I can't handle swinging anymore, but my husband wants to continue

[SpyBunny 37]

I posted previously about the swinging history of my husband and me in another thread. It hasn't been pretty.

 

I've been talking to H about our feelings regarding the whole matter the last couple days, and we're at a stalemate. I can't handle watching him with another women and would be content to leave the lifestyle entirely. H points out that I have had some good times with it, he has had some good times, why can't we have good times together in the lifestyle? To him it's not just the sex- he says he also enjoys the atmosphere of the clubs, the sexy, edgy vibes that people give out there, the thrill of going against norms. And don't I enjoy refusing to become the frumpy wife that a lot of his friends have? I pointed out that the occasions when I had the most fun were the ones when I was by myself- I can only enjoy it if he's out of sight, out of mind- can't do it with him. Couple activities I have problems with.

 

He asks why I would be willing to give up having that fun? I've pointed out to him that I can live without this and be content with one man for the rest of my life- I don't need this and it's not working for me as a couple. We can find social outlets elsewhere. His response: he believes it's made us stronger as a couple and really improved our sex lives. He has the best sex with me after being with someone else. I believe the total opposite: I have put a wall up around me that keeps me distant from him emotionally and sex afterwards feels really off.

 

I have asked him previously which was more important to him- me or the freedom to have a variety of swing partners. He won't answer that because he feels I'm painting him into a corner to say he'll drop it for me- and claims he could easily ask the reverse: if H was the most important thing to me, then I would be willing to do this. Thing is- that's exactly why I've done it this long (6 or 7 years), and I can't anymore. We're at a stalemate- has anyone else had these kind of discussions/impasses? Am I making too much of the whole situation and should just go along with it like I have been?

[ktimephoenix 156]

you ARE thinking too much about it. dump him...

 

OR at least drop the swinging. it's not working for you, and your husband won't respect your feelings on it all... so it's not swinging. it's "justified" cheating.

 

there may be 100 reasons WHY your finding swinging unenjoyable, but without a TRUELY supportive husband, there is no reason to even start looking at them. your husband isn't practicing swinging. if he were, your feelings would be as important if not more important as his own

[The Fuse 1,012]

From your post in this thread and those in the other thread, it is plain as day that you and he want different things. And not just different things for dinner. This is important and deep enough that it has warranted counseling, and you have been on antidepressants. Serious stuff.

 

You have a 20-year marriage and at least one child, so it's not as simple as just dumping the guy.

 

It is also plain that he wants what he wants, and he is willing to walk all over you to get it. Your needs and wants are just not as important to him as his own. If your feelings were his priority, he would not have persisted for this long and would not keep insisting that you swing. I'm going to guess that an ultimatum would either get you divorced, which you may or may not be okay with, or it will get you a husband who cheats behind your back.

 

I could write a lot more about this, but the way I see it you have a few choices. You get a divorce and are free of these problems and of your marriage, but you give up whatever is good about your marriage. That's a very major deal, especially after building a life together for 20 years. Or, you decide to give him an ultimatum and ignore it when he cheats on you. Because he will. It is obvious that he feels he is entitled to sexual variety.

 

Or, IF you are okay with him having sex with other women when you don't see it, you just give him permission. I am not sure from your other posts whether you would consider it a workable option for him to seek partners on his own. Somehow I think you would rather him not do that, and you have that right, but it's a right that he might not recognize. Life isn't fair, and your husband is not being fair to you or respectful of you.

 

It seems like whenever you express to him your unhappiness, he just persists in saying that you should be happy with the situation, that you should enjoy swinging. His persistence in spite of your repeated attempts to tell him that you in fact don't enjoy it, just means that he cares much less about your feelings than he does about his own desires. You have to decide how much you are willing to put up with.

 

Good luck, whatever you decide. It's easy for us to sit here and say what we think you should do, but only you know for sure. We all teach others how to treat us. Some people will push things as far as you let them. You got a raw deal. He tries to make you feel a certain way by saying you should feel that way. He keeps acting as if you actually feel the way he wants you to feel. When that makes you unhappy, he wants to put you on medication. It seems like he just wants you in line and is willing to medicate you to get you there. We haven't seen his side, but he sounds pretty evil.

[crazykatie 139]

At the risk of getting

 

This is a debate that rages in many relationship where each partner wants decidedly different things in their sexual relationship. He is clearly happy rejecting monogamy for the recreational aspects of swinging. You, on the other hand, want (to return to) a monogamous relationship. He feels that you should be willing to accept a little bit of discomfort for him. You feel that he should forgo what he is clearly enjoying for you.

 

Here are my opinions:

 

1. You should not have sex with anyone against your will.

 

2. It seems to me that you want him (and expect him, maybe) to change his stripes for you. Right and wrong have no meaning here. There is only what he is willing to do and what you are willing to do. And, it very well may be that he is unwilling to give up swinging at this point in order to stay in the relationship with you. So, you can want him to be different. But, at this point, it seems to me that your choices are to leave him and the relationship or be prepared to live with constant pressure to return to swinging. Moreover, the more you resist returning to swinging, the more he is likely to view your resistance as an unreasonable rejection of him sexually and an affirmation that you really don't love him the way he wants (needs) to be loved.

 

3. So, you have said that you can live without the swinging. How committed are you to having a life that does not include swinging? Are you prepared to leave him? If the choice is no swinging or I am leaving--then you need to tell him that. And, you need to be prepared to live with the possibility that he will choose the swinging over the relationship with you.

 

4. Alternatively, if swinging is not a relationship imperative to you and is simply something that you can take or leave (which your post seems to suggest) and you are frustrated because (right now) you want to leave it and he isn't following--I wonder why you feel empowered to control your joint sexual life in this way. Maybe what he is rejecting is your right to decide unilaterally how the two of you should interact sexually.

 

Now, I expect to get flamed here, but IMO the truth is that a number of relationships are defined by differences in sexual interest and libido. And, many, many married couples spend years working to find acceptable middle grounds between what is ideally desirable for each independently. Our society expects married couples to remain monogamous. But, I contend that divorce rates are a strong indicator that the expectation of monogamy is maybe, just maybe unrealistic in many relationships (particularly where the degree of sexual interest differs greatly). So, what is more important--the relationship or the sexual monogamy? If you cannot have both, which are you willing to live without? Because, it is possible that with this man, you may have to choose. Before you choose, be sure to talk to some number of unmarried females in your age bracket and ask them how easy it is to find an otherwise good man at your age. You may find out that your choice is really between having a relationship without monogamy and no relationship at all.

