What is the argument against successful swingers?

[DarkVoyuer 15]

I am a single person who has studied swinging for over 15 years. What I can not comprehend is how someone could morally object to swinging marriages that last over 10 years. If that marriage is happy and fulfilled, what is the valid objection? I know many couples on this board have dealt with objecting parents and close friends. When you tell them that your marriage is a success, how do they respond? I just don't get monogamists who uphold that monogamy is "the way" even when it requires discounting facts that contend otherwise. Can successful swingers who have dealt with objecting parents and friends provide me with some insight? Thanks.

[VegasLee 1,486]

It is easy for most people that have not experienced something to object to it. That is human nature.

 

Swinging is not for everyone. Honestly, it is not for most. I would say that 99.5% of Americans can not be in this Lifestyle and have their marriage last for a long period of time.

 

Just because it works for one couple does not mean it will work for the next.

 

We are one of those couples you are talking about. We have been together for a very long time. Six kids, Ten grandkids and counting. The Lifestyle has worked for us while we have watched most other couples we have known both in and out of the Lifestyle crash and burn. Being in the Lifestyle does not mean you are going to stay together.

 

I don't think there is a real answer to your question since in Today's Lifestyle I don't see it helping keep a couple together longer or better then those not in the Lifestyle.

 

You have doctors and counselors that tell people all the time that Swinging will not keep you together. Most of those have no personal experience in this Lifestyle so they object to it even if you show them a couple like us.

 

We know other couples that have been together 30, 40 or 50+ years that are swingers as we do couples that have only has sex with their spouse for all those years. How can someone object to someone not being in the Lifestyle and being married? It works for some and not for others.

 

It goes both ways.

 

"The Way" is what works for you and those you are involved with. There is no one "The Way" in todays world.

 

You are asking the same question about Swingers as many do about gays. How can that work? My best friend, who is gay just lost his "other" after them being together for 34 years. He died. Their way worked for them longer then most other couples in this country but many still to this day tell him it was best that JJ died because it was not "The Way" life is supposed to be. He just looks at them in amazement when they tell him that.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I haven't upheld it to objecting parents or family because it's none of their business. But, when it comes down to it people will object to what they don't understand no matter what you tell them. If you tell them that your relationship is rock solid they will try to poke holes in it, or convince themselves that surely there is something that is really tearing you apart and it will catch up to you in the long run. In the end, the bulk of the swinging marriages that part the divorce has nothing to do with swinging and if it does it's usually being one of the partners never wanted to swing to begin with. And that's part of the problem, outsiders never know what your true relationship is and they will always try to find a problem that doesn't exist.

[Chicup 41]

I think a part of the issue is you only hear of swingers as a vanilla vaguely or when it doesn't work.

 

So someone gets a divorce and you hear about how they were swingers, well obviously thats the reason......

 

You might not know your neighbors have been swingers for 30 years though.

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

Can successful swingers who have dealt with objecting parents and friends provide me with some insight? Thanks.

I don't think you'll have many replies from swingers who have told parents or friends that they swing.

 

Those who have reported that they were found out usually say it was by accident, without ever intending others to know.

 

What I can not comprehend is how someone could morally object to swinging marriages that last over 10 years.

Your time line makes no sense to me. If you are saying that after swinging for 10 years and remaining married, you become "successful" swingers, I don't see this as definitive of success. I think you're trying to say that if a couple stays married and swings for a set time then that is proof that swinging can be good for some couples and won't hurt a marriage. But I don't see it as a compelling argument or convincing anyone who opposes swinging. There is little point in trying to turn people to be pro swinging.

 

Couples can explore swinging early in a marriage or late into it, both can find that it doesn't work out or that they've had their fill of exploring that path and they quit within a few years. Does that mean it wasn't successful for them? I don't think so. Like other interests we explore, some we continue with for years, some we don't.

 

With swingers, marriages will fail just as they do with non-swingers. And the reasons likely have little or nothing to do with swinging.

 

I don't believe in trying to convince anyone that swinging is okay. If family or friends found out we were swingers, I'd try my best to avoid arguing about the subject. I have no interest in talking people into accepting swinging or accepting us as swingers.

 

What is the argument against successful swingers?

 

"It's not morally right. It's sinful. It's not what God wants. It will cause the end of your marriage."

 

Long ago I learned to stay away from discussions where people gave me the above reasons for anything they objected to.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

VegasLee said:

It is easy for most people that have not experienced something to object to it. That is human nature.

This is sad but true. However, how come the same principle does not apply to monogamy. Look how many people have failed in monogamous marriages repeatedly. Yet, those same people will boldly tell you that your lifestyle will not produce the level of love that a monogamous relationship will.

 

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Swinging is not for everyone. Honestly, it is not for most. I would say that 99.5% of Americans can not be in this Lifestyle and have their marriage last for a long period of time.

Is this primarily because of their biology or is it because they refuse to control their feelings of sexual exclusivity?

 

 

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We are one of those couples you are talking about. We have been together for a very long time. Six kids, Ten grandkids and counting. The Lifestyle has worked for us while we have watched most other couples we have known both in and out of the Lifestyle crash and burn. Being in the Lifestyle does not mean you are going to stay together.

I guess what I don't understand is how can anyone close to you have an objection toward what you do if you have long lasting and successful marriage. It is absolutely baffling to me.

