She broke rules. I felt betrayed. Am I Wrong?

[NorthLaCpl 99]

My girlfriend and I have been together for 2 years now and have enjoyed a wonderful relationship. We love each other and communicate very well. Recently during some pillow talk I mentioned that I sometimes found it hot to think of watching her have sex. She was shocked and surprised that I would be okay with it, but to make a long story short, she decided she would like to see me with another woman and this was something worth exploring together, so we decided to go to an on premises club and see what happened.

 

Before going in we made the following rules:

1) No kissing or dancing with other partners (We felt that was something reserved just for each other)

2) Condoms would be used, even for oral sex.

3) Either of us could say no at any time and everything stops.

4) Preserving each others feelings was paramount, if one or the other is uncomfortable, we back away.

5) And full sex with anyone else would be decided and discussed on the spot, and agreed upon before proceeding.

 

Now, I do realize that probably looks like some rookie rules, and that's because they are. We were determined to make sure nothing hurt our relationship and nothing came between us.

 

So, it's a Saturday night and we are at the club and have been fooling around with each other. My girlfriend was very open and didn't care who saw what. I realized then she was more comfortable than I was right off the bat. Then we ended up hooking up with another couple for a few minutes, this consisted of my girlfriend going down on the other girl while we men watched.

 

Well then later we met a very attractive couple in the hall. We talked a bit and it was very clear that my GF was attracted to them both. So we went to a room and without any discussion at all, both women set on the bed and started fondling. Meanwhile the other husband told me, we are old hands at this and just a word of advice. This is all about the women getting pleasure. So we just stand back until called in, but I don't touch your woman and you don't touch mine unless we both agree. I said okay, I like that rule.

 

So soon after my GF is going down on his wife, and she says come on over here and get inside her. So I tried, but for what ever reason, I was soft as a noodle. I just couldn't get hard no matter what I did, and mean while the other guy has moved up and is caressing his wife while my GF went down on her with gusto. Then my GF flipped over on her back and tried to guide me into her while her and the other woman kissed, and as this happened, her husband moved up and started screwing his wife while both women kissed and caressed each other. And all the while, I couldn't get hard. So this to me is what's critical. I asked my GF, "Do you want him?" And she said, "No, I want only you." So I said look, let me go pee and maybe that will help me get hard. I'll be right back. So I did, and was only gone a few minutes, but when I returned, both women are on their knees in front of him and my GF is giving him head. Just as soon as I walked up, he pulls his pants up and they both leave the room. My GF stands up and said, I tried it and I see now that I want only you.

 

I was very hurt, I felt I'd been played and betrayed. She broke the condom rule and just about every rule we'd made. We left the club soon after and when I could finally bring myself to discuss it with he, her response was that she wasn't trying to deceive me or do something without me knowing. She just felt that was what we'd gone in the room for and all was okay. And she claims to not remember me asking her if she wanted him and her reply, although she does remember everything said between us and this couple leading up to the event. When asked why she remembers some but not the most critical question, she says it's because she'd drank way to much and everything was a blur. That she would not have done it had she not drank so much, and I can't accept that as an excuse.

 

Am I being a prude or totally naive here? I'm really trying to work though this.

[LFM2 1,482]

First of all, to the Swingers Board. You've come to a great place!

 

Let me start with your question:

Am I being a prude or totally naive here?

You own your own feelings. What you feel is what you feel. But lets try to put your feelings in perspective.

 

Before you do anything else regarding clubs and swinging, don't do anything at all except communicate with each other. You two need to reconnect before either of you are ready for more play. There are definite issues between you two that need to be discussed.

 

Before going in we made the following rules:

1) No kissing or dancing with other partners (We felt that was something reserved just for each other)

2) Condoms would be used, even for oral sex.

3) Either of us could say no at any time and everything stops.

4) Preserving each others feelings was paramount, if one or the other is uncomfortable, we back away.

5) And full sex with anyone else would be decided and discussed on the spot, and agreed upon before proceeding.

 

Good rules. Every couple should have some boundaries or rules that they feel are pertinent to their situation and relationship. Some couples have no rules because of their comfort zones. It's all about what you're comfortable with and what you're both willing to do or not do.

 

So I did, and was only gone a few minutes, but when I returned, both women are on their knees in front of him and my GF is giving him head. Just as soon as I walked up, he pulls his pants up and they both leave the room. My GF stands up and said, I tried it and I see now that I want only you. When asked why she remembers some but not the most critical question, she says it's because she'd drank way to much and everything was a blur. That she would not have done it had she not drank so much, and I can't accept that as an excuse.

 

Now, personally, we like alcohol. But, we don't drink enough to get silly. We don't need alcohol to cloud our senses or judgment. We've found that those who do drink a bit too much usually bring drama to the party and we don't want that. We love to have sex with others and we do it for fun. If the other couple is going to have drama, we usually steer clear. There are a plethora of threads here about the dangers of drinking and playing. It's been proven several times that swinging and over imbibing just don't mix.

 

We agree, alcohol is not an excuse to break boundaries. Giving head without a condom broke that boundary. You two need to decide if you can get past this indiscretion. (this is where all that great communication you said you have comes in) Did the heat of the moment just catch up to her and she couldn't help herself? Is she apologetic? Remorseful? Some couples really mess up at something. Not really meaning to, but it does happens.

 

I'm also curious if you're not a bit angry that the other couple left early not giving you a chance to get in on the action. I mean you leave for a couple of minutes to use the restroom, you come back and they're dressed and ready to go. Just wondering if this also isn't escalating the situation? I apologize in advance if this isn't the case at all.

[mmm_yaya 15]

Before going in we made the following rules:

1) No kissing or dancing with other partners (We felt that was something reserved just for each other)

 

No dancing with others, but screwing others is OK? Now that's a rule I've never come across.

[NorthLaCpl 99]

No dancing with others, but screwing others is OK? Now that's a rule I've never come across.

 

Well oddly enough, that was her rule. And maybe that is what led me to the misconception that we would proceed slowly rather than 0 to wide open in one swoop. But I see your point, it does seem silly, thus my comment about our being rookies.

[NorthLaCpl 99]

Now, personally, we like alcohol. But, we don't drink enough to get silly. We don't need alcohol to cloud our senses or judgment. We've found that those who do drink a bit too much usually bring drama to the party and we don't want that. We love to have sex with others and we do it for fun. If the other couple is going to have drama, we usually steer clear. There are a plethora of threads here about the dangers of drinking and playing. It's been proven several times that swinging and over imbibing just don't mix.

 

We agree, alcohol is not an excuse to break boundaries. Giving head without a condom broke that boundary. You two need to decide if you can get past this indiscretion. (this is where all that great communication you said you have comes in) Did the heat of the moment just catch up to her and she couldn't help herself? Is she apologetic? Remorseful? Some couples really mess up at something. Not really meaning to, but it does happens.

 

I'm also curious if you're not a bit angry that the other couple left early not giving you a chance to get in on the action. I mean you leave for a couple of minutes to use the restroom, you come back and they're dressed and ready to go. Just wondering if this also isn't escalating the situation? I apologize in advance if this isn't the case at all.

 

Thanks for the welcome and the great reply to my questions. Clearly you get that this has caused us a huge amount of pain so I am very thankful for your help and the sharing of your experiences. And as to the alcohol, we can chalk that up as a lesson learned. No doubt that must be used in great moderation with this type of environment.