 

I am not saying that this reality should cause you to accept something which you cannot stand. But, if what we are talking about is a preference and not an imperative, I suggest that you truly consider what your options are. All the complaining in the world (whether to this board or to other locations) will not make your man see the "rightness" of your position.

 

And to everyone who would flame me--I am not defending him. He may be a cad and he may not be worth staying with under these circumstances. But, that is a decision that she must make. I am merely observing that he is unlikely to change his spots. And, getting angrier and angrier at his decision to remain intransigent can only serve to cause her to become more and more committed to him changing his position when, in fact, she may be able (just unwilling) to live with the non-monogamy. If that is the case, it may be better for her to select that path than to take another.

 

OK - flame away...

[it'sso 198]

With only one version of the situation available, it would be hard for me to offer advice to the complainant. In any event, the reason that my spouse and I joined the lifestyle was to see if we could enhance her desire for sexual encounters with me. I had hoped that she would be more outgoing and even hoped that she would initiate sexual contact with me, once she had a more rounded sexual experience.

Never the less, it really didn't do anything for her low libido, so we no longer indulge in group activities. I suppose had I not encountered so many women who harbored preconceived notions of what was desirable in a man, I might have been reluctant to stop as well.

I don't think I would have been willing to tank our marriage over losing the lifestyle.

[CXXC 435]

Perhaps I missed this somewhere. Does he expect you to continue to be with others as well? More over, is his expectation of you to work as a couple seeking other couples?

I ask this question simply to iliminate my ignorance. If this is the situation you speak of, my take on the issue is that he knows that his chances of playing are limited wihtout you. He would then be a man with a hall pass. He would be reduced to one of the many single men out there in the playing field and by keeping you involved int he lifestyle, he has a better chance of fulfilling his desires.

If this is the case, you need to drop the lifestyle and let him fend for himself. If you are ok with his activities, let him try (Frustrating as it will become) to find women he will be able to engage.

As for you; your decisions are clear. Accept his demands or do not. If he threatens divorce over it, his declaration of love for you is hollow and meaningless. You do not deserv that after 20 years.

[SpyBunny 37]

I'm sorry- I didn't mean to sound like I was whining and complaining. After our conversation last night, I was very unsure of myself and needed to hear if my feelings were valid or not. 2x4's to the head are accepted if needed... (I felt like I was being told my feelings were just plain wrong or that I shouldn't feel that way.)

 

The current situation is that I'm taking a break from the lifestyle while I'm thinking things over and he can go do whoever he wants at the moment , just leave me out of it (my attempt to prevent him from suffering on my account while I figure things out). His preference is for us to continue playing as a couple, but that's something that's out of the question for me. Second choice is to continue on his own. For a long time, I have felt like bait in this whole thing, as we both know his chances are far better if I'm with him.

 

I want the monogamous relationship we had at the beginning but that doesn't seem to be an option. I don't want to share my husband or be shared myself. I'm sorry if that sounds like petty jealousy but I had thought sex would be special and reserved between us as a married couple, but the rules changed on me. I don't want to be a swinger, and never did, and I'm working on building up the strength to tell him that- I am not good at speaking up for myself and I am very scared about the possible consequences. We have two kids, 18 and 16, and their needs will be the overriding consideration in all this, no matter what happens.

 

Again, I'm sorry if I sounded like I'm whining, there just aren't many people around whom you can talk to about a situation like this or to bounce ideas off of. Thank you for listening, and I'll continue to work on building up my backbone.

[crazykatie 139]

As for you; your decisions are clear. Accept his demands or do not. If he threatens divorce over it, his declaration of love for you is hollow and meaningless. You do not deserv that after 20 years.

 

I don't think the original poster can just decide not to continue swinging without putting THE ultimate question to the husband.

 

Someone in the relationship has to affirmatively decide which is more important--continuing the relationship they way they prefer (either with or without swinging) or ending the relationship. They cannot each attempt to continue avoiding making that affirmative decision (hoping that the other will come around) and, in the process, make the other's life miserable.

 

Unless they each face the prospect of ending the relationship, they will each continue playing the same game of chicken in which they are currently engaged. He will continue to up the amount of pressure he is putting on her (both direct and passive aggressive) to continue to swing. She will continue to cycle down into a depressive pit in the (forlorn) hope that he will recognize just how miserable he is making her and discontinue pressuring her to swing.

 

The only way the pressure to swing will stop is if she makes clear her decision to end the relationship unless he commits to restoring the monogamy. Then, should he attempt to reassert the pressure to swing, she will be empowered to stamp it out with a reference to her ultimatum and his affirmative election to place the relationship above the swinging.

 

Of course, what I think she really fears is that he will decide to end the relationship. Indeed, her initial posting tells of her continuing practice of deciding to appease him in an effort to avoid the specter of divorce. So, it seems to me that she has already decided that staying in the relationship is more important to her than living in a monogamous relationship.

 

It is easy for us to say that she "deserves" better. But, she has spent years making this "bed" by avoiding the potential alternative--ending the relationship. I don't doubt that she is unhappy with the choice and would wish that he was a different man. But, the fact of the matter is that he isn't that man and there must be something else that is good in him or she would have no reason for holding on to this relationship so hard. Further, by now he has been conditioned by years of her appeasement to believe that he can coerce her into doing his bidding in the bedroom. There is absolutely no reason to believe that he will abate the coercive pressure merely because she newly announces her desire to discontinue the activity.

 

In my view, this is a classic story of a battle for supremacy in the bedroom between individuals with mismatched libidos (right down to the low self esteem and depression suffered by the lower libido individual). Painting her a victim does not help her solve her problems. The fact of the matter is that we are all not made with the same degree of sexual interest. If the relationship is the most important thing to her, she may need to adjust her view of what is desirable in a sexual relationship with her husband.

 

Again, it comes down to whether ending the swinging is an imperative to her or merely desirable. If it is an imperative, she must tell him of her decision and risk the end of the relationship. If it is not an imperative, then (IMO) she needs to consider what she is willing to accept in terms of non-monogamy to meet his desires--and stop wishing he was someone that he is not.

[crazykatie 139]

The current situation is that I'm taking a break from the lifestyle while I'm thinking things over and he can go do whoever he wants at the moment , just leave me out of it (my attempt to prevent him from suffering on my account while I figure things out). His preference is for us to continue playing as a couple, but that's something that's out of the question for me. Second choice is to continue on his own. For a long time, I have felt like bait in this whole thing, as we both know his chances are far better if I'm with him.

