Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[lovefest04 700]

I have stumbled in and out of this thread for sometime. What I see now is truly disheartening and I know that I only see what you want to reveal here on the board, so my opinion is based on that information, which is likely not ALL the information.

 

Loki, you talk too much. In your efforts to think this out, to clarify it for yourself, and to design a deal that makes it alright for you to play outside of your marriage, you're not seeing that your marriage is in trouble.

 

There are so many red flags here. And then in a recent post to tell us that you've been in counseling 1 year ago. God help ya!

 

Forget the swinging community, delete all links to this website from your computer, stop coming here. You need to work on your relationship. Communicate about that, not swinging, open marriages or a hot girl at the bar.

 

Get back in therapy and have the discussion there with a trained professional. That's the place to talk about all the sex stuff.

 

I truly wish you and Sif the best.

 

With love,

 

S

[2inSanDiego4u 181]

On the note above, this thread should be put to rest in the Never Ending Threads area IMHO.

 

Best of luck to you both, Loki and Sif.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Well, I'm going back to see our marriage counselor (who's a psychologist) to help me work through some of this. I'm sure that Sif will join me (or I certainly hope so), but I think I and the MC need to spend some time alone so I can talk very candidly about how I feel about it all.

 

And I agree we have some relationship issues. Sif and I have always had a rocky marriage. It's just the way it is for us. We soar high in the clouds for a while, then plummet into a canyon for a bit. Really, I'm not sure any of this playtime had anything to do with it really...we'd probably still be at the same spot even if nothing but fantasy had transpired. But rest assured everything is "on hold" until we've handled our issues.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Loki, you talk too much.

 

Yeah, I know. It's the way I am. I can't shut that off or sometimes I would.

 

Loki

[Mr.Essex 264]

This thread made it to 24 pages? And he didn't figure out that it was going to go all pear-shaped?

[CallMeLoki 32]

This thread made it to 24 pages? And he didn't figure out that it was going to go all pear-shaped?

 

Well, it happens so quickly for us, what can I say? It could just as easily have been a mushroom cloud over where to eat dinner, or what movie to go see, etc. It just happened to be a mushroom cloud over Sif's playtime weekend this time. We'll work it out to some kind of resolution, as we always have. (And sometimes I wonder if that in itself isn't the "skill" necessary to have a long marriage...the determination, persistence, and downright stubborness to just not give up).

 

Loki

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

It could just as easily have been a mushroom cloud over where to eat dinner, or what movie to go see, etc.

Loki

 

I have avoided this thread like the plague that it is, but I just had to respond to this....

 

If your relationship can mushroom cloud over something as simple as where to eat dinner or what movie to see, then swinging is the last thing you should ever consider doing. In fact, you should never have stopped seeing that counselor and if/when you did stop you probably should have just split up.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Hey Julie...well, what can you say? Some folks are emotional and react in emotional ways. It doesn't always mean something is broken (sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't)...it just means they react in an emotional way. We seem to have a few mini-blowouts every 6 months or so. Is it something I like? Um, no. Is it part of the relationship and something I either have to accept about the relationship, or decide to take myself out of the relationship? Um, yup. So far, I've decided to accept the emotional reactions to things because there are so many other good things about Sif. None of us are perfect, after all.

 

Loki

[slevin 1,374]

Loki,

 

Most women react in an emotional way, what is important is how that impacts you and the relationship. It's also normal for a relationship to have it's ups and downs and for both people to get emotional from time to time. If little things are setting off major emotional outbursts and reactions then there is something else going on that is triggering the small outbursts. Where to have dinner isn't what she is getting upset about, there is something underlying going on that she may not even be consciously aware of. Until either you or Sif figure out what that is these regular troubles are going to keep happening and I would suggest they are going to get both more frequent and more intense. There is a lot you can do to manage her outbursts when they happen, but honestly the best way to deal with it is to eliminate the problem or remove the person creating them.

 

I think what Julie is trying to point out there is that if she is having major emotional outbursts over where to eat dinner that a highly emotionally charged situation like swinging and open relationships is absolutely a disaster waiting to happen. Even people who are emotionally sound and do not have major emotional reactions to things find themselves being overwhelmed by the emotions of swinging.

 

I'm glad that you are going back to see your psychologist, that is great to help you sort things out about your situation and your reactions to it. Sif really needs to see someone on her own and with you as well.

[CallMeLoki 32]

I got a reminder to visit this site...perfect timing.

 

So, after the weekend that didn't go well, Sif has created 5 weeks of drama so far. Since her actions didn't match her words, I decided to do something very unlike me and go snooping (I had never once snooped on her in 12 years...she's done it to me plenty of times for no valid reason, so I figured it was perfectly OK for me to have my turn). I pulled up her chat log from the last 5 weeks.

 

Holy shit...what a shock I had. I have been a totally fucking stupid trusting fool. Sif is emotionally attached to the 22 yr old, and the 22 yr old is emotionally attached to Sif. They love each other...I'm so fucking happy for them. Some of the derogatory things Sif said about me in her chats...I really just can't believe it. The "accidental" breaking of some rules was obviously planned. I won't even go on about the rest of it.

 

This was supposed to be for us...it obviously was not. She's begging the 22 yr old to fuck her again and essentially begging him to run away with her...he's encouraging her to leave me because I'm so "abusive", and actually made threats against me, although at least he's got the good common sense to say "we need to end all of it, including our friendship".

 

I gave Sif pretty much everything she asked for up to and even past my own limits, and I am just shocked at what I'm getting in return. I thought we were supposed to treat people the way we'd like to be treated. You guys were absolutely right. I should have listened. I thought my wife was totally devoted to me. I guess we live and learn.

 

Loki

[slevin 1,374]

Sorry to hear that Loki. Definitely a time here when I don't think anyone is happy to find out that they were right in their warnings.

 

I'm not sure what you want to do about the situation, but I think you should quietly contact a lawyer for some advice. This is a time to decide what you want to do and follow through on it; whatever is going to be best for you.

