Is it fair? Watching to make sure SO doesn't violate rules/boundaries

[ArianaAR 15]

To start off, let me say that I am new to swinging. My boyfriend brought it up, and after being reluctant at first, eventually I decided I was interested in seeing what it is all about. So far, we have had 2 experiences playing with 2 different couples. Both couples have been great, and I've enjoyed what has happened between us. However, I'm still figuring out what I'm comfortable with and really have a need to ease into everything. As a result, we have only done soft swap. My boyfriend is a little frustrated as he is hoping for full swap. I got a little upset during our second encounter because I had to actually physically stop him from penetrating the other female. He is fully aware that I'm not ready for full swap, but he claims that in the moment, he is just like an animal and can't control it. Is it fair that I have to watch him like a hawk so that he won't cross the boundaries we've discussed? Shouldn't he respect me enough to control himself until I am more comfortable?

[PB&J 1,086]

You two need to not play again at any level of involvement until he can learn to respect your boundaries and abide by them. If he can't (hell, let's be honest, WON'T) control himself, slam on the brakes.

[ArianaAR 15]

What frustrates me is that my boyfriend acts like nobody is interested in soft couples. He thinks that I'll never be up for it, and that if that's the case, there's no point in doing anything on any level. I just want him to be patient and let me figure things out. I think the other couple we met is more understanding and relaxed about how I feel than he is.

[PB&J 1,086]

While not everyone in the lifestyle will play with soft swap couples, they aren't the outcasts your boyfriend wants you to think that they are. And if he really is lifestyle-experienced, he knows that. That is obviously his excuse for trying to push you too fast for your comfort. Sounds like he's the one not interested in soft swap. If you have to actually physically restrain him from full swap, what's happening isn't fair to you or the couples you're playing with. Even if they are comfortable with full swap, who needs that drama in the bedroom? Read the forums. Become confident enough to tell him that he doesn't know what he's talking about. And no, if swinging means this much stress and anxiety because you can't trust him, you're never going to be happy with it. So if he wants to keep going with you in the lifestyle, he better learn to start listening to you AND respecting you.

[slevin 1,374]

Agree totally with PB&J. It isn't fair to you or to the other couple for your boyfriend to not respect you or your boundaries like that. You should not have to watch him at all. He is also spouting some serious crap when he tells you that he just can't control himself. That is a flat out lie; he can control himself no problem, he just doesn't want to.

 

There are many, many couples involved in swinging out there who do only soft-swap. We have had a bunch of encounters where it was nothing but soft-swap even when the couples that we met are open to full-swap. We were up front that we were only comfortable with soft-swap and they respected that. No one ever pressured us to full-swap, no one ever tried to ignore our boundaries and full-swap anyway and I never had any issues restraining myself from fucking the other woman. There will be full-swap couples who won't play with soft-swap couples, but in my experience those are in the minority; most people seem to either be soft-swap only or totally comfortable playing with a soft-swap only couple. Even when there is clear communication that it will only ever be soft-swap. In my experience it tends to focus more on chemistry and attraction.

 

If I am honest here I think that you guys need to step back from swinging until he can respect you and your boundaries. Your collective comfort should be the most important thing to him through these encounters and right now it obviously isn't. I have my doubts that it will change much, but this is just a little (one-sided) snippet of your relationship so there may be other things going on that would change that perspective. Based on this though I find it hard to believe that he truly respects you and your relationship; based on this he seems selfish, impatient and uncaring about your relationship.

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

I got a little upset during our second encounter because I had to actually physically stop him from penetrating the other female. He is fully aware that I'm not ready for full swap, but he claims that in the moment, he is just like an animal and can't control it.

 

 

 

He can't control it? Give me a flippin' break. I'm sorry, but he's being a jerk, pure and simple. Either he respects you, your relationship with him and the rules you set up beforehand or he doesn't. There's no inbetween. There's no "well it will only happen when I'm really excited" or any other crap. Either he does, or he doesn't.