 

OK, I am going to risk another---

 

I wonder if you are seriously committed to a need for monogamy or merely engaging in a passive aggressive attempt to coerce him to stop the behavior.

 

I am not in your shoes and do not know what is in year heart, but if I were you, I would not allow my husband to play alone. The choice for me would be to play together--make it a together thing--or restore the monogamy. It seems to me that the option you are considering is based upon what I think is a bad premise, that it is difficult for middle aged married men to find sex partners. In my experience, there is no shortage of women on the market for desirable middle aged men, many with designs on establishing a relationship with that man.

 

You seem to assume that he will continue to swing (if allowed) with women who are generally interested in recreational sex. I will agree that he is likely to have difficulty locating such swing partners. So, if this becomes your long term solution, he is far more likely to step out with women who are in it, not just for the recreational sex, but also for emotional affairs.

 

I would not leave things as they are for very long. If you really cannot stand the thought of sharing him--then you know what you need to do. But, if the real issues are jealousy and lack of personal enjoyment in the activity, I suggest you consider what you may be faced with if you elect to completely disassociate yourself from his sexual outlets.

 

Now, it is easy for me to say, because I totally get recreational sex and enjoy it a great deal. But, if I were you, I would take charge of the things I can control rather than leaving my husband adrift in the arms of women who I could not monitor. So, I'd look hard at why I am resisting engaging in recreational sex if monogamy is not a sufficient imperative to simply end the relationship.

 

Good luck.

[SpyBunny 37]

I have been scared to death of getting a divorce. I should have stood firm years ago, but didn't out of fear and lived with the results. I've been building the strength to change my situation now- it's been an ongoing process for about a year. We are both the passive-aggressive types, not good at expressing what we feel, and he's the stronger of the two of us. It's been hard for me to stand up and say what I want, but I'm trying- and he's not used to that.

 

After last night, a final conversation about swinging is the only next step, I know that. We've set out our positions, but we have to set out the final resolution. I've been tap-dancing around it for a long time, stalling the inevitable, but it's time. Over the last couple months, I think I've gotten myself to a place where I can go through with a divorce if it comes to that- emotionally and financially. And I appreciate the collective kick in the pants to get going with that conversation. Thanks.

[SW_PA_Couple 4,024]

Are there things in your marriage that you value? You and your husband should consider counseling. Counselors and therapists do not judge and do not lecture. They help get things out into the open so they can be examined. There is probably more to be exposed than the question of swinging.

 

~Michael

[ktimephoenix 156]

Counselors and therapists do not judge and do not lecture.

 

slight offtopic... but i have yet to find one that doesn't let their personal bias colour their therapy sessions. it's human nature.

 

to Katie... the O.P. has expressed a pretty strong distaste for the "swinging" side of things.

 

my (possibly naive) belief is that "swinging" is supposed to be an enhancement to a relationship, BUT the primary relationship and the emotional wellbeing of both members are more important than the swinging... obv

[hamlet 53]

First of all, I have to say that, after reading the responses on this thread, I've been really impressed with the careful thought that went into just about all of them. And I say that even though I disagree with most, as I'll explain in a moment.

 

To SpyBunny: You were concerned about whether your feelings about this are valid. In my opinion, they're absolutely valid. Swinging is an activity which a couple can happily engage in only if both are fully consenting at the very least. My wife and I discovered this the hard way in our early swinging days, when I was apparently pushing her too hard. She told me she didn't like it anymore, and my immediate response was that we ought to stop. And we did, for about two years. Then, after a long series of conversations in which we carefully sorted through what went wrong the first time around and how to avoid having it happen again, we took baby steps to re-enter the lifestyle. We've now been happy full swappers for about 11 years. But if she were to tell me tomorrow that she wanted to stop again, my response would be the same. It seems to me that, in swinging, the two members of the couple are like two presidents: each of them has a veto. We play individual situations the same way that we played our overall decision to exit/re-enter the lifestyle--i.e., if there's a couple that one of us wants to swing with and one doesn't, we don't. If there's an activity that one would like to engage in and the other doesn't, we don't. If we're at a party and one of us would like to stay and the other would like to leave, we leave. It's what I remember learning in Algebra: multiply a positive term by a negative term, and the answer is a negative.

 

Having said that, my disagreement with most of the other respondents comes down to this: I don't think that SpyBunny's is necessarily an either/or situation--although, in the end, that's how it may turn out. But, before reaching the point of deciding either to get a divorce or resume unwilling participation in swinging, there are some half-measures you might consider. If what your husband really likes is the sense of sexual edginess that comes from swinging and swing clubs--well, what about strip clubs instead? Or what about going to on-premise clubs just as observers--or, perhaps, as observers who then move on to playing only with each other? An off-premise club, where you keep your hands to yourselves and to each other, might work too: the limited sexual interaction that you often see on the dance floor makes it edgier than a strip club but not quite as extreme as an on-premise club. Also, there are lots of personal ads I see, on AFF in particular, in which couples express a desire to meet others for same-room sex, but only to watch and be watched (we don't answer those ads, as that's not our thing, but I know they're to be found). Any or all of these might keep things sufficiently spiced up for him and sufficiently safe and monogamous for you.

 

Or maybe not. Perhaps he won't be able to have a good time at a swing club without hunting for different partners; perhaps you wouldn't enjoy, or even feel comfortable in, any of the situations listed above. But it seems to me that this is stuff that's at least worth thinking about, and perhaps discussing, before you either find a lawyer or reluctantly slip into your bustier for one more go-round. Adding counseling to this, as another respondent suggested, might make it work even better.

 

Whatever you choose, good luck!

[IvoryTowers 380]

Spybunny, I applaud you for deciding to go ahead with the divorce. Not because of the swinging, but because this marriage seems to have already died.

 

I'm mostly working off your post in the other thread here, but I've been struck (and yes, I know I'm only getting one side of the story) by your husband's almost total lack of awareness to your needs. You had to get smashed to go through with your first swing encounter and afterward you threw up. Your husband's reaction? To feel "close enough" to tell you about two affairs?

 

Mr. Ivory notices if I'm slightly grumpy! If I were throwing up from emotional trauma (or any other reason), you can be damned sure he wouldn't pick that moment to drop a bombshell like that! And you say that other women have actually pointed out to your husband that you are unhappy and he's pushed you to continue with the event anyway, which reinforces the idea that he is focused on his own pleasure even when it causes you pain.

 

It's one thing to have a need and try to get it fulfilled. It's entirely another thing to see that you are causing someone you love emotional pain and pretend to yourself that if she just "keeps at it" everything will be fine.

