Fairness question...open marriage

[CallMeLoki 32]

To make a long story short...my wife and I considered swinging as a couple, my wife felt more comfortable "swinging" alone, ie. having more of an "open marriage". It was a bit of a stretch for me, but I said "OK, as long as we keep it all fair to each other." She's already had her first encounter with her cyber-BF, I'm still working to have my first encounter. (And yes, I know the open marriage approach works against me as far as sex goes, but works for me in terms of relationships with women....there's exposure on both sides, and I realize that.) She has lined up her second encounter already.

 

Tonight we had an argument because she felt like I implied she'd already had an encounter to the female friend that I was pursuing (she's already discussed this female friend with her cyber-BF), and I told her that she needs to just cancel this second encounter until I've had my first. (I won't tell you what she said to that, but it was actually quite hurtful to me.) So, is this fair? In "conventional" swinging, you obviously don't have these kinds of issues...either you both play or neither play. We agreed in writing to be totally fair to each other and help each other line up encounters. She IS working to help me. I originally said "yes, go ahead with the 2nd encounter" because I truly want her to enjoy this and get what she wants and needs out of it, and I saw her working for me too. Now I'm questioning whether that was a good decision after her response to me about telling her I think she should cancel her 2nd encounter.

 

Here's my main question: Is it fair for me to ask her to wait for me, or no?

 

Post your thoughts please.

[Chicup 41]

Loki I feel you are a tragedy in the making.

 

Let me give you a personal anecdote to maybe show how this sort of thing should work.

 

A few years ago we had a local couple we were very good friends with as well as swingers with. We had sex with them on multiple occasions and everyone was very comfortable. We knew and still know them very well to say the least, even met their parents on occasion.

 

Well back when we were still new to swinging, I had a MFM with them with my wife's permission when she was out of town, in fact on the other side of the planet.

 

I had one or two threesomes with them after that when I happened to be over at their place but each time I had to CALL her at home to get her permission. Was it fair or did it make any logical sense? Hell no, but it was her call because her comfort level was what was important. Once when I called she just wasn't comfortable with it and we didn't do anything. She didn't feel it was right for me to play alone if she was in town, she felt left out, and the important thing is we all honored that without hard feelings or going behind her back which we could have easily done.

 

This isn't about logic, fairness, or anything like this. It is visceral and emotional, and you always keep your SO happy first and when I say that, it doesn't mean you let her go play with a boy toy to make her happy, and you unhappy, what it means is she doesn't do things which will make you hurt inside. Getting to have extramarital sex is a bonus, it is icing on the cake, but you don't ignore the cake.

[sexcupid 809]

Here's the deal...even in 'traditional' swinging, there are still couples that try to only swing with one half of a couple or that go to events/parties that whatever happens is all ok. At that party perhaps the wife has sex with 5 guys and her hubby either doesn't play at all or has less partners (hypothetical situation...but we've seen couples that do party this way...the wife is getting laid by 3-5 guys and the hubby is either just socializing or only plays with 1 or 2 other ladies).

 

It's whatever you are comfortable with. To hell with 'fair'. That is subjective depending on who's perspective you are looking at it from (you think it's fair to ask her to postpone...and she doesn't). For the most part, we like to keep things on an even playing field...like a tit for tat kind of thing. Why? Because it keeps that sense of fairness/evenness there. That's just us.

 

Good luck!

[The Fuse 1,012]

To make a long story short...my wife and I considered swinging as a couple, my wife felt more comfortable "swinging" alone, ie. having more of an "open marriage". {snip}

 

Here's my main question: Is it fair for me to ask her to wait for me, or no?

 

Post your thoughts please.

Hmm... there is a lot to chew on here. The previous poster is right in that every couple should do what makes them BOTH feel comfortable. I cannot possibly know what your relationship is like, but I cannot help but wonder why your wife is more comfortable "swinging" without you. There could be a problem lurking there, especially given that she said something hurtful to you when you tried to get her to hold back in the name of fairness.

 

I wonder why you think swinging alone would help you in your relationships with other women. As a swinging wife, I like a man much better when I see that his relationship with his wife is solid and loving. I feel much more comfortable developing a friendship with a playmate who is in a strong marriage that I can see. And not least, like many swinging wives, men swinging without partners are more or less off-limits to me, because Mr. Fuse and I swing together. Those are two big strikes against you in your situation. Can you describe what the advantages are?

 

And about whether you are being "fair"... well... as I mentioned above, I personally think that is not quite the right question, because "counting" can get really technical. Mr. Fuse and I have had many a discussion about this subject, especially when we first started swinging. Women get many more chances to play than men, in general, and Mr. Fuse didn't want me to leave him behind. It would have been very easy for me to do that, if he hadn't been careful about it. And at times I resented not being able to do things I wanted to do. But for us, it is better to stay together and make swinging a joint activity except for the occasional time.

 

In my opinion, the answer is: If you feel like she is taking advantage of the situation or trying to do too much while you are not getting to do enough, then you are right for asking her to put the brakes on. From the discomfort you expressed, it sounds like you are past that threshold.

[it'sso 198]

My opinion? If she is swinging alone and getting it, and you are swinging alone and not getting it, then there is different label used to describe your relationship.

[Playful1 434]

Ah, keeping count....never been a good idea in my experience.

 

It's one thing to discuss your concerns (without making accusations or demands) and a whole 'nother thing to tell someone they can't/shouldn't/etc do something until you can do it.

 

If you're not comfortable with doing things separately, because of the difference in how often you will play (let me tell you, you will never get as many offers as she will), then you need to discuss that, and maybe try something like swinging, but in separate rooms or something.

 

This sounds like it will blow up in your face soon otherwise. It's not fair of you to dictate how often she gets to go play based on how often you do...just as it's not fair of her to ignore your concerns.

[wlhotwife 63]

Wow, Loki...what a can of worms.

 

I think the only way you can have "fairness and equality" in an open marriage is if you look at it over the long term. There are going to be situations like this where one of you is getting more action than the other for some period of time. Trying to keep the score even over the short term is going to prove to be a hassle and a source of conflict between you two.

 

Could you look at the issue in a different way perhaps, appreciating that your wife is growing and exploring her sexuality, and knowing that things may never be completely even as far as number of partners, experiences, etc.? If that is making a positive impact on your relationship, then who cares about the numbers and timing?

[CallMeLoki 32]

I wonder why you think swinging alone would help you in your relationships with other women.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't state what I meant very clearly. It's very easy for women to find sex only from men (that's what most men are looking for)...it's very easy for men to find relationships with women (that's what most women are looking for). By having an "open marriage", there's exposure for both of us...the exposure for me is that she can have encounters more frequently or with more different partners that I could simply because she's a woman, and that could grow into more if she let it. The exposure for her is that I'll form friendships and sexual relationships with women that could easily grow into more if I let it, simply because I'm a man. That's what I meant...I see the exposure to each of us as pretty much equal. I might be wrong, but I know she has no problem getting sex and I have no problem forming friendships with women (some of whom will want or be open to recreational sex).

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

From reading all your posts on the Board, what stands out most is that you and your wife can't have read much on here about swinging or open marriages (read the Poly forum to get a feel for the transition swinging can take to poly or to very close "relationships" that can develop from swinging that crosses over to poly).