 

One thing I've learned since posting my questions is that her and I had a totally different understanding of the rules. In her mind, the very act of going into that room with the couple meant everything was consented to and we both had full permission to go all the way with the other couple. Her understanding was that if anywhere along the way one of us wanted to stop it, we could.

 

My understanding was we go in and take things in steps. As in she starts out playing with the other woman and then we decide what part the men play, which is pretty much what this other guy told me, or that's how I took it when he said we don't touch each other's woman until we both agree to it. So hell, maybe I am a prude and maybe my GF just took the more traditional approach much faster than I could?

 

And no, it doesn't dismiss the fact that she went forward while I was out of the room, that was one rule broke, and she did it without a condom, another rule broke. So I'm left having to accept her excuse that it wouldn't have happened had she not drank to excess.

 

As to what part the other couples leaving played in my anger, you're right, it plays a big part but not in the way you think. In my mind, when I returned and saw her going down on him, first of all I knew he'd broken the agreement we had just made and I felt I'd been played. And their abrupt departure just added to my feeling they knew they were guilty so they fled the scene.

 

Then seeing her breaking the rules of using a condom, no action unless we are both in the room, and the big one, no action at all without permission was the deal breaker. I felt played by all involved. But now with her explanation that she thought she had permission does change things in my mind. Before I felt she behaved as a slut and used the excuse of being drunk as a get out of jail free card to justify her actions . But as per her explanation, she thought she had permission but went further and faster than she would have had she not been drinking.

 

So as to who's view point on the rules is the more correct or more realistic one, I really don't know. I do know I feel dishonored that our agreements were not enough of a priority for her to curb her drinking and maintain control, especially considering this was our first time out and such an important leap. But as is, this has caused such a huge rift that it will probably be our first and last experience with the lifestyle. And our trust on all levels is damaged, mine for the reasons I've stated. And hers in she felt free to do this and then got snapped back. It's kind of become a lose/lose situation.

 

On edit:

But that said, she is very, apologetic and very, very remorseful. In fact she's devastated. And when I thought she had played me, I really didn't care. But with this new information as to her understanding of the rules, now I'm left trying to process it all and see what part I played in the events. I guess we didn't know it could get so complicated so fast.

[sweet_tna 680]

I'm glad to hear you've already done some talking, that your GF seems genuinely sorry for breaking the rules (even if due to a misunderstanding) and that you seem to believe her.

 

As to whose viewpoint is right? Well, that doesn't really matter since what's done is done and the more important issue is healing the hurts between you (whether you decide to continue in the lifestyle or not).

 

You two need to keep talking about your evening, and how you feel about what happened both good and bad. Do either of ya'll still want to persue the lifestyle? If so, what activities/situations do you want to try?

 

Best of luck to ya'll, whatever you decide.

 

=)

[LFM2 1,482]

One thing I've learned since posting my questions is that her and I had a totally different understanding of the rules. In her mind, the very act of going into that room with the couple meant everything was consented to and we both had full permission to go all the way with the other couple. Her understanding was that if anywhere along the way one of us wanted to stop it, we could.

My understanding was we go in and take things in steps. As in she starts out playing with the other woman and then we decide what part the men play, which is pretty much what this other guy told me, or that's how I took it when he said we don't touch each other's woman until we both agree to it. So hell, maybe I am a prude and maybe my GF just took the more traditional approach much faster than I could?

Clearly, you two weren't on the same page with your own rules. You each interpreted the rules to meet your own needs. You can't fault her if the communication was not what it should have been and she went a little faster than you thought she should and she can't fault you for being angry/hurt.

 

Sounds like she had the pedal to the metal and you were just kinda putt-puttin, keeping it slow. Do I have that right? Most of us here believe that you should only go as fast as the slowest person. If you're just feeling out the water and not quite ready to jump in, your GF should be going only as fast as you are. Does that make sense?

 

So as to who's view point on the rules is the more correct or more realistic one, I really don't know. I do know I feel dishonored that our agreements were not enough of a priority for her to curb her drinking and maintain control, especially considering this was our first time out and such an important leap. But as is, this has caused such a huge rift that it will probably be our first and last experience with the lifestyle. And our trust on all levels is damaged, mine for the reasons I've stated. And hers in she felt free to do this and then got snapped back. It's kind of become a lose/lose situation.

Do you want to work through this? You both jumped into this without really communicating the rules thoroughly. Communication is so much more than just talking. It's reading your partners body language, reading eyes, and not just listening to what the other person has to say but really LISTENING to what your partner has to say. It's really getting to know your other partner. Telling each other everything. Communication is being so honest it hurts.

 

It's totally up to you if this is your first and last time swinging. Some couples are not cut out to swing, and that's OK. If you can work through this one-time incident, can communicate more effectively the rules and be totally honest with each other, be honest in your observations and feelings and most importantly, maintain respect for each other and your partners -- swinging can be done successfully.

 

As far as the drinking... I can't help but think you might have also known she'd had too much. You were with her and know her the best. Did you think she'd had too much? Most people lose all inhibitions with drinking. Some call it liquid courage. If you really need to drink to excess to have fun, you're not ready to play with others.

 

On edit:

But that said, she is very, apologetic and very, very remorseful. In fact she's devastated. And when I thought she had played me, I really didn't care. But with this new information as to her understanding of the rules, now I'm left trying to process it all and see what part I played in the events. I guess we didn't know it could get so complicated so fast.

You bet it can. But the greatest problem I see with you two is your communication skills. You both played a major role in this failure of communication. If I'm reading this right, it does sound like you both had different takes on what your rules were, in addition, the drinking made for a bad night. This can be corrected. Rules were broken, but not all is lost. Talk over coffee at the kitchen table. Without accusing, talk about how it made you feel, let her talk about how she feels and go from there. Get it all out in the open and see if this can't be corrected, and move on. I really wish you both luck. Talking is easy. Communication isn't so much.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

One piece of advice that I read recently in a great book on couple's communication is that you have to get over wanting to be right and decide what is more important, being right or being happy.

 

This isn't about deciding who's right or wrong here, it's about communicating and getting past what happened and working on making sure that before you go out again you have a set of rules that you both completely understand and agree to. Consider it a learning experience. Yes, some things went wrong but it was more due to miscommunication than misleading (at least on her part).

 

I am more bothered by this other couple's role in this situation than her own actions. I do feel you were played. His comments that everything must be agreed on, etc, yet he didn't make sure YOU were ok with him fucking your wife? he waited until you had left the room to initiate something with her? And (I'm sorry but) all I could think was - damn that dude was quick! You were gone just a few minutes and he'd already finished? Geez. But, then they leave the room as soon as you walk back in. That's not cool.

 

My advice for you in the future. Set some new rules that you both agree to and that make sense for you. Make sure you both understand what you mean in regards to the rules so that miscommunications like this don't happen again. If you mean once you walk into a room with a couple all is game then you both need to know that, if you mean something else, you both need to know that.

