We were swingers but now my wife wants to be in a polyamory relationship with another

2TexasTornados · September 15, 2009

My wife and I have been married for 14 years and began our journey into swinging over 2 years ago. We have a model marriage, rock solid and exceptionally sexually charged. It all started when our best (vanilla) friends asked my wife to video them having sex, and she was shocked. We discussed it, and I really liked the idea. It didn't happen, but we began discussing our private fantasies. My ultimate fantasy is to watch her having sex with another man. That desire took us down the road to swinging. We found our first swinger couple online, and became full swap. Only rule: We play together; same room sex. On that bases, we're able to signal each other if anything negative comes up.

Fast forward to present day. We've had a mutual (married) friend that we've known since college (15 years). This summer my wife confided in the guy of the other couple that we were swingers. He thought the idea was tantalizing, and immediately started introducing the idea to his wife. Within two months all the ground work had been laid and I ended up giving his wife a massage that ended up nude and I had sex with her (completely sanctioned by our spouses). We were alone in the living room late at night- the other two had left us alone because I was working on my assignment. Upon notifying my wife and the other husband, they went directly to the upstairs bedroom and caught up. This stretched our same room swinging rule, but since we were introducing vanilla friends to the wide world of recreational sex it was acceptable.

By chance we had already planned a mutual vacation in Las Vegas for the following month. In all the hot discussions with our friends with new benefits we ended up negotiating an overnight wife swap. All three of them wanted it, and I decided since it was Vegas, lets try it all. One night became all 4 nights almost right away. I didn't want that, didn't like it, but I reserved judgement. I wasn't going to be the Debbie Downer of the group in Las Vegas. So we went ahead as planned. 4 nights of separate closed door sex. I couldn't believe I had gotten myself into.

Now my wife and her (boy)friend of 15 years have all but established our group as a polyamorous. They only play behind that goddammed closed door, and I hate it. I have the same privilege with his wife, but for me I only consider myself a NSA swinger. Not a closed polyamorous "I love you" relationship. My wife is in love with this guy, we see them on 6 week intervals (240 miles separate us) and I don't know what to do. It's so far along now that I'll destroy the friendship if I pull the All-Stop lever now. I don't see the other-wife that I've been assigned as being in the same attraction class as my wife. He, on the other hand is ga-ga over my wife, and they have talked up a bond that rivals my own marriage. She's admitted to me that they're saying their I-Love-You's behind that damn closed door.

I've imposed time limits on them now, 1.5 hours is it behind that door. My wife respects that and follows it, but I know she (they) want more and likely resent it. I'm iron clad on that, and have shut out all discussions about more time -> all night swaps again. If I had foreseen any of this when we started swinging 2 years ago I would have squashed it. But now I'm here, and I'm conflicted. I can suppress my (is it jitters? jealousy?), but it keeps popping up and I become moody over the worst case scenario of those two running off and starting a bakery together. I don't want to stop what's possibly a good thing, but my primary fantasy has been permanently removed: watching my wife enjoy sex with another man.

I've deleted all our swingers profiles on the lifestyle sites in protest. I might just passively remove myself from the group. I'm so afraid of damaging my awesome marriage over this. Tell me, what would you do?

VegasLee · September 15, 2009

I would look in the mirror and know that I would be the one to blame for what has happened to this relationship and what is happening within it.

YOU did something you where not comfortable with in Vegas. Four nights of closed door playing. Right there you should have been honest with your spouse and the other couple. This was not something you wanted to do. Because you wanted to be the "good guy" you let it happen and now it has gotten out of control and you are having real problems with it.

You state you have this rock hard relationship with our wife, then prove it to her and yourself. Be honest with her and put a stop to all of this before it ends your relationship with your wife and friends.

Talk to her then get all four of you together and talk with them. There does not have to be a fight or argument. You have to man up and tell them the truth. You are not comfortable with the way things are, you are not happy with it and there needs to be some adjustments made or you don't want to swing anymore.

You already know what you have to do, I can see it in your writing but you are to concerned about being a bad guy rather then using your head and working this out as an adult.

Your not playing high school games here, your playing with your relationship and your lifestyle.

Be honest with yourself, your wife and your friends. There is no reason to lose any of it if you act like an adult and do it right.

Hope you make the right choices here for all concerned.

Good luck.

Dynamar · September 15, 2009

Plain and simple, talk to your wife. Calmly and rationally, and not in anger... although I'm hearing a lot of anger in your post, and perhaps rightly so. But nobody can take advantage of you without your permission.

You and your wife need to get your thoughts and feelings out in the open ASAP. However, ultimatums, hard lines and time limits probably aren't the answer.

Good luck.

WonderWhat · September 15, 2009

Quick response:

1) Initiating vanilla friends into the lifestyle is always tricky. Initiating them by swapping with them, as opposed to holding their hands through the process of swapping with someone else, is even more problematic. You and your wife are swingers, your friends are not. Had you played with them after they got a chance to soak up the lifestyle ethos, maybe things would have gone differently.

2) You should have let your feelings known as soon as they happened.

3) I haven't the slightest idea of how to defuse the situation as it stands without damaging the marriage, the friendship, or possibly both.

The only recommendation I have is to have a heart-to-heart with your wife, and do not come out angry or whiny. No preconditions, ultimatums or passive-aggressiveness; just a statement of facts and a willingness to work through this together.

couplers · September 15, 2009

My question is how is she treating you otherwise? If your relationship is good on all other planes, then let her have her fun. None of us can help who we find attractive or even fall in love with. But I suspect this is swinger "puppy love," it will play out, and she will love you all the more for it. Tell her you are happy she has found this fascination and that you are there for her. She will ultimately be more grateful to you that you have given her all this within the security of a dependable marriage.

LagniappeDC · September 15, 2009

From what we can tell, this path is unacceptable for you. Swinging, in our book, is a couples experience. If one of us isn't happy or comfortable then we fix it -- even if that means dialing back the activities.

You don't want to be a "debbie downer" but in the long term it doesn't seem as if this can continue. Your marriage will ultimately suffer and that is the worst of all possible worlds.

Sometimes, especially with new partners, you can get so caught up in the excitement that you don't realize that you've gone to far (especially if your partner is not speaking up and you are technically following all the rules).

You need to speak up. Fast.

The Fuse · September 15, 2009

We have been in a situation where I and the guy half of another couple fell in love, while my husband and the other guy's wife did not. The situation was workable for a while, but ultimately imploded. I know better now and would not just "go with it" if something like that happened again. That is to say, I would at least fight against making the mistake before I made it .

Seriously, Vegas Lee gave you the best advice. You have to deal with this situation before it gets any further out of hand. Acknowledge that you should have been the party pooper while you were on vacation. At least the couple involved live several hours away, which will help, because you can't see them very often. Our friends lived a little over an hour away, and he actually talked about taking a job that would put them closer to us. I'm really glad that didn't happen. At the time I was taken aback by his even suggesting it and I told him as much.

The way I see it, preventing a future situation is partly up to me and partly up to my husband. If I see someone starting to get a little moony over me, and I don't see the potential for a real four-way poly relationship, I have to say something to warn them that if it progressed it would probably not end well. That has happened a couple of times since, and my saying something could well have helped prevent some pain. I am no femme fatale, but I do have a tendency to bond with men I like if they are open to it.

When I feel myself getting deeper with someone now, and I don't see that four-way potential, I pull back. I like to think I've learned, though I could still make the mistake for sure.

And if my husband started to see me getting too far with someone, he should put limits on what we can do. For instance, after that last one ended he said he didn't want to spend entire nights in a swapped situation anymore. It's his option to bend that rule. I think it's a wise rule, even though my tendency is to want to sleep all night with someone if I like them a lot.

I know it will be difficult to have the talks you need to have and do what you need to do. It sounds like your wife has a real strong case of puppy love, or even real love. Since I'm presuming she knows your primary fantasy is to see her with other men, her wanting to have closed-door sex is even more evidence that she is in that state where it's hard to see that anything else matters. It's easy to underestimate the power of those feelings and the things they make people do, who are otherwise considerate of their spouses.

She could be feeling more or less "addicted" to this new love. When you put an end to her fix, as you must, you will then be dealing with the addiction and not as much with your wife, until she gets over it. I can attest to how upsetting it can be to give something like that up. But she should know her priorities. It may take a while, and cost you the friendship. But that is better than the possible alternatives.

Good luck to you. Please take a deep breath and just do what you know you need to. I hope we hear from you again as things progress.

2TexasTornados · September 15, 2009

Hi, all. I'm the Mrs. of 2TexasTornados.

We HAVE talked about all this, and at length. We've always been talking to each other along the way about all of this. Nothing my husband said in his post is new to me.