 

It seems to me that you are making a lot of assumptions about what you and your wife have already delved into without knowing much beforehand. That's dangerous for a marriage.

 

So many experienced swingers, and some members who are in open marriages and poly relationships have advised you, yet, you don't seem to be hearing what they have to say.

 

I think you are blinded by what you want and are still thinking with your penis. Your head so badly wants to match what your penis desires that you are trying to justify your reasoning.

 

If your wife is willing to wait to play again only after you do, she may be waiting six months, a year...or more. That's how it can go.

[CallMeLoki 32]

I think you are blinded by what you want and are still thinking with your penis. Your head so badly wants to match what your penis desires that you are trying to justify your reasoning.

 

I'm thinking with my heart, thank you very much. When my wife said she'd rather play alone than together (at least this first time), I thought it over, considered her reasons, and said "OK." My original intention was that we play together, but I stretched for her because I wanted her to be happy and get what she wanted and needed out of it. How is that thinking with my dick?

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

 

I'm thinking with my heart, thank you very much. When my wife said she'd rather play alone than together (at least this first time), I thought it over, considered her reasons, and said "OK." My original intention was that we play together, but I stretched for her because I wanted her to be happy and get what she wanted and needed out of it. How is that thinking with my dick?

But can't you admit that your ultimate goal - and the reason you "stretched" for your wife - was because in the end you'd get your penis satisfied through a sexual encounter with a woman?

 

People don't start looking for sexual relationships outside of marriage because of what their heart tells them, they do it because of the desire to experience sex with others. The heart comes into play to balance the whole process. And then our head works to make good decisions despite what our penis/vagina wants.

 

How many threads have you and your wife read on the Board? Have you discussed those threads with each other? Read 100 and you'll only have had a nice appetizer. Read 500 and you may see your situation much differently than you do right now.

[The Fuse 1,012]

I'm sorry, I didn't state what I meant very clearly. It's very easy for women to find sex only from men (that's what most men are looking for)...it's very easy for men to find relationships with women (that's what most women are looking for). By having an "open marriage", there's exposure for both of us...the exposure for me is that she can have encounters more frequently or with more different partners that I could simply because she's a woman, and that could grow into more if she let it. The exposure for her is that I'll form friendships and sexual relationships with women that could easily grow into more if I let it, simply because I'm a man. That's what I meant...I see the exposure to each of us as pretty much equal. I might be wrong, but I know she has no problem getting sex and I have no problem forming friendships with women (some of whom will want or be open to recreational sex).

Wow, my head is spinning just a little. Bear with me... I'll just look at your avatar for a moment. Damn, that's hot.

 

I would love to hear from Sif on this thread, to get her perspective. I'm sure she would have a lot to tell us.

 

More questions.... If she has no problem getting sex, which I'm sure is true from your SLS picture, then why does she feel the need to increase her odds even more by going out without you? This doesn't make sense to me, so I'm thinking there is something else at work here. She would still not have any problem if you two were to swing as a couple. Then, things would be much more likely to be "fair" because you'd be doing it together. She'd get more because your chances would also increase. If she is really interested in being "fair", then she would increase her own chances by seeking couples with you. Help her... help you .

 

If she is still interested in branching out on her own, well gee, that could be exciting. I would suggest that if one of your female friends outside swinging wanted to take it further, then perhaps *after* you do something with one of them, then she could arrange another solo encounter for herself. But since it is SOOOOO much harder for men swinging alone to "close the deal", perhaps you ought to arrange it so that you go first. LikeMinds321 is right. It is VERY difficult for a single man to hook up. It can take a very long time.

 

As to you finding relationships because "that's what most women want"... whoa. I've got to back up here... whew... You seem to be coming from a place where you are really very focused on what your wife wants, and what other women want (or what you think they want). It's really very sweet. However, I think you are somewhat blinded, maybe not by your cock, but by your perceptions. And if you are not careful, these perceptions can get you and your marriage in a lot of trouble. I may seem harsh, but honestly you seem very nice (as well as very hot ) and like you are bending over backwards. So I hope what we are all saying to you, including me, helps you even if you don't like me for it. Okay... so as far as relationships being what women want, here goes. In swinging, most women are married and have a relationship already. In swinging they want sex and light friendship, not relationships that go very deep at all. For instance, your wife. I'm assuming she does not want a relationship outside your marriage. Why should other wives be different? (So that's one whole group painted with a broad brush. Onward...)

 

Outside of swinging, where I'm assuming your potential encounters come from, most women want relationships, but in the end they don't want to share. They want their own. Down that road, trouble lies. Single women swingers probably fall in this category too. They might just be having fun, but eventually they do want a relationship. If you form one with one of them, they might like it a little too much.

 

So if you are really after sex, and some light friendship, not a relationship outside your marriage, (are you??), then I think your best bet is to stick with swingers. If you are looking for a relationship outside your marriage, then you are poly. That is a whole new subject and it becomes infinitely more complicated, especially if your wife is not part of it, in which case it becomes destructive to your marriage.

 

Oh and one more thing -- the "relative exposure" train of thought is strange. (Is one of you a lawyer? That plus the whole "agreed in writing" thing...) It might help to think about what each of you gains from an agreement rather than what risks it exposes each of you to.

 

I hope some of this makes sense. I really hope that you and your wife can both slow down and not do or say anything irrevocable before you can agree on something that makes you both comfortable.

[2inSanDiego4u 181]

Loki, after reading your other thread (wow, that was a long read!) and this one as well, here is our take on your situation:

 

Slow things down, a lot. It does not sound like you are both on the same page any more. If she is getting mad that you don't want her to proceed, that is as clear a sign as any that you need to slow down and re-evaluate things. Maybe this type of open/poly arrangement is not going to work for you guys. Maybe some discussion about traditional swinging with couples is in order. That tends to keep things on an even keel. There are many directions which this can take, but you both need to stop and re-think everything, and keep the communications open between the two of you as well.

 

On a final note, your latest posts have us thinking like Chicup, that things are headed to a bad place for the two of you. Hopefully that is not the case.

[socolais 696]

Loki I feel you are a tragedy in the making.

 

This isn't about logic, fairness, or anything like this. It is visceral and emotional, and you always keep your SO happy first and when I say that, it doesn't mean you let her go play with a boy toy to make her happy, and you unhappy, what it means is she doesn't do things which will make you hurt inside. Getting to have extramarital sex is a bonus, it is icing on the cake, but you don't ignore the cake.

 

From my perspective, the game you guys are playing is not swinging. If it all works for both of you and makes y'all happy then more power to you. But it sounds like things are not quite working to everyone's satisfaction.

 

It's so easy to be confused by the appeal of swinging. And it's amazing how my personal perceptions changed after WE got involved. It's all about US as a couple and it's not about either one of us getting some wild nookie on the side.

 

Here's an idea: try some encounter TOGETHER. You've started down a valid path separately and encountered some friction. Take a break and look around for an easier path. The togetherness thing may or may not work for y'all - but it's a well worn path that's at least worth some serious consideration....

[rpu3 630]

This isn't about logic, fairness, or anything like this. It is visceral and emotional, and you always keep your SO happy first and when I say that, it doesn't mean you let her go play with a boy toy to make her happy, and you unhappy, what it means is she doesn't do things which will make you hurt inside. Getting to have extramarital sex is a bonus, it is icing on the cake, but you don't ignore the cake.