 

I would say this, if she feels she doesn't want to screw a guy other than you then you would simplify things alot by setting the rule that you will BOTH only have sex with each other. That it will only be soft-swap with other couples (whatever you are ok with within those boundaries). However, setting it up to ONLY be soft-swap AND to say that you won't kiss or dance with another couple, is some pretty tight boundaries. If it's only going to be girl/girl then make that agreement. Whatever the agreements are, make sure you both understand them and agree to them.

 

While we can't judge what's right for you, I would suggest that you come back here again and talk about what agreements you do come to (and spend some time reading some of the threads in the boundaries archive) mainly to get an idea of whether or not those boundaries/rules are really workable and what the likelihood is of you finding people who will play within those boundaries.

[NorthLaCpl 99]

Clearly, you two weren't on the same page with your own rules. You each interpreted the rules to meet your own needs. You can't fault her if the communication was not what it should have been and she went a little faster than you thought she should and she can't fault you for being angry/hurt.

 

And I have come to this same understanding as well as my fault in the matter. I've come to understand that while we discussed our fantasies in great detail, we failed to go into that same level of detail in mapping out how we make said fantasies a reality.

 

Sounds like she had the pedal to the metal and you were just kinda putt-puttin, keeping it slow. Do I have that right? Most of us here believe that you should only go as fast as the slowest person. If you're just feeling out the water and not quite ready to jump in, your GF should be going only as fast as you are. Does that make sense?

 

Yep, you've got the picture. And to be fair to her, the night before we'd met a couple and during this encounter, my GF and the other woman played while me and the other guy just hung back. And on this instance she dove right in so to speak and of course I had no issues with it. This was her first time with a woman and I wanted her to enjoy. So maybe since we had this encounter behind us, she saw no difference in sex rather it is her and a woman or her and a man, thus her rate of speed and inhibition?

 

 

Do you want to work through this? You both jumped into this without really communicating the rules thoroughly. Communication is so much more than just talking. It's reading your partners body language, reading eyes, and not just listening to what the other person has to say but really LISTENING to what your partner has to say. It's really getting to know your other partner. Telling each other everything. Communication is being so honest it hurts.

 

Since learning her interpretation of the rules, I have decided I want to work though it. And you're point on communication being more than just talking is well taken. On this night, once she "engaged" she wasn't communicating with me at all. Her and this other woman were all over each other, then when I left the room, he was quickly added to the mix, so in all this, she was totally obvious to me. Which was one of my points when we talked later. I felt I had no chance to communicate with her once this started, she was just in the zone so to speak

 

As far as the drinking... I can't help but think you might have also known she'd had too much. You were with her and know her the best. Did you think she'd had too much? Most people lose all inhibitions with drinking. Some call it liquid courage. If you really need to drink to excess to have fun, you're not ready to play with others.

 

Actually I didn't get that she'd drank too much. She'd had about 8 Guinness beers over a period of about 3 or 4 hours, there was no staggering, no slurred speech, no indication at all that she was even tipsy. But as it is, to get past this I have to make this decision: I have do decided that yes, she'd drank just enough to lower her inhibitions to the point that she did what she did with me out of the room. But it still pisses me off because in my heart, I think alcohol simply brings out what a person wants to do to begin with. Or put another way, what she wanted to do was more important than what I thought about it.

 

 

You bet it can. But the greatest problem I see with you two is your communication skills. You both played a major role in this failure of communication. If I'm reading this right, it does sound like you both had different takes on what your rules were, in addition, the drinking made for a bad night. This can be corrected. Rules were broken, but not all is lost. Talk over coffee at the kitchen table. Without accusing, talk about how it made you feel, let her talk about how she feels and go from there. Get it all out in the open and see if this can't be corrected, and move on. I really wish you both luck. Talking is easy. Communication isn't so much.

 

You're right, we both played a major roll in the break down, and when we dove deeper into the subject she brought up a good point. She knew I liked the idea of seeing her enjoy herself with someone else, and in her mind, that was that. And open and shut issue. She felt that gave her the green light to just flat out go for it, to her there was no "pace". And that's fair enough, I had no idea she took it like that. As I told her, at a different pace I'd have most likely agreed to everything. But as things went, I barely recognized who she was.

 

Thanks again for your well thought out replies, it really has helped me see both sides of this and give me some level of faith that we can work though it.

[NorthLaCpl 99]

One piece of advice that I read recently in a great book on couple's communication is that you have to get over wanting to be right and decide what is more important, being right or being happy.

 

That's the one thing I have figured out, and I've chosen to go for happy.

 

This isn't about deciding who's right or wrong here, it's about communicating and getting past what happened and working on making sure that before you go out again you have a set of rules that you both completely understand and agree to. Consider it a learning experience. Yes, some things went wrong but it was more due to miscommunication than misleading (at least on her part).

 

And once I figured that out, it gave me the incentive to fix this. When I thought she'd intentionally misled me, I felt betrayed and dishonored. And on this night of all nights, it would have been inexcusable. But as you say, there is a big difference in misleading and misunderstanding.

 

I am more bothered by this other couple's role in this situation than her own actions. I do feel you were played. His comments that everything must be agreed on, etc, yet he didn't make sure YOU were ok with him fucking your wife? he waited until you had left the room to initiate something with her? And (I'm sorry but) all I could think was - damn that dude was quick! You were gone just a few minutes and he'd already finished? Geez. But, then they leave the room as soon as you walk back in. That's not cool.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was played. I've searched myself for some other viable explanation for their rapid departure and not one thing comes to mind. But no, he didn't get off. When I walked in, he had his pants at his ankles with my GF going down on him. Soon as he sees me, he pulls up his pants and leaves, it happened so fast I didn't really comprehend what was happening at the time. They were just there and then they were gone. So I can only go by what was said and what I saw. We had an agreement, he broke it soon as I left the room and maybe he didn't expect me back so soon. When I came back he figured he was busted so he simply bolted.

 

My advice for you in the future. Set some new rules that you both agree to and that make sense for you. Make sure you both understand what you mean in regards to the rules so that miscommunications like this don't happen again. If you mean once you walk into a room with a couple all is game then you both need to know that, if you mean something else, you both need to know that.

 

Yeah, you get an amen for that one. It seems so simple now doesn't it. But we totally blew it when it mattered most.

 

I would say this, if she feels she doesn't want to screw a guy other than you then you would simplify things alot by setting the rule that you will BOTH only have sex with each other. That it will only be soft-swap with other couples (whatever you are ok with within those boundaries). However, setting it up to ONLY be soft-swap AND to say that you won't kiss or dance with another couple, is some pretty tight boundaries. If it's only going to be girl/girl then make that agreement. Whatever the agreements are, make sure you both understand them and agree to them.

 

We did get a lesson in these too tight boundries. The night before my gf was with another woman, and as I was close by the other woman leaned over and tried to kiss me, but as this was forbidden I didn't let her, and she clearly didn't like it. It was my first indication that as our confidence grows, our boundaries may need to loosen up a bit. And you're right, maybe we do need to refocus what we want from the lifestyle, including rather we want it at all. But I do know this, she loved being with another woman, and no matter what she may say to placate my fears, I have to believe she'll always miss that.

 

While we can't judge what's right for you, I would suggest that you come back here again and talk about what agreements you do come to (and spend some time reading some of the threads in the boundaries archive) mainly to get an idea of whether or not those boundaries/rules are really workable and what the likelihood is of you finding people who will play within those boundaries.