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

I agree with slevin; get a lawyer and start getting things in order *quietly*. Somebody else, maybe in this thread forever ago, maybe in another thread, suggested to somebody that you should get the house, cars, etc. all in your name, bank accounts controlled by you, etc. Talk to a lawyer, make sure your ducks are in a row. THEN confront the spouse. That's not necessarily bad advice.

 

Myself, I'm perhaps too optimistic about things. I see the wisdom in the above advice, but I would probably directly confront my wife and discuss things with her. I would also make it very clear that regardless of how connected she is to her fuck buddy, it must end and end immediately; no last fucks, no last dinners, no last chats. Either she is committed to our relationship or it is over with me. It is an ultimatum.

 

My wife and I have a core rule in swinging that if either one of us begins to feel romantic love for another person, that we inform our spouse and immediately terminate any further contact with the person other than to politely inform them that things must end. We have a very deep, loving, trusting relationship. This enables us to swing. I don't personally care or mind if my wife has sex with a particular guy a thousand times, so long as she doesn't fall in love with him or he with her. But, if she starts to feel romantic love, it must end. She knows this, and I trust her completely to abide by it, and I've never once felt any reason to doubt her or her emotions.

 

This isn't the time for anyone on this thread to say "I told you so" It's obvious we were right all along. You don't need to be beaten over the head with it. Now it's time for damage control. I do want to raise something that I raised before, because it is even more important now. This is not to bludgeon you, but to give you some focus that might be missing.

 

You have a daughter in this mix. She didn't ask for this, and is now an innocent victim of an open marriage gone horribly wrong. Do NOT forget her in this. You owe an immense responsibility to her, and must do everything in your power to right things with your marriage and your wife.

[Alura 2,774]

I'm so sorry to hear about the turn of events, Loki. There is no betrayal more punishing that the one you describe. Still, the answer is not to ask what might have been but where to go from here. Is the marriage beyond salvage? Only you can know the answer to that one.

 

Just in case, please follow the advice above and seek legal advice. Being prepared for the worst makes us ready to deal with what actually happens.

 

Please keep us informed. The folks here really care.

 

Mr. Alura

[CallMeLoki 32]

I confronted her with it last night. I wouldn't try to screw her over since we both made bad decisions in this. I realize that there were many points where I should have said "no" and didn't. That certainly doesn't take the any of the hurt away right now though. Sif was honest in telling me that she was too emotionally attached...but I really didn't expect to read what I read in her chat log, and I also expected her to cut off the communication with him after I asked her to and she agreed that she would.

 

Marriage beyond salvage? I honestly don't know...I need to let my emotions settle so I can think clearly.

 

And yes, my daughter is the one who had no responsibility in this and should not suffer in any way for her parents' stupid decisions.

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

And yes, my daughter is the one who had no responsibility in this and should not suffer in any way for her parents' stupid decisions.

 

Agreed.

 

You might want to approach your wife regarding this very subject. She says she's too emotionally attached to him to give him up. But...

 

Does she really want to sacrifice her marriage to you, the role the two of you have as parents to your daughter, the unified family under one roof life that she has being married to you...

 

...so she can go and live with someone half her age, and is barely an adult himself? Does she really think this child will be able to give her the depth of love and maturity that she, a woman in her 40s, must need?

 

Does she really want to have to explain to her nine year old daughter why mommy left daddy for a 22 year old? Does she really want her daughter to think this is normal, rational, acceptable behavior? The daughter WILL pick up on this eventually, regardless of how much your wife tries to obscure it. The impact on the daughter will be huge.

 

The fucking is fun, to be sure. I'm sure she's having one hell of a fun time fucking him. The New Relationship Euphoria is still fully...FULLY..in force with this guy. She hasn't had enough day to day contact with him for it to where off, and the REAL relationship to begin. This kid isn't old enough to take care of himself practically, much less maintain a steady relationship. Early on, you wanted this to be a training session for him, because he's not very good at such things. Does your wife honestly think this fuck buddy is going to make a good partner for the long haul?

 

I am reminded of a real story I read, written by a man who had an affair. he "fell in love" with the woman he was having the affair with, and told his wife that he was leaving her for this other woman. The wife of course was deeply upset. She did something very wise. She told her husband to go tell their eight year old daughter that daddy was leaving, and wasn't going to be living at home anymore, and to tell her exactly why, leaving out of course the intimate details; to tell her that daddy had fallen in love with another woman, and didn't want to be with mommy anymore.

 

He couldn't do it. He got as far as sitting in front of his daughter, beginning to try to explain, and broke down in tears. It was a gut wrenching moment for him. At that moment, he decided to cut it off with the other woman, stick it out with his wife and figure out how to make the marriage work. The story as written was done many years after this event, and the father who had had the affair was IMMENSELY thankful that he had stayed because he and his wife did figure it out after a lot of trials and tribulations, and he didn't miss being a father to his daughter; he didn't miss all those moments when she needed her daddy, when he could be there for her.

 

If your wife leaves, it will be a crushing, devastating blow to your daughter. If she does leave, I strongly recommend getting her some counseling. She WILL need it. If your wife leaves, and tries to take your daughter with her, fight it. Placing a nine year old daughter in a situation where a 40+ year old woman is living with a 22 year old man, unmarried no less, is just a recipe for total disaster on that child's life. She (your daughter) will spin into depression, and it won't be pretty. Most sane judges would gladly rule in your favor in this situation and give you custody.

 

You've both done a wonderful job of being selfish. It's now time to rise to the occasion and be utterly selfless when it comes to your daughter. Now, more than ever, she needs you to be at your utter best.

 

Your wife must drop her fuck buddy, and now. It must end. If there's to be any hope for your marriage, it must end and it must end now. If she can't do that, if she insists she's too emotionally attached, then it's over. Go talk to a lawyer as soon as possible and start getting things in order. You don't have to actually file for divorce, but do start talking with a lawyer to learn the process, what to do, how to be prepared, etc. You don't have to actually take action, but it's a far better thing to be prepared.

[CallMeLoki 32]

She IS a good mother, and she wouldn't think of moving 3 hours away to live with a 22 yr old who doesn't have a job and still lives with his parents. (If she did, she certainly would not be taking our daughter with her.) She says it's over now. Or that's what she says. (Of course, she also told me almost a week ago she wasn't communicating with him anymore. When I saw her chat log from Dec 1-2 for instance, she said "I left him a message and he didn't answer, so we weren't chatting". OK.)