 

As one in an open marriage, this sums up our priorities in our relationship quite well.

 

ETA: We've not required an even playing field. My spouse is definitely not interested in score keeping or forcing an even playing field - it is what it is and he doesn't want or need a quid pro quo arrangement. Fairness is a worthwhile goal in any relationship, but sometimes things don't work exactly the way we want it to. So we don't keep a tally of who did what and for how long.

 

If the outside relationships/activities somehow began to have a negative impact on either my spouse or our marriage, or if there's now score keeping and negative feelings based on the count, then obviously there's going to be a lot of talking and reevaluation between my spouse and I. If one is unhappy, then the gig is up for the time being. Our relationship is the priority.

[good times 991]

I am sorry that I don't have any good advice to give in this situation. I do have an observation though. That is that of all the people we know that have been unsuccessful at their attempt at an open marriage, theirs started just like yours has. In every one of them the male had the same thoughts as you and shortly after they started made the same comments. The fact is, women can find guys to play with easily, guys can't no matter how hot they are. So if you expect to get as much attention as her, or even any play partners at all, you might as well call it quits right now. Because, the overwhelming odds are, that the expectation that you will both have an equal amount of opportunity to play is bound to result in both of you being disappointed in the end. The fact is, she is looking for something that is available in abundance, and you are looking for a needle in a haystack.

[TNT 1,155]

As others have said...I don't feel this is headed anywhere good but, the following stood out to me and I wanted to comment on it...especially the parts I bolded.

 

I'm thinking with my heart, thank you very much. When my wife said she'd rather play alone than together (at least this first time), I thought it over, considered her reasons, and said "OK." My original intention was that we play together, but I stretched for her because I wanted her to be happy and get what she wanted and needed out of it. How is that thinking with my dick?

 

Thinking with your heart...well, swingers are usually in agreement with their spouse/SO that the heart stays at home when they are out playing with others.

 

Open marriages are pretty much the same way...the heart stays at home (or the main part of it, depending on the agreement of all involved) with an agreement that spending time with others is still play.

 

Poly relationships are different in that the heart not only stays at home but, it is allowed to venture out and see what else is out there that might/could benefit what's at home.

 

You asked - How is that thinking with my dick? Well, you said you wanted to play with your wife in a threesome, she said she wanted to play alone...so, on some level you thought..."Okay, I love her I'll let her play alone" But, on another level you were also thinking..."If she gets to play alone, so do I"...that's the part that was thinking with your dick and not your heart.

 

Had you been thinking TOTALLY with your heart...worrying about fairness in playtime would not have even been a consideration. You wouldn't be asking now "Is it fair that I ask her to wait until I get my turn"?

 

 

Just the way I see things, take it or leave it, your choice.

[CallMeLoki 32]

But can't you admit that your ultimate goal - and the reason you "stretched" for your wife - was because in the end you'd get your penis satisfied through a sexual encounter with a woman?

 

People don't start looking for sexual relationships outside of marriage because of what their heart tells them, they do it because of the desire to experience sex with others. The heart comes into play to balance the whole process. And then our head works to make good decisions despite what our penis/vagina wants.

...

 

I completely agree with your second paragraph.

 

If I hadn't stretched and said OK to her having alone time, I would have still gotten my penis satisfied as you put it, so that wasn't a factor in my decision. Yes, it was appealing that she gave me the option for alone time as well, but an FMF threesome is more appealing to me than alone time (with the exception of the one female friend whom I approached, and her and I both essentially decided "we should not" as the best answer given her situation and the relationships involved).

 

In my wife's defense, she asked for alone time for two reasons: 1) The fellow in question was young and not sure he could even perform in front of another man, and 2) My wife isn't exactly an exhibitionist, and wasn't sure she could perform in front of me with another man. I saw her motivations as sincere. I could have easily said "no, this is something we should do together or not at all." I thought it over, and knew that I wanted her first experience to be a good one for her, so I stretched and said "OK" to give her what she needed/wanted. You can try to make that appear a selfish act on my part all you want, but it simply wasn't. It was meant to express quite unselfish love and complete trust in my wife. She was very happy and appreciative that I said "OK", and that was part of my intention. She demonstrated that by stretching for me where my female friend was concerned. I didn't stretch for her with that purpose in mind, but it felt good to see her stretch for me too...it made me feel quite loved to see her stretch for me, and I'd imagine my stretch had the same feeling for her. I allowed her something she wanted but that I wouldn't have preferred (but wasn't hurt by), and she attempted to allow me something I wanted but that she would not have preferred (but wasn't hurt by). Isn't that how relationships are supposed to work? They are supposed to be fair within reason, aren't they? Isn't it OK to stretch a little for the other person but also gently expect them to stretch for you? Shouldn't you strive to not create hurt for your partner, and tell them clearly what you need to not create hurt for you?

 

And yes, the ultimate goal was for both of us to have erotic fun together getting our libido's satisfied and satisfying someone elses. We've done things for several years to spice up our sex life...this seemed like a logical progression, so we both decided to try it. I encouraged her, but was careful to not pressure her. We talked about it all quite a bit, I tried to get out of her what she actually wanted, and told her what I actually wanted. It helped create some emotional intimacy for us that we really didn't have before. And yes, we did read a lot of threads here. Probably not enough, but a lot.

 

I'll also say in her defense that we've talked and I realize that her response was in anger. I pushed her buttons unintentionally and she responded in an angry way. That doesn't make it OK, but at least I know that her response apparently wasn't truly meant.

[CallMeLoki 32]

I explain in the post just above about why she wanted the alone time. I felt like it was a reasonable request, so I said OK. And yes, sometimes I do bend over backwards. Sometimes she bends over backwards for me.

 

On the "relationship" issue...I guess what I should say is that we were both looking for "friends with benefits". We are both relationship-oriented people, and that just feels more comfortable to both of us. Is it slightly branching into polyamorism? Umm, I'm not sure...maybe slightly? I told her that there will be physical and emotional pleasure in her weekend, and I wanted her to enjoy them both (but just keep the perspective that it's temporary, where we are permanent...or at least intended to be permanent.)

 

I am however questioning the wisdom of attempting this "open marriage" deal though. Sometimes we learn as much or more from our mistakes as we do from our successes, huh?

[iapr 24]

Part of me wonders why you are even posting these questions on here. There are over a dozen pages of dialog on your continuing saga of when your wife traveled to bang the 22 year old and you didn't heed the advice you were given then, why is this any different?

 

People have tried to explain their thoughts to you based on their knowledge and experiences and you two have gone your own way and done your own thing. That's fine, we all have free will and we all have to do what we think is best and in the end we all either live with benefits or live with the repercussions of our choices.

 

Many very knowledgeable people warned of what could come down the road from your wife's little adventure a few weeks ago and I see some storm clouds building on the horizon.

[mixtupcpl 169]

Is it fair? No. Does that matter? No. If you're not comfortable, it should end.

 

Should you be "keeping score"? Maybe not. It won't lead anywhere good as we've all said. But if you feel you need to, what are you supposed to do? Shut that down and bottle it up? No. Because that would be BS also. So if you find that you are coming back to that scorekeeper approach, then that is a huge sign to pause and re-evaluate before you screw something up. And in my opinion, if Sif isn't ok with that, then that agreement was pretty worthless, no?