 

I've taken your advise on reading others boundaries. And I do want to thank you for taking the time to give me your in site. It is of great help to me and us.

[NorthLaCpl 99]

.........You two need to keep talking about your evening, and how you feel about what happened both good and bad. Do either of ya'll still want to persue the lifestyle? If so, what activities/situations do you want to try?

 

Best of luck to ya'll, whatever you decide.

 

=)

 

I think this is good advice and I have tried to broach the subject. But for now her emotions are a little raw and that's understandable. But thanks for helping me remain open minded. I can't say it's been easy.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was played. I've searched myself for some other viable explanation for their rapid departure and not one thing comes to mind. But no, he didn't get off. When I walked in, he had his pants at his ankles with my GF going down on him. Soon as he sees me, he pulls up his pants and leaves, ...

 

This part keeps leaving me confused. I guess the first time I read it (because of what you went on to say) I thought she had told you later that they'd had sex and what you'd walked in on was her blowing him (or cleaning him up) afterward.

 

I take it from reading this the second time that what you actually walked in on was them having sex?

[NorthLaCpl 99]

This part keeps leaving me confused. I guess the first time I read it (because of what you went on to say) I thought she had told you later that they'd had sex and what you'd walked in on was her blowing him (or cleaning him up) afterward.

 

I take it from reading this the second time that what you actually walked in on was them having sex?

 

No, when I walked out it was girl/girl action, then when I walked back in, she was blowing him. So there was no intercourse, but I have to believe had I took longer to get back there would have been. But I don't think it matters, I see no difference between a blow job and intercourse. It's still sex.

[knb2004 364]

I agree with much of what's been said. Not everything, but most of it. That said:

 

1) No kissing or dancing with other partners (We felt that was something reserved just for each other)

 

Many newbies try the no kissing rule. It usually lasts about 30 seconds in the real world. Kissing and sex go together like peas and carrots and sometimes you find it's happening before you even realize it. We literally had one couple tell us no kissing, and within 60 seconds they had both violated their own rule.

 

The no dancing thing is odd, and IMO very hard to even accomplish short of skipping the dance floor altogether, especially at an on prem club.

 

 

2) Condoms would be used, even for oral sex.

3) Either of us could say no at any time and everything stops.

4) Preserving each others feelings was paramount, if one or the other is uncomfortable, we back away.

 

Good rules, though I don't know about the condoms for oral part. Never done it, never seen it, certainly have never had anyone insist on it. I'm not telling you how to establish your own boundaries, if that is important to you, so be it, but understand it's a statistical anomaly and may (or may not) be off putting for some folks.

 

5) And full sex with anyone else would be decided and discussed on the spot, and agreed upon before proceeding.

 

Here I completely disagree with you. Never change your rules in the heat of battle, it must be discussed when you are calm, sober, and able to communicate effectively. If this rule also prohibits boy-girl oral sex that should be made explicitly clear. You may consider oral sex as sex but most of the rest of us don't, and it doesn't sound like your girlfriend did either. Had we been a potential playmates of yours, and had you presented that rule as stated here, we would assume it meant intercourse, and ONLY intercourse.

 

We also have a rule where we are both present when we are playing. That does not, however, require us to stop what we're doing just because one of us needs to go to the bathroom. You didn't ask, but for better or for worse the limp noodle thing is fairly common in swinging. It's mostly a "stage fright" deal, I wouldn't worry about it.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

No, when I walked out it was girl/girl action, then when I walked back in, she was blowing him. So there was no intercourse, but I have to believe had I took longer to get back there would have been. But I don't think it matters, I see no difference between a blow job and intercourse. It's still sex.

 

That's one area you are going to find that you differ quite a bit from most swingers. In general, soft swap/soft swinging is everything BUT intercourse. A full swap is actual intercourse - it's not a full swap without it. This one little bit of info could have been a large cause for confusion with this other couple. You didn't say how much you discussed with them regarding your own rules and boundaries, all you told us was what he said about making sure everyone was in agreement.

 

I still say that his actions didn't match his words, but I think there may have been a lot more miscommunication going on here than just between you and your girlfriend and what going into a room with another couple meant.

[Dave_kat 227]

Three things here get Dave's attention, two of which have been addressed already.

 

Of course the rules - they are your rules and we don't see any negotiating out of those, especially if they were stated as they are typed. This of course leads to the discussion of what defines sex - oral, vaginal, anal, digital, etc. So many types, so many things to discuss on that note alone that most have different ideas before things get started.

 

Second is the way things played out. We've met and tried to play with couples before where the gentleman couldn't get it up. We question if the couple you were with knew your rules before you went to play, as that is a mistake me made on our first on-premis club play many years ago. Not being up-front about the limits. As for when you came back, we'd seriously reccomend giving that some thought as well. You told her you would be just going to the bathroom - it is probably very unreasonable to think that everything is going to just stop right there and wait for your return. A little position changing will probably happen. Again we go back to what is her definition of sex....

 

Third, in this lifestyle you have to trust each other, and that is just as important as the communication piece. The "I drank too much" excuse is a first off bat to avoid a fight when something happens, yet the communication is there to get past that and into what really happened. The problem itself is expectations in our opinion. You go into a room to play some, and the guy gives you some awesome advice, that fits in well with what you're looking for. Yet you haven't taken the time to really get to know them, to know their rules, and to build a modicum of trust in them and how they are together.

 

Kudo's on jumping in - a lot of couples never make to to an on-premis club in their lives, but sometimes we have to take things slow to begin with, and try couple-couple play and the get to know you before you really go for it. Especially when just starting out. That in itself lets you find out the areas that you and your wife need to communicate more on without a big drama scene in the midst of a big party. A little drama when starting out with one couple is way different from the reputation you can earn when you try a big party.

 

Keep communicating, but you should try to have realistic expectations about rules. Your rules are your own rules, and what you both agree to, but when making them, you should be thinking of things like - how do you get a condom on a guy if you're trying to get him hard to begin with, or how do you flirt with someone if you can't go on the dancefloor with them? Some rules are literally impossible to really and truly maintain.

 

Good luck, and keep communicating.

[NorthLaCpl 99]

Thanks Dave Kat for your input. And I must agree with you on how unrealistic most of our rules seem now. But imagine two people discussing this and never even having researched it on a board like this. We were totally winging it here and what we were trying to do is keep somethings just for us and totally separate from the sex. So it was actually her that came up with the no kissing and no dancing rule. And it was also her rule to use a condom during oral sex. That said, I really have no problem believing all of these boundaries would most likely have went away with experience, but we were just babes in the woods here so to speak. And looking at it now, our jumping into an on premises club for our first time may have just put us in way over our heads.

 

You ask if we'd discussed rules or boundaries with the other couple, well no actually. We flirted a bit in the hallway and then just went to a room. And yes, I kinda thought we'd start out talking but instead, my girl friend reached over and laid a kiss on the other gal, and just like that they were rolling. And that was when he gave me his advice on how we proceed. And sadly, that was the last of any discussions. And while I do feel wronged by them, they didnt' know this was our first time, and by watching my girl friend in action, you'd have never guessed it. So there is that.

 

I still say that his actions didn't match his words, but I think there may have been a lot more miscommunication going on here than just between you and your girlfriend and what going into a room with another couple meant.