 

Sorry, but I don't see where I've been selfish in this. I've said "yes" to everything she asked for because I wanted her to be happy and enjoy it...I don't see how that's selfish? Yes, I'd want her to do the same thing for me, but I'd think telling her "no" is more selfish (although it certainly would have protected our relationship where "yes" did not.) Sincere question.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Ya know something that just kills me here? Shortly after we started on this open relationship path, I started putting some study into pickup techniques and seduction (books by Ross Jeffries, Mystery, Neil Strauss..."The Game" and other books, etc.), assuming my target would be single women rather than swinging couples. I can look at their chat from even last week and see where he was using "game" techniques on her. Is it intentional or not? I dunno, but apparently it works. It's obvious to me that he put quite a bit of manipulation effort into my wife. (Apparently he's not as innocent as he pretended to be.) I told her that I thought he was "gaming" her. She considered it, got angry at him, but then got angry at me for even saying it after he wiggled his way out of it. The fact that he's been encouraging her to leave me just confirms it in my mind.

 

He said in their chat a few days ago that during the awkward dinner the Sat night he left that he wanted to reach over and punch me in the face. Oh boy, oh boy...how I WISH he had. I would have ripped him limb-from-limb.

 

I feel totally fucking stupid for letting this happen. I did not function as the gate-keeper like I should have.

 

Loki

[slevin 1,374]

You were selfish in the endeavour of exploring an open marriage with reckless abandon. You were seeking out your fun as well, allowing Sif her fun was a part of that. Being selfish isn't inherently bad; if you don't look out for yourself, who will? You were thinking of Sif when you let her have her fun and thinking of yourself when pursuing your fun. All done with disregard for the warning signs that were present and the potential danger to your relationship. Sif has shown that she won't think about what is best for you when it comes to her emotional reactions to things and if I was in your shoes it would be a very long time before I could trust her again.

 

Confronting her with this was the wrong move, in my opinion. You are reacting emotionally to a situation that demands thoughtful logic and planning. You're also continuing to attribute logical thought processes to Sif when she has consistently demonstrated that she will always act emotionally. You say she won't up and move 3 hours away with live with a guy who lives with his parents? I disagree. Based on everything in this thread I wouldn't be surprised to hear you come back and say that she has decided to move into an apartment with him. I also guarantee that she assumes she will be able to take her daughter with her and that you will end up having to support her. That is a guarantee. It is a common perception that women will always make out like bandits in a divorce. This is certainly very common, but it doesn't have to be the case.

 

I highly doubt that she is going to break off contact with this guy. She will probably cut out contact with him for a few days or weeks, perhaps even until after the holidays (or limited until then). She will pick it back up though and I won't be surprised if you come back and tell us that she arranged to meet him behind your back. She will act with her emotions and won't care about the logic of the situation, it's impact on your relationship or what that means for your daughter.

 

Whether you want to stay married and work things out or want a divorce, stop acting emotionally and contact a lawyer for advice. Use that advice to shape how you communicate about the subject with Sif to ensure that anything you do or talk about with her either helps you if things lead to divorce (you may not have a choice in the matter) or at the very least won't work against you. You need, let me say that again...need, to be prepared for what may come. Being prepared will help you to have shared (or sole) custody of your daughter and save yourself a lot of financial pain.

[CallMeLoki 32]

You were selfish in the endeavour of exploring an open marriage with reckless abandon. You were seeking out your fun as well, allowing Sif her fun was a part of that. Being selfish isn't inherently bad; if you don't look out for yourself, who will? You were thinking of Sif when you let her have her fun and thinking of yourself when pursuing your fun. All done with disregard for the warning signs that were present and the potential danger to your relationship...

 

Understood and agreed.

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

You were selfish in the endeavour of exploring an open marriage with reckless abandon.

 

Concur with Slevin here. Multiple, multiple people told you you were engaging in highly risky behavior on a number of fronts. You chose to ignore that advice, and went ahead anyway. It's certainly your right to do so, and I am not faulting you for that. I do think it was highly selfish, and you did not fully consider the impact this was going to have on your daughter. Like it or not, as a parent, you MUST consider everything within the context of being a parent. The children don't have a choice. You have to act in their best interests, and you chose not to consider that. Or, if you did, you chose to ignore the advice of many people here with considerably more experience in this realm than you, and take on the danger anyways. That was selfish.

 

Understand; I say this not to criticize you. First, you need to understand where it happened to fix it. Second, you asked

 

 

I highly doubt that she is going to break off contact with this guy.

 

Fully agree. Your wife absolutely broke trust. There's no reason to presume she will act as she is now saying she will. She didn't break trust just once. It was multiple, multiple times, across many incidents. Frankly and bluntly, putting trust in her at this point is an exercise in stupidity. If you choose to trust her now, you're making a very, very stupid move. Verify. For now, verify everything as often as reasonable and as you can. Eventually, if you're to make the marriage work, you're going to have to trust her implicitly again. But not now. Now, she has to earn it back, step by step, inch by inch.

 

Whether you want to stay married and work things out or want a divorce, stop acting emotionally and contact a lawyer for advice. Use that advice to shape how you communicate about the subject with Sif to ensure that anything you do or talk about with her either helps you if things lead to divorce (you may not have a choice in the matter) or at the very least won't work against you. You need, let me say that again...need, to be prepared for what may come. Being prepared will help you to have shared (or sole) custody of your daughter and save yourself a lot of financial pain.

 

Agree again. Slevin is spot on. Talking to a lawyer commits you to nothing, but will have a dramatic impact on how things progress should things spin out of control completely. If your wife does decide to move in with this 22 year old child and tries to take your daughter with her, you had better be prepared with everything you've got to prevent that from happening. You can't do that without talking to a lawyer NOW, BEFORE it happens.