 

Add to that his attempt to get you back on meds when you withdrew from him, his apparent acceptance of your inability to kiss him and his claim that you weren't an equal partner (which was true, or he wouldn't have bullied you, but still), and you've set before us a picture of a narcissist who is willing to mow down others to get what he wants (because he pretends he has NEEDS not wants).

 

Honestly, I would not want to raise boys with such an example of masculinity before them. Get out and let him find what he wants (or thinks he wants) without further damaging you.

[crazykatie 139]

Having said that, my disagreement with most of the other respondents comes down to this: I don't think that SpyBunny's is necessarily an either/or situation--although, in the end, that's how it may turn out. But, before reaching the point of deciding either to get a divorce or resume unwilling participation in swinging, there are some half-measures you might consider. If what your husband really likes is the sense of sexual edginess that comes from swinging and swing clubs--well, what about strip clubs instead? Or what about going to on-premise clubs just as observers--or, perhaps, as observers who then move on to playing only with each other? An off-premise club, where you keep your hands to yourselves and to each other, might work too: the limited sexual interaction that you often see on the dance floor makes it edgier than a strip club but not quite as extreme as an on-premise club. Also, there are lots of personal ads I see, on AFF in particular, in which couples express a desire to meet others for same-room sex, but only to watch and be watched (we don't answer those ads, as that's not our thing, but I know they're to be found). Any or all of these might keep things sufficiently spiced up for him and sufficiently safe and monogamous for you.

 

Or maybe not. Perhaps he won't be able to have a good time at a swing club without hunting for different partners; perhaps you wouldn't enjoy, or even feel comfortable in, any of the situations listed above. But it seems to me that this is stuff that's at least worth thinking about, and perhaps discussing, before you either find a lawyer or reluctantly slip into your bustier for one more go-round. Adding counseling to this, as another respondent suggested, might make it work even better.

 

I think that you are right that there are middle grounds that could be explored. But, IMO, he will continue pressuring her for the full monty until he knows (I mean, really knows) that she is ready to end the relationship before going back to swinging. He has no motivation to accept half a loaf when he still believes that he can (and should) have the whole loaf.

 

So long as she is unwilling to swing and sees no benefits to swinging, she will be angry at and unhappy about the pressure. Over time, her anger and unhappiness will poison whatever good may have once existed in the marriage. Reading between the lines, that appears to be where she is today. I only hope that she understands that no relationship is likely to give her everything that she wants. So, the real question is whether monogamy in the relationship is a necessary prerequisite. For many people in our society, it is (of course, for most of us, it is not). If it is an imperative for her (and not merely a preference), then she needs to make that clear to him.

 

In the end, she runs the risk that she will have no relationship because there is no assurance that she will find a replacement life partner. IMO, she must believe that no relationship is better than a relationship with him with swinging. Only she can answer that question (which, apparently, she has).

[CXXC 435]

He has had two affairs! He is insisting that she be a part of his activities within the lifestyle. He wants to keep her medicated!!! Dose anyone truly believe he will honor her request to stop? In the event that he does VERBALLY agree to do so, what are the odds that he will not find someone to have another affair with? I would bet they are pretty high.

 

NOBODY who says they love another would discount their feelings to such an extent. Would any of the people here discount their mate's request to stop swinging? Would anyone here ignore the VISIBLE discomfort of their partner at a lifestyle event?

 

This woman has informed him that she wants to go back to JUST THEM! He, for whatever reason he has, cannot justify that within his desires. Even if this couple decided to seek professional help, I would bet he would say, " That shrink is a quack!" That is IF he would agree to go!

 

I do not suggest divorce as the first action. I suggest that they seek help. If that fails, then my suggestion is to contact a lawyer. This leopard is not going to change his spots. Her mental well being is doing down the drain and he could care less.

 

KEEP HER MEDICATED? sigh.

 

I will say, I do wish we could hear his side of the story. That might shed great light on this situation for all of us. How I hate ignorance.

 

That being said, I still hold to my thoughts. Tell him that you want out 100% with his agreement to follow. If that fails, seek help. Failing that.... Well, there is little else to do!

[crazykatie 139]

I'm mostly working off your post in the other thread here, but I've been struck (and yes, I know I'm only getting one side of the story) by your husband's almost total lack of awareness to your needs.

 

...

 

Add to that his attempt to get you back on meds when you withdrew from him, his apparent acceptance of your inability to kiss him and his claim that you weren't an equal partner (which was true, or he wouldn't have bullied you, but still), and you've set before us a picture of a narcissist who is willing to mow down others to get what he wants (because he pretends he has NEEDS not wants).

 

I would not be so quick to reinforce the picture of him which she is attempting to paint.

 

Surely she is painting the very picture that you describe. But, we are getting only one side to the story and (I submit) a side that reflects her very negative attitude about the relationship, generally.

 

It is not unusual for couples in the throes of marital problems to paint their partners in the harshest terms. Now, it may be that he is all of the things that she is saying. But, it is also possible that he has a number of good qualities which are not being discussed or disclosed. In my experience, it is rare that one spouse is as great a villain as the other attempts to paint.

 

The issue here is one of choice. No man or woman is perfect (though I think women come closer ). No relationship is perfect. Relationships tend to work or not work when couples are willing to work together to find common grounds that are acceptable to them both. In some instances, that is not possible because what is important to each is in irreconcilable conflict. That may be the case here.

 

However, a surprising number of marriages fail, not because of irreconcilable conflicts, but because anger builds within the relationship over the changes each party expects the other to be making for them in the name of love. Too many people (particularly in today society) enter into relationships with the completely unrealistic expectation that their partner will change in every way necessary out of love for them and, yet, will not expect them to change at all (also because of love). The resolve not to change becomes more important than the desire to stay in the relationship.

 

Now, I am not advocating that anyone ever change to accept swinging when they are completely adverse to abandoning monogamy. But, in otherwise wonderful relationships where sexual mismatch is the only major issue between a couple, one must necessarily consider how critical monogamy should or must be to the relationship. I say this because there are, in my experience, so very few truly wonderful relationships out there. Also, I know from personal experience, that it is very difficult for higher libido individuals to remain content in a monogamous relationship when their sexual needs are not perceived to be being met.

 

I know that society creates the expectation that high libido individuals should be willing to deny themselves the sexual pleasure that they crave when their monogamous mate proves less than interested. But, that societal expectation is (again, in my experience) more often than not unmet.