 

Julie, as I'd mentioned above, yes, there was miscommunication all the way around, or lack of communication I should say.

 

But let me say this and maybe put a finer point on why I still feel betrayed by her and by the other couple. It's the issue on the oral sex and on that point I'll just have to say I disagree with everyone here who maintains that oral sex isn't sex. While it may not be in the swinger community, it surely is to the world at large and it was to us as per our prior discussions.

 

It really broke down like this:

1) We go in the room and she and the other gal start to get it on.

2) My GF lays down beside the other gal and they started kissing. And it was then that he started doing his wife and I "tried" to do mine.

4) I ask my GF is she wants him and she says "No, I want only you." I say okay, that's how it'll be then.

5) I tell her I'm running to the rest room but will be right back.

6) I come back moments later and my GF is on her knees blowing the guy.

7) He sees me, jerks his pants up and leaves the room.

8) She jumps up, hugs me and says, "I tried it and see now that I want only you"

9) When I asked her later if she remembered bullet point # 4 she says no, yet she remembers everything else.

 

So call me a wuss if you will, but bullet points 4, 7, 8, & 9 just pegged my BS detector to the max. Because of his bolting from the room and her jumping up and not only coming to me but the first words out of her mouth, I think it indicates she knew at the time she was doing something wrong. And I think the semantics are irrelevant. We'd agreed oral was sex and we agreeded we'd both agree before it happened. I asked her if she wanted it, she clearly said no, I leave and she gets straight to it then covers it by saying she was drunk and didn't realize what she was doing.

 

So after all I've read, I do realize our rules were a bit too tight to be realistic. I realize after reading what Dave & Kat's advice that maybe jumping into a club scene was a bit much for us, or for me I should say. She was fine with it.

 

But, and this is a biggie, I still have this feeling she knew full well what she was doing and just figured screw the rules. Yes, the other couple led her into it, but I believe, hell I know, I saw her, she went very willingly and the kicker is, I don't believe she was too drunk to know she was doing something that would upset me. I think her jumping up and saying what she said to me is an indication. I think she decided to do what she wanted and blame it on a few beers and in the heat of the moment, I was really not a concern to her until I showed back up faster than expected.

 

And yeah, I know, as Dave & Kat said, it's not realistic to expect action to stop just because one person leaves the room for a few minutes. And I agree. But on the other hand, I think I deserve a bit of latitude here in that it was our very first time and we had very, very firm agreements that NOTHING new happens without both of us in the room at the time.

 

So all things considered, I still feel she's lying when she says it was the drink and the missunderstanding. I think it contributed, but I think the main thing was she just did what she wanted to do and really wasn't thinking about the consequences at the time. Or put another way, during that brief period of time, "WE" were not a priority to her, what she wanted was the priority.

[Dave_kat 227]

all things considered, I still feel she's lying when she says it was the drink and the missunderstanding. I think it contributed, but I think the main thing was she just did what she wanted to do and really wasn't thinking about the consequences at the time. Or put another way, during that brief period of time, "WE" were not a priority to her, what she wanted was the priority.

 

Dave here - There is a terrible truth in there. When it boils down to it, isn't pleasurable sex somewhat about yourself? We go through our lives seeking enjoyment, fulfillment, pleasure. We seek lovers who give that to us. We can be great lovers, but being that is one way to bring back our partners for repeated encounters - we make them feel great, they make us feel great. We remain with someone for love, but ultimately it boils down to our own pleasure.

 

Alcohol will lower our resistance to trying things, you don't have to be drunk to go there either. Dave before a couple of beers is quieter and more reserved. After a couple of beers with friends, the ladies around us all know to tie their bras in knots. And he is by no means drunk - he is simply relaxed and playing around.

 

While alcohol is not an excuse, getting lost in the moment and not thinking about rules and regulations and discussions is quite possible. Getting overly excited is quite possible. A new situation and letting go might push some things out of people's minds to just enjoy the moment. That's why this lifestyle is so liberating for many, it's really all about enjoyment.

 

Don't beat her up (figuratively) about getting lost in a moment. Instead, step back and take a look at things and see why they went wrong. If you have unrealistic expectations and things go wrong, don't get upset with the things going wrong - look at the expectations and perhaps make them more realistic.

 

Judging by your other post with the other couple in the same boat, you seem to be understanding it. You have a decision to make regarding your marriage - but I offer you this little nugget for thought - can we really blame ourselves or our signifigant other if we set the bar too high, by holding onto uneducated and unrealistic standards?

[good times 991]

I can't really ad to what the others have said except for the following.

 

Because of his bolting from the room and her jumping up and not only coming to me but the first words out of her mouth, I think it indicates she knew at the time she was doing something wrong

Having been the other couple in a situation like this with newbies that didn't adequately explain their limitations before we got to the play room, I can explain what happened here.

 

When you returned to the room and saw what was happening, my guess is, your feelings about it were plainly visible by the expression on your face. When that happens to us we immediately get dressed and exit the situation as fast as possible in an attempt to avoid the drama that is obviously coming. So, while your girl apparently went further than you had agreed, based on what you have said here, the other couple is not to blame in the least, as you didn't tell them what your rules were, so they had no way of knowing that they were breaking them. Furthermore, you said,

I asked my GF, "Do you want him?"

If I were the other couple and heard you ask that I would have assumed we were good to go all the way if your girl friend agreed.

 

I would also argue that after you asked that question, your girl friend may have been under the same impression. In other words, she may very well have thought after you asked that question that you would approve of her doing what she did.

[slevin 1,374]

I can't really ad to what the others have said except for the following.

 

 

Having been the other couple in a situation like this with newbies that didn't adequately explain their limitations before we got to the play room, I can explain what happened here.

 

When you returned to the room and saw what was happening, my guess is, your feelings about it were plainly visible by the expression on your face. When that happens to us we immediately get dressed and exit the situation as fast as possible in an attempt to avoid the drama that is obviously coming. So, while your girl apparently went further than you had agreed, based on what you have said here, the other couple is not to blame in the least, as you didn't tell them what your rules were, so they had no way of knowing that they were breaking them. Furthermore, you said,

 

If I were the other couple and heard you ask that I would have assumed we were good to go all the way if your girl friend agreed.

 

I would also argue that after you asked that question, your girl friend may have been under the same impression. In other words, she may very well have thought after you asked that question that you would approve of her doing what she did.

 

Nothing to add to this either, but I found this reply incredibly wise. There is a lot of subtleties to life and this reply pegged exactly what happened based on those subtle cues I think.

 

I lied, I do have something to add lol. In addition to this information; if it was really written all over your face and body language I think it explains her reaction to you as well. To jump up, hug you and reassure you that she only wants you could have been her way of trying to assuage your reaction. Do I think she meant it? No, probably not, I am sure she was enjoying what was going on. But I bet she meant the sentiment that was behind it. Based on your description of how she has reacted at home since this, I think she was probably trying to make sure you were ok. I disagree with how she handled it, but that is because I love complete honesty. I'd rather my wife tell me he was the greatest fuck she ever had and she'd fuck him anytime she saw him than for her to lie to save my feelings.