 

Vehemently agree with others above. The swinging stops until he shows some responsibility and respect for you.

 

And, soft swingers are definitely welcome in the lifestyle. There's no shortage of people willing to soft swing. Read up here yourself. Check out the archives. Get your own information.

 

You should NEVER have to be watching your partner like a hawk to see if he does something that breaks the rules.

[JustMrJ 178]

I agree with all the above... and, there is a quote I have read on this forum more than once...

 

"You only swing as fast as the SLOWEST person wants to."

 

This applies VERY much to your situation. Not only is he shoveling the bullshit about not being able to control himself, he is not being honest with you in your conversations.

 

Revisit these conversations outside the bedroom... at breakfast, lunch, dinner, in front of the TV, etc. Make sure you are both honest and open about your issues, wants and desires.

 

Trust is the best gift that I give my wife in this LifeStyle and if I ever took that away from her, she would slam on the brakes so hard my neck would snap!

 

Take a break and really talk things out. Good luck!

[lustylearning 705]

The basic answer to your question is "Yes." He should respect you enough to control himself. The suggestion that he can't is entirely absurd. Don't buy into it or he'll have a ready made excuse for selfish acts at your expense throughout the duration of your relationship.

[N8ture Girl 318]

I too agree with the other posters above. There should be complete trust in your SO to not overstep your boundries. The only "watching" that should be going on is the fun kind! Watching your SO enjoy themselves and getting turned on by it kind of fun!

You should never have to watch him to make sure he is playing by the rules. Your boyfriend is being selfish and immature and thinking with his little brain between his legs and not with the big one thats sitting up on his shoulders!

 

Empower yourself with the info here on the board, and maybe encourage him to look here too. Let me ask this, was he into swinging before you met him? Or is this something he found out about, looked into breifly and thought "cool, lets do this" ?

[ArianaAR 15]

I just want to thank everyone so far for all of the comments and advice. As a new swinger, I definitely appreciate any and all support. You all have definitely left me with a lot to think about and discuss with my boyfriend.

 

In response to N8ture Girl, he was into swinging before me. He actually had another relationship before me in which swinging was a part. To this point, I have trusted him to know and share what he knows from his own experiences. From this site, though, I've realized the importance of doing my own research.

[truckerbuddy 127]

to all of you..

[WesternSwing 504]

I'm calling the bullshit rule on him. No man is so like an animal that he can't stop what he is doing.

 

The answer is: no, you should not have to watch him like a hawk to make sure he isn't violating your rules.

 

If he is pushing it, it is just proof that he is not emotionally mature enough to swing or have any kind of open relationship. It also shows that he more in it for his personal benefit and pleasure than yours or both of yours as a couple.

 

My advice it to stop swinging until he can grow-up and realize that it isn't about him, it's about both of you. Right now he's acting like it's all about him.

[IvoryTowers 380]

Just adding one more voice to the collection. I agree with everything everyone has said.

 

He's not like an animal; he's using that as an excuse to stomp all over your boundaries. If someone came in with a shotgun and said "stop" I bet he could stop. If his mother walked through the door, I bet he could stop. He could control himself if he wanted to.

 

I also wanted to question the other couple. If they knew you were only comfortable with soft swap, what was this woman doing letting your boyfriend (almost) penetrate her? I wonder if either they've gotten mixed signals from your boyfriend ("Oh she says she's softswap but when she gets going she's really comfortable with anything") or are in collusion ("If we go ahead and do it she'll see it really isn't that bad."). Either is appalling behavior. The other possibility is that she's self-centered and rude, and that's not much better.

 

If you do swing again (and I agree with everyone that you shouldn't until your boyfriend PROVES he can respect your wishes), loudly and firmly make your wishes known to everyone involved. Don't be quiet or ambiguous; make absolutely sure that the other couple knows what your boundaries are and that they are completely solid at the moment.