When we started swinging, I was a reluctant player. I'm not at ALL a prude and have always been a firecracker in our own bed, but I don't enjoy group sex, I don't enjoy being watched. I don't enjoy girl-on-girl. However, I don't DISLIKE it enough to overrule his love for it. SO, I did all of those things. I was happy to see him so happy, so it was a small price to pay.

The husband of our current couple (I'll call him P) has been my best friend for 18 years. I met him in college, before I met my husband. Several times back then and up to the present, he and I have expressed that we have always had a connection that was more than friends. But neither of us wanted to "mess it up" with romance back when it was an option. Plus, back in college, I was already dating my husband by the time P had broken up with his girlfriend. So he and I were never completely "single" at the same time.

I've told my husband this, and I'll say it here. The kind of love I have for P, I've had since 1993. I don't feel any more bonded to him now than I have all these years. It was just mostly unspoken. P told me that he had always kept HIS feelings for me well hidden because he was respecting my marriage and our friendship by never even attempting to cross that line. It's not puppy love, nor any sort of dopamine inspired addiction.

We are not going to run off together. We can love our spouses and each other, and have been with no issues and no life changes. I'm still superwife, if I do say so myself. My husband and I still have all the sex we've always had. I still cook, clean, mow the lawn, take care of the kids. We still have couple time, cuddle time, nothing about our marriage has suffered in my opinion, EXCEPT that my husband insists that I've killed his dream of seeing me with other men, by honoring P's preference that he not play in a group setting.

A while back my husband said he'd like to move from standard swinging to polyamory, because we got along SO well with P and his wife. This was after I had repeatedly "warned" (more like advised) him that P and I had always had a very close bond, and I was sure that adding sex to that bond would put it on another level quickly. The very first night I told P that we had been swinging, he told me that he had secretly been in love with me for years. I immediately told my husband this the first night. My husband didn't want to back off, even after knowing that. He just wanted to get started on the playing pronto.

Now that HE has decided polyamory isn't working out for him, he wants to stop. I just want it to be clear (because there are ALWAYS two sides to every story), that I didn't run off on some wild hair toward polyamory without him.

Ever since we started swinging, it has been him making the requests/rules, and me following. This is the VERY first request I've ever made (that P and I are allowed some alone time) and I've tried very hard to pick up my stuff and keep following my husband around on his changing ideas and requirements.

My husband can insist we stop, and I guess as of this morning, that's the plan. But P and I will still be bonded. I think my husband's greater sadness is that I'm no longer interested in "NSA" swinging now that I found poly is my better fit.

The thing is, from the start, my husband has pushed me into things he thinks is a great idea (like playing with P even when I told him it was going to head toward expressed love), then when things don't pan out like he fantasized, he wants to be able to pull my plug and undo my emotions.

I can go on indefinitely loving both men. I have for years. I do have some level of discontent that my husband can pull the rug out from under me, when I've asked for so little along the way and have gone out of my way to fulfill his fantasy needs. P is not comfortable with "on display" sex, and I think 1.5 hours every month or so isn't too much to ask. But my husband does, and of course if he makes me choose, I choose what he wants, over what P wants. But P will never have same room sex, so it will just stop.

Thanks for listening to my side.

The Fuse · September 15, 2009

Well there were certainly some things in your side of the story that your husband didn't share, like your warnings and the fact that you were already bonded with P, and that it was your husband who first expressed interest in poly.

Thanks for sharing. I hope you and your husband can reach some sort of compromise that works for both of you.

TheLorax · September 15, 2009

Relationships issues are always complicated. Sex is the easy part, emotional issues usually create the deeper issues.

Having read both sides (and I come from the background of polyamorous relationships most of my adult life), the only thing I have to say is that I think you two need to see a poly friendly counselor together. It may not resolve any issues, but at least it forces you both to try to explain your perspectives to an independent unbiased observer. I don't think what you all have is unresolvable, and I think compromise and accord can be reached, but I do think that professional guidance could really help here.

I wish you two well, from the descriptions on both sides it sounds like you have a great relationship in spite of the recent issues.

bbarnsworth · September 15, 2009

There's always two sides to every issue. When I first started reading this thread, where I thought it was headed was here. Those of you who've read it before know of what I speak.

I've seen several threads here over time where one member of a couple willingly walks into swinging, finds it is not going exactly how they'd like, and the resulting outcome is some hurt feelings, broken communication, etc. The right responses to situations like this do not include shutting down communication, making demands, giving ultimatums, or anything else that could be construed as divisive.

Swinging or poly relationships both depend upon emotional and psychological honesty between all partners. Without that, it will be an unhealthy situation at best.

To the couple that started this thread; I don't think you're going to be a train wreck. I see hurt feelings, dashed hopes and expectations, and more. But, I don't see an unhappy marriage in what little has been written so far.

For the husband's part, yes he marched into this and encouraged your emotional and physical bonding with P. When the reality became something other than what he wanted, he asked for the plug to be pulled. This isn't inherently wrong. Any spouse, in any swinging situation, has a right to change their minds, say no, back up, pull the plug, re-evaluate, etc. and do so without fear of castigation by the other spouse.

With my wife and I, that is an inviolable rule. For us, if one of us does that we leave the situation without question or drama. We then discuss it outside of the situation, focusing on us. That's what we're in swinging for after all; us. That rule has never been exercised because we've both always been happy with any swinging activities going on.

Both of you have the right to say no to something, to stop something. Neither of you has the right to demand yes and allow something to happen.

My wife and I in exploring swinging recognize there will be times that we're trying something new, and the outcome may be that we decide it wasn't all that great, and we'd prefer not to do it again. On some things, you can't know if you will like it unless you try it. I think I want my wife to have a regular lover on the side, and see him fairly frequently, playing solo, so long as no emotional ties develop beyond friendship. My wife thinks it is possible she would like that. Neither of us will know unless we decide to try (I'm ready to try, she's not quite ready yet). As we try, if either of us does not like it, either of us can pull the plug and should do so sooner rather than later.

Your husband was willing to trying swapping spouses for a night. When he realized he didn't like it, he should have said so after night 1, and not kept on taking it for the home team. Likewise, if you didn't like having sex with other men in front of your husband, you shouldn't keep doing it to take one for the home team. Doing these things just generates animosity. "I hate doing this, but I'll put up with it because it makes him/her happy" is not a recipe for happiness. It's a recipe for disaster.

There is currently a disconnect between what your husband wants and what you want.

Your husband wants to have same room sex with you, wants to watch you have sex with other people. I can certainly understand that. It's highly erotic for me to watch my wife having sex with other men. I suspect your husband may not ultimately be comfortable with a poly situation. In his post, it appears he's very concerned about the emotional bond you have with P, and the exchange of "I love you"'s. There is nothing wrong with him wanting to watch you have sex with other men. There is nothing wrong with him not feeling comfortable sharing your heart with other men.

You want to have private sex with other men, men with whom you share an emotional bond. You don't want to have sex in front of other people, and you don't want to have sex with people whom you do not love. I can readily understand that as well. Being alone in the room with a sex partner allows you to fully focus on that partner, and not have to be concerned about your spouse for the moment. Also, having an emotional bond with a sex partner just "feels" right to many people, and it certainly adds to sexual pleasure in many cases. There is nothing wrong with either of those things.

I think it is a right and good thing that you stop playing with this couple, at least for now. The two of you need to be on the same page, and need to be certain what you are doing is what both of you want. That's not the case right now. In swinging or in poly, when that disconnect happens stepping back as far as needed to get to a point of agreement is necessary. Once you're back in agreement, you can work on how to move forward again

I have a friend with whom I am very close. She and I were engaged a long time ago, but broke up. We remained close, and are still close to this day. It is a very tight, deep, emotional bond that we share. It not longer has romantic or physical aspects to it, but there is still a very strong bond. I do love her, and I love her very much.

In various discussions my wife has asked if I would want to restart a physical relationship with her. My answer, after some thinking, is no and will remain no. Even assuming she were a swinger (she's not, I'm very certain of that), the idea of resuming a physical relationship with her is dangerous at best.

Your situation with P is probably similar in some ways. Despite your warnings, I don't think you fully understood the gravity of the emotional situation that was going to evolve. It's not new relationship euphoria. All the more reason it is dangerous. NRE could be waved off; after half a year or so of regular sex with this guy, your relationship with him would probably stabilize. But, starting out with a strong emotional bond and adding sex to it; that's lighting the fuse on a nuclear bomb and being amazed when it goes BOOM.

In any case, your husband doesn't share the same bond with P's wife that you do with P. It's a lopsided quad poly relationship. Such things can work, but it's dicey.

If ever you go back down the road of a quad poly relationship, I think it would be a better idea to do so with a new, to both of you, couple.

In the meantime, it's a good thing that the brakes have been put on. I'm sorry your losing the physical relationship with P. I'm sure the sex was wonderful, and the relationship felt fantastic. Nevertheless, your husband is more important, and you've certainly shown that in your post. Bravo!