 

If this is not a wonderful relationship (and that is surely the picture she is now painting), by all means she should end it. But, she should end it because it is not a wonderful relationship and not simply because he is unwilling to stop pressuring her to swing.

[CXXC 435]

The lifestyle is a HUGE magnifying glass upon relationships. For some, it is a microscope of the atomic caliber! In a marriage or relationship with the smallest of issues, the magnifications of these issues become enhanced.

 

Like an infection, if ignored, these issues will only fester and take over the body of the relationship, poisoning it to near irreparable proportions. In time, the body dies.

 

ENOUGH analogies!

 

The lifestyle is only going to exacerbate the issues that they have. If her self esteem is so low, being forced to stay in the lifestyle is only going to make that matter worse.

 

If she views his desires to be above their marriage, the lifestyle will only enforce her view of his lack of commitment to their marriage.

 

No one should be ORDERED to continue to have sex with others. This is the basic issue as stated by the OP.

 

Higher libido be damned! If the marriage is important to him, this issue should be resolved OUTSIDE of the lifestyle. His responsibility to the marriage and children should be paramount.

 

If she is not being forthright in the actual facts of the matters posted in this chain, then we are reduced to suggesting that they seek help. Her view is one sided. She knows what she feels, hears and sees. She will post those observations before giving validity to his. She cannot help but do this without the aid of an outside mediator.

 

Our view is equally distorted as we have but a single side of the story! Each of us, with a desire to offer comfort and or aid with our own understanding of our own particular experiences, are afforded a limited view of the reality that is their relationship.

 

It is difficult for one to express openly, pain, frustration or fear to strangers. The rarity of this activity gives us all hope that the OP is earnest in her posting. The strength and commitment one shows in openly seeking advice or solace is refreshing. However, our resolve to assist should be tempered with the knowledge that this is, after all, ONE SIDE of the story!

 

Again, the first step toward rectifying ANY situation is absolute and honest COMMUNICATION! Failing this, there is no reason to continue.

[crazykatie 139]

He has had two affairs! He is insisting that she be a part of his activities within the lifestyle. He wants to keep her medicated!!! Dose anyone truly believe he will honor her request to stop? In the event that he does VERBALLY agree to do so, what are the odds that he will not find someone to have another affair with? I would bet they are pretty high.

 

I think she is the one who had the emotional affairs with swing partners.

 

Don't get me wrong. I think she paints the picture of a complete cad who should be tossed to the wolves. But, we are only getting one side of the story (a side which is calculatedly being presented to paint a picture to all of us favoring her position over his).

 

If he is all of the things that she is saying, then the expectations that he will remain faithful are probably slight. But, should he stray, he will do so because he places the need for non-monogamous behavior above the need to stay in the relationship. He will know that it is an either or proposition (something that he does not know today). That he opts against monogamy is a risk in any traditional relationship in today's society (and a high one given the divorce rates in this country). Still, I think it would be wrong for her to assume that he is going to choose non-monogamous behavior over the relationship and get a divorce because that is what she thinks he might do in the future.

 

Now, if his (supposedly) uncaring and inconsiderate behavior is, alone, reason enough to end the relationship--then end the relationship for that reason.

 

Also, I agree that counseling would be good for them. But, I think it unlikely that they will find a counselor that he will connect with. Counseling is rarely effective when both parties do not accept the counselor as being open to their individual issues. She is unlikely to accept a counselor who is open minded about swinging. He is unlikely to accept one who is not.

 

And, IMO, it will still come down to whether swinging is an imperative to her. As long as he thinks he should be able to have a relationship with swinging, he has no reason to give it up.

[crazykatie 139]

No one should be ORDERED to continue to have sex with others. This is the basic issue as stated by the OP.

 

Higher libido be damned! If the marriage is important to him, this issue should be resolved OUTSIDE of the lifestyle. His responsibility to the marriage and children should be paramount.

 

Wonderful statements about how life should be. Sadly, life is rarely how we think it should be. If he feels that his legitimate sexual needs are not being met--that is his reality (whether we think it should be or not).

 

We can all pass judgment on who he should be or what decision he should make. But, he isn't the one communicating with this board. She is.

 

Parroting back to her the vision of him that she is painting for us will not help her. If he is the troll that she says he is...then what has she been doing staying married to him for all of these years? There are always two sides to every tail and we are only being supplied one side.

 

Moreover, just because we believe that he should be something or act some way will not make it so. She is the one communicating with this board, she is the one who is making decisions. Neither she nor we can make him change. So, the issue is really what is she to do.

[CXXC 435]

CrazieKaty

I cannot argue with you at all! What you have said rings quite true.

 

Our dilema is a simple one. We have only one side of the story. this is the great limitation forced upon us as it is entirely unlikely that we will ever hear from him!

 

Perhaps she should extend an invitation to her husband to post his thoughts, views and reasons as he has not been represented here.

 

I strongly doubt this will happen!

[CXXC 435]

Wonderful statements about how life should be. Sadly, life is rarely how we think it should be. If he feels that his legitimate sexual needs are not being met--that is his reality (whether we think it should be or not).

 

 

Crazycatie

 

Forgive me in my optimistic point of view, but I was always of the opinion that the world is what we make of it.

 

I try (fail on occasion) to live a life that reflects the good of mankind. I feel that society as a whole strives toward this same goal. It is only the exception OF the rule that has tainted us as a whole.

 

For all the other points you have made, AGAIN, I agree with you!

[ktimephoenix 156]

I would not be so quick to reinforce the picture of him which she is attempting to paint.

 

It is not unusual for couples in the throes of marital problems to paint their partners in the harshest terms. Now, it may be that he is all of the things that she is saying. But, it is also possible that he has a number of good qualities which are not being discussed or disclosed.

 

For all your Hyperbole, you agree they have relationship problems yes? (see your quote above).

 

relationship problems and swinging DO NOT go together... no matter what "picture" she is painting, the root of the matter is that they have marital problems. he continues to want to swing. swinging SHOULD NOT be an option until the problems are sorted. no matter how much of a saint "his" side of the story could paint him as, one, or both these people are not at an emotionally stable level to swing.

[crazykatie 139]

relationship problems and swinging DO NOT go together...

 

Couldn't agree more. They need to resolve their problems. And, I agree that it is unlikely, given the tenor of her postings, that swinging will be a part of any resolution.

 

Hey, relationships come apart over sexual differences ALL THE TIME. This is not the first, it will not be the last. It is easy to tell her to insist that he change and, when he doesn't, affirm the correctness of her decision to leave him. That conforms with societal expectations of monogamous commitment within a married relationship. And, as statistics amply confirm, that is how a great many relationships in this country resolve.

