stretched with no pause or reflection as a couple before doing so and both of you focusing on what will make Sif happy.

 

Let me tell a quick couple of stories about an experience that Katrina and I had to illustrate a bit about what I mean when I talk about being in this together, not sure if I talked about this already here or not, if I did, I apologize for repeating myself lol. I find it easier to make my point with examples.

 

We played with a couple and we were having a great time. We had discussed doing a full-swap with them and we were both up for it when we discussed it. During the actual playtime I got a twinge of a feeling that I just wasn't up for the full-swap. Not sure why I got that feeling, but it was there and as Katrina and the other guy were moving to have sex I just sat up from what I was doing and said I wasn't comfortable with that tonight. Katrina had no problem with it and the other guy was cool about it. We all went back to what we were doing and finished having fun for the night. When we left and went home Katrina never gave me a hard time about it and actually took some time to make sure I was ok with everything that did happen etc.

 

Another time we met a couple and I was totally into the girl. She was hot, flirtatious and totally into me as well. I was really psyched about playing with them and looking forward to the next time we'd get to meet them so we could all play. Katrina seemed to be into the guy, though they didn't have as much chemistry as the girl and I had. As we were driving home she said she was attracted to him, but that something just didn't feel right and she didn't want to play with them. Not a question from me about it at all, didn't try to change her mind, didn't try to talk her into it and although I was bummed since I had such a great connection with the girl that was the end of it.

 

When the female half of a couple we were playing with expressed to Katrina privately that she wanted the two of them to meet up privately to play alone Katrina called me right away and that was the end of our playtimes with them. She was attracted to this girl, loved playing with them as a couple, we loved hanging out with them in normal social situations as well, but we only play as a couple. Rather than letting her desires dictate how we played, we cut off playing with a couple we really liked because it didn't fit with the way we wanted to play.

 

Even when things were against how we individually wanted things to go, both of us looked out for our relationship first and what the other was comfortable with.

 

All of that is looking backwards for you though. That is useful to a degree, but too much stewing over what happened isn't healthy. It's useful to help learn from mistakes but you also need to work out where to go from here. Stopping the play activities is important until your head is clear. Is Sif willing and happy to stop her playtime with her young friend? Is she willing to stop communicating with him at all and focus on just the two of you for a while? Is she willing to find a different guy to join you who is more knowledgeable about playing with couples?

 

Do you know what YOU want from all of this? Specifically? Does she know what she wants from this specifically? Is she able to be honest with both herself and you in expressing her desires?

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

CallMeLoki said:

I'm not sure what friend you are referring to, but my wife encouraged me completely with two women that I've pursued so far. I was so over-sensitive to her opinions on the one close friend that it took her a while to convince me that she really was OK with that choice even though it was not someone she'd prefer. I wouldn't have asked that friend if my wife hadn't encouraged me or had shown any uncertainty about it. My wife stretched for me because I stretched for her...that part made me feel quite good about her and our marriage.

Loki

 

LokisFemaleHalf said:

Ok. The only threesome I would participate in is one with a more casual choice than BD is making. He is choosing to pursue one of our best friends, someone we share life with, the kids play, etc. I am not comfortable playing with this friend. If she is his choice, I back him 100%. I would rather it not be his choice, but now it is his turn, and I am going to support him. Now, if it was the hot waitress at the Italian joint, or a less than close friend, I could play above the waist and give him his threesome. But it ain't gonna happen with his choice, and I am not one who is bi or bi-curious. He sent me away for three days with someone I adore. The least I can do is return the favor...Hell, we are breaking out of the monogamous mold..What else do ya want?

 

This friend...

 

The bold-underscore represents her passive version of "No" and the bold segments represent her taking one for the team! Which leads into my comment about communication.

 

This is version of life happens to be played in the deep end of the pool, several of us here are telling you we can see the two of you struggling to tread water and yet you want to buy the Olympic sized 50m version.....and then you insult our intelligence by arguing how or why or when you could make it work

 

Based on your follow up posts--Enjoy your pain

 

I'll be with Billy having a beer

[CallMeLoki 32]

Do you know what YOU want from all of this? Specifically? Does she know what she wants from this specifically? Is she able to be honest with both herself and you in expressing her desires?

 

Yes. Per the original thread 23 pages ago, the thing I was after was a threesome with my wife and another lady, AND to continue to heat up our sex life between the two of us. I just wanted to live out that fantasy one time in my life. It morphed from having a pair of threesomes as a gift to each other to having an open relationship that is on-going. I do need to think over some more how this happened...I make mistakes like anyone else, and I do try to learn from my mistakes. Sometimes they just have to be made to "get it" though, ya know?

 

Loki

[slevin 1,374]

Ok. So if you know what you want then you know where to start to make it happen. Of course, I think you and Sif do need to take that time to reconnect and get back on the same page again. Once you're both feeling reconnected and you have had a chance to reflect on the success and issues that you've gone through then you can get back to exploring. This time though, lead things towards that it is that you want; taking into consideration what she wants and is comfortable with as well.