 

In any case, something else to think about. I can toss it out there, but you know your wife better than anyone else

[NorthLaCpl 99]

 

.......When you returned to the room and saw what was happening, my guess is, your feelings about it were plainly visible by the expression on your face. When that happens to us we immediately get dressed and exit the situation as fast as possible in an attempt to avoid the drama that is obviously coming. So, while your girl apparently went further than you had agreed, based on what you have said here, the other couple is not to blame in the least, as you didn't tell them what your rules were, so they had no way of knowing that they were breaking them. Furthermore, you said,

 

If I were the other couple and heard you ask that I would have assumed we were good to go all the way if your girl friend agreed.

 

I would also argue that after you asked that question, your girl friend may have been under the same impression. In other words, she may very well have thought after you asked that question that you would approve of her doing what she did.

 

Yeah, I do have to admit that your scenario makes a lot of sense. Added to the fact that I'm 6' 2" / 235 lbs, so I'm a fairly big boy who's never been able to master a poker face. (Bad as I hate that fact) If I'm thinkin' it, you can read it. So that said, I was absolutely not going to cause any drama in the club, nor was I planning on going medieval on him. But I do think the real truth is he probably saw my face and then remembered our previous conversation and decided screw this, and left the scene.

 

 

I lied, I do have something to add lol. In addition to this information; if it was really written all over your face and body language I think it explains her reaction to you as well. To jump up, hug you and reassure you that she only wants you could have been her way of trying to assuage your reaction. Do I think she meant it? No, probably not, I am sure she was enjoying what was going on. But I bet she meant the sentiment that was behind it. Based on your description of how she has reacted at home since this, I think she was probably trying to make sure you were ok. I disagree with how she handled it, but that is because I love complete honesty. I'd rather my wife tell me he was the greatest fuck she ever had and she'd fuck him anytime she saw him than for her to lie to save my feelings.

 

It's funny you should say this Slevin, this is pretty much what I told her last night.

 

Dave here - Alcohol will lower our resistance to trying things, you don't have to be drunk to go there either. Dave before a couple of beers is quieter and more reserved. After a couple of beers with friends, the ladies around us all know to tie their bras in knots. And he is by no means drunk - he is simply relaxed and playing around.

 

While alcohol is not an excuse, getting lost in the moment and not thinking about rules and regulations and discussions is quite possible. Getting overly excited is quite possible. A new situation and letting go might push some things out of people's minds to just enjoy the moment. That's why this lifestyle is so liberating for many, it's really all about enjoyment.

 

Don't beat her up (figuratively) about getting lost in a moment. Instead, step back and take a look at things and see why they went wrong. If you have unrealistic expectations and things go wrong, don't get upset with the things going wrong - look at the expectations and perhaps make them more realistic.

 

Judging by your other post with the other couple in the same boat, you seem to be understanding it. You have a decision to make regarding your marriage - but I offer you this little nugget for thought - can we really blame ourselves or our signifigant other if we set the bar too high, by holding onto uneducated and unrealistic standards?

 

You know guys, obviously I've turned this thing inside out and not only in my head, but in my heart as well. And the one thing I've learned is I can't always get my head and my heart to agree. And Dave, my head has agreed with most everything you and Kat have told me, even though my heart has often lagged behind and continued to feel hurt and betrayed. My heart has continued to ask what if? Will she do it again? Where is her heart? Was everything we agreed to only lip service so she could get what she wanted?

 

Well of course most of these are the childish questions of a bruised heart, and I'm forcing myself to see and accept that now. And as if I needed further proof, just this morning she came down with shingles around her neck which is a sure sign of extreme stress. Nothing less than visible evidence of how greatly this has upset her. She has been so worried I was going to leave her that it's made her physically sick and that fact sickens me.

 

Bottom line is this: We both agreed before we went into that club that no matter what happened, we wouldn't let anything end us. If the experience went pear shaped, we would continue together no matter what. Well, I'm going to honor that agreement.

 

Through this ordeal I've learned a lot about the lifestyle, a lot about her, and yes, I've learned a lot about myself. I've learned I'm quite possibly too structured to fit into this lifestyle without further education and contemplation. I've learned that while she damaged my trust, I damaged hers as well. In clamming up and shutting her out that night, I wounded her greatly and went back on my word that we could talk though anything. That night I didn't think I could talk, I didn't even know how. But I have since and what I have realized is this: For the most part, you guys are right, it wasn't some well thought out plot, and it wasn't that she was trying to deceive me. It was a large combination of things that came together at just the right moment to screw us and the situation over.

 

I'll say one last thing, I don't think either of us would want to play with this particular couple again, as I still suspect they were less than honorable. And yes, I have asked myself if this is pretty much the norm with people in this lifestyle. ie, when it comes to sex, get yours and let the chips fall where they may. However, the people here who've taken the time and effort to help us have shown me that there is honor and caring among the people in this community, and that has restored my faith that maybe better things are possible.

 

Thanks guys, from both of us.

[The Fuse 1,012]

I'll say one last thing, I don't think either of us would want to play with this particular couple again, as I still suspect they were less than honorable. And yes, I have asked myself if this is pretty much the norm with people in this lifestyle. ie, when it comes to sex, get yours and let the chips fall where they may.

 

I think most people will pay at least some attention to your situation. However, unless they are really nice, they may well take the approach that you and your girlfriend are ultimately responsible for calling a halt when appropriate, and may expect you to understand each other very well. When it comes down to it, another couple cannot be expected to account for any communication problems or disconnects on your side. If they know you are new, they may pay extra attention, and they may be more cautious, if they are very considerate. But still it's your responsibility to handle anything on your side.

 

I must say you sound extremely nice and like you have a very good attitude, and that you know you are sensitive. You own your feelings and are willing to work with them but not ignore them. You have a lot of the qualities necessary for swinging and for a good relationship in general. Best of luck.

[LFM2 1,482]

You know guys, obviously I've turned this thing inside out and not only in my head, but in my heart as well. And the one thing I've learned is I can't always get my head and my heart to agree. And Dave, my head has agreed with most everything you and Kat have told me, even though my heart has often lagged behind and continued to feel hurt and betrayed. My heart has continued to ask what if? Will she do it again? Where is her heart? Was everything we agreed to only lip service so she could get what she wanted?

 

Well of course most of these are the childish questions of a bruised heart, and I'm forcing myself to see and accept that now. And as if I needed further proof, just this morning she came down with shingles around her neck which is a sure sign of extreme stress. Nothing less than visible evidence of how greatly this has upset her. She has been so worried I was going to leave her that it's made her physically sick and that fact sickens me.

 

Bottom line is this: We both agreed before we went into that club that no matter what happened, we wouldn't let anything end us. If the experience went pear shaped, we would continue together no matter what. Well, I'm going to honor that agreement.

 

Through this ordeal I've learned a lot about the lifestyle, a lot about her, and yes, I've learned a lot about myself. I've learned I'm quite possibly too structured to fit into this lifestyle without further education and contemplation. I've learned that while she damaged my trust, I damaged hers as well. In clamming up and shutting her out that night, I wounded her greatly and went back on my word that we could talk though anything. That night I didn't think I could talk, I didn't even know how. But I have since and what I have realized is this: For the most part, you guys are right, it wasn't some well thought out plot, and it wasn't that she was trying to deceive me. It was a large combination of things that came together at just the right moment to screw us and the situation over.