 

I also don't think that because you may be having a doubt or two right now it means you were thinking with your dick when you went into this. Telling a partner (man or woman) "you go out and go NUTS and I'll just sit here and not even THINK about it" may be noble on some level, or it may not. I think it's more about the psychology of the individual and I think that kind of relationship is something else entirely. I think it is totally normal and ok to want to at least TRY to have some kind of even playing field. I don't think it is any kind of show of selfishness at all. ESPECIALLY since your first instinct was for the two of you to play together.

 

So is Sif wanting to see that same guy, or is this some other guy? I've been beating this drum since I first posted in response to your original thread, but I really think you should just call the whole open marriage thing an interesting experiment and make your next "play time" a trip to a club for a meet and greet. And that only AFTER you have a cool down and then a chance to get some perspective on this whole thing.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Same guy, only this time Sif wanted to drop some of our boundaries. I thought that part over as well and said "OK, as long as it applies to both of us". She feels like some parts of her experience are "unfinished" and I understood where she's coming from, so it seemed like a reasonable request to me.

 

I haven't asked her to end anything...I've just asked her to wait for me, and focus on delivering a few "assists" for me.

[rpu3 630]

I haven't asked her to end anything...I've just asked her to wait for me, and focus on delivering a few "assists" for me.

 

That's all good and well, but as it was pointed out earlier, Sif may be waiting a very long time, then.

 

I hope you two take a break from this "open marriage" deal and get your shit together. If you want fairness and for her to wait and it's bothering you, then you two need to go back to the drawing board. That's what's fair - any issue should mean an automatic time out and a relationship check.

 

I've already said fairness is a worthwhile goal, and others (some of who you've not commented on - Goodtimes and TNT in particular) have made very good points about fairness and open marriages and heart-thinking versus dick-thinking. I really wish I had seen you address their commentary, because it's completely relevant. I have already commented that fairness is a hard one to pull off and I'll add that if it's a tally mentality, it's really not much of an open marriage.

 

If fairness is the theme that keeps arising with you - then both of you need to back off before you two scorch the land for miles around, leaving third degree burns on all three of you in its wake.

[fun4Ds 1,098]

Loki, I think rpu3 makes a great point. I can't say one way or another. Mrs.fun and I don't have an open marriage like you guys are TRYING to have. I think maybe its because we don't want to go through these issues you have.

 

I find it strange that we have single playmates together. I guess we can't cross over to what you guys have going. We have no regrets or potential drama because we looked for that possibility before we hooked up with them.

 

It seems you have everything going so far with swinging. I have perved your profile many times.

 

There have to be lots of folks contacting you guys with a "Lets get together". What do you tell people ? It seems like you are searching for conventional Swinging. Yet, why don't you just add to your profile that you are looking for separate play ? Explaining a little about what your really, looking for.

 

Some say that finding single females are difficult. Well I don't think so, as long as we have a sound relationship. Mrs fun would let me play with women, they do exist. Although at the time, It's not something I would consider, I digress. I couldn't imagine meeting women and telling them like you would have to. " I want fairness now, SIF got to play and I gave everything in fairness, now its my turn "

 

I'm not bragging here, BUT I COULD GET LAID. I could even hook up with a couple of women. Its not about being prince charming. Its about getting out there as a couple ,on the same page. We go to clubs, we answer to the mails on sls. I couldn't imagine having to consider a women in a bad relationship.( Mrs.fun has her own thoughts on this fact) But, that's one of the things that gets a gal off my list in a hurry. I have a clear conscience and you wish you didn't have one all, at times! But yet, I can find sex. Your fighting it, it seems... I have no problem with a woman approaching me and hitting on me. I actually promote it sometimes. The thing is, I let women know I don't cheat in any way. They need to know my wife as well. We are swingers. I don't have to ask for a weekend getaway. I do ask if they would like to get together sometime with the two of us, for a weekend getaway. I think I could after we all became acquainted, but that's not my thing. Most say "your wife is a lucky woman" and then they have been rather inquisitive about the lifestyle. We have sex and the relationship that goes with it. I'll admit, I have a relationship with them (other women). Yes, I'm a friend also. I would drive for miles to help them in any way alone. If we are together alone (them and I) we keep it on the up and up... That's life. I just choose to play together with my wife there. I can be a friend, I talk with them, ill go out of my way even. You on the other hand, have this everything for everything deal. Why ? Can you really expect everything to be for you just like SIF? It won't be.

 

That's what I find strange about all of this. You started, with looking for MFM then FMF. Nothing stayed on coarse. Now you almost fight the system... Swinging.

 

Why the profile on SLS as a couple in a conventional situation. Why ?

 

How do you respond to people from your profile on SLS?

 

There are many things that I don't understand here.

[mixtupcpl 169]

Same guy, only this time Sif wanted to drop some of our boundaries. I thought that part over as well and said "OK, as long as it applies to both of us". She feels like some parts of her experience are "unfinished" and I understood where she's coming from, so it seemed like a reasonable request to me.

 

What does this mean? Can you explain more here? What is "unfinished"? From what you described of her encounter, it sounds like the only thing unfinished was what you originally wanted (which was the MFM).

 

I haven't asked her to end anything...I've just asked her to wait for me, and focus on delivering a few "assists" for me.

 

Loki

 

I think what RPU, Goodtimes and TNT are saying is that asking her to wait is a sign that you should think on. Personally, I don't think its something you "need to get past", but others may. Either way, I'd take it as a sign that maybe you *should* ask her to end it. At least for now until you sort things out.

 

Not everyone is cut out for ANY form of extramarital activity. And then even among those who may be, not everyone is cut out for an arrangement where one partner (male or female) is the one out 90% of the time while the other sits home browsing the web. I'll always maintain that if that seems like something you're just not comfortable with, it means you need to take a different approach to this whole thing OR just go back to enjoying each other. I don't think it means there is something "wrong" in your thinking and you need to adjust, but I do think it means you need to slow down.

 

Everyone has feelings of doubt and some trouble in the beginning of something like this. The approach you guys are taking amplifies it in a BIG way as many have said. A couple trying any of this needs to continually pause and "sync up" because very often they may not be in the same place but NEED to respect each others boundaries (or they will discover they had much bigger issues to begin with)

 

And if you're wondering about me personally, in the beginning sure... I found myself score keeping a bit... But not so much in a comparison way, more in a kind of general discomfort over the whole thing way. It never became a big deal for me, but in the end I just decided that a much more "fun" and "healthier" way to do any of this is together. I think Mrs. Mix had been "out" probably 5 or 6 times (with a few different guys - and she is VERY picky) before I had done *anything* at all, if you want to know details...

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

 

If I hadn't stretched and said OK to her having alone time, I would have still gotten my penis satisfied as you put it, so that wasn't a factor in my decision....

 

And yes, the ultimate goal was for both of us to have erotic fun together getting our libido's satisfied and satisfying someone elses.

I guess I didn't make myself clear enough, I should have said "another woman" because that is what I meant and I presumed you understood.

 

I'd bet all the people who have replied to your threads have sex with their spouse and the men are getting their penis satisfied by their wife. In addition, it's our desire to have sex with someone else that we seek. You admit to the same thing in the above statement. There isn't anything wrong with this, swinging couples know this. It's how you go about it that is crucial to success in swinging and that is what we are questioning, your approach.

