More successful by pretending to cheat?

[iapr 24]

Ok for starters I need to be upfront in that I am not a poly and we do not swing or play alone at all and neither one of us has ever had any intentions or aspirations of finding a girlfriend or boyfriend on the side. But another thread got me thinking about this question.

 

For the guys that are looking for a girlfriend on the side with permission from their wife, do you think some of them would be more successful at finding that FWB or GF if they lied about having permission and were pretending to cheat?

 

I mean this seems really ironic in that as swingers we claim to value honesty and openness and look at cheating and adultery with disdain but as was pointed out by Julie on another thread, a lot of people just can't handle the truth. Some actually want to believe that they are cheating and that they are "the other woman." Once some learn the truth that they have permission and it is all right the relationship ends. In other words they would rather be with an adulterer having an affair than be a FWB or GF with someone playing with permission.

 

While we try to claim it is all sanctioned and authorized, most of the general public has an easier time accepting adultery.

 

For women it's easy to get FWBs on the side but for guys a lot of women run if a guy tries to explain his wife is ok with it. While I can not condone dishonesty or deceit, is the reality of the situation that a guy would be more successful at finding a FWB if he were to lie about his permission status and pretend to be a cheater??

 

That flies in the face of all that I believe in as traditional, play-together swinger but I can see how it may be a reality in the world.

 

What are your thoughts on this? Are there times you are more successful if you are a lamb in a wolf's clothing?

[Chicup 42]

What are your thoughts on this? Are their times you are more successful if you are a lamb in a wolf's clothing?

 

I don't have any personal experience with this but I could see why it works that way.

 

Having a man cheat with you makes the female feel powerful, she's desirable and shes better than the wife. He's willing to risk divorce and drama to be with her.

 

If she knows it is with the wife's permission then she's just doing a job the wife doesn't always want to, she's just a fuck buddy without the forbidden fruit aspect.

[iapr 24]

I don't have any personal experience with this but I could see why it works that way.

 

Having a man cheat with you makes the female feel powerful, she's desirable and shes better than the wife. He's willing to risk divorce and drama to be with her.

 

If she knows it is with the wife's permission then she's just doing a job the wife doesn't always want to, she's just a fuck buddy without the forbidden fruit aspect.

 

I was thinking along those lines as well, although I was also thinking that if a gal thinks he is having an affair she is also able to think that he is ultimately going to leave his wife and be with her.

 

If he comes out and says he and his wife have a happy marriage and that the wife approves and condones it, that probably means that he is never going to leave and that she truly is just a fuck buddy and always will be.

[fun4Ds 1,098]

"What an evil web we weave, when first we try to deceive"

 

We have never felt the desperation to play with someone who gets a kick/thrill out of cheating.

[rpu3 630]

For the guys that are looking for a girlfriend on the side with permission from their wife, do you think some of them would be more successful at finding that FWB or GF if they lied about having permission and were pretending to cheat?

 

Yes, on behalf of the Spousal Unit.

 

I've said in plenty of threads in the Poly or Open forums that my spouse would be far more successful if he said he was just looking to cheat. He's had enough offers, but the "okay with cheating" women are out of here once he tells them he's married and doesn't need to cheat because of our arrangement. Seems easier for some to wrap their heads around cheating than around an open marriage with a spouse that's going to want to meet you first. Or else they are hoping to cowboy him out of the marriage.

 

What are your thoughts on this? Are there times you are more successful if you are a lamb in a wolf's clothing?

 

The Spousal Unit doesn't lie about his marital status, so actual numbers as to success through lying are not available.

[MrkLin 393]

... although I was also thinking that if a gal thinks he is having an affair she is also able to think that he is ultimately going to leave his wife and be with her.

 

If he comes out and says he and his wife have a happy marriage and that the wife approves and condones it, that probably means that he is never going to leave and that she truly is just a fuck buddy and always will be.

 

I think that may be the case. If she stands no chance of ever getting him to herself, it becomes a case of; "What's in this for me in the long run?" I've never understood this mentality. Think about it - if he was so willing to cheat on his wife to be with you, what makes you think he won't cheat on you to be with someone else? What makes you special? Oh well - enough digression...

 

Anecdotally, we were on the receiving end of this equation a few years ago, but with a single male acquaintance. He was more than ready jump Lin's bones (even had a motel in mind) until she told him that we had no secrets, I knew all about it, and it was ok with me. He immediately backpedaled and told her to forget the whole thing. When she pressed him for an answer as to why not, he told her that swinging was weird. I told her that he was just an Adam-Henry (the right people will get that - if you don't, ask a cop.) He was more than ready to help my wife cheat on me when he thought I didn't know, but it was weird if I did know. So who was really the weird one?