 

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You have doctors and counselors that tell people all the time that Swinging will not keep you together. Most of those have no personal experience in this Lifestyle so they object to it even if you show them a couple like us.[/Quote]

I can see this is part of the reason for their objection but I know several childless individuals who believe parenting is fulfilling. I just don't believe this reason primarily applies to the objection toward swinging.

 

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We know other couples that have been together 30, 40 or 50+ years that are swingers as we do couples that have only has sex with their spouse for all those years. How can someone object to someone not being in the Lifestyle and being married? It works for some and not for others.

I agree.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

LikeMinds321 said:

I don't think you'll have many replies from swingers who have told parents or friends that they swing.

I think it is sad that most swingers feel they have to remain in the closet. I have heard so many stories of swingers going out of their way to conceal their lifestyle. Does this occasionally bother you? I know that you have to accept some things as they are but are there times where you are outraged by the brutal unfairness? I am not a swinger and I can see how some swingers with courage flat out rebel against the blind loyalty towards monogamy. Perhaps that is a reason why I probably would not consider swinging. I would feel that concealing this lifestyle is an insult to my pride. I don't know how you guys continue to put up with this non-sense from mainstream society.

 

 

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Your time line makes no sense to me. If you are saying that after swinging for 10 years and remaining married, you become "successful" swingers, I don't see this as definitive of success.

My point in presenting this example is to refute the argument that swinging innately puts a marriage at severe risk. Many people claim present horror stories of swingers falling in love with their playmates which ultimately leads to divorce in their marriages. I do agree that there is truly NO definition of a successful marriage.

 

 

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But I don't see it as a compelling argument or convincing anyone who opposes swinging. There is little point in trying to turn people to be pro swinging.

I guess you are trying to say there is NO reason which will convince anti-swingers even if you have a 25 year swinging marriage. I think their attitude makes no sense. How can someone arrogantly declare that your lifestyle is harmful when you have a successful marriage? I just find that attitude irritating.

 

 

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What is the argument against successful swingers?

 

"It's not morally right. It's sinful. It's not what God wants. It will cause the end of your marriage.

I would look at them and ask WHY? Do they realize that their reasons are very shallow? If you are arguing with a secular monogamist, I don't see how they can look at themselves with intellectual self respect and maintain that position. Monogamy was invented to protect marriage. If it is not needed to protect marriages from falling apart, what is the moral purpose of it? These are questions that monogamists fail to ask themselves. It's sad that swingers feel the need to accommodate monogamists' disgust of the swinging lifestyle by hiding it.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

I think it is sad that most swingers feel they have to remain in the closet. I have heard so many stories of swingers going out of their way to conceal their lifestyle. Does this occassionally bother you? I know that you have to accept some things as they are but are there times where you are outraged by the brutal unfairness? I am not a swinger and I can see how some swingers with courage flatout rebel against the blind loyalty towards monogammy. Perhaps that is a reason why I probably would not consider swinging. I would feel that concealing this lifestyle is an insult to my pride. I don't know how you guys continue to put up with this non-sense from mainstream society.

 

Even prior to our swinging years, I wasn't one to discuss my sex life with others, nor did I really care to hear about theirs. So, not telling folks that we swing really isn't a thing for us. It's a very small part of who we are, so I don't feel the need to come out to the world.

 

I actually enjoy the concealment in a way. We've talked on here before about being part of a "Secret Society", for lack of a better description. It's fun to us to have this separate life that very few know about.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

JustAskJulie said:

I haven't upheld it to objecting parents or family because it's none of their business. But, when it comes down to it people will object to what they don't understand no matter what you tell them.

 

 

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If you tell them that your relationship is rock solid they will try to poke holes in it, or convince themselves that surely there is something that is really tearing you apart and it will catch up to you in the long run.

 

I absolutely agree with you. Can you please share some of ways where they attempt "to poke holes" in the credibility of your relationship. I am very curious. I am sure they are very comical? Please entertain me.

 

Like I said in a previous reply, I just find it extremely unfair that swingers feel the need to conceal their lifestyle to accommodate the moral revulsion towards swinging by large segments of mainstream society.

 

You mentioned that people will object to what they don't understand. Although heterosexism still exist, gays and lesbians have a significantly higher standing in mainstream society than swingers. However, most of the straight people who defend their rights have no interest in homosexuality. Thus, it could be argued that these people do not understand same sex desire. Why is this movement been significantly more successful than the swinging movement.

 

JustAskJulie said:

In the end, the bulk of the swinging marriages that part the divorce has nothing to do with swinging and if it does it's usually being one of the partners never wanted to swing to begin with. And that's part of the problem, outsiders never know what your true relationship is and they will always try to find a problem that doesn't exist.

 

From my observation, I noticed that the divorce rate for swingers is around 10%. Is this accurate?

[socolais 696]

DarkVoyuer said:

Like I said in a previous reply, I just find it extremely unfair that swingers feel the need to conceal their lifestyle to accommodate the moral revulsion towards swinging by large segments of mainstream society.

 

I don't really know about it being "unfair", but it's simply a path of least resistance for us. I'm open to discussion with anyone that wants my opinions and observations. But when they describe me as morally bankrupt, the conversation ends.

 

When we talk about marriage success among swingers, not only do we have to define success but we have to define swingers too. Mark Twain said, "there's lies, damn lies, and statistics". Given the general concealment of the swingers, meaningful numbers are near impossible.

