"friends" in the lifestyle

[theboy 175]

I'm confounded by some of the experiences we've had since a year ago when we started in the lifestyle. While the majority of them have been good, we've always maintained that we don't mind having more friends if things don't work out with the couples that we're with for whatever reason. We've tried to maintain this, and have introduced lots of our friends to lots of our other friends. The concept was that we could build a 'social network' of sorts and have all of our friends be able to get together and do things together. And that happened, to be honest. There's one couple in particular that we've gotten to know that we absolutely adore and would do anything for. But we've also had some terrible experiences in trying to maintain these friends.

 

I guess our first bad experience was of a couple that we met at a local dance. All went ok, the guy had some performance issues, and we tried to make things ok for him. Ultimately, we didn't play with them again for other reasons, but this couple was one that we later found where they were dissolving their marriage. They ended up splitting up, but not before making some dramatic issues in our lives with people we've introduced them to. The woman of the couple, operating out of jealousy with our 'successes', tried her level-best to torpedo plans we had already made with another set of friends. We obviously aren't friends with her anymore.

 

The second bad experience was a girl we had met through a website that lived close to us. Because of a variety of issues in their marriage, we didn't play with them either. One night, at a house party we were both at, I drank a LOT of whiskey and had my inhibitions lowered. I had sex with the wife, and afterwards she did some unspeakable things. One of these things was to try to convince a girl that we were getting to know that I was 'sexually assulting' her. I did no such thing, and the girl thought it was outrageous that she'd make that statement. However, this 'friend' I had sex with tried to get her to report me to the police. This of course never happened but the fact that it was brought up was probably the most offensive thing that I've ever had done to me in my life. The friend had some sexual abuse issues in her childhood, I'm not sure how it related to this, but everyone in attendence (it was at a dance that she was trying to do this) knew it was insanity as they were witness to it all.

 

The third bad experience, what really prompted me to start this thread, just happened yesterday. We have been friends with this other local couple, and have also swung with them a few times. Each time we've done so everything has seemed ok, everyone enjoyed themselves. After the last time, the husband of the other couple made statements about watching me with the other wife, and perhaps joining us. My wife and I are quite ok with some of this, but we're not really the type that gets off on seeing each other with someone, unless it's with a threesome arrangement with a single person. This preference had been known to this couple, as we readily admit that we prefer separate room playtimes. So, we told this couple that we'd work on becoming more visible, including some watching time, whatever. Compromise, right?

 

So a month passes and we have yet to do anything sexual with them, but do hang out with them occasionally. Suddenly, out of nowhere the woman of the couple gets on yahoo and starts acting rudely towards my wife. She starts saying how demanding my wife is and that she always needs to be the center of attention. She's apparently upset, and we eventually get told that we swing incorrectly, and so forth.

 

The husband signs on, the first time in over a month that he has done so, and starts to talk to my wife. And only to my wife, he doesn't want me to have a say in the matter. He starts talking down to her, making references to how she should be 'adult', and so forth. Basically, his way or the highway, is what he says. My wife, feeling like she was being bullied to doing what he wanted, gave me control of the keyboard, and I talk to him (against his wishes, I guess). Anyway, I told him that he nor his wife weren't speaking respectfully and I didn't appreciate it, and that we're done with the swinging with them for good. They say they still want to be friends, but after the attempted bullying and such I don't feel like I can be friends with someone who does not respect us.

 

So here's the basic 'jist' of this post. Is having friends in the lifestyle sustainable, and is it something that we can and should be doing? I feel like now I understand those profiles that say "we're not looking for friends, we already have those". Some of our best and most fun experiences have been with people that we're not 'friends' with, but were sexual with. A large number of those that we developed further friendships with have ended up causing issues.

 

We've enjoyed all of these friends while times were good, but it keeps on coming back and biting us in the ass, as it were. What do you think, about friends in the lifestyle? Are we just picking bad apple after bad apple, and should we just keep it on a purely sexual level?

[LFM2 1,482]

With friends like that, you definitely don't need any enemies...

 

Drama... Exactly why we don't really get involved socially with the people we have sex with. Sounds harsh, but to us, it's the cold, hard truth.

[MrkLin 393]

Your post, the boy, is a good demonstration of why we don’t associate with our lifestyle friends outside of a lifestyle setting. Yes, we’re lifestyle friends – but nothing more. We don’t go out to dinner, go fishing, hit the theater, or anything else with our lifestyle friends, and keeping things this way has kept us out of a lot of drama. We had a situation with a single male not long after we first got into this that turned us off (he just got way, way too ‘familiar’ with Lin, and I had to start reminding him that she was my wife – not his,) and we decided to try to keep the lifestyle separate from our regular life from then on. One couple tried to draw us into their marital problems, and we backed away from both of them so fast it wasn’t funny. We prefer to keep our lifestyle friends just that, and we’ve kept almost all of them friends for several years now.

 

We get together with our lifestyle friends at parties, swinger’s events, and at the clubs – that’s all. It makes the times we’re together that much more special, doesn’t breed familiarity or complacency, and reduces the amount of relationship drama to almost nil. So far we’ve only had one couple want to try to cross the line we’ve drawn between friends and lifestyle friends. We invited them over to our house one evening and explained our reasons for not wanting to cross that line – it had absolutely nothing to do with them personally, it was just the way we preferred to keep things. They understood our position, and actually agreed with us after thinking about their history with some couples in their past. A year later, they’re still our lifestyle friends and come to all of our parties.