Alura · September 15, 2009

I'm just a hick Okie, and I don't claim to have any wisdom on polyamory, but it seems to me y'all have left out a key action that must be taken before this situation can be righted without lingering resentments.

Y'all need to have a sit-down discussion with the other couple. They are intimately involved in this situation. Don't just leave them in the cold.

My best to all four of y'all; I hope it works out well to preserve the friendship which seems to be quite rewarding. It would be a pity to lose it entirely.

couplers · September 15, 2009

In a nutshell this thread is what is wrong with so much on this site. There are so many rules, hurt feelings, signals, drama and things to discuss. This is supposed to be about sexually liberated people in a committed relationship that love their spouse so much they are willing to let them have sexual and emotional freedom. If my husband came home tonight and said he had sex or is even in a relationship with another woman, the first thing i would say is, "Is it good? Are you happy?" then I would have sex with him. That's it. There is no "Trust" issue, that's just another jealousy game. It's the same story as in the vanilla world but just twisted around a little more - "Yes, Charles, I love him but we didn't have sex," "No, Amanda, I don't love her but we did have sex." Now it's "Naomi, we can have oral sex in separate rooms, but full intercourse only in the presence of each other except if you say beforehand..." Scheese!

I thought every one here recognized that not only do people not mate for life, but also they are not monogamous. That is the liberation we are all to enjoy.

Maybe I'm too warped by my own situation with a wonderful husband that I adore and "trusts" me so much that I can see my boyfriend several times a week and tell him that I love him even if hubby is there. When I'm tied up doing next year's budget all weekend he can go off with my hot, "I ought to be jealous," horny girlfriend and do whatever they want to do. Guess what - when he gets back it's better than ever.

Dave_kat · September 15, 2009

Dave here, and I have to throw in on this one...

We've (Kat and I) have been in both NSA and polyamory situations. Each type of relationship has a lot of drawbacks, but also has some benefits.

I'm not exactly clear on the total relationship thing here. I have to guess a bit, but I am truly assuming that the issue isn't polyamory itself, but a couple of misunderstandings, thst the 240 mile distance isn't helping with a truly polyamorous situation.

First off, the husband wants to enjoy the group sex aspect, where everyone is in bed together. This can and does happen in a polyamorous relationships. The problem here is that we're also experiencing somewhat of a reunion celebration each time everyone gets together. We're this not part of it, it's entirely possible that it can end up being a foursome when they get together.

Second, if this were a true polyamorous setting, the husband would have some strength of feelings for the other spouse. I'm not meaning to imply that there aren't any, but I wonder if there are some that are not mentioned because noone will admit to them, or they don't exist. Without some kind of mutual "love" there isn't really a polyamorous relationship, just a marriage with a sideline boyfriend and the wife who comes along for the ride. We don't see that aspect here, and while it may not have gone to "I love yous" behind closed doors, I truly lean towards there being something there that the husband and the other wife are getting out of this as well.. Or else they are both going along to try to keep their own relationships going at home. If so, then we're back to swinging and taking one for the team and see above about stopping things.

So I pose a couple of questions here..

1) Can and will the OP couple make the effort to return to their original partner while the other couple is around without the rules/timelimits? Or is there simply an overwhelming desire to be together at all times on the limited time they can get together? In other words, over a 2 week period, would the couples be split into two seperate couples the whole time given the chance, or could they come together and the M-F combination be irrelevant? (I use 2 weeks as that would hopefully be enough time to get over the reunion aspect)

2) How does the OP husband feel about the other wife? Does he feel anything more than a simple sexual attraction? If not, we're again away from a poly situation and more into a one-sided preferred couple situation.

I can understand the husband being upset about getting into this and not getting his desires out of it, but they have talked and there were warning flags put out there. From the OP wife, they truly discussed everything openly, but we have some denied fantasies due to the preferences of everyone involved, which leads to resentment.

To the OP... stop before ya'll piss each other off here, and sit down and conduct an honest assessment. What are each of your feelings towards the other partners? If you are honestly in a one-sided relationship, take your actions from there. But if you both feel a good amount of love towards the others (sexual orientation accordingly of course), then open up and realize that. Realize that you might not be able under your situatiuons to realize every fantasy.

Chicup · September 15, 2009

In a nutshell this thread is what is wrong with so much on this site. There are so many rules, hurt feelings, signals, drama and things to discuss. This is supposed to be about sexually liberated people in a committed relationship that love their spouse so much they are willing to let them have sexual and emotional freedom. If my husband came home tonight and said he had sex or is even in a relationship with another woman, the first thing i would say is, "Is it good? Are you happy?" then I would have sex with him. That's it. There is no "Trust" issue, that's just another jealousy game. It's the same story as in the vanilla world but just twisted around a little more - "Yes, Charles, I love him but we didn't have sex," "No, Amanda, I don't love her but we did have sex." Now it's "Naomi, we can have oral sex in separate rooms, but full intercourse only in the presence of each other except if you say beforehand..." Scheese!

I thought every one here recognized that not only do people not mate for life, but also they are not monogamous. That is the liberation we are all to enjoy.

Maybe I'm too warped by my own situation with a wonderful husband that I adore and "trusts" me so much that I can see my boyfriend several times a week and tell him that I love him even if hubby is there. When I'm tied up doing next year's budget all weekend he can go off with my hot, "I ought to be jealous," horny girlfriend and do whatever they want to do. Guess what - when he gets back it's better than ever.

Your post is an example of what happens when you assume your way is the only way. Just like its wrong to think swinging is for everyone, so is it wrong to think having a completely open polyamorus relationship is for everyone too.

I thought every one here recognized that not only do people not mate for life, but also they are not monogamous. That is the liberation we are all to enjoy.

That is a liberation YOU enjoy, and good for you if it works. While I am not monogamous I don't see me not 'mated for life'. I don't want an emotional crazy roller coaster and I'm perfectly happy with Mrs. Chicup as my only 'lover' as compared to my 'likers'

VegasLee · September 15, 2009

couplers said:

In a nutshell this thread is what is wrong with so much on this site.

Just because it is not your way does not make it wrong, just not right for you.

The husband [OP] is not happy with the way this has gone for him and he is part of the cause. He has the right to state that and should.

He is not you or like you but that does not make him wrong in his relationship or his choices.

Like most things in life, different things work for different people.

Swing*8701 · September 16, 2009

Susan here -- let's review the husband's broken rules

1. Never lie.

2. Don't do something you're uncomfortable doing.

3. Always communicate with your spouse.

LagniappeDC · September 16, 2009

All we can saw is "wow" -- this is a really deep conversation. And since going down the Poly route is not one that we've ever considered or have experience with we don't feel qualified to weigh in here.

We did want to say that we have the utmost respect for Mrs. 2TT for coming on this board, reading the posts, and responding in dignified manner. I've seen similar postings where the responders tend to attach those who tried to provide advice or insight.

In closing, we would still stick to our original sentiments which is whether we are swinging (or simply going to mall as a lame example), we do it at the speed of the "slowest" person. Where one doesn't feel comfortable, we don't do it. Experimentation is always allowed (even encouraged), but that doesn't mean that it will always be that way. If we try something and one of us isn't happy with the result, we can pull our "get out jail free card" with no hurt feelings by either of us.

It does sound as if the Mrs. 2TT feels there is an open line of communication. I don't necessarily get that from Mr. 2TT (from reading the post). Perhaps a couples counselor would be a worthy investment?

Best of luck to the both of you!

Sunswept · September 16, 2009

I don't want to stop what's possibly a good thing, but my primary fantasy has been permanently removed: watching my wife enjoy sex with another man.

I can go on indefinitely loving both men. I have for years. I do have some level of discontent that my husband can pull the rug out from under me, when I've asked for so little along the way and have gone out of my way to fulfill his fantasy needs. P is not comfortable with "on display" sex, and I think 1.5 hours every month or so isn't too much to ask. But my husband does, and of course if he makes me choose, I choose what he wants, over what P wants. But P will never have same room sex, so it will just stop.

Seems like there is room here for a compromise??

While 'NSA Swinging" per se is not in the cards with Mr and Mrs P, what would prevent Mr 2TT and Mrs 2TT swinging with other swinging people as had been done for 2 years, AND Mr and Mrs 2TT also maintaining the poly "V" relationship with Mr& Mrs P? Assuming Mr & Mrs P were open to Mr and Mrs 2TT engaging in swinging with other people as they had done??

Is there a way to turn this into a win/win?? I would not suggest this at all except the "2TexasTornados" seem to be open and have a good relationship. Both are clear about their discomforts, both are clear about their own needs. Mrs 2TT already stated she liked seeing her husband happy swinging, she was OK with giving that to him -maybe Mr 2TT could stretch a bit and return that comperson to Mrs 2TT??