 

There is an inherent tension between sexual compatibility and monogamous commitment in relationships. Most couples are not completely sexually compatible and the monogamous commitment severely limits the options of the partner with unfilfilled sexual desires. Most couples end up struggling over the incompatibilities throughout the life of their relationships (with varying degrees of success). In the abstract, it is easy to suggest that the higher interest partner should conform their desires to the nature and degree of sexual interaction that is naturally supplied by their partner. But, love and desire are tricky emotions and, despite what society would have one expect, they are not integrally linked. Otherwise, her love for him (if she ever really loved him) would naturally cause her sexual interest to align with his. Society doesn't expect this of the lower interest partner, but society does expect the higher interest partner to adjust downward their expectations in the name of love.

 

In my experience, love will not cause sexual desire to either increase or abate (although anger and hatred can certainly reduce or eliminate sexual interest in a partner).

 

I do not know and cannot tell what is in her heart. In my opinion, her words are inconsistent with her actions. In my experience, actions are a better indicator of true feelings than are words (particularly where relationship issues are concerned). She has stayed with him for years and has dabbled in non-monogamous behavior. So, there has to be something good in the relationship and she cannot have an absolute emotional bar to non-monogamous behavior.

 

She is looking for people to tell her that she should not swing--OK, she should not swing.

 

But, and this is my point, as much as we may think he should act differently, it is very likely that he will not be willing to abandon the non-monogamous behavior. So, her decision to abandon swinging will likely equate to a decision to tank the relationship--because, at this point, swinging (or non-monogamous sex) appears to be a relationship imperative to him.

 

It is conceivable (notwithstanding what she has written) that ending the swinging is not a relationship imperative to her. It is possible that stopping the swinging is merely a preference--and that she is just put out that he wants to continue when she is indifferent to it. She may be responding solely to society's expectations that he modify his behavior to meet with her expectations. And, while this may be society's expectation, (again) in my experience, it is nowhere near this easy.

 

I do not know whether her angst is truly the result of a complete inability to enjoy swinging or her unwillingness to enjoy swinging when her husband is resistant to giving it up at her request. If we believe what she has written, then it is the former. But, I am at least leaving open the possibility of the latter. If the latter is the case, then it would be (and has been) my advice to her to consider carefully her options.

[Guest screaminggood]

OP: I agree with the observations that counseling would be best in your situation.

 

I also agree with several observations that there's no way to know/expect your husband to go to counseling. However, you can see a therapist by yourself if he refuses to attend and get some help in deciding what you want to do.

[CXXC 435]

OP: I agree with the observations that counseling would be best in your situation.

 

I also agree with several observations that there's no way to know/expect your husband to go to counseling. However, you can see a therapist by yourself if he refuses to attend and get some help in deciding what you want to do.

 

Screeminggood has basically said all that can be stated with any intelligence at this point. We, as helpful as we wish to be, do not have enough of the "Facts" to instruct or suggest further.

 

However, I will argue one point regarding the different levels of libido and matching them. In any relationship, if the desire to succeed is strong, both parties will strive to meet somewhere in the middle. Compromise is the key to survival in any relationship. BOTH parties must compromise.

[NotSorry 155]

We're not big on ultimatums in the NotSorry household.

If you both truly want to make it work, you can... ultimatums destroy that mentality.

 

If he was respectful of you and your feelings, would you be ok with swinging / dating separately?

 

~mr not sorry

[ktimephoenix 156]

 

In my experience, actions are a better indicator of true feelings than are words (particularly where relationship issues are concerned). She has stayed with him for years and has dabbled in non-monogamous behavior. So, there has to be something good in the relationship and she cannot have an absolute emotional bar to non-monogamous behavior.

 

 

the rest just hurt my head to read, this comment however, is a big red flag to me.

 

if actions are a bigger indicator than words, therefore if you stay with a partner, you must really love the relationship (or it has more good than bad in it)... What of victims of domestic (physical OR emotional) abuse? many find it hard to leave the relationship out of fear, or other "warped" emotions. no one would insist that a woman being beaten by her husband shouldn't walk out when she finally works up the courage to confront the problem, or leave him, because "she has stayed with him for years"...

 

She may not be apposed to non-monogomous relationships with the right person/at the right time in her life etc... or perhaps she dabbled to satisfy a curiosity??? i mean would you tell me that there is no way in hell i hate the taste of avocado, because i've eaten it before?

[PB&J 1,086]

Isn't this what it boils down to?

 

If she won't/can't continue swinging, for her own perfectly valid reasons, then she has a right to stop, and should. It's not fair to her, or their swinging partners, to continue, no matter what her husband thinks. It's her decision to make.

 

Then it becomes a question of what happens next:

 

If she is willing to let him continue as a single male "with permission", and he's happy with that, then that's the way to go.

 

If she wants him to stop too, then he has to decide if the swinging or the marriage is more important to him. And that is his decision to make.

 

But I cannot see how any compromise over her having sex outside of her marriage is possible or advisable. And what's with those women who could see that she wasn't enjoying herself- and went ahead anyway?

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

SpyBunny, you two need to have a serious discussion about much more than swinging. From all that you've said in this thread, this issue goes much deeper, the swinging issue is just where it's all being played out at the moment.

 

Over the last 20 years of bad communication and passive/aggressive back and forth, neither of you have been able to really communicate openly and honestly and say what you feel without worry of retaliation from the other one.

 

You both have different needs/ feelings and you are trying to resolve them in different ways. It sounds to me like he's using swinging (the ability to be with others) as a band-aid for your marriage. To HIM it does feel like you are closer after wards and maybe, just maybe, because you've been having so many more discussion about this one issue (whether getting the outcome he wants or not) he feels you are talking more therefore things are better. But, it's the opposite for you because you feel you are being asked to do something you don't want to do.

 

Until you can resolve these communication issues, swinging is not for you. Ask him to put the swinging (all of it) on hold and spend some time really focusing on your marriage. Get into counseling and learn how to talk to each other and really listen to each other. Only after you do that should you consider swinging and the discussion of wanting different things within that. It's not uncommon for each half of a couple to feel comfortable swinging in different ways, and if they really have a strong relationship and can communicate with each other they will find a happy medium and both be considerate of each others feelings along the way.

 

At this point, neither of you FEEL like the other one is considering your feelings, and neither of you are being truly honest with the other. Fix that first. Get counseling together, learn how to communicate.

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

the rest just hurt my head to read, this comment however, is a big red flag to me.