 

Now, what I just described works for us. We know some couples who want to become friends with the other couple before there is any play. If that works for you, fine – we’re happy for you. We just feel that there isn’t a lot of difference between trying to turn your vanilla friends into swingers and trying to turn your lifestyle friends into vanillas – our opinion is that’s exactly what you’re trying to do. You may disagree, and that’s fine too. It’s just our opinion – nothing more. Look back over your history with couples you’ve socialized with outside of the lifestyle as well as within the lifestyle, then look within for your answer. Of course, your actual mileage may vary…

[The Fuse 1,012]

Wow.

 

It sounds to me like the people who have become part of your social circle are unstable as people, regardless of swinging. But when you add sex to the mix, any instability in someone's character has a good chance of being amplified.

 

When we try to become friends with swingers, we are always on the lookout for signs of problems within others' marriages or just with the people as individuals. If someone so much as gives off the wrong vibe (especially if they give off the wrong vibe), we stay away, don't play, and aren't friendly beyond light conversation. We have had a few friendships that have lasted more than a year. Almost all of those have ended for one reason or another, but never as a result of our choice. I guess we are just rejects .

 

We haven't encountered any really bad things like the stuff the OP describes. But we are very picky about who we become friends with. The worst thing we have encountered is people who don't tell the truth about what they are thinking, and then suddenly turn around and cut you off.

[lustylearning 705]

You can't be friends with everyone, inside or outside of the lifestyle. Friendship requires time, effort, and resources. Be careful about who you give those things to.

 

Those who are nice can be easy targets for the unstable and the aggressive.

[theboy 175]

With friends like that, you definitely don't need any enemies...

 

Drama... Exactly why we don't really get involved socially with the people we have sex with. Sounds harsh, but to us, it's the cold, hard truth.

 

See, we've always thought that the whole openness of swinging, and really the whole mindset of people that do it, are enjoyable to be around. So we thought (perhaps erroneously) that we could incorporate these people into our everyday lives.

 

We hold so many secrets, and it was good to be able to have some people whom we didn't keep our 'hobby' as we refer to it a secret from.

[thegirl 22]

You can't be friends with everyone, inside or outside of the lifestyle. Friendship requires time, effort, and resources. Be careful about who you give those things to.

 

We are good people... and we LOVE having friends around us. We love to have friends over for dinner... playing video games... hanging out with them... Giving our time, effort and resources come easily to us.

 

Those who are nice can be easy targets for the unstable and the aggressive.

 

I think this is exactly the problem. We are definitely too nice. We genuinely care about people and that does seem to be getting us in trouble.

 

(by the way, I am the OP's wife! LOL)

[theboy 175]

Your post, the boy, is a good demonstration of why we don’t associate with our lifestyle friends outside of a lifestyle setting. Yes, we’re lifestyle friends – but nothing more. We don’t go out to dinner, go fishing, hit the theater, or anything else with our lifestyle friends, and keeping things this way has kept us out of a lot of drama. We had a situation with a single male not long after we first got into this that turned us off (he just got way, way too ‘familiar’ with Lin, and I had to start reminding him that she was my wife – not his,) and we decided to try to keep the lifestyle separate from our regular life from then on. One couple tried to draw us into their marital problems, and we backed away from both of them so fast it wasn’t funny. We prefer to keep our lifestyle friends just that, and we’ve kept almost all of them friends for several years now.

 

I'm beginning to think that this sort of setup is the wisest system. Really, the first couple we had a problem with appeared to be stable. Longer marriage, just built a house together, etc etc... Then they took their masks off after we had already got very involved in everything, and showed their true selves.

 

The second couple, well, that was probably my fault.

 

The third, another nice appearing professional couple. Everything's fine, then suddenly we step on a drama-landmine and their masks come off. When you incorporate people into your lives, it becomes difficult to 'oust' them, especially if they've become friends with your friends and so forth.

 

 

Now, what I just described works for us. We know some couples who want to become friends with the other couple before there is any play. If that works for you, fine – we’re happy for you. We just feel that there isn’t a lot of difference between trying to turn your vanilla friends into swingers and trying to turn your lifestyle friends into vanillas – our opinion is that’s exactly what you’re trying to do. You may disagree, and that’s fine too. It’s just our opinion – nothing more. Look back over your history with couples you’ve socialized with outside of the lifestyle as well as within the lifestyle, then look within for your answer. Of course, your actual mileage may vary…

 

We don't require friendships before/after any play but we had previously been both ok with it and interested in pursuing it with people we felt we could do so with. I'm not so sure that this is going to be the case anymore.

 

I think whenever you get involved with someone, whether in swinging or no, there's the chance that you're going to get involved with some of their drama. How much of this is because of the swinging, and how much is just people being people?

 

Thank you for your feedback.. I hope that I can use this forum to gain some further insight. I don't think of ourselves as 'swinging newbies' anymore, but we're for sure not at the pro level LOL

[theboy 175]

Those who are nice can be easy targets for the unstable and the aggressive.

 

As my wife describes, this may be part of the problem we have as well. I think we're just too nice, too accepting, and as such we look past faults. Granted, some of these have been hidden pretty well underneath long term marriages (the controlling guy, the splitting marriage, etc). But I think if we had gotten to know them longer before introducing them to others we know....

