Trying to coach her into the lifestyle...

[Alex855 16]

My long time GF and both share similar lifestyle fantasies (MFM). BUt in reality this scares her. We have been together for a few years and we are both deeply in love with each other.

 

Ok for a couple of years the sexy talk was restricted to the bedroom, whenever I would bring it up out of the bedroom she would atomatically put a stop it. I don't push so I would leave it alone. Anyway as time progressed and as situations arrived where another man was hitting on her or dancing with her she would make flirty remarks as I "really liked watching her" of course my reply was "you know it does, you're the hottest woman I've ever met". But that was it, she never allowed the conversation to go further... Except when we were in the bedroom, if I even brought up a real life situation as in "I know you wanted to fuck him" she'd cum in an instant. But only open to the idea in the bedroom.

 

Fast forward still trying to get the idea in her head without being pushy. I bought a video with a girl who looks a LOT like her, there she right on the cover with 4 other guys, very explicit photos in the back. I purposely left whe she would see it along with swingwebsites. Anyway as planned she saw it and asked me about it. So I told her the (as she expected) that I bought the video because it looked like her, and about the websites that I enjoyed reading them for me and tht I would never surprise her with something like that.

 

finally the conversation turned... Finally she admitted to wanting to "fuck other guys, that sometimes she sees a really good looking guy and would mind having him in her" but she would feel really awckward if I was in the room, I just listened... Basically I told her that the thought of her fucking someone else really turn me on, as long as she comes home to me. At that point she said she would be scared and said "what if I only kiss them?" I told her that's fine as long as I'm your #1. THen we proceded to have sex.

 

Now I consider this amojor break through. Now I not quite sure how to move forward. Baby steps I know that.

 

Any info greatly appreciated.

 

A-

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

You've got a long way to go yet. Patience. You've exhibited a lot of it, you're going to have to exhibit a lot more. The distance between fantasy and reality is very great, and getting from one to the other takes a lot of time, a lot of talking, a lot of love, and a lot of patience for most couples. Avoid any sense, either inwardly or outwardly from yourself, that this is a direction you're wanting to go for yourself. Your partner needs to want this, needs to cross the bridge. In this case, since you want it to happen, your job is to hold her hand, find answers to her questions as best you can (ask here!), shower her with love and affection.

 

There's a huge difference between wanting something in the bedroom and wanting it when you're out and about in the humdrum of life, doing something completely unrelated to sex. A good measure of desire is if a person wants to swing while doing things completely unrelated, and the more unrelated the better, and feels that way frequently.

 

As for fucking other men without you present; be careful. There's plenty of couples that make that sort of situation work. There's many others that avoid it entirely. There's still others that think they can handle it and find out otherwise. See https://www.swingersboard.com/forums/topic/31483-emotional-amp-logistical-problems-of-an-open-marriage/ Save yourself the reading if you want; read the first and last several pages for how well that worked out. In short, utter chaos and destruction, with a six year old child as the innocent victim.

 

Personally, I would NOT want my wife to be fucking other men without me present. If she had a consistent male sex buddy, then down the road a long ways I could see it being possible. But, as a way to explore swinging? No way. Absolutely no way. If your girlfriend isn't comfortable having sex with other men while you are present, she's very most likely not ready to swing, though there are certainly exceptions.

[BiloxiCouple 695]

Sometimes bedroom fantasies and realities don't mix.

 

Only you and her will know if it works or not. And she will tell you.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Just keep talking. Keep the lines of communication open and talk to her about what you feel/think and allow her to do the same. If you do that,when she's ready she'll let you know.

[Alex855 16]

Thank you all for the advice. Yeah I am moving at a snail's pace with this. Which is fine by me. The time lapse of my little story actually was about 5 years worth. I know we still have a long way to go but to me, her actually talking about it outside the bedroom was a huge step! meaning that it's in her mind now and actually craving other men. Whether we go through with it only time will tell. Like I said baby steps. What is the next step? not sure maybe point out a guy in crowd that I know she will be attracted to and ask her questions regarding her attraction to him and what she would do. Just to keep the communication open.

 

bbarns,

 

Thank you for the link and word of caution. Trust me it will not fall on deaf ears.

[ncmd_couple 597]

Let her choose the man. After all, it is her choice.

[intuition897 2,179]

Alex, you seem to be on the right track here. I know it's hard to not push forward at this time, especially since you are now seeing her beginning to open up and become more interested. Now would probably be the worst time to press anything. If I'm shopping at a store, I'm a LOT less likely to buy something if the salesman is pasting on his biggest chiclet grin and hovering over me like a vulture. Same sort of idea with this. I think that what you've described in your post is actually a 5 year conversation, and what she's saying right now is, "OK you've got me. So I'm interested. I suppose you're going to get all pushy now, right?" You are telling her that you're not, and your continued restraint is only going to reinforce what you're telling her. The goal at this point is simply to be completely approachable and supportive. This is a big step for her. You're not just asking her to take her clothes off in front of someone else; you're asking her to make herself more completely vulnerable than she's ever been before. It takes a lot of trust to show one's true self like that. What she normally shows you is the woman she thinks you want to see. What you're asking is for her to show you who she is without you, who she is with someone else. This is a part of ourselves that we guard very closely because it's something about ourselves that we cannot change. To open that part of ourselves up for possible criticism is very risky.

 

I would just stop beating around the bush and lay it out on the table for her. You would say something like, "Look, I just want to see you happy and living life to the fullest. I know that fantasy and reality are two different things, but if you ever want to explore the possibility of making your MFM fantasy a reality, all you have to do is ask. I'm not going to be angry or stop loving you or lose respect for you just because you happen to like sex! I love that you're a total sex goddess! All I ask is that you don't try to hide anything from me. I just want honesty."