Unless something like that can be worked out, I think the best thing to do would be to drop both swinging and the poly relationship. Reset and reboot. Seems like no matter what is decided, there will be either a bit of shared sacrifice, or a bit of shared discomfort, at least at first.

Would the compromise I suggest be "taking one for the team" for BOTH Mr and Mrs 2TT? Maybe, but what I am really suggesting is that the place to start here is to explore how much each can "grow" toward the other. Maybe it is possible, maybe it is not, the discussion will tell the tale, Alura makes a good point about the other couple being a party to the discussion.

A very wise woman once told me:

"Intention greater than desire equals ecstasy. Desire greater than Intention equals disaster."

Also, Swinger says "It's just sex" -Poly person says "It's just love"

couplers · September 18, 2009

I apologize to the members for having rashly spouted off the way I did. Not only do we not all take the same journey, but we also do not end up in the same place.

From reading Mrs. TT's response it is clear she is a caring, accommodating and intelligent person. I can understand why Mr. TT loves her. So I stick with my advice to Mr. TT - show how much you love her by giving her what she desires regardless of whether it is logical or comports with past promises. Spit in the face of jealousy and tell her that you love her so much that she can plan weekends with him. It's a release that will free you as well.

Think about it: if you were to die tomorrow would you prefer your wife to face a tough, exploitive world where no man loved her, or one where she had some measure of love and support from a man that cares for her. That is what my husband told this confused young girl when I couldn't understand his lack of jealousy with my other continuing relationship.

2TexasTornados · September 18, 2009

This is the Mrs. again...

couplers, I like your style!

A little more background so you may all better psychoanalyze. I do appreciate the input so far.

My husband and I got together on the heels of a break up from a guy who was too controlling for my tastes. Not violently so. Just annoyingly so. I came from a very abusively strict childhood, so I was in no way interested in a man controlling me. My husband was his own man, and let me be my own woman. He NEVER told me how to dress, what to say, when to leave a party, etc. He ALSO never got the least bit jealous, which my 20-year-old self was a little put out about, but I was willing to accept his oblivion since it meant he'd never boss me around. Later, I very much appreciated that he wasn't jealous, and now I believe it was just part of being young and being too green to know that love doesn't have to mean possession.

For many years into our marriage, this continued. He always enjoyed knowing I had close friendships with men, including my ex-boyfriend. He allowed and even encouraged hours-long conversations to which he was not privy. He thought it was great that I had them, and that they had me. Not once in all these years did I ever cheat on him, nor even contemplate it. He trusted me, and I never messed up. I loved him for trusting me.

When he first introduced swinging, I had knee jerk reactions from the old days - jealousy. I thought I had been so careful to avoid sharing this one thing - sex - and now he was going to hand it out. But the more we talked and the more I thought, I realized it was silly. I had my husband, he had me... I was already sharing intimate parts of myself emotionally with others (male), so why not "let" him share himself physically? I shed it all. I genuinely walked away from ALL jealousy and never felt a twinge since. Emotional, physical... I LOVE to think he's sharing with someone else, whomever that may be. I think it's great if he can find the kind of deep bonds that I have with others.

But now he says things like,"Don't you CARE? What if I got this close with P's wife? Wouldn't that alarm you?"

So, this is what we have: He never cared about my emotional bonding before. He was never the least bit jealous and never seemed to expect me to be. He was always open to swinging, even though we spent 12 years monogamous. So, he didn't care about sharing himself (or me) with others physically. He started out our marriage already pretty liberated in his way of thinking, and as the years progressed, he got more liberated... and NOW, he wants me to find it in myself to be jealous if I imagine myself in his place, of having a loving relationship with a playmate. I can't manufacture such a thing.

Also, he was the one who said recently that he was feeling like standard swinging wasn't what he was after, that he'd prefer an exclusive "poly-type" relationship (his words). Once we got there, and he realized his half of the quad wasn't the same brand of connection that my half is, he wants to revert back to standard swinging.

To be honest, I feel like a tug boat tied to his ship that keeps suddenly changing course, and I'm getting whiplash from the turns. I've always tried to take care of him and his emotional needs. I respect every "rule" and have imposed none on him. After the Vegas trip, he told me it was all over with P and his wife, and told me I would only be allowed to hold hands and nothing else. I was upset in the moment, and so chose not to discuss it at the time. I accepted his new ruling and was prepared to move on. Days later, he let up and said he'd be OK with continuing, as long as there were no more overnights. I agreed, and have since followed his brand new 1.5 hour rule.

As for P's wife - it's not that I have no concern for her feelings, it's just that she's not concerned. She easily and quickly shed all the trappings of monogamy and has openly accepted the concept of open marriage - right now my husband is her only playmate, but she knows she can entertain others if they come along, and she's fine with P doing the same.

Anyway, that's the fill in for the "fast forward to present day" in my husband's first post. He has "offered" to get his fix (of watching/same room) by going back to our other playmates in the meantime, and then when we get together with the main couple, he'll just let us all have alone time like we have been. But I wonder if it's going to make him "hate" it any less, just to know he's getting some payoff elsewhere...

A work in progress, you could say!

JustAskJulie · September 18, 2009

To Mrs2TT - are YOU willing to swing with others besides Mr & Mrs P? If so are you willing to do so in front of your husband?

I have to agree with Sunswept that perhaps there is room here for comprimise, and you can BOTH get what you want.

How does Mrs P feel towards Mr 2TT - perhaps she's not really as into him either. Perhaps there is a possibility to allow Mrs 2TT and Mr P to continue to see each other occasionally and enjoy a polyamorous relationship together. While both couples (or at least the 2TT's) also continue swinging with other couples they both agree on in a way that they can both agree on?

bbarnsworth · September 18, 2009

For many years into our marriage, this continued. He always enjoyed knowing I had close friendships with men, including my ex-boyfriend. He allowed and even encouraged hours-long conversations to which he was not privy. He thought it was great that I had them, and that they had me. Not once in all these years did I ever cheat on him, nor even contemplate it. He trusted me, and I never messed up. I loved him for trusting me.

Sometimes absolute trust giving results in absolute trust getting

When he first introduced swinging, I had knee jerk reactions from the old days - jealousy. I thought I had been so careful to avoid sharing this one thing - sex - and now he was going to hand it out. But the more we talked and the more I thought, I realized it was silly. I had my husband, he had me... I was already sharing intimate parts of myself emotionally with others (male), so why not "let" him share himself physically? I shed it all. I genuinely walked away from ALL jealousy and never felt a twinge since. Emotional, physical... I LOVE to think he's sharing with someone else, whomever that may be. I think it's great if he can find the kind of deep bonds that I have with others.

There's another thread on here about a woman saying "Aren't I enough for you?" I didn't respond in that thread, but what you said above applies. We already share ourselves with people around us constantly, every day. We share time, emotions, thoughts, chats, meals, all sorts of things. "Aren't I enough for you?" would smack of trying to be enough for ALL things in a person's life. Nobody can do that. It's hardly surprising that there are many people who find it applies to sex as well, and romantic love too for some.

But now he says things like,"Don't you CARE? What if I got this close with P's wife? Wouldn't that alarm you?"

It probably doesn't alarm you. But, this area of emotional non-monogamy is uncharted territory for most people. For me, I don't mind my wife having sex with other people. As much as she likes, if she likes. I do mind if she starts falling in love with someone else. I don't consider that jealousy. I just prefer us to focus on our love at this point in our lives, and not our romantic love for other people. If I were to venture into an area where she is falling in love with other people, it would take a great deal of adjustment.

All of us can think we'll like something. From that, we might encourage it, help our spouses pursue it, and happily do so. Then when reality sets in, we find that it's not what we thought it was going to be like. This happens sometimes with couples getting into swinging, where the enthusiastic husband finds out that watching their wives have sex with another man isn't what they'd thought it was going to be like, and invert on their desire to be swingers.

It isn't WRONG to behave in this way. We can't absolutely know how we'll feel about something until we're actually doing it.

and NOW, he wants me to find it in myself to be jealous if I imagine myself in his place, of having a loving relationship with a playmate. I can't manufacture such a thing.

Nor should you feel obligated to do so. If it's not in you, it's not in you. I see a person who is asking for some understanding of how he is feeling, some legitimization of his emotions in the current scenario. You can do that for him, even if you don't feel the same way he does about it.

It can be very difficult to get into the same mindset as someone else when it comes to emotions. We just don't feel like they feel. That doesn't mean we can't be understanding and supportive of them. Their emotions aren't wrong or right, they just are. He has a right to his emotions and so do you.

Also, he was the one who said recently that he was feeling like standard swinging wasn't what he was after, that he'd prefer an exclusive "poly-type" relationship (his words). Once we got there, and he realized his half of the quad wasn't the same brand of connection that my half is, he wants to revert back to standard swinging.