 

but again that goes back to the feeling that we *can* have friends as swingers and swingers as friends. And right now, after this last one, I don't know if it's possible moving forward to be anything but friendly to people at events and such. It's a total change from where we were in perspective.

[lustylearning 705]

(by the way, I am the OP's wife! LOL)

 

So glad to have you with us:)

[LFM2 1,482]

See, we've always thought that the whole openness of swinging, and really the whole mindset of people that do it, are enjoyable to be around. So we thought (perhaps erroneously) that we could incorporate these people into our everyday lives.

 

We hold so many secrets, and it was good to be able to have some people whom we didn't keep our 'hobby' as we refer to it a secret from.

 

Sorry if my previous post came across rather rash. I really didn't mean it to. First of all, you didn't do anything wrong. I don't want you to think that you did.

 

We meet our partners online. We meet once in public to feel each other out. There are couples in the lifestyle that share picnics, BBQ's, babysit their partners kids. They must be pretty successful at it since they're all still friends, but what's going to happen when one partner wants to get closer to the other or what's going to happen when one partner gets a jealous streak? We don't need that. We prefer not to blend in socially that way with the couples we play with. We're more of a "Thanks, we had a great time, we'll get together again for some fun" and leave it at that.

 

We see them at meet & greets, lifestyle parties, tell each other via email Happy Holidays, etc... We don't want to be their best friends. We have each other to share with. We tell each other our secrets. I know what you mean though. Mr. Truelove had a sig line that read, "The most fun you can never tell anyone about" or something really close. I really can empathize with your situation. Sometimes, people have different agendas than you do. If you can pick them out, you're good. We just like to keep our social life separate from our bedroom life just for this reason that you've posted about.

[lustylearning 705]

And right now, after this last one, I don't know if it's possible moving forward to be anything but friendly to people at events and such. It's a total change from where we were in perspective.

 

Your feelings are perfectly understandable. For what it's worth, a year is not that long in the lifestyle - you're in the "learning a lot of things the hard way" period (at least it was like that for us). The lessons you learn now will help guide your future, and you'll figure out what works best for you. Take your time. There's no rush.

[theboy 175]

Sorry if my previous post came across rather rash. I really didn't mean it to. First of all, you didn't do anything wrong. I don't want you to think that you did.

 

Oh no, it wasn't rash or anything. I appreciate all feedback and would rather have it 'given to me straight' than have it laid out all non-confrontationally and such anyway

 

There are couples in the lifestyle that share picnics, BBQ's, babysit their partners kids. They must be pretty successful at it since they're all still friends, but what's going to happen when one partner wants to get closer to the other or what's going to happen when one partner gets a jealous streak? We don't need that.

 

That's rather similar to the one couple that we're very good friends with now. They have, indeed, become part of our lives and we trust them very much. I'm finding that they're the exception, not the rule.

 

One thing of note though, we started out not really pursuing them sexually, nor they us, because we didn't have what we felt at the time to be compatible desires. We talked anyway and found that we had some stuff in common, and so that's where we went from there.

 

We prefer not to blend in socially that way with the couples we play with. We're more of a "Thanks, we had a great time, we'll get together again for some fun" and leave it at that.

 

We do a LOT of our meeting stuff online, about 90% I'd say. Because of that chatting is a big part of the whole experience, or has been in the past. Do you maintain contact with these people in this manner, or are you guys not really into that either? I'm guessing not.

 

I know what you mean though. Mr. Truelove had a sig line that read, "The most fun you can never tell anyone about" or something really close. I really can empathize with your situation. Sometimes, people have different agendas than you do. If you can pick them out, you're good. We just like to keep our social life separate from our bedroom life just for this reason that you've posted about.

 

I guess we basically wanted to have our cake and eat it too, as it were. I sit here now after the woman from the third couple tried to contact me today again and wonder.... how am I going to excise this person from my day to day life having introduced them to others we know. And then thinking about how we did it the last two times... (sigh)

[theboy 175]

Your feelings are perfectly understandable. For what it's worth, a year is not that long in the lifestyle - you're in the "learning a lot of things the hard way" period (at least it was like that for us). The lessons you learn now will help guide your future, and you'll figure out what works best for you. Take your time. There's no rush.

 

Yeah, I came for the experts While I know a year isn't that long, I feel like we're not quite the newbies trying stuff out for the first time. I also feel like we might have this thing TOTALLY wrong and need correction. School of hard knocks indeed!

 

We spent a good portion of the summer going to all manner of lifestyle events, including some fun camping trips and the like. We called it 'the summer of debauchery' and we enjoyed ourselves greatly. Real life called us back after summer ended, which is good because partying like rockstars all the time - well, I think we're getting too old for that perhaps!

 

Another thing I've noticed, and not necessarily just with the 'bad experience' couples, is that there are a certain amount of marriages of people in the lifestyle that seem to just be going 'poof'. I know of 1 struggling marriage, 1 impending divorce, 1 separation, and so forth just in the past few months. We've stayed away from those (except for the first chameleon like one) pretty well, but... it seems, at least in our neck of the woods, that the lifestyle seems to attract these damaged couples like a bug-zapper in the deep woods. This high probability of failure seems to make them more susceptible to causing issues in our lives.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I hope there'll be more.

[twoforone100 45]

Well I don't see our lifestyle friends and our friends as very different..... One of the reasons we started playing was the fact that all of our friends were at different points in our lives and we were " alone".