 

What you want her to understand above all else is that you value her, and you care about her wellbeing. This means, of course, that you would never ask her to do something she wasn't ready for or something that made her feel badly about herself. If that's how she feels, then just stick with the fantasy.

 

I'd also like to add that if you do get started, do not try separate rooms or kiss and tell type dates. If she's too uncomfortable to have you in the room, she's not ready for it!! You don't have to go all out right out of the gate, you know. You can try milder situations where the clothes stay on. Ask her to point out some guy she's attracted to and tell you what she likes about him. Ask her to tell you what she's thinking while she watches him. Maybe try a situation where she can flirt with someone, or dance with him. Just play around with the idea, and find safe ways to bring the fantasy into the real world.

 

Good luck!

[fun4Ds 1,098]

Thank you all for the advice. Yeah I am moving at a snail's pace with this. Which is fine by me. The time lapse of my little story actually was about 5 years worth. I know we still have a long way to go but to me, her actually talking about it outside the bedroom was a huge step! meaning that it's in her mind now and actually craving other men. Whether we go through with it only time will tell. Like I said baby steps. What is the next step? not sure maybe point out a guy in crowd that I know she will be attracted to and ask her questions regarding her attraction to him and what she would do. Just to keep the communication open.

 

bbarns,

 

Thank you for the link and word of caution. Trust me it will not fall on deaf ears.

 

Alex, When I first read this title I thought, "oh man are you in for a surprise." I don't think we can coach our partners in this lifestyle. Or, anyone for that matter. After reading intuition897s post all I can add is.

 

Listen to what she has said Let it simmer and soak in fully. It's not so much about coaching. There is so much we learn about our partners, and then we actually show support, not leadership, training or how the game must be played.

 

Its about sharing, trusting, and understanding all these new open thoughts we find along the way about each other. Its really about being supportive more than anything else.

 

I hope its time to bring the Mrs. to the Swingers Board.

[Alex855 16]

very good advice! thank you

[Alex855 16]

update... Prior to this our conversations were very light hearted and still in fantasyland tone.

 

Well she is starting to get bolder. And now we have talked very candid about this. The reason this came about was because:

 

A few weeks ago she almost fucked a friend of hers. I was out of town and she went out to dinner with him (i knew as she told me this prior to going). From what she told me: It was all cool (as usual) but for some reason after a few drinks she wanted to fuck him (this was a first). She said "maybe it's because of the talks we had I dunno". Apparently he cought on to her signals as when they got in the car to leave he kissed her. When he was doppring her off back home things got hot and heavy, soon they found themselves indoors. Inside the house things naturally progressed, he sucked on her tits, grabbed her ass, she grabbed his crotch. But when he was actually going to pull it out she said that she "just freaked! and said I'm not a cheater and I'm not going to cheat". She put a stop to it, apologized and told him to leave.

 

She called me the minute he left and woke me up. She was embarrrassed and ashamed, and was really sorry for what she had done. I told her she had nothing to be sorry about but that it did bother me a little bit that this went on without my knowledge, but if she would have texted me about how horny she was feeling and that she wanted to fuck him, she would have had my consent. She admitted that she had trouble believing me. As it goes against the nature of every guy. I told her that I didn't know why but it turns me on.

 

We talked for hours. About how much I love her and how much she loves me and about how we do not want to ruin this great relationship. I told her to me sex is sex, and as I long as I have her heart, and that she still wants to have sex with me (meaning I don't get replaced) that is all that matters to me. Basically the understanding is that they are human sex toys with no feelings attached to them. That is the only way that I am ok with this. I told her that what turns me on is her. Her lust, her desire to just wanting to fuck, and that when she has these desires to tell me and let me in. Not to keep anything to herself as this is a partnership, and this is "OUR" sex life.

 

We talked about what do I get out of this and I told her. It gets me off, and of course I told her that if this ever happened again "I would expect her to tell me every detail as I was fucking her" just so there isn't any misunderstandings. Thats what I get out of it pleasure. But if she never has that desire again that's fine too as all I want is her.

 

We decided that involving friends is a bad move as they can get emotionally attached and chaos can follow. There is no timetable nor commitment, basically only if the situation arises. We are still in our talking phase with no plan of going forward but at least we set up some very important ground rules just so there aren't any misunderstandings.

 

This forum is great as it has helped me understand myself and what she may be thinking. Thank you!

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

Alex855 said:

 

...I told her to me sex is sex, and as I long as I have her heart, and that she still wants to have sex with me (meaning I don't get replaced) that is all that matters to me. Basically the understanding is that they are human sex toys with no feelings attached to them. That is the only way that I am ok with this. I told her that what turns me on is her. Her lust, her desire to just wanting to fuck, and that when she has these desires to tell me and let me in. Not to keep anything to herself as this is a partnership, and this is "OUR" sex life.

That's all very romantic sounding but not realistic, especially the part about "they are human sex toys with no feeling attached to them."

 

Your girlfriend will be fucking people, not a dildo, and emotions can and often do come into the picture. There is no way you can guarantee that emotions will not play out. Heck, her date with this guy was filled with emotion! And kissing and feeling each other up was already light play in my book.

 

I think you want to be a cuckold. And if you haven't discussed that, you should. I haven't read this thread so maybe someone has already brought that up. You and your girlfriend should research what being a cuckold is about, for both of you.

[shy_couple 459]

Maybe you should try to coax her and not coach her.

[The Fuse 1,012]

That's all very romantic sounding but not realistic, especially the part about "they are human sex toys with no feeling attached to them."