 

If I'm willing to believe what I read on the internet, the societal default of strict monogamy traces back to the early days of the Catholic church - St. Augustine was an influential proponent of sexual asceticism. Behaviors that violate those puritanical values are quickly labeled immoral without analyzing their potential value.

 

I think cheaters sometimes get more forgiveness from general society than us misguided swingers.

[VegasLee 1,486]

 

Like I said in a previous reply, I just find it extremely unfair that swingers feel the need to conceal their lifestyle to accomodate the moral revulsion towards swinging by large segments of mainstream society.

 

 

From my observation, I noticed that the divorce rate for swingers is around 10%. Is this accurate?

 

First off, we don't hide from anyone. We are just as out as people that are not in the Lifestyle. We have never hidden it. Our children know and everyone else that knows us knows our Lifestyle. Many/Most will stay in the closet because they have their own reasons for doing so. I know 100's of Swingers that are "out" and have no problem with what anyone else thinks about their choices in life.

 

As in your other thread. please show a real source for your divorce rate. After thirty years in this Lifestyle and many more in Life I don't believe it is anywhere close to being that low. Once upon a time, many years ago it was lower but in the Lifestyle today I feel the divorce rate would be close to what the "regular" world is in America. I see 800 to 1000 people that claim to be swingers each week and I know for a fact that their rate of divorce is much higher then what you keep quoting.

[SW_PA_Couple 4,024]

I am a single person who has studied swinging for over 15 years. What I can not comprehend is how someone could morally object to swinging marriages that last over 10 years. If that marriage is happy and fulfilled, what is the valid objection? I know many couples on this board have dealt with objecting parents and close friends. When you tell them that your marriage is a success, how do they respond? I just don't get monogamists who uphold that monogamy is "the way" even when it requires discounting facts that contend otherwise. Can successful swingers who have dealt with objecting parents and friends provide me with some insight? Thanks.

 

I have no trouble comprehending the moral objections. They typically derive from religious and social traditions that go back thousands of years. I do not pretend to know better than they. Happily, we live within a system that is based upon the rule of law rather than moral behaviour.

 

I will not be able to provide insight on how to deal with the objections of parents or friends. Have never had to deal with it. Might be interesting to hear from people who have.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

I don't really know about it being "unfair", but it's simply a path of least resistance for us. I'm open to discussion with anyone that wants my opinions and observations. But when they describe me as morally bankrupt, the conversation ends.

 

I find that judgement of you being "morally bankrupt" completely out of line! It is simply an incorrect perception of your lifestyle. These types of attitudes make no sense. What is the point of the moral code of sexual abstinence outside of marriage when swingers really have no need for it? Why should you be loyal to a moral ideal just for the sake of it? If I were a swinger I would have less of a thick skin.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

VegasLee said:

First off, we don't hide from anyone. We are just as out as people that are not in the Lifestyle. We have never hidden it. Our children know and everyone else that knows us knows our Lifestyle. Many/Most will stay in the closet because they have their own reasons for doing so.

 

I think most swingers are in the closet because of society finds it morally revolting. Do you agree? I don't blame them for hiding their lifestyle. It is just a shame that it has to be that way.

 

 

Once upon a time, many years ago it was lower but in the Lifestyle today I feel the divorce rate would be close to what the "regular" world is in America. I see 800 to 1000 people that claim to be swingers each week and I know for a fact that their rate of divorce is much higher then what you keep quoting.

I have read several sources. From my understanding, all of the sources claim that the swingers' divorce rate is lower than traditional marriage. This is my personal research. Perhaps there is research that will contend otherwise.

 

Even if the divorce rate was equal to traditional marriage, it clearly proves that swinging can be effective for many people. If I were a swinger, I would not be as polite in responding to negative myths towards this lifestyle. I would take it extremely personal. It amazes me how many swingers seem to handle these attitudes.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

Even prior to our swinging years, I wasn't one to discuss my sex life with others, nor did I really care to hear about theirs. So, not telling folks that we swing really isn't a thing for us. It's a very small part of who we are, so I don't feel the need to come out to the world.

 

I actually enjoy the concealment in a way. We've talked on here before about being part of a "Secret Society", for lack of a better description. It's fun to us to have this separate life that very few know about.

I understand. Do you ever find it a burden to conceal your lifestyle? Is it a challenge to conceal it?

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

I am a single person who has studied swinging for over 15 years...

You've studied swinging for some time. Have you ever been a swinger, or attempted to swing?

 

If not, why not?

 

Have you always been single?

 

Why are you concerned with how swingers are viewed by non-swingers?

[socolais 696]

DarkVoyuer, I see you on the outside looking into our world and wondering why we don't march in the parades with our swinger flags held high. I think this suggests there are many other things about us that you have failed to comprehend.

 

Generally, we don't need to recruit new members to our ranks. When people are ready to accept swinging, they'll find us on their own. If we try to influence that process to enlarge our numbers, we fundamentally disrespect their relationships. When the curious discover us and begin their exploration, we generally advise them of the potential dangers and suggest that they be sure of themselves before they take any action. That strategy is best for them and for us.

 

I think it's fairly easy to suffer fools when they spout moral judgements in ignorance. I'm unlikely to change the way they think and keeping them away from the party makes it more fun for me. The bitch is when they are influential in the community and try to stop the parties - we have more to loose than they do.