 

 

We got married last feb... lifestyle friends (one couple) were the only ones with us in vegas...... Our lifestyle friends knew before anyone else as we posted it on our yahoo while still in vegas... We told no one we we doing it.

 

At the " big wedding party" back in va we had a strange mix of people..... We had about 150 people. Family, Old friends ( some dating back to 76), we had an x wife, we had lifestyle friends. Some thought it strange. Even some of the life style people.... We even heard that it was the "first wedding where I had slept with the bride and the groom and it was even together".. Some had issues with the x wife.. but she is a dear friend and one of the few people who has fought for me. In a real fight. Trust her with my life.. Of course she does not know about the lifestyle. But then neither do the parents. The lifestyle friend you would not have noticed them at the party perfect guest. Yes we did decide who got to come... not everyone we had played with or even call " lifestyle friends" were invited but special peoplle who would be my friend anywhere at anytime were.

 

 

I have always said that I have very few friends. But those I call friend I would trust with my life... I can count this on both hands usually it has grown a little but still both hand and both feet.

 

 

I am friendly with lots... Hi how are you. People I will help move. People I would pick up and take to the hospital. This list is a bit bigger.. but stilll under 30 or so...

 

 

The rest of the world fall in next..... Can't say i really care about the rest of them at all. I always protect children and the aged.

 

 

You do have to choose who you let close to you.. very carefully I did this before the lifestyle and I will during and I will after.

 

 

ymmv... everyone is different. We are proud to call our friends, friends. No matter how we met them.

[thegirl 22]

 

ymmv... everyone is different. We are proud to call our friends, friends. No matter how we met them.

 

I think this is how we went into this. We thought that we could maintain friendships with these people... because we all were looking for the same things. Friends with benefits.

 

We don't have a lot of friends that are in the same place as us, either... it's nice to have like minded people to have dinner with... or just hang out with.

[twoforone100 45]

I think this is how we went into this. We thought that we could maintain friendships with these people... because we all were looking for the same things. Friends with benefits.

 

We don't have a lot of friends that are in the same place as us, either... it's nice to have like minded people to have dinner with... or just hang out with.

 

exactly..... and we always choose our friends carefully.... It has worked for us..... our best friends we have known almost three years met them on aff.... they were in vegas with us.... Just like with regular friends you go through a screening process ... people self select themselves..... darwinism at work...

[thegirl 22]

exactly..... and we always choose our friends carefully.... It has worked for us..... our best friends we have known almost three years met them on aff.... they were in vegas with us.... Just like with regular friends you go through a screening process ... people self select themselves..... darwinism at work...

 

LOL

 

We thought we did okay with this last couple. We had chatted with them on and off for about 10 months before we finally worked out a time to meet... (we all work full time and have very busy schedules.)

 

When we all finally got together for dinner... there was chemistry... and the conversation was great. The sex was good.

 

Then... a month ago, after our last playdate... we are informed that he wants to be able to watch her with the boy... and even participate. While I just sit in the other room. Alone. Because I don't get turned on watching people have sex.

 

We did try same room stuff with this couple as a compromise... but the other husband couldn't do it with my husband and his wife in the room.

 

I did agree that if he snuck off to peek in on them, I would be totally cool with that... but that I didn't want to be left alone in the other room while he joined in... I thought this was a fairly reasonable compromise.

 

Then, 2 days ago, after not playing with them for over a month, I guess they decided this wasn't good enough... and first the wife calls me a know it all for asking if they had considered finding a single guy to fulfill that aspect of their fantasies... and then suggested I talk to her husband the next day.

 

I agreed. I was told, by him, that our way of swinging is odd. That it's wrong that we don't get turned on by watching each other. I reminded him that we had been upfront about this right from the beginning, that he was the one changing the rules. That if he couldn't work out a compromise with me, then it wasn't going to work. He told me that I was childish and kept telling me to be a grown up.

 

The boy took over the keyboard at this point and told him he was arrogant and that a big part of swinging was compromise and playing by the rules that are set. That's why we chat first to see if people are looking for the same things we are. I was surprised how protective he got of my feelings. He wouldn't answer the boy's questions and just kept getting angry. He told the boy that the conversation was between me and him... and that the boy had no business butting in.

 

After that, the boy said goodnight and signed off.

 

We really had never come across this... we are pretty easy going... and like I said... when he expressed wanting to do things differently, I was very willing to compromise... but that wasn't enough. I think he thought he could bully me into doing what he wanted. I am not exactly the type of woman to be bullied. LOL

 

Anyway... I am tired and rambling. I think I will end it there. The boy can add more if he wants.

 

Thanks for all the advice, everyone.

[ncmd_couple 597]

I guess that this is why we don't have many "close" friends. The fact that this couple has connections with others that you know and play with will work itself out also. Everyone has their own desires when it comes to sex, but to try to brow beat someone into doing it their way is just wrong. Good luck to you both!

 

S

[theboy 175]

Well, the 10 month thing is a LOT longer than any other couple that we've ever waited to meet. That's a bit different than normal for us, but otherwise... yeah that's a good review of what happened with the last one.

 

We're not so 100% set in our ways that we're not willing to compromise, but alas, we'll never know now.

 

I feel like all this could have been avoided if we didn't see them as friends in the in-between stages. And we certainly wouldn't have to deal with seeing them when we get together with our other friends in the future had we kept them all separate.