 

I second this. It is unrealistic to think of other people as sex toys. It is also disrespectful. While most swingers go into the lifestyle expecting that we and our loved ones won't develop strong feelings for our playmates, and most of us don't develop those feelings, your playmates are people. Even if they aren't friends before you meet them via the lifestyle, they deserve respect and consideration at the "casual friend" level. That means you don't willfully do something to hurt or annoy them. You treat them the way you would want to be treated if you were in their place.

 

It is fine to expect your girlfriend will not fall in love with a playmate, and that her activities are just for fun. But if a playmate thought of me as a "human sex toy", that would not sit well.

 

I wish you luck whatever you and your girlfriend decide about pursuing casual sex outside your relationship.

[Chicup 41]

Part of the reason swingers can be human sex toys for each other without attachments is that we are already attached.

 

I already have love, I am not looking for love, I am happy with who I am with. It would take a VERY remarkable woman to somehow make me think 'if only her instead of Mrs. Chicup'. Personally I've never come close to meeting one and I only list it as a possibility because the world is big.

 

Singles are different, singles don't have someone, singles by default are often looking for someone even if they don't THINK they are looking for someone. Your drama potential is always higher with singles, and this is part of the reason.

 

Always though remember, they are people with their own wants and desires, you need to treat your partners with respect, and at the same time be wary of their motivations. Really basic 'human' stuff.

[WonderWhat 166]

Ummmm... I would like to insist that she should not start out by herself . If she's uncomfortable with the idea of having you present, I suggest you start channeling the fantasies towards a scenario where you are. Then you let that mature into a voyeur or threesome experience.

 

Why do I insist? I really can't put my finger on it, but there is something in the long-term repression of her fantasy that doesn't click. Let me think "out loud" for a bit...

 

First, for a long time it would make her climax immediately, and out of bed she would cut it off instantly. Additionally, she almost did it without your knowledge or explicit acceptance and felt like a "cheater".

 

That tells me that she hasn't thought everything out; she keeps repressing it, and that does not lead to introspection. That will lead to both of you being blindsided when something happens eventually.

 

Alex, even if this is your dearest and most precious fantasy and you would do anything to let it happen, do not play the part of the ever-understanding and ever-compliant partner. That Way Be Dragons.

 

She seems to me to be the kind of person who "externalizes" control. In other words, she wants someone besides herself (the "situation", her family, society, or Alex) to make the decision for her. If something blows up, she will feel vindicated that she was right all along, and somebody will be to blame. Namely... you.

 

DISCLAIMER: I might be projecting myself. Something like this happened in my first marriage's spectacular blow-up. Not that I was seeking to swing (I would have loved it), but that my ex's repressions made her do a lot of very stupid, dangerous and hurtful things, and she claims not to even remember half of it, let alone why. Your description of your GF's attitudes and actions ring a bell, and not a very melodious one.

 

What I think you did well was 1) tell her that you were bothered by it 2) tell her that if she had asked for permission beforehand, you might have agreed. I think that if she had texted it wouldn't have been enough, I think that a first big step would warrant a phone conversation, but your comments go in the right direction.

 

Take care, talk it out, take baby steps, set explicit boundaries that will not be moved until they are re-examined. More importantly, have her decide for herself; you will not give "permission," but will agree or not with what she wants.

[Alex855 16]

thank you all, this is being a real eye opener. I'll keep you all updated

[WonderWhat 166]

While I reread the whole thread a while ago, something struck me as interesting and important (emphasis is mine):

 

[...] if she would have texted me about how horny she was feeling and that she wanted to fuck him, she would have had my consent. She admitted that she had trouble believing me.

 

I really think that for this whole thing to work out, you have to be present while the fantasy progresses and turns into reality. If you're there, she will see you get hot and bothered, and she will believe in her bones that you really want this.

 

This will put her fears to rest and will start to enjoy her fantasies and realities. If she does it alone, she will start second-guessing herself during play, and will not believe you when she gets back home and tells you about it. That can eat her from within and things might get nasty.

 

 

As it goes against the nature of every guy. I told her that I didn't know why but it turns me on.

 

Guess again: it does not "go against the nature of every guy." Fantasizing about seeing your woman having sex is common to almost every guy I know, swingers or vanilla. What is uncommon is that the jealousy does not overwhelm that fantasy.

 

We humans are a mixed bag of conflicting desires and emotions. The trick is in how you decide which desires and emotions will be played out.

[realcplub2 513]

Alex, please re read all of the replies within this thread.. all are offering excellent advice.

 

Part of the issue as I see it is, given the replies you have made in her commentary, She seems to be worried that IF she does do this, and again I add my voice to the others, DO NOT DO THIS SEPERATELY, that YOU will think/feel/treat her differently.

 

I am going to point out something that most men who do begin this way already know.. In a 3some, with another man, it CAN be difficult, seeing the loved one enjoying another man.. random thoughts wander the brain case..

 

" she seems to be moaning more/differently than she does with me"

"She doesnt do that with me"

 

Now ask yourself a question, if she does this WITHOUT you there, arent you going to be eating yourself alive wondering if she told you everything, she left anything out.. Or worse, did she make another date to meet him without telling me?

 

And to echo one of the first posts.. Fantasy and reality arent the same thing.. and Yes sometimes the REALITY isnt as good as the FANTASY..

 

But the biggest reason I take the postion I do is, as a couple, which you are, SHARING the expereince together is much better for you both than Her doing and You Listening..

 

That is unless she is a Jackie Collins or Nora Roberts in training, you still run the risk of resenting the whole thing

[Rembrandt 15]

I was sitting here reading this thread and I was thinking how lucky you are. You have a lady in your life that is willing to talk to you and obviously you are in love with her. Take your time and enjoy each other's company. You have received some of the best advice anyone could get in this thread. All I can add is don't worry and remember what is important. Talk is crucial, keep communicating and not just about this subject. Talk about everything. I know that my lady and I got to be much closer when the doors of communication were thrown wide open. Just be smart, be caring and attentive. Above all just love her and make sure that your relationship is maintained. The more secure she is the more she will be able to be open with you.