 

if actions are a bigger indicator than words, therefore if you stay with a partner, you must really love the relationship (or it has more good than bad in it)... What of victims of domestic (physical OR emotional) abuse? many find it hard to leave the relationship out of fear, or other "warped" emotions. no one would insist that a woman being beaten by her husband shouldn't walk out when she finally works up the courage to confront the problem, or leave him, because "she has stayed with him for years"...

I believe you are comparing Apples to asteroids!!

 

From my armchair, Stockholm syndrome/learned helplessness/battered womens syndrome are polar opposites of (the POSTED PERCEPTION of) what's happening here.

 

She may not be apposed to non-monogomous relationships with the right person/at the right time in her life etc... or perhaps she dabbled to satisfy a curiosity??? i mean would you tell me that there is no way in hell i hate the taste of avocado, because i've eaten it before?

Once, twice, thrice, No, but over the course of 6+ years yes there has to be SOMETHING inviting, that's what Ms. Katie is saying...

 

I have asked him previously which was more important to him- me or the freedom to have a variety of swing partners. He won't answer that because he feels I'm painting him into a corner to say he'll drop it for me- and claims he could easily ask the reverse: if H was the most important thing to me, then I would be willing to do this. Thing is- that's exactly why I've done it this long (6 or 7 years), and I can't anymore. We're at a stalemate- has anyone else had these kind of discussions/impasses? Am I making too much of the whole situation and should just go along with it like I have been?

[traveling cpl 59]

A good counsellor wouldn't place their values on anyone. Its not the counsellors job to find your answer for you, that's a 'busy body approach' and everybody has opinions, but a counsellor is there to assist you in making/finding your answer by walking with you, not ahead. I don't dispute some counsellors maybe that way but they are not good. Spybunny has selected an opition for her future life but are the reasons the 'full' or 'right' ones. Only Spybunny knows that.

[ktimephoenix 156]

I believe you are comparing Apples to asteroids!!

 

From my armchair, Stockholm syndrome/learned helplessness/battered womens syndrome are polar opposites of (the POSTED PERCEPTION of) what's happening here.

 

Once, twice, thrice, No, but over the course of 6+ years yes there has to be SOMETHING inviting, that's what Ms. Katie is saying...

 

how so? if the O.P's posts are truthful, the man in question has previously been controlling (both financially and emotionally).

 

could it also be that she swung for 6 years for the same reason battered women don't leave straight away? the fear of being alone is more powerful than the pain their facing in the present? again, if the O.P. is telling the truth, the "swing or separate" mantra was in place from the beginning

[SpyBunny 37]

Hello- here’s an update for anyone interested. First off, I just wanted to say that “Yes”, I viewed the option of being alone and all the associated turmoil to our family that a divorce would cause as worse than dealing with a swinging marriage that I didn’t want. Yes, I was too scared to get out. Not that I was afraid of violence- please don’t think that. I was scared about the fights regarding the kids and the marital assets, of the financial consequences, of being alone. Still scared about that but willing to face it now.

 

This weekend, I finally worked up some courage and clearly told DH that I wanted to return to a regular, traditional marriage for all the reasons previously mentioned before. I never dropped a bomb about divorce. I’m giving this one last shot- told him he didn’t have to make any decision immediately, think it over, and go ahead and f*** a few if he thought that would him decide- whether he considered it a last fling, or research to make sure he knew what he was giving up, or whatever he wanted to consider it. I told him that I honestly wouldn’t hold it against him while he decided.

 

His response: “I need variety- just like I don’t want to order the same thing all the time at a restaurant. I can tell you what you want to hear, but I can’t say that in 3 months, or 6 or 12, that I won’t reach a point where I can’t take it anymore and would have to do something about it.” So I got a cheating threat- that’s really nice.

 

Part two of the conversation: he turns it all around- this is supposedly all because of my “insecurities”. We need to “fix” those, and then return to the swinging discussion.

1) “After all, you were 100 times better when on Paxil, and REALLY need to go back on it.”

2) “After all, how many friends do you really have?” That was a low blow- I don’t have many, but the ones I do have are very dear to me.

3) “And I know you consider _______ a friend, but does she really consider you a friend back? I don’t think so” Another low blow- we are best friends and it goes both ways.

4) He wants a more active social life and I’m an impediment to that- i.e. hosting frequent get-togethers with friends and becoming regulars at a bar. I am not excited about those ideas but I am willing to work at it. Family circumstances haven’t been such that we had much time for those and I admit I don’t do well with people I don’t know. Not that he is willing to give up swinging if I become a more frequent partier...

 

Yes, I am a quiet, shy person, a homebody, and don’t do well in large groups. I am fairly easily intimidated and a worrier. I have never been a social butterfly and never will be. DH isn’t real good at being social either- we’re both big-time introverts and he finds that incredibly frustrating about himself. I’m happy with myself, my friends and family, not with my marriage. OK, fine, DH will come tell my counselor just what he told me. She will hear his point of view so she hears more than just mine. But I’m not going back on meds, I can tell you that right now. I’ve already discussed that with the therapist, and she agrees they are not needed. We all have our issues, and I realize this whole thing was a diversionary tactic. But I still manage to fall for it at the time- I was a mess by the time we were done talking. His final response: I am so happy that you are taking my concerns about you seriously. Gee, thanks...

 

I pointed out to DH that even if we “fix” me, we still have the whole swinging issue. “We’ll discuss that later”, he says. I’m not changing my mind, I won’t. We may end up divorced yet, but at least I will be able to say I tried. Thanks to everybody who listened.

[Speed & Trixie 163]

It sounds like he's giving YOU the ultimatum: either accept his "swinging" or he will eventually cheat on you.

 

I can't tell you what to do, but you sound like an intelligent woman who has really been working on herself. You deserve better than this. Good luck to you, sweetie, and please keep us posted.

 

Hugs,

Trixie

[slevin 1,374]

I can't tell you what to do either, but I can tell you what I'd do: leave. Actually, thats not true. I'd tell him to leave

[SW_PA_Couple 4,024]

I have a strong feeling you will find your happier place, good woman. Whatever you do, do it for yourself and your children.

 

~Michael

[crazykatie 139]

I never dropped a bomb about divorce. I’m giving this one last shot-

 

I understand that you think that you are giving your relationship "one last shot" by avoiding talking about divorce. But, in my opinion, what you are really doing is giving him one more chance to disappoint you so that you can justify a decision to leave. If that is what you need, so be it. But, he has made clear (now, apparently on several occasions) that he is not giving up the non-monogamous behavior so long as he thinks he can have both it and the relationship. If you want him to make a decision--you or swinging--you need to make clear that is the choice. Or, you may have already decided that you no longer want a relationship with him. If that is the case, then it is difficult to see why you haven't taken the necessary steps to end it. I really do not understand what you think time is going to buy you--other than exposure to more pressure and more misery.