 

Also, something for you to think about is what does Sif want. Is she excited about what you want? Or is she considering doing it because she feels she has to? Have you tried to make your fantasy her fantasy? Some food for thought anyway.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Well, I thought that Sif was excited about what I want. We've certainly had fun getting a couple's lap dance, so I thought that she's OK and turned one by seeing me with another lady.

 

However, I just discovered tonight that Sif is trying to sabatage the friendship with my female best-friend (the one I asked if she'd like to be a playmate). Fortunately for me, Sif won't succeed...that friendship is based on absolute trust, and there's nothing she can do or say to change that.

 

If no one has caught this yet, Sif is the drama creator in our relationship. And all of you are probably right...she's probably not cut out for anything remotely resembling swinging.

 

Loki

[PB&J 1,086]

And all of you are probably right...she's probably not cut out for anything remotely resembling swinging.

 

Ummmm... Loki? Have people been saying that Sif isn't ready for swinging? Or that BOTH of you aren't cut out for it?

If you make Sif into the problem, you still don't get it. Which is why, IMHO, it wasn't ever going to work.

[slevin 1,374]

Well, that is too bad. Yes, if one of you is not being honest with themselves nor with their spouse and is also subversively working against you then swinging is not going to work. In fact, a healthy marriage is not going to work either. Do I think that was the only issue here? No, not really; it definitely precludes anything working out well thought.

 

Can you, as a man, learn how to work with the situation you find yourself in to the benefit of both of you? Yes. The question becomes: do you want to? Is this who Sif is and you need to learn to either manage it or decide to break from it? Or is this an aberration for Sif?

 

I think the fact that you've readily accepted Sif creating drama as being the reason things didn't work out displays a bit of the other causes of why things didn't work out. Perhaps that was just you posting on here to let us all know that you've seen some of what some of us have been passively pointing out while trying to be non-insulting. Perhaps you are quietly taking ownership of the issues and looking at what you did/didn't do that either caused the current situation or added to it. I hope so, because I think the right thing for you to do is to assess the situation and look at what you can do with it and things you can do differently. You can't control Sif and what she does, you can only control what you do and how you react to things. That can have a big impact on Sif and what she does, but you can't control her nor expect her to do the same for you. You can decide that is how you want to be treated, but it's up to Sif to follow through with it.

 

I hope that wasn't bouncing around to too many topics there lol.

[Chicup 41]

Back in grade school I had to read Oedipus Rex.

 

Long story short, the guy ends up killing his own father, marrying his mother, having kids with her, finding out, and then blinding himself out of the horror of it all.

 

The thing was we knew this before we started reading. It wasn't a plot twist, it was like watching 'Titanic', you knew the ship was going to sink.

 

You knew the wrong moves he was about to make, you watched him ignore good advice through out, and finally going is own way, he falls from king to blind beggar, never heeding anyone's words, though he constantly asked for advice.

 

Loki we all knew this was going to be some sort of train wreck for you, it was like reading that play, I knew your ending and it was just watching it all unfold. Now obviously I didn't know exactly how it would end, nor do I know how you will end up after all this, you are beyond my advice because you made to many wrong moves to start this that I don't have a clue what you are feeling what she is feeling or how to wright this ship.

 

Your story is a great lesson for others confused on the thoughts of swinging and what it does to a relationship. Its a case study in things not to do.

 

Maybe you will be able to fix everything, but that's going to take you and your wife working together, I think you are beyond any of our advice here.

[lustylearning 705]

Why would anyone get onto a website and bash their partner?

[PB&J 1,086]

Why would anyone get onto a website and bash their partner?

 

If you haven't read all 24 pages, here's the summary:

 

Loki & Sif: This is what we're going to do, any advice?

 

SB: Don't do it.

 

L&S: No, no, it's going to be great, Somebody smack me if this is a red flag, please! I am so glad this forum is here to guide us!

 

SB: Smack. Don't do it.

 

L&S: We know what we're doing, stop trying to talk us out of it.

 

SB: Whatever.

 

L&S: Oh no, it's all gone wrong, how could this happen?

 

SB:

[CallMeLoki 32]

Why would anyone get onto a website and bash their partner?

 

I wasn't bashing my partner...I was saying what I see and believe as honestly as I could. I would say that the first encounter for Sif (the alone weekend) turned out very good for her. Some parts were a little rough for me and for her (and I expected that), but overall I felt at that point it was a good thing for us (with a few growing pains). The situation this time turned out very different...I feel a lot of hurt from Sif's actions (and NOT so much the early playtime that was a miscommunication...her actions after his departure created the hurt for me). So, really this is a relationship issue her and I are having rather than a "swinging" issue...it just happened to have involved some swinging.

 

Sif's attitude this time was totally different...I feel like she viewed it as entitlement rather than a privilege. I feel like that's the wrong way to see it, especially since I was stretching myself to allow her a 2nd encounter before I'd had my first. I'm not sure if this is a train-wreck or not...it certainly points to some things in our relationship that need to be addressed. I really thought we were solid enough to handle minor problems without them becoming huge entanglements, but I see that we aren't. You never know the answer to that unless you're there, I guess.

 

Loki