 

I would wish you luck but it seems like you already have a lot of that. I wish will wish you both a long and interesting life. Take big bites my friend - moderation is for monks. Life is far too short to waste it.

[dlflorida 52]

bbarnsworth said:

You've got a long way to go yet. Patience. You've exhibited a lot of it, you're going to have to exhibit a lot more. The distance between fantasy and reality is very great, and getting from one to the other takes a lot of time, a lot of talking, a lot of love, and a lot of patience for most couples. Avoid any sense, either inwardly or outwardly from yourself, that this is a direction you're wanting to go for yourself. Your partner needs to want this, needs to cross the bridge. In this case, since you want it to happen, your job is to hold her hand, find answers to her questions as best you can (ask here!), shower her with love and affection.

 

There's a huge difference between wanting something in the bedroom and wanting it when you're out and about in the humdrum of life, doing something completely unrelated to sex. A good measure of desire is if a person wants to swing while doing things completely unrelated, and the more unrelated the better, and feels that way frequently.

 

As for fucking other men without you present; be careful. There's plenty of couples that make that sort of situation work. There's many others that avoid it entirely. There's still others that think they can handle it and find out otherwise. See https://www.swingersboard.com/forums/topic/31483-emotional-amp-logistical-problems-of-an-open-marriage/ Save yourself the reading if you want; read the first and 27th/28th pages for how well that worked out. In short, utter chaos and destruction, with a six year old child as the innocent victim.

 

Personally, I would NOT want my wife to be fucking other men without me present. If she had a consistent male sex buddy, then down the road a long ways I could see it being possible. But, as a way to explore swinging? No way. Absolutely no way. If your girlfriend isn't comfortable having sex with other men while you are present, she's very most likely not ready to swing, though there are certainly exceptions.

 

Bbarnsworth is spot on, as usual. We had our first experience three days ago and I was conflicted afterwards for a period of eight hours but I got some rest and perspective and realized my "green monster" was a figment of my imagination, I relaxed. Barnsworth has been "mentoring" us and has been a huge help. HUGE help.

 

Use the site as a resource. Have your GF read posts / threads. Many situations will be covered, especially in the new section. Our journey has just started and we are excited.

 

Patience is a virtue!

 

Good luck

[Alex855 16]

another update:

 

We were at a party last week and after a whole day of drinking (I know thats twice but trust me we are just casual drinkers) she loosened and was being flirty with a guy that I knew was her type. Nothing to really write home about but I know her so I know she was certainly flirting. The guy was certainly flirting back for sure. I didn't feel jealous as she would occasionally look over at me and give me a smile as looking for assurance.

 

On the way home we talked about how she felt and what I felt. She was truthful and felt that she was attracted and was looking at me to see if I liked what I saw. However we both decided that we don't quite understand the emotions that are going on. It's all too complex. So for the time being no action is to be taken until we know we are ready. Interestingly enough we talked about an MFM and for the first time out of the bedroom she was open to the idea.

[fun4Ds 1,098]

On the way home we talked about how she felt and what I felt. She was truthful and felt that she was attracted and was looking at me to see if I liked what I saw. However we both decided that we don't quite understand the emotions that are going on. It's all too complex. So for the time being no action is to be taken until we know we are ready. Interestingly enough we talked about an MFM and for the first time out of the bedroom she was open to the idea.

 

You guys are making good decisions

 

Julie once offered me some advice, " Sometimes, It's like helping to find pieces to a puzzle "

 

I didn't get that till this morning, reading this.....

 

I personally may never see the complete picture in your relationship or as swingers. But you will, as it develops.

 

Thank you, for helping me !

[mixtupcpl 169]

Loki, is that you? I kid, I kid!

 

Seriously though, I think you should be sure you know where your girlfriend really stands on all of this. You guys have only been together a few years (unless I misread). Thats actually not a very long time, to be honest.

 

Someone made the comment that it sounds like you want to be a cuckold. I kind of tend to agree with that based on what you've written.

 

From what you've described, your girlfriend seems to have jumped in pretty enthusiastically. I think you need to spend a lot more time focused specifically on her feelings/emotions/wants/needs. Make sure that you guys are really in the same place and that she is satisfied physically and emotionally in your current relationship. That there were no skeletons lurking in your closet and that this new arrangement isnt just going to be an outlet to relieve pressures that may have been building.

 

I think *any* arrangement can work (at least for some period of time) as long as both people are really being honest about where they are emotionally and what they want. But I think often, things can go horribly wrong because one person is letting the excitement of it all kind of cloud their view of what the other party may really be thinking.

[WonderWhat 166]

On the way home we talked about how she felt and what I felt. She was truthful and felt that she was attracted and was looking at me to see if I liked what I saw. However we both decided that we don't quite understand the emotions that are going on. It's all too complex. So for the time being no action is to be taken until we know we are ready. Interestingly enough we talked about an MFM and for the first time out of the bedroom she was open to the idea.

 

Bravo!

 

That's the way most of us here have dipped our toes and found our boundaries. Baby steps, think about it together and talk, talk, talk.

 

That line you just crossed is a really exciting moment in a relationship: complex and unknown emotions and situations are not frightening anymore. They're something to be worked on as a couple, and that attitude starts to find its way into other aspects of your lives, enriching them immensely.

[Alex855 16]

I just wanted to clear up a few things

 

mixtupcpl said:

Loki, is that you? I kid, I kid!

 

oh don't even kid about that. I read that thread...

 

mixtupcpl said:

Seriously though, I think you should be sure you know where your girlfriend really stands on all of this. You guys have only been together a few years (unless I misread). Thats actually not a very long time, to be honest.