 

I guess the silver lining is that they're extremely shy swingers, and as such won't be going to any parties.

[theboy 175]

I guess that this is why we don't have many "close" friends. The fact that this couple has connections with others that you know and play with will work itself out also. Everyone has their own desires when it comes to sex, but to try to brow beat someone into doing it their way is just wrong. Good luck to you both!

 

Thanks It seems the more and more we delve into this stuff, the more I'm convinced that the only person that I can trust at all is my wife. So many people seem to have agendas. Maybe our bad experiences have clouded my view of this, but I dunno...

[MrkLin 393]

Thanks It seems the more and more we delve into this stuff, the more I'm convinced that the only person that I can trust at all is my wife. So many people seem to have agendas. Maybe our bad experiences have clouded my view of this, but I dunno...

 

In the case of the last couple, to hell with them. This is a case of "these are our rules, and we play within them." If they can't get that through their thick heads, then it's their problem, not yours. An e-mail letting them know that "in light of recent revelations concerning their true personalities, you've decided that you're not as compatible as you once thought, and that no further contact is needed or desired" might just be in order here. Then move on. If they reply to you, delete it unread and move on. Drop them from your friends list on your messaging program, and don't chat with them any more - block them if you have to. You don't need the head games these people are playing - look at how upset it has made both of you.

 

Think of it this way - they tried to manipulate you and your wife into doing something you didn't/don't want to do. Does that sound like a friend?

 

I think you may be on to something when you said that you think you may be too nice. It's ok to be nice, gracious, and friendly, but if you let it get in the way of good judgment, you will have problems. Being nice doesn't mean letting people walk all over you, and smiling at them while they're doing it.

 

You will find that you're right - everyone does have an agenda. That's normal. Heck, you and I both have an agenda. The trick is to meet and swing with people of similar agendas. You have to remember that, in a lot of respects, swinging with a couple is very similar to dating when you were single. Just as a relationship between two people that is based primarily on sex will usually fail because of other reasons, so will a friendship between two swinging couples. There are always exceptions - I know that. My statements are based on our experiences, and in my discussions with other lifestyle couples when this subject comes up - and it comes up quite frequently. That's why we keep our lifestyle friends as lifestyle friends, and don't try to make them our best buddies.

 

I wouldn't get too cynical - especially this early in the game. There are a lot of good people out there, and maybe you've just had bad luck so far. It happens. Sometimes you do have to wade through a lot of toads before you find the right people, and maybe you just haven't found them yet. I would be a little more careful about letting people get so close so quickly, however. Some people aren't so decent, as you have seen, and will take advantage if they see an opening. It's sad that we have to think that way, but reality is just not what we wish it was sometimes. Still, as you meet more people, you'll discover that there are a lot of nice, decent couples in the lifestyle, and in fact, that they're in the majority.

 

As a final note, yes your wife is the only person you can trust at all. It's supposed to be that way, whether you're in the lifestyle or not.

[IvoryTowers 380]

In terms of the last couple, they were arrogant jerks and you are well rid of them. Friends (of any persuasion) should not browbeat or manipulate you. They had a perfect right to ask for what they wanted, not right at all to blow up when they didn't get it.

 

As for your method of swinging...didn't you get the handbook with the three correct methods clearly described and illustrated with line drawings? Seriously, don't let anyone tell you that you aren't doing it 'correctly'.

 

As for the level of drama or number of marriages breaking up, remember that many marriages end in divorce without swinging, so it might not be the swinging. Or it might be that people are getting into swinging as a last ditch effort to save a marriage (which is about as effective as having a baby for that reason).

 

And finally, your actual question! For me (and I think I speak for Mr. Ivory too) is that swinging actually isn't a lifestyle. It's a hobby. That is, it's a thing we do for fun, to enhance our lives, but not a central defining characteristic. And as with our other hobbies, we have 'hobby friends' very very few of whom make it over to real friends. My husband, for example, has been seeing the same set of people every other weekend for years and yet would never think of inviting them over to dinner.

 

This isn't a bad thing. It's a realization that a) getting 4 people to like each other and spend time together is hard b) we all have very very limited time and so we are protective of how we spend it and with whom c) people you get along with for a short period of time or with whom you share one interest may not be so likable in general.

 

I think the problem we all run into is that this seems so much like dating we think there's something wrong if we don't go the next step and establish a relationship. Not true!

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

So here's the basic 'jist' of this post. Is having friends in the lifestyle sustainable, and is it something that we can and should be doing? I feel like now I understand those profiles that say "we're not looking for friends, we already have those". Some of our best and most fun experiences have been with people that we're not 'friends' with, but were sexual with. A large number of those that we developed further friendships with have ended up causing issues.

 

See, we've always thought that the whole openness of swinging, and really the whole mindset of people that do it, are enjoyable to be around. So we thought (perhaps erroneously) that we could incorporate these people into our everyday lives.

 

We hold so many secrets, and it was good to be able to have some people whom we didn't keep our 'hobby' as we refer to it a secret from.

 

You can't be friends with everyone, inside or outside of the lifestyle. Friendship requires time, effort, and resources. Be careful about who you give those things to.

 

Those who are nice can be easy targets for the unstable and the aggressive.

 

If there were some other hobby that you really enjoyed would you try to make friends with EVERYONE you met who also enjoyed that hobby? I don't think so. Just like in vanilla life you have to be picky about who you choose to be friends with.