 

Talking to a lawyer isn't about screwing her over. It has nothing to do with that. It's about protecting your daughter, and protecting your interests. Your wife certainly will not look out for your interests. Only you can. A friend who was going through a divorce didn't want to get a lawyer. He said he didn't want to screw over his soon to be ex-wife, just wanted it to be over. I told him that it's about protecting his own interests, and getting what he rightfully deserves. His now ex-wife had a lawyer, why shouldn't he? If he didn't get one, HE would be the one that got screwed over. Thankfully they didn't have kids. You do have a child. You must act in her best interests, and right now that means talking to a lawyer to be prepared for what appears to be a strong possibility.

 

I feel totally fucking stupid for letting this happen.

 

Go with the feeling.

 

Seriously, I don't mean that to be glib. You fucked up. You fucked up enormously. This is your wake up call. Everything you do from this point forward had better be with this very hard earned lesson in mind. Start considering the very serious consequences of your actions that can (and in this case HAVE happened) and re-evaluate everything you intend on doing within that framework.

 

I did not function as the gate-keeper like I should have.

 

I don't think that's the core problem here. But, focusing on what went wrong isn't going to help you move forward. In my opinion, the very very first step is that contact MUST be permanently broken with this kid/fuck buddy. There must be a means of continually verifying this for the time being. Second, both of you need to get into marital counseling again, and now. If you don't like the counselor, find another one. Second, do not allow external pressures on your marriage. Stop going to strip clubs, stop pursuing single women even if lightly or in jest, etc. Drop it. Focus on the relationship you have. You have a very, very long road ahead of you.

[slevin 1,374]

It's obvious to me that he put quite a bit of manipulation effort into my wife.

 

What he did or didn't do, don't let that cloud the fact that your wife went along with it willingly. Whether he studies pickup techniques, used them willfully or just naturally from his own experience doesn't matter. People can't be manipulated into doing something they don't want to do. She played her part in this and he's not to blame for her actions.

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

What he did or didn't do, don't let that cloud the fact that your wife went along with it willingly. Whether he studies pickup techniques, used them willfully or just naturally from his own experience doesn't matter. People can't be manipulated into doing something they don't want to do. She played her part in this and he's not to blame for her actions.

 

Agreed with Slevin again. I sound like a broken record

 

I just wanted to add on that you now have proof this kid wasn't telling the truth from the beginning. That should be a clear as day message to your wife that he is a liar and a cheat, and should not be trusted.

 

It's also all the more reason this jerk shouldn't be in your life...at all, much less fucking your wife.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Fully agree. Your wife absolutely broke trust. There's no reason to presume she will act as she is now saying she will. She didn't break trust just once. It was multiple, multiple times, across many incidents. Frankly and bluntly, putting trust in her at this point is an exercise in stupidity. If you choose to trust her now, you're making a very, very stupid move. Verify. For now, verify everything as often as reasonable and as you can. Eventually, if you're to make the marriage work, you're going to have to trust her implicitly again. But not now. Now, she has to earn it back, step by step, inch by inch.

 

Interesting comment. She took her home laptop to work with her today. I asked her if it was so I couldn't snoop again. She said yes, and made some other excuse. I asked her what she had to hide. She said I would find no chat logs. I said that's because you've turned chat logging off. She then asked me how I knew that, did I install something on her laptop to track what she does. The reality is that I don't have to, I'm far from a stupid man, I just implicitly trusted her.

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

Interesting comment. She took her home laptop to work with her today. I asked her if it was so I couldn't snoop again. She said yes, and made some other excuse. I asked her what she had to hide. She said I would find no chat logs. I said that's because you've turned chat logging off. She then asked me how I knew that, did I install something on her laptop to track what she does. The reality is that I don't have to, I'm far from a stupid man, I just implicitly trusted her.

 

Loki

 

There's other ways to monitor her than the chat logs. Ultimately, you can't *stop* her from cheating on you, but you can monitor and be aware of it. Check in on her at work occasionally. Go to lunch with her. Check the mileage on her car on a routine basis. If you expect to be away from home for a few hours without your daughter at home either, show up unexpectedly or do a drive by to see if there's someone else at the house. You can also hire a private detective, though that can get pricey quickly and you're better off spending the money on the lawyer first if money is an issue. Depending on the workplace, you can periodically call in asking for her desk and once the call starts being transferred, hang up. The receptionist may know she's not in that day, when your wife told you she was going to be in. Monitor cash flow, credit cards, checking accounts, etc. If she's cheating with him some place other than home, she's paying for a room somewhere.

 

This takes a lot of work, and a lot of negative suspicion on your part. It's also almost a self fulfilling act. If you look hard enough for cheating, you can find evidence of it even if it's not happening.

 

Alternatively, ignore the cheating and continue to work on the relationship as best you can, with every ounce of strength you have.

 

I would most definitely approach her with the realities of the situation; she's screwing over her daughter, going for a child half her age who can barely take care of himself, who is still living with his parents, who is a cheat and a liar and a manipulator, and that she isn't "in love", she is feeling new relationship euphoria, something she hasn't felt in 12+ years, and she is thoroughly addicted to the rush.

 

Billions of people feel that rush. The realities of a long term relationship will set in within a year, probably sooner, and then she'll realize how bad of a choice this child is. But for now, she can't get enough of his fucking and she'll believe he's the one true love for her. Count on it. She'll continue fucking him for months yet, the more often the better.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Alternatively, ignore the cheating and continue to work on the relationship as best you can, with every ounce of strength you have.

 

This is my mindset. I'm not sure I'd call this cheating, but I do fee very betrayed based on her chat log. I'm hurt and angry at her right now, but the reality is that she's still my wife as of the moment, the mother of our child, and I do care what happens to her...I don't want her to suffer any harm, and I really mean that.

 

I asked her this morning if she had attempted to communicate with him last night. She said "yes". I asked her again to cut off all communication with him. She refused..."Don't tell me what to do or what friends I can have". Ya know, just a couple days ago, she asked me to protect her from herself...she's completely following her emotions and I think she knows that...I'm trying to protect her from herself, but if she won't cooperate there's nothing I can do.