I think he's voicing he's not happy with the current scenario. I noted in an earlier post that if you venture into polyamory again, you should do so with a new couple, and not this couple. Emotions don't have to be equally balanced all the way around a quad-poly. In fact, it'd be a shock if they were. But, each person in the quad has to feel like they want to be in it, else it falls apart. Your husband doesn't want to be in this quad. That much is apparent. Maybe if you met up with a couple where both of you fell in love with the opposites in the other couple you'd both feel a lot better.

Swinging is a way to test this out to some degree; are both of you equally having fun? Consistently? Ok, move up a step; see the same couple repeatedly. Still going ok? Ok, let the emotions start to develop, spend nights together, go on trips together. Still going ok? Alright, let's try swapping for a week at time. Still going ok? Alright, let's try moving in together on a trial basis. Etc. You get the picture. Your husband might want to proceed more slowly.

In the current scenario, for you it was engage warp drives and suddenly you were having mad, passionate, loving sex with this other man. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, so long as everyone around the poly-quad is happy with that. But, you left your husband in the dust. He probably feels like he got run over by a bus

To be honest, I feel like a tug boat tied to his ship that keeps suddenly changing course, and I'm getting whiplash from the turns. I've always tried to take care of him and his emotional needs. I respect every "rule" and have imposed none on him. After the Vegas trip, he told me it was all over with P and his wife, and told me I would only be allowed to hold hands and nothing else. I was upset in the moment, and so chose not to discuss it at the time.

A VERY mature response. Sometimes people fail to understand that sometimes the best thing to do is nothing until a later moment.

Your husband is upset. It's not surprising there's turmoil right now. This will calm down in time, and once you're all back on the same page again and walking forward together, this problem will evaporate.

As for P's wife - it's not that I have no concern for her feelings, it's just that she's not concerned. She easily and quickly shed all the trappings of monogamy and has openly accepted the concept of open marriage - right now my husband is her only playmate, but she knows she can entertain others if they come along, and she's fine with P doing the same.

That doesn't mean it's balanced for your husband, or balanced enough for him to feel comfortable. You're the love of his life. He deeply, ardently loves and adores you. Suddenly he's finding his bed empty of you, you gone for long periods, and he's left with a woman he's not in love with at all like you are in love with P. That can be pretty unnerving, even to the most non-jealous of people.

Anyway, that's the fill in for the "fast forward to present day" in my husband's first post. He has "offered" to get his fix (of watching/same room) by going back to our other playmates in the meantime, and then when we get together with the main couple, he'll just let us all have alone time like we have been. But I wonder if it's going to make him "hate" it any less, just to know he's getting some payoff elsewhere...

A work in progress, you could say!

If ever your relationship with him stops being a work in progress, your relationship is over. Good relationships are always a work in progress. Bad ones stop working.

Please understand in all of this I'm not saying you are wrong and he is right or the opposite. I'm just offering potential viewpoints. Both of you have a lot of work to do. Having insight from other viewpoints can help that. I for one am VERY glad you're posting all of this here. I think you're doing your relationship a great service by baring this here, and seeking input. Bravo!

gatorvol64 · September 19, 2009

I just got at chance to check in on things. I actually think this is a good thread with room for growth by Mr. TT, Mrs. TT and even by others just thinking about this situation.

Mrs. TT, it may seem like I am addressing your more but that's because I have been somewhat in your husband's shoes and our experiences are what we draw from.

Although you warned Mr. TT about what you felt would happen, I don't feel he believed you. He was too caught up in wanting to play with the couple himself. Turns out you were right in giving the warning. (It's good to know oneself that well.) You say he has always been comfortable and not jealous of your friendships with other men. That's good but try to understand that this is somewhat different. Knowing your SO loves someone else, sharing them emotionally can be more difficult that sharing them sexually. (Most here would agree with that and avoid the possibility.) However, it seems here it was unavoidable.

I understand Mr. TT that you brought up the idea of poly. (I wish you had posted again since your wife has.) Let me ask you why that was? What were you missing from swinging that you would do that? Or what did you think a poly relationship was?

Mr. TT, do you have any feelings for P's wife? Any at all? What are they? If so, are you upset that your relationship isn't as advanced as your wife and P's? If they took a few steps back and let you catch up would that help? I don't mean catch up as in having the same kind of relationship with Mrs. P. Because, frankly, that may never happen. And it doesn't have to. All of you just have to be happy with what is. And even if you do develop as deep a relationship with her and you do form a quad, all the dyad relationships will never be at the exact place. You'll have times of moving close and away just like you and your wife do in your mono relationship.

Now, what I mean by catching up is you catching up with the mindset of being poly. In case you don't know, I am part of a quad. We started this when my husband and the wife of the other couple fell in love almost immediately. Long story short is during the course of a year to two years, each of the four of us had times we were the one going at the slowest pace. I didn't fall in love with the other husband nearly as quick. I was the first to move at a slow pace though I constantly challenged myself to grow. I was too busy dealing with how I felt for Gator to actually love someone else that I didn't have time to fall in love and couldn't have handled that emotionally either. I liked Tech and enjoyed sex with him. Love for him did eventually sneak up on me.

What is it that bothers you so much about your wife and P? And I'm not saying at all that you are wrong. Is it that she fell in love? Is it that she fell in love so quickly? Are you afraid she'll leave you for him? (I've had people ask me this about swinging and being in a poly relationship. I tell them being monogamous didn't guarantee Gator would always stay with me.) If you had a chance to get used to things more slowly would that help? If that happened, would you want to and could you work on what might be a potential relationship with Mrs. P?

Mrs. TT, can you see how the suddenness of this may be what is causing Mr. TT to have such a problem with this? Can you slow things down for him? I can tell you that it feels lonely getting left in the dust and your spouse not looking back to check on you...lonely and scary. I know he brought this up and you warned him what would happen, but even if he believed that, he seems to have not been prepared for the reality of the situation. From you posts, I think you'd be willing to slow things down.

And don't forget his fantasy. It's hard for him to give that up. Gator also likes seeing me with another man and that is the biggest fantasy we set out to live through swinging. It's rare that we have group sex any more. Our time together is rather limited and we try to get as much alone time in with our respective loves as we can. However, MFM with both the men I love fulfill this for him and, though they aren't happening right now because the opportunity hasn't really been there, he knows that it is a possibility and that I am willing. I've always liked threesomes and loving both the men involved only adds to the experience. Is this something you and P would be willing to do with Mr. TT? And don't forget Mrs. P here. Try any threesome you all may like.

Also, polyamorous relationships are not any one configuration. They are what we make them. What we are all comfortable with. Could be that if both Mr. TT and Mrs. P are ok with it, you and P could have a relationship and, if it wasn't working between Mr. TT and Mrs. P, they could seek out relationships with others. You do not all four absolutely have to form a quad.

I have to strongly encourage you to take the advice that many have already given you. You need to talk. First you need to talk with your husband about what you both may be willing to compromise on. What speed you both need to go. All of the things addressed in this thread. Let the other couple know what you will be discussing and give them the chance ask them to do the same between them. Then, once you both are on the same page, you need to sit down with P and Mrs. P. Discuss what each marriage has determined they can handle and what they are willing to work on handling. See if there can be a meeting of ideas in there somewhere.

Good Luck!

Vol

2TexasTornados · September 19, 2009

Mr. 2TT here. I'm very impressed with the time and effort this community is investing in our relationship. I am not angry, and am careful to not be perceived as such. I would characterize my disposition as disappointed.

Knowing your SO loves someone else, sharing them emotionally can be more difficult that sharing them sexually. (Most here would agree with that and avoid the possibility.) However, it seems here it was unavoidable.

When I opened our marriage to swinging, I had every confidence that Mrs. 2TT would never attach to a casual sex partner. I had every confidence that I had her emotional love exclusively, and that our love was well protected.

I have to agree that Mrs. 2TT is indeed a SUPERWIFE, as she has said herself. She makes my life easy. She handles kids and household and our business with no demands from me. I will never know another woman like her.

I understand Mr. TT that you brought up the idea of poly. (I wish you had posted again since your wife has.) Let me ask you why that was? What were you missing from swinging that you would do that? Or what did you think a poly relationship was?

Good question. I felt like constantly trolling the internet for new people for sex was dangerous, and it felt slutty. Meeting new strangers and trusting them to be D&D free would eventually lend itself to a disastrous mistake. I wanted a close, secure couple that we could trust, see regularly and look forward to weekend parties with them. A poly relationship embodied that for me. We would be equally involved with some yet unknown couple that would add fantasy to our lives. Our emotional love, after all was secure and not available for distribution.