 

We are open to making friends in the lifestyle, but that is not our goal. Friendships take time to develop and honestly we don't have a lot of time to devote to a lot of people outside of actually swinging. We do have couples who swing (and in some cases that we swing with) that we definatley consider friends. People who we can hang out with in vanilla atmosphere, or even go on vacation with and feel completely comfortable. But, these people are RARE.

 

Your overall goal of a social network and introducing those you may not sexually click with to others who they might click with is a very noble one. And something that we also try to do. However, if we don't sexually click with a couple chances are we aren't going to spend much time with them, if any, unless it's in a large group of swingers. And even then, we still have to feel ok with them as people. If there are issues about them that put us off then we attempt to avoid them altogether. If those issues include swinging (as in this couple should not be swinging) then we certainly don't want to keep them around and introduce them to our other swinging friends. That just breeds drama.

 

I don't think you have to completely cut off from trying to make friends in the lifesytle, nor do I think you have to go to the extent of saying you NEVER spend time with lifestyle friends outside of lifestyle activities. However, just like picking vanilla friends you do have to be PICKY about who you choose to use your precious time and energy on.

[iapr 24]

I haven't read all the other posts but I will assume they are spot-on and are more comprehensive than what I am about to say. I'll just make a couple conceptual points and you can interpret and apply them however you want.

 

- The more you ask for and expect of people, the more they are going to disappoint you and the more frustrated you will be.

 

- Casual, consensual and responsible recreational sex never hurt anyone. It's relationships and the pursuit of relationships that lead to issues such as drama, hurt feelings, jealousy/envy and finding out that many people really are assholes when you peel back the layers.

 

I'm not meaning to burst your bubble or say that trying to be involved with people is wrong but you will encounter what you have already experienced. You will hit it off with some people and many others will disappoint and frustrate you and leave you scratching your heads.

[theboy 175]

In the case of the last couple, to hell with them. This is a case of "these are our rules, and we play within them." If they can't get that through their thick heads, then it's their problem, not yours. An e-mail letting them know that "in light of recent revelations concerning their true personalities, you've decided that you're not as compatible as you once thought, and that no further contact is needed or desired" might just be in order here. Then move on. If they reply to you, delete it unread and move on. Drop them from your friends list on your messaging program, and don't chat with them any more - block them if you have to. You don't need the head games these people are playing - look at how upset it has made both of you.

 

While this is what I'd prefer to do in this situation, they're as I said getting to be friends with the other people we also know. We don't want to put anyone in the middle or make them feel like they have to choose or whatever. Perhaps that's a wrong way to think...

 

Think of it this way - they tried to manipulate you and your wife into doing something you didn't/don't want to do. Does that sound like a friend?

 

Absolutely not. Perhaps in this situation a slow backing away would be the best bet? I'm not going to, ya know, hang out with them. But we also don't want it to be awkward if we both end up in the same place at the same time too, no?

 

I wouldn't get too cynical - especially this early in the game. There are a lot of good people out there, and maybe you've just had bad luck so far. It happens. Sometimes you do have to wade through a lot of toads before you find the right people, and maybe you just haven't found them yet. I would be a little more careful about letting people get so close so quickly, however. Some people aren't so decent, as you have seen, and will take advantage if they see an opening. It's sad that we have to think that way, but reality is just not what we wish it was sometimes. Still, as you meet more people, you'll discover that there are a lot of nice, decent couples in the lifestyle, and in fact, that they're in the majority.

 

Thanks for this. It's kinda easy for me to be cynical given our experiences. I dunno, maybe it's a regional thing? Anyway.. we've met some really good ones too, but I think we need to place less emphasis on being friendly, for sure.

[theboy 175]

As for your method of swinging...didn't you get the handbook with the three correct methods clearly described and illustrated with line drawings? Seriously, don't let anyone tell you that you aren't doing it 'correctly'.

 

Didn't it have something to do with swingy the swing??

 

As for the level of drama or number of marriages breaking up, remember that many marriages end in divorce without swinging, so it might not be the swinging. Or it might be that people are getting into swinging as a last ditch effort to save a marriage (which is about as effective as having a baby for that reason).

 

Yeah, I'm wondering if it might be confirmation bias, a little. I'm looking for peoples problems now having seen so much and finding them, obviously.

 

And finally, your actual question! For me (and I think I speak for Mr. Ivory too) is that swinging actually isn't a lifestyle. It's a hobby. That is, it's a thing we do for fun, to enhance our lives, but not a central defining characteristic.

 

We've often made this exact statement.

 

We should follow in your footsteps perhaps, with the rest of what you typed.

 

I think the problem we all run into is that this seems so much like dating we think there's something wrong if we don't go the next step and establish a relationship. Not true!

 

This also ... perhaps turned on a light above my head! This seems wise.

[theboy 175]

If there were some other hobby that you really enjoyed would you try to make friends with EVERYONE you met who also enjoyed that hobby? I don't think so. Just like in vanilla life you have to be picky about who you choose to be friends with.

 

No, you're absolutely right. I find it hard to draw the line though I guess. Or we have in the past, anyway.

 

People who we can hang out with in vanilla atmosphere, or even go on vacation with and feel completely comfortable. But, these people are RARE.

 

We're at 1 for god knows how many we've talked to/interfaced with/had sex with since we started.