 

fun4Ds asked what you have done to find people on SLS, and what response you've received there. New SLS members usually receive a number of contacts when they first sign on, and your profile is appealing enough that I'd think you'd have received quit a few. Are you searching for play partners there? Are you even open to that? I believe I asked about this in another thread. And since you and Sif are seeking solo play, why not mention that in your profile?

 

I'd like to know what fun4Ds wants to know.

[mixtupcpl 169]

But can't you admit that your ultimate goal - and the reason you "stretched" for your wife - was because in the end you'd get your penis satisfied through a sexual encounter with a woman?

LM

 

I don't want to speak for Loki, but since this came back up, is this really true though? Loki's first thought was for MFM... After that was FMF. So it seems "sexual encounter with a woman" was secondary at best.

 

I know for me, Mrs. Mix asked for the open relationship. It wasn't something I had any interest in.

 

It actually is possible for a guy to be supportive (even if he happened to be the initiator) and actually not be primarily worried about him being the one getting laid. I believe this is also the case with Loki having spoken with him enough on here about it. Men are capable of "stretching" somewhat selflessly the way women are well acknowledged to in this kind of situation. It probably happens more often than is acknowledged.

 

I wouldn't necessarily question his original motive because he may be feeling misgivings now.

 

I'm also really interested in the answers to those questions about the SLS profile though...

[interested-05 135]

Having been through a divorce with an ex wife who insisted on playing regardless of how I felt, I hope I can of some help. Thinking about what happens during this transition phase, it is of course good that you have been able to talk to her enough for her to assist you, when it comes to meeting other women. However the significant advantage a woman has in finding partners for casual no string sex, leaves you feeling left out and left behind. You should be able to explain to her how you are feeling and ask her help by hooking up as a foursome, if you think this would work for you, during this transition phase.

 

I guess I would suggest that you discuss attending clubs together, or meeting other couples as a team, and that you swing as a couple, until you both feel comfortable with the freedom of meeting others whenever you have an opportunity. W/o going through the full transition and developing the new mindset which swinging requires, your chances of surviving as a couple is at a high risk for disaster.

 

Chances are she really wants to stay together as a couple, but has a real desire to experience life while she is still young enough to enjoy it. You can work your way through this but it takes time and a willingness from both of you to make it work.

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

But can't you admit that your ultimate goal - and the reason you "stretched" for your wife - was because in the end you'd get your penis satisfied through a sexual encounter with a woman?

I don't want to speak for Loki, but since this came back up, is this really true though? Loki's first thought was for MFM... After that was FMF. So it seems "sexual encounter with a woman" was secondary at best.

If Loki had started this thread about wanting to be a part of a MFM with Sif and her new playmate, I'd agree with you. But this isn't what this thread is about. Loki's already saying his wife is unfair because she has a date to play alone a second time with the 22-year-old guy...Sif doesn't want Loki to join them.

 

Loki wants to play alone now to keep things even and he's asking "Isn't that fair?"

 

And Loki has already made a proposal for play with a good female friend who has a cheating husband. And Loki wants his wife to deliver a few "assists" for him, which I can only presume means he's expecting his wife to help him hook up with a woman.

 

It actually is possible for a guy to be supportive (even if he happened to be the initiator) and actually not be primarily worried about him being the one getting laid.

Husbands who are content to see their wife leave home to get laid while they sit at home usually don't feel the unfairness bug bite them until later on (if at all), after this type of arrangement has gone on awhile. They haven't been getting any action and they want some.

 

For Loki to feel things are unfair at this early stage convinces me he had the desire from the start to experience playing with another woman.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Hey guys...thanks for all the posts and thoughts.

 

Just to be clear, before Sif went off to do anything with her playmate, we agreed that anything we did before hand needed to be fair to both of us. She knows that fairness is very important to me...it's not as important to her, but she respects that it IS important to me. (And that's in everything, not just this.) She understood that she'd have to put some work into helping me hook up. We both understood that we'd probably have to stretch for each other. We both originally agreed to have one encounter each, then sit back for a while and see how we both feel about it. We knew we were doing something that might have some unanticipated challenges. That's what we agreed to going into it.

 

One of the reasons for her first encounter alone with her playmate was for them to get comfortable enough with each other that he might be open to an MFM with us. He is willing to try it, and would not have been if they hadn't spent some alone time. That seemed quite reasonable to me...I could certainly imagine a women perhaps needing to get comfortable with me alone before she'd want to try an FMF threesome, right? It seemed like reasonable privileges to give each other.

 

Moving forward, she invited him to visit to join us a concert with a group she knows he likes. At the time, she was undecided about whether she wanted any more encounters or not during his visit. We talked about it, and we decided she could have more alone time with him (to "finish" some unfinished business, and to just enjoy herself while the opportunity still exists), and try the MFM threesome that was the original intention. I had to think it over and make sure I wasn't stretching myself past what I feel like is fairness (i.e. that another encounter wouldn't leave me feeling "left out") in how we go about this, but it seemed like it made sense to just say "yes" to the opportunity for both of us.

 

Let me give my definition of fairness: We give each other what the other wants, and be considerate of each other, putting our marriage and each other first, but not stretching ourselves to the point of creating resentment or hurt. Essentially, that's it in this case. It's a balance that may tip one way or the other at times. I don't expect it to be tit-for-tat. She had a weekend with her playmate. For me, a similar 2 nights with another woman works, but so does 1 night each with 2 other woman, 1 night with another woman then a threesome with the other woman and my wife, a two-night threesome with another lady...any of those seem fair to me even though they're not necessarily tit-for-tat. I don't feel like we need to count orgasms or anything. It just needs to be a similarly enjoyable experience for me, and I expect her to give me what I need to make it happen (mainly permission and assists), just like I gave her what she needed to make it happen for her (permission and reassurance that I'm happy for her to have this experience). Anything that's roughly the equivalent of a weekend feels fair to me. So, does that help in terms of understanding what I mean?

 

I felt good about making this choice for her to have a second alone encounter and us to try an MFM threesome UNTIL we had an argument around all of it (mine turn mainly) that created some hurt for me. With some negative feelings in place about it, I cannot feel good about her second encounter...it would hurt me and hurt us, especially if she makes me feel like she's going against my wishes...that doesn't demonstrate that our relationship is the priority, nor does it demonstrate that she's sticking to what we originally agreed to. So, what I said was "I want you to backup and wait for me". It's me asking for fairness and consideration because the argument changed the dynamic some for me. And we'll work through the argument, that's not the issue here...things get said in anger that aren't truly meant. However, the argument did make me see that perhaps I need to stop and point us back toward what we originally agreed to, and make sure the reasons for that are still true.

 

So, I think I can answer my own original question: Is it fair for me to ask her to wait for me before having her next encounter? Given our original agreement, "yes" it's fair for me to ask that.

[CallMeLoki 32]

LM...I think your perception is a bit flawed, honestly. Of course I want to play with another woman...my wife and I wouldn't be doing anything of this if we both didn't have some kind of interest in playing with other people.

 

Sif had an encounter alone with my blessing...I want to have a roughly similar experience, but I really don't care if it's alone time with another woman or a threesome with my wife and another woman (the original intention), or some combination there of. A weekend away with another woman only sounds appealing to me if it's really the "right woman" (thus the friend that I approached where we both ended up deciding "no, we shouldn't"). I'm flexible on what my turn includes and how it plays out, but yes I do want it to include another woman...that seems like a reasonable desire.