Mr. TT, do you have any feelings for P's wife? Any at all? What are they? If so, are you upset that your relationship isn't as advanced as your wife and P's? If they took a few steps back and let you catch up would that help? I don't mean catch up as in having the same kind of relationship with Mrs. P. Because, frankly, that may never happen. And it doesn't have to. All of you just have to be happy with what is.

Our friendship with this couple has always been driven by Mrs 2TT friendship with Mr P. Mrs. P was always there, but really just part of the scenery. She and I never spent time together outside of the group, and I never had a sexual attraction to her. You might say she was part of the scenery. This summer I was challenged to seduce her as part of the game of introducing this vanilla couple to our world of recreational sex. I succeeded easily. I understand now that she has an affinity for me that is strong, and she chats with me daily. We've developed a great friendship that includes flirting and the expectation of sex. For me it's simple swinging. I don't love her, and would stop if asked at any time. I don't want more than what it is now.

What is it that bothers you so much about your wife and P? And I'm not saying at all that you are wrong. Is it that she fell in love? Is it that she fell in love so quickly? Are you afraid she'll leave you for him?

My wife and Mr. P have established a marriage-quality relationship. He's inside our secure fortress of emotional love. I'm now sharing my wife's emotions with another man. Mr. P has always been a good friend, but now I see him as a competitor. He's identified my wife as his soul mate, and would leave Mrs. P for my wife if given 1/2 the chance. So now the only thing that keeps my marriage to Mrs. 2TT secure is her devotion to me. But my entire security perimeter has been breached, and I have these two lovers-in-waiting moving about the cabin freely. Sometimes I think Mr. P used his wife as a Trojan horse to gain unrestricted access to my wife.

As a side note- Mr & Mrs P have had a rocky marriage in the past, and he's a lawyer making a quarter million a year. Neither of which help my case. If Mrs 2TT dedication to me wavered, I'd be instantly ruined. In every category.

If you had a chance to get used to things more slowly would that help? If that happened, would you want to and could you work on what might be a potential relationship with Mrs. P?

One of the things that went wrong was our vacation in Vegas. We had just established the sexual grounds 2 weeks earlier. Mrs. 2TT and I had always been same room swingers, but Mr. P successfully negotiated a closed door separate room overnight love-a-thon. And then made it ALL 4 NIGHTS! That right there pushed me too hard, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Make that terrible. I went off on the 3rd day with Mrs. 2TT and to her credit she handled it with remarkable maturity. At the time I pulled the all-stop lever, but softened later when the rum wore off and reluctantly allowed them a closed door session with a 1.5 hour limit. I was afraid of damaging her commitment to me, and in doing so would lose the whole woman. I'm still in danger.

And don't forget his fantasy. It's hard for him to give that up. Gator also likes seeing me with another man and that is the biggest fantasy we set out to live through swinging. It's rare that we have group sex any more.

The original fantasy is over. She's offered to "whore herself out" to satisfy my fantasy. Anyone would agree that's a terrible idea. There aren't any good solutions at this point. I'll never be allowed any involvement with her and Mr. P. And I'm not going to pressure her to whore herself out, so my fantasy has been deleted to make room for her new husband. If I stop this Mrs. P will be hurt, Mr. P will be resentful, and Mrs. 2TT never be the same. That friendship would be over, my marriage damaged, and I will be the bad guy. If it goes on ahead Mrs. P will continue to be happy, Mr. P and Mrs 2TT will be free to continue chipping away at my marriage and I'll be left with a self-defeating worry that consumes my happy-go-lucky demeanor.

I have to strongly encourage you to take the advice that many have already given you. You need to talk. First you need to talk with your husband about what you both may be willing to compromise on.

Excellent advice. We've talked quite a bit lately. So much so that she calls me the one-topic-wonder now. It usually ends in one of us crying. and I take the blame for all of this. I started the swinging, and I encouraged inviting our vanilla friends even after having been warned that Mr. P (but she really meant herself) wouldn't be able to manage the attraction.

I think I'll become a motivational poster for having defacing the most beautiful thing I've ever had. I've lead a charmed life, and this is the only time I've ever wanted an undo button. I'm confident we'll survive this, I just wish I knew how.

gatorvol64 · September 19, 2009

2TexasTornados said:

I am not angry, and am careful to not be perceived as such. I would characterize my disposition as disappointed.

Maybe not angry but hurt. It shows in your words. And that is understandable. You do need to work through it though. We are all entitled to our feelings and none are really wrong...it is what we do with them...how we handle them that is important. And we each are responsible for this ourselves.

2TexasTornados said:

When I opened our marriage to swinging, I had every confidence that Mrs. 2TT would never attach to a casual sex partner. I had every confidence that I had her emotional love exclusively, and that our love was well protected.

Well, I can certainly understand this. I'll not go into my history in great detail in this thread but, if you are interested, I've posted and blogged about much of it here. I understand this because I felt the same way when Gator fell in love with Kitten. However difficult it was to deal with and work through, we have come out the other side stronger for it. We are not the same people but its normal to change as the years go by. But, I'll clearly state here that poly is NOT for everyone any more than swinging is for everyone.

2TexasTornados said:

Good question. I felt like constantly trolling the internet for new people for sex was dangerous, and it felt slutty. Meeting new strangers and trusting them to be D&D free would eventually lend itself to a disastrous mistake. I wanted a close, secure couple that we could trust, see regularly and look forward to weekend parties with them. A poly relationship embodied that for me. Our emotional love, after all was secure and not available for distribution.

Well, that's the exact risks you take with swinging. If you weren't willing to take them any longer, you should have ended it there.

So, you wanted a couple to see regularly. Did you not think that feelings of some type would develop? Even if just good friends out of a couple you were to meet. Instead of meeting a new couple, you both chose to initiate vanilla friends into the lifestyle. And rather good friends at that. Why did it not occur to you that already having such feelings for them as you would have developed over the years wouldn't have been intensified when sex was introduced into the equation?

If you mentioned poly at all in regards to seeking this couple out, and didn't explicitly discuss with Mrs.TT that you didn't want love to enter the picture, it could be said you were a bit misleading. Particularly since she warned you that it would likely happen. Whether with Mr. P or with Mrs. TT. It was brought to your attention that it was a distinct possibility. At that point you should have told her you didn't want that and that should have nixed playing with this couple.

I do not think you understand what a poly relationship is. It is open, honest non-monogamy with the full consent of everyone involved that involves LOVE and can involve sex.

2TexasTornados said:

Our friendship with this couple has always been driven by Mrs 2TT friendship with Mr P. Mrs. P was always there, but really just part of the scenery. She and I never spent time together outside of the group, and I never had a sexual attraction to her. You might say she was part of the scenery. This summer I was challenged to seduce her as part of the game of introducing this vanilla couple to our world of recreational sex. I succeeded easily. I understand now that she has an affinity for me that is strong, and she chats with me daily. We've developed a great friendship that includes flirting and the expectation of sex. For me it's simple swinging. I don't love her, and would stop if asked at any time. I don't want more than what it is now.

Then you've always know Mrs. TT and Mr. P were close. Once again I have to say you should not have entertained the idea of swinging with this couple.

Scenery? She was the scenery? No sexual attraction to her ever? Who the hell challenged you to seduce her? Really, what would possess you to even accept that challenge? You are a grown man and can say no. How do you think that this attitude has been fair to Mrs. P at all? And you are still flirting with her? Knowing that you want this to end?

2TexasTornados said:

We would be equally involved with some yet unknown couple that would add fantasy to our lives.

I'm sorry to say that I feel this is the kicker for you. That you are not "equally" involved.

2TexasTornados said:

My wife and Mr. P have established a marriage-quality relationship. He's inside our secure fortress of emotional love. I'm now sharing my wife's emotions with another man.

Well, yes you are. Now, let me ask you this. Is your marriage suffering in any way due to this? Does she treat you any worse than she did before?

Quote

Mr. P has always been a good friend, but now I see him as a competitor. He's identified my wife as his soul mate, and would leave Mrs. P for my wife if given 1/2 the chance.

You do not have to see him as a competitor. You could see him as a partner in making your wife happy. And what control do you or Mrs. TT have over Mr. P's feelings? None. You can decide whether or not you let his feelings control you. I speak to you from experience. In the beginning, Kitten would have taken Gator away from me in a heartbeat.

2TexasTornados said:

So now the only thing that keeps my marriage to Mrs. 2TT secure is her devotion to me. But my entire security perimeter has been breached...

2TexasTornados said:

If Mrs 2TT dedication to me wavered, I'd be instantly ruined. In every category.

This was the case before she and he started this relationship. Really, all you had was her word then that she would stay with you. You have her word now as well. You either take the risk of trusting her or you don't.