 

Long-term, if she wants to seperate/divorce/whatever and go have a relationship with this 22 yr old, I'm not going to stop her...if that's what she truly wants, I'm not going to stand in the way. That's her decision. If she doesn't want to be with me, I'm not going to force her to. (Assuming she made that choice, the thing I would insist on is that our daughter be insulated from their relationship. He IS essentially a kid...Sif has said so herself.) However, I don't think Sif is capable of making good decisions right now...she's acting purely on emotions, and I think she knows that. I know she's struggling, and I know that things don't *look right*, but I also know this woman has a good heart.

 

She wants to seperate and the reason is for us to take ourselves out of the fray. She assures me that her intention is not to go hook up with the 22 yr old, and I do believe her. I have to admit, it very well might be a good thing for us to spend some time apart. I don't know where it comes from sometimes, but I do have some faith in this person.

 

Loki

[slevin 1,374]

She wants to seperate and the reason is for us to take ourselves out of the fray. She assures me that her intention is not to go hook up with the 22 yr old, and I do believe her. I have to admit, it very well might be a good thing for us to spend some time apart. I don't know where it comes from sometimes, but I do have some faith in this person.

 

Loki

 

You are taking very big risks right now by continuing to try and manage this on your own and by looking out for her interests before your own. Acting like that got you to this position in the first place and it is going to end with you getting screwed over in a divorce if you don't act right now. The second you separate she is going to go see this kid, that much is obvious from this far away.

 

Call a lawyer today. Stop thinking about what is best for her and start thinking about what is best for you and your child. You say that you don't want to hurt her or do her any harm; looking out for your interests and the interests of your child does not hurt her. Look after yourself first, then ensure that she is ok.

 

Stop talking to her about any of this until you have gotten advice from a lawyer. I can not stress how badly this is going right now. What is it going to take for you to realize that some things you shouldn't learn from experience? You thought you and Sif would be fine learning from experience while exploring an open marriage. You ignored a lot of sagely advice and warnings from very experienced couples on here. You are doing the same thing right now. The potential for divorce is not something you want to learn how to manage through experience. Seek professional advice, research how to manage the situation, seek out stories of divorce situations where the man took action.

 

Stop waiting for her to decide what she wants to do. Be a man, decide what you want and act on it. If you want a divorce go file for one. If you want to work your relationship out then seek legal advice, cover your bases for if separation and a divorce happens then work on making your marriage work.

[Chicup 41]

She wants to seperate and the reason is for us to take ourselves out of the fray. She assures me that her intention is not to go hook up with the 22 yr old, and I do believe her.

Loki

 

 

 

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

I'm not sure I'd call this cheating

 

It is cheating. You don't have to be in the act of fucking someone without permission from your spouse to be cheating. Far from it. She can cheat on you without seeing him even in person. She's blatantly, arrogantly cheating. She continues to cheat every day.

 

I do believe her.

 

You're nuts if you believe anything she says right now. Certifiable.

 

STOP believing her, and make it so that her lies do not matter anymore. Protect your daughter. ASAP. This woman is taking you down, and taking her daughter down in the process.

 

If you think for a second that she won't immediately go fuck her child toy when she moves out, you're deluding yourself.

 

Wake up. Please. For your daughter's good, if you won't do it for yourself.

[Alura 2,774]

Damn, Loki!

 

You've gotten a lot of good advice from the folks here and have taken some of it.

 

Sif had a chance for equally good advice but got pissed off instead of considering what these wise folks had to say. Now she won't listen to anything because it's not what she wants to hear. She insisted there would be no problems connected to her driving 200 miles to meet an internet stranger. Would you say a situation without problems has developed since?

 

Are you facing this situation in the same way she is?

 

I can understand Chicup's feeling that he's banging his head in trying to help you. Many of us feel that way.

 

Mr. Alura

[Alura 2,774]

 

She wants to seperate and the reason is for us to take ourselves out of the fray. She assures me that her intention is not to go hook up with the 22 yr old, and I do believe her. I have to admit, it very well might be a good thing for us to spend some time apart. I don't know where it comes from sometimes, but I do have some faith in this person.

 

Loki

 

Faith in Sif and a few bucks will get you a cup of coffee these days.

 

Is she willing to leave your daughter behind during the separation?

 

Mr. Alura

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

Is she willing to leave your daughter behind during the separation?

 

Let's hope so. Else, this is going to get even uglier, and rapidly.

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

What's the record for longest thread on this forum? I suspect this thread is approaching the record...

[NCfuncouple98 367]

And as a newbie, I painstakingly read through each and every post. Need more Redbull ow! Whew.

 

I have a friend going through a rough marriage and open relationship - thought THAT was full of drama. Sent her to this board and this particular post for insight - so much better than me doing a play-by-play!

[WannabeSif 34]

Interesting comment. She took her home laptop to work with her today. I asked her if it was so I couldn't snoop again. She said yes, and made some other excuse. I asked her what she had to hide. She said I would find no chat logs. I said that's because you've turned chat logging off. She then asked me how I knew that, did I install something on her laptop to track what she does. The reality is that I don't have to, I'm far from a stupid man, I just implicitly trusted her.

 

Loki

 

Ok, I am not in love with the 22 year old, he is in love with me, and I am certainly not stupid enough to run away with a young man young enough to be my son who does not have a job. I have betrayed no one. I was very pissed at my husband for not following his detailed email instructions on what my weekend should be like. All he had to do was call a stop. He did not, instead, I did it my self. I am sick and tired of being bashed by a man that selfishly wants things only his way, and since he has not had any luck yet, he is not very happy. Did I want more from this young man? Hell yes I did. The last time was much better, the one time we did it, and who wouldnt want more sex? Practive makes perfect. But when I realized that he felt more for me than he should, which he admitted, I told my husband. I was very angry and hurt, and my husband acted like a child that weekend, and I will not go into details, but I ended up saying mean things to him and he broke all my sex toys in retaliation. I have lots of fault here, and I do want my friend back as a FRIEND. Truth is, my hubby wanted all this hoo haa, then when i fell in step and got lucky, well it went haywire. The reason I talked angrily about my husband to my friend is that I could not talk to my husband; he would not hear of any wrongdoing on his part. I do not need to defend myself, but I am not the only "guilty" party here. As far as the house, the car, HA HA. He can settle with me fairly and quietly or I will put out my armor along with his. He is not innocent folks, and this will get me a whole other round of hell here at home, but I dont care anymore. I have admitted and apologized for my faults. Did I have a big crush? Yes. Did I want it soon after, yes, the fantasy was not fulfilled. Did I eventually get over that, yep. Only reason hubby doesnt know is that I cannot talk to him about it for fear of repercussions, just like I feel now. So you all have a ball telling him to lawyer up, etc. I have done nothing that he did not condone and authorize in writing, and he signed a Playtime agreement. Methinks that both parties are set to "go queitly"