 

I'll say this again...original intention was that we are giving each other a "gift" of the freedom to enjoy some experiences we have never enjoyed before. For Sif, it was unattached sex with a college boy (it was a bit of a fantasy for her, something she had never done before...I think it grew out of her cyber-chats with this college boy). The main fantasy I'd really like to live out is a threesome with two ladies...but I'm flexible enough that a weekend away with the right woman would likely be almost as satisfying too.

[CallMeLoki 32]

LM...

...

I'll say this again...original intention was that we are giving each other a "gift" of the freedom to enjoy some experiences we have never enjoyed before...The main fantasy I'd really like to live out is a threesome with two ladies...

 

Actually, ya know maybe I should back up here and just concentrate on this part instead of confusing the issue with other possibilities (like a weekend away, or some other deal)? The other female doesn't have to be bi-curious and she doesn't have to be in the lifestyle as long as she understands our rules...I don't care if my wife and her play with each other at all (although it would be quite hot if they were so inclined).

 

So, thanks LM...I think maybe your comment is helping draw my focus back to our original intentions...giving each other an "erotic gift".

[CallMeLoki 32]

So, I think I can answer my own original question: Is it fair for me to ask her to wait for me before having her next encounter? Given our original agreement, "yes" it's fair for me to ask that.

 

Now, that said...here's the part I struggle with...here's the part where I usually let my heart guide my decisions where my wife is concerned, regardless of what my mind might be telling me.

 

I want her to be happy and enjoy this. I think this whole experience so far has been a real confidence builder and self-esteem builder for her. I'm proud of her for being brave enough to go off for a weekend of fucking some college boy...it was a stretch for her to allow herself to do that, even with my blessing. I care how my wife feels as much as I care how I feel...it's when those two things clash that I struggle with the "right" decision. That's the kind of person I am, and that's the kind of value I put on our relationship.

 

So, I put our relationship first, even before my own concept of fairness. BUT...I also have to consider that perceived lack of fairness eats at me (and that's whether I'm on the giving or receiving end), and that's not good for our relationship if the fairness concern is between her and I. I will give to my wife until it hurts...but I know I have to limit that short of creating resentment toward her because of my own decisions. Does that make any sense? It's a tough balance for me.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that, using my heart as the guide but still considering what my mind tells me, I don't want to set myself up to feel like "this is becoming unfair to me", so I'm trying to think ahead and avoid setting myself up for that. Make sense?

 

This is a tough decision. When I have a tough decision with my heart telling me one thing and my mind telling me the opposite, I more and more seem to follow my heart. I don't yet know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Nothing with human beings is ever black and white...it's all gray.

[CallMeLoki 32]

And a final thought...this is supposed to be fun. I need to keep it fun for her, and she needs to keep it fun for me. If something sucks the fun out of it, then there's no point in doing it. That's a big consideration too. This isn't something I truly need nor is it something she truly needs...we are quite happy with each other (even though we don't always see eye to eye on everything, there's plenty of love and deep emotional connection there). We've both always been somewhat conservative in our sex lives...I've never been a "pickup artist" (even though I could have) and she's never been "one night stand material" (although she easily could have). If we're ever going to enjoy some erotic fun like this, early 40's sure seems like the best time to just have at it.

 

And it's not like I'm panicking that I won't get my turn or anything (especially with Sif actively helping me). I guess I just want to make the decision in this particular case that will be best for our relationship.

[TNT 1,155]

And a final thought...this is supposed to be fun.

 

Loki

 

That's probably the only thing you've said that I will agree with 100%.

 

If your wife going out and playing alone is not JUST AS MUCH FUN for YOU as it is for her...OR, You going out and playing alone is not JUST AS MUCH FUN for HER as it is for you...then you damn sure don't need to be doing it.

 

You've overlooked all the fun you're suppose to be having...letting your sense of "fairness" over ride whatever fun was in it for you to have your wife play alone. I just don't see where either of you are truly enjoying any part of your adventure here. You're putting way to much thought into it.

 

If things are 100%, unequivocal, FUN for BOTH of you, no matter who the hell is playing more than the other...there is no need for this "Well you went last time, it's my time now" train of thought...IT DOESN'T FRIGGING MATTER who is playing more because the FUN FACTOR is equal either way.

 

I really think you need to take a step back and re-evaluate WHY you wanted to try an open marriage in the first place.

[CallMeLoki 32]

I really think you need to take a step back and re-evaluate WHY you wanted to try an open marriage in the first place.

 

Yup, definitely agreed. Maybe "open marriage" isn't exactly the right term...swinging alone, open marriage, who knows...we've still got a lot to learn, there's no doubt about it. I don't care what you call it, I definitely agree that we both need to try to insure that it's fun and drama-free for both of us.

 

And maybe I take my own decisions too seriously. Sometimes I have to remind myself to just get my mind out of the way and let myself just "feel".

[arvcpl 16]

 

 

One of the reasons for her first encounter alone with her playmate was for them to get comfortable enough with each other that he might be open to an MFM with us. He is willing to try it, and would not have been if they hadn't spent some alone time. That seemed quite reasonable to me...I could certainly imagine a women perhaps needing to get comfortable with me alone before she'd want to try an FMF threesome, right?

 

 

 

Why on God's Green Earth are you caving in to the comforts and preferences of some single guy??? Why in a million years did you let him call the shots?

 

Fuck him! If he doesn't want to do a MFM with you forget his sorry ass and pick one of the ten million single guys that will do a MFM.

 

You just aren't getting it. I don't know what is more amazing, the fact that you keep posting and asking questions or the fact that all of us keep trying to get through to you.

 

You are turning this into work and hardship. this is something that should be fun and exciting that a couple does together. You two are caving in to the comfort levels of some 22-year-old nerd-boy wannabe and in the mean time are turning against each other and it is turning into a friction point

 

Read closely... BAD SIGN DUDE!!!! WARNING! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!

 

You are all headed for a melt down here. Forget fairness, the world isn't fair. Forget keeping score, every man will lose every time. What you need to work on is your own relationship and your own sex life and if you want to swing it should be a part of your own sex life, not about the whims and comforts of other people that are wanting to get in your/her pants.

 

OF COURSE every single guy is going to want her for himself, DUH!!!!! That's what guys do, they all want all the pussy for themselves!!! As a swinging couple it's your role and your responsibility to lay down your terms under what conditions they get to play with you. If they don't like your terms, to damn bad, they can go get a girlfriend/boyfriend like everyone else.

 

Same thing applies to single fems only there is a different twist to it. Single fems can get any dick they want. If some gal needs to get comfortable with you alone it's because she is wanting a man of her own. again, DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!! Stay the fuck away from that!!!

 

Your line of thinking is way off. Single fems are in the lifestyle to explore with women and couples. They can get a single dick anywhere. Pursuing singles on their terms can only lead to trouble within your relationship. If singles want to play with couples they can do it under the couples conditions or they can go to vanilla bar and pick up another single.

[arvcpl 16]

Another thing, at least a handful of people have asked you what you are doing to find a compatible couple/single male/ single fem on SLS and you have not addressed that at all. People have suggested looking for couples and singles already in the lifestyle through LS websites and clubs but you keep coming up with other crazy people.