 

I hear you and just to clarify actually we have been together for 11 years

 

mixtupcpl said:

From what you've described, your girlfriend seems to have jumped in pretty enthusiastically.

 

I would disagree since it has taken years get to this point. And only seems to let loose with a alcohol. Actually that was a topic of our conversation and part of the reason we decided to take a step back. We aren't ready

 

mixtupcpl said:

I think you need to spend a lot more time focused specifically on her feelings/emotions/wants/needs. Make sure that you guys are really in the same place and that she is satisfied physically and emotionally in your current relationship. That there were no skeletons lurking in your closet and that this new arrangement isn't just going to be an outlet to relieve pressures that may have been building.

 

I think *any* arrangement can work (at least for some period of time) as long as both people are really being honest about where they are emotionally and what they want. But I think often, things can go horribly wrong because one person is letting the excitement of it all kind of cloud their view of what the other party may really be thinking.

 

i just wanted to say thank you all for the advice. I am soaking all of this in like a sponge.

[Alex855 16]

update... a year and 2 months later lol...see guys I told you I move at a snails' pace and that I have patience...

 

Ok, well, we put it in the back burner for sure. The only time this topic came up in the last year was a few months ago when we were at a party and a close friend of mine kept talking to my gf about sex. That's nothing new and its blatantly obvious that he finds her attractive as it comes out when he drinks. But it ends there.

On the way home i took the opportunity to say something just to bring the topic back from the dead. So in mid conversation I told her that it was so obvious that George (my friend) would love to fuck her. She replied 'I know lol', then I said 'he's been wanting to for years, and you know he would pound you hard, especially if he found out that you are a backdoor girl'... 'Yeah I know lol' and we laughed. I said that because she likes it a little rough and he would do that. As that's how he does it (I've known him since we were teens) and plus he is completely infatuated with the backdoor, add that to the lust and it doesn't take a genius to know how it would go down.

I must apologize but i gotta go right now. I'll continue in a few as that story has relevance.

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

I want to say how much I appreciate you keeping us updated on how things are progressing. Every relationship has a story, and your journey along the path of swinging, whether it results in swinging or not, is an education for all of us. I know I personally appreciate all the patience you've exhibited in this with respect to your girlfriend, and this thread stands in stark contrast to the Loki thread you've read before. It's this kind of story that can be pointed to as an opposite case of Loki's, an opposite case of how TO do it, rather than the way Loki went about it.

 

So indeed, passing the popcorn is an apt analogy. This is a great story, well worth the reading, and thank you SO much for sharing and continuing to share!

[LFM2 1,482]

Agreed, Alex. I also appreciate you keeping us updated and for sharing something so personal in your life.

[The Fuse 1,012]

Alex...

 

Come back!!!

 

Please come back!

 

... We all want to know... what happened next? (Well, at least I do.)

[Alex855 16]

Sorry I'm back? First, it's me that should be thanking you all for taking the time to answer my questions, and responding to my concerns as well as providing your insight. Didn't really mean to keep you all in suspense, I really apologize for that.

Continuation:

Ok, so when got home we started getting busy. In the middle of it she asked me to pound her (typically) in the gist of it I asked her to tell me exactly who would love to that to her. She answered and came instantly. Ok now the reason I did that was to keep something tangible in her mind just so the topic isn't completely dead.

Imo this is the important part:

Ok fast foward to about a month ago. We were talking on the phone during my lunch hour when out of the blue she said she wanted to tell me about a dream that she had. Well her dream was that we were having a threesome with an ex co-worker of hers named charlie. She described in detail where charlie was on the bottom, her on top of him and me entering her from behind. She also described in her dream that she would come home and tell me that charlie had fucked her that day and that I couldn't keep my hands off her. The last part of the dream was that we had had another threesome with charlie, after we were done I went to go use the rest room and when I came back I found them cuddling and got upset. Apparently I was mad that they were getting past the physical point as cuddling is venturing into the emotional attachment of things.

Now I just listened and let her tell me the dream. As clinical as I could. I made comments like that sounds fun but I made it a point to agree about her dream's observation regarding emotional boundaries.

Ok I found all of that extremely interesting as it had all major components of topics that we have talked about.

1. a threesome where I would be the guy entering her from the rear (shes fully aware of where id like to be)

2. earlier in our talks I expressed how hot it would be for her to come home to fucked (that idea had been abandoned)

3. the emotional boundaries. As to have expressed that what would be upsetting to me would be an emotional attachment.

What I really think is that she really didn't have a dream but in fact was testing the waters in a safe fashion. Yes even though I have expressed my true feelings it seems that she truly had doubts about how I would really feel. Fair enough.

As I needed to get back to work we hung up. Now this is the first time that she has brought up the subject on her own. Wow...I knew I had been really clinical about the whole thing so id figured id better make a move and for the first time show some lusty interest outside the bedroom.

So I texted her: damn babe that was one fucking hot dream.

She: really??? The way you reacted was if we were talking about the weather.

Me: well I was out in the parking lot so I had to remain constrained. But damn that was hot!!!

S: really???

M: yeah really!!! I have a total hard-on so I have to stay seated in my office till it goes away. Tell me something did you pleasure yourself when you woke up this morning?

S: yes

I ended the conversation by sending her a dirty picture of two guys and one girl with the caption of "that's hot..."

Now when I got home she was watering the plants and had a glass of wine. She was a little tipsy and since that's out of character I asked her what was the deal with the drinking. She said she needed some liquid courage and to have a seat.