 

She did forget the whole thing, and it's funny, but we haven't seen him since...

[Trace Ekies 186]

Maybe, just maybe this explains why, when asked, two, not just one single males told us the truth about their marital status. They think that if we believe there's no chance of strings we'll be more receptive? Interesting. Do you suppose that in single male circles they discuss how swingers prefer to think that they are cheating?

 

Chicup's point is well made. An opportunity to taste the forbidden fruit with the added bonus of feeling more desirable than her competition at his house. A bit scary but probably more true than I want to recognize.

[IvoryTowers 380]

Everything everyone has said here seems absolutely true and I just want to comment on how incredibly sad that it.

 

Most people would rather be involved in cheating and the possible breakup of a marriage or LTR than wrap their heads around swinging/poly.

[creamylips 16]

While we try to claim it is all sanctioned and authorized, most of the general public has an easier time accepting adultery.

 

You are so right when you state that the the general public has an easier time accepting adultery versus swinging or an open marriage. Totally screwed up and ironic- but it is the truth.

[arvcpl 16]

Wow, what a shocker! Guys lying to chicks to get in their pants??? Who would have ever thought of such a thing???? Yeah that is some cutting edge material you have there.

 

C'mon are you serious? Guys have been lying about their relationship status' and intentions for a piece of ass since the beginning of time. This is no news flash. All it is is just twisting the words around a little bit to fit a different niche.

 

If a guy wants some side action and doesn't want his wife to find out he tells his potential side action mark that his marriage is crumbling and that he wished he had found her before he met his wife and that she has all the qualities and assets that his wife doesn't and as soon as he can take care of all the details with the kids and the paperwork he will leave his wife and they will start their new lives together.

 

As chicup pointed out, they often fall for it hook line and sinker because it is what they want to believe.

 

the only different with this scenario with an open marriage couple is the wife and husband have an agreement that it is ok, but the concept is still the same. The "other woman" will be interested and enticed because she thinks she will end up with the fairy tail .

 

If a guy comes out says his wife is ok with it and knows all about it the other woman realizes no red blooded American male is ever going to leave a woman that lets him fuck around and she will realize that she is just sperm depository to dump his extra leftover load into. No chance of ending with the fairy tail dream = no poontang.

 

So yeah, just like every Jr high boy that learned to tear off a piece of ass at 14 by letting the girl think that he was in love with her and that they would end up together, so too it works for the 35 year old man with a happy wife and marriage at home.

 

Some things are universal and timeless and men preying on the instinctual aspirations of women for a piece of ass is one of them. This is just a slightly different twist for a small unique population segment. It may be sad and pathetic and wrong but it is true nonetheless.

[Nitati 28]

Anecdotally, we were on the receiving end of this equation a few years ago, but with a single male acquaintance. He was more than ready jump Lin's bones (even had a motel in mind) until she told him that we had no secrets, I knew all about it, and it was ok with me. He immediately backpedaled and told her to forget the whole thing. When she pressed him for an answer as to why not, he told her that swinging was weird. I told her that he was just an Adam-Henry (the right people will get that - if you don't, ask a cop.) He was more than ready to help my wife cheat on me when he thought I didn't know, but it was weird if I did know. So who was really the weird one?

 

She did forget the whole thing, and it's funny, but we haven't seen him since...

 

This has happened to us a couple times now. The guy thinks I'm cheating, everything is great! The minute I say "actually... we have no secrets & the hubby would love to talk to you about having a straight, mfm 3some with us" they run. Quickly. Explaining that, for various reasons, they don't think they'd be able to actually "do it". And of course, the only thing left behind is a vapor trail LOL. Add to that the fact that most guys we've come across on Swing Lifestyle *are* cheaters (or lie about even the small things), and we are just dumbfounded and not quite sure if we'll ever find who we're looking for.

[Nitati 28]

Oh on a side note (kinda off topic, but kinda not)... recently it was said by a single male acquaintance, "If you were my wife, I wouldn't be able to keep my hands off you!" to which I replied, "What makes you think my husband's able to? We fuck like bunnies and we love it!!!"

 

I think his implication was that we are seeking a male 3rd because I'm not satisfied at home? When of course, it's quite the opposite! Daddy keeps *this* mamma VERY happy lol! But as members of this board, I'm sure you're all probably very familiar with how that works

[CXXC 435]

I think the matter is actually quite simple. People are program to forgive and forget. They are rarely taught to reason and accept "out-of-the-box" Ideas.