 

I've looked at your profile and it isn't bad at all. There is no reason your profile should not attract some reasonable response. With the time and energy you two have put into all this drama and heartache on this site (don't get me wrong, I've loved the free entertainment ) you could have met and gone out with a lot of nice normal couples and had some times.

 

For some reason you are just missing the boat and not getting what people have been trying to tell you all along.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Why on God's Green Earth are you caving in to the comforts and preferences of some single guy??? Why in a million years did you let him call the shots?

 

Once again, he did not call the shots here. My wife asked about the alone time. I didn't care what HE needed...I cared what MY WIFE needed to make it happen for her. That's why I decided "OK".

 

Everything is perfectly fine between me and my wife (and him too) where her first encounter is concerned. We are focused on moving forward.

 

And yes, we are taking advantage of SLS, AFF, and a few others, specifically in looking for a playmate for me. I have a lot of competition from single men and from other couples looking for a female threesome partner, so my wife and I both understand this will take some time.

[CallMeLoki 32]

With the time and energy you two have put into all this drama and heartache on this site (don't get me wrong, I've loved the free entertainment ) you could have met and gone out with a lot of nice normal couples and had some times.

 

I'm glad you enjoy the "entertainment".

 

The perceived "drama and heartache" are slim in comparison to the emotional intimacy this has helped build for my wife and I. Were there a few tough spots? Yes. But I see plenty of tough spots with conventional swingers too...the forum is full of them.

 

I will grant you this though...I can definitely see where conventional swinging is just easier. But then, maybe some of the decisions and talks that my wife and I have had because of our non-standard approach are GOOD for US? Working through tough spots successfully together makes you a stronger couple, doesn't it? Not that I'm saying we should purposefully put ourselves into tough spots, of course. But tough spots happen in things that are not sex-related as well...it is so reassuring to me to see us work together and stretch for each other. I really think that's the part you aren't getting about this. We committed to each other to successfully work through any unexpected problems we might have. There were a few relatively minor issues from her first encounter, and we successfully worked through them. I'll say this...if we're making this work with only a few bumps, conventional swinging should be pretty damn easy for us. So, point definitely noted!

 

My wife has mentioned the idea of just going to a swinger party so that I can enjoy myself (although I really wouldn't want or expect her to "take one for the team", even though she kind of offered). But, hitting a swinger meet and greet is probably a great idea. I was already thinking about that, and we'll talk about it soon.

[iapr 24]

I will grant you this though...I can definitely see where conventional swinging is just easier.

 

.............

 

I'll say this...if we're making this work with only a few bumps, conventional swinging should be pretty damn easy for us. So, point definitely noted!

 

I don't think arcpl or anyone else was saying that swinging as a couple is "easier" because quite frankly, I doubt if it is easier and in many ways is much harder and more effort.

 

IMHO swinging as a couple poses less risk to the relationship and is a venture that is shared together as a couple. Even though I believe your sincerity when you say that you are supportive of each other and the communication etc has made you closer, the fact is that you are each attempting to pursue things as individuals and you have not given swinging as a couple an honest attempt. I find that troubling because in my observations when couples are more interested in pursuing other people on their own and in private than they are doing things together it often is the beginning of the end for the relationship. (THE EXCEPTION to this is couples who have been swinging together for a time and learned over time that they prefer separate room swap while still swinging together. But again you have not been there nor done that )

 

I think your consideration of going to a club/party is a step in the right direction although I don't know why you automatically jumped to the assumption that your wife would be taking one for the team in doing so. The whole point to entering into the lifestyle should be so you can have some fun and adventure as a couple. Why are you assuming your wife would be taking one for the team?

[sexcupid 809]

One of the reasons for her first encounter alone with her playmate was for them to get comfortable enough with each other that he might be open to an MFM with us. He is willing to try it, and would not have been if they hadn't spent some alone time. That seemed quite reasonable to me...I could certainly imagine a women perhaps needing to get comfortable with me alone before she'd want to try an FMF threesome, right? It seemed like reasonable privileges to give each other.

 

 

Ok, I will say this...on one hand it does seem like a reasonable request.

 

However, perhaps it's my more evil side (hey I try to keep it at bay...doesn't always work )...but really, it's not reasonable. Here's why...I would wager this guy (or the hypothetical girl) doesn't (or wouldn't) have any intention of playing with the two of you as a couple. Having performance anxiety is a common theme in the LS (and out).

 

I mean, look at your hot avatar...seriously. lol If as another female, I could get to just play with you and not have to deal with the pesky situation of having another female (most specifically your wife) in the room where your attention would be divided...would I say I'm more comfortable playing with you alone to get to you...sure. Does that mean I want to have a 3sum (even if it had been talked about previously)? Perhaps not. It's that whole getting the milk for free' concept.

 

Again, Loki...all I can do is wish you luck.

[lotsoffun201 175]

We had a long talk about our relationship last night while leaving a party. Having sex with others at least in our opinion, alone amounts to cheating. Not everyone feels that way, but this is what works for us.

 

You are correct in that she has a better opportunity than you do. Simple fact unfortunately.

 

IMHO...without two willing partners for each of you, this amounts to cheating. Sorry to say it.

 

Good luck

[CallMeLoki 32]

IMHO......without two willing partners for each of you, this amounts to cheating. Sorry to say it.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. This was definitely not cheating in my perspective...there was no deception at all, and my wife had my full blessing and encouragement to enjoy it. If she did something behind my back, deceived me, etc., that would be cheating. This most definitely was not.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Ok, I will say this...on one hand it does seem like a reasonable request.

 

...but really, it's not reasonable. Here's why...I would wager this guy (or the hypothetical girl) doesn't (or wouldn't) have any intention of playing with the two of you as a couple...

 

...If as another female, I could get to just play with you and not have to deal with the pesky situation of having another female (most specifically your wife) in the room where your attention would be divided...would I say I'm more comfortable playing with you alone to get to you...sure. Does that mean I want to have a 3sum (even if it had been talked about previously)? Perhaps not. It's that whole getting the milk for free' concept.

...

 

Ya know...you have definitely got a point that I need to consider. As someone else pointed out, since I'm the male in the marriage, part of my role is to be the "gate-keeper".

 

I will say one thing in the 22 yr old's defense though...he actually had performance anxiety alone with my wife (that's a part of the "unfinished business" that my wife wants to be able to feel complete about), so I do believe that he probably wouldn't have been able to even participate in an MFM. (I know, I know...there's plenty of men to choose from in the LS. )

[slevin 1,374]

Couple of questions. You keep saying that you need your wife to give some assists; what do you mean by that specifically?

 

Why are you sticking strictly to lifestyle websites like SLS and AFF for finding a girl for you to see? If you're going to see a woman on your own as well then meeting a single girl out in the real world will be far easier for you. I know you mentioned that it would be more difficult, but the fact is that it isn't. If you want a threesome then the lifestyle sites can be easier, but I'm not sure you truly understand just how long a road that will be. Some people have lucked out, but the vast majority of couples go YEARS before they find a single girl to join them for a threesome.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Couple of questions. You keep saying that you need your wife to give some assists; what do you mean by that specifically?