Ok she sat down and said 'ok don't get mad but I have something to say, I've been thinking about this the whole day and I really don't want you to get mad... I know that you want to have a threesome and I want to please you. So ok... If that what you want I'm willing. I think we should call George, he would do me'

I chuckled and said: 'of course he would lol. But baby yes I would like to but only if you want to as well. I'm not comfortable with you doing this because of me. Serious, I am not comfortable with that. I'm not going to have you do anything that you don't want yourself.'

She replied 'I dont want this for myself, but I know I would enjoy it. Seriously we should call him. I want to make you happy.'

Me: 'you know I love you more than anything. I don't want to do it until you want it. Because you wanting it makes me want it. Hey let's play it by ear if one day it happens, it happens. If not then whatever.'

Funny she looked a little disappointed lol.


Ok, this what I gather. Finally she really wants to we still have major hurdles. I mean why would I get mad about her bringing up a threesome? I've been more than clear about my wants, and insecurities.

I need to help her realize that it  is ok to admit to me that she wants to have another man inside her.

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago I broached the subject again in hopes of getting over some hurdles. Out of the blue I asked her if she really meant it. She replied 'yes I love you I want to make you happy. And obviously doing me like that would make you happy'. Then I asked her if she really thought she would enjoy doing me and George at the same time. She said 'yes'. So just to drive it home more I said 'but do you really realize what that means? It's George and me you know you would get pounded from both ends, and for who knows how long. Would ' she replied 'yeah I know, I figured as much'

I ended the conversation with 'meh ok if it happens it happens... No hurry'

So that's where we are at... I know that I have the green light but I do believe that I'm correct in holding out until she willingly comes out and admits that she wants this too.

Your thoughts as always are greatly appreciated.

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

Alex855 said:

so that's where we are at... i know that i have the green light but i do believe that I'm correct in holding out until she willingly comes out and admits that she wants this too.

 

Your thoughts as always are greatly appreciated.

 

No, it's really a red flag, not a green light. She's further along in her thought process than she was, but I still don't see that the two of you are ready for this. I agree with you 100% in holding out until she wants it for herself, and isn't doing it primarily because you want it.

 

This has been a point of discussion with my wife and I on a number of occasions, especially early on in swinging. It took a long time before she was happy and comfortable telling me that she wanted to have sex with other men, and then more time before she was comfortable expressing desire for a particular man.

 

There might (might) be a possibility that she's allowing herself some room for comfort by way of telling herself "I'm doing this because my SO wants it, yes I'll enjoy it, but if I don't it's ok because I'm doing it for him". Coming out from underneath that blanket takes a lot of courage, to be able to openly say "Honey, I love you, and I want to have sex with other men". Sooo much of social programming tells us those two ideas are mutually exclusive and can not honestly exist in the same sentence.

 

Your wife isn't there yet. She may be tomorrow, or never. She may be there now, but just not comfortable expressing it. Regardless, she has to be clear on her part that she's doing this because she wants it. Yes, she can and should get pleasure knowing that you are getting pleasure from watching her have sex with someone else.

 

My wife and I feed off of each other in this way. I would never gain pleasure from watching her have sex with someone if I didn't know she wanted it for herself. I would want to leave, and it wouldn't be erotic in any respect. But, when I know she wants it the mutual pleasure we get from each other being happy is a moment multiple *100. She knows I love it, I know she loves it, and it's awesome.

 

It's an age old saying around here that one spouse playing because the other wants them to is a major, major, major red flag and people who know this about a particular couple will not play with them. It's a drama bomb waiting to go off. Now, I'm not seeing a drama bomb waiting to go off here, but I do see that she's not ready just yet. It's an erotic thought to her, and drives fantasies. But, still more time is needed.

 

Just an idea I'll throw out; not a tool to convince her, but to assist in expressing herself. If you're out and about and you notice a man you think she'd be attract to, you can ask her "What do you think of him? Not that we're going to make a proposition to him, but would you want to have sex with him?" It's a means of helping her to feel more comfortable in expressing physical attraction for someone other than you.

[slevin 1,374]

I think there is a very good chance that she is protecting her 'good girl self image'. If she tells you that she wants it as much as you do then she has to accept that. It contradicts the self image of a monoagmous 'good girl' that she may have built for herself. A lot of people can only have one image of themselves; she can't be both the sexually open seductress and the good housewife...in her head. There is a chance that she is fully ok with what you two are talking about and just doesn't want to openly admit it. She may never get to a point where she will openly say she wants it. Is that a red flag? Generally, but I don't think it always has to be.

 

On another front, I don't think I would recommend bringing your friend into this. Yes it is easier to do that since you know him, she finds him attractive and you know he is interested. The risks of bringing in friends far outweigh the perceived convenience. The opinion on this is divided around here, but I am firmly in the "don't play with friends" category. Add to that your friends overt flirting with her even though he doesn't know you are considering swinging and I question whether he would be a good person to swing with. You know him and your friendship the best though, perhaps flirty is a normal thing within your group.

[The Fuse 1,012]

I agree with the earlier posters. Until she's ready to really own her desires and talk about them like they're hers and not abdicate responsibility, you're in dangerous territory.

 

She has to know it's okay. She has to be participating without holding out that little piece that says, "I didn't really want to".

[Alex855 16]

bbarnsworth thanks for noting how my thread is not like the loki thread... jeez that thread was horrible.

 

yeah what can i say other than it didnt sit well with me without her being a willing partner. i believe in time she'll most likely come around and thats fine im no hurry, and if she never does then thats fine too. btw thats a great idea regarding pointing out men just to get her comfortable in expressing her wants in a safe manner.

 

slevin,

 

i too believe that she is having issues with the good girl persona. everything that she has expressed certainly points to that. but hey i dont know much about women except to never pressume to know what their are thinking lol.

 

and as far as my friend is concerned: he wasnt being flirty just obvious that he finds her attractive (since he had been drinking). and yeah i see what you are saying about the whole mixing with friends. at the moment i merely used him as a means to an an end. in other words just to keep the topic current.