 

It is easier for the man/woman to accept the cheating and forgive the individuals (Never really forgetting the affair) than it is to accept the thought that the individuals have consensual sex with others outside of their marriage bed.

 

If I have an affair, it is only reasonable that I will be forgiven by Mrs. CXXC or divorced. Either way, the out come is easily rationalized and the thought process is not too difficult.

 

If I go out to a club, have sex with several ladies (Perhaps Mrs. CXXC joins me in the lady play) return to my home with Mrs. CXXC, what is it that we should "Logically" be doing after?

 

To the vanilla society, we should be fighting. We should be yelling and screaming as jealousy should have taken hold of us. BUT NO! We are back in bed having HOT Monkey Sex. They cant wrap their heads around it.

 

That is my take on it. I could be wrong.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

C'mon are you serious? Guys have been lying about their relationship status' and intentions for a piece of ass since the beginning of time. This is no news flash.

You could extend that to say people in general often misrepresent themselves and pretend to be what they aren't in order to achieve their agenda. IE: It ain't just a man and poontang thang.

 

As to the OP's question, I would concur that yes, men playing the role of a cheating man would have more success. We've got plenty of anecdotal stories to support this, and the general public's lack of reason and understanding lead to this conclusion as well.

 

Can't say I condone it, just that I understand why it is that way.

[iapr 24]

I think the matter is actually quite simple. People are program to forgive and forget. They are rarely taught to reason and accept "out-of-the-box" Ideas.

 

It is easier for the man/woman to accept the cheating and forgive the individuals (Never really forgetting the affair) than it is to accept the thought that the individuals have consensual sex with others outside of their marriage bed.

 

If I have an affair, it is only reasonable that I will be forgiven by Mrs. CXXC or divorced. Either way, the out come is easily rationalized and the thought process is not too difficult.

 

If I go out to a club, have sex with several ladies (Perhaps Mrs. CXXC joins me in the lady play) return to my home with Mrs. CXXC, what is it that we should "Logically" be doing after?

 

To the vanilla society, we should be fighting. We should be yelling and screaming as jealousy should have taken hold of us. BUT NO! We are back in bed having HOT Monkey Sex. They cant wrap their heads around it.

 

That is my take on it. I could be wrong.

 

No, I'd say you were spot-on

[Additude 457]

Speaking purely in generalities, I think in general society as we know it not accustomed to "swinger etiquette", it's difficult, especially for the female gender to separate sex and love; separate the heart from the mind; or to comprehend the term "recreational sex".

 

So I have to agree that it would be more productive or beneficial for the male component to keep the "sex with permission" issue silent, which essentially is a "borrowed male". However, not telling is deception and coercion for the gain of sexual satisfaction. If the female is not aware of the males’ status, then the male is using the female sexually.

 

I think the greater percentage of the female gender in regular society (I'd guess 90% +, give or take), even knowing or not knowing she is having sex with a married man, still thinks, if even unconsciously (98% of thought is unconscious), that there is a chance at a "long term relationship". The lower percentage (other 10%, give or take), are experiencing a physical or emotional sexual infatuation with the male. I think most women in the 90% category want that man, emotionally for themselves, monogamously because separation of the heart and mind do not come easily.

 

When the female finds out that another woman (the males wife) is allowing her to "borrow" the man sexually, then for the greater percentage of those women contributing to the "affair", there is a confusing, practical realization that it's virtually impossible for her to maintain any form of a monogamous relationship with that male. Her options immediately become "Friends/Sexual Relationship" or "No Relationship".

 

Of course once the females mind has been re-conditioned thru the experience of swinging, then the mind is more able to disassociate the "heart/mind" and the greater percentage / lower percentage gap decreases depending on other factors, like the females marriage status, etc.

[IvoryTowers 380]

So several people in this thread have pointed out that women will back away from a man with permission because they realize he can never be theirs, that they're just a fuck buddy, etc.

 

But other people have related anecdotes of single males fleeing as fast from a married woman. Stereotypes of male behavior should have those single guys jumping around like they just won the lottery--commitment free sex!

 

So why are some single guys also freaked out by the idea of a married woman with permission?

[Additude 457]

I don't think anyone is saying that there is not a relationship that also exists in males that can be comparable to females, only that the examples provided were in line with the OP's question.

 

It's already a speculative question/answer, however appending further conditions to an answer (conditions which are true and do exist, only in smaller percentages) may only lend to complicate any responses.