2TexasTornados said:

One of the things that went wrong was our vacation in Vegas. We had just established the sexual grounds 2 weeks earlier. Mrs. 2TT and I had always been same room swingers, but Mr. P successfully negotiated a closed door separate room overnight love-a-thon. And then made it ALL 4 NIGHTS! That right there pushed me too hard, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Make that terrible. I went off on the 3rd day with Mrs. 2TT and to her credit she handled it with remarkable maturity. At the time I pulled the all-stop lever, but softened later when the rum wore off and reluctantly allowed them a closed door session with a 1.5 hour limit. I was afraid of damaging her commitment to me, and in doing so would lose the whole woman. I'm still in danger.

Here you are wrong. What went wrong in Vegas is that you didn't communicate your feelings on the subject the way you should have. I speak from experience here as well. You should never let yourself be pushed into anything. I was a doormat for a while because I was afraid of losing Gator. Until I realized what I just told you above. And you cannot live a life always repressing your feelings. That in itself will ruin your marriage with Mrs. TT more than her relationship with Mr. P. You have to be honest about them with yourself and with your wife.

The rest of your post seems to be more of your self destructing thoughts fueled by your pain and resentment. Stop it.

You may be talking with Mrs. TT but are you both listening to what the other is saying? Or are you too busy trying to make sure she gets where you are coming from? You both need to listen as well as talk.

I know that I may have come across harsh here. I'm sorry if you feel that is the case. Please do not forget when you read this and think about it, that I have been speaking to you from experience for the most part.

As an afterthought, I really should explain that I am not trying to convince you that poly is the way to go. I am not trying to convert anyone.

AskMeOk · September 19, 2009

I would not use the term "progressed" as a euphemism for "no longer communicating with each other."

Go back to square one and re-communicate that this is not meeting your needs.

Sunswept · September 19, 2009

One of the things that went wrong was our vacation in Vegas. We had just established the sexual grounds 2 weeks earlier. Mrs. 2TT and I had always been same room swingers, but Mr. P successfully negotiated a closed door separate room overnight love-a-thon. And then made it ALL 4 NIGHTS! That right there pushed me too hard, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Make that terrible. I went off on the 3rd day with Mrs. 2TT and to her credit she handled it with remarkable maturity. At the time I pulled the all-stop lever, but softened later when the rum wore off and reluctantly allowed them a closed door session with a 1.5 hour limit. I was afraid of damaging her commitment to me, and in doing so would lose the whole woman. I'm still in danger.

Here you are wrong. What went wrong in Vegas is that you didn't communicate your feelings on the subject the way you should have. I speak from experience here as well. You should never let yourself be pushed into anything. I was a doormat for a while because I was afraid of losing Gator. Until I realized what I just told you above. And you cannot live a life always repressing your feelings. That in itself will ruin your marriage with Mrs. TT more than her relationship with Mr. P. You have to be honest about them with yourself and with your wife.

I agree with gatorvol64 totally.

OK, my current thinking is that as long as Mr 2TT feels as threatened as he does, no compromise is possible because Mr 2TT's fears are overwhealming his perspective. Also, Mr 2TT please, please, please re-read your last post. I hope you can see the pattern of how you constantly 1) refuse to "own" your own feelings -and 2) you subtily push the responsibility for the consequences of your not "owning" your own feelings onto others. The paragraph that you wrote that gatorvol64 quoted above is a perfect example of that. I do not mean to sound harsh, but this is what I am seeing. I am hoping you can also see this too now that it has been pointed out?

Another example is when you say you are not angry! You are angry! Own it! That you are probably more angry at yourself for getting your relationship into this fix than anything else is one thing, but then projecting that anger and the fears and doubts that creates onto others is really making things a lot more confusing for you! If Mrs 2TT says she can forego the poly relationship with Mr P, thrust her that she can! You "own" your feelings...let Mrs 2TT "own" her own feelings! Will she experience a sense of loss? Maybe, but let her "own" that for herself! Don't try to take that away from her and keep things stuck! Letting her do that will let you "own" your own sense of loss that playtime is over... for now!

As for what to do to survive all this: Read what VegasLee already posted until you really understand what he is saying.

Mr 2TT, you have to stop both swinging and any poly adventures because right now your fears are clouding your perceptions. Your desires to play overcame your own intentions to restrict things to swinging and your own self imposed rules, so you can't swing. Your lack of understanding of what poly actually is and your talent for putting yourself and others into false double binds means that right now you can't do poly either. You want to pull the stop lever, yet you say you cannot! False double bind! You are sending Mrs 2TT mixed messages.

Mrs 2TT, I am hoping you can see what is happening here, and I am hoping that you can put your intentions to preserve your relationship ahead of your desire to fulfill your long standing feelings with Mr P, you have said you can do that and I believe you. I hope you can also see that although it might not be fair, you may have to be the one to pull the stop lever and keep it pulled if Mr 2TT waffles and can't get congruent with what he really wants to have happen, and until Mr 2TT is capable of congruently expressing and acting on his feelings in real time. Mr 2TT is feeling far to threatened to be making good choices or seeing things clearly, and hey that is OK, it happens. Once Mr 2TT's fears subside, maybe you two can have a more constructive discussion about things, but right now I do not see how you can, Mr 2TT's fears are too severe for that to happen right now.

No one is "right" and no one is "wrong", it is what it is. What needs to happen is for you two is to take your relationship back to a point where the sex and love is about and between you two alone. For now anyway.

ncmd_couple · September 19, 2009

Mr. 2TT,

Sigh, Mr. P is a lawyer who you feel can ruin your whole life. You have said that he and Mrs. P have had a rocky life together, and you fear that he is targeting Mrs. 2TT, and that you are screwed. Yet, you continue to flirt with Mrs. P and seduced her?

The thing that brought me to a poly frame of mind is that I can care for, and love, more than one woman. That doesn't mean that I have to, but I should be able to do so.

It sounds to me like you have allowed drama from Mr. and Mrs. P's life to infect your and Mrs. 2TTs relationship. And quite frankly, you're facilitating that? You aren't sexually attracted to Mrs. P, but you moved forward anyway?

Buddy, you need to take your soul out and look at it and decide what you really want to happen here. Over the last few days I have had my wife's ex-husband here visiting. They have an emotional bond of being married previously and having a daughter, and hopefully grandchildren together. I accept that with open arms. Because I love my wife and he is a nice guy.

Bury your fears or address them honestly with you wife. Then the two or you have to do the same with Mr. and Mrs. P. Because as much as you feel threatened, Mrs. P is the one who is totally getting screwed and doesn't know it!

couplers · September 20, 2009

QUOTE: "My wife and Mr. P have established a marriage-quality relationship. He's inside our secure fortress of emotional love. I'm now sharing my wife's emotions with another man. Mr. P has always been a good friend, but now I see him as a competitor. He's identified my wife as his soul mate..."

You are not sharing your wife's emotions with another man, they are separate emotions for you which are entirely much stronger as demonstrated repeatedly by her actions. She did all the stuff you wanted: group sex, girl-on-girl, etc. Do you know how rare of a chance you have to give her this gift? - "Honey I love you madly, spend the weekend with Mr. P so I can tell you how much I love you when you get back. I'll mow the lawn." Maybe there is a chance Mr. P would leave his wife for yours, but there is NO chance that yours would leave you.

Mr. ncmd couple put it well about loving his wife so much that he lets her define and maintain a relationship, whatever it is, with her ex-husband.

lustylearning · September 21, 2009

My wife and Mr. P have established a marriage-quality relationship. He's inside our secure fortress of emotional love. I'm now sharing my wife's emotions with another man. Mr. P has always been a good friend, but now I see him as a competitor. He's identified my wife as his soul mate, and would leave Mrs. P for my wife if given 1/2 the chance.

If this really is true, you guys probably shouldn't be playing with the couple at all, because he IS a competitor. His wife should be his primary concern. If she is not, that leaves yours, and him with nothing to lose. Mrs. 2T may be devoted, but this is begging, borrowing, and stealing trouble.

bbarnsworth · September 21, 2009

Good question. I felt like constantly trolling the internet for new people for sex was dangerous, and it felt slutty. Meeting new strangers and trusting them to be D&D free would eventually lend itself to a disastrous mistake. I wanted a close, secure couple that we could trust, see regularly and look forward to weekend parties with them. A poly relationship embodied that for me. We would be equally involved with some yet unknown couple that would add fantasy to our lives. Our emotional love, after all was secure and not available for distribution.

I think you made a mistake here, and communication became unclear from this conclusion. What is polyamory to you? I think you need to clarify that between yourself and your wife, and be very, very clear with each other.

If you are each to have a regular sex partner, are you free to fall in love with that person or will you remain emotionally monogamous?

You can maintain a long term sexual relationship with someone without falling in love with them. The two are not necessarily tied to each other. I think your wife wants to be able to fall in love with someone, and you do not. I think what you thought polyamory is is not what your wife thinks of polyamory.