 

well thats it for now. ill update when anything (if anything) interesting develops.

[tscpl 93]

I agree with some of the other posters.The idea of swinging is a very serious matter in the context of marriage.After all it goes up against the traditional teachings of Christian churches.Therefore it must be left to the individuals to decide at their own pace how they want to proceed or not.Neither one nor the other must feel pushed or in any other way forced into something they later regret.Patience and good communication between the couple will eventually guide their decision.

[JM153 346]

Alex, I have just completed reading the entire thread and congratulate you on how you have handled the situation. It is clear that you love her and want what is best for her and not just what you find hot for yourself. Having read everything with fresh eyes I echo what Barnsworth and Slevin have stated about her image of herself may be getting in the way. Society makes being a slut a bad thing and labels non monogamous sex as slutty. She may not only have difficulty in admitting to you that she wants another guy, but she may also have trouble admitting it to herself. I don't really have a solution, except to continue to express that having sex with different men does not make a woman a bad person. If she can accept this concept it will help her with her own self image.

[DocWill 83]

The fact that she keeps adding the phrases that suggest that she wants to do it because it’ll make YOU happy is the red flag here. This is my own opinion, but you shouldn’t consider moving forward until she can tell you that she wants to do it because it’s something SHE wants to do WITH you, not because of you. If she continues to keep adding that tag line it’s for one of two reasons; either because she’s not ready, or because she’s not being completely honest with you... to protect your feelings, her sense of dignity, or most importantly… her level of responsibility.

 

I think you both are on the cusp of reality here, and there’s really nothing you can do or say to tip the scales aside from actually asking her if she wants to it for real because it’ll turn her on, and that you have a plan to make it happen.

 

Mrs. Will was almost in the same boat as your GF until I told her that I had spoken to a mutual friend and that he had agreed to join us. Now, I KNEW she wasn’t going to get mad at me for asking him, but I also didn’t know what she would say (though I had a REALLY good idea)- so I did take a small risk. The way I did it put the ball in her court to actually make a decision without hurting our relationship- and she chose to get it on!

 

I’m not saying that what I did was the best way to move forward… baby steps, baby steps, baby steps… BUT, you will have to JUMP eventually. I don’t believe that there’s a baby step that you can take that leads to another man fucking your GF with you. If you trust each other, are comfortable with talking about it without the sex and wine, and can mutually agree that you both WANT to do it… it’ll happen when the time is right.

 

Good luck!

[couplers 4,640]

Hi, this is Petra. Once again, I have reached the totally opposite conclusion from the other recent posters. She wants to go ahead with it, but can't believe that you are OK with it and wants to give you every opportunity to back out, both as to the entire idea and any specific guy. Like me, she can't believe her luck and your love. Unlike me, she is hesitant to act on it.

 

 

It may be good to take it slowly, but your hesitancy has gone on too long and is now getting in the way. Admit that you would like her to do it and tell her that it is up to her to choose when, where, with whom. You guys have made so many starts you are teasing yourselves as well as us here.

[couplers 4,640]

Thinking about it more, really, why the angst? Why delay any longer? She had sex with other guys before you met (or maybe even after you met but before you two were a couple), and that's not an issue. It's not an issue for just about any vanilla couple any more. So take the next step. Both of you are willing, so why put off something that everyone here enjoys so much? Maybe it won't be absolutely great the first time out, but give it some resonable thought and start. It will be good, then you can make it great.

 

 

I agree that going slowly and in sync is important, but you guys are both willing and on the same page. Only semantics are standing in the way.

[ashncurt 90]

Alex you've mentioned before about leaving swinger sites open and what not on your computer. Why not bring her here. Let her read your thread. Let her read about others. Let her answer some of her own questions. She maybe trying to tell you she is ready but the way she is telling you is giving you the red flags and she may not even know it. Bring her here let her read the thread and set down and talk about it.

[Alex855 16]

oh wow time flies... another year and two months. I wanted to give everyone an update:

 

Well did we ever go through with it? Not yet, not even close. In the past I went really slow in order to get that seed to grow. And it paid off as she started to bring it up and talk about it. Things were moving great so what happened then you ask? Well life happened. 2011 has been an extremely tough year so going through with this was the last thing on our minds.

 

So what exactly happened in 2011? Well first we put our house for sale (no biggie), then there was a death in my girlfriend's family which she took extremely hard, followed by me losing my job due to the economy. So as you all can see from all this turmoil the matter was dropped. I will say that through this whole year our relationship remained strong, in fact we heavily relied on each other (as we should) during the tough times. Luckily 2011 has turned around for us and here is the outcome:

 

1. The house was taken off the market as selling it causes anxiety on its own... nevermind adding a death.

 

2. Sadly my gf actually spiraled into depression due to the death. After weeks of this (I wont get into the specifics) she listened to my advice and actually sought help. She began seeing a therapist (more on this later) and thankfully she bounced back.

 

3. Regarding my job situation. My work place started laying people off in mid 2008 and finally my turn came. But at least they gave me a decent severance and offered great references. Thankfully I got a contract position after only two months of being unemployed. And a month after that I was offered a full time position at a company that I had been wanting to work for a long time. So even though it was really scary there my employment situation worked out for the best.

 

4. We got MARRIED!!! After over a decade it is official. It was a very small and nice ceremony Given that we were practically married we swore it would not change a thing, but it did. It made us closer.

[Alex855 16]

ok now on the therapist:

 

During the sessions she dove into all aspects of her life. One day she told me that she was going to bring up the topic of sharing her in the bedroom. Quite frankly I didn't know what to say so I asked her why she wanted to do that. She replied because its not considered normal and she wanted to see what a professional had to say on the matter. Honestly I thought 'uh oh... what is he gonna say? will the Dr. be biased and thus ruin it?' Whatever... I'm not a controlling guy so if she feels that she wants to talk about it, then I am not going to interfere.