 

Why are you sticking strictly to lifestyle websites like SLS and AFF for finding a girl for you to see? If you're going to see a woman on your own as well then meeting a single girl out in the real world will be far easier for you I know you mentioned that it would be more difficult, but the fact is that it isn't. If you want a threesome then the lifestyle sites can be easier, but I'm not sure you truly understand just how long a road that will be. Some people have lucked out, but the vast majority of couples go YEARS before they find a single girl to join them for a threesome.

 

Thank you! Yes, I totally agree that finding a lady FWB is easier in the "vanilla" world than in the swinger ranks! I also think finding a female threesome partner is easier in the "vanilla" world than in the swinger ranks, to be honest. But, I've never done either, so part of the fun here is the search and chase. Like I've said before, I've never been a "pickup artist", so there's some things I'll probably learn about myself as I go.

 

What do I mean by delivering assists? Well, in general most men aren't shy about asking a woman to sleep with them. In the vanilla world, it doesn't matter if the woman is married or anything else, there are guys who will ask her for a lay. Women are used to resisting. If I approach a woman with sexual interest, I'm one of a hundred. If my wife and I both approach her (or I approach her, then my wife gives her permission, or vice versa), I've put myself into a slightly different category. I *think* this is particularly true for a threesome, but I don't know that for sure. It does seem that most threesomes that happen in the vanilla world (yes, believe it or not, threesomes happen in the vanilla world! ) come about by the wife having a female friend, there's some chemistry between the hubby and the female friend, and the wife essentially lines up the threesome since she is the "owner" of her relationship with both people. Anyway, this is the kind of thing I mean as an "assist". For instance, one of our female friends complains about her mediocre sex life, so my wife has told her a couple times "Well, you should just take my hubby for a good roll in the hay." In other words, she's pimpin' me out. I haven't hooked up yet, but it's not because she's not allowing it nor because she's not helping me.

 

So, see guys? This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that makes me want to tell my wife "Honey, fuck your boytoy senseless while he's here for the concert." And I've decided that's what I'm going to do. I want my wife to be happy and have her kinky experience be a wonderful thing with no drama from me. She deserves this. I know folks here will rip me to shreds, but I completely absolutely trust my wife and I'm not worried about it being a risk to our relationship. Her first encounter turned out just fine, even though there were folks who said she'd end up in a body bag. This second encounter will turn out just fine too, and if an MFM works I'll definitely run with it. I want my wife to be thrilled and have some good memories that don't include any selfish drama from me. She has said that she really doesn't want to do anything beyond this in future, meaning, she really doesn't want to find another playmate, nor have another encounter with this one. She may or may not change her mind if this encounter is really good, who knows...but like I've said before, her playmate is a good guy, he'll end up with a girlfriend sooner rather than later merely because he's a good guy (probably shortly after he lands his first post-college job), and then he won't engage in any wildness (hmmm...unless he brings his girlfriend here...now there's a thought!), so Sif's opportunities with this playmate have an expiration. I want her to take advantage of it while she can, and I've told her that. I'd want her to tell me the same thing if/when I snag a single girl for a while, and we've committed to each other to treat each other the way we want to be treated. I intend to honor that, and so does she. So, there ya go.

 

Plus, we've planned to try an MFM threesome, and this is probably the ideal chance we have to do that with someone who she really likes and trusts, someone she's already had sex with (my wife can be quite shy until she gets going), someone who is "disconnected" from our normal circle of friends, etc. Regardless of whether he's a "swinger" or not, he understands and respects our rules, and he's a nearly perfect candidate for a threesome for the same reasons he was a perfect candidate for her to spend a fantasy weekend alone with.

 

Now, that said, we may still very well try a swinger party. If nothing else, my curiosity is killing me, but we'll see.

[slevin 1,374]

I know you feel like no one here 'gets' your situation, but I think the reason most people are posting those concerns is more to do with the context of what you post than anything else. This post here is the most declarative and self assured thing you have posted. The fact that YOU are happy that she is going (not just mentally happy, that is easy to talk yourself into) is a sign that perhaps this situation is ok for you guys. Prior to this there was a lot of questioning behind your posts, with you trying to figure out what you were ok with and to be honest it didn't seem like you were actually ok with it despite trying to convince us (and yourself) that you were. If you are now (and like I said, not just mentally ok with the idea, actually emotionally ok with it too) then go for it. All of this isn't a logical thing to think through, it's an emotional thing that we all have to navigate. Sometimes that means things aren't fair, sometimes they don't make sense and that's ok!

 

Now, as for picking up women. For you fucking single women it'll actually be easier for you to do that on your own without your wife. The addition of your wife there is going to scare most women off or freak them out. There are ways to subtly communicate that you're married and this is just for fun without getting into a logical discussion about it with a girl, this is something you'll need to learn how to do. Picking up women for a threesome with the two of you is something best done with both you and your wife there; you should be leading the interaction between the three of you and escalating things between you and her as well as her and your wife. Speaking of that, is Sif bi (or curious)?

 

Threesomes do happen in the vanilla world, but not really all that often lol. All the guys I know who have had threesomes did it by picking up women with their girlfriend. Not picking up her friends, picking up women neither of them knew. It can happen with a friend, but I strongly suggest against that. The complications that can come up later are just too much to deal with; between you guys and your friend as well as between you and Sif. Yes, you have a solid relationship and full trust between each other, but don't underestimate the effect that you guys fucking a single girl who you're close friends with can have. Whether you can weather that storm or not isn't the point: not having to deal with the situation at all is what I'm talking about. You can have just as much fun with women where that extra issue is not a concern.

 

Now, I look forward to you refuting much of my point and telling me why I am wrong and don't understand

 

(since this is the internet and sarcasm doesn't come across well, that was a light hearted jab)

[CallMeLoki 32]

Light-hearted jab taken, Slevin!

 

Yes, you are correct. When I am navigating uncharted territory, I let my mind spin on possibilities. A lot of what you see from me are brain dumps as I work my way through different ways of looking at something. After a while, I get tired of reasoning my way through something, then I back up and ask myself "how do you FEEL about it?". Sometimes it's a mix of emotions as I try to anticipate how I'll feel about something after the fact. Yes, it's a lot of work, BUT I can usually pretty well guess how I'm going to feel about something after it happens, and I can often anticipate issues that I'd expect and nip those in the bud beforehand.

 

So, even though it might appear that we are throwing caution to the wind, the reality is far from it. I'm spontaneous with things that don't have a huge impact, but for things that can have a huge impact (especially on my relationships with people, in particular my wife) I tend to think them through carefully and try to consider every perspective I can think of.

 

I do appreciate all the posts that I get here, and all the different perspectives. You folks often pose at least one question I hadn't thought of...that in itself is totally worth it.

 

And yeah, I adore and completely trust my wife and want her to enjoy the fool out of this.

[socolais 696]

Ya know, Loki, I've been watching this thread and several of your others - I guess for the same reason it's so difficult to avert my eyes from a train wreck. I see your sincerity and desire and I respect that. I also see your confusion and I recognize that as not too much different from my own confusion back in the beginning. The enlightened folks on this board helped me through my own wilderness in much the same way I see them counseling you. I was overthinking this by many orders of magnitude - they told me so - and they were very correct. But I had to do it my way, and my way is to overthink the hell out of something before I get caught unprepared.

 

You'll make it through this, I'm sure, because I see the determination in your words. I think you're on the verge of finding your own smooth path. Good luck.