 

I almost want to say that I feel the male sex for recreation thought process is about equally opposite to the females sex for love thought process, which would also make the males sex for love thought process equally opposite to the females sex for recreation thought process.

 

In nature, I think those opposites tend to hover around the 90/10 comparison. That's just my best guess based on my experience.

[Chicup 42]

So why are some single guys also freaked out by the idea of a married woman with permission?

 

I had to think about this one.

 

If I were a single male, at say a bar at a hotel and a attractive woman on business hit on me, told me to come up to her room and that her husband knows she does this kind of thing, I'd go. This isn't swinger chicup but the guy I was as a single.

 

Now take that same situation and she says 'my husband is upstairs, he wants to watch' and I've had run for the hills.

 

Once the husband is involved that primal fear of getting caught doing something that normally gets your ass kicked sets in. Even though you have permission you get the weirded out feeling, somethings not right, whats going to happen, is he going to come on to me, etc.

 

Its wondering what HE is getting out of it, and not understanding.

[slevin 1,374]

I think there is a lot of ego involved in it for some guys. Many single guys seem to be seeking married women who are cheating and I think it has to do with them getting an ego boost out of the woman fucking them on the side. Presuming that she is fucking them because they are better than her husband. There is no ego boost involved if the husband knows and is cool with it. That doesn't account for everyone, but I think it's a very common reason.

[CXXC 435]

I thought about this topic for a while now. Since my last post, I think there is another end of the spectrum that I missed.

 

What is in it for the woman? I have two associates that have been cheating on their wife/GF. One is now getting divorced. That one was no surprise. The other one just got engaged! CRAZY, I know!

 

However, in both situations, the women having the relationship with the cheating men, had less to lose than the cheaters. These women, I believe, were after something that they could not have within their own marriages. Yes, both women are married.

 

I think that one thing has to be taken into account for the pretend cheater. What is the perception of loss/gain in the other person’s eyes. Perhaps that is also a weight with which they judge the possible activity!

 

Who knows? It could be as simple as the thrill of being caught! I’m not sure. This may deserve further study!

[maniaco333 29]

Here is what happened to me:

 

I'm the male half of a happily married couple, we play together and also have the freedom of playing separate.

 

I got a FWB who I've playing with on and off for over a year I was upfront with my marital arrangement and she was cool with it although a bit skeptical at first until she met my wife and saw for herself.

 

She was fascinated by the idea that my wife was cool with it and one day she tells me about this coworker of hers that really had the hots for me and I really liked her to we flirted for some time and exchanged a few phone calls.

 

She told me that she wanted to go out and spend a night with me. I agreed and explained that my wife was aware of what was happening, that she would always know, and she said that that was creepy and did not go through.

 

So go figure which one works best!!

 

I'm sticking with honesty. If it does not work out at least I don't feel bad about lying.

[mixtupcpl 169]

I think there is a lot of ego involved in it for some guys. Many single guys seem to be seeking married women who are cheating and I think it has to do with them getting an ego boost out of the woman fucking them on the side. Presuming that she is fucking them because they are better than her husband. There is no ego boost involved if the husband knows and is cool with it. That doesn't account for everyone, but I think it's a very common reason.

 

100% spot on... We've seen this first hand. We also had a case where one guy was "let in" on our arrangement after the fact and he was OK/intrigued by it (which I had predicted he would be). As a guy you can typically tell on which side of the equation another guy will fall if you've had the chance to meet them a time or two.

 

As for women, I've found its definitely way easier if they think you're cheating (esp these days), but there is always definitely an expectation that they are going to pull you away (especially if you are fairly well off). With ONE exception. That being if they're married also. But then that puts you in a weird spot. You're pretending to be cheating (thus lying), but they're ACTUALLY cheating (thus lying, but a more hurtful lie)

 

Stuff like this is what ultimately burnt us out on the open arrangement (at least for now).

[Meetussoon 68]

I struggle with this issue because when I am interested in hooking up with someone I knew from the past (like one or both of the two HS friends who live in Chicago) I don't want to be known as a cheat. So I struggle with that issue. They know I'm a flirt and that is ok, but if it goes to another level, they perceive that I am stepping out on Marie. If they were to ask about my marriage I think I might be honest, but, I don't know. Part of that decision is what Marie wants them to know, because they both know friends we have back home. I thought perhaps I would tell them Marie is bi, which is true, and that because she has a GF on occasion, our agreement is I likewise can have a fling. We have had the instance where after the fact -- when the other lady was feeling guilty, Marie called her and explained that it was ok. But this was a very unique situation.