 

So she told the good Dr... all of it. He first replied that human sexuality is quite complex and that fantasizing about a partner having sex with someone else is quite common, for both sexes. And that it actually shows a healthy attraction towards their mate. so dont think that there is anything wrong with your bf. From everything you told me he seems to be a positive figure in your life. The question is how do you feel about it? Is that something you want to do?

 

She replied 'it is appealing but its not normal, relationships are not supposed be like that. I'm not supposed to want other men'

 

Then he said 'We are wired to be attracted to multiple partners. So dont dwell on that. Now in relationships there isn't any set rules. what works for some doesn't work for others. Take for example that some people who have been married for fifty years and are completely monogamous, may be completely miserable. Then there are those who are sexually adventurous who do not abide by the social rules and it may turn out they may be completely happy. There are multiple factors that contribute to a good relationship and sex is only one factor. It's your life, do what makes you happy. Society shouldn't dictate what you do in your private life behind closed doors.'

 

huh... Even though it's all true I wasn't expecting that. lol...

 

Now that things are much better (and stable) lets see if I can bring this back on track.

 

A penny for your thoughts?

[Alex855 16]

Couplers,

 

Sorry for not answering. Why the angst you asked? Well to be honest I keep waiting for the perfect situation and for her to truly admit that she wants to. The way that I feel is that I got time on my hands. Sorry if I have dragged this out but I'd rather take too long and have her itching for it, than having this backfire by jumping in too soon.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

Congratulations on your marriage.

 

2011 may have been a challenging year for you two, but years like that can make you stronger as a couple, improving your appreciation and understanding of each other.

 

Here's to a great 2012 for both of you!

[Chicup 41]

Alex855 said:

A penny for your thoughts?

 

I think the Dr. is a swinger or in an 'alternative' relationship

 

He's right of course, but so many don't get it, that when someone actually understands it I make assumptions.

[armi555 15]

I tried to read or glance through the post. I've been with my now wife for 17 years, married 15 and we're now in our 40's. I was pretty wild in my single life, but by age 35, my wife had only been with a few, mostly because she stayed with one man for so long. I had fantasy of others in my previous marriage and it came up a few times, but there we're too many trust issues and problems.

 

I slowly made others part of our lovemaking and even though it took some time, my wife grew into it and really enjoyed it. Sometimes I felt like I may have gotten carried away in some of our fantasy talk and fantasy sex with others and would ask her "doe's this bother her", wanting to be sure she has no problem with it and she clearly states she loves this aspect of our sex life.

 

Why we considered other actual people we never moved into that realm, just now slowly starting. Actually, we just met with a couple yesterday for lunch and we're all meeting tonight at my getaway cabin to cook out and see how it goes.

 

I do know both have to be 100% in love, complete trust with no jealousy issues, if I didn't feel I had that with her or her me, we would never venture into it. For us this is about us and fulfilling fantasy and taking OUR sex lives to a higher level.

 

See, due to our culture much stigma is placed on sex. My wife and I both grew up in fundy churches. It took me years, but why I still have beliefs I hate religion because it mostly controls us with fear and guilt, not love for others, religion often breeds hate, racism and bias towards others. It took us both years of study to shed much of the bias religion and culture ingrained in us. This culture still exist today and even has great effect on secular people and marriage and I think it effects us all at some level.

 

I do think most responsible swinging married couples are very moral loving people. Certainly many singles probably get involved for sex, but I think the married couples that do this really love and respect their partners so much so that swinging is much more than sex, it's about fulfilling each other.

 

I think it's important to test your motives, if I had any doubts about my partners trust or emotions, I wouldn't do it. It's very important to let your partner know they come first and this is about you two equally and you want them and would never leave them regardless if they swung or not. Even with all my wild desires, I love my wife and would never cheat on her. In 15 years of marriage, I can honestly say I've never had a desire to go find another woman, I haven't so much as held another womans hand. Even in my private sex life masturbating my wife is part of it, not that she would care if I didn't. Sure, I'm sexually attracted to other women and may have thoughts in the moment, but I've never desired to cheat and I can tell my wife anything that goes through my mind without jealousy or being judged.

 

I don't have experience to judge others. I'm sure the emotions behind swinging are complex and differ with people as in all things. I do think married swingers trust so completly they are able to disconnect sex from stigma and it's about both, not one partner. Married swingers would be devestated if their partners cheated on them by breaking their set bounderies or emotional betrayal.

 

It's a shame that society deems somehow these people are less in love with their partners, they would feel much the same emotional pain if their partner betrayed them as any other, maybe moreso because they have enough maturity and love that they can be honest with their partner, whereas most people keep their inner desires hidden from their partner. I have no doubt the reason for so much cheating and divorce in the real world is due to couples not being able to share their most inner thoughts without fear or jealousy, this breeds an inner distrust. We all know we have these thoughts to a degree, if my wife and I couldn't share these, then all you can do is suspect what is going on in their mind, which leads to suspicion, distrust and often betrayal.

 

By reading the post, I can't say that I think you two are quite there, but the question may be more needing more time to work through the issues. I do think it would be a bad idea for any newly married couple to start swinging during periods of emotional trauma until those issues are resolved. I do think you can build a much stronger bond during trauma that will build the trust where you could share this. I do know trauma, during these events just naturally for us we don't include as much fantasy and it becomes more emotional.

 

My partner knows my desires, but she knows she is first and I would never risk losing her over any fantasy, for us, if we take it to the next level, it will be about each other, not just sex..If reality doesn't work out like fantasy, we have no problem with just each other.