Polyamory is NOT having a regular sex partner. Polyamory doesn't even necessarily involve sex.

Mrs. P was always there, but really just part of the scenery...and I never had a sexual attraction to her.

Then agreeing to seduce her was taking one for the home team. This shouldn't have happened, most especially if you were trying to help this couple into the lifestyle (which is apparently the case).

It's good that you've since developed a friendship that includes sex, but it could have easily turned into drama.

My wife and Mr. P have established a marriage-quality relationship. He's inside our secure fortress of emotional love. I'm now sharing my wife's emotions with another man. Mr. P has always been a good friend, but now I see him as a competitor. He's identified my wife as his soul mate, and would leave Mrs. P for my wife if given 1/2 the chance. So now the only thing that keeps my marriage to Mrs. 2TT secure is her devotion to me. But my entire security perimeter has been breached, and I have these two lovers-in-waiting moving about the cabin freely.

* 1000^1000.

Then this relationship with Mr. P ends. Now. Not tomorrow, not after the next time.... NOW.

Sometimes I think Mr. P used his wife as a Trojan horse to gain unrestricted access to my wife.

There's enough bad things going on here to not need to ascribe ill intent to other actions where you do have have certainty.

Mr. P successfully negotiated a closed door separate room overnight love-a-thon. And then made it ALL 4 NIGHTS! That right there pushed me too hard, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

In that situation, and in any future swinging situation, have the courage to say NO and stick to it. No means no. It's a fundamental principle in swinging. Either you're onboard, or you're not. Nobody, least of all a potential swing partner of your wife's, should ever attempt to convince you to do something. You should have skidded this thing to a halt right then and there. The onus of that responsibility is on YOU. Putting strain on your wife because of your incorrect decision is unfair to her. You allowed it to happen. What your action must be now is to not back down from NO. Don't blame your wife. Blame yourself. But, take corrective action to prevent the situation from being worse because of your past mistake. You don't have to keep making the same mistake.

and reluctantly allowed them a closed door session with a 1.5 hour limit. I was afraid of damaging her commitment to me, and in doing so would lose the whole woman. I'm still in danger.

Another bad decision. You don't get yourself to a happy place away from her being in love and having sex with this person by continuing to agree to them having sex together. That's like saying "Hey gosh, I really don't like these gallons of acid being poured on me. Can we please knock it down to a cup of acid? Why, thank you!"

The original fantasy is over. She's offered to "whore herself out" to satisfy my fantasy. Anyone would agree that's a terrible idea.

Yes, it is.

There aren't any good solutions at this point.

Yes, there are.

Look, swinging in the grand scheme of a marriage is nothing. So is introducing another couple into yours as a quad poly arrangement. Your first duty and responsibility is to your marriage to Mrs. 2TT. Anything else is so far in the background it's not even worth talking about what 'place' it is. It has no place at the table. Period. Any secondary relationships don't have the right to destroy your marriage. They don't have a right to be present and get attention when your own marriage is suffering from it.

I was in a poly triad for a short time many years ago. I was the 2nd guy, the non-primary. The wife of the couple and I were still very much in love, but she ended it because her marriage was becoming strained. It had nothing to do with us being in a poly triad. But, the triad was distracting them from their own marriage. They needed to focus on their marriage. It was a very equitable and happy ending to the triad. I'm still very much friends with the woman in question, and I know the other man bears no ill will towards me. We handled it maturely, and safely with regards to their marriage. It was a good ending.

If I stop this Mrs. P will be hurt,

If you don't stop it she will be hurt too. Not stopping it doesn't prevent hurt. And so what if she is hurt? I don't mean to be callous, but her problems are nothing to your concern for your own marriage. Nothing.

Mr. P will be resentful,

Again, so what? You owe nothing to him. Your first and only responsibility in this scenario is to your own marriage.

and Mrs. 2TT never be the same.

She's not the same now. We all change, grow and adapt over time. You're not going to get your wife back to the way she was before this began no matter what happens. That corner's already been turned. You can't change it now. What you can do is avoid additional damage.

STOP pouring acid over yourself.

TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for your poor decisions.

START making good decisions.

FOCUS on your marriage.

That friendship would be over, my marriage damaged, and I will be the bad guy. If it goes on ahead Mrs. P will continue to be happy, Mr. P and Mrs 2TT will be free to continue chipping away at my marriage and I'll be left with a self-defeating worry that consumes my happy-go-lucky demeanor.

And you will allow the train wreck to get worse and worse and worse with no happy end in sight. Can you not see this? This has to end. NOW.

I think I'll become a motivational poster for having defacing the most beautiful thing I've ever had. I've lead a charmed life, and this is the only time I've ever wanted an undo button. I'm confident we'll survive this, I just wish I knew how.

That UNDO button starts with ending the relationship with this other couple.

Look, if my wife and I had been regularly swinging with another couple, and everything was hunky dory, and then that couple said "We're sorry. But, we need to step back from swinging and focus on our relationship." we would utterly respect that.

Mrs. 2TT, if you really are as devoted to your husband as your writing here conveys, you need to drop the relationship with Mr. P. Immediately. Maybe you can renew the friendship (and only friendship) at some point in the future. But, I'd send an e-mail to Mr. P and inform him that the sexual and emotional relationship has to end. Make it clear you're not finding fault with him, but that he needs to be out of your sexual and emotional life. As far as friendship is concerned, maybe in the future, but for now you need to break contact.

Mrs. 2TT if you apply pressure to Mr. 2TT to continue this relationship with Mr. P, you might as well stick a fork in your marriage. Make your choice. Either Mr. P or your husband. Not making the choice and trying to play both sides of the fence will guarantee pain and anguish for all involved.

In short, to both of you...

If either of you attempts to continue this relationship with Mr. and Mrs. P, you're actively destroying your own marriage.

Get over it, and move on.

mixtupcpl · September 22, 2009

I see this whole thing as a very specific and somewhat tragic occurance. This doesn't fit our definition of "poly" either. Its not even remotely a "poly quad". It is two old flames using swinging as a gateway to traveling a path they had thought lost forever.

Mrs 2TT is exploring an unrequited love. The first post acknowledges that Mr P was a love that pre-dates her marriage that circumstance never allowed because at that time she was following vanilla rules.

We *completely* agree with bbarnsworth. Mrs Mix and I, now that we understand the terms, actually venture down the poly path. We both get emotionally involved with play partners, play separately, and even explore long term *secondary* relationships.

We do not have "old loves" from *before* we knew each other that we pine for. If we did, we would *not* turn those sexual. You guys now have and yes, it was not a good idea. The only way to fix that mistake is to end it. There is no "fair" or "unfair" in this. If you both want the marriage to survive, that is the only way really.

I dont agree that the way to go is to openly accept the situation and just try to all be happy. No one was on equal footing here. Mr P really seems to be a guy who regretted missing the boat on Mrs 2TT. He got a very unusual and GOLDEN opportunity when this topic of swinging was brought up. I dont expect that Mr P's bond to Mrs. P (which doesnt even seem to have come up) mattered much to him in this. I also expect that if Mrs. 2TT were to say "hey Mr P, screw this... lets run away together", he would do it. That doesnt make for a good play partner or a "poly" situation.

Mrs. 2TT, I can completely understand where this could seem like an amazing opportunity to have both the guy you married and the guy you've always wondered about having missed, but surely you can see that this can't work.

I think for this situation folks have to step outside of some of the usual assumptions and look at this really objectively. It VERY much looks like an essentially vanilla guy who is getting a chance to fix a mistake (never having gone for the girl he loves) I mean really... How quickly did this progress from "ok, lets try swinging!" to "get my wife out of here so I can spend an entire vacation alone with the gal Ive always loved"?

The fact that the feeling is very much mutual is incredibly dangerous.

Mrs. 2TT, a lot of power and responsibility has been placed in your hands really. We dont envy you as it cannot be easy.

JustAskJulie · September 22, 2009

The truth is that the only thing that ever holds any of us to our partner is our love and devotion. If that wavers (for any reason) splits happen. There was never more than that holding her to you. It's just that now you've opened a door for her to expand a relationship that was already there. YOU opened the door, he walked in. As you said, he'd leave his wife if YOUR wife gave him the impetus to do so, but she doesn't have that desire. She has stated clearly here and to you that she LOVES YOU and would give it all up FOR YOU. That should say enough.

I would not suggest that you ask her to choose at this point. She does love you, if you give her that ultimatum then no one wins. Accept her love, accept that she has CHOSEN YOU. There is no requirement for you to play with Mrs P, but I would suggest that you keep the lines of communication open in all 4 ways, and make sure that everyone is aware of what it going on and any change in status.

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We were swingers but now my wife wants to be in a polyamory relationship with another

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