 

OF course the simple answer to the question is, don't try and fuck old friends or GF, and only look for fuck buddies within the lifestyle.

[BigNikki 44]

When my John is on the separate prowl, he reads his target and if he thinks they would be more excited, he lets them think he's cheating. (Of course when he tells the girls that he has a hall pass, they may not believe him. And I'm not going to stand by the phone to confirm a hall pass; usually I'm working my butt off on a late night assignment and wouldn't tolerate the interruption.)

 

When he's with guys, there's no gamesmanship. Guys believe a husband is on the down-low.

 

Myself, when I'm on the prowl, I don't bother with that stuff.

[Big Rock 173]

Having been cheated on, and realizing how odious real cheating is, I would be pissed if somebody tried to "pretend" to be a cheater. I'm an upfront guy and I prefer upfront women, married or single.

[BigNikki 44]

Having been cheated on . . .

 

Indeed. I apologize for treading on your toes, and others'. What is an amusing play kink for some, is real pain and destruction for others.

[BigNikki 44]

This whole topic is bizarre to contemplate. Being cheated on is a source of so much pain and grief for so many. And yet here we are discussing the idea of cheating as being a fun turn-on. The lure of "forbidden fruit".

 

I don't expect anyone else to be this way / feel this way, but to John and I our loyalty to each other is that we live with each other, we love each other, we're intimate with each other. We are emotionally faithful to each other, and sex has nothing to do with it.

 

That lets us do all the things we do, including swinging together, swinging apart, and also being on the prowl (which, as near as I can tell, isn't at all within the value system of this board).

 

I have a close friendship with the wife living next door. It's a friendship that has segued into friends-with-benefits -- we have sex. But to her, in her naivete, she isn't cheating and it isn't lesbianism; it's just a very close girl-type friendship.

 

The twists and turns of sexuality are a wonder to behold.

[BigNikki 44]

. . . this coworker really had the hots for me . . . I explained that my wife was aware of what was happening . . . and she said that that was creepy.

 

Boy, there is so much psychological truth in that experience. Slip sliding around -- cheating -- was something she understood and accepted. But a hall pass was beyond her kin.

 

There is so much difference between us and conventional folks.

[Big Rock 173]

I take no offense from your words, Nikki. I was just pointing out the value of honesty. What if one person is " pretending" but the other one isn't? Pretending to be a cheater, isn't the same as roleplaying. In roleplaying everybody is on the same page. Pretending to be a cheater involves deception, and deception is never a positive thing.

 

To elaborate, I knew an Asian/American girl in college, who looked considerably younger than 18. She used to make a game of dressing like a school girl and finding men who wanted the "forbidden fruit" of an underaged girl. She used to laugh and tell me about how much money/presents they would give her whether she slept with them or not. One man wasn't playing though and he raped her and held her prisoner for 4 or 5 days. I'm all for roleplaying but deception will almost always bite you in the ass, at some point.

[MN Tom 251]

I think there is a lot of ego involved in it for some guys. Many single guys seem to be seeking married women who are cheating and I think it has to do with them getting an ego boost out of the woman fucking them on the side. Presuming that she is fucking them because they are better than her husband. There is no ego boost involved if the husband knows and is cool with it. That doesn't account for everyone, but I think it's a very common reason.

 

We've seen this firsthand. Wife picks up a vanilla at a bar, guy is all hot to trot, once he hears that I know about it, he loses his edge.

[Jake1178 19]

For the man, it's the conquering of another man's wife. For the woman, he's cheating for her. For both it's the excitement of the danger the affair brings and adds to it making for some intense sex.

 

When my wife plays, she likes to tell them she's a married woman that needs more, that she needs sexual satisfaction. For the cheating woman it can be fun too, just the thrill of taking another man is very empowering and exciting. The knowing that the man she is with is taking the chance of a jealous husband blowing his brains out is doing it for her. Makes her feel very desirable.

 

My wife loves to start her playing and then tell me afterwards. "Honey, I'm having an affair!" She loves to do that. Sometimes she waits until she's had sex a few times with the guy before telling me. She said it's the excitement of possibly getting caught. I've caught her twice, once with a hicky on her neck, the other time when she had what turned out to be semen on her panties and we hadn't had sex that week. She would then tell her lover that I found out, and every time, the guy would continue to have sex with her anytime he could. If I ask her, she will tell me, but I don't ask, I know she loves her little game.