 

I'm also curious about your motivations and relevant history. Fifteen years is a LONG time for the stereotypical single male to study swinger's orgies and not pursue the perception of "easily available sex".

[two4youinswva 3,068]

I understand. Do you ever find it a burden to conceal your lifestyle? Is it a challenge to conceal it?

 

In a word: No.

[VegasLee 1,486]

DarkVoyuer said:

This is my personal research. Perhaps there is research that will contend otherwise.

 

If I were a swinger, I would not be as polite in responding to negative myths towards this lifestyle. I would take it extremely personal. It amazes me how many swingers seem to handle these attitudes.

 

The problem with most research is that it is done by people that are not swingers such as yourself so you really don't know what to look for.

 

As far as taking it personal, why. What does it matter what others think about my life. It is my life, not theirs and their opinions really do not matter to me.

 

I know my life and it is my life, it works for me and I have never found a reason in 30+ years in the Lifestyle to stand and defend it to those that are not in it. I have had to stand in court and defend my Lifestyle but honestly, the judge was not berating me for being in the Lifestyle, just wanted to know what it was about so that she could make her decision. I was being judged but not being judged at the same time.

 

Why not be polite when asked questions? Being anything else will make you out to be an ass and then they will also think all Swinger are ass's.

 

Why do must swingers handle it so well? Because it does not matter what others think. Really pretty simple. Don't make life or this Lifestyle harder then it has to be. You will enjoy it much more.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

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As far as taking it personal, why. What does it matter what others think about my life. It is my life, not theirs and their opinions really do not matter to me.

 

I am wondering if you simply are saying that people who think you are morally bankrupt is not that bad compared to other things. What would be worse is if you were viewed as a former sex offender. I guess you are saying is that at least you are not getting killed for being a swinger. Thus, a couple of people talking a bunch of crap about your lifestyle really is not that bad. When you look at it from that perspective, I could understand it.

 

I think you mentioned that I was a swinger. Actually, I am single person who finds it annoying that monogamy is respected as an universal moral ideal. The problem with monogamy is not people practicing. It is when it is promoted as an infallible ideal which everyone should conform to.

 

Note: Heterosexism is the feeling that heterosexual relationships are superior to homosexual relationships.

 

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I know my life and it is my life, it works for me and I have never found a reason in 30+ years in the Lifestyle to stand and defend it to those that are not in it.

 

Some gays probably feel the same way you do. They are gay and they feel as long as they're happy there is no reason to defend it.

 

 

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Why not be polite when asked questions? Being anything else will make you out to be an ass and then they will also think all Swinger are ass's.

I agree with you if the person truly wants to find out what swinging is. However, don't you find some questions absolutely irritating.

 

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Why do must swingers handle it so well? Because it does not matter what others think. Really pretty simple. Don't make life or this Lifestyle harder then it has to be. You will enjoy it much more.

Do you think gays should adopt the swinger mentality in a sense that they should only focus on rectifying legal issues instead of social issues? It appears the gay movement focuses on social revolution and legal rights while swingers are more likely to focus solely on legal rights. I think what you are saying is that social revolution is simply not important in the swingers movement.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

socolais said:

If we try to influence that process to enlarge our numbers, we fundamentally disrespect their relationships. When the curious discover us and begin their exploration, we generally advise them of the potential dangers and suggest that they be sure of themselves before they take any action. That strategy is best for them and for us.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I do not believe swingers should have a movement to convert new members. But I do believe that the swinging community should make more of an effort to change its social image. The swinging community's social image is significantly worse than the gay community. Mainstream society generally considers swingers to be moral deviants, troubled or both. This perception is similar to how gays and lesbians were perceived in the 1950s. Unlike the gay movement, the swinger movement is not concerned about improving their social image.

 

 

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I think it's fairly easy to suffer fools when they spout moral judgements in ignorance. I'm unlikely to change the way they think and keeping them away from the party makes it more fun for me. The bitch is when they are influential in the community and try to stop the parties - we have more to loose than they do.

I would be concerned also about being fired from my job because of my lifestyle. The law protects gays not swingers from being fired.

 

 

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I'm also curious about your motivations and relevant history. Fifteen years is a LONG time for the stereotypical single male to study swinger's orgies and not pursue the perception of "easily available sex".

Well the textbook male would be absolutely ignorant on the FACT that swinger orgies are not as how they are perceived by modern society. As a matter of fact, most swingers do not have orgies. He also would ignorant on the FACT that couples in the swinging community are less likely to be on drugs and want to have sex with animals.

 

I find swinging fascinating, not simply because of the sex. I actually find it more interesting to compare the gay and swinging community. They share many similarities. The sad part is that the swinging community is miles behind the gay community in social image. IN addition, the swinging community does not have the legal protection that the gay community has. Swingers who are exposed could be terminated from employment with out protection.

[AskMeOk 148]

There isn't one, if you don't have an emotional issue with swinging(ers).

 

I think it is a real chicken and egg issue between what people believe and why they believe it. In other words, is sex wrong because of religion or is sex just wrong because one doesn't like it and can back that position up with a convenient religion?

 

It doesn't even have to be about sex or religion or morality or fidelity or...... whatever... the list is endless.

 

If you are living your life in a manner comfortable to YOU, disregarding the naysayers is your best course of action. They are not you and I suspect you don't want to become them (without regard to who you are or your mental health).