[Rembrandt 15]

Your man is not necessarily being truthful. Anyone can control their own activities. Your concerns and feelings are valid. So are his. There is no legitimate workable philosophy that requires "my way or the highway" on either side. That being said there is no legitimate workable philosophy that requires concensus.

 

No person owns another. You are your own unique and valued person, so is he. It is great when two unique and valued people can work together. I think that we may spend too much time worried about what another is doing. This goes both ways. That being said there is never any reason why you should feel bad for how you feel. It is what it is. He should respect that.

 

In our rush to be correct we also tend to ignore the fact that the other person, who may be me more experienced or more adventerous, also has valid feelings and thoughts. The problem is being able to get each other to understand the other's stance.

 

sorry for the psycho-babble

Rembrandt

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

Just want to add an additional thought to this. There's another angle to the bullshit that he can't control himself and has to penetrate the other woman if he gets too excited.

 

If you go play with another couple, and you express the rules that you're a soft swap couple and don't want vaginal sex to be part of this, what do you think the other couple is going to think when your boyfriend penetrates the other woman?

 

There's ALL kinds of bad things that can come from that. They might not be ready birth control wise. The spouse/boyfriend of the other woman might physically assault your boyfriend. And worse. This isn't worth attempting, not by a long shot.

 

Either he can control his urges or he can't swing. Period. Ask him if he gets uncontrollable urges to pee his pants, or if he somehow manages to control his animal instinct to pee until he gets to a toilet.

 

I bet I can hazard a guess as to why his last relationship ended.

[graygo98 148]

Who knows whether its “fair” or not? Don’t you really mean, is it right for your boyfriend to break your rules? Short answer, if you aren’t comfortable with you having sex with another man it isn’t right for him to pressure you.

 

Him having sex with another woman seems a bit different. As long as the other couple knows there will be no reciprocity and are ok with that, should it matter to you? If it does, why shouldn’t he be able to? If it isn’t right for him to pressure you to behave in a way you don’t want to, should it be ok for you to pressure him to behave the way you want him to?

 

Intuition897 once wrote on this board that the greatest gift her husband ever gave her was the freedom to fully express her sexuality. That really impressed me then, and it has stayed with me since. That is the gift I have given Ms G.

 

Recently we were seeing another couple similar to you. He had had experience in the LS, she had not. In conversation with him before our second meet, he had said that he would only go as far as his wife and I did. I told him that if he and Ms G were getting into each other and wanted to go all the way I was totally fine with that. More than fine, actually, if it meant her having a great time. If his wife was content to just caress and watch that was fine with me to. The thought of Ms G getting turned right on only to get a douse of cold water because his wife and I had failed to launch seemed unfair to Ms G. As it turned out, the experience sort of confirmed our general rule to avoid newbies and people with lots of rules.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Is it fair that I have to watch him like a hawk so that he won't cross the boundaries we've discussed? Shouldn't he respect me enough to control himself until I am more comfortable?

 

No it's not fair and yes he should respect you AND your boundaries. Trying to say that he can't control his animalistic instincts is just plain bullshit! He can control it, he just has no desire to do so, which to me says he has no respect for you. It sounds to me like he's using you as a ticket to get access to more couples and you need a new bf.

[Additude 457]

Did you and your BF have an agreement between the both of you that you BOTH would only soft-swap until YOU were ready to move to the next level, or was that YOUR rule and you expect your BF to respect it?

 

If that's YOUR rule and YOUR expectation, then that’s YOUR decision.

 

If your BF wanted to respect YOUR decision and has decidedly agreed to YOU that he would refrain from anything outside of soft-swap, then your BF has a personal agreement with you and a personal obligation to maintain and respect your boundaries. His "Animal" response is juvenile at best and he was only testing you, putting you on the spot in a peer situation. Good job sticking to your guns.

 

If your BF did not communicate to you, (either verbally agreeing to previous discussion or even by saying "No" he wouldn't), that he agreed to YOUR decision, then YOU can only be considerate of YOUR decisions and YOUR expectations.