 

I'll say one last thing, I don't think either of us would want to play with this particular couple again, as I still suspect they were less than honorable. And yes, I have asked myself if this is pretty much the norm with people in this lifestyle. ie, when it comes to sex, get yours and let the chips fall where they may. However, the people here who've taken the time and effort to help us have shown me that there is honor and caring among the people in this community, and that has restored my faith that maybe better things are possible.

 

Thanks guys, from both of us.

 

I have one last thing to add... I appreciate and love your attitude, your maturity, and your compassion that you've shown through this whole situation. Especially toward your GF. I really hope she recovers from her shingles quickly. They are horribly painful and I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy.

 

Most couples, new and old, make goofs every once in a while, usually contributed to a lack of communication. That doesn't mean our love/trust or respect is lessened -- we just have to work through it and decide whether it's time to take a break for a period of time and reconnect or to continue on. One of the best attributes us members here on the board have is we're honest. We don't want to tell you what you want to hear -- we tell you the truth, which most times isn't what people want to hear. Your attitude regarding our responses shows us much about your character. We appreciate your responses in turn.

 

I don't blame you for not wanting to play with this couple again. I wouldn't want to play with them either. I think they were users and took advantage of your newness. I can only speak for us, but this is not typical of any of the swingers I've ever met, probably because we live in such a small area. It's too bad that you found players on your first time out.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I'm with LFM2 and just want to give you some kudos, in general, for how you are handling things. Yes, we all make mistakes and things happen and we twist them around in our heads trying to make them make sense. The best thing you can do is sit down and talk to your girl and really really spend some time talking through things. You've gotten some ideas from folks here on what might have been going through her head, use those to approach her in a non-judgemental non-blaming way and try to get to the heart of it. I loved what you posted in a similar thread that you have decided it's more important for your relationship to be happy than to continue to blame her.

 

Take this whole experience as a learning lesson. You now know how the general population of swingers think, take that information and adjust how you approach them based on that. We don't all assume the same things. For most of us, sex is sex and oral sex is something else. If oral sex is not an option for you, that's ok, just make sure you let them know that before you go into a room together. Make sure your boundaries are clear up front before you walk into a room and do not wait till you get in the room to change them or determine them. In the heat of the moment is never the time to make decisions.

 

You've learned alot here, and you'll get through it and you will both have a much more successful second time (if you choose to try again).

 

Also, keep reading other threads, and discuss them together. You'll run into other things that could happen and by reading others experiences and talking with each other about what you'd do in that situation you will learn even more about each other and about what you both really want out of this.

[truckerbuddy 127]

OK i must have missed it in here some where. But i have a question??

 

who bright the idea of swinging/lifestyle up?? was it the boyfriend or the girlfriend??

[NorthLaCpl 99]

OK i must have missed it in here some where. But i have a question??

 

who bright the idea of swinging/lifestyle up?? was it the boyfriend or the girlfriend??

 

Well, that's sort of complicated to answer. The idea of her with another man was first brought up by the boyfriend, but once it was brought up, she immediately loved it and took full ownership of the idea. And then for about a 24 hour period, she didn't think she could handle the idea of the boyfriend being with another woman, but the more she thought about it, the more she liked the idea of not only the boyfriend being with another woman, but her as well. And at that point, the gloves came off and her attitude was, any and everything goes. And it did.

 

See my reply in another thread that may clarify things for you:

 

Hummmm, this one comment got me to thinking about a few things here. And as a guy who's experienced a situation similar to your own, I've been very interested in what the veterans here on the board would have to say about your situation. And it seems to me that by and large, you've received some solid advice. But then again I do freely admit that when it comes to the lifestyle, if a little knowledge is dangerous, well hell, I'm not even mildly hazardous. But that said, one thing has occurred to me and it's this: Maybe you should back off and look at it from a novices point of view? Back up to where you both were when you first started discussing this. What were your fantasies? What turned you on about it? What were you looking to get out of it?

 

I just can't help but get the feeling that you're a bit like myself. A somewhat old fashioned guy who grew up with the belief that "good girls don't". When you met the right gal, she was put on a pedestal and kept pure. And sure, you may play with the wild ones, you surely didn't take em home to mama. Still yet, time passes, you mature, and you start thinking about your woman as a more sexual creature. You like the idea of seeing her as purely sexual, of her enjoying herself and enjoying sex but just for the sake of sex, no emotions involved. So maybe you explore starting down this road.

 

But here's the kicker. Maybe you don't research this thing first. Because hell, how complicated can it be? It seems pretty straight forward in your fantasies! You've fantasied about it, you've both talked about it, and it's played out in your mind a hundred times, so naturally you feel confident enough to map out a path forward. Now the boundaries are set and you really believe you've got all the bases covered. But in reality, you don't even know the questions to ask. But you soon learn the same thing we learned, that walking into this lifestyle cold is a bit like filing a flight plan for an asteroid. That any and everything can happen, and will.

 

And see, here's what we missed. First of all, unlike in our fantasies, in the real world, the other three people get a vote, and not only can they vote, they will and unless things are done correctly, they just might vote on the fly! Secondly, maybe like me you find out that your woman is one hell of a sexual creature. That while it was pretty hot to think about in a fantasy, in real life it was a bit of a kick to the gonads. In my fantasies, I thought I'd have to hold her hand and maybe even persuade her, talk her though this, but no, that wasn't the case at all. In reality, she left me setting on my thumb while she went forth and did exactly what we'd talked about.

 

So to me, it really comes to this: I realized it's a bit futile to get pissed off at the fox after willingly throwing her in the hen house. That is of course an option, but the other option is to maybe believe her when she says that she loves you, believe her when she says it's you she wants to be with. And maybe realize you've both learned something about each other and use it as a tool to grow together.

 

Of course another option is to jet her and move on to someone new. But what happens if you start wanting to revisit these old urges? Do you start down this old path with a new woman? Now wouldn't that be a mucked up deal?

 

Just something to think about.

[truckerbuddy 127]

Then it sound like some one got what he wanted,, life with it.

 

If you didn't want it to go this far, he should have put the brakes on it all..

 

Sorry, but if you ask for something and get it.. oh hell now what am i going to do..

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ENJOY

[lizandtom 512]

NorthLAcple, not much more to add than what's been written above, although from what we've seen over the last 5 years is that the lifestyle is primarily about the women, and rightly so. In what other area of society are we allowed to marry our cake and eat it too? lol. Yea it was your idea, yea she felt comfortable right away and you suffered 'out of the gate shrinkage' and weren't comfortable with the extent she went to, and that couple left without explanation, but tomorrows another day. One thing's for sure I'd say; that other guy getting blown while you were out to the lu was probably not brought on by the guy himself. Usually a guy has to be wavered over and invited and certainly no one was forcing your girlfriend to do it to him. The point being, you probably felt left out, a bit intimidated due to the non-performance issue, imho, but that was one night and EVERY guy in the lifestyle has a bad night occasionally. As long as you two communicate honestly over everything, you should be fine. I think you will have to learn to go with the flow a bit over time, and relax about the rules as long as they're not 'in your face' blatantly being broken. Liz has made rules before, and before you know it she's gone back on her word and gotten into something. It happens, I learned to relax over time and go with the flow, but jokingly I used to ask her for the 'new set of rules' of the week, according to her whim. Good luck and enjoy it all.