 

By the way, it isn't even a viable argument.... it is a sneaky use of coercion and guilt. Don't give them the upper hand by honoring their deceit by raising it to the level of a logical argument.... it just isn't.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

Mainstream society generally considers swingers to be moral deviants, troubled or both. This perception is similar to how gays and lesbians were perceived in the 1950s.

 

I don't completely agree with this.

Those that have that opinion of swingers STILL have that opinion of the gay community. They are the zealots, and their minds won't be changed. The only "good" sex to them is hetero sex, in the missionary position, lights out, and probably only for procreation.

 

More and more people are growing towards a libertarian (small L) view of swinging. Many of the comments at the bottom of swinger related news items are from people that say "It's not for me, but let them do what they want". Don't let the shrill voices of the vocal minority skew the perception.

[VegasLee 1,486]

 

I think you mentioned that I was a swinger. Actually, I am single person who finds it annoying that monogamy is respected as an universal moral ideal. The problem with monogamy is not people practicing. It is when it is promoted as an infallible ideal which everyone should conform to.

 

First off, being single in my view has nothing to do with you being a swinger or not. Remember the phrase "swinging singles"? That was around long before this "you must be a couple to be a swing" thing came along.

 

From reading your statements you appear to be way to hung up on what "others" say and set as their rules and have some idea that you should or should not follow them.

 

You would have to know me to understand, I don't care what others think or say about me. There are a few here in these forums that have known me for years and know this to be true. They also know I won't say something on the Internet that I won't say to a persons face. That is how I live and it works for me. Your mileage may vary.

 

Everyone in this world has their own set of rules that they live by. Some conform to what "others" think their life should be like and worry daily if they are living up to those standards. That does not work for me.

 

I have a wife, kids, grandkids. Those are the only people in this world I have to answer to. Sometimes they don't like my answers but that does not change things. Some of our kids do not like our lifestyle, others are cool with it. We don't push "us" on any of them. They live their lives, we live ours.

 

Anyone else can say anything to me that they want and that is not going to change my mood or the way I live. I don't let others effect my life or Lifestyle. I keep it pretty simple. I am in total control of how I feel each and every day of my life. I wake up and start each day new and let it go from there. Yesterday and those that speak poorly of me does not matter. I won't give them that power over me.

 

Do what works for you. You want to be a swinger, stand up and be one. You want to worry about what everyone else says and thinks about you, you can do that also. Many live their life that way and it works just great for them.

 

I don't question how others live their lives and I don't allow what they think of mine to guide me in the way I live. Really pretty simple if you think about it.

 

Something to remember, monogamy works for millions of people, who am I to question their choices and views?

 

Good luck to you no matter what you feel you have to do.

[AskMeOk 148]

Don't let the shrill voices of the vocal minority skew the perception.

 

Don't underestimate the ability of the sheeple and their elected officials to blindly follow that ignorant, narrow-minded, minority...

[two4youinswva 3,068]

Don't underestimate the ability of the sheeple and their elected officials to blindly follow that ignorant, narrow-minded, minority...

 

Never have, hence my admonition not to let them skew the perception.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

If you are living your life in a manner comfortable to YOU, disregarding the naysayers is your best course of action. They are not you and I suspect you don't want to become them (without regard to who you are or your mental health).

 

I think I am missing an opportunity to communicate something that is very important but is overlooked. The social image of swingers does not only pertain to what the average Joe or Jane says about it. It also pertains to the image of swingers that is projected through the media(i.e. television, internet, etc). Although there is some merit to the axiom, "Who gives a shit what others think.", if we carry that axiom to its full logical conclusion, blacks should not bitch about faulty stereotypes which are projected through the media. Gays should not care about being stereotyped as partygoers and promiscous. A movement that fights against misperceptions pertains more to the images projected by the media more than some clown who says, "Swingers are child molesters." I hope this clears up some misunderstanding.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

I don't completely agree with this.

Those that have that opinion of swingers STILL have that opinion of the gay community. They are the zealots, and their minds won't be changed. The only "good" sex to them is hetero sex, in the missionary position, lights out, and probably only for procreation.

I hope you are right. I hope I am in am some deluded person who is paranoid but from my experience, there are large segments of people in the heterosexual community who accept the gay lifestyle and find the swinging lifestyle a moral abomination. I think it is unfair to scapegoat only Christian fundamentalist. I have read many articles from atheists and agnostics who find swinging perverse. Many members of this board seem to find my view of debating and contesting the negative images of swingers as a weakness. I respect their opinion. However, suppose blacks simply were apathetic towards mainstream views of black man being sexually promiscuous. Is it a weakness or unhealthy when the black community challenges that perception? After all, why should blacks care what others think? I do understand that blacks are a group which is identified by their physical appearance and swingers are identified by their behavior. However, they are still sociological groups.

 

I am aware of people who choose not to be in the lifestyle. The intention behind a social movement is not to convert people to a lifestyle. It is to challenge false perceptions and stereotypes pertaining to a group. Trust me, I am not in the business of convincing people in being swingers. However, I am in the business of challenging falsehoods which are directed towards swingers. I understand many swingers feel the consequences of aggressively fighting the image of swingers is too great. Thus, they simply refuse to fight. I don't blame them and I do not want to convince them otherwise. However, I just want to present the view of the consequences of not standing up to mainstream society.