[WannabeSif 34]

You were selfish in the endeavour of exploring an open marriage with reckless abandon. You were seeking out your fun as well, allowing Sif her fun was a part of that. Being selfish isn't inherently bad; if you don't look out for yourself, who will? You were thinking of Sif when you let her have her fun and thinking of yourself when pursuing your fun. All done with disregard for the warning signs that were present and the potential danger to your relationship. Sif has shown that she won't think about what is best for you when it comes to her emotional reactions to things and if I was in your shoes it would be a very long time before I could trust her again.

 

Confronting her with this was the wrong move, in my opinion. You are reacting emotionally to a situation that demands thoughtful logic and planning. You're also continuing to attribute logical thought processes to Sif when she has consistently demonstrated that she will always act emotionally. You say she won't up and move 3 hours away with live with a guy who lives with his parents? I disagree. Based on everything in this thread I wouldn't be surprised to hear you come back and say that she has decided to move into an apartment with him. I also guarantee that she assumes she will be able to take her daughter with her and that you will end up having to support her. That is a guarantee. It is a common perception that women will always make out like bandits in a divorce. This is certainly very common, but it doesn't have to be the case.

 

I highly doubt that she is going to break off contact with this guy. She will probably cut out contact with him for a few days or weeks, perhaps even until after the holidays (or limited until then). She will pick it back up though and I won't be surprised if you come back and tell us that she arranged to meet him behind your back. She will act with her emotions and won't care about the logic of the situation, it's impact on your relationship or what that means for your daughter.

 

Whether you want to stay married and work things out or want a divorce, stop acting emotionally and contact a lawyer for advice. Use that advice to shape how you communicate about the subject with Sif to ensure that anything you do or talk about with her either helps you if things lead to divorce (you may not have a choice in the matter) or at the very least won't work against you. You need, let me say that again...need, to be prepared for what may come. Being prepared will help you to have shared (or sole) custody of your daughter and save yourself a lot of financial pain.

 

BULLSHIT! I am not running off with anyone. I just need time to myself to recover mainly from the hurt in our marriage cause by ourselves. No one will be taking my daughter from me, and no one will be taking everything from me at all. My husband has consistenly told me I should not SNOOP, and that I can not tell him who to and not to socialize with. He has not right to control me. I am over the sex, it was not that great, and I was caught up in the feeling of someone caring for me like I was precious. It was fantasy. Now I know that he felt more, and he has shut himself off. Did that hurt? FUCK YES. But I do not tell my husband he cannot be friends with one of our best girlfriends that he wrote a letter to asking her to fuck him for a weekend. Again, i reiterate, you guys dont want to send him down this sneaky legal road. I am a good mother, I have been a good wife, and I run a good household. I am not in love with a man young enough to be me son. My main concern is taking care of my child, and getting over the mental anquish my marriage has caused so I can either continue with it or move on. Trust me folks, sexual satisfaction is the last thing on my mind. If any of you would like to get to know me before you judge me by hearing one tilted side, so be it, otherwise, perhaps my attorney will be contacting you regarding slander and defamation of character. Hope those words are not too big for you to understand.!!

[WannabeSif 34]

There's other ways to monitor her than the chat logs. Ultimately, you can't *stop* her from cheating on you, but you can monitor and be aware of it. Check in on her at work occasionally. Go to lunch with her. Check the mileage on her car on a routine basis. If you expect to be away from home for a few hours without your daughter at home either, show up unexpectedly or do a drive by to see if there's someone else at the house. You can also hire a private detective, though that can get pricey quickly and you're better off spending the money on the lawyer first if money is an issue. Depending on the workplace, you can periodically call in asking for her desk and once the call starts being transferred, hang up. The receptionist may know she's not in that day, when your wife told you she was going to be in. Monitor cash flow, credit cards, checking accounts, etc. If she's cheating with him some place other than home, she's paying for a room somewhere.

 

This takes a lot of work, and a lot of negative suspicion on your part. It's also almost a self fulfilling act. If you look hard enough for cheating, you can find evidence of it even if it's not happening.

 

Alternatively, ignore the cheating and continue to work on the relationship as best you can, with every ounce of strength you have.

 

I would most definitely approach her with the realities of the situation; she's screwing over her daughter, going for a child half her age who can barely take care of himself, who is still living with his parents, who is a cheat and a liar and a manipulator, and that she isn't "in love", she is feeling new relationship euphoria, something she hasn't felt in 12+ years, and she is thoroughly addicted to the rush.

 

Billions of people feel that rush. The realities of a long term relationship will set in within a year, probably sooner, and then she'll realize how bad of a choice this child is. But for now, she can't get enough of his fucking and she'll believe he's the one true love for her. Count on it. She'll continue fucking him for months yet, the more often the better.

 

 

Another BULLSHIT! I work all day, do not take a lunch, then I come home. Ask hubby why he is at the bars Wed-Sat nights, and I am home with my daughter. I got a little attention. I wont be doing it again. And no one needs to snoop on me. You are all a bunch of paranoids. I dont need to cheat. My husband gave me permission to fuck and I did. I would never do it behind his back. After out last botched weekend he encouraged me to go back to Va to do it again......I dont need another relationship with a man. If my marriage does not work out, then I will invest in duracell and make sure my daughter grows up with self esteem and doesnt take any bullshit. This thread is insane...I REPEAT: I AM NOT A CHEATER...I HAD A FEW ENCOUNTERS IN AN OPEN RELATIONSHIP. IT DID NOT GO WELL FOR MY HUSBAND, THE BOY, OR ME. YOU WERE ALL RIGHT. NOW PLEASE STOP TELLING MY HUSBAND ALL THIS SHIT. ALL I WANT IS MY NORMAL LIFE BACK.