 

What I think is going on here is that your BF has experience and wants you to be fully involved with him in the lifestyle. He needs a partner so he can swing as a couple. You have no experience and therefore are apprehensive as to if you want to go as far as intercourse in a swap situation so this is a personal decision on your part that you want your BF to respect.

 

What I suggest is you do some soul searching and absolutely decide what it is you want. If your BF is not willing to "Play by YOUR rules", then you have to decide if you want to continue on with your relationship with your BF, continue with a swinging relationship with your BF, have ground rules that BOTH you and your BF agree to and YOU need to decide what it is YOUR apprehensive about and what expectation YOU are placing on your BF as to when you will feel that you are "ready" to move on from soft-swap.

 

Your BF isn't going to fly in a holding pattern indefinitely.

[The Fuse 1,012]

Who knows whether its “fair” or not? Don’t you really mean, is it right for your boyfriend to break your rules? Short answer, if you aren’t comfortable with you having sex with another man it isn’t right for him to pressure you.

 

Him having sex with another woman seems a bit different. As long as the other couple knows there will be no reciprocity and are ok with that, should it matter to you? If it does, why shouldn’t he be able to?

 

She was obviously comfortable NEITHER with having sex with another man NOR him having sex with another woman. Someone with no experience in swinging should not be expected just to adjust overnight, if in fact at all!

 

Asking "should it matter" to her seems like you are saying that it shouldn't matter to her, which is pretty ridiculous. Again, expecting someone new to just be all right with that is asking a LOT.

 

If it isn’t right for him to pressure you to behave in a way you don’t want to, should it be ok for you to pressure him to behave the way you want him to?

This is a real winner. We're not talking about equivalency here. We're talking about a specific type of behaviour. It's not right for him to pressure her to have sex with someone else. It's not right for him to insist that she be fine with him having sex with someone else. Twisting it into some tit for tat argument doesn't work. That's like saying, "If it isn't right for me to pressure you to serve you dinner in a french maid outfit and then do the dishes, then it's not right for you to pressure me to have a job". It doesn't work because the specific behaviour is not okay. Putting it into abstraction is just a way of diverting attention away from that.

[The Fuse 1,012]

Did you and your BF have an agreement between the both of you that you BOTH would only soft-swap until YOU were ready to move to the next level, or was that YOUR rule and you expect your BF to respect it?

 

If that's YOUR rule and YOUR expectation, then that’s YOUR decision.

 

If your BF wanted to respect YOUR decision and has decidedly agreed to YOU that he would refrain from anything outside of soft-swap, then your BF has a personal agreement with you and a personal obligation to maintain and respect your boundaries. His "Animal" response is juvenile at best and he was only testing you, putting you on the spot in a peer situation. Good job sticking to your guns.

 

If your BF did not communicate to you, (either verbally agreeing to previous discussion or even by saying "No" he wouldn't), that he agreed to YOUR decision, then YOU can only be considerate of YOUR decisions and YOUR expectations.

 

What I think is going on here is that your BF has experience and wants you to be fully involved with him in the lifestyle. He needs a partner so he can swing as a couple. You have no experience and therefore are apprehensive as to if you want to go as far as intercourse in a swap situation so this is a personal decision on your part that you want your BF to respect.

 

What I suggest is you do some soul searching and absolutely decide what it is you want. If your BF is not willing to "Play by YOUR rules", then you have to decide if you want to continue on with your relationship with your BF, continue with a swinging relationship with your BF, have ground rules that BOTH you and your BF agree to and YOU need to decide what it is YOUR apprehensive about and what expectation YOU are placing on your BF as to when you will feel that you are "ready" to move on from soft-swap.

 

Your BF isn't going to fly in a holding pattern indefinitely.

 

You're saying that her feelings about what they do as a couple are her own problem. This is wrong. They are a couple. You are right that their different desires may be a deal breaker, and they may not be a couple much longer. But to say that her feelings about living an alternate lifestyle, doing something most people are not suited to do, are her own problem is just wrong. Whatever rules they have not HER rules or HIS rules. They are THEIR rules as a couple and are always the result of compromise and consideration for each other's feelings. If one person is willing to do less than the other, they have to work it out so that both people are comfortable. Or, they have to break up.