[AskMeOk 148]

DarkVoyuer said:

I think I am missing an opportunity to communicate something that is very important but is overlooked. The social image of swingers does not only pertain to what the average Joe or Jane says about it. It also pertains to the image of swingers that is projected through the media(i.e. television, internet, etc). Although there is some merit to the axiom, "Who gives a shit what others think.", if we carry that axiom to its full logical conclusion, blacks should not bitch about faulty stereotypes which are projected through the media. Gays should not care about being stereotyped as partygoers and promiscous. A movement that fights against misperceptions pertains more to the images projected by the media more than some clown who says, "Swingers are child molesters." I hope this clears up some misunderstanding.

 

The media sells what excites people to purchase the content. So, what about swinging is exciting to the vanilla world? Simply, I think, it positions itself opposite to what they are taught a marriage should be about. Swinging violates the "sanctity of marriage" and the "marriage vows." This isn't a misconception of swinging, it is the indoctrination that most folks receive, from childhood, regarding picking a life mate and that stands at opposition to swinging. (Religion is where we get our moral compasses, but don't pick on one religion, virtually all of them have the same position regarding marriage. Certainly, 99 and 44/100% of those in North America do.)

 

Change the curriculum, that will change the perception of swinging.....

[two4youinswva 3,068]

DarkVoyuer said:

I think it is unfair to scapegoat only Christian fundamentalist. I have read many articles from atheists and agnostics who find swinging perverse.

Cite your sources on the atheists and agnostics please.

 

Here's one for the fundies:

He Who Casts the First Stone

 

Some protesters, mostly young men in their teens and early 20s, wore black hoodies and military fatigues. The men, Amarillo would soon learn, were foot soldiers of Repent Amarillo, a new, militant evangelical group that advertises itself as “the Special Forces of spiritual warfare.”

 

Haven't seen any stories of atheists and agnostics doing this yet. They may find swinging perverse, but they don't tend to dress up like GI Joe and try to scare the shit out of people engaging in a private activity.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

First off, being single in my view has nothing to do with you being a swinger or not. Remember the phrase "swinging singles"? That was around long before this "you must be a couple to be a swing" thing came along.

 

From reading your statements you appear to be way to hung up on what "others" say and set as their rules and have some idea that you should or should not follow them.

Honestly, I care if I am disowned by my family. I DO care if being a swinger will significantly affect the relationship between my parents. So you are correct. Also keep in mind if we take your belief system to its logical conclusion, blacks should not care at all about what white people think. Blacks should stop whining about negative stereotypes which are allegedly promoted in the media. Gays should stop demanding that there are positive images of gay relationships on television dramas? Gays should stop going on talk shows and debate people who disagree with their lifestyle. Gays should not worry about being disowned by their family or being assaulted if they decide to come out of the closet. I am not saying that your axiom does not have merit but I do think it may be flawed if it is applied in the absolute degree.

 

First off, being single in my view has nothing to do with you being a swinger or not. Remember the phrase "swinging singles"? That was around long before this "you must be a couple to be a swing" thing came along.

I have always related swinging with married couples. Thanks for informing me. My studies focus on swinging couples who are married.

 

Something to remember, monogamy works for millions of people, who am I to question their choices and views?

I agree. However, I do question the view that monogamy is for EVERYONE. Even if the gay and swinging lifestyle was viewed as morally equal, heterosexual monogamy will still be the most dominant lifestyle in the country. Again, I simply challenge the notion that monogamy is the ONLY way. This is brutally reinforced by the majority of cultural media. Can you name me 5 popular television shows that promote the idea that open marriage and swinging may work for some people?

 

P.S. I mentioned that swingers are too polite in their disagreement with mainstream sexual morality. What I mean is that swingers are not aggressively contesting falsehoods regarding swinging. They are not emphatically contesting false accusations and false perceptions directed toward them. For some reason they do not see any similarity between their lifestyle and the lifestyle of homosexuals. Although there are differences, both groups are incorrectly judged by their sexual behavior.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

The media sells what excites people to purchase the content. So, what about swinging is exciting to the vanilla world? Simply, I think, it positions itself opposite to what they are taught a marriage should be about. Swinging violates the "sanctity of marriage" and the "marriage vows."This isn't a misconception of swinging, it is the indoctrination that most folks receive, from childhood, regarding picking a life mate and that stands at opposition to swinging.

I consider it a misconception because it is fundamentally false. The sanctity of marriage intrinsically has nothing to do with sexual abstinence outside of marriage. Swinging couples who have been married over 50 years are very likely to disprove this myth. I understand that you are simply stating the mainstream view but the reasoning behind the mainstream view still does not make sense. It simply says that human beings refuse to think for themselves in some situations. I applaud you for being so understanding. Frankly, I was a swinging couple I would not be as understanding or compassionate. This is why I can not consider swinging. Until, I can truly become compassionate and accepting of this indoctrination, I am not mentally ready to pursue behavior that is outside the bounds of mainstream society.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

two4youinswva said:

Haven't seen any stories of atheists and agnostics doing this yet. They may find swinging perverse, but they don't tend to dress up like GI Joe and try to scare the shit out of people engaging in a private activity.

 

I agree. I do think fundies are far more militant in their disgust of the swinging and gay lifestyle. However, you do not have to be a fundamentalist to be an employer and fire someone because you do not agree with their swinging lifestyle. There are stories of swingers being fired from their jobs simply because it was discovered that they were involved in swinger night clubs.