[Chicup 41]

otherwise, perhaps my attorney will be contacting you regarding slander and defamation of character. Hope those words are not too big for you to understand.!!

 

 

Slander of someone who we don't even know the name of on the interwebs, how have you been harmed, what did it cost you? You might want to look at such things up before threatening people.

 

The only one you could sue potentially for slander, or really its libel but I'm sure you knew that, is your husband, but the whole concept is nonsensical here.

[Alura 2,774]

ALL I WANT IS MY NORMAL LIFE BACK.

 

That's a laudable desire, Sif. I hope you and Loki learn to talk to each other to learn, not to accuse, and that both of you are able to put this all behind you and concentrate on developing your marriage and raising a strong and well-balanced daughter.

 

As you'll recall, the folks on this board advised you in the beginning not to travel down this road but both of you insisted that it would be alright. Both of you need to accept the blame for this unfortunate turn of events and learn how to correct the situation.

 

Hanging out at the bars is never a good thing for a marriage. Nor is a 22-year-old who is in love with you. Both need to become a part of the past.

 

By the way, typing in all caps is considered to be rude on this website. It's like yelling at people.

 

Mr. Alura

[CallMeLoki 32]

Here are the facts as I see them. Sif says I ripped the fantasy right out from under her that weekend. I'm trying to understand how she can see it that way because I don't. Folks (including me) told her many times "it might not go exactly as planned, so don't have the expectations too high". I made the guy feel as comfortable as I could when he got here Fri. I overlooked her breaking our rules, I overlooked not being included in the play yet again, I even stayed at a friend's house that Fri night so they could have a wild romp without me here getting in the way (again, doing what I'd want her to do for me). I was very uncomfortable when I got home Sat afternoon. Yes, I was VERY uncomfortable...imagine that. I wasn't rude to him, I wasn't aggressive to him, I didn't do him any harm at all...I was umcomfortable as hell and didn't know what to do or say, so I did nothing.

 

My main "crime" in the weekend from hell was being uncomfortable and telling Sif that I was. We had agreed to stop anything that made the other uncomfortable...ANYTHING...sex, non-sex, chatting, whatever...all the uncomfortable one had to do was say so. I said so, and have gotten punished for ruining her weekend. Well, the reality is that all three of us "ruined it"...it didn't go as planned, and all three of us contributed to that. Sif can blame me all she wants. He came blame me all he wants. The facts are that they got the privilege to fuck each other two weekends with my blessing. Sounds like they both came out pretty well to me.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Ya know, the only friggin' part of this I've gotten to actually enjoy has been hitting some bars and sarging for single women. That's pretty much it. At least Sif joined me once for that...we went to the ex-stripper waitresses birthday party, but then even that ended in drama.

 

Alright....I shouldn't post any more tonight...as you can tell I'm a little pissed.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Hanging out at the bars is never a good thing for a marriage...

 

Alura...I would totally agree with that statement in general. However, in this specific case (an open marriage), you have to consider that there are few single women within the swinger community that are not bi-sexual/bi-curious. Sif went back and forth many times on the idea of an FMF threesome. I finally realized that I had to find two single women who are bi-curious...the best place to find that is the singles community, not the swinger community.

 

Loki

[fun4Ds 1,098]

Loki, I think you need to listen to Sif. I know I just did ! (sounds pretty valid to me)

 

Let this situation diffuse, it really needs too !

[CallMeLoki 32]

Believe me Fun4Ds, I'm trying to let it diffuse...last night the boy-toy and Sif talked on the phone while I was gone, and Sif inflicted more cutting on herself. It gives me this pit in my stomach. The self-mutilation happens almost every time she has communicated with him since the weekend from hell...I don't think she's ever done this before. Right now, I'm just trying to do damage control to protect my wife from any harm, even though she doesn't believe that my intentions are good. It's very difficult to protect someone who doesn't trust your intentions and doesn't want to be protected. But I'm sure I'm doing the right thing at the moment. I'm just hoping she will come to her senses and realize I'm trying to protect her by telling her to not communicate with him.

 

Loki

[Chicup 41]

Jesus tap dancing Christ.

 

Its time you stop posting and time you get her to a psychiatrist. Adult cutting is not exactly common and this goes beyond just fucking some kid.

[fun4Ds 1,098]

May we speak to Sif on the phone ?

 

PM the #

[CallMeLoki 32]

Jesus tap dancing Christ.

 

Its time you stop posting and time you get her to a psychiatrist. Adult cutting is not exactly common and this goes beyond just fucking some kid.

 

She is in therapy for herself, and we are in marriage counseling for both of us. This ordeal has unleashed some psychological demons for Sif that I don't understand and that none of the three of us would have ever anticipated. I hope you now see why I'm doing my best to put my own hurt and anger aside and do what is best for her.

 

Loki

[WannabeSif 34]

Jesus tap dancing Christ.

 

Its time you stop posting and time you get her to a psychiatrist. Adult cutting is not exactly common and this goes beyond just fucking some kid.

 

Yes, I am in therapy, and have been for a long time. And FINALLY, someone realizes this goes beyone fucking some kid. The resume is as follows:

 

1) Controlling Father, could never do anything right.

2) Kidnapped and raped at age 17 by two men, resulting in one trial being a mistrial and the second resulting in life sentences for both. This was the 80s, they put your name and all the details in the newpaper then.

3) Concurrent with #2, and until age 27, I lived with a man who inflicted severe mental and physical abuse on me. Let's see, the day the first space shuttle blew up he was drunk when I got home, proceeded to pick me up and slam me face down on the floor, kicked me in the ribs the next day, and poured whiskey on me. How do you explain the face burns you get from a wooden floor?

4)Finally would leave the BF above off and on only to date men who were no good for me. I would attach myself, needing the male attention, and they could give a shit less about me. Until I met Loki.

5)Told Loki all about my past, he decided to marry me anyway. I will not disclose his childhood, that is for him.