 

You seem to be saying that whatever he wants to do sexually is his decision and it's independent of her. Again, wrong. Each member of a couple, at least a successful couple, has to consider the feelings of his or her partner and consider those feelings important. If he were single, it might be a different story. This is one of the differences between being a single and being part of a couple.

[IvoryTowers 380]

Intuition897 once wrote on this board that the greatest gift her husband ever gave her was the freedom to fully express her sexuality. That really impressed me then, and it has stayed with me since. That is the gift I have given Ms G.

 

Yes--a GIFT you GAVE, not a demand you unhappily excused because it was clear Ms. G was going to take what she wanted anyway.

 

As The Fuse said, this isn't about her or him, it is about them as a couple. From what the OP wrote, it seems clear that they discussed her fears beforehand, she agreed to work on expanding her boundaries and he agreed to respect those boundaries while she was working.

 

Obviously, if months from now, the OP decides she'll never be comfortable with full swap they will have to discuss and renegotiate, but that would be a discussion, not a unilateral decision by the boyfriend (or his penis) in the middle of a play session.

[Additude 457]

FUSE,

 

So who made you the righteous judge of all?

 

I don't care if you disagree with me. I wasn't responding to you or anything you had to say.

 

I was providing the OP (NOT YOU) with what I felt was my opinion, some clarity and some food for thought. The OP can take what I said and disagree with it outright or consider it. It may work for them, it may not. It is nothing more than reading material. I was not belligerent or distasteful in my response. I was not condemning or patronizing or making a personal attack.

 

But whether what I had to say to the OP works for you or not, whether you would consider what I had to say to the OP or not is of no importance to anyone but yourself.

 

Neither I, nor anyone else who posts here is here to be judged by you and publicly criticized by you for posting something they feel can be helpful unless they specifically ask for your feedback or post derogatory remarks. In which case you should report the post to a moderator.

 

Until that time, you are not entitled.

 

*I apologize to the OP for this conduct and topic diversion.

[The Fuse 1,012]

FUSE,

 

So who made you the righteous judge of all?

 

I don't care if you disagree with me. I wasn't responding to you or anything you had to say.

 

I was providing the OP (NOT YOU) with what I felt was my opinion, some clarity and some food for thought. The OP can take what I said and disagree with it outright or consider it. It may work for them, it may not. It is nothing more than reading material. I was not belligerent or distasteful in my response. I was not condemning or patronizing or making a personal attack.

 

But whether what I had to say to the OP works for you or not, whether you would consider what I had to say to the OP or not is of no importance to anyone but yourself.

 

Neither I, nor anyone else who posts here is here to be judged by you and publicly criticized by you for posting something they feel can be helpful unless they specifically ask for your feedback or post derogatory remarks. In which case you should report the post to a moderator.

 

Until that time, you are not entitled.

 

*I apologize to the OP for this conduct and topic diversion.

 

As you may or may not have noticed, I did not take issue with you personally. Nor did I post anything derogatory about you personally. I only disagreed with the content of your post. If I was too forceful in my disagreement, sorry about that. But not too sorry, because I disagreed strongly. I could have said "I disagree" instead of "this is wrong", and maybe I should have. However, I felt that the response was appropriate for the OP and others reading the thread to see.

 

Regarding judging, well, this is a board where people give their opinions. It is impossible to do that without using judgment. I gave an opinion on your response, one that addressed things relevant to the topic, without deriding you personally. And I did it in public.

 

As this is a discussion board, I was discussing the topic of the thread. It's perfectly legitimate, even expected, to discuss earlier responses to a thread as well as the original post. I've been disagreed with in the past and will be again in the future. As long as everything stays polite, which it has so far, I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

I'll join you in apologizing for the thread jack.