 

I’m happy with myself, my friends and family, not with my marriage....But I’m not going back on meds, I can tell you that right now. I’ve already discussed that with the therapist, and she agrees they are not needed.

 

You are right not to go back on the meds just to placate your husband. If you are truly happy with everything but your marriage, then there is no reason to continue to delay taking action.

 

We all have our issues, and I realize this whole thing was a diversionary tactic. But I still manage to fall for it at the time-

 

You choose to expose yourself to his continuing pressure by not being definitive concerning your resolve to leave rather than go back.

 

I pointed out to DH that even if we “fix” me, we still have the whole swinging issue. “We’ll discuss that later”, he says.

 

You are right to see his actions as suspect. He wants to move you to a space he wants you to be in and is willing to do it in small steps. The truth is that people change. You have changed and he has changed and it is possible that you now each want irreconcilably different things. Temporizing will not make things better--it will only expose you to continued pressure to alter your thinking.

 

I’m not changing my mind, I won’t. We may end up divorced yet, but at least I will be able to say I tried.

 

Tried what? --to change him? Tried how? --by indicating a preference not to go back to the way things were? You cannot change him. The question that remains unanswered is whether he will select you over the swinging. A second question that remains unanswered is whether you want the relationship under any circumstances.

 

Continued temporizing is (in my opinion) not trying anything.

[SpyBunny 37]

Hi CrazyKatie-

 

I didn't want to use divorce as a threat. I finally told him what I needed and why, and if he accepts that, it's because he values our marriage, not out of fear. I figured when I mention divorce, it won't be open for discussion, it'll be an announcement only. Maybe that was the wrong tactic, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

 

I thought it was a small step forward that he is willing to even step foot inside a counselor's office with me. Maybe the counselor will be able to help facilitate a more open dialogue between us, maybe not. I have to be able to say I tried it.

 

Also, I have been wanting to have this discussion for almost a year now. However, my father-in-law died suddenly in October, with a tremendous amount of family trauma as a result (I didn't want to add to DH's pain by forcing the discussion or leaving while he was so down). Things are finally calming down a little, and he was bringing it up, so this month seemed like a good time. We'll see how this plays out over the next couple weeks, and I'll be able to make a final decision.

[Guest screaminggood]

Spybunny,

 

I believe you did well to exclude the "d word" from your conversation. Most people would here it and immediately shut down, so you did a great job of trying to keep the discussion open to both you and your spouse.

 

I'm glad to hear that he's agreed to go to therapy with you. Again, you're correct...You shouldn't be on meds you don't need, and a professional can help you learn to communicate together. Remember, if he decides not to go, you should still go without him.

 

Take care of yourself and be patient with yourself! It's taken a year to get to this point, you don't have to make any decisions quickly. The correct decisions will become clear to you as you work it out in your head.

[crazykatie 139]

I wish you well and hope you find happiness. It is great that he has decided to join you in counseling. I suggest that you move quickly to arrange your first sessions. I still doubt that he will stop pressuring you until he knows that you are prepared to leave the relationship rather than return to swinging. But, perhaps the counselor will be able to facilitate your exploration of your views and needs in this area and assist you in communicating your feelings openly and honestly to your partner.

[SpyBunny 37]

Hi-

 

I'm not sure if anyone remembers this thread from last year, I was upset about swinging and thought maybe someone here could explain something that I was missing or not grasping or help me see why this was so important to my husband. I thought I would post an update.

 

Mr Bunny and I attempted counseling last fall, as several posters suggested, but it was a short-lived and ultimately a failure. He canceled more appointments than he attended. I left him Thanksgiving weekend of last year, and our divorce was final two months ago. We get along ok for purposes of co-parenting.

 

Mine is the typical cautionary example of not pushing. It took two years for him to talk me into this- he wore me down with the pressure and a divorce threat prior. He's very used to getting his way, ever since he was a little boy, and in hindsight, I can see the patterns now. There's a big difference between a couple taking two years to really discuss the idea of swinging because they both want it versus a couple where one partner has to convince the other. He tried the tactic that I've seen mentioned here- point out the possibility of pleasure for me in this deal. "Here's the chance for you to f*** another guy SpyBunny, doesn't that excite you?" My immediate thought which I told him- "I don't WANT another guy!" He honestly couldn't grasp that- why wouldn't I want to sleep with someone else if he says it's ok, after all, he would jump at the chance. He really couldn't understand that I'm happiest sharing my sexuality with just one special man.

 

One other thing that has stuck in my mind is a conversation I had with my ex prior to posting on here- and I don't remember if I put this in a prior post- was the last time he spontaneously told me he loved me. This was in February of '09. I had come back from a night out with a single male. This started off all wrong- the reason for going is I learned that acting out sexually gets positive reaction from him, it wasn't because I really wanted to f*** another guy. Anyways- I wasn't happy when I got home because I felt really used by this guy. I told my ex at this point that I wanted to stop because I felt like a hooker who was too stupid to charge. He looks me in the eye and says "but I love you when you do that! It was just a bad night, just get back out there and try again!"

 

Anyways, to me that conversation is indicative of the mind-games my H used to get what he wanted. I tell him I feel like a stupid hooker, and he says he loves me for it. No wonder I was so messed up.

 

In counseling, my ex explained that what he really wanted was a wife who could speak up for herself and not be afraid of the process of resolving difference of opinions. It turns out that he really couldn't handle a wife speaking out. When i did speak out at the counseling, he told me privately afterward that I wasn't really that good.

 

In summary, it comes down to control issues, immaturity and not listening. Just be sure this is something you BOTH really want.

 

Take cared everybody. Thank you for listening, both now and last year. You have been a great help in helping me consider what I needed to do.

 

Hugs- Bunny

[Sweet.Pea 15]

I was not signed up here when you first described your situation but I recognize almost everything you wrote into today's message. I too divorced a man who was after me for years to do the swing thing. I'm not the asexual creature he ultimately accused me of being. I've learned through counseling that his view of sex is distorted. It is an encouragement to me to read that you got through it. I'm still working though my situation. I thank you for telling this story.

[Swing*8701 887]

Here's to you never being a man's 'doormat' ever again.--- Susan