6)Bottom line, folks, I am not in love with 22 year, but I do value him as a friend. He is smart, genuine, and gives my brain food. Now, thanks to Sif he thinks I am crazy. If I had known that he would get too attached, then I would have stopped it, and yes you folks here warned me. My bad.

7)Adult cutting - rare, but possible. You see, I never had a voice as a child. I was to do as told, and never was allowed to have an opinion. The only outlet I had was school, and there I succeeded and became quite vocal and opinionated. Everyone appreciated it but my dad. I cut because of the pain I feel of loss, not just of BF, Loki has seen to that for me, but loss of ME. I cannot talk to Loki without him turning events around on me. I have faults and problems, and I admit them. And they are not his fault. But I feel like I cannot state opinions or disagree with him, and then I just blow. He has no idea how it feels to be talked into going outside your marriage, being made to feel it is ok, then being blamed if things don't go his way. See folks, I quickly realized that I could not do MMF because I was raped by two men. Boyfriend accepted this maturely.

 

My other problem, and the one that hubby has an issue with is name calling, or verbal abuse as he now calls it. I hold my feelings in, and instead of calmly trying to talk about it, i blow, i call him names, i say mean things. It is not right, but it is uncontrollable. I started cutting to avoid letting my anger out on him verbally.

 

Why am I airing this dirty laundry? Why not? I assure you folks that I am going everything I can to keep myself together, and I will succeed. As you can see, I have faced much greater diversity than this event, but this event actually triggered most of the aggression I never dealt with, and having an unsympathetic husband who continues to throw all he did for me in my face does not help. Perhaps he just does not know how to handle it, but instead of telling me all he did for me he could start with forgetting about what quest we were on and focusing on his wife. Thanks for all your advice.

[WannabeSif 34]

You are taking very big risks right now by continuing to try and manage this on your own and by looking out for her interests before your own. Acting like that got you to this position in the first place and it is going to end with you getting screwed over in a divorce if you don't act right now. The second you separate she is going to go see this kid, that much is obvious from this far away.

 

Call a lawyer today. Stop thinking about what is best for her and start thinking about what is best for you and your child. You say that you don't want to hurt her or do her any harm; looking out for your interests and the interests of your child does not hurt her. Look after yourself first, then ensure that she is ok.

 

Stop talking to her about any of this until you have gotten advice from a lawyer. I can not stress how badly this is going right now. What is it going to take for you to realize that some things you shouldn't learn from experience? You thought you and Sif would be fine learning from experience while exploring an open marriage. You ignored a lot of sagely advice and warnings from very experienced couples on here. You are doing the same thing right now. The potential for divorce is not something you want to learn how to manage through experience. Seek professional advice, research how to manage the situation, seek out stories of divorce situations where the man took action.

 

Stop waiting for her to decide what she wants to do. Be a man, decide what you want and act on it. If you want a divorce go file for one. If you want to work your relationship out then seek legal advice, cover your bases for if separation and a divorce happens then work on making your marriage work.

 

 

Again, I am not going to see the kid. Our marriage has had these same problems on and off for almost it's entirety. In April of this year hubby wanted to divorce, we worked on it. The mistake we made was the one WE made together--taking sex outside of our marriage. Once I get into my apartment with the 6 month lease, and we are not fighting daily, and we are going to marriage counseling, perhaps we can make the marriage work again. I do LOVE my husband, and my daughter, and I want my FAMILY to be together. Again, a boy young enough to be my son without a job is not an option for a relationship. Never has been. So stop telling husband that I am running off. You do not know me, so you cannot say that. I want my life back, not a new one. I want was is best for my daughter, which is to have a loving home with a loving mom and dad. If it takes some time apart to shield her from the fighting and tears, then that is what I will do. And according to our marriage counselor, both of us need individual counseling, which I have been in for months and months. So, do you want to be me $10,000 on your statement that I am running off with a kid? I will gladly wager that because I know that its not true.

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

otherwise, perhaps my attorney will be contacting you regarding slander and defamation of character. Hope those words are not too big for you to understand.!!

 

I am reading them quite carefully. Not because of the legal threat (it's empty; your real name isn't attached anywhere here. There's no character being defamed), but because I see a marriage in absolute chaos. ALL the more reason that lawyers should be involved.

 

I do not weep for you and your husband. Much of the recent situation is self inflicted. I do weep for your daughter.

 

If you truly care about your daughter, permanently get rid of the 22 year old from your life. It's not about your husband telling you who you can and can't be friends with. It's not about whether he is "genuine" (he isn't; not by a LONG shot), and a good fried. His presence in your lives is absolutely incendiary. If you truly want there to be any chance that this marriage will work, he MUST be gone...forever.

 

Your, your husband, and your marriage are beyond any real help this board can provide. I wish you all the best.

[CallMeLoki 32]

It's not about your husband telling you who you can and can't be friends with. It's not about whether he is "genuine" (he isn't; not by a LONG shot), and a good fried. His presence in your lives is absolutely incendiary.

 

Exactly. This is why I asked Sif to stop communicating with him, and why I asked him to stop communicating with her after I realized she was cutting herself because of it and after I realized she was still communicating with him after she said she was not. (And just for the record, I didn't tell him she was cutting herself...she did that in a chat. If he thinks she's crazy, it's not because I told him that.) After I snooped out Sif's chat log 4 days ago, I contacted him and told him to stop talking to her because it was hurting her and us. And this was after my wife had said that she needed me to "protect her from herself". (About two weeks after the weekend from hell, I had contacted him and just asked him to continue their friendship...at that time I felt like his friendship was a good thing for Sif, and I wanted the friendship part of it to continue for her. This was before I read her chat log though. And just for the record, the week after the weekend from hell, I had told her that she could go back to his area for another weekend alone if that would make her feel like her experience was "complete"...I was trying to make up for my part in the weekend not turning out right.) This is one of those situations where anything that happens is going to be "my fault", but I don't care...I'm going to do what I know is the right thing for Sif and for our family.

 

I don't blame my wife for this mess...I keep saying that all three of us were involved, all three of us made mistakes and bad decisions, and all three of us are responsible. There's a chain of events that led up to this, but all of us contributed to that chain of events. That said, I do hold her responsible for the dishonesty that has transpired over the past week or two.

 

Loki