 

Your overall goal of a social network and introducing those you may not sexually click with to others who they might click with is a very noble one. And something that we also try to do. However, if we don't sexually click with a couple chances are we aren't going to spend much time with them, if any, unless it's in a large group of swingers.

 

It's another degree of separation, in between the not-outside-friends at all and what we've been trying to do, apparently.

 

I don't think you have to completely cut off from trying to make friends in the lifesytle, nor do I think you have to go to the extent of saying you NEVER spend time with lifestyle friends outside of lifestyle activities. However, just like picking vanilla friends you do have to be PICKY about who you choose to use your precious time and energy on.

 

The thing is, we thought we were this last time. Stable marriage... previous experience in swinging.. professional couple... similar (we thought) mindset... then the mask fell off...

 

Thank you all for your help. It's been something I've been pondering these past few days and this has helped me think of other options or ideas...

[theboy 175]

- Casual, consensual and responsible recreational sex never hurt anyone. It's relationships and the pursuit of relationships that lead to issues such as drama, hurt feelings, jealousy/envy and finding out that many people really are assholes when you peel back the layers.

 

This. Very insightful.

 

I'm not meaning to burst your bubble or say that trying to be involved with people is wrong but you will encounter what you have already experienced. You will hit it off with some people and many others will disappoint and frustrate you and leave you scratching your heads.

 

These issues (specifically #2 couple for me) have really made me not want to continue for a while. The highs are SO high though, when all is going well.

[MrkLin 393]

While this is what I'd prefer to do in this situation, they're as I said getting to be friends with the other people we also know. We don't want to put anyone in the middle or make them feel like they have to choose or whatever. Perhaps that's a wrong way to think...

 

You won't be putting anyone in the middle of anything they don't want to get in the middle of. We know a lot of couples, and frankly, some of them don't really like each other. That's not our problem. Now, we don't intentionally put them into situations where there might be a catfight or something similar, but we do invite them all to our house for a party. They usually all come. They're civil to each other, they have fun together - they don't play together, but that's their business. Again - you're worrying about others when it isn't warranted. Let them get to be friends with those other people - then when they tell your friends that they're swinging the wrong way, they'll see for themselves.

 

Absolutely not. Perhaps in this situation a slow backing away would be the best bet? I'm not going to, ya know, hang out with them. But we also don't want it to be awkward if we both end up in the same place at the same time too, no?

 

So if you turn up in the same place, let them feel awkward. Don't sweat it. I'm sure you work with people you really don't care for. If you run into one of them at a party, do you leave in disgust? Hide in a closet? Search out the nearest Denny's and have breakfast? I doubt it. This is no different. If you bump into them at a club or party, be civil to them, and then go have a good time. Again - don't sweat it.

 

Thanks for this. It's kinda easy for me to be cynical given our experiences. I dunno, maybe it's a regional thing? Anyway.. we've met some really good ones too, but I think we need to place less emphasis on being friendly, for sure.

 

You can be friendly, just be wary of letting people get too close too fast. I know I come off like a cold hearted bastard when I say we don't associate with our lifestyle friends outside of lifestyle situations, but it's situations like the one you find yourself in now that made us think that way. I got tired of being Father Confessor, and Lin got tired of being thought of as a good lay, but other than that, "Hush girl - grown-ups are talkin'..." Well, bullshit. You two got into the lifestyle for a reason - I'm willing to bet that reason had nothing to do with drama, head games, political bullshit, or worrying about who is going to show up where.

 

Ok, you met a few duds - everyone posting on this board has done it too. It's time to get back on track and remember why you two got into swinging in the first place, and forget about the duds you've met. That's behind you - live and learn, you know? If this latest couple tries to make trouble for you, put it right back on them. Certify the profile of the friends you're worried about them getting too close to. Let them know what this couple tried to do to you - as a fair warning, not spreading drama. Go to parties, go to clubs, and, most of all, have fun. You two don't owe anybody anything, so don't feel like you're obligated to anyone. If you bump into them someplace, big fat hairy deal - let them deal with you, rather than you getting all timid and dealing with them. What I mean is, have a good time - no matter who's there or whether or not they're watching.

[theboy 175]

While this is what I'd prefer to do in this situation, they're as I said getting to be friends with the other people we also know. We don't want to put anyone in the middle or make them feel like they have to choose or whatever. Perhaps that's a wrong way to think...

 

You won't be putting anyone in the middle of anything they don't want to get in the middle of. We know a lot of couples, and frankly, some of them don't really like each other. That's not our problem. Now, we don't intentionally put them into situations where there might be a catfight or something similar, but we do invite them all to our house for a party. They usually all come. They're civil to each other, they have fun together - they don't play together, but that's their business. Again - you're worrying about others when it isn't warranted. Let them get to be friends with those other people - then when they tell your friends that they're swinging the wrong way, they'll see for themselves.

 

Well, it's been a long interesting few months since the last time I visited this thread. I figured that I'd update the thread with the exciting conclusion to the story.

 

As I said above - this last couple we had issues with knew our friends, those that we formed what we had felt was a more meaningful relationship with.

 

Anyway, from the moment that we had issues with this other couple, our previously close friends drifted away. They stopped talking to us, basically, and would frequently cancel on plans with us. We had previously done things with our kids with them as well, since they were friends to our kids as well. They started going to events and such with the other couple, which was fine.

