Fairness question...open marriage

[CallMeLoki 32]

And ya know, I totally understand WHY everyone cautions us about this approach. For instance, I just read Colorado_couples story about how his first wife sneaked around with a swing partner and eventually ran off with him. I've seen the threads where the guy sneaks around or runs off.

 

Here's an interesting thought...the church we attend did a sermon on adultery a while back...his main point was that an affair requires opportunity AND intention. So, you keep yourself away from opportunities and the intention won't develop. I totally disagree with that...I think if you have intention, you will create the necessary opportunities. For instance, I have intention to find a lady playmate...I can go out and meet women...I can approach women I already know...I can create opportunities, all I need is the intention.

 

Here's the important point though: Neither Sif nor I have the intention of running off with someone else. She'd be an idiot to give me up and I'd be an idiot to give her up. It comes down to trust. It's that simple.

 

Speaking of church...a few years back, the lead pastor had an affair with the music pastor's wife. After the staff shuffled, the new lead pastor put rules in place that no man and woman on staff can be in the office alone, nor go to lunch alone in a car, etc. This seems totally ridiculous to me, it really does. If two people on the staff have the intention to fuck each other behind their spouses' backs, they will find a way to do it. A few rules won't stop them.

 

The female best friend of mine that I've mentioned before. We've been alone in my house, her house, both our cars, at work, on vacation, you name it...we've had so many opportunities over 15 years to sneak off and fuck each other that I can't count them. I think she's hot, apparently she thinks I'm hot. Yet, we've never done each other. We've never even kissed each other more than an affectionate little peck on the lips. Why? Because neither one of us has ever had the intention...we have commitments to others and we honor those commitments. (Now I did ask her recently if she wanted to play, but that's a totally different story, my wife gave me permission, I talked to her about it, we considered her hubby and how it might impact her if even talked with him about it, and essentially decided "no". See that other 15 page thread of mine for those details!) My wife has been alone with men too...at work, at lunch, on business trips. The reality is that we can't isolate each other (who'd want to anyway?)...all we can do is be honest with each other, trust each other to make the right decisions, and trust each other to be honest if one of us broke one of our commitments.

[CallMeLoki 32]

I was overthinking this by many orders of magnitude - they told me so - and they were very correct. But I had to do it my way, and my way is to overthink the hell out of something before I get caught unprepared.

 

Thank you for the vote of confidence. Yes, I overthink the hell out of things, especially things with emotional content. Sometimes I just have to switch my mind off and see what answer rises to the top. History has shown me that's generally the right answer.

[10thBadger 25]

On 10/3/2008 at 12:43 PM, wlhotwife said:

Wow, Loki...what a can of worms.

 

I think the only way you can have "fairness and equality" in an open marriage is if you look at it over the long term. There are going to be situations like this where one of you is getting more action than the other for some period of time. Trying to keep the score even over the short term is going to prove to be a hassle and a source of conflict between you two.

 

Could you look at the issue in a different way perhaps, appreciating that your wife is growing and exploring her sexuality, and knowing that things may never be completely even as far as number of partners, experiences, etc.? If that is making a positive impact on your relationship, then who cares about the numbers and timing?

Badgers wife

 

What if only one person is getting all the fun and the other one does not. How can this be good for the relationship. The responsible thing would be for the wife to realize that her having all the fun is going to have conflict and if she sees that it is hurting her husband, she should automatically stop without him having to say anything. That’s if you care about the other persons feelings. I think she is being selfish and then to say something to him that hurts him just so she can get her way. She is lucky that he is not vindictive but I do agree what you were saying in your post.

[10thBadger 25]

On 10/4/2008 at 12:27 PM, CallMeLoki said:

Hey guys...thanks for all the posts and thoughts.

 

Just to be clear, before Sif went off to do anything with her playmate, we agreed that anything we did before hand needed to be fair to both of us. She knows that fairness is very important to me...it's not as important to her, but she respects that it IS important to me. (And that's in everything, not just this.) She understood that she'd have to put some work into helping me hook up. We both understood that we'd probably have to stretch for each other. We both originally agreed to have one encounter each, then sit back for a while and see how we both feel about it. We knew we were doing something that might have some unanticipated challenges. That's what we agreed to going into it.

 

One of the reasons for her first encounter alone with her playmate was for them to get comfortable enough with each other that he might be open to an MFM with us. He is willing to try it, and would not have been if they hadn't spent some alone time. That seemed quite reasonable to me...I could certainly imagine a women perhaps needing to get comfortable with me alone before she'd want to try an FMF threesome, right? It seemed like reasonable privileges to give each other.

 

Moving forward, she invited him to visit to join us a concert with a group she knows he likes. At the time, she was undecided about whether she wanted any more encounters or not during his visit. We talked about it, and we decided she could have more alone time with him (to "finish" some unfinished business, and to just enjoy herself while the opportunity still exists), and try the MFM threesome that was the original intention. I had to think it over and make sure I wasn't stretching myself past what I feel like is fairness (i.e. that another encounter wouldn't leave me feeling "left out") in how we go about this, but it seemed like it made sense to just say "yes" to the opportunity for both of us.

 

Let me give my definition of fairness: We give each other what the other wants, and be considerate of each other, putting our marriage and each other first, but not stretching ourselves to the point of creating resentment or hurt. Essentially, that's it in this case. It's a balance that may tip one way or the other at times. I don't expect it to be tit-for-tat. She had a weekend with her playmate. For me, a similar 2 nights with another woman works, but so does 1 night each with 2 other woman, 1 night with another woman then a threesome with the other woman and my wife, a two-night threesome with another lady...any of those seem fair to me even though they're not necessarily tit-for-tat. I don't feel like we need to count orgasms or anything. It just needs to be a similarly enjoyable experience for me, and I expect her to give me what I need to make it happen (mainly permission and assists), just like I gave her what she needed to make it happen for her (permission and reassurance that I'm happy for her to have this experience). Anything that's roughly the equivalent of a weekend feels fair to me. So, does that help in terms of understanding what I mean?

 

I felt good about making this choice for her to have a second alone encounter and us to try an MFM threesome UNTIL we had an argument around all of it (mine turn mainly) that created some hurt for me. With some negative feelings in place about it, I cannot feel good about her second encounter...it would hurt me and hurt us, especially if she makes me feel like she's going against my wishes...that doesn't demonstrate that our relationship is the priority, nor does it demonstrate that she's sticking to what we originally agreed to. So, what I said was "I want you to backup and wait for me". It's me asking for fairness and consideration because the argument changed the dynamic some for me. And we'll work through the argument, that's not the issue here...things get said in anger that aren't truly meant. However, the argument did make me see that perhaps I need to stop and point us back toward what we originally agreed to, and make sure the reasons for that are still true.

 

So, I think I can answer my own original question: Is it fair for me to ask her to wait for me before having her next encounter? Given our original agreement, "yes" it's fair for me to ask that.

I do not think the toy they used to sell a long time ago called stretch Armstrong stretches less than you do. You are stretching like a rubber band. Now you are buying concert tickets for bands that he likes just to make him feel comfortable. I’m not sure dude, I think you’re being played. And like my wife said in the other post. If she cared anything about you, she would see that things are not fair and would want to stop on her own or slow things down so that you do not have hurt feelings. You shouldn’t have to tell her or have conversations with her when she sees you’re having difficulties.  I know my wife does that for me.