 

P.S. In Iran, you will be stoned to death if you are identified as a swinger. This show called Young Turks reported a couple who was sentenced for death because they were identified for swinging.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

I am not mentally ready to pursue behavior that is outside the bounds of mainstream society.

 

So, you're saying you can't swing until it is a mainstream activity, or at least accepted by the mainstream of society?

That's quite a set of handcuffs (chastity belt?) you've placed on yourself.

 

Ironically, we would get a little less satisfaction out of swinging if it was accepted or practiced by the mainstream.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

P.S. In Iran, you will be stoned to death if you are identified as a swinger. This show called Young Turks reported a couple who was sentenced for death because they were identified for swinging.

Wow! It's like they were following some type of religious fundamentalism or something, huh?

 

 

There are stories of swingers being fired from their jobs simply because it was discovered that they were involved in swinger night clubs.

You've been researching swinging for 15 years, but you never cite sources for any of your "stories". I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but it'd be nice to have something to reference your statements to. It would add credibility to these stories.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

So, you're saying you can't swing until it is a mainstream activity, or at least accepted by the mainstream of society?

That's quite a set of handcuffs (chastity belt?) you've placed on yourself.

 

Ironically, we would get a little less satisfaction out of swinging if it was accepted or practiced by the mainstream.

 

The consequences just outweigh the benefits. Suppose I want to work with children and I become exposed as a swinger. There are elementary and high school teachers who have been exposed for being swingers. Very often they are fired. I just do not have the mental fortitude to hide my lifestyle. I also do not have the mental fortitude to deal with the reaction of my family if I reveal my lifestyle. Perhaps secrecy is the best policy.

[AskMeOk 148]

....there are large segments of people in the heterosexual community who accept the gay lifestyle and find the swinging lifestyle a moral abomination.

 

Cite?

 

I think it is unfair to scapegoat only Christian fundamentalist. I have read many articles from atheists and agnostics who find swinging perverse.

 

1) Any citation that would support the notion that ANY Christian fundie group is anything else than vehemently opposed to swinging would help your

case...

 

2) Any citation that would explain, on what moral grounds, atheists and agnostics find swinging repugnant would help your case...

 

Many members of this board seem to find my view of debating and contesting the negative images of swingers as a weakness. I respect their opinion. However, suppose blacks simply were apathetic towards mainstream views of black man being sexually promiscuous. Is it a weakness or unhealthy when the black community challenges that perception? After all, why should blacks care what others think? I do understand that blacks are a group which is identified by their physical appearance and swingers are identified by their behavior. However, they are still sociological groups.

 

My head is swimming with all of the confusion in this paragraph. You would probably be well served by dropping any conclusions drawn between similarities and differences between a racial group and a group of folks, comprised of all races (including blacks), identified by a particular behavior.

 

My take is that most people on the board don't have a clue exactly WTF you are talking about. You have stated opinions that have some merit, but your debate is not cohesive nor strictly logical.

 

I understand many swingers feel the consequences of aggressively fighting the image of swingers is too great. Thus, they simply refuse to fight.

 

Cite?

 

Perhaps, the first item of business should be a description of the "swinger stereotype" and cites to support what that is. Once we have identified *what* people wrongly believe, we can address the *why* of those beliefs. Only when you know *what* and *why* something is going wrong can you address a cure... or hold a compelling argument.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

two4youinswva said:

Wow! It's like they were following some type of religious fundamentalism or something, huh?

 

You've been researching swinging for 15 years, but you never cite sources for any of your "stories". I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but it'd be nice to have something to reference your statements to. It would add credibility to these stories.

 

Hi Two,

 

I believe my choice of words are creating some misunderstanding. When I use the word "studies", I am referring to personal studies regarding swinging. I am not a college professor who has been writing a thesis on sexuality. Therefore, my practice is informal. I have read many college journals that confirm my viewpoints. I do not remember the specific books I have read because I have read a lot of them and I did not plan on writing an academic paper regarding swinging.

 

I have read and heard about swingers who were terminated because of their lifestyle. I do not know the percentage of frequency when this occurs. However, I do think it is reasonable to think that if mainstream society finds swinging morally perverse, this viewpoint could be influential in hiring and firing decisions. Even though the idea of loving the same sex is dominant in the gay and lesbian rights movement and swinging focuses on recreational sex, it still amazes me how swingers are not as intimidated by mainstream society. They either feel comfortable concealing their lifestyle or they feel comfortable coming out of the closet.

 

It seems to me that they are just wired differently than most people. Society finding their behavior revolting just does not bother them to the same degree it would bother gays and lesbians.

[DarkVoyuer 15]

Ask me ok, I am not a professor. I have read several books on the subject which confirm my view. I did not write these sources down because I never planned on writing a book that defended my viewpoint.

 

If you have several books that confirm a different view, please share it with it us. I will not require you to cite the source.

 

You said that most members have no idea on what I am talking about. Perhaps I am trying too hard to make my point. I was simply responding to a member of this board who did not understand why I cared about what others thought about the swinging lifestyle. I was simply trying to show that other minority groups do care what others think about them. Thus, I did not understand why swingers generally do not care what mainstream society thinks about them. Gays and lesbians do care about how they are portrayed in the media. Why do most swingers not care if they are negatively portrayed in the media? I hope this clears up some misunderstanding. If you have any questions, please let me know.