 

Canceled plans kept on happening. It got to a point where we expected them to cancel on us rather than the alternative.

 

It all came to a climax recently, after another cancellation. I had again told the kids that we'd be doing something with them, and had to deal with them again being sad and angry that they couldn't see these people who they thought were their friends.

 

I made a comment on facebook later that I probably shouldn't have. I mentioned that we were having pizza for dinner, like I had thought we would likely have. Yeah, I know. I made a mistake, but I was genuinely frustrated and didn't enjoy dealing with the repeated cancels.

 

So the male half calls my wife and screams at her in the car on her way home from work following this, bringing her to tears. She came in the house completely upset, more than I've seen her in a long time. He spent much of the time calling her things like an 'attention whore' (for not agreeing with the male half of the other couple, I'd guess).

 

He messages me just before she walked in, presumably to yell at me. After I calm her down, I get on the chat where he proceeds to berate me. He calls me a bad parent. He uses the knowledge that he has of our intimate details to try his hardest to hurt me. I apologize for the comment on facebook, but mention that I really felt that things had changed between us. I didn't apologize in the way he wanted, apparently.

 

The next morning I wake up to more comments on my yahoo messenger. I tell him that these feelings just aren't mine, but those of both of us and our kids. We all had felt them pulling away. He tells me I'm a liar, that I made it all up, and then says he will still be my wife's friend but not mine. He tells me that my wife deserves better than me. I block him, being done with the whole thing.

 

He calls her again, and leaves a voicemail. Basically he says that if she agrees with him to call him back, otherwise no call is needed since he won't be our friend any longer. She doesn't call him back.

 

The other night he messages her for 'closure'. He proceeds to continue to blame me for the entire thing. He doesn't really care what the effects of his actions are, basically. I am, for what it's worth, the enemy. It's the same impression I had since the beginning of the troubles with the other couple - it was obvious and apparent that they took sides, and not with us.

 

The clincher? We have been, for the past months, been trying to get pregnant. A thyroid issue had stopped us, but once that was fixed we were off to the races. We're expecting in November. Our previously close friends have also been trying to get pregnant but have not been able to. They've been trying for a lot longer than us, and the prognosis looks very bad. It was nearly immediately after we told them of our good fortune that the blow up occurred.

 

Today we received our assorted things in the mail from them, things we had given or left over at both the couples houses, sent in one box.

 

Why did I write all this? Catharsis, mostly. At this point I'm fairly done with having close swinger friends. The non-swinger friends have been much less volatile. We've already taken a break from swinging because of the baby - this ensures that we won't miss it much during this time. We need to concentrate on each other.

 

I've never had much problems with friends in the past. I don't know why it's so different for swinger people, but it seems to be.

[JustMrJ 178]

I am sorry to hear that this has happened... So far we have not had any troubles like this. Then again, I don't think we've found a couple to get that close to.

 

Good luck, congratulations about the baby! *HUGS*

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

MAJOR congrats on the baby! Woohoo!!! (and glad you worked out the thyroid problem!)

 

As to the overall friends issue...wew. That's rough. Sounds like you found far more than your share of weird eggs. Maybe it's the Michigan air In some seriousness on that, I read the headline of an article that child abuse is up dramatically with the economic downturn. I know Michigan has taken it very hard. People in general are feeling a lot less upbeat. Relation? Dunno. Just something to think about.

 

At the first ever meet and greet we had, plans changed suddenly at the last moment (other couple couldn't make it). We offered the following day, with the caveat that our kids would have to be with us. They were fine with that; kids of their own, and near our kid's ages. We figured if we all became friends, everything would be great...kids have fun with each other, and the adults have adult fun with each other. It didn't work out, and we never saw them again.

 

But, on the way home from that meet and greet, with the kids fast asleep in the back of the car, my wife and I discussed this and decided that we would never again involve our kids in any friendship of ours that involved swinging. We've held fast to that rule since then, and our kids have no connection to any swinging partners we've had since.

 

Being friends with a swing partner isn't important to us. We're happy to have sex with them if we like them and are attracted to them. We don't require being friends. If that happens, it happens, but it's not something we connect to swinging.

 

Since we have somewhat limited time to go on play dates, we try to optimize those times to be involved in meeting people we're going to play with, or have a chance to play with. As a result, we don't do many dates with couples we have decided not to play with, but like anyways. That kinda puts the brakes on being friends. Oh well. At least the sex is good

[lookingfornow 116]

I am sorry for your experience. Can't be certain what went wrong for sure. Overall, we have never had an experience anything like what you are describing. I would chalk it up to experience and move on without looking back.

[curious_2for2 92]

Wow, what an ordeal you relate. I couldn't imagine having someone text, call and otherwise try to get me to change my rules through intimidation, coercion, and outright name-calling. You are entitled to a life free of this kind of drama, regardless of your hobbies. To us it's just unfathomable.

 

It's been our wish to make friends in the LS, yet we've not found that level of compatibility also. Yes, we've met some very nice folks, but few that we'd really care to get intimate with. We reconcile this with the thought that it's our life, our time to spend as we see fit, and first and foremost, we are the first people to take care of, because without each other, we'd be heading for Divorce court.

 

Congrats on the baby, that's so special. Best of luck finding the right mix of personality that you're looking for, and remember, true friends rise to the top without prompting, and if they walk away from you over something silly, they weren't meant to be your friends.

 

~C2