[ArianaAR 15]

First off, I just want to say that I appreciate the many responses I've received about this topic. Whether I agree with all of the comments or not doesn't really matter. It's nice to see the situation from different perspectives because I know mine isn't always right or the only one that works.

 

I think the biggest thing I feel is that swinging should be about us, together, as a couple. While I get that I'm asking him to sacrifice in that I need him to hold back right now because I'm not comfortable, I'm also giving a lot in return. When he first brought up swinging to me, I was upset and hurt. I didn't understand anything about swinging. I took it personally.

 

However, eventually I was able to open my mind and start understanding what swinging is really about, and now that I've actually participated in swinging with him twice, I think I deserve a little credit. So, I'm not a swinging expert yet...how can anyone expect me to be 100% comfortable after ONLY two experiences? Obviously, it's been a progression, and with time it may progress to the ultimate level that my boyfriend wants. I just need time, which I don't think is selfish of me to ask for.

 

I get this idea of it being a gift to want your partner to be so happy that you are willing to give the gift of freedom to express sexuality... The truth is, though, that I have already given him a gift. I have changed the way I think and opened myself up to this experience because of and for him. I don't resent it, but I would resent giving him an even bigger gift of complete sexual freedom if it meant completely sacrificing myself in the process. Swinging should be about our happiness together with others, not me acting as a martyr so my boyfriend can have a field day to do as he pleases. After all, true swingers don't swing because they are dissatisfied in their relationship. I know that I fully satisfy my boyfriend... isn't that a gift in itself...a happy, healthy, loving relationship? Swinging is something extra, not something that should ever have more power than our actual relationship.

[graygo98 148]

I'll join you in apologizing for the thread jack.

 

No need to apologize for the highjack. Your posts, and Attitudes, are really getting to the heart of the issue.

 

For the OP, and anyone else in her position, it seems to me that there are four possible outcomes if his desires and hers continue to clash in this way: (a) she gives in to him, (b) he gives in to her, © they learn to tolerate and respect their differences, and (d) they split up. Better still if they come to desire the same things, but that's not looking likely, at least anytime soon, from what I read in the OP.

 

Maybe I am crazy, but I think that c is the best outcome. By the way the situation looks to be going, though, d is probably the best bet. These folks seem well past "Houston, we have a problem."

[graygo98 148]

Swinging is something extra, not something that should ever have more power than our actual relationship.

 

Very well put, Ariana. I understand totally where you are coming from and what you are saying. This is exactly how we view it, also. And you have come a long way.

 

Without hearing him speak in his own defence, your boyfriend seems like a bit of a jerk. Or, at least pretty obsessed with swinging. This isn't totally uncommon, though, judging by all the married guys with "wives who don't understand" who write us every week. It is something that the two of you will have to wrestle down and come to some understanding on or you are going to have a lot of trouble.

 

And please don't get me wrong. In spite of all my preaching to you, if I was in your position I would feel exactly the same way, but with less patience and grace.

[funn 15]

 

While I get that I'm asking him to sacrifice in that I need him to hold back right now because I'm not comfortable,

 

Sacrifice...???? I would hardly call that a sacrifice. It should be something he would just want to do.

 

Dump him girl. He's using you as a ticket for fun.

[lovinher 505]

FUSE...

[The Fuse 1,012]

Thanks man I may not deserve it, but I'll take it.

 

Hey, I went to perv your SLS profile and couldn't find it using a membername search for Lovinall. Is it still there?

[lovinher 505]

Hey, you can perv me anytime. We didn't renew it and I need to change our profle here. Too much like dating, IMO. Clubs are more our thing but we may try Swing Lifestyle again just so I can perv your profile.

[bi_slinky4u 15]

The rules are rules for a reason. It's to allow everyone to enjoy the situation. If he's not sticking to the rules you agreed upon, you should probably stop and figure out if it's what BOTH of you really want. It should be a mutual decision, not one sided. In respecting the rules, you are also respecting each other.

 

Good luck.