[10thBadger 25]

On 6/15/2009 at 3:13 AM, NorthLaCpl said:

 

Thanks for the welcome and the great reply to my questions. Clearly you get that this has caused us a huge amount of pain so I am very thankful for your help and the sharing of your experiences. And as to the alcohol, we can chalk that up as a lesson learned. No doubt that must be used in great moderation with this type of environment.

 

One thing I've learned since posting my questions is that her and I had a totally different understanding of the rules. In her mind, the very act of going into that room with the couple meant everything was consented to and we both had full permission to go all the way with the other couple. Her understanding was that if anywhere along the way one of us wanted to stop it, we could.

 

My understanding was we go in and take things in steps. As in she starts out playing with the other woman and then we decide what part the men play, which is pretty much what this other guy told me, or that's how I took it when he said we don't touch each other's woman until we both agree to it. So hell, maybe I am a prude and maybe my GF just took the more traditional approach much faster than I could?

 

And no, it doesn't dismiss the fact that she went forward while I was out of the room, that was one rule broke, and she did it without a condom, another rule broke. So I'm left having to accept her excuse that it wouldn't have happened had she not drank to excess.

 

As to what part the other couples leaving played in my anger, you're right, it plays a big part but not in the way you think. In my mind, when I returned and saw her going down on him, first of all I knew he'd broken the agreement we had just made and I felt I'd been played. And their abrupt departure just added to my feeling they knew they were guilty so they fled the scene.

 

Then seeing her breaking the rules of using a condom, no action unless we are both in the room, and the big one, no action at all without permission was the deal breaker. I felt played by all involved. But now with her explanation that she thought she had permission does change things in my mind. Before I felt she behaved as a slut and used the excuse of being drunk as a get out of jail free card to justify her actions . But as per her explanation, she thought she had permission but went further and faster than she would have had she not been drinking.

 

So as to who's view point on the rules is the more correct or more realistic one, I really don't know. I do know I feel dishonored that our agreements were not enough of a priority for her to curb her drinking and maintain control, especially considering this was our first time out and such an important leap. But as is, this has caused such a huge rift that it will probably be our first and last experience with the lifestyle. And our trust on all levels is damaged, mine for the reasons I've stated. And hers in she felt free to do this and then got snapped back. It's kind of become a lose/lose situation.

 

On edit:

But that said, she is very, apologetic and very, very remorseful. In fact she's devastated. And when I thought she had played me, I really didn't care. But with this new information as to her understanding of the rules, now I'm left trying to process it all and see what part I played in the events. I guess we didn't know it could get so complicated so fast.

Dude there was no misunderstanding. You get played by all three of them and your girlfriend is the worst player of all. That’s why she jumped up and said I tried it and I didn’t like it and I only want to be with you. That’s why the couple jumped up and ran out of the room as fast as they could because the dude knew that he had broken the rule that both of you have set amongst yourselves. Just like you said she can remember everything that happened at night but the most critical things. She broke every boundary and now she wants to make excuses that she didn’t understand the rules when both of you said it  at the same time that you were going to do this and not that. You will be played for SUCKER

[10thBadger 25]

On 6/15/2009 at 9:13 AM, LFM2 said:

Clearly, you two weren't on the same page with your own rules. You each interpreted the rules to meet your own needs. You can't fault her if the communication was not what it should have been and she went a little faster than you thought she should and she can't fault you for being angry/hurt.

 

Sounds like she had the pedal to the metal and you were just kinda putt-puttin, keeping it slow. Do I have that right? Most of us here believe that you should only go as fast as the slowest person. If you're just feeling out the water and not quite ready to jump in, your GF should be going only as fast as you are. Does that make sense?

 

 

Do you want to work through this? You both jumped into this without really communicating the rules thoroughly. Communication is so much more than just talking. It's reading your partners body language, reading eyes, and not just listening to what the other person has to say but really LISTENING to what your partner has to say. It's really getting to know your other partner. Telling each other everything. Communication is being so honest it hurts.

 

It's totally up to you if this is your first and last time swinging. Some couples are not cut out to swing, and that's OK. If you can work through this one-time incident, can communicate more effectively the rules and be totally honest with each other, be honest in your observations and feelings and most importantly, maintain respect for each other and your partners -- swinging can be done successfully.

 

As far as the drinking... I can't help but think you might have also known she'd had too much. You were with her and know her the best. Did you think she'd had too much? Most people lose all inhibitions with drinking. Some call it liquid courage. If you really need to drink to excess to have fun, you're not ready to play with others.

 

 

You bet it can. But the greatest problem I see with you two is your communication skills. You both played a major role in this failure of communication. If I'm reading this right, it does sound like you both had different takes on what your rules were, in addition, the drinking made for a bad night. This can be corrected. Rules were broken, but not all is lost. Talk over coffee at the kitchen table. Without accusing, talk about how it made you feel, let her talk about how she feels and go from there. Get it all out in the open and see if this can't be corrected, and move on. I really wish you both luck. Talking is easy. Communication isn't so much.

There is no communication problem between both of them. She wanted to break the rules and she did it. She can remember everything else but the rules and critical rules. She is using everything as an excuse with drinking and I thought it was OK if we went to the room. That’s total BS and that’s just her trying to cover her ass and to keep her boyfriend from breaking up with her. She knows what she did was wrong, the other couple knew it it it was wrong. And she’s trying to jump up and act innocent

[10thBadger 25]

On 6/16/2009 at 4:05 AM, Dave_kat said:

 

Dave here - There is a terrible truth in there. When it boils down to it, isn't pleasurable sex somewhat about yourself? We go through our lives seeking enjoyment, fulfillment, pleasure. We seek lovers who give that to us. We can be great lovers, but being that is one way to bring back our partners for repeated encounters - we make them feel great, they make us feel great. We remain with someone for love, but ultimately it boils down to our own pleasure.

 

Alcohol will lower our resistance to trying things, you don't have to be drunk to go there either. Dave before a couple of beers is quieter and more reserved. After a couple of beers with friends, the ladies around us all know to tie their bras in knots. And he is by no means drunk - he is simply relaxed and playing around.

 

While alcohol is not an excuse, getting lost in the moment and not thinking about rules and regulations and discussions is quite possible. Getting overly excited is quite possible. A new situation and letting go might push some things out of people's minds to just enjoy the moment. That's why this lifestyle is so liberating for many, it's really all about enjoyment.

 

Don't beat her up (figuratively) about getting lost in a moment. Instead, step back and take a look at things and see why they went wrong. If you have unrealistic expectations and things go wrong, don't get upset with the things going wrong - look at the expectations and perhaps make them more realistic.

 

Judging by your other post with the other couple in the same boat, you seem to be understanding it. You have a decision to make regarding your marriage - but I offer you this little nugget for thought - can we really blame ourselves or our signifigant other if we set the bar too high, by holding onto uneducated and unrealistic standards?

Everything went wrong when she broke the rules. Her boyfriend knows how much she can drink and even he said she was not drunk. She has a selective memory right now because her ass is in hot water with her boyfriend. She knew what she was doing and now she’s trying to find excuses for him to forgive her. And everybody on this board is trying to make excuses, everybody on this board is saying that they did not communicate what he is saying that they did communicate and they both made these rules, it was just not him making the rules, they both made the rules  and boundaries.