[TwoAreLooking 58]

I read most of this thread, then realized that reading the rest would make me feel defensive and be pointless.

 

VegasLee, you are a sane, sensible man. I want to come play in your playpen some day.

 

DarkVoyeur, your handle kinda says it all. Just saying.

 

That said: what other people think of me is none of my business.

 

We swing. We're cautious. We are joined at the hip by choice, not necessity. I don't feel a need to advertise or defend my personal life. OTOH, when it came up with a genuinely curious friend, I shared info that I'd learned in my own life and research. (it was about BDSM, but the same concept applies for me)

[DarkVoyuer 15]

I read most of this thread, then realized that reading the rest would make me feel defensive and be pointless.

 

VegasLee, you are a sane, sensible man. I want to come play in your playpen some day.

 

DarkVoyeur, your handle kinda says it all. Just saying.

 

That said: what other people think of me is none of my business.

 

We swing. We're cautious. We are joined at the hip by choice, not necessity. I don't feel a need to advertise or defend my personal life. OTOH, when it came up with a genuinely curious friend, I shared info that I'd learned in my own life and research. (it was about BDSM, but the same concept applies for me)

Hi TwoAreLooking,

 

After pondering this topic for a while, I am starting to understand why swingers lack emotion towards anti-swinging views. It is starting to make sense to me. I will just say this, you do not have to defend your lifestyle. Secondly, debating people is not worth it.

[AskMeOk 148]

After pondering this topic for a while, I am starting to understand why swingers lack emotion towards anti-swinging views. It is starting to make sense to me.

 

Since there is no stereotypical appearance for a swinger, most of us are able to stay under the radar and keep our lifestyle to ourselves, primarily because.....

 

I will just say this, you do not have to defend your lifestyle. Secondly, debating people is not worth it.

 

...trying to have a "debate" with somebody opposed to the lifestyle is really a process of trying to lead people to a logical conclusion that their belief structure is wrong...

 

....which is a lot like trying to teach a pig to dance. The only thing you will accomplish is to get really muddy and piss the pig off.

[VegasLee 1,486]

DarkVoyuer,

 

If you have spent much time in these forums there are many posts by me that explain, this Lifestyle is not for everyone. For many reasons.

 

One of the main ones is people that can not deal with what could happen to you if you are outed as a swinger.

 

I have been on the news, TV and Radio, my picture in the paper and ARRESTED all dealing with this Lifestyle. Got to stand in State and Federal Court a few times over all this. Yes, I am very OUT as you would state here.

 

Here is a funny thing for you. My Youngest daughter is 16. Her whole life she has gone to a Private Christian School. Guess what. Her dad has WORKS AT THE SCHOOL. I work there unpaid since I am retired full time.

 

Do I flaunt my lifestyle or talk about it there, nope, out of respect to the people there. Does my daughter know, YES. Do the Board of directors and the Admin know? If they don't then they have never seen a newspaper or TV news in this town in the last 15 years.

 

It is one of those deals that I respect their views and thoughts and act accordingly. They also have seen how I am with the kids at the school and I have been there longer then most everyone that is employed there. No one there would ever think of questioning how I treat the kids or what I would do with them or my Lifestyle.

 

It is about the person and respect. If you give them reason to dislike you or what you stand for, they will. If they get to know you and see who you are and you gain their respect, you have no problems.

 

Yes, there are people that will try to hurt you and out you all the time. That is the American way. People today don't like to see others happy and having a fulfilling life. Just how Americans are.

 

You don't have to be one of them unless you want to and you don't have to worry about them if you don't want to.

 

We found the best defense about being outed was to be out. The only thing in life that can hurt you is Lies!

 

As they say, The Truth Will Set You FREE!! I am a firm believer in that statement. I live by that statement.

 

You, as most have done your "study" from the out side. Most of the studies and books written in the last 20 years about this Lifestyle are from non-swingers that view it from the out side. They are all B.S.! Until you life the lifestyle you will never have any idea what it really is about. You have studied it based on your perceptions. (couples only as an example) Since you have never lived it you have no basis to base your information on.

 

Once again, this Lifestyle is NOT for most people in this country/world. I would never encourage anyone to get into it that has any second thoughts about their self, their relationship with others or concerned about what other people think of it. It is a personal thing. Kind of like believing in God, that is between you and him, no one else.

 

Good luck to you in your ventures in life. Hope you find the place in life that makes you happy.

[AskMeOk 148]

I consider it a misconception because it is fundamentally false. The sanctity of marriage intrinsically has nothing to do with sexual abstinence outside of marriage. Swinging couples who have been married over 50 years are very likely to disprove this myth. I understand that you are simply stating the mainstream view but the reasoning behind the mainstream view still does not make sense. It simply says that human beings refuse to think for themselves in some situations. I applaud you for being so understanding.

 

I am answering your question. There is no LOGICAL argument against swinging. One can make a MORAL argument against swinging, but where does that morality come from. In this day, time, and geographical location it is religious morality.

 

 

Frankly, I was a swinging couple I would not be as understanding or compassionate. This is why I can not consider swinging. Until, I can truly become compassionate and accepting of this indoctrination, I am not mentally ready to pursue behavior that is outside the bounds of mainstream society.

 

What an oppressed life you must lead! Do you really let "mainstream society" control your thoughts and behavior? You SO need to take ownership of your own life......